932 Dr. Nicole LePera on Relationships, Boundaries, and Childhood Trauma

This is episode number 932 with Dr. Nicole Lupera. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Renee Brown said, daring to set boundaries is about having the courage to love ourselves even when we risk disappointing others. And Oscar Wilde said, to love oneself is the beginning of a lifelong romance. I am so excited that you're here because I have become obsessed with the content of Dr. Nicole the Paris since I discovered her about a year ago, I guess it was. And we had her on about six months ago and this episode blew up. I mean it just helped so many people create boundaries. It helped them heal, it helped them understand relationships, it helped them understand themselves, it helped them understand mental health and all these different things that we struggle with as human beings and go throughout this world trying to figure out how to be the best human being we can be and how to interact with other human beings who are on their own journey. And if you don't know who Dr. Nicola Pera is, she's a holistic psychologist from Philadelphia who's now in la. I'm super pumped that she's closer now. And she believes that mental wellness is for everyone. She evolved her more traditional training from Cornell University and the New School to one that acknowledges the connection between the mind and the body. And Dr. Lapera views mental and physical struggles from a whole person perspective and works to identify the underlying physical and emotional caus. Now she understands that balance is an integral part of wellness and empowers individuals to heal themselves, supporting them on their wellness journey. And she founded the Mindful Healing center in Center City Philadelphia where she worked with individuals, couples and families taking gut health, sleep movement, cellular health, belief and mindfulness into treatment. And I love all the things she talks about if you don't follow her on Instagram. She is such an inspiration. And in this interview we talk about, Nicole gives us an update from her last interview where she set boundaries with her parents and stopped speaking with them completely. And what has come up since, since that time she breaks down the pyramid of self healing. This blew my mind. I loved how she walked through this pyramid, this foundational pyramid that if we all follow through this, we can really start to heal ourselves. We break down normal things in relationships that we think as also could be problems for us. When a lot of people think that like hey, this is boring. Is this normal? And we break this down. We talk about how to say no without apologizing for yourself. And she breaks down childhood trauma in ways that are familiar and unfamiliar for most of us. This and so much more. I am so excited you have the power and the opportunity to really help and change someone's life today. Share this out with a friend Lewishouse.com 932 is the link you can truly make an impact on someone's life. Think about someone that you care about, a friend, a family member, a colleague, someone that you're in a great relationship with, that you want to see improve and really heal from certain things in their life at any point. Share this out when you're listening to this episode, you truly can make a big impact in someone's life when you do. And the link is Lewishous.com932 and now I am so excited about this. Let's get into this episode with the one, the only Dr. Nicole Lapera. 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We've got the inspiring Dr. Nicole Lapera in the house. Good to see you.

Good to see you.

Super pumped about this. Second time on you were on six months ago and people just needed the information so much they're eating it up. People are struggling in a lot of areas of their life. You are helping them in so many different ways. So we've got you back on. And I'm just pumped about this because you were just saying this interview we did last time, so many people resonated with it in a big way from the video, the audio. A lot of people are messaging about it and same for us. So I was like we got to do more. We should do like a series, we should do something. And you're back here. So I'm excited. And what's it been like in the last year for you? Because I think originally, what was it at the beginning of last year you had a very small following. Not small, but you maybe 100,000 followers maybe, right? I don't know. Where were you at in January 2020?

January last year probably around that 2,200 happened pretty quickly. I can't remember when I hit the million because I'm now nearing 2 million. It's mind blowing to me.

But here's the thing. There's a lot of other people that are trying to do what you're doing, doing, but they're not growing as fast. Is there a reason for that, do you think? Like there's a lot of other therapists that are trying to copy your stuff or just trying to like be inspired by it and do their own thing, but they're not really growing the way that you're growing. Why is it what you're doing is taking off, whereas it's not for other people in the same way? What do you think that is?

Well, without knowing I Think kind of what other people are doing or not doing. I think why I'm taking off and have taken off quite quickly. I mean, numbers started to grow fairly quickly, surprisingly so upon my entry online. And the way I understand it is just, I think the universality of it. The fact that what I'm talking about is so much resonating. Whether or not I'm talking about all of the areas in which I've been stuck, whether I'm sharing my own background and conditioning and experiences, or whether I'm talking about the process of healing and all that comes with that, I think in my whole story, I guess I should say there's just points that I think is so universally relatable. And when you can see yourself and hear yourself and feel yourself in another human, you become attracted to wanting to hear more, to feeling understood. And then when I shift and I start to talk about the work and the healing I've done, I mean, I feel like that can be an empowering. So I don't know, kind of how something about my topic is very. It's global. It's a big topic. I think about that often.

Yeah. Mental health, self healing, trauma.

I'm not like super niche down where I just talk about, you know, maybe boundaries and that's it. So day in and day, I'm talking about boundaries. You know, I think that with my scope, you're gonna find, like I was saying, the part of my story or my journey that resonates, and then you're gonna become likely to connect.

And for those who don't know the main parts of your story, what are the. What are the parts of your story that really resonate with people? You think? Yeah, and I want people to go listen to the last interview where we talk more about it. But for a recap, what's the main parts of your story that you talk about you've had to heal. That is a reflection of what a lot of people are going through.

Yeah.

What is that?

Well, the first word that I think we, most of us can relate to is the word stuck, is being stuck in our lives. Watching yourself live patterns, whether or not they're in your daily behaviors or patterns in your thinking mind or just being stuck in certain specific feelings. Maybe a lot of us, and a lot of us do, logically, we're insightful. Maybe a lot of us have been in treatment, in therapy, and we might know a way out or think we know a way out, yet we still feel stuck. I felt that my whole life, having clocked many hours in My individual work before I shifted the way I practice, but with individual patients, clients, same thing. That word would come up time and time again.

You felt stuck.

I feel stuck. I feel stuck. I maybe thought I had the tools to change, thought I had the insight to change, couldn't implement them.

And you're a therapist.

And I'm a therapist. Now fast forward. I'm seeing same stories coming in week after week with my clients. Quite literally the same stories. Here's the issue I had with my partner. Okay, we'll explore it insightfully. Maybe we'll even come up with a game plan of how to choose a new response in this future fight that of course is going to happen. Flash forward to that next week. Same fight, Groundhog Day, verbatim.

So you would give. Because I hear this in therapy a lot. It's like, okay, when there's a breakdown or a fight, the therapist will give a tool to try to like defuse a fight or to say, okay, let's take 10 seconds of a breathing together or let's step out of the room and then come back together. We love our timeouts, whatever it is, right? There's like different tools you can use in an argument or a fight with a loved one or a friend or anything like that. But why don't they seem to work most the time? Why is it? Why don't they work?

When we're having that conversation about what to do next, we're in a part of our brain where consciousness lives. This is where we can be separate from ourself, our thoughts, our feelings. Where I do my little like spotlight, where we're like this little observational spotlight of ourselves. We have access to logic, to long term planning. That's the part of our brain that makes us human. This ability to be conscious, to observe ourselves, to think about things, thought, beautiful power and gift that we have.

But we're not able to do that in a stressful moment.

Those are the moments that we're having this conversation. So a lot of therapy sessions take place very consciously. We're here, calm. The ambiance of most therapy rooms is very calming. You know, we're in that nice balanced place and so we get it. But you're right, when we get into the moments where we need to use it, we're now functioning from a lower part of our brain called the subconscious, which is part of our past. I talk a lot about the subconscious as the means in which we literally carry our past where all of our wounds live and what causes those emotional reactions. So even if I've trouble if I know what I'm going to do differently. We're going to, hey, you're my partner. And we love this idea of timeout. So when things get escalated, we're going to time out. Chances are when an emotion is touched in one or both of us, we're shifting right back down to that emotional lower center of our brain and that's going to dictate what we do. And we're probably gonna do the same things that we always do when we're upset.

React, scream, scream, yell, run away, tantrum.

I dissociate. I love that one myself.

Is that what you do?

Oh, I used to be the queen. I used to call it my spaceship. I used to go away and I got very good at not appearing away so I could still continue, but emotionally I was so disconnected from myself the moment, my feelings.

So you'd be physically there, but not emotionally and mentally. You would just disconnect. Emotionally, disconnect.

So I'd be very calm talking or in appearance, because I was.

I don't care. I don't care.

Down here. There might have been a whole multitude of feelings bubbling up, but that was too much, too overwhelming.

Okay. So these tools can only work to a certain point. It seems like based on your experience of working with a lot of people one on one and seeing them come back. Okay, we tried timeout, we tried this. So it seems like they only work to a certain point of our ability to be conscious of the moment. Right? Yes. Is that true?

Yeah. Consciousness is where we are granted choice. Otherwise that subconscious is going to run those same patterns, behavioral, emotional.

And it's almost like we have no choice.

We have no choice. We are, we're disempowered. We are. You'll hear me often talk about we come, we become reactive to the environment. We live a reactive life toward the environment. As in things happen in our world. And I only react in the same way, typically. And that's. It makes us feel very powerless, very victimized. We are a victim of circumstance in that way.

So how do we change that powerless feeling that.

Yeah, we have to practice consciousness. We really have to. I mean, change begins when you practice being conscious. Practice showing up, practice observing yourself, practice observing all of the patterns, not just.

When it's calm, but when it's chaotic.

I actually don't suggest you begin to practice when it's chaotic. Practice when it's calm.

Got you.

So that you can practice when it's chaotic.

So give me an example. Like when it's calm. How would you be responding in a certain way of love or peace as opposed to hysteria? What would that be like?

I reframed that because I think it's really important.

If you're not being triggered, then how do you practice?

Exactly. And a lot of us wait because, oh, I only have an issue when I'm triggered. So I'm going to wait to use this new tool then. So we can't just wait till then because we're not going to use something new. Then we're going to do the thing that was familiar then. So I really am. I harbor on the point of consistency and just developing a consistent practice of what we're talking about, of consciousness all of the time. So that when you really need to be observational of yourself to see why, you know, that dish that was left out was so incensing, and to create that space then, so that dish can still be there. I still can feel incensed by it because that doesn't go away right away. But I might not throw it at my partner or knock it on the floor. You know, I might choose a different response. So it's really a gradual evolution, but it starts by practicing consistently all of the time, starting in small moments, of course, because I'm the biggest believer in too much change too quickly overwhelms us.

Right.

So you're not going to. Your intention isn't going to be, oh, I'm completely unconscious, so now I'm just going to start being completely conscious starting tomorrow. No, it's not going to happen. You're going to start to be conscious in one moment in your day for a good long string of days. And then maybe you're gonna try to do it for two moments in your day and then three.

I tell you, I mean, my. My girlfriend moved in a couple months ago, and I'm so used to a certain routine every single day of the weight. I like things. Right. And so when she moved in with our dog, it was like I had to learn so many new ways of living in my space, in our space now. And I love to make the bed right away. Right after I get up, she gets up. I get up early, and I go to the gym, and I like to make my bed right away. She likes to sleep in a little longer and doesn't like to make the bed as quickly. And I had to learn because we were making the bed quickly. And then it's like not being mad.

I'm sure you're making the bed over top of her while she's.

I know. I Want to be. I want to be. But I had to, like, just learn to accept certain changes without reacting and being like, okay. Even though I'm used to a certain way all the time, am I okay with not doing this or it not being done the way I want it to be? Now I'm in a new relationship, and I've been able to observe and practice without getting upset or without getting mad, being like, okay, this is how it's going to be. And if I want it to be done a certain way, I can make a request, I can wait till she wakes up, and then I can do it myself, or whatever it may be. We can create some new type of relationship around it, but I need to be willing to evolve and change as well. I'm not always going to get everything that I want all the time in an intimate relationship. Is that true?

Yeah, that's true. You also highlighted something very real, which is that it doesn't mean that right away you're right on board.

Right.

You know, right away you might wish that she was up and your bed was made. And that's okay. We shame ourselves as humans because if we have that old reaction or assign that old meaning, immediately we become shameful. Oh, I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't. It doesn't matter. I mean, we're gonna have those thoughts. They're gonna stick around for a while. We're gonna have those feelings even. They're gonna stick around for. For a while. But we can start to create new choices. And we don't have to feel badly about desiring to live those old familiar patterns. It's actually part of being human.

I feel like I'm so proud of myself in the last few months. Cause my girlfriend moved in and it was stressful. The first couple months was there were so many beautiful days. But then there was, like, things that would trigger her, that then would trigger me and.

Cause typically, how it happens in the couple.

She's a passionate Latina and she likes things her way too, so. So I could have. I remember just thinking to myself, like, I could easily go back into a pattern of trauma, resentment, feeling abused, not feeling a sense of fairness, whatever my childhood traumas were. And there were a couple times where I did argue from that place. And I realized, this is not going to work. If I come from this place, this relationship will not thrive. And I'm not saying it's okay for her to come from that place of we're working on things together. But I just realized, like, is it better for me to be right and try to prove my point and argue something? Or is it better to just listen? Love come from a place of peace in that moment and then reflect and talk about it later, like, the next day. Even though I want answers now, I want to resolve this right now. Here's why I'm right. I want to defend my point, but it's been a beautiful shift in my partner since I've been doing that and just letting my ego go of, like, needing to be a writer of a certain situation. It's amazing. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's amazing the amount of love. And I just automatically switch to appreciation right when there's a trigger or something. I'm just like, I appreciate you so much. You're right about that. I'm gonna work on this more. Even if she's not 100% right, I'm just like, you're right about this, and I can empathize with this. And it's been incredible. It's so hard to do unless you practice. And so what I do every morning is I just shower with appreciation when it's calm, and I'm, like, already in that mode, and I just think that's a game changer. And I'm not saying I have it all figured out and I have this perfect relationship, but I hear so many people in relationships who struggle, and I asked them, I was like, when's the last time you texted what you appreciate about them?

Yeah. Or when's the last time the litany of what isn't appreciated, what could be done differently? Well, you said two, really, I think, beautiful pieces in that, which is that, I mean, first and foremost, I want to acknowledge you, Louis, because you changed, right? You didn't yet say partner change, Right? You said, I'm going to experiment with how I can have a new relationship with this experience so I can do differently. And a lot of us, when there's discomfort or conflict in a relationship, we. We do very quickly want the other person to change. This is back to that reactive way of living. Right. If the environment is affecting me negatively that we were describing earlier. So if you're my partner and you are the environment that's affecting me negatively, please change so that I can now feel better. But change comes within. I mean, so that was very beautiful that you owned the responsibility. I think there's also something to be said about this concept of right and wrong. I mean, not to go all esoteric, but we can make an argument for days about this concept of right is there anything right? Or and you said something beautiful. It's not necessarily a fight. We can shift from a need to be right or wrong to an attempt to understand that's it.

And empathize with where the person's coming from, where they're coming from, why they're.

From, why they see that perspective that they are what about and something else I think that is beautiful is your realization that somewhere wrapped up in here was that past that was very painful for you, but very much alive in this moment. It doesn't mean that this moment embodied the past in an objective way. It just means that it triggered the part of you that remembers that past.

Right?

So very really beautiful.

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This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, the holidays can feel a lot like balancing family expectations, travel, work, and trying to make everything perfect. It's easy to forget to take care of yourself in the middle of it all. I've been there and what I've learned is that when you don't make space to slow down, it's hard to actually enjoy the moments that matter most. That's why Better Help is encouraging you to rewrite your traditions this season by making time for you. Incorporating therapy into your routine can help you pause, reflect, stay grounded during what can be joyful but sometimes hectic or even lonely time of the year. The holidays look different for everyone. Maybe it's baking your great aunt's sweet potato pie, or maybe it's starting something new, like a quiet night with friends. Therapy can be one of those new traditions, too. Better Help matches you with a licensed therapist based on your goals and preferences. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch anytime this December, Start a new tradition by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10% off@betterhelp.com Lewis that's betterhelp.com Louis A warm dinner, a full table, a peace of mind for every family. That's the holiday we all wish for. The Feeding America Network helps make it possible not just for one family, but for communities everywhere. Because when we act together, hope grows. Give now and your impact may be doubled. Visit feedingamerica.org holiday illustration because that really.

Touches on the work that needs or that we can all do for ourselves in our practice.

I'm just practicing like, I'm doing things I normally wouldn't do, but also the things I normally wouldn't do have never fully worked for me in a relationship. I'm always used to doing things my way because this is who I am and don't change me and don't try to. Yeah, exactly, right? And now I'm just like, okay, even though it may seem a little more time to do this thing or a little more effort here, or I have to sacrifice something else in my life to cultivate this over here. If that's what I'm calling out a sacrifice, it's just by doing and experimenting these things, even though I was resistant to them in the first couple months, I'm like, do I really need to go do this thing in my life that I did all the time that wasn't really adding value? Or is spending that extra 10 minutes cultivating this relationship more meaningful? It's just shifting the awareness of my life about what I thought I wanted to. What's actually more valuable? Not to go off on this, but I feel like what I wanted to talk about is people practicing when you're not in conflict. And the reason why tools don't work is because I don't think people are practicing enough when there's not trauma or stressful moments. And is that is there anything else that could I guess make the tools work, except for conscious practicing. I guess it's also healing your traumas. But how do we start to heal those traumas?

Well, that's it, actually. So the way I think about a healing journey, I kind of build it into a foundational pyramid with the bottom layer being our physiological body, our nervous system included. Because to speak to your point that you're very beautifully alluding to, which is that we carry dysregulations, physiological imbalances, nervous system dysregulation.

What's the book? The Body Keeps the Score.

Body Keeps the Score.

I've never read it by here. It's great.

Yeah, it's really. It's really. Anyone reading it? It's dense scientifically, so I know it can kind of dissuade people away from it, because he does. It's an incredibly pivotal, impactful book, and I definitely suggest people give it a shot. But I know that it can be pretty dense.

But the overall premise of it is.

The overall premise is that trauma is stored in the body. I'm a believer that most of us have some degree of a traumatic experience in our past. I'm a big believer in expanding the definition of trauma beyond that, the big T. The way we typically think about.

It, it doesn't need to be a physical trauma. It can be emotional, psychological trauma.

Sometimes it's emotional, it's interpersonal. It's not feeling seen, not feeling loved, not feeling accepted, Accepted as the authentic being that we are by typically our earliest relationships, our caregivers, our schools, our.

Things like that, our best friends or whatever.

Yeah. So expanding trauma, I mean, I throw the net quite wide. Like, I really have yet to meet people that don't tick some of the boxes that are, in my opinion, traumatic.

What's the greatest trauma most people face or feel right now?

I think not feeling significant, not feeling authentic in themselves, which began. Not feeling seen and authentic as a being, a separate being in their earliest relationships. I think we all carry a version of that, really, because it's incredibly difficult for a human to show up for another human, an infant, their infant. So because we're modeling things directly, indirectly. So any conflicts, any struggles, any imbalances, any conditionings that's not so positive that caregivers, a parent, you know, have struggled with probably is going to be modeled in the exact same way. And this is where intergenerational patterns happen. If you look back in your families, you'll see the same sort of patterns, you know, as you start to become conscious and as you start to observe these.

Your parents and their parents did this to them, and their parents did this to them.

And if you really want to go into the physiological layer that we're talking about now, I mean, you were grown as a baby, as an embryo in a body, right? So that human's body that's housing this little developing fetus is in some version of physical regulation or dysregulation. Right. So if you really want to go back, these imbalances are affecting you in development. So then you come out and then all your body and how it functions is affected by the food you eat, by the choices you make in terms of how much sleep you get, how do you handle stress? Essentially, what you do all day is going to affect whether your body is regulated or not.

Who do you think is more? I don't want to compare traumatic experiences, but in your mind, who do you think would have a harder time? The child who feels not seen or taken care of by the parents, or the parent who is giving their heart and life to the child but doesn't feel seen and acknowledged for their caregiving? Yeah, because I can only imagine both.

I can't.

Parents like saying, I'm giving you my life, I'm sacrificing my dreams or whatever the conversation might be to you. And you're ungrateful, you're not loving, you're angry, you're. What do you think is more traumatic, the parent trauma or the child trauma?

I think very equally equally traumatic. And I was actually talking about this this morning with my partner. There's an aspect of it that whatever the story is from the child side and from the parent side, that is their truth. Right?

Their experience.

That's their experience. So that's their truth. Emotionally, that is their truth. Doesn't matter objectively. If an observer would say, oh, no, I actually think you did give enough to your kid or actually do seem being appreciative right there. Doesn't matter because either of those parties are living in their truth, which can be equally, in my opinion, as traumatizing. And probably, chances are that parent, when they were a child. Right. Probably in some version of that experience, similar or almost complete opposition. Sometimes we kind of go in an overcompensation attempt to that. So my argument then being, so now you here have a caregiver who probably is carrying their own trauma from their caregivers and now is carrying their own trauma from having a child. And then this is where a really big snowball gets created. And I think back to why now, why the popularity of the account. I think we're finally at a time time and collective evolution where it's very apparent that these old ways, these old conditioning patterns aren't helpful. And now we're starting to have the tools, the Internet being one of them, where all this information can come out and be out in the world. And now you see a collective evolution happening.

Yes. I don't want to cut you off. I apologize. But you said the triangle of healing journey is that the pyramid, the body.

And the physiological ways we are discussing regulated or imbalanced. And then the nervous system, because without that balance. And this was my story for quite some time because I was, I lived my life in fight or flight, my whole life. And that sympathetic and a nervous system response, which means my nervous system, as yours does and as yours controls our whole body. So when you're in that it's react, we feel very emotionally reactive. Everything feels like we're waiting for that next straw. Right. Next straw and everything. I mean, my water being empty right now could be a straw if I, you know, if I was like amped up enough living in that really prevented me. And this is why I'm so passionate about holistic healing. One of the definitions of holistic being of the body, also of a whole, you know, mind, body, I believe, soul, how all of these parts interact. We need to include the body. Because for my life, having tools, being in therapy, being on medication, my body was so dysregulated at the nervous system level that it didn't matter if I. Very insightful. Knew that next time I need to call this time out with you, Lois. I wouldn't because my body was too dysregulated to give me a chance.

Too messed up.

That's why I put that at the bottom.

So you have to heal the body first. Is that what I'm hearing?

You have to engage in a process because this is long term. We don't make one change again overnight. And our body doesn't.

It could take decades to take a break.

It could take a long time. I mean, I've been on the healing journey for some time and I'm still releasing areas of inflammation that I'm carrying in my body. My digestion is still working its way out from a lifetime of digestive issues related to my imbalance. Yeah. And I'm years in. You know, it got significantly better, you know, along the way. But start by healing the body. And definitely if you're out there and you're listening and you have nervous system dysregulation, if you always feel on edge and in that fight or flight. If you've heard that you have adrenal fatigue, now we have a medical diagnosis for it. You need to be adding some version of whether it's breath work or some version of nervous system regulation in because that's going to give you the balance or some foundation to then be able to dive in and create deeper change.

Okay, so the bottom of the pyramid is the body.

The body. Look at the choices you're making around your lifestyle, how you care for your body. Is there any things that you can add, change, decrease, and also look at your nervous system and build. I do a daily practice of breath work still and I will always do it.

I just think it's a no brainer. I think there's so many apps and programs and experts out there teaching it because it works, it's helping and it's powerful. And people have been doing meditation and breath work for thousands of years because it keeps them grounded, centered, calm and not in a stressful environment. I definitely recommend practicing it. So the body's first and then what's after that.

So moving up then to the mind, the mind developing consciousness, creating. For a lot of us, it means creating the distance from our thoughts based in the reality that none of us are our thoughts. We believe we are. We believe we're our thoughts. We believe we're the story that we've told ourselves about who we are. Right. When I went who art earlier, when you were talking about who we are, right. This is my narrative. That's all created. It's all created from our past conditioning. So even the who we think we are is not the who that we are. Those are patterns of thinking in our head. Those are stories that our ego is telling us all day long about who we are compared to who other people are. Who we are is the awareness that sits behind our thoughts. So this is what this kind of tier of thinking mind work is. To first create that separation, I suggest doing it in a meditation practice. Our goal is to do it all day long. But when we're sitting, when we're quiet, even if we're meditating for one minute, which is definitely the amount of minutes that I suggest a new meditator to meditate for. Because it's a long time, this is difficult for some of us. It's the first time we're tuning in to our internal world. It's not always comfortable in there. A lot of us like to run away from it. A lot of us spend a lot of our day running Away from it. So once we learn how to observe our thoughts, so by closing our eyes, by sitting in a quiet room, thoughts are going to come. That gives you the first experience of being separate. Because who's watching them? You're who's watching them. The goal, though, is to build the bridge and to do that all day long. But it doesn't come overnight. Once we become an observer of our thoughts throughout our day, then we get to do the deeper work that I'm always talking about of the ego and the inner child. Because you're going to start to see the very repetitive patterns in your thinking that are causing you to then have very repetitive, consistent feelings in your body, which are physiological. That's why they're real, too. When we're stuck in consistent feelings, you know, it feels very invalidating to have people to say, well, just stop feeling like that.

I can't, because I've been wanting to blame myself on doing that to people in the past, too. It's not until you really, like, go through this process, you can start to have empathy and compassion for everyone's journey.

Yeah, quite literally, we get stuck in feelings. Feelings are physiological events in our body. They become familiar. So my story about me in fight or flight, my most frequently visited emotion was stress, was chaos. Every day, that's all I knew until how long?

Until how old?

Probably until I was in my early 30s. You know what I mean? I'm 37 now, so not very in the distant past, I just lived in chaos. If you would be talking to me, Louis, I would say, all I want in life, I'm a hippie at heart. I just want to throw peace signs. Peace and freedom. That's all I want. Right. But the second I would find myself, what could have been experienced as a moment of peace or freedom? Maybe I'm sitting quietly somewhere. That was so uncomfortable.

Stressful for you, really?

It was uncomfortable. My body registered as unfamiliar. You're not used to this. So then if no one was around, I would start to worry about the thing yesterday that happened or maybe tomorrow. Right. So now I'm creating a change in my body, because the more I think a stressful thought, the more I release stress hormones. And now I'm having my body's back into that zone of comfort. It loves being stressed. That's what it knows, right? If a person was around me, this is where it gets really fun and complicated, bringing our relationships into the picture. If a person was around me, watch out. Because before I knew it, if I was in that unfamiliar, peaceful space, I might agitate the situation. Before you know it, I might be picking a bit of a fight with my partner or whoever's around me.

Why are you doing this? Why does that happen?

Increase the stress back to my zone of comfort. That's how I'm used to feeling. So that's back to that concept of stuck. We're stuck because we're subconsciously stuck in our familiarized comfort zone. Even though that's not the place or those aren't the behaviors, those aren't the thoughts, those aren't the ways that we're going to feel to get us the life that we want, but that's what's familiar to us. Wow.

Okay.

And so the more you practice self observation, the more you get to see yourself living. Also very uncomfortable. This is uncomfortable work.

And you get to reflect and say, okay, you know, on a scale of 1 to 10, how traumatic was that feeling all day or how stressed out was I? I was an eight all day. Okay. Why were you an eight? What's allowing you to stay at an eight?

Why are you still an eight?

Why do you stay there? What's. What's the payoff? Right. What's the price you're paying and what's the payoff you're getting by being at that level? What would it take for you to drop at two points or whatever? This is how I think.

What do you imagine would happen if you dropped it?

Yes. What could you create in your life?

Yes. Also negative.

How would your relationship be?

Some of us get caught in a negative feeling. As counterintuitive as this might sound. In fear of what life would be like without.

Right. In fear of the good things happening?

Yes. It's very complicated.

Why are so many people afraid of more good things happening to them? Do they think they're not worthy or deserving of it?

What did you ask me when we first started? Right. What is the trauma, the most prolific trauma? Not being seen or feeling enough. Feeling enough as a child. So if we have a deep rooted feeling of not enough or not worthy, those are the two frequent iterations.

Why should good things come to us?

Why should they come to us? And it doesn't matter if logically you really want that good thing, if subconsciously you're an unworthy human being, you're not going to get it.

That's why when people get it, they'll sabotage it and they'll lose it. Right?

Yes.

So how do we come to a place of worthiness, of truly feeling and knowing we are enough and we are deserving of goodness in our life. How do we get to that place?

I usually do it in a twofold process because I think the first layer of the process is observing all of the times you're telling yourself you're not enough all day and stopping that shit. Meaning you can't stop it. I'm joking when I say that. Because you can't stop it.

Observe it.

Observe it. Your subconscious is going to give you that language, whatever it is. You know, we all have different languaging that we love to diminish ourselves around. So whatever it is, the thing that you're. You're a loser, you're not worthy, whatever your language is, you can't stop that.

Replace it.

Yeah, but you can't stop that. So I want to just acknowledge that because this is another moment we can become very shameful, frustrated, and tell us the work's not working. Why is it still here? I know it's there. Turn it off. Nope. So I observe it being there, but I don't. You said something important. I don't spend that much time in it.

Yeah.

So what most do, subconsciously. This is why I'm gonna state a fact. Feelings have an end. They come and they go. You know, depending on who you read, you know how many seconds it is or minutes it is, or, you know, they come and they go. We do not allow them to go because I say we bring them up to our mental world and we need those gymnastics for it. So if you then repeat. So if that thing happens in your environment and your subconscious offers you that, the reason that that thing happened is because you're a loser, right? Which it probably still will do. You can still show up consciously, say, oh, thank you, subconscious. Thank you for reminding me of that. But I'm not gonna. That's not how I am. That's not who I am. So I can now remove my attention, put it anywhere else. What am I doing? Maybe I put my attention on my breath. Just get out of that script. Stop repeating it yourself to simplify it, because that's the difference between it going. So using your language of changing the script or just removing your attention from your thinking mind, ground yourself in your body. Feel the room you're in. Do those deep belly breaths. Go for a walk and pay attention to your legs. Walking, as simple as that sounds, get out of your mind. Because the more time you spend repeating, I'm a loser, I'm a loser, I'm a loser. Now you are going to carry that feeling.

You are that home.

You might carry it in the next week. Some of us have lived in the past of feelings that have originated decades ago. Because we're repeating it, because we're telling us that story. Because then the more we do that, the more we scan our environment for more and more evidence. So if something loser happen to me at lunch, I'm probably gonna find the loser thing that happened to me at dinner and right before bed. And again, I could really start a snowball rolling down a mountain in not a helpful way.

The first thing is observe it.

Observe it.

What's the next thing?

Remove the focus from it.

Remove focus. Okay.

Without judgment. Let me add that part in there.

That's great because this is where we.

Get really judgmental, of course, and beat up. Now we're a loser because we had to lose our thought. You know what I mean?

Okay. Was there anything out the two steps.

Or two steps and then remove focus without judgment. And then this is where affirmation work can happen. Right. If we want to start. So the two replacing layers. I was talking positive first. We want to diminish the increase. I mean decrease the amount of time and the fallout of negative thinking that a lot of us have been over practiced. And then we can become impactful. If you are someone who like, I mean, affirmations, what they are simply a new thought. So then if you do start to practice telling yourself that I am worthy, that might have a. You might have a chance over time of actually believing that. And then you might have a chance over time of actually seeing instances in your environment of your worthiness. But that doesn't work. And this is why, in my opinion works affirmation work in and of itself gets kind of called woo woo. And a lot of people become frustrated and it doesn't work. And it won't. Because if you do, maybe you have a morning routine where you tell yourself some beautiful affirmations. If for the rest of your day, as a lot of us are, you're back in your subconscious and you're not practicing consciousness the rest of the day, your subconscious might be reminding you of how not worthy you are. And that's why I don't think affirmations are as successful as they can be. So until you start to remove that focus all day long and just be consciously present to what is happening without judgment, then you can start to give yourself a chance at believing over time that I am worthy or whatever it is that you would prefer to believe of yourself.

I love that we got the body. The next step, the mind.

What's after the mind so once we understand. So once you've done a significant amount of time observing yourself, now you really can dive into the world. The deepest tip, if you will, of the work is the whole world of the inner child, of the ego, of the wounds that we're carrying with us that are coloring our experiences in our environment. But you can't do that work, as a lot of us want to do in way some, until you have these.

Other tools in place, really, until you take care of your physical needs, the body, until you help with breath work, meditation, calming the body, relaxing the body, then observing yourself, your thoughts, why you're reactive, why things are stressful for you. You can't heal the inner child or the ego until you do those first two things. Why is that?

Well, you won't. First and foremost, you won't be able to see it happen.

You're too stressed. You're too.

Because you go, I say go unconscious. Back to our examples, right, of our arguments. I'm unconsciously living in my past in that moment. So you can't really see. To be observational, you need to be there in your conscious. You can't see what's happening. You only see the reality that you're telling, what you're feeling. You're just feeling in that moment. So I'm upset that you hurt me. I'm upset that you what have you me, right. You're not actually observing what happened and what the story you told yourself was about the dish. Go back to that example that led you to be so incensed. The dish did nothing. In this example, the dish is just a dish on a table. But when you saw that dish, you said something to yourself. You rehearsed, you went through some filter that then colored how you're feeling. And then what happened next?

They don't care about me. They're abusing me. They're whatever.

Until you show up consciously and practice seeing, observing that, you have no idea. You actually think that dish was the problem. You're so stuck in it, you're unconscious to it. So it can't be done until you start to develop that distance and that space that I'm talking about. Because even when you're doing the ego work and the inner child work, those reactions are still there alive for you. So if you don't have that space, you're going to continue to choose those old reactions. So as you practice consciousness, that's what gives you that space. So they can be here and be happening in your world, in your subconscious world, and you can still be online and making the choices, not allowing them to make make the choices.

This alone, this part of this interview is just going to transform so many people's lives just by understanding the process. Because I think a lot of us try to just do breath work and think we're going to get healed. Just think about our ego and healing trauma or the inner child work. But you need to do it's like the process is so much clearer and I know you're going to be writing about this in your book, which I'm excited about, but this process alone is going to change a lot of lives. So I'm very grateful we're going through through this. Is there another step to this pyramid of healing or is it the body, mind and ego?

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Just like a circle just keeps going.

That's the final piece. And that's I joke when I say that but I true wholeheartedly because just as much as I don't know where to start, I wanna just work on one thing. A lot of people, myself included, wanna hear when the end happens, when we're.

Just done, it's never done. The healing journey is a lifelong journey until the day you die, probably.

And just as much right? If you do all this work and you get to this great place, if you stop making these choices, if you let your body fall into disarray, you're right back into that dysregulated state before you know it, right? If you stop being conscious before you know it, you fall into some other like maybe it's different narratives or different habits that you're now living, but you're still living in an unconscious state.

What is the practice every day then? Breathwork, meditation, prayer. And then what would the practice Be on observing self thoughts in the mind. Is it kind of just an all day practice?

Yeah. So what I do, it's never stopping. So what I do is I show up and I do meditation every day just in a contained way just to keep. I mean it's a mental exercise so that I can carry that then practice throughout my day. So not everyone has to have a structured meditation practice. I just think it's helpful, you know, to have that start the day with calm every day. Right. And to remind myself, okay, this is what you're about, Nicole, you're not those thoughts that are. So some days my brain is much louder than other days, all day long, depending on what's happening. Sometimes I have resources to make new choices, you know, that I want to make and some days I don't. I fall right back if I'm tired, if I'm hormonal. Some days I still react in those old ways. So I keep a consistent daily practice as that mental training as that. I start my day in peace and then I practice all day long. I try to be as conscious as possible. I've now learned, remember, I am someone who I just said a couple minutes ago, I spent my whole day dissociated. I was on my spaceship. So this took me a long time to cultivate the ability to be present in my body and in my moments throughout my day. So this did not come overnight. And so all day long, then it became a practice of I learned to distinguish between when I'm not present, I learned how it feels in my body or in my interactions. Like I can tell when I'm like somewhere else now because everything feels a little fuzzy, I feel a little more distance. I maybe can't feel grounded in my body. And I can tell when I'm here, obviously then I try to make the decision on more off occasions to bring myself back into that conscious state, back into that presence. So then I do that all day.

Yes.

And then as I'm journeying about my day, I am gifted with teachers of triggers, you know, meaning I, you know, tell myself stories and I can be observational. Then in those pivotal moments, okay, why did this thing that this random stranger said or did to me become so upsetting? And then I can start to uncover, oh, this is my ego still, you know, telling me this story about myself or, oh, this is my wounded child who really just wants to be seen in this moment.

Gosh.

Right. So it's. Then it becomes a varied, you know, experience on the daily. But once you're conscious and Then you can begin to navigate your daily life in a new way.

What's your biggest trigger?

Not feeling considered. By far, considered. That goes back to that little child who didn't feel considered in the being that I was. I was rewarded historically over the course of my life for my accomplishments, for what I did, not for who I was. So considered, for some reason, that's the.

Word that I'm considered for being. Just being.

Yeah, that. That's a word that always, for whatever reason, got attached to that lack of that feeling, that childhood wound that comes up now. And that's what I'll see myself saying. Oh, my partner didn't consider me in doing this. Oh, this person didn't consider me when.

This was considerate, when they were cutting me off in traffic.

Yeah. Actually, on my way here, I should tell you, this morning, my partner tried to have a conversation with me that I did not want to have. And my first thought was she didn't consider what my day looks like today instead of, you know. And that wasn't true. She absolutely knew what my day was like today. You know, she wanted to have a conversation. And I can be flexible. And I can just as much say I would like to not have that conversation today because of what my day looks. But my first instinct, and still there.

Why is she going here?

Well, she's not considering. That's the first thing my subconscious assigned to that. I've done a lot of work on that now, so I now know that's not true. But I share that as an example after having done a lot of work. It's still there. I didn't scream, I didn't yell. You know, I was able to, you know, I mean, suicide. I was feeling the screaming.

I'm calling school greatness. Don't mess with my morning.

Yeah. You know, and then I was able to remove myself and take a few breaths and come back and we were okay. But it's still there. But that's my core one. That's one of my core someones that comes up and you'd be surprised or maybe not. I can make everything an example of me not being concerned.

Yeah. Lewis didn't have a bed of glass for me, or he didn't have tissues or. You know, isn't it crazy the stories we can tell ourselves of what we're not being seen for or considered for or enough for.

Yeah. Well, part of it, too, and this is where we can also become flexible in our relationships, is to keep going back to this when I have such a. I've Obviously defined the ways in which I accept consideration. Right. Which are probably going to be different. This is back to that. Love languages. I'm sure a lot of listeners have now heard about love languages. Right. So I've subconsciously come up with the things that work for me to feel considered. That, however, might be excluding a lot of the things that my partner does do every day that are considering of.

Me, that are considerate, but you don't.

See them because they're not in my equation of consideration. So that allows a level of flexibility, too. If I can open up and maybe explore other ways that she very much more authentically to herself is able to consider me, I can let that in now. So that's another version of flexibility that can happen in a relationship. Because we all lead in a lot of ways with subjectively what works for us. And then we assume the person to be able meet that need exactly the way it works for us. And that's not realistic and not always healthy. Because now I'm asking you indirectly in some way or implicitly, to change who you are.

And it's not enough of what you're doing for me.

Yeah. And it could be leaving you feeling minimized and invalidated yourself because you could think you're doing this, and you likely are, but I'm not seeing it.

I mean, this is real life for so many people. I always had Esther Perel on last week, and we were talking about, like, the expectations we have for our partner is to be like all things to us at all times, you know, romantic all the time, sexual, considerate, you know, taking care of all these different needs and responsibilities for what we need, for what I want for all these things. And she was saying, like, we have such high expectations that we're always gonna be unhappy unless we start to change the expectation and start to really adapt in the way you're talking about here. I think it's so important we need.

To think about where it comes from developmentally. A time or a place where, as humans, we actually did need someone to be everything for us. I mean, when we're born, developmentally, we are not able to care. We are the one species that it cannot care for ourselves. So that need at an infancy time is real. You are completely dependent having all your needs met on one or two or whomever, caregivers of any sort, whoever that might be. So developmentally, though, we have to learn how to internalize that process and meet our own needs. And a lot of us just don't because we didn't have the Models to teach us how. Because our parents weren't doing that either.

I know. How do you forgive parents when I know you publicly have talked about. What's it called? Creating boundaries. Is it boundaries or. What's the thing you say?

Boundaries?

Yeah. You've created the boundary where you don't speak to.

I have no contact now.

You have no contact now. It's been, I think, a year, two years or something, year and a half. How do, as kids, how do we forgive our parents? Even if what they did was the best they could do, or maybe they didn't do such a good job, how do we forgive them? Either way, how do we learn to do that process so that it doesn't keep hurting us?

I think forgiveness comes when we're able to empathize or understand. Sometimes that does come. It can only come with distance. If we're living in this situation, it can be harder to create the distance to do this. But a lot of times as we age, as we just develop physically separate families, we can look back and as we gain our own maturity and our own experience in relationship, that helps inform the ability to empathize, which just means to understand from another's perspective why or what might have been influencing the choices or the reactions that you maybe experienced within the relationship with them. So once we can understand, I think that allows a certain level of forgiveness. I think once we're also able to. In the process of understanding, let me word it this way, often what we find is that it was never really about us, us, us. Right. It was about their own past, their own traumas, their own inabilities. Again, as a kid, we're in what is called egocentric mind. We develop brain functioning. Put it this way, kind of it evolves over time. We don't just get all of the abilities that we have.

Not just self aware at five years old.

Yeah, no, not at all. And we go through a very critical developmental age range where we cannot empathize, we cannot see a perspective outside of our own. Everything is happening for us, because of us, to us, that is it. It's cognitive.

We're the center of the world.

We are, quite literally. And we cognitively can't see otherwise. So that's really problematic because when a bad thing is inflicted upon us by our caregivers, we cannot help but assume it's because we're not worthy, not good enough, what have you. Right. We cannot do differently. But once we've developed a maturity and aged out of that, and maybe we see perspective, see perspective now, maybe we can Deal. Personalize it. We can see that. Okay. Even if it's egregious. Right. We might be able to even trace back what had happened to that caregiver. That result doesn't okay it. When I have these conversations a lot, the response I get around boundaries too. Right. Is well, you're okaying abuse or you're okay. No, it's an and situation. I can empathize, I can depersonalize. I can come to the understanding that it's not me. And I still might choose to put a boundary within this relationship. I still might choose to do whatever I want to choose to do. It becomes. And because I can understand, this is where I used to struggle a lot. Because I have a crazy capacity to understand people and to understand why people do what they do to the extent that I would invalidate my experience of them for so long and then allow them to do what they want to do around me or to me that my whole life.

Right.

So not helpful. So I had to evolve into that. And I can understand. And this doesn't work for me.

And I'm breaking up with you.

So my life is going to now be over here, you know. And so I say that because empathizing, understanding, depersonalizing still can allow you to create important boundaries. So even if you're able to forgive your parents or whoever we're talking about here, doesn't mean that you have to accept them as an active relationship and you. So I feel very forgiving of my family. I've always understood why and how these patterns have been put in place and translated and why I've had the experiences within that family structure that I have. I'm, if you will, forgiving of them. Right. And still I'm choosing not to have a relationship because for me, for now and where they're at with what my choice initially was to step away from the relationship, it just isn't happening in this moment. I don't know what the future will be.

Is it because it's too triggering for you when you're around them or you just don't feel like you're in a.

Good space in terms of connecting with them again?

Yeah. If you wanted to like hang out with them for the weekend, is it just too triggering for you to feel?

So in the beginning, it was the reason I went full no contact because.

You tried to year and a half.

Ago because of their. The family structure, the lack of boundaries. Tuned into the last episode, I talk all about it. That being the case and it being triggering. So for me to get that stability in my healing. I have tried to reengage contact with them now on one occasion and I recently actually just sent them a letter to let them know that I'm living out here. And it has been met with I guess three occasions because I recently sent my nephew a card that was also returned. So little messages trickling my way that they're maybe not interested right now in pursuing that open door. So it's not about necessarily. I don't know how I would feel in front of them. That would be interesting for me now if we were able to find a way back to some sort of person to person interaction with one or all of the family members. I would be really interested to see.

Videotape dad and see yourself.

I should be talking all about it if at some point there becomes a reconnection. But I have tried and it just seems like the door is closed on their end. I'm sure they're angry. Of course I can even understand and forgive that.

Yeah, of course.

You know, because I, I, I know that they don't.

Your daughter doesn't respect.

They don't understand.

Yeah, of course.

And I can't expect them to understand.

Wow. Okay, there is, let's see if I. Am I. Is there any loose ends here? We've got the healing journey pyramid trauma stored in the body. That's so much good stuff right now. But I have how to feel enough. Three steps there. That's great, I think, because most people talk about affirmations, but it's not enough until you do the first two steps. Yes, I love this. There's three. Doing some research on your Instagram lately and there's three posts that essentially did three to four times more engagement and comments and reaction than all the other stuff. And I wanted to kind of dive into three of these things because I think it'd be really powerful since people need this right now. One is how to say no without apologizing. I think as a people pleaser myself of the past and still recovering people pleaser, it's been really hard to say learn how to say no over the last few years, but I'm getting better and better at it without feeling like I'm letting someone down or someone's gonna be upset with me. As a kid who never had friends growing up, it's always like, I don't want to ruffle the feathers of the friends that I had. And so I have to learn how to be like if they're upset and they don't understand, there's nothing I can do. And I'm giving them my best. So how do we say no without apologizing?

Yeah, it's hard. This is really grounded, Lois. And a lot of us. I mean, I totally resonate with people pleasing. I've been calling it an epidemic of codependency. Back to right this childhood where if we're not enough what we do, we're very adaptive.

Yes.

So what most of us do is similar to what you did. Right. With your friends. Not having much friends, you know, you became so attuned to whatever you want to the friends that you have to keep those relationships. Right. We do that within our caregiving units, our family structures. We find a way to keep the things that we need, which are connections with other humans, love, from another human. We are interpersonal species. That is it. We actually need to be bonded together, like I said earlier, out of developmental necessity. And then just generally in life, I mean, think back to evolutionary days and tribes, and there's very real recent research out there now. The stress goes down when we are interconnected with other humans, aside from division of labor. Oh, you can help relieve the stress of my objective life. Just the emotions. And we actually release oxytocin when we're connected to another human. We need those hormones, so we need to be connected. So we get very adaptive and we find the ways if we've developed in a household where we're not seeing seen as a separate entity and able to develop connections and relationships with other separate entities in our family. Again, I talk a lot about an enmeshed codependent family in our last talk. That's what I've come from. We get very externally oriented, is what I say. I start to become so attuned to the outside world so that I can manage how I feel by showing up to friendships or doing the thing or answering the phone call by not saying no. So once we come to that realization, and we want and we understand the impact that always being available has on ourselves and on our relationship. And it hurts our relationship.

It does, because it hurts relationship with ourself too.

Yes. And what happens, though, is sadly, over time, if I always say yes to you and I'm. Even if I mean no before I know it, I don't like you, Lois. I'm not upset.

I'm like, why are you upset at me for? You say yes.

I'm, like, not really liking you.

You're resenting the fact that you're saying yes.

I'm mad at you, but I'm really upset. If I really look down at it. I needed to start saying no. How the hell would you know? I mean, we like to believe that other humans, especially when they're our partners, are mind readers. We love this idea that people see the same reality as other people. Right? But what we're talking about, you just don't. You're never gonna have the same reality as another person. So we like that idea. So we say the yes, and then we get upset at the person. So it really is damaging of our relationships. And I know I lived the hard way. I had to learn how to say no. My go to was not necessarily no with an apology. I liked apologies. I peppered those in. My preference was no with the excuse, with the why.

Here's why. I can't do it.

I needed to validate the reason. I was disappointing someone with this belief that it wasn't enough just to not to want to or to feel like it or just to be somewhere else in any given moment.

So how do we say no without an excuse or an apology then?

Yeah, practice. I mean, it's hard, you know, it's very, very difficult. First and foremost, it's accepting the reality that you have every. You're welcome to say no. You're allowed to say no. And that saying no doesn't diminish who you are or the relationship. Again, this is a deeper. This is an evolution of work. We don't just turn off, you know, the belief that I have to say no to maintain these friendships. We don't just overnight come by a new belief. Right? So we can practice. And I suggest practicing. I say, like around the periphery, right? Start to say no. So what this looked like for me, I started to put up boundaries or to say my nos in my professional world, where it felt a little easier, right? So some requests that would come in and from people that I maybe didn't really know it would feel. And it's virtual. So I can even send the email through my phone, which has happened before, and run away and come back later to see what happened. Hopefully. I didn't realize, you know what I mean? So easier for me. So I practice there before I practice maybe saying no with my immediate family or with my partner. There's gonna be some. There might be some relationships that it might be even easier. Maybe you do have that one friend that is, like, casual about it. You know, you're gonna find the moments of practice. But the theme for today, you have to practice because it's gonna be really hard when you're faced with that saying that no and what's gonna happen is everything that happens in your mind that prevented you from saying that no for however many years you have not said that no. It's gonna happen in your mind the second you. Well, first of all, before you say the no, trying to convince you out of saying the no. So before you know it, you're saying yes again.

I know, right?

This is where consciously you have to. You have to say no. No, period, the end or no, whatever you want to deliver the message being. And then on the backside, once it's delivered, your mind is gonna try to convince you out of that no still, oh, you're terrible. Oh, this person is gonna hate you. Oh, it's been two hours and they responded clearly, this relationship is over now. The work is still on you. Don't spend time in that thought just like we were talking about earlier, get the hell out of there. But don't expect it not to be there. I call them the feel bads. The feel bads have haunted me around every boundary I've set for quite a long time before they've diminished. And they still are there every now and again. I still find myself feeling bad. Almost into saying yes. Maybe I'm even feeling bad once I've said the no. But I'm like carrying that. But I get to choose. How long do I want to live in this feel bad?

It's not good. Yeah.

And a really cool thing happens. As you practice, you start to learn. And see, sometimes you do get that feared response. Sometimes exactly what you imagine would happen. That's not positive. Does I got that a lot from my family. Not all the time. So if you focus on the moments where the thing that you feared most didn't happen, that relationship didn't end, those friends still were around and asked you to come to the movies next weekend. That's what I urge you to pay attention to, because that's gonna help you keep saying the no's and helping you shift out of the pattern.

I think if. You know, it's not the end of the world if someone reacts in a negative way to your no. Because if they get so upset that you can. Unless it's like something so like my wedding or whatever, and you've told them months in advance or you've given them time, it all depends on the situation. But if it's a friend who just gets upset because you're busy one weekend for whatever reason, then is that a great relationship?

You know, spend more time with them.

A couple of things that you said on how to say no, without apologizing. You said a couple responses would be, I won't be able to make it and I'm grateful you invited me. Not apologizing, thank you for the invite.

And I can't go.

You don't have to give a reason why. You also said, that sounds amazing. It's just not something I can commit to right now. So simple solutions you can use without having to say, I'm sorry, I'm not going to make it. I wish I could, you know, things like that. So I really like that. How to say no without apologizing or explaining yourself. This is another one you posted about relationships, which I think is really powerful now. I was in a long distance relationship for a year and the relationship moved in and things have become more, let's say, normalized, Right. It wasn't every other weekend where I'm going to visit or she's visiting and this incredible experience every weekend. We still have amazing experiences, but we're around each other all the time. And you said this was, I think you called it normal things in relationships. You said feeling bored or unsettled, being triggered consistently mourning the loss of single life, which I've felt that before, and needing alone time because I think when we get in a relationship that's normal, you're around each other a lot and you feel like you need space. Right. Why is this such a powerful post that you think that you shared?

I got so many messages in response to that post of gratitude, of is.

It okay to feel these things?

I've gotten people. I've talked about this with my partner, my husband, and we're so grateful. You make us feel normal. We were really worried.

Not like our relationship is messed up.

No, thank you. We're feeling these things and we now know that it's okay to feel these things. Some of it, I think. I mean, first of all, the conversation we're having today, mostly, right. Most of it is around the relationships that we were modeled and the relationship that we were in at a young age. Right. So that becomes our model for what relationship should be. Not all the times, of course, are we given the healthiest models. The relationships we're seeing happen and the relationships we're experiencing with caregivers around us, the peers around us, again, they're based in conditioning that for most of us, intergenerationally she transmitted by caregivers and people who are, you know, in their own world with their own issues. Right. So not always the healthiest. So I think that's a big part of it, you know, People just aren't modeled the healthiest type of relationships. You know, I think that's a big part. And there's also I think the Disney vacation I think I might have to.

About everything is we did. No, but it's like this Disneyland.

That's another level of message has to.

Be like that all the time. Mm. It's not that way. But it's also you get to create intimacy, passion, love. Like you. Also in my opinion, you shouldn't make it boring all the time. Like you get to bring the energy, you get to bring the love. You get to be creative and care. And I think powerful relationships are ones that have caring and creativity. I think I heard Tony Robbins talk about that where it's like if you just have a little bit of creativity, you can create that spark all the time. And if you just show you care, it doesn't have to be this grand Disney vacation gesture, but just creativity and caring every day will make someone feel seen, acknowledged, appreciated and enough the thing that is our biggest trauma for most of us. Right?

Absolutely.

Yeah. So anyways, I love that post and the last post that I saw that was for whatever reason why crazy is talking about childhood trauma and what childhood trauma also is, which is not just physical or sexual abuse, but other types of childhood trauma. You said a parent denying your reality, which is I think a big trauma for people that gets overlooked. A parent living vicariously through their child, maybe you know, the soccer mom or dad or whatever that's always there. The events trying to hype them up because they never got that experience and just not being seen or heard. That is trauma for child. For children, childhood trauma. Is there anything else you want to add to that or I mean that why that's so big for people so.

So much that could be could be experiences traumatizing in our earliest relationships. I you picking up on the done aisle of reality one. I think that's a real again have really met a minimum of people who haven't had that version of experience because reality is subjective. So to have a caregiver be able to step out of what their perception of an event was, to acknowledge your own takes this level of consciousness that we're talking about. And personally I know I was not raised by two conscious humans, so they were not able to gift me with that.

So how do you speak to a child who's seven who doesn't have the perception yet who doesn't have the ability to see see their own thoughts and observe their own thoughts when you saw an experience happen and you're, like, calm and relaxed, and they're going through stress and chaos. How do you communicate to a child about their reality without being like, just grow up. You know, here's what happened. It's not that big a deal. How do you actually speak to someone in that situation then who has a chaotic reality or stressful reality?

Ask them. You can start with as simple as asking them. Parents, I think, lead with telling their kid, and they cut it off. Or they assume why they think their kid is reacting instead of saying, johnny, what is going on? You look upset. What's happening for you right now? You know what's going on for you? Are you feeling in your body? What are you feeling like you want to do now? Just like asking. I mean, I think that's a really simplified answer instead of just assuming. And this happens, too. I was sharing with my partner the other day one of the most impactful gifts or lessons that I was taught by a supervisor, clinically, very early on, was she pointed out to me that the importance of inquiring, especially around concepts that are quite universal. So, for example, I've known anxiety like I've been saying my whole life. That's all I know. Just so happens that a lot of people that come into my treatment room or my old office have anxiety. Right. So Lois would bring to you and say, I'm anxious. Oh, okay. And I could do one of two things. I could assume that when I hear you say anxiety, what my brain is going to do, let me put it this way, is going to overlay my anxiety. So I'm going to assume that what you mean by anxiety is exactly how I experience it. I'm always on edge. I feel irritable. Sometimes I have panic. I'm going to make your version of anxiety exactly what mine is. Or I could ask. So the supervisor really emphasized the value of not assuming. You know, even if it's something that you've lived, especially when it's something you lived, ask what that person means. Okay, Louis, so anxiety. Anxiety feels different for everyone. What? So Johnny, little kid Johnny, right? You know, Johnny's like, I'm nervous. And you know, okay, Johnny, tell me what nervous is for you. What's going on for you right now? What is making. Even if you think you know what made Johnny nervous, ask Johnny. You might be surprised that that's not what made Johnny nervous at all. He made up some other story about what happened. That's what made him nervous. So asking is, I think, the most with children, with anyone, really the most pivotal thing that you can do asking.

And listening with an open mind.

Asking and listening and then containing. This is where it gets really hard. How you feel about what you're hearing.

Not trying to coach or teach.

Yeah. Not trying to remove the discomfort that you're feeling. If Johnny does share something with you that. I'm not a parent. I'm not going to be a parent. So I cannot relate. I can't empathize with how it must feel when a child that you've born. Right. Is having.

You gotta feel helpless at times.

I can't. Yeah. So that's gonna happen on top of what, a million other feelings. And as a parent in that moment, unfortunately. Right. Consciously, that's all happening over here. I need to learn how to contain that so I can save the space to hear and help Johnny. Because what we do, understandably, is I don't like how I feel. So now I tell Johnny, that's not what it was. Johnny, stop it. You're fine. We're fine is what I'm saying.

We're fine.

Moving on. And that's not helpful to Johnny. So it's.

That was my childhood. My dad saying, you're fine with everything.

Yeah.

Even when it's like, no, I'm in pain.

No, you're fine, Tall Taz. Which, like I was saying, we all are traumatized. We're humans raising humans. I mean, there's no way. We don't have to be shameful parents listening. Don't have to feel shameful. I get a lot of parents who want the guidebook now on how to not fuck up their kids. And I'm always the bearer of the bad news that you're going to. There's gonna be something that's gonna happen in your. And that's okay.

If you teach your.

Your child resilience and how to process their own feelings. Yeah. They could actually come out the other side a much more resilient human being. You know, and things are going to happen. We're humans raising humans. That's why intergenerationally there is. We're at that point in, like I said, the collective evolution that we all need to change.

Do you feel like we're, as humans, more messed up now than ever? I feel like the word mental health and the industry of self help and the industry of therapy is just so much more talked about and bigger now than it was before? Is it because we're more messed up now or is it because we've always been messed up and now we're just finally using the tools or Starting to learn about the tools and talking about it more.

I think in some ways, lifestyle choices that are now being made quite universally are resulting in bactoar pyramid physiological dysregulations that are causing symptoms.

Which choices are the.

I think our food system. I think the amount that we're moving or not moving, the whole sedentary city life. I mean, I. You know, we're in a very big building, sitting here, filming. You know, this is not natural for us humans. This is actually quite stressful. Even though I feel very calm. I'm sure we all feel very calm in this room. This is actually quite stressful for us humans. So even the movement into cities, you know, is a stress. We have to understand this. So there's. There's a lot I do believe that has shifted just in terms of humanity that is causing symptoms.

A lack of nature messed up, you.

Know, if you will, lack thereof.

So disconnection. Yeah.

I also think that we're at a very beautiful time for humanity where we're awakening and we're actually moving toward healing at such a fast rate that I don't see it as we're going to hell in a handbasket and things are just becoming more up or becoming more messed up. I actually think we're on the brink of incredible growth and incredible evolution, awareness and awakening. So I think it's that. And again, but I do think that, yeah, just the humanity. There's a lot of just environments that we're living in that are causing a lot of stress on our systems.

What's the thing we need most? No matter where we're at in our stage of healing journey, what do we need to think about and remind ourselves the most every single day?

Connecting to ourselves, Coming back, coming back home, going inward. Reminding you that there is a self behind it all that you might feel very disconnected from. But that's worth getting to know that makes all of this work worth it. Right.

As a therapist doing this work, what's your biggest fear? Moving forward with the amount of attention that you've gained in the last year, two years, and the amount of attention you're to continue to gain, do you have any fears around that? Do you have any fears of like, anything.

Yeah.

Insecurities or my type of.

Yeah. So this beautifully full circle right back to that little girl who was never considered, who desperately wanted to be seen and considered. It's one of the most challenging things for me to do and show up for, really. So this has been the case before growth. I mean, this has been the case with 1000 followers. This has been the case the first time I got on camera. This has been the case when I hit a million. So this will, I'm sure, as the numbers exponentially grow and as I start to do maybe things where I can see now the people more visually. The Internet is a great buffer. Although I have done the Googling of numbers to spook myself and be like, whoa, there's that many people in my community right now. I've stopped doing that now because it's gotten out of hand, but a little buffer virtually. So I think as I put myself more in front of the people and as I start to kind of concretize, that little girl wants to run for the hills, and she's still there. She considers it. Yeah. I mean, I'm often joking that I'm getting on the next airplane out of here and, like, holistic signal. I'm not. But that's that little girl. I understand what that is now. I don't have to take that to mean anything other than that little girl. It's just so unfamiliar being seen so vulnerably being. Impacting other people because I'm being seen so vulnerable. That's another reason, the impact, because I'm just being me. I'm putting authentic me out there, and I'm being seen. And as much as I desperately want that, that's scary. It's uncomfortable. So it's not a fear. It's more just of a discomfort that is and has always been there.

When do you feel the most loved?

When I'm considered.

But when are you considered the way you want to be considered?

Right. Yeah.

What makes you feel the most considered?

When someone reflects something that I think I can identify as, like, uniquely me or me back to me, whether or not it's through a gesture, whether or not it's because they actually heard what I said. I mean, this sounds really simplistic, but listening in a reflection, reflective way, where I'm like, actually hearing what you're saying as opposed to formulating my response or going down the journey of what association my mind brought up when you said the thing, that's a skill, and that's hard, and we have to practice doing that. So when someone offers me that, when I feel like someone is truly present, as you even have in this interview to me, and you're hearing me and you're reflecting back what you heard me say, that makes me feel considered, because you heard me. Something that I said in that moment was uniquely mine, and you heard it. It could Also be a gesture, you know, where someone like, does something that like is helpful to me, makes me feel seen, cared for, loved for who I am.

I like that. Okay, so just listening and reflecting back when you feel the most loved.

Yeah. When you're present and like you just heard me and got me in that moment, it could just be a micro moment. But I was a human and you were a human and we just had a connection.

That's cool.

And that's what I didn't really feel like I had growing up. Up. And that's what makes me feel loved.

What about when your partner, what's the thing that she does that makes you feel most loved? Besides that.

I think anytime she's present to me fully, I think presence is very loving.

Presence is the thing that is the presence is loving.

And it's hard to tell, but it's hard, you know, so any moment where I feel like she. And it could just be a moment, but when I feel like she's. We both have a lot going on. There's a lot of moments where we're not fully present or me too. Where she's talking about something. I'm like, oh, this other thing I have to tell you about, you know, just because of business wise or whatever, you know, there's just so many places our attention can be. So sometimes it's micro moments. Sometimes it's time we, you know, consciously carve out to be off our phone and just be us. But I think presence is incredibly loving. And it's not a gift that we give or it's not the way we love a lot of people or a lot of relationships because we're not practicing it ourselves. So before I can be present here with you, I had to have learned how to be present in my own body. Because once I enter a room, now your energy's here. I could be responding to what you're saying. I could be responding to what you're doing. So now I have to learn how to maintain my presence with an external factor that is another human. So if I didn't back to this conversation, if I didn't practice outside of here, the second I come in to interact with someone else, I could go back into that dissociated state, that lack of presence. So it's much harder, it's much easier said than done. But if you can practice presence, I think you can give a true gift of love to all of your relationships.

It's not easy, but it's a simple concept.

Simple.

That's it. If you guys want to hear more, go listen to our last interview we did together. You shared your three truths there, your definition of greatness as well. So I want to ask you that again here, now. Maybe next time I'll ask you and see what's changed.

Maybe it'll change.

How can we support you right now? You've got your Instagram, you've got your membership. Where can we go to find everything?

Yeah, everything is the holistic psychologist. That's the main hub, all things Instagram. Speaking of the membership, April 1, you'll probably hear me talk about it next week online. I'm going to open up a new launch period for the Virtual Self Healer Circle. So we've already had the founding members, they're all nice and settled in. So we're going to open up another group for enrollment. So I'm super excited.

And what do they get every month? What do they get?

So every month, what that looks like is there's a different topic of healing. So members who will join in April will have access to all of the topics that the founding member group has already worked through. Everything is packaged in a month module, meaning we're going to focus on one area of healing and that month we're going to work toward that one area. So it can be very much a design, your own journey, a self directed pace for people. But every month as a full group, we address one topic of healing. You get worksheets, you get PDFs, you get a virtual training, an hour with myself or other experts that have very generously gifted us with their time. You get a month or an hour Q and A live with me on that topic where I come on and I answer everyone's questions live about how they're doing the work or what they could tweak. I put guided meditations in there, I have a playlist in there, a book club. So it's a really a contained healing experience where we can capitalize on connecting with other people. So groups of us all around the world at this point, so anyone is interested, check out my Instagram. You'll definitely hear me talking about it on there. There is a website up where I have a wait list so everyone will get blasted out the link. So that's exciting because that's right around the corner and that's going to allow another whole group of people and healers in there to begin to start doing the work.

Amazing.

I'm super excited.

Well, you also have a team texting platform where you text out updates.

Oh yeah, the text app that's on your Instagram, everything. The Instagram is a hub. There's a link tree there. I have some free goodies that come out if you sign up for my email list. Future self journaling.

It's amazing.

Everything runs smoothly.

You don't have a journal yet, too?

Not yet. Not yet.

But that's what you need to have.

I'm actually. It's funny you say that. I was in the process this morning of doing some tweaks on the old journal prompts. I think I'm gonna release a new edition and then maybe it's releaseable.

And the journal book, I like it. It's amazing. I want to acknowledge you again for being here, for showing up, for teaching us so much. I think your traumas and learning and going through it allows us to heal through our traumas and by you sharing what you're learning and the practices. For me, this is a book, this interview is a book in itself that we could print off and give to people. So I'm excited, excited to dive into this more. I know it's going to help heal a lot of people, and I'm just really grateful for the work you do and acknowledge your wisdom, the ability to connect to your inner child and really have a deeper conversation and then share with us how we can do that. I think it's really powerful. So I appreciate you. I'm grateful for you. And you're also speaking at Summit of greatness. So September 10 through 12, you'll be speaking there.

You can come out, see my little child shake on stage. No, I'm just joking. I'm going to be great by that.

It's going to be amazing. Yeah. Make sure you guys check it out. If Corona hasn't taken over by then, hopefully it's all settled in the next two months. But summitofgreatness.com you can check that out. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Thank you, Lois. I mean, you've been an inspiration to me beyond just from your personal journey, your professional journey. So I'm indebted with gratitude every time you have a conversation.

Of course we'll do it again soon.

I'll be here.

Amazing.

Thank you.

Amazing. This is great. My friends, I hope this helped you. I hope this gave you some inspiration, this gave you some tools, this gave you some healing wisdom that you can apply in your life. Right now, you might be going through some challenges in a relationship in your life, an intimate relationship, a friendship, a colleague, a family member. And hopefully this gave you some tools, some inspiration, some boundary exercises to help you really cultivate the relationships you want in your life and restructure them so that you have that self care and the self love and you don't allow yourself to be taken advantage of or be hurt in different relationships. I hope you start to learn how to heal from your past childhood trauma through this episode. I hope you learned that things are okay. If there might be some processes in your current intimate relationship that you think are boring, things are okay. You can learn the pyramid of self healing. All these things were super powerful for me. I love consuming Nicole's content. If you're not following her, make sure to go check her out. She is a rising star taking over the world of self belief, of boundaries, of self healing. Go check her out right now. You can check out all the the information about her on Our show notes Lewishouse.com 932 Go to our website for more content. We'll have the link back to our previous interview with her, which blew people away. I mean, I keep getting messages about this episode. You can subscribe over on YouTube.com lewishouse to watch the full YouTube video of this and the previous interview that went crazy online as well. And so much more. I hope you enjoyed this again. Please subscribe if this is your first time here, go to Apple Podcast or Spotify and just click on the subscribe button. Leave us a review if this impacted you in any way, we'd love to hear your reviews. We read these out to our team and it also helps us spread the message of greatness to more people in the world. So please subscribe right now and leave us a review if you enjoyed this and give us your feedback. We want to learn how we can make this better. Support Nicole Share her Page Share her content Because I share it all the time. I love it. And again, you can be a champion in someone's life. You can truly change someone's life, improve someone's life, or even possibly save someone's life with this type of information. It's free. Share it with your friends right now. Lewishouse.com 932 Post it on your Instagram story, text a friend, put it in a WhatsApp group text, or whatever you got to do to help other people in your life. You've got the opportunity to really change someone's life by doing that. As Oscar Wilde said, to love oneself is the beginning of a lifelong romance. And Brene Brown said, daring to set boundaries is about having the courage to love ourselves, even when we risk disappointing others. The greatest pain of all is disappointing yourself. I hope you you know that you are loved. I hope I know that you have so much goodness in your heart, you have so much creativity and there are so many good things coming your way because you are an incredible human being with one of the biggest hearts and you wouldn't have the biggest heart if you weren't coming here on a consistent basis. So that's why I know this. I'm so grateful for you. I appreciate you. I love you so very much. You know what time it is. It's time to go out there there and do something great. Finding the music you love shouldn't be hard. That's why Pandora makes it easy to explore all your favorites and discover new artists and genres you'll love. Enjoy a personalized listening experience simply by selecting any song or album and we'll make a station crafted just for you. Best of all, you can listen for free, download Pandora on the Apple App Store or Google Play and start hearing the soundtrack to your life. Always so fresh, delicious and nutritious.

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