967 A Scientific Guide to Living Longer, Feeling Happier, & Eating Healthier with Dr. Rhonda Patrick

This is episode number 967 with Dr. Rhonda Patrick. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now, let the class begin. Ralph Waldo Emerson once said, the first wealth is health. And you all know the famous saying that you are what you eat. Well, my guest today takes a more nuanced view of things, but she agrees that what you put into your body is foundational to your well being. And there is no happiness without health. And now I had the pleasure of sitting down with Dr. Rhonda Patrick, a PhD in biomedical science who has done extensive research on nutrition, aging, stress and cancer. And Rhonda is one of the smartest people I've ever interviewed on these subjects. We covered so much ground in our conversation and she finds it relatable to explain important science that can change your life. Knowledge is power. And I now feel much more well equipped to make choices about what I eat and how I live. And in this episode, we talk about the four things you should eat every single day if you want to stay healthy. Why you should watch out for grapes. That's right, grapes. Among many other foods that could prove to be dangerous for you. Which types of exercise improve mental health and combat depression? The potential long term health dangers of the self love movement. I thought this was fascinating. And which vitamins you should take every single day, no matter what. Now, I love this interview and I think you're going to love it as well and be super resourceful for you. So if you find it helpful in any way, remember, pass this along if it's making an impact on you. And if this is your first time here, thank you for spending part of your day with me. And don't forget to click the subscribe button over on Apple and Spotify. And just a quick note, I wanted to mention that we taped this interview a few weeks back, yet it still remains as relevant as ever. Okay, without further ado, let me introduce to you the one, the only, Dr. Rhonda Patrick. The Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid has a bold design, a spacious interior with 232 horsepower and a 12.3-inch panoramic display to keep the adventure going and fit with the way you live. And with SiriusXM, every drive comes alive, bringing you closer to the music, the sports talk and podcast that you love right in your vehicle or on the SiriusXM app. Every SiriusXM equipped Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid includes a three month trial so the experience begins the moment you drive. Learn more@kia.com Sportage Hybrid Kia Movement that inspires this message is brought to you by Apple Card Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. 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Don't wait. Go to quint.com Lewis for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q U-I-N-C-E.com Lewis free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Lewis welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness podcast. I'm super excited about this. We have Dr. Rhondra Patrick in the house who is a published scientist health educator based in San Diego. She's also a PhD in biomedical science, someone who has done extensive research on aging, cancer, nutrition and so many other things about optimizing your health. So I'm so excited that you're here. Rhonda. Thank you for taking the time.

Oh I'm excited to be here too. I'm glad we finally made this happen.

Finally made it happen. I've been begging you to come on for years.

We just needed a pandemic to get.

You to go Virtual to make it happen. You never leave anywhere from San Diego. You're just obsessed in the research, all day teaching the world about how to be healthier. And so we finally made it happen. We'll have to make it happen in person in the future as well. But I'm so excited about this because I feel like people need you and your information more than ever right now. Obviously, you've been sharing a ton of great content over on your podcast, and we are in a moment of a lot of high anxiety, a lot of high stress and routine disruption. You know, my girlfriend who lives with me, she had plans, she had dreams, and those plans and dreams went on hold just like most of the world. So what does that do to your body and immune system? First, when you have this routine disruption? Anxiety at an all time high, stress at an all time high, uncertainty at an all time high, how do we combat it? And what does that do to our immune system? With all of that combined, there's a.

Lot of evidence, and in fact, a growing body of evidence that psychological stress itself, which is what I think you're referring to, I mean, the fear of the unknown, not knowing what this COVID 19 illness is going to do, whether you're going to catch the virus, all those things, whether you're going to get your job, you're going to keep your job or your housing. I mean, so many stresses associated with this pandemic. We do know that, you know, psychological stress has a pretty profound effect on the immune system. And it's known to depress immune function on the one hand, but also to cause inflammation on the other hand. It's kind of like this weird, how is it doing both at the same time sort of deal. And it's funny, often in biology you'll find a lot of systems like that where on the one hand something will increase inflammation, but on the other hand it's suppressing the immune system. And you might think, well, inflammation is active immune system, right? So it's one of those. It's just there's so many interconnected systems and, you know, one thing is doing. You know, one gene can activate one thing and then activate another, and happens to be the opposite. So. But cortisol itself does increase with psychological stress, and we know that cortisol does depress the immune system.

So anytime we have stress, anxiety, overwhelm, a fight or flight mentality, emotionally, psychologically, it transforms into the body, weakening its immune system. Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Yes, yes, people are. You're more likely to probably succumb to a pathogen. And I think anybody I remember I've gotten the flu twice. Like, maybe I've had it more. I just remember twice in my life, really. Once was during finals week in college. And it was like I was taking like all the, like hard, you know, I was taking graduate classes and everything at once. And it was like I had this Spanish final and my Spanish teacher was like, if you miss the final, you're gonna get an F. And I had an A in the class. So I came in to that final that day and I was. I had a fever and I literally vomited. Like in the classroom, in the middle of test on the day of the final, I vomited. Like, I was like so sick.

With your classmates around you or no way. You're just like, okay, I'm here. I don't want to fail, but I'm gonna do whatever it takes.

I went right to the trash can and threw up.

No way.

So my teacher sent me home. You know, that was like something. I remember that time I had the flu and the other time I had. It was right after I had my son. I was getting no sleep. And sleep is also really important for immune function. And so I got the flu then. But anyways, I think the point of my story was that I think people have their own anecdotes where they're like, they remember getting sick when they had this stressful thing happening, that sort of thing. So stress definitely can depress the immune system for sure. So that's definitely. And then there's all sorts of other things that affect immune function as well. Diet, lifestyle, genetics.

Do you think there's a way to defend ourselves against all disease and viruses? Do you think it's possible if we have the purest mind and psychological well being? We eat the perfect foods, we have nine hours of sleep every night. We have the perfect environment. Is it possible to just the immune system say, nope. Anything that comes in through the body or the skin, like, we're just gonna reject it because we have defended ourselves so well.

I think the only way you're gonna do that is if you never expose yourself to a pathogen somehow by living in a bubble. So, no, I don't think that you can fight off every single pathogen ever. You know, like that's, that's just. It's not, it's not possible. And that mostly has to do with, you know, when, when you're exposed to new pathogens, things that your body has never seen before that, you know, there's no, there's there's, there's really two arms to your immune system. There's the innate immune response, which is what happens when you encounter any pathogen. It's sort of this generalized response where you're basically, you know, trying to, trying to fight it off. And that happens through a variety of mechanisms involving mostly what are called myeloid cells, macrophages, neutrophils. These are cells that are like neutrophils, for example, increase, produce hydrogen peroxide, they produce hypochlorite, which is like bleach. You know, they're producing these things inside of your, inside of your body to fight off pathogens they create.

You have, your body produces bleach or.

Bleach like material, hypercrite, hypochlorite. It does, yeah. Hydrogen peroxide as well.

So, so is this your immune system develops this or is this like your cells?

Is this what your neutrophils are producing? It. It's a type of immune.

What's a neutrophil?

It's a type of immune cell.

Okay.

There are various types of immune cells. You have myeloid cells and you have lymphoid cells. Most people are familiar with lymphoid cells, which are B and T cells. You've probably heard of those, right? And that those also could be involved somewhat in the adaptive immune response. Sorry, in the innate. But mostly they're involved in what's called the adaptive immune response. And that's the immune response. Most people are aware of that, don't study biology. That's the response where your B cells basically form what are called like B memory cells and they produce antibodies which can then recognize specific regions of a virus and you know, protect you from that, from that virus. Protect you from the virus entering your cells. You know, if you don't have. But if you've never been exposed to that virus, then you're not going to have that antibody, right? You're not going to have that adaptive immune system hasn't been activated and so you don't have protection against it. So you rely on the innate one only.

Oh, so we actually want to be exposed to viruses and other bad, I guess, bugs. We want to be exposed to some degree but not full on attack so that our body can build up antibodies. Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Yeah, I think that's an accurate statement. I think, you know, that it was thought for a long time that, you know, all pathogens were bad, all microbes were bad, and we wanted to have, you know, this clean hygiene, you know, you wanted to all the time, never.

Touch anything with your hands. Make sure you cover everything all the time. Yeah.

And now this is how science is. The more tools you have, the more you can investigate questions and learn more answers from doing experiments. So and so as time goes on, you're sort of, your ideas change and knowledge changes, right? And that's science. Science is the changing of it. So we know that microbes, now we've got the microbiome, we've got the skin microbiome, the gut microbiome, the bacteria that are on our skin, the bacteria that are in our gut also have important roles in helping us in helping our immune system. In fact. In fact, actually there's been many studies showing now that early life exposure to dirt, you know, or even like pet dander, you know, growing up with like a dog, can help protect against asthma and even other types of autoimmune. Yeah, autoimmune diseases. And it's really important in the first year of life. Like when my son was born, I was like taking him out in the dirt. You know, I was trying to get them all dirty set up. Years ago, you know, my grandparents generation, it was like, oh, you never want to go in the dirt because it's dirty and you can get sick. And you know, obviously we've learned a lot more since then, but even gut microbiome, the gut, like the composition of what's in your gut, plays a major role in actually regulating your immune cells. And particularly so what happens is bacteria in our gut will ferment certain types of fermentable carbohydrates that we eat. So these are carbohydrates that we don't digest. And they tend to be in plants and fruit. There's many examples of it. Like you can find pectin or inulin or beta glucans. There's lots of different types that are found in a variety of plants. And these bacteria will ferment basically these types of fiber and they will produce a variety of different compounds, almost like little drug factories in our gut. And these compounds, some of them are called short chain fatty acids because they're little tiny fatty acids. They get released into the bloodstream and they regulate, they basically send signals. It's like this signaling molecule that tells our T cells to make more of this type. And one of the types of T cells it makes is a type called regulatory T cells. And regulatory T cells play a very important role in preventing your immune system from attacking its own tissue, thinking its own tissue is foreign. So obviously it Plays a very important role in autoimmune disease.

So how do we get more of these T cells that are good?

One thing to keep in mind would be what, what regulates the gut microbiome? You know, one of the major things that regulates the gut microbiome is what I just said, eating a diverse array of fermentable fiber.

Because what's a diverse array?

So you have blueberries, you have, you know, you have nuts, mushrooms, you have some, you know, dark leafy greens. These have different types of, or, you know, you've got onions and garlic. Those have a different type of fermentable fiber. There's. That should be differentiated from non fermentable fiber, which would be cellulose ligans. Well, just like, well, broccoli has fermentable fibers, but yeah, most of the bulk of fiber in plants is non, is non fermentable. So what that's doing is basically just helping move stuff through the intestines. Right. Pushing it out.

The fiber that's important, the fiber is pulling it down and cleaning it out.

Cleaning it out. Right. And that's also important. But the fermentable fiber, the stuff that's, that can be eaten by this bacteria in our gut, like that is the good stuff that's allowing the bacteria to make short chain fatty acids.

What are the top three to five T foods? I'm trying to simplify for myself. These foods that can really develop that. Yeah. What are the, what would there different.

So the thing is, different foods have different types and different types feed different types of bacteria. So if you want, you don't like for what, for example, some people want to hear, oh, well, I can supplement with inulin. I can get an inulin powder. Inulin is a type of fermentable fiber. You can find it, you can find it in a variety of plants. I think onions, for example. But if you only eat inulin, you're going to be basically feeding certain types of bacteria that, that use inulin or digest, you know, that ferment.

The variety is what you're looking for.

That helps with the diversity, you know, because these bacteria are playing different roles. So, you know, there's, I have been.

Under the assumption that eating the same thing every day is good. It's like eating clean, like a little bit of chicken, lots of veggies, and eating it pretty much every meal is the right way to go in terms of like my health nutrients, in terms of like body composition, how I want to look and feel. Is that something that I should be going Away from and diversifying what I eat every day or.

Well, it sounds like you just said vegetables and vegetable. There's a lot of types of vegetables. Right. So it's kind of nice. I'm just as guilty. Like, for convenience. I'm busy. I know my. My husband gets tired of it, but I'm like, the same. It's so much easier to have the same thing, same thing every day because I find the thing that's healthiest and easiest to make. And, you know, there's days where, let's say, you know, I'm not. I'm not working all day, then I can. I can be more creative and I have more time. Generally speaking, it's easier to kind of stick to the same thing.

But if you were going to. Let's say you came up with a new company, a product that was a meal that you had to have the same meal every day for lunch and dinner and snack. And this would be the thing that you could sell to people. What would be included in that meal that you were like, you know what? If you don't have the. All the variety and time to make these foods all day, but if you could do this three times a day, you're setting yourself up for a really good immune system and good gut bacteria.

Same, actually. The same meal three times a day or different meals? Same meal. I would say basically omega. I would. I would get salmon. I would get wild Alaskan salmon. And that's because salmon is one of the best sources of the marine omega 3 fatty acids, EPA and DHA, which are extremely important for health, particularly brain health, but even cardiovascular health. I mean, just. There's just been so much emerging evidence showing that the omega 3 fatty acids are really important for brain health and for cardiovascular health.

Piece of wild piece.

That would be my protein. And it's also lowest in mercury. There's. There's like 2 micrograms of mercury per 4 ounces cooked. So that's really low in mercury.

Cooked or raw fish?

Well, actually cooking it even lowers the mercury, mercury, bioavailability even more so definitely. And raw, you don't want to like. I think there's too much concern with parasites and all that. So I would say cooking me.

Okay, Number two.

Number two, I would say I always feel like I'm depriving myself. And I'm kind of quoting my mentor here a little bit. If I don't have dark leafy greens with a meal, literally, like every meal, I like to have dark leafy greens. And what are the top. I would Say kale, because I would also like to have my sulforaphane. And sulforaphane. So much evidence that sulforaphane, I think, may be important for longevity. So that would be my greens, kale. And. Yeah, like, maybe sauteed. Sauteed would be good because it's just. You can't really eat raw kale unless.

You put it in a smoothie. Exactly.

Which. Which I actually, I drink my smoothie. I have blueberries, so maybe I would add the avocado and some blueberries, a little. A little cup of blueberries.

And that's it for your meal?

Yeah, that would be my. That would be my.

You'd have wild Alaskan salmon, dark leafy greens, sauteed kale. You'd have blueberries and some avocado.

And avocado.

If you ate those four things every day, multiple times a day, that if that's what you could only eat, you feel like it would set you up for good amount of success.

I do. I do. Yes.

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Well, there's a lot of so in kale. Kale is probably one of the best sources of lutein and zeaxanthin, which are what are called carotenoids. And carotenoids you're probably familiar with or you're. And people listening or watching this are probably familiar with beta carotene. That's like the, probably most famous. That's like the poster child carotenoids. Beta carotene is a carotenoid. It has antioxidant activity itself, but it also can be converted into vitamin A. Lutein and zeaxanthine are really interesting because they accumulate in two regions in the rods and cones in the eye. And they've been shown to play an important role in preventing age related macular degeneration. But they've also really been shown to play an important role in the brain. And there's this accumulating evidence that this stuff is accumulating in the brain. And it really hasn't been known why. And the reason I say that is because lutein and zeaxanthin, because of their molecular structure, they're really good at basically sequestering singlet oxygen. And that plays a role like damaging the eyes, like when you're out in the sun, exposed to sun and you know, cataracts and things like that. So that, that plays a role. And you're basically eye aging, quote, unquote. Right. But in the brain there's no light. So why is this stuff accumulating in the brain? There's just been quite a few studies over the past five years or so, maybe last seven years, correlating it with cognitive function and improved cognitive function and delayed brain aging. And there's like studies correlating plasma levels of lutein and zeaxanthin with improved cognitive function. There's been randomized controlled trials supplementing with lutein and zeaxanthin, improving cognitive function in elderly adults. Always nice to have a randomized controlled trial because that really helps establish causation. When you have these studies looking at associations, at the end of the day it's an association. And you never know, it could be some other factor. Right. Playing a role. So the lutein is zeaxanthin and kale. You've got some fiber, a little bit of fermentable fiber. You've got the sulforaphane, which has been shown to increase. It's been shown in human studies to increase glutathione in plasma and also in the brain, which is amazing. Glutathione is one of the major antioxidant systems in the body and particularly in the brain. And I know we were kind of chatting before we got started about your former life as what I didn't realize even existed. Was this arena football, you called it. And it sounds like that TBI could be a big thing in arena football.

A lot of hits in the head, that's for sure.

Right. Well, glutathione is one of the major antioxidants in the brain and plays a very important role, particularly with any injury in the brain. So sulforaphane increases glutathione and increases the enzymes that make glutathione and use it and subsequently increases glutathione levels.

I saw some. Maybe it was another doctor I'm trying to figure out who said this, that there was some research actually potentially saying that kale was not good for you, that it had some negative side effects as well. I don't know if you've seen that research or if that's just something.

There's no research I've seen on that. I've heard it. It's just, it's one of those things where people like to talk about potential anti nutrients. And one of the, what they're calling an anti nutrient is actually sulforaphane because it can compete with iodine for transport into the thyroid. There's been studies. So for human studies where they've loaded up with sulforaphane and there's been no effect on thyroid function, those were short term, like a week long studies. There have been long term studies on animals that actually have hypothyroidism. They were given sulforaphane and believe it or not, actually they were giving broccoli sprouts extract, which is one of the best.

I hear those are amazing.

Yes. So broccoli sprouts have like 100 times more sulforaphane than mature broccoli. Well, anyway, so should we throw some.

Broccoli sprouts on top of the kale or the apple?

The broccoli sprouts actually would. If I could add more, I would absolutely put the broccoli sprouts in there. Yes. But my point was that the animals that had hypothyroidism, it didn't make their hypothyroidism any worse at all. In fact, it helped the antioxidant status of their thyroid and improved some functions. So I think that doesn't mean, you know, people with hypothyroidism shouldn't be, you know, weary or concerned about consuming too much sulforaphane, particularly if they're not getting iodine. Most people aren't iodine deficient. It's. It's like in salt, you know, Most people are eating foods that already have salt in them now. You know, iodine, iodine deficiency, not, is not a big thing, particularly United States. But so I would, I would say that, that, that those statements by some people that are kind of more into the, the camp of don't eat any plants.

Right. Aren't, aren't really enough research on it.

Yeah, there's not, There may be. You might find one study with one case report with a female who had some crazy disease or something and she was juicing like just ungodly amounts of kale every day where it's like, I mean, okay, like maybe there, maybe you can create a situation.

Sure, sure, sure. You know, there's not enough research backing it though.

Yeah, but, yeah.

So I'm curious about this. You have some great points here. I love your five foods that we should be eating for every meal. Now as a, I'm a 37 year old man, but I've got the, I like to think curiosity and imagination of a seven year old, but I also have the palate of a seven year old and I don't like blueberries. I don't, I don't like avocado. I'm the pickiest eater. I'm probably a pickier than your, than your child. And I want to ask you for the picky eaters of the world who don't eat berries and don't like avocado or aren't creative enough to go that far. And they're limited in their creative thinking in terms of foods. Is it better to just have the supplementation, the vitamins and supplements that are the exact same nutrients and just take the supplements and vitamins as opposed to the actual food itself? Or is the organic fresh caught food always better than the fish oil or the blueberry vitamin? What do you think about that?

Yeah, so I think that there's huge differences when you're talking about eating a food versus taking a supplement. And I do think, for example, multivitamin supplement is, I take it every day. And I think it's great insurance to make sure because, you know, there are 40 essential micronutrients, which are vitamins, minerals and essential fatty acids and amino acids we have to get from our diet. And they're important for not only helping us, you know, not die, for example, you know, scurvy, but also for long term function for the way we age, preventing insidious damage. But there's also a variety of these compounds we don't know about. You know, there's the fermentable fibers that are feeding the gut microbiome and which are making all these chemicals like little drug factories in our gut that are regulating the immune system. We've got polyphenols like blueberries have been shown in, you know, to, in multiple clinical studies, it's been shown to increase blood flow to the brain and improve cognitive function and memory in both young adolescents and older adults. So, and this was, this was due, thought to be due to the anthocyanins and blueberries. And you know, food has so many components, probably so many things we haven't even discovered yet. You know, so many compounds that were just, you know, there's this new, new compound that was discovered in dark leafy greens called sulfaquinolone or something which is now been shown to like have a specific purpose of feeding the gut microbiome, kind of like the fermentable fiber. So it's one of those things where, you know, food has so much to it and there's so many, there's so many parts to the story. It's not just about getting the vitamin, it's not just about getting that one mineral. So, and I will say that in my, when I was a postdoc with Dr. Bruce Ames at the Children's Hospital Oakland Research Institute, there was a variety of clinical studies that I was a part of where they, my colleagues had designed this, this nutrient dense bar that had a variety of vitamins and minerals. It also had DHA, which is one of the marine omega 3 fatty acids found in fish. And it also had fiber, a fiber matrix. And there was a variety of studies that we were doing in obese and lean individuals.

And so it was like the ultimate food bar. It was like everything you need in.

This, it was like the, you know, it was like the micronutrient bar where you were giving the micronutrients, but you were delivering them with a food matrix like fiber, right?

Yes.

And there's all these benefits that were found from this, from this bar that were particularly benefits found in people that were overweight or obese that we didn't ask them to change their diet, they were eating their same diet. But you give them this bar on top of that and you would have improvements. You have improvements and inflammation and like HDL cholesterol, which is a good type of cholesterol. So you'd have all these improvements. But if you took away that food matrix and just had the bar without the fiber and just the micronutrients, some of those benefits would go away. But if you fiber by itself the benefits would go away. It was the whole package was everything together that was important. So, you know, with that said, I do think there is a place for supplementation, and particularly with fish oil. I think fish oil is one of those supplements that I. Every day I take it. And I think that there's just mounting evidence that it's beneficial. I mean, high dose, it has to be in the right dose for some people. And it's. I mean, it's been shown to really lower triglycerides, for example. But again, there's conflicting studies and a lot of times when you look at these clinical trials, it all has to do with dose. It has to do with were they taking a statin, for example, which can sort of mask some of the benefits. You know, there's all sorts of things that are complications. It complicates everything. And then you get all this data and you're like, wait a minute, but yesterday was not good for you. Today it is.

I know, right? How are you supposed to know when there's so much information out there about medical news, about health news, nutrition news, supplement news? How do you know what to trust when there's just so much news out there about what's working and what's not working?

I mean, it's hard to know. It's hard. I have to. It's hard for me to kind of sort through it. You know, then you add the list, this layer of genetics that's also complicating, particularly with the randomized controlled trials. Like there's genes that people have where they actually need a higher dose of fish oil to have benefits, which is super interesting. There's also genes where people that get Omega 3 from the plant source because there's a plant form alpha linoleic acid ALA that from chia seeds or flax seeds or walnuts, they don't convert that ALA into the EPA and DHA very well. And those EPA and DHA are ultimately what are regulating everything that's important for health. So again, you know, you have the genetics that comes into. And this is also the case for studies on saturated fat. You know, the genetics plays a role in that as well. So there's all sorts of. There's so many factors when designing a clinical trial. And I think the burden is on the researchers. The researchers have to come to a consensus and realize.

But then. But then a decade later, they may come to a new consensus with new research where it's like we thought, I don't know, leafy greens were healthy, but now it's Actually killing you. Right. It's like, I don't. Not that that's going to happen, but I'm just saying it seems like over decades what scientists and researchers think sometimes is accurate. We find later evidence that it may not be 100% true.

That that is true. That is true. But I think when you have overwhelming evidence in multiple fields and multiple areas, so you have the epidemiological evidence, you have the associative studies, you have the randomized control trials where they're, you know, you start and you give someone something and then you measure an endpoint, the double SIBO testing. Right. And then you have the mechanistic studies where you start to look at how it's happening and you do these animal studies, you know, that together, combined, the whole, the whole, you know, comprehensive literature, I would say, is what really strengthens.

Yeah. The matrix of studies.

When everything. Right. When everything starts to come and point to that direction.

I have so many questions. This one just came to my mind really quick as I, you know, I live in Los Angeles, I'm from Ohio. So being from Ohio, you grow up eating meat and cheese and milk. I remember I lived in a dorm I went to in eighth grade, I went to a private school, boarding school, and I lived in a dorm with a bunch of other kids in middle school. And I actually had a milk dispenser, a five gallon whole milk dispenser. And I would drink that every three days by myself, five gallons within three days because I thought milk was good. You're supposed to drink it all day long, you know, you drink it before sleep, everything. I have a question about being in LA now, growing up in Ohio, which is all about meat and potatoes. Now being in la, it's all about being vegan. And everything is around. Everything is around either keto or veganism or paleo or vegan. It's like you're, you're good, you're bad, you're right, you're wrong. There's documentaries that are coming out all the time about veganism, all that stuff. If you had to calculate with your wealth of information and knowledge who would be healthier? The person who is vegan eating the best foods all day, or the meat eater eating the best, healthiest foods all day. Who do you think would have a healthy.

The meat eater also would be. Including eating vegetables, including plants and vegetables as well. But they're an omnivore.

Yes, they're eating meat, but they're also eating all the other good foods. Or someone who's eating all the other good foods, excluding meat.

Veganism went, taking out all the processed foods in both camps, right, Both camps, Whole Foods Healthy.

One is having meat every day, a portion of meat and one is not having meat. Who is a healthier, happier human being that lives longer?

Well I can tell you, I don't know but we can talk about what the evidence has shown and I think probably the strongest evidence to date, most of this evidence is unfortunately epidemiological because you're never going to get a randomized controlled trial that's 50 years long. You know, I mean you're just, you're not going to, that's just not going to happen. It's too expensive and people won't follow the same diet for that long. Right. So you won't ever have a longevity study that's a randomized control trial. But looking at the epidemiological studies for a long time you'd have study after study coming out showing oh, eating vegetarians have a lower, what's called all cause mortality than non vegetarians or than people that eat animal meat. All cause mortality means basically dying from all types of diseases that are non accidental diabetes, cancer, type 2 diabetes, obesity. Exactly, heart disease. So vegetarians diet, lots of studies have shown that. But with the problem with epidemiological studies is there's what are called confounding factors. So you have people that are also obese, you have people that are sedentary, you have people that exercise, you have people that smoke, you have, you know, so what about all those other things, how do those come into play? Right, interesting. And so there have now been studies, large, large studies that have looked at confounding factors and have found yes, vegetarians do have lower all cause mortality, particularly cancer related mortality than people who eat meat. But when you take all the unhealthy lifestyle factors away. So people that are not obese don't smoke, that are physically active and that don't consume excessive alcohol, if they eat meat, they have the same mortality rate as a vegetarian. But if you take the meat eater and you add one of those in like obesity, then they are going to have a higher. Sorry, yeah, higher mortality rate than the vegetarian. So basically I think there's lots of reasons. I think for one we know that meat has a different amino acid profile and part of that amino acid profile can activate a hormone, a very important hormone. But it's got sort of, it's like a double edged sword hormone. It's called IGF1, insulin growth factor like 1. And this hormone is an important hormone, like during development, it helps you grow. I mean, it's needed to grow. People that have genetic, you know, polymorphisms in genes that affect that pathway and have less of it, have stunted growth. So it's important for growth, it's important for muscle repair. Like you want to, you want IGF1 in your muscles to help repair muscle after, you know, after you, after you injure them or after you exercise. Right. That's the type of injury you're.

But can't you get that from supplementation, from protein or supplements as well?

Well, so this is the, this is the bottom line is that the IGF one, which is activated by essential amino acids, you know, you've got like leucine, for example, methionine, these things. It also is important for, in the brain for growing new neurons. I'm just telling you the importance of it because the problem with IGF1 is that as we age and we accumulate damage within our cells and we, and this happens to everyone and you have a cell that, let's say a cell gets enough damage, it has a mutation that could potentially become a cancer causing mutation. The IGF one that's around, which is around a lot more in meat eaters, it allows a damaged cell to overcome signals in our body that will usually kill it and say, oh, this has got damage. If we don't kill it, it could become cancer. IGF1 goes, no, no, no, grow, keep growing.

And so IGF, it's a growth hormone or stimulus.

Exactly what it is. Yeah. And in fact.

So it's going to grow any cancer or any disease, it's going to allow.

Things to grow more. Yeah. So that's, that's kind of part of the problem is that why is obese or smoker, you know, doing things that are, you know, excess excess, causing excess damage, then that could put you at risk. Right.

Because I've heard stories and seen cases of people that were eating meat, got some type of cancer, whether it be early form cancer or some stage of cancer, went complete vegetarian, vegan, and it stopped growing. I've heard stories of that. I don't know if that's 100% accurate or if there's other factors that played into that. Without chemo, without those types of things, is that possible?

Well, I've certainly, you know, I've certainly heard anecdotal stories of that as well. And there's been animal studies showing that. And when you take an animal and let's say you inject it with a human cancer cell to form a tumor and then you give that animal a high protein, high protein versus low protein diet. Then the low protein diet blunts the cancer growth, whereas the high one. But that doesn't mean that eating meat causes cancer. It doesn't mean that. It means that if you already have.

Cancer, it's going to accelerate it potentially.

Can, Potentially. Yeah. I, you know, I think that the key here also is exercise. Exercise, you know, helps take that IGF one and move it into the brain and move it into muscle cells where it's doing good stuff. You want IGF1 in your brain. IGF1 is important to grow new neurons, which, I mean, as we age, you know, neurodegenerative disease is a big risk. And you want to, you want to, you know, grow new neurons in old age. It also allows existing neurons to survive. So exercise increases IGF1 in the brain. It also helps increase it in muscle tissue as well. So I think that's one of the reasons why you look at the meat eaters and the ones that are physically active, not obese. Basically, if you don't have these unhealthy lifestyle factors, then I think that eating meat is healthy. And honestly, I think that a vegetarian you really like, you have to do a lot of work to make sure that you're getting all the right nutrients. There's, there's risk factors for deficiencies in zinc, which is found in, you know, in meat products, risk factors for deficiencies in obviously B12 and other things. You know, just making sure you're getting the right profile. So you definitely want to make sure you're. And I don't know what all the combinations are. You know, like you have to quinoa.

And the beans and the right, right, right, the proteins. What would be if you were a meat eater? But you said, you know what, I want to cut out certain types of meat. I want to be a more conscious meat eater, if that's a thing. And I want to be a healthier meat eater. And I only want to choose like one to three different types of meat. We've got wild Alaskan caught salmon as one piece of meat. What would be the other two that you would add if these were the only meats you're going to eat? Because you would try to minimize your consumption of meat. What would be the other two types of meat that you think would be beneficial for your health and brain memory? And.

Well, I would, I would say based on interesting studies that have been done, looking at what is called epigenetic age. Epigenetic age is probably one of the, I would say it's the fastest growing biomarkers for what's called biological age and at versus chronological age. So people can be biologically younger or biologically older than their chronological age.

Right. I can 37, but I could be 17. Right. Like my internal health.

I would say genetics would probably play a bigger role in that than lifestyle. I don't think diet, lifestyle will put you back that far. But yes, it's the season to come together over your holiday favorites at Starbucks. Warm up with a creamy caramel bread brulee latte, get festive with an iced gingerbread chai, or share a velvety peppermint mocha. Together is the best place to be at Starbucks.

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Eating anything crap, obese, not sedentary. There's, there's lots of, there's lots of lifestyle factors that can make you have an older biological age. And those are the things we just mentioned. Obesity, sedentary smoking, excess alcohol consumption. But there's also been studies looking at dietary patterns and supplement intake as well. And what epigenetic age is, is basically it looks at what are called methylation patterns. Methylation are methyl. It's like basically a carbon with three hydrogen atoms. And what they're doing is they're basically sitting on top of your DNA and changing the way genes are turned on and turned off. And what's really interesting is that this methylation pattern, this work has been done, was really pioneered by Dr. Steve Horbath at UCLA. And he basically showed that he could look at these, he could take some DNA and look at the methylation pattern. And with like 96% accuracy, he could predict your age plus or minus four years. Like it's super accurate. And then he's developed a bunch of other clocks, these epigenetic aging clocks that can be more accurately predict biological age. And so what he's found is that there's an association with lower biological epigenetic age when you're eating fish or poultry, which I found very interesting. I know this was a very long.

Winded answer to your question, birds and fish.

And based on that kind of for a while was like, well, what's the real benefit of poultry? I might, you know, I might not get more red meat and have more iron and, you know, so, so that, that, that study kind of made me think about it and I'm like, oh, well, that's because red meat wasn't associated with the, with a lower epigenetic age. So I thought that was really interesting. And so that, so would you say.

Would you say eating red meat is making us older?

No, I don't think there's evidence of that. I do. I will say that the red meat studies are extremely nuanced because lots of times stuff is glumped together with processed meat. Like, you know, the lunch meats and the bacon and the sausage and the processed meat. There's a layer of complication on that, and that is that it has nitrites in it. Nitrites are preservatives. The problem is that they can also form nitrosamines in the body, which are potential carcinogens. They can cause DNA damage and do all sorts of terrible things. So a lot of red meats studies are really, there's a lot of nuance there with, with that. And in fact, in all, with a lot of the red meat studies, there's been a lot of studies looking at red meat consumption and type 2 diabetes risk. And it's weird because there's an increased risk with red meat consumption study after study after. So once in a while I'll get like a vegan that'll throw me a question and they'll send me some links and I'm like, wow, there's something to this. Like, I didn't realize that, you know, so I'll look into it. And this is, you know, how you kind of learn things from really good questions and from people that send you links to studies.

Sure.

And so my team and I were looking into this and we finally, after reading just, you know, dozens of studies, there was one consistent theme within all the studies showing that red meat consumption increases type 2 diabetes risk, and that was BMI. It only did it in people with a high BMI, for the most part.

Body mass index is that BMI.

And BMI is not a great. I mean, like someone that has a lot of muscle can be categorized as high bmi. So it's not a great, it's not a great indicator. But generally speaking, if you're obese, you've got a higher bmi. So that was, that was the interesting, interesting thing. Again, let's.

With, I mean, let's. So poultry and fish would Be the things that are the best meats to eat from. Based on what I'm hearing you say from your mentor and from the research so far, what we have, I would.

I would say yeah. I mean, so far, only picking two.

Meats, it's fish and poultry. Right.

I hate to say it. I don't, you know, I don't really know, but.

Right.

I found those studies interesting.

Okay.

And I would, I would say that I don't. I still am not convinced that red meat is bad unless you're obese or you're overweight and you're eating red meat and you got to work on losing. You work on the losing weight.

How old is your child right now?

Two and a half.

Two and a half.

Yes.

As a mom and a scientist and researcher, what are the healthy foods out there that people in the mass population think as healthy that you will never want your child to eat?

Oh, I think there's all sorts of processed toddler foods you'll find out there. And I've experimented with a couple on myself. I wear a continuous glucose monitor just to see how my body responds to various foods in terms of increasing blood glucose levels. So that's called postprandial blood glucose. And I'm also interested in my fasting blood glucose levels, how different lifestyle factors affect that. And I should mention this, that basically we were talking all about these studies with eating meat and vegetarians. And you know, there's also a huge layer of complication with genetics. Believe it or not, there are genes that people have that eating a high protein diet makes them actually gain weight and have poor lipids. And there are genes that people have that eating a high protein diet makes them lose weight. The complete opposite.

So you need to know your, need to know your genetics first, really before the diet you eat.

The genetics may tell you the why of some of the conflicting research. And this goes for fats as well. There are genes, people that eat saturated fat, they can have an increased glucose response versus most, most the time. What increases your postprandial glucose response is actually carbohydrates, particularly refined carbohydrates. But, but there are, there are situations that, that that's not true. There was this beautiful study published back in 2015 in the, in the Journal of Cell Metabolism. It was done at the Weisman Institute in Israel. And I love this study because they put continuous glucose monitors like I'm wearing now on 800 people.

And is this something like in your stomach and your arm, like in your.

Right on my abdominal right here. It's like a little side.

The skin.

So it's like a little micro needle. It's like tiny little micro needle that goes through. Yeah, but you. It doesn't.

Baby, it's.

Yeah, it's like. It doesn't hurt at all.

Okay, so it's on you 24 7.

It is, yeah. Most of the time I wear. I mean, it expires every 10 days and I have to, like, replace it. And sometimes I take a couple days off and, you know. But yes, I'm where I've learned. We can talk about. I've learned a ton of things from that. But I was getting to a point.

The wiseman.

Sorry, I'm The Wiseman.

Yes.

800. 800 people wearing this continuous glucose monitor. They gave these people a variety of different types of foods. You know, they gave them high fat, they gave them a high refined carbohydrate like white bread. They gave them complex carbohydrate like a banana and measured their glucose response to a variety of foods. And what was so enlightening and illuminating about this study was that everyone had different responses to these foods. And it was. They also then did genetic testing on these people and they measured microbiome and also physical activity. And it turns out all those things play a role in their blood glucose response, their genetics, their microbiome composition, how much they exercise, I think, and then sleep also. But that wasn't part of. So that's another. Those are other studies. But the point is that, you know, we're sitting here talking about people's response to, for example, red meat. I think that as moving forward, this field of this interaction between genes and diet, it's called nutrigenomics, I think that field is growing and more clinical studies will start to include it. The problem is it's more expensive. Anytime you have to add another clinical test, particularly if it involves getting a sample of DNA. Although these days now you can get them from saliva. And so it shouldn't be as difficult, but. But again, it's just another layer of, you know.

Yeah. So what would the healthy foods be that you would never want your kid to eat?

Right, Exactly. So that's. I was getting to other. There's these. There's these foods that are organic, Almond butter, little snacks and all this. And so I was trying this stuff and it. I mean, just tiny little thing raised my blood glucose levels, like just unbelievably high, like as if I had eaten like two meals.

No way.

You know, and so, yeah, it was insane. Some of these stuff that just has some added. A little bit of added sugar or a little, you know, so it's just really. I would stay away from all those foods that are packaged. You know, the. I see like, children eating these squeezy foods and stuff. And I've never. I've never given my son that. I know that it's a lot of work making food. Of course, definitely a lot of work. But there's new. There's like, companies out there now that'll like, give, you know, send you, like, already, like, made great organic, real food.

Exactly.

So there's, there's. There's.

What are like five foods that you think are hurting us on a daily basis? Like in terms of just like sugar, bread, rice, like, what would you say are the fives that we should never be eating?

Unless I would say. I mean, I don't know if I can categorize it to fives. I would say that probably the biggest thing to avoid is refined carbohydrates. Refined carbohydrates are really, you know, like, what are.

Where do we see refined carbohydrates the most? Is that cereals? Is that bread?

Yes, cereals, Breads. Most of the time. I mean, not all breads have. Have them, but like, you know, a lot of the. The white breads and stuff, white flour, like in pizza, you know, you know, cookies, cakes, all that pretzels, like those things, the refined. The refined carbohydrates. There's really just no nutritional value. I mean, the whole point of food is to provide your body with. With the nutrients it needs to. To, you know, not only be healthy now, but to also age healthy. And I think that people get really focused a lot on macronutrients like prot. Carbohydrate fat. And they don't realize that all these micronutrients that I mentioned, there's 40 that you have to get from your diet, you know, like, those are important. These things are there, what are called cofactors for enzymes that are running your metabolism, enzymes that are producing neurotransmitters in your brain so your brain can function and, you know, if you don't get enough, like magnesium. You know, magnesium is found at the center of a chlorophyll molecule. Chlorophylls what give plants their green color. Yeah, so magnesium is very high in dark leafy greens. Almost half the country in the United States doesn't get enough magnesium from their food. There's been, you know, large nutritional surveys and stuff that have. That have shown that year after year. And the problem with magnesium is like, you know, you need it to make energy. You need it to make and use energy, but you also need it to repair damage, DNA damage. And so you can imagine what happens if you're short in that essential mineral. Your body might actually triage the mineral to the short term thing, energy making energy. If you can't make energy, you're gonna die. So of course your body's gonna say, any magnesium I have, it's gonna go to that essential process, DNA repair. Like that's, that's something that only matters in your fifth, sixth, seventh decade of life. Cancer crops up, right? So who cares if that's not, you know, 100% optimally working? This whole, this whole idea of sort of triaging micronutrients is called triage theory. It was put forth by my mentor, Dr. Bruce Ames, and he published a couple of papers supporting evidence of that theory. But the theory is basically, and again, there's some supporting evidence with a couple of micronutrients that basically these essential vitamins and minerals, if you're short in them, they're triaged to systems based on binding constants. For example, some minerals will bind tighter to some enzymes versus other ones. And so the ones that are biting tighter are the enzymes that are important for short term health to prevent you from dying, basically versus long term health. Things like repairing damaged DNA, which doesn't matter right now. You can't see DNA damage. You know, it's not something, but it's happening. It's happening all the time. So I think micronutrients are really important. And the food that you're going to find, micro foods that you're going to find them in are whole foods. You're going to find them in plants, you're going to find them in meats. Meats are a great source of micronutrients. Organ meats are also a great source of organ meats. A lot of people, yeah, organ meats, like liver, that would be probably the stuff that I know. It's just, it's, it's really an acquired taste. I recently found, there's a, there's a company that I found will make ground meat with a certain percentage of liver and kidney.

And so it tastes better another one.

And if I make it, if I put it like in a, you know, if I, if I make like a chili or something, like, you can't taste it.

You're just like, you can't taste it.

And so I'm getting, I'm getting, you know, some of the organ Meats, which is kind of fun as well.

Gosh. I remember when I went to my first time I went to Mexico city, it was 2008, 2008, early 2008. I was wearing a full arm cast. So I'm already six, four gringo, white guy in the middle of Mexico. I'm a foot taller than everyone in Mexico City. I'm wearing this cast because I had surgery on my wrist. I broke my wrist. They did a bone graft from my hip to my wrist playing arena football. So I got injured and I went to Mexico City. I stayed in a $7 a day hostel right near the center of Mexico City. And I said to myself, you know what? I have the palate of a seven year old, but I'm going to be adventurous on this trip. I'm going to try things, I'm going to expand my horizons, and I'm just going to say yes to foods. And there was one point. I went to a lucha libre match, a luchador match, which is like the, the wrestling of Mexico, right? Where they wear masks and they wrestle. And outside of this wrestling match, I went to watch as a fan. I went outside because nacho libre had come out right before this. So I became familiar of the sport. It's a movie, Jack Black. Fun movie. And there was all these street carts of food outside of this match. And I said, you know what? Give me everything to this one guy. He started saying, I was like, what is this, this, this? And he was saying all these things. And I heard him say, cortisone, which is heart. And I was like, oh, that's the heart. And then one was a tongue and one was the liver and this and this. And I said, throw it all in there. And so he made me a taco with all of it. And it's probably because it was street meat. It wasn't that healthy. I was sick for the next three days. But I'm always weary of that stuff. So make sure you get organic, clean meats when you do it.

Okay? So you're kind of reminding me. I went to Japan a couple of years ago and same deal. Like my husband. I went to this sushi place and the chef, there was no English and there was just stuff on the menu and we just got it. And apparently it was like tongue and all sorts of. And this is. I think it was raw. Think it was. No, it was slightly cooked. Yeah, it was slightly cooked. But there was another sushi place we went to and they, they. If you didn't, it was like at this Famous fish market. I forgot the name of it already because I didn't have my blueberries this morning. But basically, if you don't speak Japanese, you get the one for all sushi menu. Oh, yeah, yeah. And so we went there and so we, you know, of course didn't speak Japanese. And so we got whatever they gave us. And it like had, I think it was like turtle or something. And I was just so sad because I love turtles and I didn't want to eat the turtle anyways, so.

Oh, man. Okay, so the foods, the foods, we're here, we should not be eating cereal, breads, pizzas, cookies, cakes, anything with refined carbs, refined sugars.

No, no, that's probably the biggest thing to cut out, I think, cutting that out. If people could cut that out. You know, the sweetened sugar, sweetened beverages. Huge.

What are the, what are the things that are super healthy marketed wise? I mean, beside beyond cereals, breads and pizza, which they say, they try to make them sound healthy. But the things that might seem healthier that we shouldn't be eating. Are there certain fruits and vegetables or other things that maybe like, you know what, these actually hurt the body, then help them?

Well, see, I think I haven't seen any research showing that fruits and vegetables hurt the body. But there are fruits. You know, I've been wearing my glucose, continuous glucose monitor. There are fruits that I can tell you for sure raise my postprandial blood glucose levels insanely high and still leave me hungry and unsatiated. And that would be great. Rapes are like there. So there was this one time we were, I was traveling and my son was like. I don't know, he was like, he was less than 1 and I was trying to get him a fruit cup with. It had some cantaloupe, you know, because he was still eating. He was eating solid, solid foods at that point. But grapes are a choking hazard. And so like the grapes, I'm like, oh, no, no, let me get. I was like eating the grapes out of the, you know, out of the little fruit cup real quick because I didn't want him to like, you know, have the even potential of grabbing them and. And my blood glucose levels just rose so high. I mean, it was insane. So then I tested it again and same thing, tested it again, same thing. So I would say, does it have.

To do with DNA, your DNA? Would it be different for someone else's DNA or G?

I think it just has to do with the sugar, the ratio of sugar to fiber. So one of the things that's really consistent with lowering the postprandial glucose response is fiber, more fiber. And that was actually shown in that study that I mentioned, that Weisman institute study with 800 people. One thing that was consistent throughout that was that high fiber did slow the glucose response.

But so if you had a little bit, if you had like some almond butter by itself, the glucose levels would shoot up. But if you had almond butter with, I don't know, some fiber.

Actually what's really interesting is that you bring up another important point. Interesting point. Almond butter typically doesn't have a lot of sugar unless it's added sugar. I mean, so, so I get almond butter.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you can, you can have a little bit in there and it actually won't really raise your blood glucose levels, particularly because protein also seems to blunt some of that. But what's interesting is there's been some studies and I've tested this myself. If I eat like protein or fiber, and you eat it like 10 minutes before you are going to eat, let's say some grapes or in someone else's case, like you, who's maybe eating a cookie or something, right?

Yeah, a whole.

So it actually lowers the blood glucose levels. It lowers the postprandial blood glucose levels of protein. This has been shown in a couple studies in people with type 2 diabetes.

So if I eat a cake for dinner by itself, my glucose levels are going to go up. If I have meat fiber and then 10 minutes later have a little bit of gelato or a little bit of tiramisu or something, you know.

A little better than the tiramisu. Yeah, it's better than it by itself. That probably is why, I mean, humans probably notice. That's why dessert comes after the meal. Right.

I just eat dessert for breakfast, lunch and dinner growing up, you know. Okay, this is fascinating. So no grapes.

Yeah. So if you're talking about the so called healthy foods, you know, I think, you know, I think that there's some people also can have a big, you know, bowl of oatmeal with a bunch of, you know, stuff in it, and they may have a higher blood glucose response. That also really, I think does depend a lot on people's exercise routines. Like I've noticed in myself that if I, if I go out for a run low oatmeal doesn't really affect me as much as if I don't, you know.

So you talk. We're talking about health in general here. We're talking about the brain and food connection right now. In the world, it seems like mental health and depression is a hot topic. It's something a lot of people are talking about. They're having mental health challenges, depression challenges. And I'm sure there's many factors to this social media comparison. Bad foods, a lack of exercise, a lack of sleep, anxiety, up all night environment, lack of purpose, lack of. There's a lot of social factors probably that tie into mental health challenges. How important is food by itself and relating to minimizing depression, social anxiety and mental health?

I think food is extremely important because it's directly linked to obesity. Obesity itself causes low grade inflammation and foods that are really high, particularly when you combine a high saturated fat with a high refined sugar. So let's say you're eating your, you're drinking your glass of milk with your cookie, like that's the worst because you're getting the saturated fat and the sugar.

My whole job.

And, and that's been shown to cause a very high, what's called postprandial inflammatory response. We've been talking about postprandial glucose response, which is after you eat. So postprandial, there's a inflammatory response that also occurs after eating. And inflammation itself has been shown to inflammatory molecules cross the blood brain barrier and they play a role in basically depressing dopamine signaling and serotonin and all sorts of affecting neurotransmitters and brain function. And there's been studies directly showing that if you inject a person with an inflammatory cytokine, it causes depressive symptoms versus injected with saline. Yes.

So the more inflammation we have in the body, it increases depression.

Exactly. Inflammation. We used to think again, the brain was separate from the body and that, you know, the immune system and all that didn't, didn't, you know, affect the brain. Turns out that was all wrong. Absolutely wrong. And these inflammatory mediators do get into the brain and they get into the brain and they change, you know, they're changing the firing of certain neurotransmitters and things like that. They're also activating the resident immune cells in the brain called microglia, astrocytes. Microglia, a type of astrocyte. And you know that that also is linked to depression. And so we put out a little short video on this, on an animated video actually, on depression, inflammation and depression. And talk about a lot of the studies because it's something, I don't think people realize that the food you eat, and not only the food you eat, your lifestyle, you know, being obese and overweight, being sedentary Being sedentary, You know, exercise is one of the best anti inflammatory medicines you can get, period. And it also happens to be one of the, you know, best lifestyle remedies for depression as well. And I mean randomized controlled trials showing that all sorts of evidence.

So is this any type of exercise or are you a HIIT training cardio, 30 minutes, 60 minutes. What's your opinion?

Well, there's been, there's been studies looking at, you know, I would say the large body of evidence seems to show aerobic exercise is really important with respect to depression. And that is because aerobic exercise leads to increases in what's called brain derived neurotrophic factor, BDNF as it's called. It's basically a growth factor that's Produced after just 20 minutes of a moderate intensity workout. You can increase your level, you can find levels increase by like up to 30% in plasma. It crosses into the brain and in the brain it does a lot of things. Not only does it do what IGF1 does, it actually grows new neurons, it helps you grow new neurons and it helps your neurons survive. So it plays an important role in preventing brain aging. But something else very unique that it does, it plays a role in what's called neuroplasticity. Neuroplasticity is like your brain's ability to adapt to stressful conditions. You know, I mean this is what children can do pretty, pretty good. As you get older, neuroplasticity goes down as does everything. But neuroplasticity is important for being able to cope with stress, like the stress of a pandemic, for example. You know, more neuroplasticity helps with those stressful divorce people are going through, you know, are losing your job, lots of, lots of stressful things. But neuroplasticity helps the brain cope with that and brain derived neurotrophic factor helps increase neuroplasticity, which decreases with age. So again, aerobic exercise was important. But you know, there's been studies linking strength training to lower depression rates as well.

Yeah, any type of exercise will help.

Exactly. I do, but I really think that aerobic there is, that there is a place for aerobic with respect to the bdnf, the brain drive neurotropics.

I always tell people that every day I try to put myself through some type of physical pain that makes me feel discomfort, whether that's sweating for 10 minutes or a two hour workout or playing basketball, hiking, whatever. I try to put my mind and body through something where I'm like Gosh, I don't want to do this. But by putting myself through pain, controlled pain, it sets me up to be more under control when there is chaos and pain.

Right.

I think that's the key we should get to is like controlled pain, healthy pain so that you're not out of control when there is chaos and pain in the world.

What you're describing scientists often refer to as hormesis and that is basically a little bit of stress on the body like exercise. Basically because our body tries to maintain home, what's called homeostasis. A little bit of stress will cause our body to respond to that stress with a lot of anti stress, anti inflammatory, antioxidant, growing new brain cells, any, all these beneficial things. So wow, a little bit of stress gives you a lot of good stuff. Right?

Interesting.

Whereas low grade chronic stress all the time, it doesn't do anything. You're not getting that, you're not getting that powerful.

Yeah. This is power. This is amazing. I'm going to say something that I hope I don't offend anyone when I say it that I am all about self love, self care, loving yourself for who you are, accepting yourself for where you're at in your life, physically, emotionally, environment, financially, all that. The more I hear you talk about this, the self love movement of accept who you are and accept where you're at with your body and what you eat and it's okay to eat whatever you want, just love yourself for who you are. Is that self love mentality, that specific type of mentality killing people and hurting them if they aren't willing to adapt? A no, it's not okay to continue to eat whatever you want all the time and just love yourself and accept yourself for who you are. You have to make sure you arm your body and your mind and your health with the nutrients, the tools, the exercise in order to decrease depression and increase happiness.

I think that there's the, you know. Absolutely. If you're going to just eat what you want and accepting obese that you will, you'll be causing yourself more harm and both physically and mentally. And that also probably affects your loved ones as well, you know, that care about you or perhaps that you're interacting with and you're in a terrible mood. And so you know when your neighbor's happy, you're happy. Right. You know, so I think that there's part of this movement, I think there's a fine balance between you don't want to have your expectations so high that you can never be happy.

Yeah, I'm never gonna look perfect and someone's always skinnier than me and I'm.

Never gonna have blue eyes. I'm never, I'm never, you know, so if I'm always like, well, only people with blue eyes are the prettiest, like, then I'll never be happy. So like that's an unreasonable expectation. Right. In my mind. So I mean, there are things where, you know, like, I'm never gonna be a billionaire and if that, if that's all I wanted in life, to be happy, I'll never be happy. So there are things I think that you can, There's a certain balance between. You want your expectations to be high in a way. You want to always aim for what you, you know, aim for the stars in a way and try to like, work hard to get there. But there is sort of, there are certain things that, you know, you do have to lower but.

Sorry, go ahead. I don't want to.

Yeah, but, but with what? So what I'm trying to say is I think that self love movement came from somewhere. Right. I think there was, there was something to that. Right. But I think it's sort of spiraled out of control. And what's happened now is you're saying, well, accept things that I don't want to change rather than you can, because you can change that. You can lose weight, you can eat.

Different foods and get different decisions. Yeah, they might be. I mean, sorry, I want to keep on.

Go ahead. It's definitely look like with people that are eating refined sugar, people that are drinking these sugar sweetened beverages. And there's a lot of people, maybe not so many people listening to the podcast or watching it, but there are people that do. And you know, there's been studies that have shown refined sugar acts on the reward pathway in the brain, dopamine pathway in a very similar manner to controlled substances drugs like nicotine.

Yes.

Methamphetamine, not to the same degree, but they're acting on the same systems and.

They'Re increases a feel good hormone when you take it for the moment, but then it makes you decline afterwards and crash.

Right, it does. And you know, I think the important point to realize with that is that when you take that away, when you stop, what happens is there is a withdrawal. And it's been shown, at least with, for example with nicotine studies, that so basically what happens, you know, your dopamine's getting constantly fired, fired, fired. And so you're what's called dopamine receptors, which basically dopamine axon to make you feel good, those start to decrease because your neurons are going, oh well, I have so much of this around, I don't need so many of the receptors. So when you take away that thing that's causing the dopamine all the time to go away, you have fewer receptors and now you don't feel as much. I mean, it's just really bad. You're not feeling any amount of dopamine. Right. But it's been shown that that sort of normalizes within three months. And three months is a long time, but it's actually not that long of.

Cutting out the sugar.

You mean of like this has been shown with nicotine? I'm just drawing.

Gotcha, gotcha.

I'm drawing a parallel saying, look, it's not going to be easy the first month.

It's not going to be easy. So hard. It's so hard.

It's not going to be the first month, it may not be easy the second month, but it's going to get easier. And it's not only is it going to get easier, you're going to be.

Happier, your body's going to regulate itself, the hormones are going to regulate, right? Things are going to self regulate.

Yeah, things start to get back to normal. Exactly.

It's very challenging. But it's necessary to get healthier and happier, right?

It is. I don't think people realize that depression, it's not just a genetic disorder. It's not just something that can't be fixed ever. Now in some cases, you know, there, there are, you know, there are definitely genetic cases of depression. I'm not saying that that's not the case.

But can you heal depression through food and nutrition and exercise?

Well, there have been studies that have shown that exercise can be a treatment for depression. And there have been studies that shown changing someone's diet can also improve depression, depressive scores and particularly the combined two is even more robust, which makes sense, you know, so I think there's something for people to realize. People that are maybe eating not so healthy diet, people that are overweight, overweight, definitely obese. And if they do have depression, there very well could be a link between the diet, the lifestyle, the obesity fat cells itself, they also increase, they produce inflammatory cytokines. So independent of the whole eating the diet and the postprandial inflammatory response, just having fat, like particularly visceral fat like around your organs and stuff like this stuff, this stuff is causing low grade inflammation. And do you know what low grade inflammation is? It means that you're basically activating Your immune cells a little bit all the time. And activated immune cells require a ton of energy. So you're taking energy away from your.

Brain, from defending itself.

Yeah, from just having a great day.

Just having energy.

It's like a sink. Exactly. Just having energy. It's a sink. Low grade inflammation. I mean you were telling me this, we were chatting a little bit earlier about how you were eating this terrible diet back when you were doing your arena football and you were always tired.

Always tired.

Low grade inflammation. It's an energy sink because it requires so much energy to activate your immune cells and there's only so much energy. It's like a triage. Right? It's triaging there, it's taken somewhere else.

And it takes you away from your mission, from your vision of your life, from your career, from your energy with your family, your friends.

Yeah, you have to have energy. I mean it takes motivation to want to go to the gym. It takes motivation also to want to like do stuff or to talk to people, to, you know, is there a.

Genetic thing that, or DNA thing that holds someone back from losing that weight if they've tried for years or is this still, you know, they're just lacking the discipline? What is that?

There's absolutely many genes that regulate obesity. And my like, I'll just tell you, my mother in law, she is also little, not obese. She's you know, has in the past had an overweight problem and has tried. I mean she's the kind of person that tries and goes all in and she has tried every diet, just everything and just nothing seemed to work. And so I personally know people like, so I mean how does someone like.

That, if they try, try, try. And it's just like, you know what, I'm beating myself up. The diets, I'm trying, the exercise is not working. What do they need to shift?

Well, I just, you asked about genetics and there is a really important role for genetics as well. But I think that in order to know that you're going to have to measure biomarkers in your blood. So you're going to have to measure lipids like your LDL cholesterol, different particle sizes of those cholesterol, inflammatory biomarkers like high sensitivity reactive protein, your triglycerides, your HbA1c which is a long term measure of your long term blood glucose levels, measure those things and also you can get a genetic test. There's a variety of genetic testing services out there. 23andMe AncestryDNA. And basically so I do have a genetic report that Basically we look exclusively or looking at genes that are affecting basically interacting with diet and there's a lot of genes. So people that are eating a high protein diet, some people with a certain SNP which is a one change in one nucleotide of DNA in a gene basically can gain more weight and the opposite is true. Like I mentioned, or eating the ratio of saturated fat to polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fat. So saturated fats found in foods like dairy, red meat, fatty cuts of red meat, polyunsaturated fats found in fish. Monounsaturated fat is found in olive oil, olives, you know, nuts. So these things like even the ratio of those things can affect, depending on someone's genetics, their ability to gain or lose weight and more so like people, there's some people have it where they eat a high carbohydrate diet and they gain more weight.

So it's not as simple as what I'm hearing you say as just eat less calories a day and you should lose weight.

Not always.

If you suppress the calorie intake, you're going to burn more and eventually you're going to burn.

You know, I think that's the one thing that's pretty tried and true is that your caloric restriction, most of the time people will lose weight, lose weight. But the question is how sustainable is that? Maybe what you would need to do. The other thing is that a lot of times obesity, there's a dysregulation in hormones. Hormones like insulin, leptin is another big one. And you have to reset those hormones in order to have a normal biology. And sometimes resetting those hormones takes a reset that's kind of a strong stressor, like a long fast. A long fast, you know, where you're basically, you're basically resetting those things. And that's what did it for my mother in law. So that was my long story, get.

Along fast and help reset a couple of them.

So she did, you know, now by the way, you know, not eating for. When I say a long fast. Typically intermittent fasting is anything less than 48 hours. A longer fast would be longer than.

48 hours, three plus days.

Yeah, she did the first time she did a three day, she started out by doing sort of a caloric restriction, low calorie diet to kind of get her into it. And then she did a three day fast where she didn't eat anything. A little bit of salt, she would take a little bit of salt in and drink some water and then she did four days and she did this like, you know, separated by like a month and that reset her metabolism and all of a sudden she started losing weight. You know, and this has also been the case for a few, few other friends of mine that particularly one that's, that was morbidly obese and he lost like 180 pounds.

Oh my gosh. The one question I want to finish with before I ask you the final two questions I ask everyone is the main vitamins and supplements you feel like every human being should be taking every single day. Like what are the supplements that you take and you recommend for us. If we could take three to five every day, whether eating great food or bad food, what would you recommend?

I will tell you. There are a few supplements that I think are important and I think the evidence shows are important and that I take every day. The first is vitamin D. And you know, vitamin D, actually it gets converted into a steroid hormone. So it's a hormone, not just a vitamin. It's a hormone and it regulates like 5% of the protein encoding human genome. That's a lot genes. 5% of all your genes is vitamin D. Vitamin D thing, right? It's a lot.

Is there, is there, can you overdose on vitamin D?

Well, here's the thing with vitamin D and the reason I, and the reason I think it's so important because you can make it from the sun and you have exposure to UVB radiation. You make vitamin D3 in your skin, but you need the UVB radiation to do that. And UVB radiation.

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Wow.

They're not getting that UVB radiation.

All those exchange students from Brazil going to Wisconsin, make sure you've got your vitamin D supplements.

But here's the thing. 70% of the entire United States population, everyone included, has what's called insufficient vitamin D levels. So not just people with dark skin, everyone. And that's because we stay indoors now. We've got our computers, we've got, you know, offices. We're not out farming like we used to. And we wear sunscreen when we are out. Sunscreen blocks UVB radiation to protect us from the burning rays of the sun. So the bottom line is most people aren't getting enough vitamin D. You asked, can you take, can you take too much vitamin D? Well, vitamin D is fat soluble. It is stored in fat. There have been upper limits. So the National Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine set the tolerable upper intake at 4,000 IU's a day. And. But there's been studies showing that 10,000 IU's today still has no toxicity effects. And that's even long term for several years. Some people do require a higher vitamin D dose, particularly people that are more deficient. The only way you're going to know is to get a blood test. Getting a blood test is really important. Yeah, blood levels between 40 to 60 nanograms per milliliter are ideal according to all cause mortality studies and things like that. But okay, I think that. And also people have snips, by the way. Snips meaning genes that regulate vitamin D production. So I've had now five friends of mine that have SNPs. They found out from using our genetic report because they were supplementing with 5,7000ius of vitamin D a day and they were still deficient and couldn't figure out.

Oh goodness.

And so people, I know it's one of those things and you wouldn't. And see, it's important to get a blood test. You would never know you're taking, let's say you're taking your, your 5,000. I use a day supplement. You never get a blood test. You're gonna think you're fine. So blood test is really important, really important. You can order them at home. You know, people don't want to go to the doctor's office, order at home.

Right, right, right. So we should we be. I mean, with the, with the times that there are right now, staying inside is killing us then even though we're supposed to stay inside and stay safe.

So you're opening a whole can of worms. Because I think that there's no evidence, direct yet evidence yet that vitamin D helps Prevent or treat COVID 19. Zero evidence of that. But what I will say is that there is mounting evidence that severe cases of COVID 19, people that are in ICUs on ventilators, people that have severe cases, 98% of the severe cases people are vitamin D deficient.

Oh my gosh.

And in multiple studies in Philippines, Indonesia, New Orleans, whereas you get like 4% of people with mild or sorry, severe cases are vitamin D sufficient. And multiple studies have been showing this. And there's a really important mechanistic link here. First of all, we know from genetic studies people that are genetically low in vitamin D because of like some of those SNPs I mentioned. If you look at those SNPs itself and look at those people's, people that have those SNPs, we know they're genetically prone to low levels of vitamin D. And the only thing you look at is their genetics. They are, they have a higher death rate from respiratory tract infections than people without those SNPs. And this is a. I love these studies because it's called, it's called Mendelian randomization. The reason I love it is because there's all sorts of studies showing that low vitamin D levels also increases the risk of X, Y and Z.

Sure.

But low vitamin D levels means you're out in the sun less or maybe you're less physically active. You know, so there's all these confounding factors, but when you just take the gene and you group that person based on their gene only, not on their vitamin D levels, and it's a way of randomizing them in a way, because there's no way that there's all these confounding factors with the genetics. Right?

Yeah.

So there's also randomized control trials. There's 25 different randomized controlled trials that were all and analyzed together showing that vitamin D supplementation decreases respiratory tract infections by 50% in people that are deficient and by 10% in people that already have sufficient levels but still take a supplement. All right, that's not COVID 19. Again, no evidence. This is not that this needs to be tested.

This is just good health practice to have vitamin D. It is.

I personally think that there is a strong possibility, and this is a hypothesis, that vitamin D levels may play a role in the severity of COVID 19. It's not going to stop you from getting COVID 19. I think it may play a role in the severity of it and meaning how your body responds to it, how.

Long it takes you to heal and.

Just how severe of a case you have. Is it likely a mild case of a cold or a mild flu, or is it something that's going to take you into the icu?

Wow.

I think that's a hypothesis that needs to be tested, but based on some of the evidence I talked about and based on the fact that it. What's really known is that, you know, vitamin D is important for immune function in so many respects because of the, you know, there's vitamin D receptors on many different immune cells and it plays a role, an important role in many different immune functions. But in addition to that, the way the SARS CoV2 virus, which is the virus that causes COVID19 illness, the way it gets into a cell is through a receptor called the ACE2 receptor. The ACE2 receptor also regulates a lot of things, regulates blood pressure, fluid retention, you know, kidney function. It turns out that when the virus binds to that receptor and gets into the cell, it what it's what called down regulates that receptor. We talked about that before with dopamine. Down regulates. It means it makes fewer. It takes that receptor and pulls it inside. And so there's fewer of those receptors on the cell surface to do its job. And this was shown with SARS1, SARS CoV1 there, which caused the original SARS outbreak back in 2003, that that was shown to increase disease severity. Having less of ACE2. Believe it or not, the way that this thing gets into this, into the cells, the ACE2 is the very thing that's needed to prevent serious lung injury. There's tons of animal studies showing that lung injury itself requires ACE2. But ACE2 gets decreased because lung injury decreases. It's one of the ways that causes acute respiratory distress syndrome ARDS acute lung injury. So having ACE2 protects you and what does vitamin D do? Well, animal studies have shown, rodent studies have shown if you give an animal vitamin D and cause acute lung injury that the ACE2 levels go up and it protects them from the acute lung injury. ACE2 levels don't go up to animals that were given vitamin D but didn't have a lung injury. So in other words, the lung injury itself causes ACE2 to go down, but the vitamin D made it go back up. So what vitamin D is doing is maintaining homeostasis. Vitamin D is not a drug. It's not going to just increase ACE2 full stop in, you know, someone that doesn't have lower levels, at least according to rodent studies. The bottom line here is I think that, you know, emerging evidence suggests there is possibly a role for vitamin D in modulating disease severity. I know there are randomized control trials that are underway to test this. It's currently still a hypothesis, but I do think it is very. Most people are getting insufficient vitamin D and particularly now, now it's probably even worse. Elderly people are more at risk. People with darker skin. People with obesity is also because fat is soluble, vitamin D is less bioavailable. So anyways, my point is that I think vitamin D is important to take. Certainly people can talk to their health practitioners about it in general and particularly now. Soil is another one. I'll not ramble on as long. Fish oil is another one. And a multivitamin, I think, I think those are like basic port ones. Fish oil, I think there's a variety of brands out there. You want to get a high quality one. Fish oil is very prone to oxidation, so you want to get a higher quality one and keep it in the refrigerator. And there's sites out there like Labdoor that have third party tested oxidate, you know, different oxidative markers brands. So you can look at those sites to find a good, good brand.

Sure. Okay. This is fascinating and I love listening to your show. Found my fitness. People can listen to it on itunes, Apple, Spotify, all the places. Also foundmyfitness.com you have a premium section for more where you do a Q and A coaching type of answering questions for people, right?

I do, yeah. So found my fitness all one word. Yeah, itunes also on YouTube I do have a premium where I don't do ads or sponsors, but I do have a. We are a premium subscription where people can they get sort of perks by supporting us. And one of those perks is a monthly Q and A. I do. So they submit questions. It's live, but if you don't want it live, you also get access to it on YouTube and also a private podcast feed as well.

I love it. Yeah, you've got some incredible stuff on your podcast. I love listening to it and diving in on your research. So everyone should go listen there if you want. Again, if you want to convince Rhonda to come back on at some point in the future, whether it's this year, next year, to talk about, you know, since I have the biological age of a seven year old with a curiosity mind, if you want to hear from my perspective on fasting, anti aging, longevity, then make sure to tag her on Instagram and Twitter and all those places when you're listening to this so she maybe will come back on in the future. Where else can we follow you? Where do you hang out the most on social media?

Twitter, Instagram. Found my fitness all one word. And I'm also on Facebook and YouTube. YouTube is my YouTube channel. Found my fitness.

Amazing. That's amazing. This is the final couple questions that I ask everyone at the end of my interviews. This is called the three truths. So I'd like you to imagine a hypothetical question that you're as old as you want to be. You figured out the longevity code. You're 300 years old, you're 120, however old you want to be. But eventually you got to turn the lights off and go to the next place. After you leave this earth, you got to go at some point and you've gotten to achieve every dream that you have. Rhonda, you have changed the world. You've cured cancer. Whatever it is the dreams are, you've done it. You've grown up, you've seen your family grow up and have an amazing life. And for whatever reason, all of your work materials, your research, your findings, your podcasts, videos, they all have to go with you to the next place. So no one has access to any more over your content, any of your research it's all gone for whatever reason. Hypothetical question. And you could share three things you know to be true with the world before you go. And these would be the only three things that people to have remember you by. And three lessons you would share with the world. Three important things they should do. What would you say are your three truths?

Oh, wow. I would say I would definitely there is a low hanging fruit to be happy. And that low hanging fruit is accomplished through making sure your body has the right micronutrients. Exercise. I think that there's a low hanging fruit. The low hanging fruit is the main thing I would probably the common theme, the low hanging fruit to living longer also is basically through trying to find and get the right micronutrients from your food. And when you do that, you end up eating healthier because there's no micronutrients in refined foods. That's going to help your body, I think, help your body be healthier as well. And then I think lastly I would say to just enjoy the things that you love doing. I mean being happy is, it's so important to take time, enjoy those things. For sure.

I love it. Back to the basics. I love it. Before I ask the final question, I want to acknowledge you, Rhonda, for just being an incredible source of helpful wisdom and knowledge in a time and in a place where there's so much noise. You bring peace, clarity, found research, and you do it with such grace and wisdom and joy and happiness. So I'm just acknowledging for constantly showing up every day, being a mom, being a wife, taking care of yourself, being a human guinea pig so that we can all learn how to become happier, healthier as well. And I just really appreciate all the work you do for all of us. It is really helpful. So I thank you for that. My final question for you is what is your definition of greatness?

My definition of greatness? I think my definition of greatness is honesty. I think that that is the most important honesty. Just pure honesty, period.

Period. I Love it.

Yeah.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick, thank you so much for taking the time. I appreciate it. Very grateful.

Thank you. Thank you for all the flattering words too, Louis. It was, it was really fun chatting with you.

My friend. I hope you enjoy, enjoyed this episode. If you did enjoy it, make sure to share this with a friend because sharing is what greatness is all about. And you can get all of Rhonda's tips for a healthier life by searching. Found my fitness, all one word. And she's got an amazing podcast on Apple podcasts and Spotify and video content on YouTube as well. And of course she's found my fitness across all social platforms. Again, thank you so much for taking the time to listen today. I hope you got some insights on how you can improve your health and if you did, just share this over on your social media, post it on Instagram or Twitter or Facebook or text it with a friend over WhatsApp or text and get this message out there. The link to send people is lewishouse.com 967 or just copy and paste the link on Apple Podcast or Spotify or wherever you're listening to this right now and share it with your friends. Of course mental health is just as important as physical health. So if you haven't yet listened to my interview last week with the spiritual visionary Sadhguru, go listen to it right now. I'm telling you it will change your life. And let's stay connected over text message. That's right, you can send me a text. I'm posting inspirational text messages to you every single week. All you need to do is text the word podcast to 614-350-3960 and I'll be able to send you messages over there. I'm also posting regular content over on TikTok, stuff you don't see anywhere else on social media. Go check me out. I'm Lewis. If you're diving into the TikTok world as well right now, and I love this quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson who said the first wealth is health. I want to remind you that no matter what problems you have in the world, none of those problems problems matter if you are under attack in your health, if you feel sick, if you can't move, if you've got some type of pain in your body on your mind, that thing always becomes the main thing. So focus on health every single day. Do something to help improve your physical and mental and emotional health and that way you'll have more energy to take on the challenges and take on your dreams of life every single day. I want to remind you how much you matter, how much much I appreciate you, how much you are loved in the world. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.

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