890 Finding Happiness Through Fame with Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons

This is episode number 890 with Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons.

Welcome to the School of Greatness.

My name is Lewis Howes, former pro.

Athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur, and each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

Henry Moore said, to be an artist is to believe in life. We're all artists if you think of it that way. If we all believe in life, if we believe in the magic of life, the wonders, the adventures, the ups and downs, that's what this life is. And Dan Reynolds is a singer, songwriter and record producer who's best known as the lead singer and frontman of the Grammy award-winning band, Imagine Dragons. And he is a liver of life for sure. He's been around the world. He's been through all the ups and downs, had a lot of pain and a lot of happiness. And I'm excited to share this episode and interview with you about him and his lessons of life. And Imagine Dragons chart-topping single, Radioactive, holds the record for the most weeks charted on the Billboard Hot 100. That's staggering. And Rolling Stone called it the biggest rocket of the year. Billboard named them their breakthrough band of 2013 and the biggest band of 2017. Dan is also the recipient of the Songwriters Hall of Fame Hall David Starlight Award. In 2018, he began to talk about his physical and mental health struggles on social media accounts. and continues to offer encouraging messages of support to his fans and others struggling as well. And in this episode, we talk about the challenges of marriage and what Dan has learned about making relationships work. The powerful lessons about love that Dan learned from his family and upbringing. We talk about destigmatizing mental illness and the power of being open and honest about it. Why it's important to listen to your body and advocate for your health. Dan's biggest piece of advice that he's learned from being a rock star, a family man, and an advocate for mental and physical health, and so much more. I'm excited about this. If you're a big fan of Dan or Imagine Dragons, make sure to share this with a friend, lewishouse.com/890. Text someone, post it on social media. You can tag me and Dan Reynolds as well, and let us know that you're listening.

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All right, we've got Daniel Reynolds here. Welcome to the School of Greatness podcast, man. Super excited about this.

Thank you for being here.

You have been blowing up on the world with your music and your, your message. You know, your, your music is unbelievable and it's addictive, and I think It's in the top of the charts because it's so inspiring and addictive. But your message is what is interesting for me. I think there's a lot of artists that become popular but don't have a message that says something meaningful. And you have that, which is really cool and inspiring. So I'm glad you're here.

Thanks, man.

I appreciate it. And I'm curious about, as I was doing research on you, I'm curious about marriage. Because I'm a single guy. I've got a girlfriend who I've been.

Dating for a year.

Oh, nice. She's about to move in in a few weeks. Okay. It's been long distance for almost a year. And you've been married, and I read that you almost got a divorce.

Yeah.

Or you were talking about divorce.

We've been together for seven months.

Seven months, and now you're still married. We're back together. Now we've been together for about a year and a half and have had a baby boy together in that time.

So yeah, it's been a wild ride. How long were you married?

You've been married the whole time. We've been married for eight years. Yeah, we never got divorced, but we were going to. But then we were separated. We kind of just learned a lot about ourselves during that time period, about six months, seven months. And then we were literally going to sign the papers and went to lunch to talk about it. And then we ended up getting back together.

So you were separated for seven months. Were you not living together? Were you not speaking?

We were totally together already. I was on tour for those whole seven months and the kids would come out and visit. and stay with me a couple times a month and back with her. So it was basically zero communication for seven months. Wow. After being together for at that point, six years? Seven years. Seven years, I think, because I remember someone saying, oh, it's the seven-year itch or something. Whatever that is.

It's like hard at seven years.

Yeah, at seven years.

Seven months.

Supposedly that's the thing. Yeah, I guess seven is the unlucky number. Right. I'm the seven son, too. of eight boys.

I'd say you're pretty lucky.

Yeah, not lucky. Maybe it goes both ways. Yeah, exactly.

So, okay, so give me some advice if you can. I'm about to get into a more committed relationship. Why do you think that it got to a place where there was this disconnection, separation or lack of communication or whatever it was?

Yeah, that's a good question.

And what would you have done differently so that it didn't get to that point?

I would say my best advice so far, just if I was reflecting on my relationship, for anybody it would just be, first of all, of course, communication is everything. That's kind of cliche, right? But I would also say I had a really hard time in my life knowing what I wanted. I felt like a lot of my decisions were made for me. I was raised in a really conservative family. I felt like there was this path that was kind of carved by seven boys in front of me, and then I kind of had to follow it. They were all Eagle Scouts, and like it was like, this is the Reynolds way. and I fought against that my entire life. I was like the one who was getting in trouble. I was the one who had a hard time with religion. It didn't really work for me. But I also didn't want to disappoint. I had all these people in front of me that were so successful and then, you know, they all got married and all had kids. So, oh, I need to get married. I need to have kids. So every decision in my life, I mean, I made it. I was a victim of myself, really. I was being a stupid victim. But I also at the same point was like, I feel like I've just been forced into all these I'm a victim of myself. So I think where I finally made a big turn in my life is I realized that I am free to make my own decisions and I'm able to actually say, well, what do I want? And am I making this decision for anyone else but for myself? So I think my first question to you would be, are you with this woman 100% just solely on the fact that you want to be. And when I say that, of course, I'm not saying somebody's holding a gun to your head saying, I want you to be. But maybe there's like, pressures of like, I really love her now and I don't want to hurt her or let her, like, all of that aside. Why are you just here? Because you want to be here every single day. Are you there every day because of that? Not because of any pressure of, I don't want to be single anymore. Or people ask me, why am I still single? Or do you need to be married? Or, I'm gonna get married. Yeah, yeah. So being able to get to a point in life where you really can let go, I had to get to a point where I was able to completely let go of it's okay to disappoint people around you. It's okay to just upset everyone, you know? Even if that's whatever it takes for you to be happy.

Isn't that one of the hardest things is not letting other people down, not disappointing other people?

It was my greatest strength and greatest flaw of my life. was really being, I hate the term people pleaser because it just sounds so corny, but kind of what I did my whole life. I'd meet someone and be like, what do I need to give this person? Them to like you. For them to like me, to feel comfortable.

It's a good trait.

Let me meet you and find out what you need from me and then I'll be a chameleon and I'll give you exactly what you want. Oh man, isn't that crazy? Yeah, and then it just bites you in the ass and it actually hurts everybody around you. Pretty terrible quality to have. Yeah, I mean, I think it takes a while to realize that. 'Cause you wanna be polite still and kind, and you want conversations to be easy, but sometimes they just need to be hard. And sometimes you have to face hard truths. And so, I guess, I don't know that I have great advice other than.

So why did you get to the point of like, okay, we're gonna separate?

Because it was solely me, it was my fault. I got to a point where I thought, am I sure that where I am in life right now is exactly where I wanted to be. I was like going through a faith crisis. I'd been raised Mormon and I was like, I don't know if I believe this stuff. But I've been doing it for all these other people. Man, I'm like 30 years old and I don't know that I can't point at any decision. Did I marry Asia because I knew I loved her? Because I knew I loved her, but I was like, but do I know that I want to be married? Is this like something that I want, right? Like did I choose all, it sounds so selfish saying this out loud, but I'm trying to be really honest with her. But I was just felt like I was in a cage and I felt very claustrophobic and not because of her. She was absolutely wonderful. But because I was just a victim of feeling like I didn't have free agency my entire life, even though I totally did.

You made the decisions. You proposed, you got married. You could have any time backed out, but you felt this pressure from family.

Yeah, or from myself, my own head. So I guess my greatest advice, it might not be a thing for you, but for me it was. I wish somebody had said to me, Dan, you don't have to do anything. You don't have to like, you don't have to move, you don't have to move in together. You don't have to be with, you don't have to be at this table right now. You don't have to be nice to me. You don't have to, you know, like, you don't have to do anything. Like, do you. And be honest. It's gonna be okay. Like, you'll still have friends with the people who should be your friends. And you'll still, It'll all turn out okay. And so I think that I wish somebody had just really helped me to feel okay about doing whatever I needed to do in life or something.

Did you feel a bigger sense of pressure from family during that separational period.

Or like... No, they all were very like, like they knew Dan is unpredictable and...

He's a rebel artist.

He's an artist. He's just, and he's a real, like, Wow, what a horrible, like I definitely, I went away and I talked to nobody because I genuinely felt like everybody thought, well, that's a shitty person. And I thought, well, they deserve to think that you're right. I really was in that, I was in a really dark, dark headspace and I was like, I don't free and just go be free. I don't care how many people hate me. I really, I don't care.

Wow.

The only, the hardest part for me was how much it hurt Asia. But I just had just, I knew that it wasn't a choice for me at that point. I just kind of, I just had to go on a journey. You needed it, yeah. Yeah, and I almost completely lost her. I probably should have, but she went on a journey for herself and I went on a journey for myself and it just worked out that we found, I for sure, and hopefully she, I can't speak for her, but found out that absolutely we wanted to be together, you know, and do this.

So you recommitted from a free choice, not a pressure.

Yeah, it felt like it was like we wanted we washed it all clean, and then we came back to each other and we dated. We were like, let's go on a date. No commitment to me or you. Like, let's just go on a date. No, that was fun. That was my second date. It was all, it was like back to square one, like rewind 10 years previous, back to square one.

That's pretty cool, man.

Yeah.

What was the biggest challenge you faced on tour during that time, being alone and being, you know?

I can be self-destructive [No language] so, yeah, I think I was just. It was hard to love myself, I think.

Really?

Yeah, I think so. I felt like a bad guy and I just kind of was like, well, I am the bad guy, so. What does a bad guy do? Whatever a bad guy does, that's who I am. I'll play the role. So, I think, you know, there is a bit of that for sure. I don't know, this is the first time I've talked about this out loud, so I don't know, I'm still formulating in my head exactly what it was like, but looking at it, it was a very important time in my life. It was the first time I felt completely free because I was like, I let go of caring. And now I'm at this new space in my life where I just, it's not that I don't, I'm not saying don't care about people. I'm just saying don't ever dictate the way that your decisions that are gonna, especially your most important decisions based on pressures of other people, your parents, your friends. They should make choices for themselves and you should make choices for you. And if they love you, they're gonna respect you. As long as you're not like hurting people or being a bad human being, like, you know, like you have to make your own decisions.

Have your family been supportive of the artist way that you have and the bad decisions, the good decisions? Have they always been supportive and respectful?

Or is it, yeah, I think, you.

Had to take some distance from them at times.

I never really took distance from my family. Me and my mom had a time period where we were having a hard time communicating. It was when I was really dealing with my faith crisis. And she's very religious and that was hard for me. And so I had resentment feeling like, why did you raise me in this? And then I came to the realization. This is a whole 'nother conversation. But I came to the realization like, oh, she was just trying to tell me what, give me the best things that she thought she had to give me. How can I be mad at my mom for telling me what she believes and thinking would be the best thing? for me. But no, my family really, I think it was kind of one of those things where it's like if you beat someone down enough, they're like, well, that's just the way Dan is. You know, it was like I got kicked out of college before that. I got, you know, I had all kinds of things growing up that kind of got my mom to a point where she was like, I had, I feel like I tell my younger brothers, I'm like, man, you got a really easy 'cause I broke mom in. I like really broke my parents in. They did whatever you want. Yeah, they had a lot of good, good straight and narrow kids, and then I came along and kind of, yeah.

Now you talk about the challenge you had with your faith. You grew up LDS.

Yeah.

Where are you at with the faith now, or what was the realization you had?

I really am a spiritual person. I really, I believe in spirituality. I think it's an important part of my existence and, I'm on a quest, I think, every day to find truth and light and to hopefully be a light and find truth. I think it's a dangerous concept to feel like you're at a point of arrival. I think I'm always searching and I'm always like, wow, that feels true. And I like that. It doesn't feel true. I don't really like that. I just kind of like listen to everyone and be open. So I wouldn't call myself religious. I do still identify as Mormon, but more culturally than anything. I think I have a lot of loyalty to that community. They're like my people. I went on a mission for two years. I got beat up with other missionaries. Really? You got like, Slurpees thrown at you. You get like spit on. You know what I mean? So it's like it kind of unites you.

I'm telling you, get away from me. talk to me.

Yeah.

Pushing me away.

Didn't work. Just growing up being like a Mormon, it's not cool. It's never been, unless you live in Utah or something. I didn't grow up in Las Vegas. Yeah, in Utah, everybody's Mormon, so it's like if you're not Mormon, come on over. But in Vegas, it's not cool to be in middle school and be like, I'm Mormon. Everybody's like, that guy's a pilgrim or something. You know, like he wears special garments. And then, you know, it doesn't, and then you get like, you know, Broadway plays that are all about how stupid you are and They're funny. I'm not knocking the Mormon musical, but it doesn't help that you as a Mormon kid, you're a dummy to everyone. You're kind of like the butt of everybody's joke when it comes to religion. Mormons are freak, you're allowed to make fun of Mormons all you want. It's actually kind of, now that I'm at a point where I'm kind of on the outside, I look at it and I'm like, It kind of is. Look, there's some things about Mormonism, like, look, you guys are messing up on this and I'm trying to help with that, especially when it comes to LGBTQ things and stuff. That's a whole other conversation. But that being said, Mormons are like free game for everybody to pick on. I'm like, it's not that cool to pick on anybody, period. But especially when it comes to people's religions, I'm like, why is it okay to pick, you know, we're not allowed to pick on this religion, but we can pick on that one. But not this one. I'm like, well, all orthodox religions are messed up in certain ways. So either we make fun of them all or let's take it all off the table. It's a little like hypocritical, but whatever.

Do you have a relationship with the church? Do they support you? Do they not? Because you're in it.

Honestly, I have no idea what the leaders of the Mormon church think about me if they think I'm like a thorn in their side or something because of, you know, I really believe in, I really firmly believe that our orthodox religions are hurting our LGBTQ youth by telling them Hey, look, your most innate sense of being is flawed.

What are they saying to the community?

Well, it's- Just in general, I mean, that you're telling a child that they need to love a specific way. And it's a very dangerous thing to, I grew up with some of my friends who are Mormon and gay. And before they came out, I think anyone who was close to them, we knew they were, yeah, we knew, but it was like, They definitely didn't talk about it because it wasn't safe for them to. It wouldn't have been accepted in their family at all. They had a really, really hard road in front of them. And I watched that, and it was hard to watch that. Much harder for them, but being their friend, your heart hurts for them. And then I watched some of these guys go on missions and come back, and they didn't feel safe to come out till some of them were in their late 20s, 30s. It was, and then they lost family over it and lost friends and it was like, it's devastating. So for me, just watching that, it made me feel like, ah, this is broken. And then you look at the stats and it's like the number one reason for death among teenagers in Utah is suicide.

Really?

Mm-. Suicide. And then on top of that, the LGBTQ youth aren't accepted in their home or community. They're eight times more likely to take their life. So you put those two stats together and it's no wonder that we're losing so many LGBTQ youth to suicide. It's not because they're broken. It's not because they have mental issues or something. It's because our society and our culture is broken and we've kind of created this really desolate place for them. It's like, here, let me raise you in this religion. Let me tell you from a young age that this is everything. Like, God loves you based on this.

Only if you do this.

If you do this. And by the way, if you are LGBTQ, you can still be religious but just be celibate. or hide it and then have, it's like you're setting them up for a really unhealthy lifestyle that's just impossible to live by.

So, and someone who is unable to share their truth, whether it's right or wrong, good or bad, if you're not able to express your truth or who you feel like you are in that moment, is setting people up for big failure. If we're unable to share how we feel, express ourselves. Now, curious, what do you feel like is your truth after all these years of trials and tribulations and ups and downs and marriage and almost divorce and back together and kids. Yeah, I feel like-- Religion and non-religion.

Right, right. I don't feel like I have a core, like this is the truth, like I said, lots of little truths, but I think my main principle that I try to abide by is.

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It's a simple concept, and it's been said a million times, but I really try to meet people and just say, you know what? They were raised with whatever came, however you were raised, how would I have been if I was that person? I would probably be worse than them. You know what I mean? I'd probably have been a worse human being than them. So I think, it's like everybody is living in this world right now where everyone's screaming at each other. They're like stupid Republicans and the Republicans are like stupid Democrats and the religious people stupid atheists, stupid religious. It's like, right, but if you were just born in a different state or a different home or different city or different. Yeah, you just would be different. And so it's so silly to me that we're spending our entire existence as humans mocking each other based solely upon where you were born, what you were born into. It's not someone's choice. They just were born to be gay or they were just born to be, you don't have this choice to be raised in this family that's Baptist or raised, like whatever it is, like how can you judge someone off that? It's really silly. How can you even judge them if they're in their 40s and they have all the free will in the world and they're still doing that? Maybe you would have. Maybe you would still be doing all those exact same things as that person.

Or maybe in some area of your life you're still you're still that way. You're still fixed in a way than.

Based on how you were raised.

Right. And you haven't chosen a different way.

Yeah. Or no belief. Yeah. So I guess my just true abiding principle is just to realize, you know, realize that and just love people. Just come at things with love and compassion. Compassion. Look, if someone's gonna burn you like three times in a row or whatever it is, like, you know, then don't.

Take time for that person.

They're not for you. Yeah, they're not for you.

Spend time with Yeah. Who would you say was your greatest teacher growing up?

My mom and dad, for sure. My dad just quietly has worked his entire life. He still is working and he's late 70s or something. Well, I'm sorry if I got that wrong, dad. I think mid 70s. He's just worked his whole life. He's a quiet guy who grew up on a farm, kind of farm boy mentality, hard working, very conservative Mormon father who just his, you know, believes strongly in the things he believes and was a great dad and is a great dad. And my mom was very outspoken, very intelligent, very like strong, strong woman. Could have done anything, was like the valedictorian of her college, I think that has a different term for it, I don't know what it's called, but could have gone into medicine and done a lot of great things. And she decided to have nine kids instead.

What was the greatest lesson she taught you?

To love, I think, yeah, like true empathy, true love. I was talking at this seminar the other day that was in Utah actually, and it was a LGBTQ summit. We had this part where we were talking to parents, and I don't know why, I'm not qualified to talk about any of these things as like a cisgender straight man, but I was raised Mormon, so I could speak to that a little bit and things like that. But anyway, so I'm speaking to these people, and was talking about how the second apparent says, I love you, but it's just not love. Second anybody in your life, the second anybody says this, if your girlfriend says this to you, anybody, I love you, but this is my view on something. That's not what love is. It's just not, it's your LGBTQ child, I love you, but religion tells me that's not love. Love is just, I love you. that's it. That's the end of the conversation. That's love. Otherwise, it's not love. And that's something my mom taught me. Yeah. Because I was really difficult. I was a difficult child and she had a love for you.

And she loved me.

There was no but at the end of it. I never felt but from her. She strongly wanted me to do things. She strongly wanted me to be a good Mormon boy and be an Eagle Scout and go on a Mormon mission. She may not have said it. She didn't force me to do it. As I get older, you know, if you would ask me, If you asked me this two years ago, I'd have been like, My mom forced me to go on a mission. As I get older, I look back and I'm like, you, know, I could.

Have said no to any of it.

She wouldn't have kicked me out. She wouldn't have been disappointed or, She wouldn't have disappointed or, you know, and.

She strongly, you know, emphasized things, but I had a choice. And I made my choice. Even though there was a lot of.

Pressure and you felt like you wanted.

To please your mom, that was more a reflection of you than her. Yes, yes, good point.

Right, yeah.

I can relate to that. What, you know, you started opening up about seeing therapists or therapy and depression. And some people might say, man, you were the top of the world. You were like the biggest artist. Number one hit songs for, I don't know, a thousand weeks in a row, whatever it is. Like you're touring the world, sold out arenas. How could someone like that ever feel depressed or ever feel lonely or insecure? when they have everything that I could imagine wanting myself.

Yeah, I think it's a really redundant thing. It feels like to say this, but I'm just gonna say it because it's a real big truth for me. Happiness does not come from achievements. It just doesn't, it doesn't, I won't say happiness doesn't come from some money. There's like a, I will say, yeah, there's like, what's it make, 50 grand a year? You're like, I can't, you have enough money? for to do the things you want to do for the most part, you know, like buy that little thing you want to, you've always wanted to buy, like your bike that you want to go mountain biking with, have your house, or have an apartment, have food, like those things, absolutely. Anybody who tells you money doesn't make you happy, I'd call BS. You're wrong. I've been so broke when my wife and I got married, we were totally broke musicians, both of us living in a one bedroom studio apartment that we barely we could afford.

In Vegas or where were we going?

In LA actually, in Hollywood. Because we were trying to break into the scene, so we both.

What year was this?

This is 2009?

So 10 years ago.

Yeah. Yeah, something like that. 2009. With a baby sleeping in the closet and no medical insurance and like, we're just, it was a really, you know, scary time for us. And so we were happy, but we were very stressed. So, anyway, so- Thanks, I appreciate it. A little bit of money, absolutely important. But, sorry, what was the question?

When people are asking, like, how could someone like you be depressed when you.

Have all this- Right, so I'll sweep back before that. So when I was in middle school/high school, I started to really deal with serious depression and anxiety. And the way I describe that is 'cause I know some people are like, well, I've heard people who were really depressed, You just sink. You just sad. I'm like, no, depression is not just sadness. Depression is like, the way I'd explain it to someone who's never experienced depression is numbness, grayness, a loss of interest in every single thing that usually gave you excitement to do, like whatever sports or music or whatever it is. I just, it was like, I just went numb. And I just felt like my existence was, a cloud, like I felt when people talked to me, I could hardly even engage, I could hardly even listen, totally antisocial. All these things that come with major depressive disorder were happening to me. I don't know if there was some genetic thing, I don't know if it was a trigger from dealing with my spiritual crisis, I don't know, it was a matter of just being Dan Reynolds. I don't know what it was, but it just, I should have been happy, I had a really great life, you know, but that doesn't indicate whether or not some people get depression. So, went to a therapist, dealt with therapy for many years, helped me a lot.

In middle school, high school?

Yes, high school.

Gotcha.

Helped me a lot. Went to a therapist while I was on my Mormon mission, came home from my mission, went to a therapist. I still go to a therapist today. And it's made all the difference for me, absolutely. So, but when you grew, when you were a child in the 90s and you grew up then, it was very different. It was like, don't talk about being depressed. 'Cause if you're depressed, then you're weak.

Or it's kind of what about feelings?

Or that you're sad or lonely or insecure. Right, 'cause then people are like, oh, that person, right, we're the normal people here.

That's weird.

He's the depressed guy. You know what I mean? It's like, it definitely was super stigmatized. We're better now a little bit, but then it was like, nobody's talking about seeing a therapist. That's not cool at all. So, one of the first things I really wanted to start talking about to help destigmatize as good as I could now which a lot of people are doing, which I think is fantastic is saying, I have a therapist, dealt with depression, dealt with anxiety, part of my life. Because if someone were saying that to me when I was in high school or something, oh my gosh, that's normal. Yeah, I was like, oh, that person I look up to, who has it all, who has it all, is still depressed just like me?

Oh my gosh, it's gonna be all right, you know? Yeah, I feel like it's been a battle for men. I grew up, I was born in '85, '83, so grew up in the 80s and 90s. And I wasn't even allowed to really like put my arm around a friend, like a guy friend, without being called fag, gay, wussy, weak, little girl, whatever the term was. You know, just a buddy, like in.

The locker room, just talk like masculinity.

On the sports teams. And I wrote a book a couple years ago that came out called the Mask of Masculinity, which is about how men can be more vulnerable and how vulnerability is the key to healing and to freedom for men. And I opened up about being raped as a kid and what that effect had on me growing up in relationships and just like not being able to talk about that for 25 years and I've talked about it a lot now but not being able to talk about anything, any type of pain or insecurity or being vulnerable. Anything. Because I didn't feel like I could ever share with anyone. If I put my arm around a guy and I was called a negative name, just like a little bit of friendship. Or if I started to talk about something I was insecure about, it was like, get away from me. So imagine someone who's gay and it's not being accepted, not being able to do it, right? You understand that.

Totally.

I remember I was just like, I always felt like I couldn't share things that actually happened because I would never be accepted or loved. And the moment I started opening up about it, which was about six years ago, started opening up to my friends, family, and then publicly, like, the pain started to go away and I started to become less of a prisoner of the fear because I put it out there. And I think when men specifically who don't like to open up, learn how to open up and be more vulnerable, even just with a therapist in a private setting, I'm not saying say this publicly to the world.

Right.

But when we start to open up, you said you start to feel better. You can manage the anxiety or depression or negative thoughts or insecurities, right?

Yep.

Why do you think so many people still today don't share how they feel with even someone where it's confidential? Why don't they seek that out? Why do we try to hold it in?

Yeah. I mean, look, first of all, like we said, it's something that has just been a part of toxic masculinity for a long time. You can't be vulnerable. You need to be a strong man that's just perfect and put together. and the woman needs to be this, and here's a feminine quality, and this is a man, like there's no in between, there's no anything, it's just you're either this or that. That for sure, I also think today it can be really unhealthy social media, it can be really unhealthy. I think it's all part of the comparison. Yes, people spend a lot of time on it, and they scroll through these pictures and they look, and they're like, let's click on this family. Wow, they look beautiful, every picture. Wow, look at the beach, they're traveling a lot. We need to travel more. We haven't traveled in a while. I haven't gone on vacation in a while. These people are on vacation all the time. Hey, look at this person. Oh my gosh, she looks so great in makeup all the time.

Why?

I don't look like that when I put my makeup on. It's like this. These thoughts are going through everybody's mind all the time. And that creates this real false narrative that there are people out there that if you just could be, they're just great. They're fantastic. They wake up every day and they're like, oh yeah, this is great. I love myself. So good. I'm gonna go on a vacation every day. Like it's like, no, that's not, that doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. And then people get into this dangerous thing where they're like, if I get that, then this. And then you get that, and let me tell you what happens when you get that. Oh, wait, wait, wait. If I get that, then this. If I get that and it just goes on nonstop, you're fulfilled. It's never, it's not even that it's enough. It's not even like there's a tank and you're filling it a little bit. It's actually this tank stays at zero. It's literally the bowl.

It's emptier and emptier.

You're still climbing. If you're looking for achievements, don't get me wrong, it feels incredibly great when you're working for some job and you get that job that you've always wanted. Yes, absolutely. But that's not what happiness is.

It's a moment of that. Then you got the rest of your.

Life to be happy and choose it. Yes. Oh, now I need that promotion. I really don't like this job. I get that promotion, you know, it's always, there's just, it's a, do you.

Feel like it's amplified for artists who are on massive stages with the pressure? He was just talking about that he was a photographer for a big artist, I won't say her name, but stopped working with her and just the toxicity of the industry of the jealousy and the competition and such a pressure to, I remember interviewing Steve Aoki and I was like, what's your biggest this fear. And this was at, like, the height a couple years ago of his documentary and just, like, tour every night of the year. And he goes, staying relevant was his biggest fear.

Yeah.

That he shared on the podcast.

He's a really nice guy.

Super nice guy. He's like, you know, the fear of, like, just being relevant. Are people gonna want to listen to my stuff?

Yeah.

In a week, in a month, in a year.

Are people still gonna like my music?

Is it still interesting for people? Yeah. It can be the pressure of, like, once you're up there, it's almost more pressure to stay and get bigger, not decline.

Right, right?

Oh yeah, for sure.

The saddest part to me of the industry is these are a bunch of artists that are sharing, the whole point of artistry is you're sharing a really vulnerable part of you. You're like, let me tell you all what I write in my journal at night. That's basically what it is. It's like, here's my journal, these are the things I'm writing. By the way, let me go to the rooftop and say it to everybody. And so the second that becomes a competition of like, oh, this person's journal, and especially when people are like, it's not subjective. It is completely subjective. Why do you want to listen to? That's going to be a subjective thing. Whose journal is better than other people? That's going to be a subjective thing. So the second artist are. And then when artists are turning on each other, it's just, it makes me sad. That is something about the industry. And I, and I watch people just get torn apart because they'll, they'll express their most heartfelt thing. And then it's just, it just is, people just eat it out.

They just criticize it. They'll judge it. They're like, this guy sucks. This girl is no good, whatever.

Right.

Pour your heart out.

This is cooler. This is not as cool.

There's a lot of great art and songs and movies that have stemmed from an emotional pain or suffering seeming where people talk about their pain and it becomes this beautiful hit where people relate to it. It's a number one bestseller, whatever. Do you believe it's more powerful to create from a place of pain or love?

-Hmm. That's a great question.

-Which one is more sustainable?

-Well, I would say I've definitely written a lot more from pain than love. I had written very few love songs. So, I don't know that I'm the best person to ask this question to, because I don't have a whole, I have a really hard time writing a love song without feeling like, oh, this just doesn't feel right.

Not authentic or whatever.

Yeah, it's just like, I'm not gonna write a song just to write a song. Don't get me wrong, I've written a few love songs, but if I were to put it on paper, it's like.

90% of Imagine Dragons songs are like pain.

Yeah.

And there's like, yeah, there's like 5% of like, just, I'm completely happy like... I'm bliss. Yeah, like on top of the world. I just felt great. And then there's like the 5% of love songs. But so for me, I remember I was talking with one of my friends the other day and he was telling me that he was having a really hard time writing. And I was asking him why and he said, well, 'cause I'm really happy.

Oh man.

I'm just really happy as all the songs he was churning out, he just thought he felt like he was reaching for something. I'm not saying you can't write a song when you're really happy, but maybe it's more just like in a peaceful I don't know that art, it does exist and some people are in like total zen mode, probably writing great songs and poetry and stuff, but I would think that most art comes from pain. If I had to, if I'm just guessing, I guess most art comes from this place of insecurity, pain, hurt, questioning, and then love is maybe second, you know, on the list. I don't know. That's just what I listen to. So maybe I'm just, it's just a product of what I choose to listen to. to listen to it. Sure.

What is your greatest fear?

Well, if I were to say my greatest fear on just a level, like, I think there's like two levels of fear. There's like, there's fears that are like the common, like spiders or, you know, and then there's the fears that are like deep fears. So on the common fears, I would say I'm very claustrophobic. I really, I don't want to get stuck in an elevator or in a coffin. That for me is like, oh, man. Like, I've had one time where I stuck in an elevator and it I was literally it was like-- Bagging, you're like-- yeah, it was like only 30 seconds or something.

I'm gonna die in here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was intense. I can't even talk about it without getting the chills. So that would be like the trite fear. But a deep fear for me is losing people I love. I know that a lot of people say that, but for me, that authentically, I've lost quite a few, maybe an unusual amount over the years, yes, to drug abuse, to suicide, or cancer, those three things. Those seem to be just a prevalent source of just, they're just like these demons that are lurking over all my friends and family throughout the years.

I said this to, I don't know if you know, Lindsay Sterling.

Yeah, yeah.

But she's LDS.

The violin player, yeah, yeah, yeah.

She was on about a year ago and her, you know, she had some deaths in her family and her life. And I was talking to her about it. I was like, you know what? One of my fears is I've met so many people just like you, or I've interviewed so many people. I've become friends with people. I've had so many friends in sports and business and all walks of life. And not many people have died, right? And I don't know what it's gonna be like losing someone. Like, eventually I'm gonna die or they're gonna die, right? and if I'm alive, someone's gonna die at some point. How do you handle grieving death of someone who's close, or even maybe not that close, but just people you interact with and are friends with?

You know, I wish I knew the answer. I'm going really through something right now where I'm really trying to make peace with that. I'm like, frantically searching for some set of peace, some way to make peace with the people I've lost. I just started reading this book, Proof of Heaven. I'm like, you know what I mean? I'm like, I'm looking for someone. Please, be true.

Yeah.

But I think that's an important part of life because otherwise I was just stagnant, kind of. I was just like, ah, what, you know, we're gonna live. And then you're like, I'm gonna live forever. You're just not thinking that, no, you know, it's going to get to a point in your life and tipping.

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Fidelity Brokerage Services member NYSC SIPC. Point where you're going to start to lose people around you, whether it's you get older and it's just heart attacks and things like that, or if you make friends with a lot of people who apparently, you know, have whatever it's drugs, whatever it is, like me, I've lost quite a few friends to that. So, What do you do about it? I don't have a great answer for it other than I just choose to believe that I'm gonna see them again. And I know a lot of people are like, you know, there's a lot of atheists who are like, why choose to believe in BS? And I went through a phase actually where I was really at that point. I was very like angry about religious people and very angry towards anyone who believed in it. Just what? You know what? It's funny because I turned into the person, it was one of the first people I met on my mission walked up to me and said, he was like, look at you, this missionary. He was like, I just want to tell you, kid, religion is for weak people.

Oh, that was your first day.

First day. Yeah, you're on that street like, hello, I'm Elder Reynolds. Jesus Christ, Latter-day Saints. And this guy I just looked at me and he said, Religion is for weak people. And I was just like, Daggar. He's like, Just people who can't handle the truth. So I went through this phase where I was there, I was like, you, know what? All these people making up these things just because they can't face the harsh reality of life. You're gonna live and then you're gonna die. You're gonna be nothing. There's nothingness in this green. I definitely went through that phase. And I'm not knocking on people who are there because it's just as possible that that's the truth as something else. What I have a problem with is when people tell me, I know it's this. That's true.

You don't know.

Yeah, that's what bothers me.

Either way, no one knows.

I'm just as bothered by the atheist telling me that they know, as I am as the Mormon telling me they know. I don't want anybody to tell me they know it's a fact. Let's just all settle on the fact that we don't know 100%.

Yes, yes.

So I went through that phase and now I'm at a place where I've had one experience that I can really look to that I was like, I don't know how to explain that. And it gives me a little bit of hope in a cool way that I always wanted my whole life. I was like, God, if you're there, like I would pray every day. I'm like, God, as a Mormon kid, like, Give me what is going on with my family. They all believe in this thing. 'Cause I guess you're answering their prayers, but you're certainly not answering my prayers.

Like, just wiggle my bed or like, just dudes.

Turn the lights on or something. And I'm relentless. Lacy, I prayed for that. Nothing. And then, you know, you're always told at church, it's like, well, the miracle seekers never get the miracle. I'm like, what the hell? Am I supposed to not want an answer then? And then I get the answer, like, you just can't win, you know? Sure. So, so, yeah. But now I'm in a place where I've had certain things happen where I do. I feel a closeness to some people who have passed, like, and some people can call it emotion, whatever that might be the truth, but for me, For me, I feel like there's something more. I tell my daughter that, you know, I tell my kids that, yeah. Yeah, that's cool.

You got a few more questions, okay? Okay.

Yeah. She's like, Talk about ankylosing spondylitis. I get you, yeah.

Gosh, there's so many things I wanna ask you, but I wanna respect for your time.

I can tell you a little bit of health. Health?

Okay.

So, there was, and so, let me just tell you about all my problems. Yeah. Let me complain. So the biggest things, the things that I'm most passionate about are the LGBTQ community because of the reason I explained. Yeah. Obviously religion and talk of those things are important to me and it's just interesting to me. I really like to talk about that. Aliens, I like aliens a lot. I get into that with you later but. Sure. Another interview.

Yeah, yeah.

Mental health is important to me because the reason I explained and then physical health is actually super important to me.

I dealt with something. Yes.

Yes. I was diagnosed with two diseases in my 20s, ulcerative colitis and ankylosing spondylitis, which are both autoimmune diseases. But I was undiagnosed for many years, which is super frustrating. Anybody who has some magical thing going on that's horrible to their body and nobody knows what it is and you're seeing the doctors who are supposed to know and they either don't know or they have crazy egos and they pretend to know. Give you a diagnosis. Which is even worse. like, oh, that doctor, you went and saw blah blah blah, no wonder you didn't get an answer. He's really stupid. I could tell you what it is. Sciatica. And I was having all these crazy back issues that came out of nowhere. No point of injury, didn't do anything. It just suddenly I was just having extreme back pain in my SI joints, just like unexplained back pain, lots of morning stiffness, couldn't sleep at night. And it was right when the band was just starting to break. So it was like I couldn't perform. So I was like, oh, great, I worked so hard for this my entire life and now it's just gonna fall apart. Wow. So finally I went after a couple years to a rheumatologist, which I wish I had done earlier and I was diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis, got treatment for it, changed my whole life. Now I'm able to do all the things I want, live a great, healthy, wonderful life. So that's my last thing that I'm really, really focused on right now, which is I'm part of this campaign called, if you go to monsterpainintheas.com, you can take a three-minute quiz and find out relatively if it's possible, sounds like that you have AS and then it'll refer you to a rheumatologist in your area. If I would have had that, it would have literally years of pain changed. So for me, I just, I really am frustrated that there's a disease that millions of people have and that millions of people probably have right now that's undiagnosed and they're just living with it and going to doctors just like me who don't know what ankylosing spondylitis is. I understand it's a mouthful, but it's actually a pretty common disease. So we need to make it mainstream.

And this campaign search. So for people that maybe feel like they have something going on in their immunity or their system, go to this place and take the quiz to see.

If this might be the answer. You're having unexplained back pain, period. If you have unexplained back pain, go to Monster. It cannot serve you wrong to go to monsterpainintheas.com, take literally, it's like a two minute quiz. It took me like two seconds to do. It's like there's certain indicators that show, okay, this isn't like a point of back injury. This is actually more likely an autoimmune thing or an inflammatory thing. So, and it'll tell you whether or.

Not in the next steps of what to do.

Yeah, and they'll find a rheumatologist for you right in your area. It's literally, it's just, I just wish I had it available to me.

Yeah. So, or if you hear a friend who says, I always got this back pain.

Totally.

Tell them to go to the doctor. Absolutely. And it manifests itself different in other people. Some people it's in their neck, some people it's in their ankles. So if you have unexplained inflammatory pain in your body, go there.

Might as well, takes a couple minutes. You said you moved out here roughly around 2009. It's the end of 2009.

I live back in Vegas now. I was here for a while.

Back to Vegas, yeah. But you moved out here to kind of start your career in 2009, is that fair to say?

Yeah.

So it's been a decade of you on the journey of pursuing this career, this dream. blowing up and being where you're at now has been a decade and we're about to start a new decade, 2020.

Right.

It's the start of a new decade. It's, you know, perfect vision 2020.

Right. Okay.

So based on the last decade of your life with all the challenges, ups and downs from the religious questioning, family, marriage, being a father, you know, rock star, superstar, success, injury, all this stuff to failure, failure to mastering your health, to being the bad boy, to, you know, all these different things. What was the, the greatest lesson you learned in the last decade moving into 2020 perfect vision, new decade?

Great question. I would say listening. I feel like we live, if there's anything I want to Implement in the next decade of my life, it's just listening more. and actually having conversation that leads to progress. I think we live in a nation right now, especially that's so divided because people are just name calling. No one's listening, no one's taking time to actually say, this is what I think. Now what do you think? Why do you think that? Let's actually really get into the nitty gritty of that. I just think that that, I wish there was just more listening. I wish I listened more. I want to like, be in a conversation with anybody at any time and give it a hundred. Like that's, I really am trying to make more of an effort to just be present to, yeah. I say all this as I'm telling you. I'm like thinking in my head, I'm like, I really want to listen.

Let me tell you all the reasons.

You need to listen.

It's great, man. This is a question I ask at the end called the three truths to everyone. So imagine, It's your last day on earth many years from now. You get to live as old as you want to live, but eventually you gotta pass. And you've achieved every dream you can think of. You make all the art you want to make, and you help all the people, and you do all the things. It all happens. But for whatever reason, you gotta take all of your art, creative writing, videos, content you put out in the world with you. So no one has access to your words, music, this conversation gone. Hypothetical question. But you get to leave behind a piece of paper and you get to write down three things you know to be true from your entire life. The three greatest lessons that you would leave behind for anyone to be remembered by you. And this is all they would have to remember you by. What would you say are those three truths or three lessons that you would want to share with the world?

Geez, it's heavy.

It's a school of greatness, not school of average.

Woo, that's heavy. Well, first of all, I would try to be just short in my explanation, 'cause people's, nobody's gonna read a ramble. Yeah. I think the first thing I would say that's the obvious thing that was the quickest thing that I've learned in my life was love completely. Yeah, just love completely. Like everybody you meet, give them complete love, acceptance. And yeah, that would be one. I think two would be love yourself. Yeah, I think that sounds like it'd be covered in one, but I think I'd reiterate it in two because it just needs to be said. I have had a really hard time coming to terms with myself, loving myself. I think that's really, really important to love yourself. And three, do more of what makes you happy. Yeah. I think it's easy to feel guilty because you need to do more of, you know, I don't know. I just think do more of what makes you happy. Like you just, it's not, I know that sounds selfish to some people, but it might make you extremely happy to serve others, right? You know what I mean? Like, yeah, of course. That might make you super happy. It makes me happy. I'm not saying I'm great at it, but it makes me happy. So do more of what makes you genuinely happy. Maybe I'd throw in genuinely, because it's like, it's gonna take you a little bit to learn actually what makes you happy. You might think it's just eating like Eggo McMuffins every day or whatever those are. Eggo McMuffins. That's how I do it.

Eggo McMuffins. Eggo McMuffins.

Eggo McMuffins.

I go, oh my gosh, muffins.

That sounds like a great product. That's where I was lost. Sorry. But yeah, what genuinely makes you happy? Probably those three things. I love that, man.

I want to acknowledge you, Dan, for a second, for being a great listener, for showing up and listening to your audience, for being someone who is a humble servant. You know, as much as you're off on the road and pursuing your passion, you're lifting so many people up. and you're able to share this type of message vulnerably when a lot of people in your position, I don't think open up like this. It's gonna help a lot of people. And I know you do this on stage and on tour, and you do events just speaking about this for communities that really need this. So I acknowledge you for your heart, your ability to listen to your own truth, yourself, and for spreading so much love to so many people. So I acknowledge you for that, man.

Appreciate it, man. Yeah, of course. Right back at you. we had a great spirit about you and I really appreciated my time here.

How can we support you in other ways? How can we follow you online? Where can we go and where do you like to hang out, Instagram the most?

Yeah, you know, I do a little Instagram and Twitter. I don't know, that's just Dan Reynolds, I think, for both.

With your tours coming up.

Yeah, we're gonna be off the road for a little bit. Don't have to worry about that. I feel like the world has had enough of Matt and Dan for a little bit. You can take a break from that you can go to love loud love loud fest.com if you want to look at the lgbtq Festival we put on every year. We've raised good money for great Charities. Is that Salt Lake or is it around Utah? Sometimes we do Salt Lake, sometimes more in, like, the southern Utah area and monsterpainintheas.com if your back's hurting you, like, yeah, I think just check it out. Check in on your, your health and be good to listen to this guy, he sounds like he knows what he's doing, got a good heart.

Love it, man. The last question is, what's your definition of greatness?

Definition of greatness. I'd say true humility. Like the people I respect the most, and I'm like, that person is great. I think of like my dad. I think of people who just, and I say true humility because there's a lot of false humility and people are like, oh, but it's hard to find somebody who really just spends their whole life just just making other people around them feel good. Yeah. Because they just, that's what they do. Yeah. And I look at those people, I'm like, that's a leader to me. Every time, like, yeah, that's it for me.

That's it, man.

Yeah.

Thanks, bro. Thank you, man.

I hope you got some valuable insights from this episode with Dan. Such an inspiration, a of knowledge from all of his experience. I mean, the guy has been through so many different challenges, so many different ups and downs, traveled the world. He's been through it all, from nearly getting divorced to having multiple kids, to having different phases in his life that were good, that were challenging, to again, experiencing what I'd like to be famous all over the world and to sing and perform in front of tens of thousands of people and so much much more. The guy's been through a lot. He's got a lot of lessons. And if you enjoyed this, share it with one friend. Text someone today, lewishouse.com/890 share it on social media. Get the message out there. You can be a champion and a hero in someone's life by helping them improve their life with this interview. You never know who you're going to impact. You never know whose life could change from this wisdom. So make sure to share it. and get the message out there. If this is your first time, please subscribe over on Apple Podcasts and leave us a review. I'd love to hear from you of what you enjoyed about this, how we can make this podcast better, and any other types of suggestions or recommendations you have. Go to Apple Podcasts, click Subscribe on the School of Greatness, and leave us a review so we can learn more about you and what you liked about this show. Also, shoot me a text with the word podcast over at 614-350-3960. I'm connecting with intimate group of people who are texting me over there. That's my community platform where I'm getting back to people one by one, doing my best. I get hundreds of messages a day there, but I'm sending micro audio messages of inspiration every single week. So if you want to get on my inspirational voice memo and text messaging platform, then again text me the word podcast at 614-350-3960. A big thank you again to our sponsors today, lendingclub.com/greatness. Again, you can check your rates in minutes and borrow up to $40,000 at lendingclub.com/greatness. Make sure to check them out. They're the number one a peer-to-peer lending platform with over 35 billion dollars in loans issued and also netsuite.com slash greatness again you can get your free guide the seven key strategies to grow your profits by going to netsuite.com slash greatness that's net s-u-i-t-e.com slash greatness as Henry Moore said in the beginning to be an artist is to believe in life well in that case Anyone who believes in life is an artist and this world is a beautiful canvas that you get to play and explore every single day and bring your art to life. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Share it with a friend. Subscribe over on Apple Podcast. And as always, you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.

I'm Katie Nolan, and I have a new podcast called Casuals. It's a podcast for people who like sports a normal amount. Casuals is a twice a week hang with me and my friends from across comedy, sports, and entertainment, where we talk about all the funny, weird, interesting stuff happening in and around the world of sports. So whether you're a diehard fan or just vaguely sports curious, Casuals is the podcast for you. You can find Casuals on the SiriusXM app, Pandora, or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.

Give it a try.

What's the worst that could happen? Going up. Prices keep going up these days. It feels like being on an elevator that only goes up.

Going up.

But not at Metro. We're pushing the down button. We've lowered prices. Get one line of 5G data for $40, period. That's 20% lower. And you get a free Samsung 5G phone when you bring your number only at Metro. Five-year guarantee on eligible plans. Exclusions apply. See website for details.

Not available at Metro with T-Mobile in the past six months. Tax supplies.