874 Leveraging a Competitive Spirit and Becoming an NBA Icon with Jerry West

This is episode number 874 with the NBA icon, Jerry West. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur, and each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Thomas Jefferson said, nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal. Nothing on Earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude. Welcome to today's interview and episode. I'm super excited about this because we have a legend, literally a living legend, Jerry West, who's one of the most successful and respected figures in the history of the NBA. And Jerry is a former professional player having played for the Lakers for 14 years while he established himself as one of the greatest players in NBA history. He currently serves as an executive board member for the Golden State Warriors and he owns a list of accomplishments as both a player and front office executive that is unmatched in league history. He's got eight NBA championships as a player, executive or special consultant to NBA executive of the Year Awards, 14 NBA star appearances, 10 first time all NBA selections inducted into the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame and was named to the NBA's 35th anniversary team in 1980. His jersey number 44 was retired by the Lakers in 1983 and in 2011 he had a statue outside the Staples Center in Los Angeles. And in this interview we talk about how Jerry's mindset differed from those he grew up with and how that set him on his path to success. coming from a very small town, and the power of trusting your instincts and how to find motivation to keep going no matter what challenge you're going through. We also talked about Jerry's biggest regret and the lessons he's learned from those around him. And he's been around some of the most inspiring people in the NBA and business and sports and beyond. How to build mental toughness and not let the pressure of success break you. And Jerry's powerful advice to those who don't know how to dream. This one will inspire you. Please share it with one friend that you want to help today, that you care about today. Send it to someone that you can support in their life, that they can be inspired by this and have a connection with that individual asking them what they got out of this as well.

Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness podcast. We have the iconic Jerry West in the house. Thank you so much for being here, sir. Appreciate you and congrats on everything in your life. We were joking just before about who am I? And I was thinking that I could start with some things we have in common. Since I'm much younger than you, you're much more successful and still better looking than me. We're both from the Midwest. I'm from Ohio, you're from West Virginia.

We're neighbors.

I don't know if you consider West Virginia Midwest, because that's Eastern kind of like time zone.

Well, that's not gonna make us closer, okay?

Right, right, right, exactly. But we're from probably a four-hour difference drive from the same type of people. We both played basketball. That's all we have in common. I played high school and college. I was never good enough like you to go pro, but that was my dream, was to be a professional basketball player. We both represent our country with a sport. I play with the USA handball team currently still. I was just down in Brazil a couple months ago. training with the USA team. You won the Olympics. I haven't made the Olympics, but I'm on the USA team, so all these things are much better than me. And the fourth thing we have in common is we both grew up very insecure, very insecure, unsure of ourselves, feeling very lonely, depressed, and not feeling like we got the acceptance or the love from the people we wanted it from the most. And that's something that I learned about you. that I was surprised about, but I felt the strongest connection to. And I heard in an interview that you talked about that really drove you to be the person you are today through sports, business, and throughout your career. And so, yeah, I just wanted to open with that. It's good to be connected.

Well, you know, as I say, all of us grow up in different circumstances. You know, some people grow up in really loving households where I'm not sure what the average American household is today certainly has changed because money is not worth as much as it used to be. And particularly in certain states, the cost of living, like in California, is enormous. So depending where you go up, but one of the things I really felt that growing up was that I think the affection you're shown when you're little if it comes from your family.

To.

Me it's almost an entitlement and something you should expect as a young child. I didn't see that. And so I grew up, number one, not wanting to go home. I didn't know what was going to face me. Number two, to depend on myself. That's the only one I could depend on. And number three, the dreams that I had would probably shock people. You know, how am I... I don't want to live my life like this. I don't. I was a fierce competitor even at a young age, mentally. The things that have driven me all my life were my dreams. And sometimes when you're little, you can make yourself... You don't want to go home and what you might see. You talk to yourself. I don't know how many times you talk to yourself when you were little. But I always was one of those people that was driven from an early age. You know, we had absolutely nothing. I grew up in tough circumstances, like a lot of people in West Virginia do. And I found that the most interesting thing to me, because I love fishing and I love the outdoors so much, that no one in my family liked to do it. And the solitary thing is where you do your best thing. Okay? Today, I'm a vociferous reader. and I read back, I read today about successful people and people I've admired who've been leaders. And I say to myself, they face some of the very same challenges that we did, but they were dreamers also. I had a chance to live my dream. I really did. And to think that someone from a place of 500 where, you know, your next door neighbors, you ran right through their backyard today, here, somebody A dog would bite you or somebody would shoot you, they'd catch you on camera. This tiny little community where people had very similar lifestyles. But there's one thing in common with those people. Everyone always said hello, how are you? I have always tried in my life to be nice to everyone. I don't place myself above anyone, nor would I ever do that in my life. I run away from any accolades that people might want to give me. Accord me because what I did with my life was really about competing. It was about the competition. And there's so many competitive people in this world today that they're hidden. They're in all walks of life, but they're hidden with an athlete. When somebody's really competitive, you can see it.

Yeah.

And normally the more competitive, the more skilled, the better results you're going to do, have. And so consequently, when people are watching from distance, they can see when people compete. When people don't compete, they're not going to choose their dreams.

Right.

Were there a lot of dreamers in that small town, or do you feel like you were the only one really trying to get out, really trying to.

Make something of yourself? I think they all wanted to be like their fathers, grew up working a coal mine. I didn't want to do that.

Not a dog. Why did you not want that when.

Everyone else seemed to want that? I've always been different. I don't know if that's a positive or a negative, but I have been different. And the things that excite me in life, I'll have was always about competition. As a player, as an executive, you're trying to do your best, not for you, but the people that are rooting for you.

And not let them down or.

Yes, you feel like, I think everything I did out in my life, even today with fear of failure, because you don't want to let people down. And when I was young, it seemed I was one always trying to please people to be, for them to look at me a little bit differently when obviously I had no self-esteem. I remember when I went to college, I said, I don't belong in college. I was a social misfit person. And it having been for the competitive desire to compete for the State University, which I love West Virginia. I love the people. certainly I couldn't have accomplished anything in my life.

Yeah.

Wow.

Why do you think you had such low self-esteem when you were an all-star and a competitor that was probably winning a lot in high school and college?

If someone tells you they love what you do or they love how you.

Play.

That doesn't enhance your self-esteem. You want somebody to feel deeply committed to you, okay? That is your friends, your family, and particularly your family. that just wasn't a part of my family. It was a daily struggle for survival. And it changes your thought pattern, particularly as you get older, because all of a sudden, you get your name in the paper and everyone thinks you're put you on this pedestal. Well, trust me, it's not very pretty when you're on top of a pedestal sometimes. It's not.

Especially if you don't believe in yourself or have self-worth.

Well, that's one part of it.

You're like, well, everyone sees me up here, but I see myself as worthless, right?

Well, I don't necessarily say worthless, but I could never understand why, because I was an athlete that people would think you're special, but they would think you're special when you lose. And I had one incident here in Los Angeles that probably, I think Beth sums it up. You know, we had been, I think, nine NBA finals as a player, and only one won. and we lost a game, we lost a final game in the NBA, not in the NBA, but in an NBA championship. And I would jog with a friend of mine and we were jogging on the west side of town down Salmon Street. You see a lot of people doing that, that run down the ocean and back. And this guy said to me, he was jogging, you guys choked again.

Oh man.

The first time in my life I think, honestly, I wanted to kill this person. Wow. No, kill him. And he wasn't very big, and I was a pretty good guy, and I have a mean streak. I never let it come out because I learned that from being a kid. I didn't want to, it's an ugly side of life. So it's one of the few times in my life when I really had to restrain myself. loyalty is another thing. I see the most disloyal people today involved in sports, petty jealousies, people who are looking for attention. I'm not talking about the athletes so much, has to do more with people in the front office. The idea of this whole thing, there's always a team. You're always a team. And let's say a player has passed his time to play. and you have to tell him goodbye. Do you know how I feel? It's the worst feeling in the world.

Horrible.

You know how it feels when you tell a player you're traded? Oh, it's God awful.

How many times do you have to do that?

A few times in my life. And people I really like. And I will say one thing, if I would ever pat myself on the back for anything about being in basketball, I can tell you there's never a player in my opinion that was ever underpaid. working at the different places I work. Never. Because I think it's wrong to underpay a player. But more importantly, I think it's wrong to overpay a player. All it does is create problems going forward. You need to pay the people who are doing the job, not to someone who's seeking attention. And some players seek attention, so they talk a lot, they get a lot of money, and this league is I think it was spent like a billion, $600,000, $600 million last year on 3A.

Wow. It's crazy.

It is crazy.

Do you ever feel like you learned how to build belief in yourself? Or was it more, I'm afraid to lose or afraid of judgment or afraid of letting people down? So I'm just driven by that as opposed to the belief in myself.

You know something? I honestly don't care if people dislike me at all. I don't. At one time I cared deeply, but I think when you're involved in making decision, people are so such a rapid, rabid boosters of teams that, you know, teams not having success, it's either you or the coach, okay? It probably shouldn't be the coach. It should probably be the person that's bringing the players in. There's been a lot of incredible coaches, but I will guarantee you if those coaches had been saddled with a bad lineup, they wouldn't have the record they would have today. But also, a part of that is if you didn't have the right coach for the right team, had a lot of talent, they won't go to be successful. But there's probably more people that are involved in the basketball at the executive level who are making executive decision, particularly on the the players life. They're probably the ones that should be looked at a little bit more seriously than the players themselves.

Yeah, for sure.

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I had Kobe on about a year ago and I asked him about how he became so successful in basketball. I asked him about, he said when he first started playing, I think he was a teenager, young teen, Maybe he was 12 or 13. He said he played in a summer league and he didn't score one point this whole summer.

And then, I'll tell you one thing, he shot a lot of shots.

Exactly. But he said his father at the time said he loved him no matter what, whether he scored or he didn't. He loved him no matter what. And he said that was part of the freedom that gave him to go out and be fearless because he knew he would have that love, whether he failed or missed shots or made shots. And that's what he said, at least, that it gave him the freedom and the courage to go out and play all out. And then the next year, he really started to blossom. Do you feel like, I'm getting the sense of you that you didn't have, your father probably didn't show much affection or love, if anything, it was-- Never.

Saw me play a basketball.

Never saw you play ever. Even if you were a state champion.

I would not let him go to any game, particularly when I had risen to a certain level in high school, when I was the best player in the state. and we won the state championship and getting all these scholarship offers from everywhere, along with a lot of cash inducements. And, you know, when my father made $450 a month to thank you, you're gonna make three times that in inducements. It was very tempting, but it didn't tempt me. I went where I got nothing at West Virginia University. Absolutely nothing. But no, I never felt that connection, no.

Did you feel like if you would have received the love, the attention, or the support from him or your family that you would have been a different player, better or worse?

No.

No. No.

I think there's certain instances in my life that probably spurred me to never, never give up in my quest to make something different in my life. I did not know about basketball when I picked it up. would be of that vehicle. But what was different in the whole thing was, is that just because I was such a dreamer. Oh my gosh. The dreams I would have, I could make myself be the greatest player in the world. I could be the, you know, I could make every last second shot. And, you know, I had a nickname Mr. Clutch which Chick Hearn gave me. Mr. Clutch did it again or whatever it was. I used to think it was pretty funny. And some of the writers would ask me, you know, why does this seem not to bother you? Number one, I've never been afraid to fail. Because in my life, there's times I have felt like I've been a failure. I said I did that probably a million times when I was a kid. Last second shot, I would put today you have a little tenth of a second. And I would put those, and we did not have that then. and I would close my eyes 15 foot from a basket. We didn't have a three-point line. Close my eyes and say 1001, 1002, 1003, and shoot the ball. I could miss it when I was a kid 10 damn times. I was a coach, the referee and the announcer. Referee, I'd find a way to put time back on the shot clock. The referee would say, you know, somebody tipped it or something.

Right, right. It's a foul.

No, no foul. No foul was always, It wasn't about free throws, it was about making the shot. And so this was this mind game. And, you know, when I got to the point where I'd realized I'd made some progress because I was so little, I could see myself getting better. I didn't have anyone to go home and talk to it about. But I just, it's just quest to be something that was different because basketball wasn't even popular where I grew up. It was football and baseball. And my high school team had, powerhouse baseball teams and saw and football team. I saw myself grow. I saw myself be, you know, 6'3 at that time and I grew to 6'4, almost 6'4 and I saw myself getting better. And it was, that's an amazing feeling but still knowing that there's more there.

Yeah.

You just knew there was more there because I basically taught myself how to do it. copied people that I thought were, again, high school players. So whatever fit into my scheme of things in life then, I would try to emulate it and copy it. But as I say, the thing that probably made me was an incident in my life. I had a brother killed in Korea when I just turned 13.

In the war, right?

Yes, in the Korean War. I became this very aggressive kid to one who was like someone who never spoke. And as I mentioned earlier, when I went to college, I never said a word. I was really, really, really quiet. And that's why I didn't even feel like I belonged in college. And when I went there, I actually left school and I wasn't gonna, I was gonna quit school. I didn't belong, I've been in school.

And not play basketball in school? Yeah, really.

Yeah.

But there was one incident that started, you know, we had a pro, you couldn't play as a freshman in college. And so we had an undefeated freshman team and we used to play the varsity team, which was fourth ranked team in the country. And we would beat them a lot more than they would ever beat us. Wow.

And they wouldn't put you on the varsity.

So the coach started playing, dividing the the freshmen away from the seniors and juniors and sophomores. Then you started to see yourself. I think you start to build a little bit of confidence. But again, this wasn't something that happened overnight. It was like trying to get to the top of the mountain. And when I got to be a junior, I was top of the mountain. And when I got to be a senior, I was top of the mountain. And as I say, sometimes the view up there is not very pretty.

Why is it not pretty for you?

Well, you just feel so much more, you feel so much more pressure on yourself. Because I wasn't competing for me. I hated publicity. I hated it. I just wanted to win for the people in the state. And I know that might sound kind of folksy or whatever, but that's all that ever mattered to me. ever. And in my life, I've been the very same person. I like competition. Even today, I like competition. And when somebody says, no, that you can't do something, no always meant yes to me. Always meant yes. But you have to get to a point in life where you feel a little bit more confident about your ability to do things or maybe see things that other people don't see. And I just have always trusted myself. I've always trusted my judgment. As I say, I read a lot, okay? I read a lot. And Malcolm Gladwell is someone I really admire a great deal. And the Peter Principle, okay? I found that to be more true than people will ever realize. What's that? People to move one seat. and they have no ability to see the bigger picture. But the one probably was the most memorable to me when he was talking about trusting your own instincts, okay? I've trusted my instincts all my life. Sure, I've made mistakes. And I admit them, by the way, some people won't. I will admit mistakes. And it's, he's been kind of an inspirational writer to me, reading about really famous people. Winston Churchill, I so greatly admire him, his ability to lead. I probably read 25 books on him. Franklin Delano Roosevelt, probably 20 books on him. I just read a book the other night, Edward Snowden, fascinating book. But I like to learn, and I don't think you're ever too old to learn, and I think maybe one of the things that keeps me viable and the ability to communicate is the fact I do enjoy learning. When I went to school, I did just enough to get by.

Me too. Just enough to pass.

Well, and but if you read this book by Edward Snowden, he'd figured out to an art, and they thought he was autistic or couldn't remember anything. They tested him. He was like off of the charts. Smart. Fascinating.

What are the three books you'd recommend to young people who want to learn about life and success and overcoming challenges?

Well, life is always full of challenges. Every day there's a different challenge, and particularly when you're younger or not at this age in my life. And I think the ultimate challenge always has to be in sports. And I'm not trying to avoid your question.

Yeah, for sure.

But, you know, these people who write self-help books, to me at times, I read them and I laugh. And I'll tell you why I laugh, because they're copying each other. And people talk about motivational things, okay? You have to find something inside of you that motivates you. You have to have something. And someone can sit there and talk to you until you're blue in the face. If you don't look in a mirror and say, I've got a chain, but I've got to face something. Let's say a kid has been raised in the worst of circumstances, okay? And he's been given an opportunity by someone who puts his hand on his shoulder and says, Hey, look, I'm gonna help you get here. I'll guarantee that kid might, if he is really dedicated, he might get there faster than somebody who's grown up in a maybe fantasy background. There's so many really wealthy people here in Los Angeles. I kind of feel sorry for their kids. I really do, because they never face challenges.

They don't have the hunger, the drive, the challenge.

Well, they don't have that. they've never had to work for anything in their lives. And I think the one thing in many families like that, you see a lot of affection, a lot of giving, a lot of, you know, the, I guess the little things in life that everyone who doesn't have them would like to have. Hungry people come from everywhere. They come from everywhere. And I see some of the really, really bright people that absolutely love sports that will leave very great paying jobs and come work for a lot of success because they like the competition. This world is about competition. But how do you find your niche in life? And, you know, I look at the schools today and I kind of laugh at myself. They're giving all these degrees in sports management. I don't know how many graduate. There's not that many people that can get a job. I know. They're not. And I almost feel today that you could have any kind of degree, any kind of degree, unless you were really focusing looking at science, architectural things like that.

Medical or yeah.

Medical things like that. Many people never use their degree.

Yeah, I was a sports management major. Well, I'm not working in sports.

You know why? There's not that many opportunities. And to get there, you have to kiss a lot of people's feet, okay? And sometimes that doesn't work. But there's an unbelievable level of excitement around sports. There really is, truly is. And that, you can feel that competitiveness, particularly day of the game, you can really feel it. And it's the most electric feeling in your life, Somebody says, why do you sit around and do this all the time? That is the most sensitive area for me. That, that, that little feeling. I mean, it's stupid. But I knew in a basketball game when I could really feel that little special thing, it was going to be a great night for me individually. And hopefully that would help drive a team to win. But there's just little things about competition and Parents need, and I think that because I've been married twice to have five sons, when I'm in a very difficult time for kids to grow up in the drug era. And now today, which is a completely different era, and the pressures that those kids faced in was peer pressure. Today it's not nearly that. It's about the ability to go out and say, hey look, I need us to do something different in my life. and I think one of the things I know some enormously wealthy people, their kids do not want to be involved in that business. I think it's a tribute to the parents, to those kids, they'll never have to work a day in their lives. But it's a tribute to them to want to do something, and a lot of them do humanitarian things, which I think is really fantastic. But to try to give someone books that I've read, read about leaders, Lincoln, Washington, Martin Luther King, Desmond Tutu, Rosa Parks, these people who truly have made a difference in the world. And those are the people that I get inspiration from because they didn't have the money. They had to go through some of the most ridiculous things that human beings had to do. Complete insult to their integrity to the races, to the masses that they were trying to help. That's where I get my inspiration. And last but not least, giving. I think that's my, you know, I don't know how many years I have to live, that's what I want to do. Find a way to help make people, young kids in particular, kids from West Virginia who, from Southern Coal Fields, which is not much in existence anymore, for anything other than athletes. So they can go to West Virginia and get an education. That's been a charity of my choice.

That's cool, that's cool. What do you think are some ways that young people can build confidence? If they have no confidence, they're completely insecure, they doubt themselves constantly, what are some things they can do on a daily basis to build that belief?

That's probably one of the toughest ones. try to find a way to get around someone or somebody you admire, okay? Try to find personal information about them, but you must have a specific interest. I don't care if it's digging a ditch, okay? A lot of ways to dig a ditch, but to dig a straight one, it takes a lot of hard work and a lot of people care about how it's done, okay? Some people want to get by the easy way, and I always, there's to me, there's three different kind of people in this world, fighters, flow ers and fleers, okay? A friend of mine told me this one time, a fighter is the one you want to be associated with, okay? Put a fleer with him, he's gonna fail immediately. Put a fighter with him, oh, I mean a floater with him, he's gonna do great because the fighter is gonna do all the work, okay? And so he attaches himself to him, everyone's patting, oh my God, you've done a good job. he might have done nothing except have the ability to communicate with people. But you put a fighter, I mean a floater and a fleer together, it's a disaster. And so birds of a feather flock together, okay? Get together with people who are really giving and want to help. And if you can't tell when people are sincere, listen, I've had something here recently in my life where where I probably had the greatest disappointment in my life.

Really?

Yes.

Was it a professional or personal thing?

Well, as I say, I'm not gonna get into it.

But it was the greatest disappointment of your life.

Yes.

Recently.

Okay. Because dedication you give in your life to people is really, really important. And you know, to have someone to, whether it's a friend or something, if something one says something derogatory, I don't care. Please say it to me, okay? Don't deceive me. You shouldn't deceive people. You should not. And these are the lessons I've learned in my life. I've learned them later in my life where you don't expect them. They come, it's like somebody punches you in your face and you say, what's this all about?

But there's some- I knew it all, yeah.

Listen, there's some people out there that you don't want to associate yourself with. There are a lot of them. Get to know the people that really care and the people that are honest. and the people that want you to do well in life. And sometimes people choose the wrong one. And it will take them years and they might waste years of their life and say, oh my God, why didn't I recognize this earlier in my life?

Yeah.

So be around people to really build that belief, build that confidence, that are real.

And in my world, there's a lot of people that are not real. Yeah. And there's some, you know, people talk about writers and everything. And they have writers. who come to give a story of a game, you know, and it's changed. Now every night is like the review on a Broadway stage, okay? Every night. In a season, and particularly a basketball season or baseball season, one of them is a triathlon and one of them is a marathon. And we're getting ready to start the marathon, okay?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so people are going to judge teams early in the year. Don't judge them earlier in the year. Judge them as the season goes long. And the writers who do that, the writers have changed, okay? They've changed a lot. The pundits have changed today. You turn on the TV sometime, you sit there and say to yourself, they've got a guy who plays for another team who's got two years for free agency and they're already trying to get him traded. I mean, he's going to go somewhere else. I think that's disgraceful, in my own opinion. But I respect everyone in the news media. I don't care if they say, I've had people say awful things about me and they'll call me the next day. I won't even mention what they said. I will not mention it. It's their prerogative to do that. Because I think life is about balance and if everyone every day told you how great you were, that's not true. regardless of what you're doing in life, okay? Regardless. But to me, balance in life, and I had someone to send me a seal one time with a ball on its nose, okay?

A seal?

Seal. With this ball on its nose, the balancing. Sure. Okay? And I tried to figure this out, because I called this person and says, this is what life is, it's about balance. Think of all the great things people have said about you, and all the derogatory things people said about me. rarely was there anything derogatory said about me as a player. But as an executive, yes. Okay? And I said to myself, he's right. He's absolutely right. Balance is the key to life. And if you think by, you can work yourself to death and it will be self-defeating. I see people that work so much, you start to say to yourself, this is not productive. this is not productive because you're constantly second guessing yourself. And you need to have some other interest, and particularly in the sporting world, where during the season, you're never going to get a relief. Okay? I watch almost every game on television, believe it or not. Really?

Yeah.

Almost every game.

Every game in the NBA?

Yeah.

You watch them all?

I try to watch them all. Wow. It's hard to do when you're in a three-hour game, but you can start watching them at here in Los Angeles at four o'clock in the afternoon and change around quarters, half time. You're taking notes.

You're a student of the game at the highest level.

Yes, it's part of what you do. And you can't, listen, you cannot deceive the public or you cannot deceive the people you work with unless you're well read on the subject or up on the subject that you're involved with. I don't care, forget sports. Forget sports. Yeah, it applies to every walk of life.

Yeah.

Wow.

I'm curious about who the most influential person was for you growing up and what was the lesson that stood out to you the most that they gave you.

Oh my gosh. Maybe no one. Maybe no one. Really?

No.

You didn't have a parent or a mentor or a friend or Coach or teacher?

No. I think people I met when I went to college, that's when I started to realize that there were some people that really cared about you. Okay. How you were doing personally, not the basketball part.

How are you feeling?

Well, there was a lady that I spent time with. I lived in her house. She was a pharmacist. Her name was Andonardi. And when she passed away, there's Jerry West and Donardi Scholarship Fund at West Virginia, one of the few I have there. She was very meaningful for me, but she really cared about how I was doing and she knew I was an awkward, backward person who did not fit into that surrounding. She knew how fragile I was in the sense that I didn't fit in. And her Some of the nasty names she used to call me, oh my gosh, I used to say to myself, you know, it sounds like a men's locker room, okay? But she was an amazing person. She cared after me like my mother, but she was one who I always looked forward to seeing her every day, because I lived in her house.

What was the lesson she taught you?

Everything was unequivocal with her. Okay. It was her affection to me was regardless.

Yeah.

If we lost a basketball game, we never lost a game. My years in West Virginia at home. Never lost one game.

Wow.

At home. Yeah. No, not one game.

And.

But, you know, we would. We've had really extraordinary teams on a lot of games, and. But regardless of where we won or lost, she was always the same. and some days you go in the locker room and you lose a particularly tough game and you have teammates over there looking around that the guy is supposed to deliver the goods and he doesn't deliver them every night. You could just tell, but she at early age when I was 18 years old, she actually got me to come back to school. And her care, her affection, with something truly that was, I didn't know it was around. I did not know it was around because I was so nondescript. And there was one guy in my life who's still my best friend, someone I would, God forbid, if he'd ever pass away, named Willie Akers. He and I were- We're still friends today. Yes, we were players on the same team. And we were tied at the hip. He was very much like me, much more social. and he really kind of, you know, I never went on a vacation in my life, okay? Never owned a car. And he would, I'll never forget when we were freshmen, he lived in southern part of the state and I lived near the state capitol in Charleston. And he used to come and pick me up, like it was almost like he was my chauffeur, but he was my friend. And the care and attention, there wasn't a day that went by in college that we didn't do something together, not one day. and he has always been very meaningful to me in my life. But there's a lot of other people, I tell you one person I greatly admired, he was my Olympic coach, Pete Newell, greatly admired him for the kind of person he was, and more importantly, for some reason he took a liking to me. And it was a difficult process to make the make the Olympic team. Yeah. All amateurs and they used to have an AAU tournament was in Denver. And I'll never forget the first night, an amateur team had never even won a college all-star team and never won a game. Not one game. Wow. Because you're playing against all these AAU teams, the Army, I mean, the Navy teams, there was a bunch of teams in because there's no money in it and they would get some of the best players in America. because they had an opportunity to go on and have a position with these respective companies. And the first night we played, I think I played, I think I had like nine points and everyone judges the game today on nine points. And that was a small part of my career. The other thing, defensively, was probably early on the best part of my thing, I mean, the best part of my game at that point in time. And he, I called, and we won pretty handily. But if that team won, they had to select seven players. That team won. And I think the next night we beat another very good team fairly handily. And I had like 25 that night, a bunch of rebounds and steals. And I felt I played better, but I still was concerned that was I going to be selected? They were going to select five other people on other teams to represent the country for the Olympic game. And so then last night, I think I scored 38 points and had a huge game and we win the tournament. Now they have to select seven, have to select seven. I didn't know if I was gonna get selected. I did not. And I was one of the starters and I played a lot of bench.

Wow.

But I was so afraid that I was not gonna be and that was gonna be to me, maybe the greatest achievement I could ever have. It was very nationalistic in America then. You had the Cold War, the Berlin Wall, racism at its very worst. Everything negative was going on.

And.

Just a chance to represent your country, that was important to me. But he called me about 1:00 or 1:30 in the morning and said, you, made it. And I said, Pete, I said, I didn't know if I was going to make it. He said, Are you kidding me? And I said, no, I'm not kidding you. I said, I didn't think I was going to make it. So it was one of the biggest thrills I'd ever had in my life. And then to have a chance to never, let's say, never been anywhere in my life to go to Europe of all places and to be in Rome. And I love history. Okay, so. But we had like a, we wanted to win. And of course, the Russians then had a you know, that was supposedly the biggest game. But we just trampled the opposition, okay? Trampled the opposition. And he had one of the greatest pep talks the last game, okay? And they did everything was on the point system. And we played Brazil in the finals, okay? He said in the locker room before the game, he says, if you guys lose this game by 72 points, he says, you,'re not gonna win the gold medal. and you know you're sitting there thinking 72 points. Well, I think we beat them 68 points. But the thrilling part of it was when Oscar Robinson, who I greatly admire, love him like a brother, had enormous respect. Our careers really paralleled each other. He and I received the gold medal for the whole squad. And when they played the national anthem, I sat there. I wish that every person could know what my body felt like. And I hope somewhere along the way that there's something that will give you that feeling, regardless of who it is. But I sit there and all I could think about was my brother. He never saw me play. I think he'd be pretty proud of this moment.

That's beautiful. There's something about, you know, I told you I played with the USA national team for handball. I've been to Spain and played there and Israel and the UK and Puerto Rico and South America and Canada and played. And every time I'm in a tournament with the USA team, we play the national anthem before the game. Each team plays. It's always the greatest feeling to wear USA across the chest and hear the anthem. And I feel like I almost know what that feeling is that you had. I wasn't. I've never won the medal in the Olympics, but I still get that. that feeling of, man, all the years of dedication and commitment and hard work and injury and sacrifice to be here to experience it. Just that moment is very powerful.

It is powerful, but again, I would say probably the only difference that you would feel, because everything that was going on in the world, it was scary. It was really scary.

I can imagine.

And as I say, I so wanted my brother. He would have been so proud of me. He and I were closer to him than anyone in my family.

How old were you when he passed?

I was 13. He was 20.

Do you remember the last thing you said with him or talked to him about?

I couldn't repeat it on this telecast. I was really little and he was getting ready to go into the service.

And.

He was playing some basketball with his friends and they were playing and they wouldn't let me play.

He said some things. Mean things.

I said something to him, that profanity. He threw the basketball and hit me in the stomach. And I'll never forget this today and kind of knocked the wind out of me. And I said to him, I said, you know, one of these days I'm gonna be the greatest player to ever play.

Wow.

Not knowing that I would even become a good player. Wow. When I was little. I'll never forget that day. Wow. That was the last fall day. It was a fall day. I'll never forget it. But he couldn't have caught me anyways. I was the fastest person around. No one would catch him. What would you imagine, by the way, he was deeply religious. And that's why the profanity was... Sure.

A bad thing for him.

Yeah.

What would you have said to him if he was able to watch you in that gold medal ceremony and watch the final game and watch the Olympics? What would you have said to him if you had the opportunity to talk to him?

To him then. I would probably said to him, thank you for really caring about me growing up in a very difficult house. I have a lot of old letters from him to this day, and they were written during the Korean War. And in reading these letters, they had to be brief because of all the stuff that was going on. I read those letters and I can just see his face. I can see his face. And I read him probably a couple times a year, right beside my bed in a little box there.

Wow. What does his face remind you of? What qualities?

Very handsome guy, as I say, very religious, extraordinarily religious. He would just do anything. He was so kind, would do anything for people.

That's nice to have a big brother like that.

It is. But I say, I learned my lesson from him. I tried to emulate him except for being religious. I can't be religious because I used to say to myself all the time, I said, my God, how could he get killed above all the people? Someone like him, you would think he'd be bulletproof, but that's not the way this worked. Yeah.

How's your relationship with religion or God? been since that happened?

Very spiritual, but I haven't really accepted going to church maybe for Christmas or something. For some sad things. I don't go to church anymore. I'm not, to say, I'm really, really spiritual. I do believe in karma. And I think some of the things I've done in my life, I'm not proud of. He wouldn't have been proud of them. But I'll say I learned a lot from him growing up.

Yeah.

That short period of time that I was around him.

Do you have any big regrets?

I'll have a lot of regrets in life. A lot of regrets. I think when I was playing for the Lakers, probably the biggest regret that I played for an owner who deceived me twice in contract talks. We didn't have agents. and told me a lie, I wish I could have been a free agent. I wouldn't have ended my career here. Really? No way, because I don't want you to lie to me. Please tell me the truth, okay?

Yeah, let you make a better decision based on the facts.

Yeah, just tell me the truth, whatever it is. I don't care if it hurts, tell me the truth.

Yeah.

Is it yes and a no? But there's always, there's something about being involved with people who are less than honest, It doesn't seem fair when, if you're a team player, it doesn't seem fair. And some people are, some people just can't help themselves. They can't help themselves.

What was the greatest lesson your dad taught you? Whether he directly taught you or his lack of teaching or lack of doing something, what was that thing that he said?

Through my dad? Yeah.

Whether I'm not going to be this way, this is something that, you know, I learned that was positive or that was negative, that I'm going to do differently. What was that?

I only learned negative, okay?

Yeah.

I only learned negative. And some days, you know, sometimes in your life, you, I wish I'd had a relationship with him. That wasn't to be. It bothers my, my surviving two sisters bothers them that I talk about it. They don't think I should. To me, it's been cleansing to do it.

Healing, huh?

And you would be surprised how many people who come from certain circumstances where they have seen similar things, it scars you. There's no question it scars you. But it does make you tougher. It does make you tougher. And people always talk toughness about physicality. No, that's not what it is.

Emotional, mental, tough.

Yes, absolutely. And as I say, I've seen a lot in my life. I have learned more by watching people who are less than honest, who are deceptive. I don't dislike them, but that's who they are. I don't dislike, there's people I would rather I don't hate anyone. I don't hate anyone. I have great respect for people that sometimes I don't appreciate. Great respect for what they've done in life. But I do like people that are candid, whether it's positive or negative toward me. I like people, I don't like someone to beat around the bush. Be positive. Just tell me the truth.

Sure.

How do you think someone can build mental toughness without having to go through Some type of exercise.

Are they building? It's pretty simple. Be honest with yourself. Be honest with other people. Many people, and I've seen it everywhere, they want you to tell them what they want to hear, okay? If they ask you a leading question, say not to be offensive, this is what I see. This is what I see. You want my opinion. If you're gonna get mad, it's your own fault.

Don't be asking questions.

Don't ask me the question. But I do think you should be honest.

Yeah.

And I think today, I think today it's, this world has so changed, you know, social media, you know, everyone knowing everything about you. There's something about having privacy that that's important. Okay. It's harder for everyone to have it.

Yeah.

You know, I see people who get so enamored with people and all walks of life that had some success. And I'm not necessarily sure I do that. I don't.

You're not enamored with people?

No.

No, I'm enamored with what kind of person they are. Are they nice?

The quality of their character.

Yes. Yeah. Well, it's what they present to you. Some of the people that I'm friendly.

With.

I call them I call them my misfit friends because I fit in with them. Do we see each other every day? No. No, we don't. But there's something about them being so different and me being so different that I find enjoyable to be around. As I say, I root for people. I really root for people. For people who have passion to accomplish something in life. but if you can't, somewhere along the way you have to say to yourself, you know, I really want to do this, but I can't do it. I'm not cut out to do this. I'm not going to get an opportunity. So you have to be, and again, in today's world, you really, really have to be flexible enough and also articulate enough and wide red enough to be able to move from one field to the next. and I get letters from kids, calls from kids, kids who come up, I want to get involved in basketball. I said, first of all, you know how many kids that talk to me about that? A lot. So there's a lot of competition, number one. But it's just really about networking. Make yourself a pest to someone.

I'll pest.

I'll never forget, I'll never forget a guy who may be the best, if not the best, he's one of the best PR directors in the league. His name is Raymond Ritter. He worked for the San Francisco Warriors. Raymond was trying like crazy to get involved in the PR business, okay? And he even sent a bouquet of flowers. And I'm laughing at myself and I said, oh my goodness. But anyway, to you, he said- well, no, well, basically to John Black, who was a PR director then to the Lakers. unfortunately, he's not there today. Remember when they had that huge Northridge earthquake? He was there like 2:30 in the morning working, okay? And that big earthquake happened. He crawled under the desk, okay? And I said, Raymond, I used to kid him all the time about it. And now he is one of the most respected PR guys in the world because he is so dedicated and so loyal. and so hard working, but above all, he is not changed. He's the same person, great person. Great person.

So be a pest. Be a pest.

Be a pest. That's right. If you're a little kid, be a pest. Yeah, exactly. Right. They'll get tired of you and they'll have, pretty soon they'll keep communicating with you some way. If there's any kind of person they will. Right. Sure.

Do you have any big fears or insecurities at this stage of your life? You've been through a lot, you've achieved, you've seen so much.

No, I say this, you know, golden years, I don't think I'll ever have any golden years in my life because that's not who I am. I guess, regardless of what the future holds for me, I still have one thing I'd like to do. I'd really like to help a lot more people.

In what ways?

Well, because I think back in time, and I mentioned one lady earlier to you, Andi Nardi, There's always some kind of an angel out there if you can affix yourself to them, and particularly if you're young and struggling, and you have no self-confidence that is willing to put a hand around you and give you a hug when it might be foreign to you. And she was that one person who made me feel really special. I felt unbelievably special around her. And It probably, number one, it kept me in school, I know. And find a friend for life. That's it going to accept you for who you are, not going to try to change your idiosyncrasies. And we all have them, and I have more than most. And get people to accept who you are, your frailties, your bad habits, But always, I want to thank their goodness to everyone. I do. And some people need to look in the mirror when they get up every morning. I do this every morning. I used to do this all the time, not as much anymore. I used to get up, look in the mirror and say, what am I looking at? What am I looking at? And this was when everyone was, when you're having successes, I've always doubted myself. But I've never doubted my work ethic and my loyalty to the people I'm working with. Again, I'm going to use that word loyalty because there are a lot of people in this world that are not loyal and they know who I'm talking about.

What did you see in the mirror when you would see yourself?

That was the hard part. That was the hard part. Because, and then days you get up, you say to yourself, what am I going to do today? It might be in the heat of trying to make a trade or something, you know, God, this feels awful to trade a player, but this could be a franchise changing event. And we had two or three of those here when we were in Los Angeles. And working with Jerry Buss was just fantastic, just fantastic. He encouraged me, saw something in me that very few people whatever think you could go from an athlete to being an executive. And there's a lot of great things that happened here, a lot of great things. And everyone wants to give me the credit.

No.

It belongs to a collective group today, then rather a very small group. And Jerry pretty much trusted me and allowed me to make decisions always with his consultation. I think those days have changed, by the way. Yeah.

I've heard you say the word dreams a lot. You were a big dreamer. You thought differently. You thought differently about yourself, where you wanted to go. I felt that a lot as a kid. I came from a small town in Delaware, Ohio, probably about 20,000 people when I was growing up, where my parents didn't even lock the doors in the home at night. Probably a similar feeling. I don't know if you guys lock.

The doors at your home. No, heck no. Well, there's nothing to take anyway. Right, exactly.

I always remember feeling like there was something more for me. There was something more than this small town and this insecurity that I was feeling. And I had big dreams. But for those that don't know how to dream bigger or how to dream in a different way, what advice would you give to them? If they don't know what their dream is, how can they start thinking differently, bigger, in a unique way? What's a problem?

What's, you know, not so much this point in time in my life. but I say, I'm not a great sleeper. Yeah. I have a pencil and a piece of paper beside my bed. You'd be surprised at some of the things I write down. And they're just a constant reminder, you know, how I can make myself better, even at this point in my life. But more importantly, how can I help someone else? How can I help someone achieve their dream? It's a lot easier when you're making When you have the ability to make decisions instead of being an advisor like I am today, it's a lot easier to do it then. And please don't take yourself so seriously. My God, this world is filled with that today. You know something? You need people, regardless of what you're doing in your life, you need people kind of like yourself. People that encourage you. to get you to continue to follow what you're doing, how can you get better? What do you learn from every interview you do? Every person that you talk to has a different story to tell. A different background they come from. They could be minorities. They could be immigrants from, you know, or immigrants are minorities. They have a different story to tell, but I'll guarantee you that if you could get them to talk about the most intimate details, their dreams to get to America. And once they got here, they followed their dream and they achieved a lot. And they're cornerstone to this incredible country we live in. But some people are reluctant to talk about it. Some people like to talk about themselves way too much. Talk about people you admire. Talk about people you care about. you know, how can I make a little bit of difference in someone's life? Okay? There's two or three people I work with that I learned more when I was working from the Lakers, working with three ladies. Okay? I always used to hear about how dumb I was and how, I can't believe you do this, I can't believe you do that. I love those women. I love those women.

Why did you love that?

Well, It was because I realized that in a male-dominated world, which sports were, and these people were working for the Lakers, I learned more from them than from just thinking that, you know, there's more to life than just trying to organize a basketball team. There's another side to life. And honestly, I would prefer working with women sometimes more than men. men because I think there's something about them. They see things that men don't because men are so competitive. And when you're competitive, it's like two bulls ramming heads sometime.

Right.

And not for domination, not for domination, but varying opinions. But these women were all completely different. I used to do things for them that and particularly to them in particular, that it was, I'd get letters from them, you know, I'd send them vacations, you know, and anywhere they wanted to go. That's how much I valued them. I would never let them spend a penny because I appreciated what they contributed, their growth in me, going from being a player where you're really concentrating on yourself every day in terms of preparing yourself for a game, and then getting to a game and you're associated with all these people who are trying to focus on winning, I learn more from them than probably anyone I've ever worked with.

That's cool.

It's, you know, today I'm working with maybe the most unique owner I've ever been around, Steve Ballmer. He's an amazing man. He really is. His enthusiasm for winning, but his philanthropic ways are incredible. Never seeks attention to himself. He's gonna be an owner that whoever gets an opportunity to work for him going forward is gonna be thrilled with him. He's just that special. He recently gave $100 million to the city of Inglewood. Wow. Obviously, we're trying to get a arena built over there. But in other things, in the city, eyeglasses for children, all the backpacks, all the different things, refurbishing recreation centers. He's just so civic minded and he doesn't live here. Wow.

Where does he live?

He lives in Seattle and he's lived there for years. But he and his wife are two of the most philanthropic people. You would never know if you're around him the enormous financial success he's had in his life.

He is down to earth.

Oh my gosh. He's a pleasure to be around.

That's great.

It kind of reminds me of Jerry Buss a little bit. He's a man of the people and Jerry didn't have his wealth, but Jerry was the same kind of person. And you know, he will never lose his way in life. He will never be a remarkable man.

That's cool. Well, hopefully I'll come in again this year. Couple of final questions for you. This has been powerful, so thank you for opening up. This question is called the Three Truths. I asked this at the end of every interview. So I'd like you to imagine that it's your last day on earth many, many years from now. And you get to pick the day. It can be 100 years, 200 years, or as long as you want to be around, but eventually it's the last day. And you continue to achieve all the dreams that you have. You've achieved so much already, but you go on and achieving greater things. But for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your accomplishments with you and all of your work with you, all of your books and interviews that have been out there, it's all got to go with you. So no one has access to these conversations or your materials anymore. But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world, three things you know to be true, from all of your experiences as a kid growing up in West Virginia to college, to Lakers, to coaching, to working in the front office, to everything that you're going to do. And you get to share three lessons with all of us.

Well, I think if I could see, obviously it would be probably to people that are younger, not older. Okay. It would all, this would always be number one, be a dreamer. Mm-. Hard work is a skill. Hard work is a skill. Find something you like to do and you'll never work a day in your life. Mm.

Those are great. I love those. I want to acknowledge you, Jerry, for a moment, for your continual dreamer's mindset, for your continual learning mindset, the fact that you're always reading, learning, wanting to learn from people, from books, from anything you can get your hands on. And you want to contribute in a big way. I love your heart about wanting to always give back and help younger people and be a giver. So I want to acknowledge you for everything you've created in your highlights of your career, but also how you want to be in service so much. I think that's the greatest talent you have now is probably bigger than the awards and the medals is that you want to be in so I really acknowledge you for that mindset.

You know, I appreciate that, but honestly, I really don't even think about my career. I don't. You know, people have had some pretty incredible things happen to me as an athlete and personal things, a lot of personal disappointments, not being able to win more championships. I don't really think about those things anymore. That's not who I am at all. I don't even I don't even really dwell on it. I think if you forget, if you forget the, if you forget that part of your life and concentrate on how to make this a better world, how to concentrate on making, make it better for people, find out that there's no difference in any of us, regardless of what race we are. We're all the same. We all want the same. We don't all look the same. But there's a unique opportunity to learn about people if you cared about people. If you don't isolate people from maybe your walk of life. This is a fascinating, wonderful world.

Because.

Of the diversity of it. And some people are afraid of diversity. I'm not.

Yeah, that's good. Is there anywhere we can follow you online or anything we can support of yours?

No, I don't have any social media. I don't believe in it. Who would want to hear from someone like me? That's how I look at it.

I do. My audience does. So is there a website or is there a book?

No.

You've got a book that people could buy.

Yeah, but it's written. It was on the bestseller list. It's really, it's called West by West: My Charm Tormented Life. It's really a story about my life, not so much about the basketball part of it, but the things I saw in my life and how it dictated what I became and my frailties in life, the things that have been sometimes bitter when I was a kid that I had to face. It was a hard book to write.

Yeah.

And probably very unfair to my father that he didn't have a chance to answer the question before he passed away.

Yeah.

But again, I think by writing that it was cleansing in some respect, but I will tell you how many letters I've got from people who have shared the same experience and felt this loss of self-esteem and how they seem to find a niche for themselves in this way. because they were dreamers. They could picture themselves in some kind of other environment that was important to them. I think everyone in this country idolizes success. A measure of a person is not about how much money they have, not at all. And I find that that I say, I've met a lot of people in my life, probably a lot of people that other people would want to meet. Some of them are fantastically successful. Some have been incredible leaders of this country. And I really found, I find that almost all of them have one unique thing. They do care. They care. They do care. They're really good ones. They do care. Yeah. And they do give.

Yeah, that's powerful. My final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

My definition of greatness is someone who is consistently produced at every level, but has not forgotten along the way who they are. Greatness can be defined by in all worlds, okay? I admire people who can write because it's everlasting. Music, the people who write is everlasting. If you could do something in this world that is written, that will stand the test of time. And trust me, athletes, regardless of what era they're from, they will be remembered for their greatness. But a hundred years from now, those written words will never be forgotten. Like a great painting, those will never be forgotten. Great deeds will never be forgotten. You go see in Washington, D.C. some of the incredible things that they have over there. in these museums. There's a new museum. It's about Black history that is pretty chilling. And to see that, and I grew up, I was raised, I grew up in 1938, to see how people were enslaved. It's embarrassing for me to see how something like that can happen.

Yeah.

And it's encapsulated there in Washington, D.C. At one time, I don't think a black athlete could have ever gotten any endorsements. Is there a white athlete today is relevant? I don't think so. And that to me says a lot about this country. Athletes have made a huge difference. in the racial injustice and to see them the most popular people in all of sports today and how powerful they become makes me feel really good.

That's powerful. I appreciate you coming on.

Thank you so much.

Thanks, man. Appreciate it.

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