875 Speak With Your Heart and Create a Big Life with Cleo Wade

This is episode number 875 with best selling author Cleo Waid. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur and each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Rumi said, your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it. Welcome to this episode. I'm very excited. I started learning about Cleo Wade on Instagram and just was really attracted to her message, her poetry and and the energy she put out into the world. And if you don't know who Cleo is, she's a poet, a writer, activist, artist and the author of the best selling book Heart Talk Poetic Wisdom for a Better Life. She's been named one of America's 50 most influential women by Marie Claire, 100 most creative people in Business by Fast Company and the millennial Oprah by New York Magazine. Her new book, where to Begin, a small book about your power to create big change in our crazy world, is out right now and available wherever books are sold. And in this interview we really dive in about the first steps to healing deep inner wounds and how you can start to process them yourself. The importance of intimately understanding your belief system and how it can guide you through challenging times. Clio's top ingredients and non negotiables for living a big life A magnetic life, the powerful distinction and relationship between self love and self care and Cleo's thoughts on toxic masculinity and what we can do to understand it better. That and so much more. I'm pumped. And if you're pumped, make sure to share this out with one friend today. You can text a friend by copying and pasting the link on Apple podcast or Spotify or just use the link lewishouse.com 875 and share this with one or two friends right now. Say you want to learn what they think about this episode if it supports them in their life. And hold someone accountable and hold them high through sharing this powerful wisdom that Cleo talks about during this A warm dinner, a full table, a peace of mind for every family. That's the holiday we all wish for. The Feeding America Network helps make it possible not just for one family, but but for communities everywhere. Because when we act together, hope grows. Give now and your impact may be doubled. Visit feedingamerica.org holiday the Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid has a bold design, a spacious interior with 232 horsepower and a 12.3-inch panoramic display to keep the adventure going and fit with the way you live. 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Podcast and share us your thoughts.

And without further ado, let me introduce to you the one and only Cleo Wade.

Why do we stay in situations, whether it be a relationship or a career or whatever, why do we continue to do something? Whether it's a healthy eating, lifestyle, choices, why do we continue to do something for so long That's a slow no. As opposed to just quickly deciding, like after a few months. This isn't working for me. This isn't working out. I don't want to weigh the pros and cons anymore. It should just be like, yes or no. Why do we stew over this for so long?

Yeah, but I think it's because a, we don't have the practice of seeing of action that honors our path and our journey. Right. So what we were talking about earlier is like, you know, the bravery to speak up instead of stew in something. But we've. But it's mostly because we've just cultivated a habit of stewing in things or sitting and swallowing our words rather than speaking up. And what does it look like to just create a new habit that says every time I think that something's wrong, I'm gonna say, think that that's wrong. If something hurts my feelings, I'm gonna tell the person it hurts my feelings. And we just don't have a lot of that role modeled in our culture. Most of us didn't have a lot of that role modeled in our family lives. I mean, I think we're all much more familiar with passive aggression than we are with active emotional expression. And so I think that we have to create the template that the next generation can inherit of what the best possible habits look like for us to have well lived emotional lives.

So what's that template? Or what are those habits? What are like the core habits? You think that everyone, if we started doing these things, a few things, it would make our lives that much better?

You know, there's this poem in my new book, where to Begin, where I basically wrote that I was like, everything's a habit. So whether that's listening, not listening, loving well, loving badly, gratitude, ingratitude. And then at the end of the poem, it says, which of these habits are worthy of this life that you most certainly get to live only once? And in that, I think we know what the best habits are. I think we know that loving well and listening and being grateful and being respectful and seeing people. I think we know that those are the habits that build a peaceful life and a peaceful world. And I think that what ends up happening is kind of what we were talking about earlier. Things happen in our lives. These things happen that create unhealings within us or traumas within us. And what does it look like for us to heal those wounds so we can close those wounds? And that doesn't mean the scar isn't there and that we don't have to maybe still be gentle in how we move through the world, because the injury still shows itself. But it does mean that those wounds are not getting in the way of us developing the habits that we deserve to have in our life.

Wow. How do we start to heal a wound? If we feel like we're so broken or it's such a traumatic experience, or it's so painful, how do we start to heal something that's so deep and painful?

You know, I think the first thing that everyone. I hate the word should because I always say don't. Should all over each other or never should all over yourself. But I think that the first thing I would encourage every single person to do is know that you deserve your healing. So if you can wake up in the morning and say, what am I gonna do with this one big life and how am I gonna get there? And what do I know that just because I'm here, because I'm a living, breathing human organism in this time, and I am not an accident, what do I deserve? And I think if you can put healing on the top of that list, I deserve to heal my wounds. I deserve to move through this world as a healed person. Not just for my own journey, but because healed people heal people. Just like hurt people, hurt people. You know, we always hear the phrase hurt people, hurt people, but we never add to the phrase that healed people, heal people. And so even if I'm having trouble understanding how to know that I deserve my healing, I'm sure I can at least try to wrap my head around knowing that my children deserve my healing or the person I love deserves my healing as well. And so I think that to know that we deserve it and then to say okay, and then I think that our healing starts to tell us what it needs from us. So I think when we say I deserve this, I honestly think the parts of you that you'd silence for so long with the I don't deserve this. I'm not worthy of this. I couldn't possibly have this. I think when that chatter disappears, a new chatter arises within us. That's like, you know what? First, like, you might want to make that phone call. Second of all, like, you might want to take that space for yourself. Third of all, you know, maybe just stay in tonight and take a bath and have some time to yourself.

Don't over commit to everything, right?

Or maybe it's time to ask for help on this. And I think that we can prescribe a lot of our healing or at least ignite a kind of yellow brick road that leads us to the tools and the spaces and the places that can cultivate our healing.

Wow.

So the first thing that you think, how do we get to a place of deserving and feeling worthy? Is it first step, heal from the past or heal from the pain in order to feel worthy? Or can you feel worthy and lovable and deserving if you haven't healed the past?

I think that we have to first say, I deserve this, so I'm gonna do it. I deserve this, so I'm gonna put all of the work into it that it's going to take and I'm going to change my life so that I can have this. Because, you know, we don't. We live with the past. You know, I don't know that we just reconcile it and it stays there. I think that it is something that stays with us and it either drives us or we can tell it where its place in the car is and we drive it. And so I think that it's. That's a way that we take control. And I think that even if you have to fake it till you make it by starting to just say, you know, I work with mantras a lot, obviously. And so even if for me, I might have. The mantra might be there before the belief system's there, but the mantra might drive the belief system, right? So, you know, sometimes if I'm having trouble with something like self forgiveness, right? Which is one of my favorite definitions of regret is someone said it was. Regret is just when you are focusing too much on decisions you made while you were still learning. And even if and whenever I have, you know, struggles with, like, you know, regret or self forgiveness or like, I can't believe I thought that 5 years ago. I can't believe I said that 2 years ago. I can't believe I didn't do XYZ when I was this age or that age, I'll have a mantra that I use all the time, which is, if you are grateful for where you are, you have to respect the road that got you there. And respect is a really interesting space because I didn't say like, the road that got you there. I didn't say appreciate the road you got there. I didn't say anything. I didn't try to lawnmower over the hard parts that informed a lot of the decision making of our past, right? I was like, respect it. Because respect does not mean you agree with it. Respect does not mean that you're rooting for it or championing it. But it is saying that, like, you're here and I'm here and I'm gonna just hold space for you to exist in the world and do what it is you do. And I'm not gonna dismiss you and I'm not try to cover you up and I'm not going to try to invalidate you or pretend that you're, or try to, you know, be delusional enough to think you're not important.

Yeah.

And so I think that when it comes to self worth or self love or our ability to feel deserving of our healing or the lives that we have the potential to have, I think we have to kind of, you know, if you, if you're not, if your head's not in that space yet. I do think developing the mantra that is like, you know, as simple as waking up every day and saying I am deserving of my healing and saying that every day for 100 days until you believe it. And I'd love to talk to the person who could do that for 30 days and it wouldn't impact some way of how they're rewiring what they think they are and are not deserving of.

Yeah. You talked about self forgiveness. Is that something you practice often? Do you feel like you make a mistake and you have to do it over and over or is it a one time thing and you're forgiving yourself of everything in the past or daily actions?

One of my girlfriends then said to me, I asked her how she practiced self care and she said, I practice self care through self forgiveness. Because she said if I can forgive myself for who I was two minutes ago, two years ago or 20 years ago, then I can even get to the bottom of what I need to take care of myself in this moment. And so I think that self forgiveness is something that's ongoing and is a series of check in points. Right. So I think that you'll sit there and be like, oh, I thought that I got really far in the self forgiveness part of this thing. But oh, I see I still have some lingering, triggering thoughts there. So I need to forgive myself in those spaces too. Or you know what, like we were talking about just our triggers in general. You know, something new could trigger in us something old that we have, you know, kind of forgiven ourselves for. But that doesn't mean that it again, it stops existing. Just like our past. Right. We live with our past, we don't. It doesn't get to just be in a drawer over there.

Right? Right.

You talked about big life a couple times. If you could bake a pie that was called big life. What would be the ingredients that you would throw in for us to. To be able to actually make the cake rise or the pie rise and everything come together? What needs to be in there? What's a non negotiable for a big life?

I think that it's different for every person, but I do think that it's really allowing for yourself to have your.

Dreams and not just allowing yourself to have your dreams.

Yeah, because I mean, I mean, think about how many of us have a dream as a child and then bury it for 20 years. I mean, I did that with poetry, right. I went to poetry summer camp when I was 6 or 7. And then I didn't start writing a poem again until I was in my 20s. And now I get to do that for a living. But if I had to really reflect and have in therapy and being in community with my friends and my partner, I'm like, that was always my dream. It's just that I buried the dream because I didn't think that I was worthy of the dream or I didn't think the dream was possible because no one was telling me how to achieve it. Because I didn't even think that I was capable of carving out the space for the dream. And so I think that for anyone to have a big life, I don't even think you have to dream big by any means. But I do think you have to know that no matter what the dream is, small, medium, big, whatever size it is, whatever it may be, you deserve that. And then to be in that space of saying, I'm going to allow for what I dream of and what my imagination tells me, this is possible in this world, to be a driving force for how I move through this world. Then I think you start cultivating all the things you need for your own pie. And I just can't wait to sit at the table with you and your pie.

You talked about how when people stop stuffing their emotions or how they feel, that's when they can start to really move forward in their life in a more powerful way. My current girlfriend does an amazing job of telling me in any moment she doesn't like something, how she feels.

That's amazing.

And at first I was like, whoa, this is like a lot. Just because she just said it so quick, right? I don't like this.

I don't like this. I like this.

And at first I was taken back, but now I'm like, I really like this because she says it and she moves on.

But you're Midwesterner I'm a Southerner. It's the same thing. We just, like, we have just grown up in our blood history in a way of being like, yeah, that's nice. Okay. And then we. It's a. It's. There's so much of that that can be so cultural, too. I mean, when we were talking about that, I was like, yeah, you know, we've seen passive aggress whole lives, and we've never.

Silent treatment or Silent.

Yeah, but how often did we just see, like, pure, guttural, but still kind and respectful emotional expression? I have no memories of seeing that combination of emotional expression happen regularly, ever in my. My childhood or, like, it's sad because I feel like.

I don't want to generalize this, but I feel like for the most of the men that I grew up with in the Midwest and I traveled around, I played sports in a lot of different teams in different states in the Midwest. There were very few men who would actually sit down with you and say, I'm going through something challenging right now. Like, this is. I'm really struggling with my body image. I'm struggling with my relationship. I'm struggling with my insecurities. We really didn't have those conversations. And a lot of that lack of emotional ability to communicate, I feel like, creates a lot of the anger and the explosions that you see in the world over the last. You know, forever. But over the last few years, it's becoming more obviously public. And for me, it's just sad that we've never been given the tools, really. I wish they taught these tools in the classroom, but they don't. They teach. Can you imagine if school taught you about, like, healing, forgiveness, emotional intelligence at all?

Yeah.

Incredible. If we learned how to deal with the humiliation of failing a test or being bullied, if we learned how to deal with those things as opposed to how to memorize, it'd be incredible with how people could heal moving forward, so.

Or how to. Like, why failing a test doesn't deserve humiliation in the first place.

Yeah.

But we also come from these environments that inherently teach us emotional unintelligence. Right. Because that's incredibly emotionally unintelligent to feel humiliated by failing a test. Because as we know from being adults in the real world, you never really win or you lose. You either win or you learn, and that's it. And then all of these spaces where we attach embarrassment or humiliation around failing is a delusion. It's just not real. Because anytime you've gained information that will help you to navigate your path you've won. And so it doesn't matter what if it's the critics have slammed something or the company didn't work out the way you thought it would or whatever it is. All of those things are what built the toolkit that allows for you to keep going.

Yeah, I always say failure is just feedback. It's information that helps you move forward.

Exactly.

In the next part of your life. You work a lot with women and young women and you inspire a lot of women through your work and your message.

And.

I'm curious, in your mind, with all the work you've done with women, what is the thing that for women that don't believe in themselves, what is the thing that holds them back from actually having belief, self belief?

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That they are capable of their dreams or the right relationship or the right career. What is the thing that holds them back from believing in themselves more?

I think it's actually the things that hold us back or hold us up are our belief systems. Right. So if you have an opinion about something, right. That is new. If that golf course just went up and you were like, it's so beautiful and the trees are so amazing. And that's my opinion of it. And I came in here and was just like, well, you know, actually all the fertilizer they used for that is da da da, da, da da. And I had a whole, you know, environmental argument for why this is so bad for the planet, which I don't have. I know nothing about golf courses.

Sure, sure.

I get. Probably sway your opinion a lot because perhaps you didn't spend a lot of time, you know, yours is just like, oh, I saw it, I thought it was nice.

Right, right.

If I came to you and I gave you 30 data points on like why it is bad, I'd probably be able to sway your opinion. Sure, right. Your belief system. I could spend three days with you trying to shake down your belief system. So your belief system being I'm not worthy of love, I'm not worthy of real love, I'm not worthy of good love. That would take me to sway or put even a dent in. That would take me as long as it took you to build that belief system in the first place. Right. And that's why I say that our belief systems either hold us back or hold us up. And so I think that first we have to decipher, you know, what's an opinion and what is actually something in my belief system. Right. So I remember once, this is like 10 years ago, I had this probably horrible guy I was dating and one of my best girlfriend, Sade said to me I was, you know, and as we have in those relationships where you just go back and forth and the ones that are really, I always say it's the ones that almost are reminiscent of how someone's like addicted to a substance. If you have that kind of push and roller coaster and talking, not talking like restricting yourself of the person or the thing, you know, going, whatever. And I was saying to her about, saying something to her about, you know, but I just like, you know, really still in a view with this person who was treating me horribly.

Yeah.

And she said to me at one point, she goes, you know, Cleo, like, she goes, there's a part of you that believes you belong with this person who doesn't treat you right. She goes, so stop trying to think. Because I said to her, I was like, but I don't want to be. But I just feel obsessed with trying to be in this relationship. And I don't know what it is. And I'm sitting here being 20. I was like, oh, it's a soul connection. I was like, I have this connection that's deeper than logic. That's what I'm sitting here thinking. And she was like, you don't have a connection that's deeper than logic. She's like, you're trying to solve the wrong problem. She was like, your belief system says I don't deserve a love that's treating you well or, or I couldn't be happy if I wasn't with this person. That's what you need to work on. She goes, you don't need to work on how do I get over feeling this way about this guy or trying to be in this relationship or not? She goes, she's like, work on where your belief system is failing you. And so a lot of the times, whether I get to talk to young women, young girls, young boys, men, I was like, what is your belief system doing for you? Does your belief system hold you back from your dreams and healthy relationships and healthy living and feeling powerful in this world? Or does your belief system hold you up and say that whether those things manifest or show themselves today, tomorrow or yesterday, I believe in my power to have them. I believe in my capabilities.

So the belief system is something that holds us up or holds us back. How does someone start to overcome self doubt? Is it do they have to like map out all their belief systems and start analyzing it or what's like a process for eliminating self doubt so we can make better decisions that are quick yeses as opposed to long no's?

Yeah. You know, I think that we have to have a practice. Right. You know, I think that people are always like the question probably get the most people will be like just like a quick question like how did you like get to self love or like how do you like find self care? And I was like, I don't have self love and I don't have self care.

Yes.

And so in that I spend, I have enough intimacy with myself to listen to. Okay, what goes into that? And what I always say about self care and self love is that, you know, if self love says I love you, self care says prove it. So self care is how we prove how much we love ourselves.

Interesting. So tell me a practice for like a week that might be a self care practice for you that proves that you love yourself. What's some of the things you do say?

My mantra for the week is I love myself more than my anxiety.

Prove it.

Prove it. Right? So I sit down on the plane, I start having the full anxiety of like, whether I, I don't know why I always say this. I'm like, it's like, you always want to cry in the plane. You always want to have like anxiety in the plane. And why, like, even if you don't, the fear of flying, like. And so I. Anxiety starts to creep in, right? Anxiety comes in the form of negative self chatter that is overwhelming. Right. And so what is the kind of self care mantra for those moments? How do I show my self care in moments of self attack, anxiety and stress? Right. And so first I remember my first mantra, right? Which is that I love myself more than my anxiety. And then in giving myself care in those moments, I say, okay, I love myself more than my anxiety. So I'm going to breathe through this. I love myself more than my anxiety. So I'm going to remember that this is not me, this is something passing through me so it can go out the same door it came in.

Wow.

And if I need to say that to myself over and over again until these feelings that are overwhelming me start to lessen, I'll sit and do that. Or if I, how do I show myself here? I'm going to call Simon, my fiance, and say, you know, I'm having these feelings, I'm having these thoughts. I obviously know they're not true. And I think if I can talk it out in this moment, it will.

Help as opposed to stuffing it.

Exactly. And so, and if for other people the care could look different, Right? If it means that like, oh, I've got to take my medicine for that, or oh, I've got to take, you know, I have one of my mentees, I always give out these kind of lavender balms because I always carry them in my bag. So in case I ever have anxiety somewhere, I'll put a little lavender oil in my hand, I'll rub it together, and I'll take five deep breaths. And I always tell the young girls in my life, I'm like, if you have just one small ritual in your bag with you at all times, it's a way to gift yourself care. Then you're just that much closer to feeling a little bit better about whatever it is that's ailing you, I don't care what it is. But if you can at least know how to take five breaths to yourself as a gift, then like, you're way ahead of the curve on self care in any other way, shape or form. Because we also have to recognize that Self care can't always cost a million dollars. Right, right, right.

You're doing massages every day and trips to Hawaii.

Exactly. Like self care is a deep breath. Self care might be organizing your finances. Self care might be a walk.

Self care cleaning out your closet.

Self care might be one thought, you know, that just says, this is what mothering is going to look like today. And so. And that's okay. And so self care might be, this was enough today. And so I think that in those moments, for me, by no surprise, because of my work, I obviously mostly work with words and how I think that they have the power to create these belief systems and create these connective moments of self care and self love. And they're just really easy to practice on the go. So I find that working with words are so helpful because you can always, you know, you can keep a little mantra in your bag or in your wallet or wherever, and you can always turn to it. It's always free. It's always there, it's always accessible.

Yeah. What's the biggest trauma or pain that you've had to overcome in your life that took the longest amount of time to start to overcome?

You know, I think that growing up in my childhood, you know, my parents divorced when I was 6, and I just grew up around so much substance abuse in different forms from pretty much all of my family members. And I really got to see the way that. I got to see the way that we learned to cope so early on with the toxic behavior that that creates. And so, I mean, I used to think that, like, I haven't had anything really horrible happen to me. And I remember once my therapist was like, no, you literally just built such a high tolerance. You have such a high tolerance for the pain that can occur in life. He's like, because you had to be your own therapist as a child and you had to be the mom, Be your own mom, and you had to learn to show up for yourself and self soothe in those ways that he's like, that is just how you cope and how you move. And so it's always hard for me to kind of pinpoint one exacting moment because I think that in my own journey, I'm still really getting to the bottom of it, you know. And I was saying one day to. I remember having this, like, really amazing breakthrough where, because one of the things, like, I don't really get like, angry or I actually, I get angry, but I don't show anger or like, admit anger really readily. And so I remember one day going through A breakup. And I had gone on this long walk with my friend Liza. It was so interesting. We, like when, you know, you lived in New York, so we walked from the East Village, across the, like, Brooklyn Bridge to go have lunch, all the way through Brooklyn to the Williamsburg Bridge back. It was the longest. It was like a pilgrimage.

That's an experience.

Yeah. And afterwards, I think it was such a physical exertion that I. When I got home, I was like, yeah, I'm actually pissed about the way I got treated in that relationship. Like, whereas I really rationalized why everyone did their best in the relationship, which sometimes you just do because you're so therapized too. Right? You're able to be like, you understand why and how everyone gets to their decision making space, so compassionate for everyone. And then all of a sudden you're just like, yeah, but I still have to feel these things along the way. And I remember when I was in therapy that week, I said to my therapist, I was like, you know, I was like, I didn't realize that, you know, because I grew up with an explosive family. I grew up with a family that loses their temper really easily. And I. I felt even at an early age that it was unhealthy to speak or talk to someone in that way or in that tone or with those words. And I was so sensitive to it. And I really never wanted to be that way. Right. Which is really interesting now to think about that. I use words for a living to create peace and calm. And I said to my therapist, I was like, you know, what I realized is that I hid anger or the idea of, like, how anger manifests for so long that it started hiding from me back. And so I was like, I actually, it's not that I don't want to be angry now or see the value in anger, because I do think anger, especially in women, is important. But I couldn't find it.

You couldn't get angry.

It was just hiding right back. I'd hid it for so long that it was. It was used to playing hide. It was used to me hide. Exactly. It was used to playing hide and seek. Right. So it was used to saying like, no, no, no, I hide from you.

So you don't get angry right now.

Yeah, so no. So now I'm actually, like getting really good at it.

You're like screaming like, I don't like you.

Yeah, no, but now I'll just be. I'm a little bit more. And I actually think it's from having so many young teenagers in my Life. It's really interesting because when you. To anyone who's never mentored or had young people in their life, that's not their blood relatives, if there's anything you want to do that's just as beautiful for you as it is for another person, it's certainly that. Because they are so in such a place where everything is so simple that I swear I get some of, like, the best advice ever. Because they're so. They're so plain about everything. So if you, you know, they'll say something. They'll be like. They're like, yeah, we're just like, not into her because she's fake. And I'll be like, no, but sometimes we as people, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they're like, yeah, but it's just fake, right? And one of the girls that I'm close with said to me one day, she was like. I was saying something about. I was like, yeah. I was like, you know, it's hard because she's asking me about someone in my life. And I was like, you know, it's hard to have some friends that you feel like just aren't that happy for you, and you just wonder why they're not happy for you and you're happy. And she goes, oh. She goes, fake love is the worst. She goes, fake love is worse than no love at all.

Wow.

And I remember being like, but those words are all so simple. And so what's really been amazing is I think actually having the influence of these young girls in my life because they're like, this makes me mad. This is. They call everything what it is. And that has actually helped me so much to be like, yeah, I'm pissed about that. And it's as simple as that. And that doesn't mean that I'm going to live pissed about it forever or that I'm. And I don't have to be afraid of being an angry person, or I can still have anger without displaying it in a way that's unhealthy or disrespectful of another person. Which I think was my fear as growing up was that I never saw anger expressed in a way that was healthy. And so, you know, just like, boys are never allowed to express emotions in ways that are healthy. Right. So when you're saying earlier, I'm, you know, we can't say, like, this, I'm feeling weird about this, or my body image this, or da, da, da. You don't have that.

It's not acceptable.

It's unacceptable. I mean, it's probably becoming more acceptable now, and I'm assuming there's some cultivation in families, hopefully. But I think if boys had that. I'm not making an excuse for men who have lashed out in negative ways. And I could probably say 99% of a lot of those guys who hurt people probably didn't have the space to express their feelings. And so that becomes the next way to express through anger.

There's this in where to Begin. There's this section of essays in the back that I wrote, and one of them I called on John Lewis's work, and he was saying that whenever they would in the civil rights movement, prepare to go to a march or prepare to go to anything, and he was like, you know, he's like, I would. And if someone spit on them or was disrespectful of them or violent towards them, he goes, how we would remain in nonviolence is to always imagine them as a baby.

Oh, wow.

And he was like. Because if you can imagine someone as a baby, he goes, then you can start to be like, well, what happened? Did the environment go wrong? Did the influences go wrong? And then he said, and then what does it look like to never give up on another human being? Oh, it's really like, if there's any one part of my book you should read, it's that essay. So good. And I always think about that when it comes to toxic masculinity, because before there was masculinity, there was boyhood, Right? So if we can be like, where was this person in their boyhood? And then what happened? Like, what. What were all the times where I said, don't cry. Don't be this, and all those things.

Act like a man.

Don't be a little girl.

Don't be a wuss or whatever. Yeah.

Meanwhile, if a young girl is crying, she's like, let it out, or do you need to talk about it? And then for young boys, we say, get it together. And so of course, we're going to sit here and approach them with completely different emotional landscapes. Right? So one of the things I always think is fascinating is when we're younger, and if a young girl is dating, if she's a freshman and she's dating a sophomore, they'll be like, well, of course she can do that, because girls are more mature. Why? There's nothing genetic. Listen, like, men biologically might have bigger bodies or whatever. So there's plenty of arguments you can make for why men and women are different. Right. Because they are physically. Right. Maturity is not one of those things. There's not a certain amount of part of a woman's brain that is more apt to be mature than a man's. Why do we cultivate that women are more mature than men? And in that, we're telling men that they don't have to be mature by a certain age, and we're telling women that they have to overcompensate for men, which allows for them to stay in that space. And so there's so much unhelpful storytelling in how we raise kids, in the narratives we give them. And I think that if we can actually heal the storytelling for boys and girls, then boys will just have the spaces to have those conversations and have a practice of having them have a practice of healthy, emotional.

It's funny.

Yeah.

When I went on. I wrote a book about masculine vulnerability a couple years ago, and when I went on my tour, I would ask the onyxes, usually about 50% women would come, 50% men would come. And I would ask everyone, I would say, if you're a woman in the room, raise your hand. If once a week you get together with another female friend and talk about body issues, work, challenges, insecurities, fears, uncertainties of the future, you know, challenges with friends. And almost every girl would raise their hand, like, at least once a week.

And I go, keep your hand up.

If you do this every day at lunch with your girlfriends, and almost everyone had their hand up, I said, okay. For all the guys in the room, raise your hand. If once a month you meet with at least one guy friend and talk about your body issue, challenges, your insecurities, your fears, your relationship challenges, your stuff at work.

And in a real way, like, I know men who will talk about. They won't talk about body image, but they'll have a weight loss challenge with a group of friends. And they're like, competition. Yeah. And they turn into a competition. That's actually the only way that they can feel that it's appropriate for them to express what they're feeling about their own bodies.

Right? Yeah. And I would ask men, and I was like, if you do this once a month, and maybe two or three guys out of hundreds would raise their hand, and I'd be like, you part of a church men's group that plans this once a month? It's like a planned time to do this. And most of them were like, yes, like a church group. And so for me, it's like, imagine as a woman, never talking about your feelings, never having a girlfriend to call on and Say, I'm really going through some challenge right now. Do you have a moment never saying how you truly feel about a relationship? Body issues, insecurities, vulnerabilities, sharing your shame. Imagine your whole life never being able to talk about it. And I'm not saying, like, it's people's responsibilities to share this with other people, but. And I try to reflect that back on the women. They're like, I would want to kill myself. I'm like, imagine how men, a lot of these men who do harmful things in the world, not every guy, but imagine the amount of internal pain they feel because they're lashing out in these ways, whether it be sexual abuse or shootings or marches, whatever it be in a negative way. Like, imagine the pain. Again, I'm not justifying anyone, but when we can change the narrative and the story, like you said, for young boys and young girls to grow up in a different way, I feel like there's going to be so much more love and healing and communication and peace to just be able to talk about these things with one guy, friend, a couple buddies. Not like having a beer, watching the game, doing a fitness challenge, but really talk. I think it would be a game changer. So I'm trying to create the opportunity and the facilitation for more men to do that because I think it'll be really helpful for everyone.

One.

Yeah. And I think that if men are their most honest with themselves, they want that. They want it, you know, so how do we, starving for it, say that what you want, you deserve, and what you want is something that is right. How do we say to somebody, like, yeah, you're right. Like, think about. Even when someone's like, you know, I'm from New Orleans. And so, like, something that's just like a street turn has been like, yeah, you're right. And like, it's such. It's just like an external validation. You're just like, yeah, like. Like, look at her. Yeah, you're right. Like, and to just say to someone, like, you're right. This way you're feeling is like. Is right. Like going after, exploring why you feel that way and what has gone on in your life that has built these things in you is right. If we can give that to men, I think that the sky's the limit for all of the ways that we can dismantle. Not even just what emotionally blocks us between genders, but politically, socially, economically, like, you know, gender and gender and race. It manifests in everything.

Yeah, yeah, I hear you. This is powerful. I got a couple questions left for you. Okay, tell me this one is called the Three Truths. I ask everyone at the end this question Question so imagine it's many years away from now.

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But it's your last day on earth. You get to pick the day you're 500 years old, 100 years old doesn't matter. But it's the last day depending on the technology, right?

Exactly.

And you have achieved every dream that you personally want, Right? You've lived your life fulfilled. You've got the family, the relationships You've done the work that brings you a lot of joy and fulfillment. You've impacted people. You've done everything you can do. Just imagine. But for whatever reason, you gotta take everything you've created with you. All of your body of work, your books, your content, everything that people have access to. Your words they no longer have access to. But you get to leave behind a piece of paper and a pen to write down three final truths. Of all the lessons you've learned from childhood to 150 years old, from being a mom to a daughter to a mentor, a leader, a creator. But you can only leave three lessons behind to the world. What would those truths be for you?

Golly. I think one of them would probably be what you're worried about usually isn't worrying about you.

That's a good one.

I think the second one would be, you deserve your healing. And I think the third one would be. I think the third truth would be more of a question. And it's actually this. I love this so much. I made it the last poem of where to Begin. It's the last page of the book, and it says, if all of your dreams came true, would they just change you or would they change the world? Dream bigger and wider and deeper. And so I think that, you know, how deep and wide and big are you willing to go with what you have to bring to not just your life, but our world?

That's big. Those are great. I don't think I've heard that combination, so those are powerful.

Thank you.

Thanks. You've got a book out right now?

Yes.

Where can they get the book? And what will the book provide for people when they dive in?

My new book is called where to Begin, and I really specifically made this book for the exact moment we're living in. I did not think I'd write a book this year. I mean, Heart Talk just came out last year. As you know from writing a book.

It'S a lot of work.

It's hell.

It's a lot of work. I'm working on the third one right now.

It's a lot. It's energy. It feels never ending. And it's one of those processes where it's weird because don't you feel like when you're writing a book, you suddenly go from being like, I feel like I live in the space where it's 20% done for 80% of the time, and then all of a sudden it's like, there's only 5% left, but you feel like it's never going to be finished for almost the entire time you're working on it. And then all of a sudden you wake up and you're like, wow, there's only this one chunk left. And so I really didn't think I was going to write a book this year at all. And when I was on my tour last year, between doing, I tour two and three times a year mostly to do community building, create community building spaces. And the one thing that people kept saying to me at every freaking stop was like, when they'd ask me a question, they'd be like, how are you dealing with anxiety? Or how do you deal with the news? Or how do you deal with the rear politically? And at the end of every sentence they would say, especially now or especially during these times. And I'd heard it so much that I was like, I think I have to write something first, especially during these times. And so that's where I actually put my mantra for anxiety in this book. I put this kind of one long form poem I have called where to Begin in this book, which is just about being able to know that you deserve a moment to have calm and replenishment, but to do it in a way that allows for you to also get back into the world, not hide from the world. And so this book is. I say that this book is like a resting place when the news and the impeachments or the, or all of the things in our world that feel like the kind of like partisan political commentary is just stressing you out or overwhelming you, or you literally just feel like you're going crazy. This book is kind of a resting place that's going to allow you the space to claim your calm, feel okay, feel a kind of a fundamental sense of okayness, and then encourage you to still be a part of getting to our solutions. Because we do need all of us. And you can get it literally wherever you buy a book. Walmart, Target, Amazon, any local bookseller.

Amazing.

Yeah, it's funny, I had Marianne Williamson on and she like, she was like. I told her, I was like, I feel a lot at peace because I don't watch the news.

Yeah.

And she's like, you need to watch the news. You need to know everything that's going on. I was like, I don't know if.

I agree with that.

I was like, I can understand what's happening, someone can tell me. But just like you said, like listening or watching someone on TV talk about all this stress, it's not gonna bring you peace by watching it over and over again, by being upset constantly. So I love that you're helping people create communities, create healing, create peace.

But also one of the things that I wrote about in this book is a media diet. And what does it look like a.

Social media diet and the all media.

So what does it look like to have a media diet that is in favor of your mental health and emotional health? And I think that a big part of that is understanding the difference between news and commentary. So what we're struggling in living in the 24 hour news cycle is that the news has happened once or twice in the day. The commentary is what accelerate. And the more they talk about it because they want you to tune in, they talk about it as if it gets worse and worse. And I think that it's very anxiety provoking. So I think that for anyone who says I struggle with balancing getting information and, and kind of having peace and peace from, from the culture of 24 hour news cycle, I say that I'm like, listen, like there's probably about five to six people you can follow that you just trust for information and make sure you stay informed because like being informed helps us to vote. It helps us to understand why and who and, and what we are rooting for and why things, you know, make sense and why things liberate. Some people oppress other people. It's being informed is not the same thing as watching our news, trust and belief. So what does it look like for you to also create a media diet that says how do I stay informed and how do I do that in a way that allows for me to have emotional and mental health?

Yeah, I try to go on it. The last few years I've gone on a five day trip where I leave my phone at home. The scariest thing ever, because I remember the first time I did it a few years ago I went to Hawaii and I left my phone in the apartment and I was like, I don't even know how to function going somewhere without having I have to print everything off. I have to ask for directions to go to a gas station. I didn't have gps. I was like, I don't remember my hotel was, or the car rental place. I was like, what am I doing? But I went to Hawaii for five days alone and I felt so much peace without having my phone and just being in nature and like reflecting on everything as opposed to checking or obsessing over something. So I really Recommend the diet 100% even like, one day a week diet.

Yeah. Or just.

Or at night.

Something that's like, just creates space that, you know, we live in. The age of having our phone in our hands all the time is creating a space of constant disruption. So we are constantly disrupting ourselves. So what does it look like, you know, and peace doesn't. You know, it's hard to cultivate peace if you're constantly being disrupted. I mean, think about. Even if you're. Listen, if you were saying, like, I'm gonna just take five minutes on my couch alone. Right. To just, like, have a peaceful moment. And I was just like, hey. Oh, Asking you a question every 10 minutes, you'd be like, why are you disrupting my five minutes of peace? Right. And that's our phone all day long. So there is no way to really have a big level of peace without a big level of claiming the space for peace to be possible.

So true. Well, Khalil, I want to acknowledge you for the peace and the joy you bring so many people. I've been following your work for a while, and I really love the way you approach community. Connecting to yourself, reclaiming your peace, understanding people, compassion, forgiveness, everything that you work on. I really admire and respect. Respect the work that you're doing because you're helping so many people. So I'm gonna acknowledge you for that. People can go get your book right now. They can follow you on social media. You like to hang out on Instagram the most? Or where do you.

Yeah, probably. I'm pretty much on Instagram.

Yeah.

Okay.

Because I can just take a photo.

Of my notebook and then just post it.

And then just post it. It's so funny. I always have people be like, we'd love to, like, for, like, a tech magazine wants to interview you about, like, user acquisition or something. I was like, I literally have no idea what that that means.

Post a photo.

Like, I literally post a photo of my notebook, and I've been doing it for five years, and that's my strategy.

Amazing.

I love it. I love it. Well, my final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

Oh, my gosh. I think my definition of greatness would have to do with how much you're able to give. Right. I think that if you are in a place of, you know, nothing feels more great than when you're able to give to yourself. Nothing feels more great than when you're able to give to your community. Nothing feels more great than when you're able to give to your world. And so I think that whenever you're connected with generosity of spirit, then I think you're channeling your highest level of greatness.

Yeah. Cleo, thank you so much. Appreciate it very much. Amazing.

I hope you enjoyed this episode my friend, and it was so powerful to learn about these things, about healing, about self, love, self, care about the non negotiables for living a bigger life. And if you enjoyed this, please let me know. Share it on your social media and tag me at Lewis Howes. Make sure to tag Cleo at the as well and text one friend today that you think this would help inspire them and improve their life, add value to their life. This is all about including other people in the message and helping people grow, elevating other people to live a big life themselves. And we all need the tools and the learning. This is why I continue to do this podcast, is because I want to continue to learn and practice new strategies for living a bigger, healthier, happier life as well. So share it with one friend today, a family member, a friend that you think this would inspire to help them live a bigger life and Leave us a review over on Apple Podcast. If this is your first time here, please click the subscribe button and leave a review. And if you rate it, that helps us spread the awareness to other people to help them live a bigger, more fulfilling life as well. So your reviews, your ratings, we love them. We we read them internally and they help us really spread the message of this podcast. So if you're a fan, you've been listening for a long time or this is your first time, please help us out by leaving a review and share your thoughts on what you gained from this and how we can continue to make it better for you and your life again. You were put here for a reason. And no matter what part of the journey you're on right now, whether you're rising to the top, you, you're just getting started. You're somewhere in the middle.

You're confused.

Remember that Rumi said your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it. You've got a lot of love inside of you, but sometimes we've got barriers, walls, traumas, experiences, memories, hurts and pains.

That hold us back.

Back from cultivating that love. And just know that you are born with love and you have love within you. And always remember that I love you so very much. I appreciate you. And as you always know, it's time to go out there and do something great. Sa. Suffering from dry, tired, irritated eyes, don't let dry eyes win. Use Sustain Pro. It hydrates, restores, and protects dry eyes for up to 12 hours. Sustain Pro Triple Action Dry Eye Relief.

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