925 Katherine Schwarzenegger Pratt on The Power of Forgiveness

This is episode number 925 with New York Times bestselling author, Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.

Thanks for spending some time with me today.

Now let the class begin. I love this quote by Gandhi who said, the weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is an attribute of the strong. That is a great one. And Oprah Winfrey said, True forgiveness is when you can say thank you for that experience. We have a powerful episode for you today. Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt is a New York Times bestselling author, animal advocate, daughter, sister, wife and stepmom. As a passionate animal advocate, Catherine works as an ambassador for Best Friends Animal Society and the ASPCA, lending her time, voice and energy to spread awareness about animal rescue. As an author, Catherine has skillfully translated her own personal experiences into all of her books. that speak to her generation. And in this interview, we talk about the doubts she had in high school and the role that doubt plays in her life now. We also go into what it's like to write a book and how to stay true to the reason why and who the book will serve. The greatest lessons she's learned in her new marriage and what that's been like. The power of forgiveness and what practices she's learned to not only forgive others, but how to forgive without another person's permission. That's a hard one. And how to take your power back through forgiveness and not wait for someone else's permission. I'm so excited about this. I hope you enjoy this episode. I'm super excited about this one. So let's dive in with the one and only Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt.

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Learn more at discover.com/creditcard. what's up, podcast listeners? It's tanks, host of the it's me, tanks podcast. Join me weekly on it's me, tanks as I dive into topics like relationships, why it's okay to feel lonely, fighting summer comparison, and pop culture's hottest takes. I don't shy away from getting candid about my personal experiences, and I want to share all the advice I have learned with you. I'm even joined by some of my friends like Claudia ashre, Connor Wood, and Amanda Hirsch each Friday for our new office hours episodes. You can listen to it's me, tanks every Monday, Wednesday and Friday wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show.

So you don't miss an episode.

Welcome back to one of the School of Greatness podcasts.

We've got the inspiring Catherine Schorchtner Pratt in the house. Good to see you.

Good to see you too.

Excited. We connected, I think, a year ago, I guess you said, at a family dinner of yours with your mom.

Yeah, I think I interviewed you like two years ago.

Was it two years ago? On the phone.

So we actually never met until about a year ago. We never officially met, but we were always like, you know, connected through people. Yeah, connected through people.

Yeah, exactly.

So.

That's great.

Yeah, but then we met in person a year ago. That's great. We had dinner and I gotta come to more dinners. Your mom does amazing dinners. Sunday family dinners. It's unbelievable. It's like full on amazing food, great people.

Yeah, so the conversations. I love you. The conversations go deep there. I know.

Are they like that all the time?

All the time. Well, my mom, as you know, is like a deep person. Deep thinker. I was actually just saying to somebody this morning that my mom has this ability to have, to get complete strangers to open up to her in a way that they don't talk to their family or friends that they've known for their whole lives.

What is that? How do you do that?

I don't know, but she does it and she'll often watch people and they'll, I think they think that they won't do or go there with her, and then they'll go there and they'll be like, how did you do that? What happened? And she just, it just comes out. 'Cause I remember at dinner she was questioning you about like everything.

Everything.

And we were all just sitting there.

Do I go there? Do I go there or not? Do I know these people?

No.

And that's the best part.

Wow. What's an interesting, most powerful lesson you've learned from your mom?

I think, well my mom teaches me so much all the time. Like I was also just, I talk about this constantly lately. And I think it's because as I've gotten older, I'm asking my mom constantly for advice. Really? And I was saying, I've always asked my mom for advice, but I think as we get older, for me, I call my mom, you know, I'm like, I ask her about, you know, how do you do this? How do you do that? What are your thoughts on this?

Give me an example.

Well, I mean, I'll just call her with, you know, I mean, especially with this book, I'll ask her for advice on that about, you know, different book tour ideas, different podcast ideas, just everything. And then also with, friendships and relationships and just, you know, as you get older, those things become much more, I find, unknown. And so it's nice to be able to have somebody who you admire and also who inspires you to be able to talk to. And I was saying to my mom that she's like this well of wisdom in every single area and category, that it's just, like, there's just so much that you can never get enough of it. And so I can call her with, something about my dog or something about a friend or work or whatever. And it's just, I could just listen to her for days.

What's the greatest lesson she taught you growing up that you still think about today?

I think both of my parents always told the four of us kids that whatever we wanted to do in our lives to do it with passion and to make a difference, make a positive impact, and know that they're proud of us and loved and that we're loved no matter what.

No matter what you do.

Yeah, and so that was something that my mom and my dad both taught us, or taught us four kids from when we were very little, which was just that if you are really passionate about writing, do that. If you're really passionate about animals, do something there. If you're passionate about, you know, interior design or if you're passionate about the beach or the environment, go do whatever you're passionate about and know that you're loved no matter what you do and also the importance of working hard to make a difference for others. But, you know, that was always a common theme in our lives. But I think just knowing that we were always loved by our parents is the greatest gift.

Is there ever a time where you didn't love yourself?

Or I didn't love myself. I think probably in high school when I was struggling with body image things, I was critical of myself. But I don't think I ever hated myself.

What would you say to yourself? Like internally or externally?

Well, I just never, I think when you're a young girl, and I'm sure it's the same for a young boy, but when you grew up in LA and you're a young woman in LA and you go through all those changes in high school and you're like, Awkward and then you go in like through puberty and all these different phases and you're just yeah, everything the whole thing and your friends are different and they're changing and it's just like this whole confusing time, you know, you wake up some days and you like like what you see in the mirror and some days you don't and that continues through life, which is what I've realized, but it's all about how you can bring yourself back to a place of self-love and so I didn't really have a good handle on that when I was in high school, which I think is from what I can gather pretty normally. Every kid. But then I think as I've gotten older and also surrounded myself with people that are really loving and supportive and have my best interests in mind and that really care about me, then it can make me laugh. It's also very important that it helps.

What were some things that you were critical of yourself? Is it just like...

I mean, everything. I was like, my butt's too big, my hips are too big, I'm ugly. Why isn't this person liking me? My friends aren't here. Really? Oh my God, in high school for sure. Get in a girl's mind in high school. You will be very surprised what happens.

I'm scared to have kids.

I know.

Okay. Do you have any of those conversations still?

I think I always have, it's normal to be able to have conversations where you have doubt about things or you're pushing yourself in certain areas. I think some of that can be healthy because it can push you to be better and to do things really well. But there's also a part of it which my mom also always talks to me about, which is just to, like even with this book or with my other books, I'll look at it and I'll be like, I want to do this better and I want to do this. And it's like a constant, you leave yourself never satisfied. And instead of saying like, wow, I wrote a book. That's so awesome. And it's, you know, if it helps one person, that's amazing. And if one person feels not alone in their forgiveness journey, then My book has served its purpose. So it's finding a good balance between.

Isn't that hard though when we have such high goals or expectations for ourselves and we're like, but we want to hit the list or we want to hit 10,000 sales or a million sales and then it only does a fraction of that. How do we learn to forgive ourselves.

For not achieving what we wanted? I think it's coming back to the reason why you wrote a book or why you decided to do anything in general. I think like, for my children's book. I had never done a children's book before, and my, you know, I would get frustrated with the team that we were working with and just, you know.

That's so challenging.

Exactly. It can be very challenging. But then you, you know, the whole process can be frustrating and a learning experience, and you kind of go through this whole, this whole, you know, series of challenges and emotions with any book, but that book was particularly challenging and then I kept trying to come back, why did I write this book? And I wrote the book to be able to teach children about animal adoption and also to help homeless animals find homes. And I've always been passionate about animals and I have a rescue dog and it's changed my life and it's been such an amazing blessing in my life. And so when I come back to why I even wrote it, even if I wrote it for myself and just gave it out to people for fun, that would be okay too because it's, you know, the point is that I'm passionate about animals and that I wanted to teach kids and I love children and I love animals and so I wanted to bring two passions together and create it. And so I try to come back to that a lot.

I'm curious about the thing in your life that you're most proud of.

Ooh.

That maybe a lot of people don't know about. Maybe it's not public information, but something that you're really proud of that you've done.

I think this probably sounds cheesy, but I think what I'm most proud of, two things. One is my relationship with my family. That's probably what I'm every day most proud of.

Why is that?

Because I look at a lot of people's families, especially as you get older, and you don't have to spend time with them. You're not. You don't all live in the same house together. You're not. always around each other. And as you get older, your relationships with your family change and also you.

Create your own family.

You create your own family. And you have to make an effort to see people and to stay in touch with people. And I felt really lucky to be able to be, to have two parents who really emphasized how important family is and also the closeness between the four of us kids. And so I think I'm 30 now and I look at my relationship with my siblings and I'm really proud of that. And I look at my relationship with my parents and I'm really proud of that. And then I also, now as a married woman, I look at my relationship with my husband and also the relationship that I have with him and the love that I have with him and I'm very proud of that as well. So I would say relationships for me are what I'm most proud of.

Why are you proud of that over something else? Like, why is that so important to you?

Because I think it takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of work, a lot of self-awareness, a lot of work on yourself and a lot of effort, a lot of time and at the end of the day, that's what's most important to me. And everything else, you know, work and friends and, you know, that's all really important to me as well. But I would say those relationships to me are everything. Everything.

What's the greatest lesson you learned about yourself in the last year since being a married woman in terms of relationships?

It's funny because people keep asking me like, How is it? How's it going? And I'm like, It's great. We haven't even married for a year yet. It's amazing. So I feel like those questions are oftentimes better for people who've been married for 30 years, they probably have a lot. But I think probably just how, not that I necessarily didn't think this, but I think just how great it is and also how great it is to be able to have a partner that's very supportive and loving and brings out the best in me and also wants what's best for me.

Yeah.

And also loves my family, gets along with my dog, like everything. It's a very, I constantly am throughout the day. I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe it's like the best.

That's amazing.

Yeah, it's a very, a really exciting thing.

Because a lot of people struggle in the relationships. Yes. It's probably the most challenging thing for people is finding the right intimate partner. Being in harmony.

Yeah.

Having mutual interests. Yeah. Staying together for a long time. You know, it's like one of the.

Most challenging things for people. Yes, common values.

Do you think that, do you think the values was like the main thing for you that's what's made it so smooth?

Well, we met in church, so I think that helps.

Yeah, it's great.

Yeah, it helps to, you know, meet in a place and it's different for everybody, but to meet in a place where, you know, you have common beliefs and values and you know what's important to the other person and then you, you know, spend time learning about what other things are important to the person as well, but I mean, even with like writing this book, it's like, you know, I always have had my family and my parents as like number one cheerleaders, and now I have my husband being like, this is so amazing being another number one cheerleader. And I'm like, oh my gosh.

That's right.

You got everyone cheering your name. Hi, Catherine. That's great. Yeah, it's really exciting.

I'm curious about the thing that's been the hardest for you to forgive in your life.

I think there have been a variety of different moments where I've struggled with forgiveness. I would say in my 20s, I definitely struggled with forgiveness and became really interested in it because I think when I went through high school, you can go through high school and not really understand forgiveness because it's high school and there are other things that are more important to you. And then when you kind of get into the real world, you start thinking about forgiveness in a different way and what role it plays in your life and what it means to you because what it means to you is something completely different than what it means to me and that's okay, but it's just interesting to me. And so I think when I was really struggling with it in a variety of different moments in my 20s, I was trying to find resources and tools to help me through that and figure out what forgiveness meant to me and how I was going to practice it. And I saw a lot of people that were older than me that had lived their lives and continued to live their lives not being able to practice forgiveness. And I was clear that I did not want that.

Like they were holding on to anger, resentment.

Yeah, and you could just tell that it was, you know, and that's again, their choice. And I'm never somebody who's gonna tell someone that they should forgive or not forgive. But I saw how people would carry around this anger and resentment and hostility about something that had happened either recently or years ago or it happened that involved somebody who wasn't even on this earth anymore and just still carried that. And so I found it really fascinating because I always thought growing up that forgiveness involved two people.

Like one person apologizing.

Yeah, or saying, can you forgive, please forgive me? And that you needed to wait for someone to say to you, please forgive me, will you forgive me? And then you could kind of embark on your forgiveness journey. And so I would kind of sit there and I would be like, When is that going to happen? Is that going to happen? Does the other person even care about it happening? And then I realized that if you sit around and wait for another person to ask for forgiveness, that you can be waiting a very long time. And also the biggest kind of takeaway that I had from this book was just that forgiveness is a gift that you give yourself and it's not about another person at all. which was very eye-opening for me. Sounds simple, but it was a big shift for me in my mind.

Was there a lesson you learned through resentment or anger or holding on to something with a breakup or whatever, something in politics in your 20s that you were like, this is not okay and this person hurt me or this situation frustrates me and I'm holding on. Was there something like that that.

I had a falling out with one of my close friends and that to me was really devastating and hard for me because I had friendships that I've had since I was little and you think of them, I call them history friendships and they stay forever because you have so much history and your relationships obviously as you get older change and you know what worked for you as a friend when you're 15 might not work for you at 25 and that's okay, but it was just an adjustment for me.

Yeah.

And I didn't realize that It's okay to not have those friendships for the rest of your life. So I was holding on to that. And when it just wasn't working, it was really hard for me to be able to release that. So you're holding on to the, you're.

Frustrated with the person, you're frustrated with yourself. I was holding on to the friendship.

Because I was like, this is so cool if I were to have, because also as girls, you're younger and you're like, I'm gonna make a best friend in kindergarten and then we're gonna be at each other's weddings and we're gonna have kids together. you- Be on the same block, you know? Yeah, exactly. And so when I kind of had a moment where that wasn't necessarily gonna be the case, it was kind of, it was devastating to me. And also, when I started writing this book, I had thought like, oh, I'm good with forgiveness there, and, you know, I've been able to practice it. And what I very quickly realized, which is, you know, God works in mysterious ways, When I was working on this book in the very beginning, I had moments where I was tested with my ability to actually forgive.

Give me an example.

Well, I would run into certain people that I thought that I had forgiven, and I would still have that anxious, nervous feeling, and I realized that's a problem, and I need to go back and figure out, have I forgiven that person? No. so let me go back and actually do the work. So really for me, writing this book was an experience where I was trying to talk to people and get advice for myself. And I write about being a student of forgiveness and also I will continue to be a student of forgiveness and a fellow struggler with forgiveness because for some people it's a one and done thing and for other people like myself, it's an ongoing journey. And I think forgiveness is the work of a lifetime. And so in this process of writing this book, it was a lot of that, of kind of going, which was cool because it was, you know, I kind of went into it and I was like, I'm good.

I'm good. Let me do this for other people.

Yeah. And then I was like, okay, well I'm actually doing it.

How many people would you say, you don't have to say their names, but how many people would you say, since the beginning of writing this, book to the finish of it that you had to go back and forgive? Was it like a couple people? Was it 20?

Yeah, probably, no, not 20.

I don't know, it was like, what a- you- wanted to do a cover, you know?

Yeah, I mean it wasn't necessarily going back and even having conversations with the people. It was really actually looking at my role in situations.

You mean how you might have hurt them?

I mean it could be for sure, but I think for me it was, what was I still holding on to? Why wasn't that something that I was completely completely over what was the work that I needed to go back and do. What was, you know, what is the work of forgiveness that I needed to go back and let that go? Because, you know, as you see in this book, there are people who talk so beautifully of this feeling of all of a sudden having this sense of freedom from a situation or a person or an incident from their past, and it being this, you know, this huge moment for them. And so when I was able to, when I would run into, you know, someone and I would have that feeling, I was like, that's not done yet. And I need to go back and actually figure out what that's about.

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It's tanks host of the it's me, tanks podcast. Join me weekly on it's me, tanks as I dive into topics like relationships, why it's okay to feel lonely, fighting summer comparison and pop culture's hottest takes. I don't shy away from getting candid about my personal experiences, and I want to share all the advice I have learned with you. I'm even joined by some of my friends like Claudia Ashray, Connor Wood and Amanda Hirsch each Friday for our new office hours episodes. You can listen to It's Me, Taylor every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show.

So you don't miss an episode. So what's the work you would do if you saw someone that you thought you forgave or, eh, it wasn't a big deal or I let it go? Yeah. What was the exact work that you personally did in the last year with.

That one person that you're talking about? Well, it was a lot of, I mean, it didn't even happen in the past year. It was, you know, when I first started writing the books, like almost two and a half years ago. Gotcha, gotcha. And it was like kind of the last final bit of forgiveness because I had done a lot of that work. You know, I would go to church and I would talk to the priest from my childhood church that I still go to, and I would go to therapy, which was amazing for me, and I would go and talk to other people, like friends and other people who I wanted to know about their forgiveness journey. And that is what really ended up helping me, is that I would talk to other people and I would hear what they, what their experiences were. And then I was able to kind of go back to my own story and say like, okay, well I could work through that in my head and be able to, you know, I think time helps a lot also with certain situations.

I'm curious about this. How long do you think it takes to fully forgive, no matter what the anger or resentment or crime was committed? How long do you think?

Everyone is different. And that's really what this book has shown me. And I thought going into it, someone would say to me, if you're not done by a year, you gotta wrap it up.

Something's wrong, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Let's get to the point. But what I realized is for some people, like Debra Copaken talks in her section in my book about practicing forgiveness with a man who raped her when she was in college. that was 30 years later that she wrote a letter to him and still, yeah. And that was it for her, you know? When she sent that email to that person, she was done. And so, I think it showed me that, and then for other people, you know, you talk to Polly Shepherd, who was in the Charleston church shooting, and then you talk to, you know, Scarlett Lewis, who lost her son, Jesse, in the Sandy Hook shooting, and You talk to a lot of other people who experienced crazy things in their lives that are devastating and horrible. And you see that for some it's three months, for some it's 30 years, and for some it's still an ongoing journey. And I think for some people, and I was talking to Chris Williams, who I was mentioning to you earlier, who's in the book who lost his wife and two children in a car accident with a drunk driver. And he said in the moment that he woke up in the car accident.

He was in the car.

He was in the car, and his wife was in the front seat, and his three kids in the back and two of them were killed. And he remembers opening up his eyes and hearing a voice that said, Let it go.

No, he did not.

Yeah.

No, he did not.

So he said in that moment, he decided to let it go and to forgive.

In the moment, Exactly. With his wife dead next to him and his kid's dead.

Correct. And so, yes, because he heard a voice telling him to let it go. And so, I was talking to him earlier this week and I said to him, you know, I know you said that and it's just so inspiring and incredible, but like how did you do that? How did you not have anger at the person who, you know, just hit your car and caused this incredible loss for you? And he said, oh, I had moments. for sure when I was angry and sad and devastated and so hurt and really feeling that. But then I always, and I would allow myself to feel those feelings, which is the most important thing. But then I would come back and work my way back to my choice to forgive. And for him it was really about also feeling like when he sees his wife and kids one day in the future that he wants to make sure that they're proud of the way that he handled it.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, he's an incredible person and now has a beautiful friendship with the boy.

No, he does not. I'm like, oh my gosh.

He's an amazing person, I know.

That's crazy.

Yeah, so you see these people who, you know, have these stories of forgiveness and you really realize that there is not a time limit on forgiveness or a one and done thing. And just because you have moments, like if I say, I forgive you today, and tomorrow I wake up and I'm upset at you. That I can allow myself to feel those feelings and then it's all about how I bring myself back to living in a place of forgiveness.

The challenge is just holding on to it's only gonna hurt us more.

Correct.

Right?

Yes.

It's like we can choose to not forgive and hold on to it and be angry, but it's only gonna hold us back from actually pursuing a life that we enjoy, right?

Right.

From a life that we love, from a mission, a purpose, infecting other people with love as opposed to anger.

Right. I think that that, to me, was the biggest shift in my mind personally for my forgiveness journey was knowing that I don't have to wait for someone to ask me for forgiveness, and I don't have to wait for someone to feel sorry or be sorry, but I can decide to take my power back and take control of my life and my situation and realize that I don't want to walk around with this anger anymore, and I want to let that go. And so I need to go through my own journey with forgiveness in order to leave it in the past and let it go and be able to live my life moving forward free from that and being able to say that I've forgiven. Yeah.

What have you heard have been some of the best strategies and processes for forgiving? I heard someone say, they just said, let it go. They heard a voice, someone wrote a letter. therapy. What have you found is like good practice for yourself and for other people?

Well, I think number one, I think the most important thing is to just, when people are open to forgiveness, that's a huge step because there are so many people and I've known people in my own life who are very closed off to forgiveness.

I'll never forgive this person.

What they've done is, you know, unforgivable. Jinx. And you just, you see them, you see these people in the way that they live their lives and you're just, It's like, okay.

They're not happy though.

Yeah, but I think it's also like you can never tell somebody that they should forgive someone. And also, I also try to make it very clear that just because I wrote this book doesn't make me an expert on forgiveness. Like, I'm not an expert on forgiveness. I'm a student of forgiveness. And I'm a fellow struggler of forgiveness. And I just found the stories in this book and also the stories of other people to be incredibly helpful in my own life. And that's why I wanted to write the book, but I'm not a forgiveness expert by any means. So I think that other people's stories have been really helpful for a lot of people, including myself. Some people like to write a letter and send it. Some people like to write a letter and keep it to themselves. And some people like to go and confront the person, and that's therapeutic for them. Other people, you know, are in situations where they can't confront the person because they're not here on this earth anymore. And I think a big theme in the book though is faith. People who did not have faith before, having some sort of faith as they go through this journey. And some people are able to go through their forgiveness journey and not have faith, and that's okay. But I found faith to be a common theme that comes up with- Faith in what sense?

Just like, okay, have faith that this is happening for a reason, have faith that there's a There's something greater for me from this lesson.

Yeah, I think it's really just having faith that you might see that person again, having faith that this is, you know, this is gonna be your work moving forward in your life, having faith that, you know, you couldn't have done anything to impact what had happened. Faith is, or having, you know, faith and trust in a higher power that you'll be okay and that you'll get through whatever you're going through. Because I think sometimes when you are going through something really impossibly hard and challenging and you feel alone in that journey to have faith that there's a greater power that's watching out for you and that is able to say to you like, I got you. That is a reassuring feeling.

I feel like you have this amazing family bond and you've had a lot of friends growing up and you've also grown up in the public eye. And so I feel like people know who you are and you've been around a lot of people. When is the time you felt the most alone in your life?

I don't know if you feel alone in a large family ever.

I don't know. I've got three older siblings and there's six of us and I felt alone a lot.

Yeah, that's true. I mean, I think like my, I feel so blessed that I'm able to be so close to every single one of my siblings. Like I, you know, my sister and I are, she likes to be very, make sure that I point out that we're 19 months apart and not 18. So we're, you're the oldest, right? I'm the oldest, and then my sister Christina, and we're very close. 19 months apart, is it? 19 months apart. And then, you know, Patrick and Christopher, Patrick is, you know, right after Christina, and then Christopher and I are eight years apart. And, and so I don't know that, I think in certain situations I felt alone with maybe going through certain things that maybe they hadn't gone through. But I have to say that my parents did, and also my grandparents, because we have a very large family. But my parents have done an incredible job making sure from when we were very little that we knew that we always had each other. And that at the end of the day, friends are gonna come and go, people will come and go, but our siblings are the people that will always be there. And that that's a beautiful thing and to nurture those relationships and to be able to fight for them, to be able to have great conversations to make them stronger. And as you get older, they change and they become, you know, for me, they've become stronger and so amazing to to see everybody growing up and to go through different life events together. And so I feel so lucky and blessed every single day that I'm able to have my people.

That's good. You don't feel too alone. That's good. What is the thing that brings you the most anger on a day-to-day basis in the world or situations that you see? Is there anything that creates anger inside of you?

I'm sure, yeah, there are definitely things that create anger. I feel like When people don't want to help others and make the world a better place, that upsets me. Makes me sad more than angry, because I feel like we all have the ability to make this crazy world a better and kinder place. And also through writing this book and also through talking, you know, to you about your story and other people in the book, I think The biggest sense of awareness that I've gained is that you never know what another person is going through, even if it might look pretty on the outside.

On Instagram.

On social media. But that if we can treat each other and live life with just a little bit more kindness and empathy and compassion, that I feel like the world would be so much nicer.

Yeah, it's true. And what have animals taught you about forgiveness?

Oh my god, they're the most forgiving. There's endless love and constantly just someone that will come and lick you and greet you no matter what you look like, what you've done in your life, what you have done that day. And for me, my dog Maverick and also the animals that I've had growing up have taught me so much about unconditional love. unconditional love and responsibility, but also just about, just really about love and connection, I think, throughout all phases of my life. And so I feel very passionate about animals.

Yeah. Yeah.

You did a podcast about animals, too, right?

I did. I did do a podcast because everybody loves to talk about their animals.

Right?

Gosh, you can book anyone who's got a dog.

I know.

Or a cat or a bird or anything.

Lizard.

Everyone loves to talk about animals.

You just have one dog?

I have my dog Maverick, and then we have our family dog, Champ, and they're like two partners in crime. And then I grew up with a ton of animals because I would, you know, I would see a pig that needed a home and then bring it home. You bring it home? Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

And then I would find ducks that needed homes and bring them home. Birds and squirrels and everything. Birds, I was never, my brother Patrick was very into birds. I was never a bird person. person, but I would get, you know, rabbits and a miniature pony. And I grew up riding horses, so I was like, let's all be together and grow up on a farm and.

In Bruntwood and, you know. Sure.

Why don't you have an animal sanctuary now? I feel like you should have one. I'm, that's on my list of things to do. Okay. In the backyard. For this book tour, I'll be slowly turning my mom's backyard, our backyard.

Yeah. I like to have like a variety of places with animals. Okay, I like this.

It's true.

When you see something that angers you now or frustrates you, whether it's politics or coronavirus or whatever it is, something that frustrates you.

Yes, it doesn't anger me, it terrifies me.

Okay, well you see something that you feel like there's harm in the world that's happening, right? Sex trafficking, whatever it is, animal cruelty, when you see this, how do you forgive quickly or how do you learn to forgive? Like if something's out there in the world, like a friend of mine has this, Instagram account that's bringing awareness to animals that are being treated really poorly around the world. And it gets me like sad and angry. How does someone, when they see something online, learn to forgive quicker as opposed to hold on to it for too long, to let it ruin their day?

I don't know if it's necessarily about forgiveness as much as it is about a sense of feeling helpless because I think that's where we feel most helpless is when we see things and we don't know what to do to make a difference. So I always try, you know, whether it's with, you know, dogs that need homes or cats that need homes or whatever the work is that I'm trying to talk about or if I see something that, you know, that really upsets me.

Injustice or something, yeah.

Yeah, or, you know, I also often think of my grandma who saw how people with intellectual disabilities were being treated and it made her so angry and because of that she created the Special Olympics. And so I think-- which is amazing.

Yeah.

It's an incredible thing. So I think, you know, I grew up with that lesson that if there's something that upsets you and it's something that you're passionate about, then go fix it and go make a difference. And so I think with today, whether it's someone's Instagram account or seeing something on the news or whatever it is and you see something that upsets you, it's about finding ways to help be the change in that. And whether it's an organization that you go volunteer at, if it's donating money, supplies, whatever that is, that helps people, I think, feel less helpless in a situation. Because I think a lot of what's going on in the world leaves people feeling like, you know, like with the environment, it's like, well, what can I do? I can recycle and I cannot use straws.

Can I make an impact?

Exactly. But it's just, I think, important for people to know that every single person can make an impact and it's about actually executing that.

What's the greater gift when someone who's done the wrong act hurts you, upsets you, whatever it may be, they've done the thing that someone is angry about? What's the greater gift? When they say, you know what? You're right. I'm sorry. I messed up. What I did was horrible. It was a bad thing, I'm sorry. Is the greater gift, the person saying I'm sorry, even if they don't forgive them, or is it the person actually forgiving them whether they say I'm sorry or not?

Well, I think based on my understanding of forgiveness for myself and also after doing this book, is that it's kind of an additional great thing if someone can come to you and say, I'm so sorry for what I've done. what I did was terrible and I've learned from it and that's a beautiful, amazing moment. A lot of people don't get that. They don't do that. Not only do people not do it, but they don't get it. They don't receive that from somebody that they need to forgive or that has hurt them or hardened them in some way. So, I think if you're able to get that, that's an incredible thing.

What if they give that and they get that and they still don't forgive?

That's their problem, not yours. It was interesting because we were at one of my mom's Sunday family dinners My mom had Rabbi Leder over for dinner. He's an incredible person. And he was talking to me about forgiveness in Judaism. And I love hearing different faiths on forgiveness and different people's view of forgiveness. And he said to me that in Judaism, that if you ask for forgiveness, if I've done something wrong to you and I ask you for forgiveness three times, saying to you, Please forgive me. I won't do it again. And I've learned from my behavior and you don't forgive me, then that burden is on you now. Wow. So I thought that was interesting because I think like, you know, if I ask you for forgiveness for something that I've done and you say, I'm not forgiving you, like, you know, screw you, I'm not gonna do that, then that just shows you that forgiveness is about then I need to walk away from that and know that I can't do anything to change your mind.

I've done my best. I've said I'm sorry.

And I need to now forgive myself. And I need to do the work to forgive myself.

So hard.

I know. It's very hard. But that's why it's so interesting to me, is because it's so complicated. It's, you know, a really... Is there.

Anything you haven't forgiven yourself for yet?

Myself? I don't think so.

For holding on to something or hurting someone else or...

I try not to live in that mindset because I think that It just, you carry, I carry around, I would carry around a lot of anger and anxiety and resentment. And my goal with practicing forgiveness in my life is to free myself from that. And of course, I have moments where I'll get angry and upset about something and that's okay. But I think it's always about being gentle with ourselves as we go through moments of feeling angry or resentful. and being gentle with ourselves as we bring ourselves back to living from a place of forgiveness.

You are such a light, Catherine.

Oh, thank you. You're such a light.

You're like, I'm trying to find, like, is there anything wrong with you? I feel like I have so many defects and so many challenges in my life. And I'm like, is there anything wrong with Catherine where she forgives everyone, she doesn't hold on to any anger?

I don't forgive everyone.

You don't?

No.

What I'm trying to say is, and this is super important, and I'm glad you just said that, thank you. I've been able- Beam of golden light.

Just radiating, there's no pain.

No, I've definitely experienced in my life a huge amount of pain, struggle, hurt, sadness in my life. And a lot of that I felt was worked through in my forgiveness journey. I have been able to practice forgiveness, most importantly. And I'm so grateful for that because through writing this book and through my journey of interviewing people and writing this book and talking to people about forgiveness, I can happily say that I've been able to forgive in my life. Do I know that moving forward in my life that I will have moments where I struggle with forgiveness again? 100%. I know that. My mom likes to constantly remind me of that as well because To say at 30, I'm good with forgiveness.

You don't have kids yet, you don't have this.

No. And I will go through life and I will have moments where I struggle with forgiveness and I can struggle with it for five years, 10 years longer. But my hope is that because I wrote this book and because I'm able to talk to people about their forgiveness journey, that when I'm in those moments of struggling with forgiveness, that I will be able to to go back and draw inspiration from their stories, from other people's stories to help pull me through.

Yeah.

So what's up, podcast listeners? It's tanks, host of the it's me, tanks podcast. Join me weekly on it's me, tanks as I dive into topics like relationships, why it's okay to feel lonely, fighting summer comparison, and pop culture's hottest takes. I don't shy away from getting candid about my personal experiences, and I want to share all the advice I have learned with you. I'm even joined by some of my friends like Claudia ashre, Connor Wood, and Amanda Hirsch Friday for our new Office Hours episodes. You can listen to It's Me, Tank's every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, wherever you listen to podcasts.

And don't forget to follow the show so you don't miss an episode. It's not that I don't, I have been able to forgive every single person and I, that I am going to always be able to forgive every person and that I've, you know, never struggled or had pain or anything like that. 'cause that's not true at all. I have. And there are still people that I'm struggling with forgiveness, and there are some people that I've been able to forgive. And I think that that is part of my journey in my life, and it definitely sparked why I wrote this book and my interest in forgiveness. And I know that moving forward in life, I will still have those moments, and I'll still be able to hopefully look back at this book and look back at conversations like this and say, okay, where can I bring myself back to a place where I feel good? Yeah.

And what's your greatest challenge right now in your life?

I think, I don't know if it's a challenge as much as it is, I would say the thing that I'm most focused on right now is the launch of this book and doing a book tour and-- With coronavirus. With it just running rampant. No, but I think I look at it as an exciting challenge because my goal is to obviously be able to go and talk about this book on a book tour and speak about forgiveness. But my biggest goal is to be able to get this message and book in as many people's hands as possible so they can be able to practice forgiveness in their own lives. So I look at it as a fun challenge, like how can I spread this message. It's something I'm super passionate about. I want to get it out. I want to talk to as many people as I possibly can. So, yeah.

What do you think is your greatest opportunity for growth for yourself personally? Beyond the book and...

I look at every single day as being able to have opportunity for growth in every area. I think if it's, you know, in my relationships, in work, in every single thing that I do, I try to find ways where I can grow and learn. And I'm just somebody who likes to do better, be better, find ways to grow, learn, educate myself, hear from other people. That really is something that- Is there.

Anything specific you're working on that you're like, okay, I could really grow in this area of my life spiritually? Really? What's the biggest challenge right now? What's the biggest struggle?

Probably being present, I think in a book tour everything gets a little crazy. So being present was one of my New Year's resolutions to be present, to be more present and to practice meditation every single day. And that's-- so you've been practicing every day? Yes, and it's, you think like, oh, it's 10 minutes. It's not gonna-- It still takes time.

To sit down and do it.

It takes time, but it ends up benefiting you and I've definitely had days where I haven't done it. but I try to come back to it being a big goal for myself because I think that today everything is so, you know, we're on our phones all the time. We're driving, we're in traffic, you know, we're angry, somebody cut us off. There's all of that. And so I think it's about, you know, what you can do to start your day off on the right foot that can prepare you for all of the craziness to come in your day.

Yeah.

So that's a big goal of mine.

Yeah, it's great. This question is called the Three Truths. I asked everyone this at the end of the interviews. So imagine you've accomplished everything in your life that you can dream of for the rest of your life. You have the biggest animal sanctuary in the world with millions of dogs happy, jumping, licking each other. You have anything you want to do. You've written every book on every challenge in the world. You've got this beautiful family, marriage, whatever it is is your dream, you've accomplished it. But at some point in your life, you've got to go to the next place. Your body's got to leave, you die, you're gone from this world, right?

Wow.

It could be 300 years, could be whatever. But at some point, you gotta call it quits, okay? And you've got to take everything with you. So this book you've written, all your messages in the world, the content you put out there, this Interview, it goes with you to the next place. So no one has access to your information anymore. Your wisdom. Okay? It's a hypothetical question.

It's very deep.

But imagine you get to share three final truths with the world. From all the lessons you've learned of your 300 plus years of life, and you get to share three final lessons for all of us to live by, to be inspired by, and these would be the things that we can remember you by. Three truths, three lessons. What would you say are yours without being prepared?

Okay, well, I'm definitely not prepared, so let me, I would say number one, family is the most important.

Mm-. Why?

Because if you can do that well, you're good.

Okay, that's number one.

Number two, I'm trying to think if I had like a slew of children, what I would want them to know.

What would you share with them, yeah?

I would say to make a difference in the world, make the world a better place. That's what my grandma always taught me. And then three, I think this past year, actually two years, I found one of the most important things that I try to remind myself every single day. is to interact with people and lead with compassion. And I think that that has turned out to make a huge difference when we get frustrated, when we get irritated, even with people that we love and are close to, or people we don't know at all. That coming back to a place of love and compassion has been tremendously helpful in my life and I think I would tell that to to others as well just because I think that it's really needed right now.

Yeah.

And what would you say to your 12-year-old self going to be a teenager with all the teenage challenges that happen for young girls? What would you say to yourself and to all the the young girls who maybe are going through lots of challenges, insecurities, conflicts, boy issues, all that stuff. Puberty. What advice would you have for.

I would say every single person that you look up to and admire has gone through the exact same thing. It's gonna be okay.

It's gonna be okay.

Yeah. I think, like, for me, when I look back at my 12 year old self and I was so Innocent and.

Pure and... Before you cared about boys, for sure.

And I just, all I did was want to sit with my horse in my horse's stall all day long and brush my horse's hair.

No way, yeah.

That's all I wanted to do.

You didn't care about anything else? The way you looked?

It was just like what I wanted to do and I, all I did was spend time with my family and As I got older, people would make fun of me for that.

Really?

Like, oh, all you want to do is spend time with your family, and all you want to do is ride your horse. It brings you joy, though. It does, but then you have peer pressure, and then you want to go out, and you want to have fun, and do all things. And so I think if I had to look back and say, tell my 12-year-old self, I would say that, that every single person that I would look up to, whether it was my mom or other people or Beyonce, I would say that everyone has been there. And to know that you're gonna be able to make it through, to stay true to yourself, your beliefs, and also know that it's okay if you succumb to peer pressure a couple of times and your peers make you fall off that it's okay. Be gentle with yourself. Yeah.

Who's your biggest inspiration in the world right now?

My biggest inspiration in the world right now, today, so early in the morning.

Who do you admire outside of family?

Who do you admire? Who do you respect?

Outside of family.

Outside of family.

Yeah.

Who do you, who's like a big inspiration for you in the world? Who's doing stuff that lights you up that inspires you.

I mean, I always go to.

I.

Always would just like naturally fall back to Beyonce as being my inspiration. Why Beyonce? Just because I think that she's such a woman, you know? Like she's, and she's inspiring and I think the way that she's handled her family dynamics and career and balancing everything has been really inspiring. But I also truly, especially from doing this book, I would say the people in the book are who inspire me every day right now. I always will love Beyonce, but I think for like right now, and especially because this book is really my focus, that the people in this book that are men, women, yourself included since you're in it, that everyone's stories and experiences with in life and also with forgiveness in general, that's what inspires me every day. And also makes me very emotional. Like, the first time I read my final, like, didn't need to edit anymore front to back of this book, I started crying because I was just like, because the book isn't about me. It's about everyone's stories that I talk to. So to be able to have that and to be proud of it and also to have everyone in the book feel proud of their section was really important to me and also really exciting.

You did a great job on this and thanks for including me in this. I've talked many, many times about my journey of forgiveness and I think people need to understand that is when you learn to forgive, it's the greatest gift you can give yourself because of the peace and the love you can come back to in yourself. Because when we hold on to anger, we really separate ourselves from love. We separate ourselves from connection, from intimacy, and we put a wall up with other people. It may not be the person that hurt us or that situation. So this is an amazing gift. Make sure you guys get it. The Gift of Forgiveness, inspiring stories from those who have overcome the unforgivable. It's out right now. They can get it online, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, everywhere. specific site they can go to for any additional resources?

Yeah, we're doing a book tour, so also the tour dates are on my Instagram, which is @CatherineSchwartzneGer, and then also on my website, which is catherineschwartzneGer.com, to come visit any tour dates that we're doing.

But.

We also have an amazing Facebook group of Forgiveness Ambassadors that have been truly having the most incredible stories and interactions with each other. And not like not crediting myself at all because I did not do anything. I just put everybody in a group together and the conversations that are happening with Stranger to Stranger about forgiveness.

Sharing how they're forgiving and what they're doing.

Or is what they're struggling with. Can anyone help me on this journey? Can someone advise me here? And I'm just like, the first time I went through and read it, I started crying because I was just like, how are people talking like this with people that they don't even know and might never know. How are people saying like, oh, I'm really struggling to forgive this person in my life right now? Does anybody have any ideas on how I can get help through that and just create this incredible support system on this Facebook page? So I also encourage people to join that Facebook page.

What's it called?

It's just Forgiveness Ambassadors and it's the gift of forgiveness and it's been a beautiful experience.

That's amazing. And you have a personal website too?

Yeah, catherineschwarzenegger.com is like the personal website and Facebook page is the same.

Where they can learn more about you and speaking opportunities, get the book, anything else you're up to.

Exactly.

The farm you're building in the future.

For all the animals and all the.

Lizards and the many horses and everything. I love it. I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Catherine, for literally you're just a light. Like sitting here, you're a light of love. And I really acknowledge you for everything you've been through in your life to want to continue to serve and give and be a light to other people, whether it's through your own experience or sharing other people's experiences and doing the work. I think you don't have to do this type of stuff, but the fact that you do, it's really impressive for me. And I acknowledge you for constantly showing up with this just open heart and this. This light and love that you have. So I acknowledge you for.

Yeah.

For everything. Make sure you guys get this book. Follow you on Instagram. Catherine Schwarzenegger.

Yeah. You haven't added the prat to it, right?

You haven't added the actual scandal. Now. Okay. See you. And you also have a podcast on forgiveness with Headspace. And it's called the Gift of Forgiveness. So they can go and listen to it there. Where do they find it?

We're gonna be airing that probably in May. Okay, cool. So I'll be updating. Let's just follow you on Instagram. Yeah, and they'll be able to get more accurate updates as to when that will happen. But we have amazing people where we're continuing these conversations with you included. Yes, we're great. About forgiveness and about people's journeys and experiences. And some people from the book, other people who are not in the book. And my hope is that it will spark and ignite conversations between people about forgiveness and hopefully lead people to practice it in their own lives.

Powerful. Okay, final question. What's your definition of greatness?

My definition of greatness. Definition of greatness would probably be being with the people I love and doing what I love.

Mm. Thank you. Yes. Love it. Love it.

Flu and coronavirus all over my hands.

I'm sure you got wipes in your bag.

Yeah.

Sure I do.

Amazing.

I hope you enjoyed this episode with Catherine Schwarzenegger Pratt. If you did, make sure to tag her over on Instagram at Catherine Schwarzenegger. Make sure to check out her book, the Gift of Forgiveness. And if this is your first time here, please subscribe to the School of Greatness podcast and leave us a review. Let us know what you thought about this specific interview and episode with Catherine, as I'm sure she would love to know what you thought about this as well over on Instagram.

Share this with a friend over there.

Tag us on your stories. I'm @LewisHowes as well over there. I love this quote that we talked about at the beginning. Gani said, the weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is an attribute of the strong. and Oprah said, True forgiveness is when you can say thank you for that experience. Again, you have the power in any moment to forgive someone who's done something wrong to you, who's hurt you, who's said something, did something, didn't do something, and you also have the power to forgive over time. You know, it took me 25 years to truly let go of something that someone did to me when I was a child. It took me a long time to learn that process. And don't beat yourself up if it's taking you a long time. It's okay. We're all on our own journey and you're allowed to forgive in your own timeline. Just know that when you hold on to something, you hurt yourself more than the other person. And I don't want you to hurt yourself anymore. So start to learn to forgive if you can. It's a powerful practice and I highly recommend I appreciate you for being here. I love you so very much. You know what time it is? It's time to go out there and do something great.

What's up, podcast listeners? It's tanks, host of the it's me, tanks podcast. Join me weekly on it's me, tanks as I dive into topics like relationships, why it's okay to feel lonely, fighting summer comparison and pop culture. hottest takes. I don't shy away from getting candid about my personal experiences, and I want to share all the advice I have learned with you. I'm even joined by some of my friends, like Claudia Ashre, Connor Wood and Amanda Hirsch each Friday for our new office hours episodes. You can listen to it's me, tanks every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, wherever you listen to podcasts.

And don't forget to follow the show.

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