A MASTERCLASS On Narcissists: How To Spot, Handle & Avoid Them EP 1281
17 Jun 2022 · 49 min
Vanessa Van Edwards and Dr. Ramani Durvasula break down how narcissists operate: the nonverbal cues that give them away, their manipulation tactics, and how to handle them at work and in relationships.
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Think about seeing a toxic person. And I know that people probably have toxic people in their lives. And this is why toxic people are so challenging because toxic people put us out of integrity. Toxic people force us to use- Welcome.
To the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome to this special masterclass. We've brought some of the top experts in the world to help you unlock the power of your life through this specific theme today. It's gonna be powerful, so let's go ahead and dive in.
This is my biggest fear with this book. This is my single biggest fear. And it was an issue for me when I first started writing it. Is I'll be honest, you can use this book for manipulation.
Yeah, of course. And that scares me. And when a smart person who's narcissistic is gonna study everything and then start using it. It scares me.
So how can you tell the difference?
The subtle cues. These are very subtle now. Very subtle, yeah.
So we're talking about big to subtle, right? There's like a range of them. So first is, It is my biggest fear with this book that people do not have the right intentions. And my hope is that we can actually use these powers for good and not evil. That is the number one thing is you can, if you want to. Here's the good news. There are certain cues that we cannot control. And if you have bad intentions, they will leak. So I call these danger zone cues. So in the book I talk about there's four different types of cues. There's highly warm, non-verbal, verbal, and vocal. So these are things that make you highly warm, highly trustworthy, highly likable. There's highly competent cues, verbal, non-verbal, and vocal. And then there's charismatic, the ones that are just knocking out of the park, like they're just great. And the last one is danger zone cues. Danger zone cues are the cues that get us into trouble. They're the cues that liars use. They're the way that we leak guilt and shame. Actually, shame is not a bad thing. It's only when you have guilt that you've done something wrong. So in the danger zone, it is.
Very hard to inhibit those cues.
So I teach them because I want people to be able to spot them.
Okay. What are those cues? Okay. So there's a bunch, and I'll let's talk as many as we can. So, this might be someone who's very successful, someone who's accomplished a lot potentially, someone that seems very credible, someone that could be in a power position, owning a business or having influence online or something like that, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Extremely successful, they could be successful, they could seem credible, trustworthy, but might be super narcissistic underneath.
Yes, so there's a couple of danger zone cues that we can control, which a manipulative person could inhibit, right? So, for example, one that I found that I talk about in the book is Lance Armstrong. Armstrong. So, Lance Armstrong, for those who don't know, spoiler alert, Lance Armstrong was doping. So someone was like, there was spoilers in the book. And I was like, you haven't heard of that yet? I also talk about Britney Spears in the book, because there's some really interesting cues on her, which I think why we're worried about her, why her fans worry. She shows a lot of danger zone cues. So, Lance Armstrong, in one of his early interviews on Larry King Live, he's asked about doping, and he does what's called a lip purse. So lip purses, okay, when we push our lips into a flat line, we mash our lips together. That is a universal withholding gesture. So when we're literally trying to hold something in or hold something back or we don't like what's being said or heard, we go. And so you'll notice that when someone has been asked something they don't like, when someone had to lie, a lot of the time, so we did a massive experiment in our lab where we asked people to send in videos of themselves lying. Actually, you play it in the book. It's called Lie to Me. So I have you lie to me. Play this Lie to Me game. Diagnose your own tells. It's very important to know your own tells because you should know what your danger zone cues are when you're leaking them. And one of the-- you- should know those. It's good to know those in the back of your mind. Do that with your partner, right? You want them to know what those are too. So one thing that we noticed is on lies, that was one of the biggest indicators. So in Lie to Me game, we ask you to do two things. We ask you to tell us An embarrassing story, your most embarrassing story, and then a fake embarrassing story. And we wanna see if we can tell the difference. If we cut the clips, can we know which one is the fake one? Man, that'd be interesting. Yes, and it's amazing. You see the same danger zone cues over and over again, right before someone's about to lie and tell their fake, embarrassing story. They go, okay, and they lip purse right before they're gonna do it. And that's because we don't like lying. Our body knows it's gonna get us into trouble. So we're like, stop it, stop it, stop it. And we hold ourselves back. You ask a woman, how much do you weigh? She'll go, mmm. Like literally close those lips, 'cause no woman wants to talk about how much she weighs. So it's a withholding gesture. And so that's the first thing is you wanna look for some of the bigger cues, withholding gestures. Lip purse is one, a sudden distancing behavior. So we also notice that liars in our lab, they wanted to like get away from the lie, like as if it smelled. So like when they were telling their most embarrassing story, they'd be like leaning in, using gestures. Oh, it was so embarrassing. Remember, embarrassing stories are negative. It's not like it's a positive memory. It's like people are like, and they.
Do a shame touch.
Personal shame touch is when people touch their fingers to the side of their forehead.
This happened to me.
Oh, gosh, I'm so embarrassed.
So they usually tell the truth and.
They do like this. Yes, because they're actually embarrassed. So these are all good, like congruent, right? We're seeing embarrassment and shame gesture. We're seeing negative, nonverbal, and people shaking their head. I can't believe that happens, right? Like they, oh, they're so upset that happened. We're seeing cringes, we're seeing fear, we're seeing sadness, congruent.
Right?
Like that's all congruent emotion. On the bad stories, we often see people will lip purse and they try to get away from it. So they'll say a statement and then, you know, and then, and they're literally like as far away, I hope I'm not messing up my audio, they're as far away from the lie as they can possibly get. They're leaning back, they'll sometimes literally lean their head back in the chair, and that's because physically we wanna distance ourselves from things we don't like. So we're looking for lip purses, sudden distancing. And there's a lot of cues that we can't control. So blink rate is another one. Eye blocking behavior is liars have higher blink rates. They blink more. Yeah, actually in Britney Spears, she had a really interesting interview that I actually break this down on my YouTube channel, so you don't even have to read the book if you want to see it. Where I break down the cues in this early interview. This is right before the conservatorship started. So very, very full of cues because it's right before it happened. And she gets asked, Very difficult question. And she, all of a sudden, her blink rate goes from a normal rate to a high rate. So she starts to really quickly blink her eyes like this. And that is because when we're really nervous, we literally want to close out stimuli to not see what's happening so we can process what's happening. So blink rate is something that a lot of manipulative people cannot control. In fact, when I share this, people go, oh, I know a very narcissistic, manipulative person who has a very high blink rate.
Interesting.
Because they're literally trying to block out the lie or the manipulation. and so they'll sound really good, but they're really processing a lot. And you're like, why are they blinking so much? And it's because they're trying to process.
Oh my goodness.
So just knowing those cues are not all bad on their own, but it's important to know what those cues look like so you can spot them. And I do think, I really think, manipulative people will get caught eventually. It is very hard to fake competence. It is very hard to fake warmth. It's hard to keep that up. And so for the long game, yes, you can learn a couple of these cues and try to master your way around them. But for the long game, it's really hard. I mean, look at Theranos, right? So Elizabeth Holmes, so spoiler alert, Theranos did not go well. I feel like I always have to say that. So one of her interesting cues is, I don't know if you've ever seen her talk, she uses a really deep voice, like, fakely deep, like down here. And people used to say, is that real? It's because she read in some Q book, it wasn't mine because my book wasn't out then, thank goodness, she read in some book that having a lower tone of voice makes you more competent. And that is true. Research has found that people who use the lower end of their natural voice tone are seen as competent. That's for both men and women. So you have a very deep voice and it serves you really well. When I'm talking right now, I'm trying to use the lowest end of my natural register. When I'm talking to my toddler.
Right, right.
When I'm talking to my toddler, I'm much more up here. You know, hey baby, how are you? But if I were to do my entire interview like this, it would drive you crazy. You wouldn't feel competent. No, and it wouldn't, people would go, I can't, I'm not taking her or taking her seriously. So she read that study, obviously. And went an octave lower. There you go. And went an octave lower. So it wasn't her natural voice tone, it was like one step lower than her voice tone. She was always talking like this. And when she did an interview, she would talk like this, and you would hear that this just doesn't sound natural. And part of your spidey sense would be like, why is she talking so low? It sounds really unnatural. And it came out that when she was drunk, her employees noticed that she went back into her natural register.
Wow.
So there are cues that they will eventually bring.
Don't drink alcohol.
And that is the point of this story. Don't drink alcohol, you'll get caught. So you can't keep it up for that long. It is that she was faking that cue, we think.
I think you're also just, your body is out of integrity. Like the more you're, you're keeping back something, you're telling a slight lie or whatever. I mean, I felt this from the past because I've been out of integrity in my life at different times, from different stages of childhood to adulthood, right? For little white lies to bigger stuff hiding from my parents or whatever it is. I know they feel bad. So you're like, oh, like something inside of you feels off, right? And then you gotta, like, keep the lie up and you're like, eventually you're.
Gonna explode or you're gonna have a.
Heart attack or something.
It's gonna leak. It's gonna leak. Like, leak. You leak those cues and, like, those are the cues that we're looking for. Like, I want you to be on the lookout for them because When something feels bad, even like something feels bad, even just then when you were saying it felt bad, your voice tone changed.
Right.
Just then.
Yeah.
Because when you think about, oh, think about seeing a toxic person. I know that people probably have toxic people in their lives, and this is why toxic people are so challenging, because toxic people put us out of integrity. Toxic people force us to use warm cues where we don't feel like it. Now we can do it.
What do you mean? We gotta be nice to them or something?
Yeah, so if you have a toxic person, and this is the thorn. And, and I think our work is I want everyone to be their best selves. I want them to show up as their warmest, most competent self. But what if you have a toxic person? How do you do that authentically? And this is what's so hard about toxic people. You have a colleague or co-worker or a family member.
Yeah.
That you don't like.
Right.
And you have to break out the fake warmth cues.
Oh, hi.
How are you?
Oh, right.
And so what do we do? We fake smile. Right. So, oh, it's so good to see you.
Right.
I look good.
I look good.
Right.
Or we say, oh, yeah. So how Oh, that sounds good. Congratulations.
Right?
Now your LA roots are coming back to you.
Right.
That's why Toxic People challenge us, is because they come into our lives. We know we're supposed to be warm. And so we try to force that warm sound and it comes out sort of forced and then it makes us feel bad and then we're trying to overcompensate for it. And so you know what the antidote here is? Not learning more fake warmth cues. It's time to get rid of toxic people. I think that's like the side effect of the book is like- Don't keep them around. Don't keep those people around because it will leak. And so set boundaries around that. So what do you mean it will leak?
Like your integrity will leak because you're constantly trying to be nice but they're actually out of integrity because you don't want to be.
Is that right? Right.
That's exactly right. So your body is like, I'm doing something that's not authentic to me because I feel like I have to with this person. That's right.
And the more frequently you do that, you feel out of integrity with yourself. Yep, exactly.
With yourself.
That was a question you asked. That was a question. Yes, it was. Yes, yes. That was perfect, 'cause you were asking a question I knew. Yes, is if you allow toxic people to come into your life, especially without boundaries, we have to have some of those people we deal with. But if you don't have boundaries around them, they come into your life and you have to fake niceness, and that feels really bad.
What happens if, let's just say there's a person you don't like.
Yeah.
Maybe they're not toxic. There's someone you don't like, and you don't like being nice to 'cause you feel like, Why am I spending? I just don't. Nothing wrong with them.
There's not my person.
Yeah, totally. Let's say you're in a work environment.
Yeah.
And you're at a company, you got 5,800 employees that you're working with, you're on a team with, and you're just, okay, I'm here.
Yeah.
Is it better to be inauthentic and lie and act nice around this person? Friendly, fake, how are you interested? Even though you've like been around them for six months or a year and you realize you really don't like them.
Mm-.
Or is it better to go right up to the person after six months and say, you know what? I just wanna be completely honest and not fake with you, 'cause I feel like I've been fake. Mm-. That I don't connect with you, I don't like you. I think you're out of integrity, I think you're inauthentic. And maybe I'm being judgmental, but I'd.
Rather be honest with you and fake nice to you. Okay, that's A and B. Can I give a C? Sure. Okay, so I don't believe in fake it till you make it. So I try not to give fake it. I don't roll that way. I just think it's exhausting. I think it's going to leak. The C option here is to not fake warmth, but is to double down on competence. So if you are working with someone that you don't like, the one thing that you do have to do is get stuff done with them, right? You have to master your tasks. You have to be on it. You have to be responsive to emails. So that is something that you can be authentic about because to do your job, you have to be able to get along with them in a very professional setting. So I would skip all the fake warmth stuff. Go right into competence. Yeah, right, like stick with where you're authentic, which is like, I don't need to hear about your weekend. I don't need to go to happy hour with you. I don't need a fake sitting with you for coffee, but you know what?
We align on goals. We create boundaries around the, hey, let's go have coffee.
Oh, you know I'm busy. I'm so busy today, but you know what?
Let's do a brainstorm session tomorrow at the end of the day so we can really kick off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So get back to the mission on the task on hand, the competence. And maybe you've just got to be like, okay, this is someone where 20 seconds a day, I've got to be around someone that's trying to be fake, la-di-da with everyone, and I'll just wait and see. I'm going to get stuff done.
And then I'll move on to the next one. That's it. Exactly. Because at least you're focusing on where you can be authentic. And also, even if that were to come up, you could honestly say that kind of conversation could be, listen, I'm not really into connecting at work. I'm more about getting it done. I want to get home to my kids and my family. I hope that's okay with you. You know, when we're together, if it's all right, I might skip lunch and just have us, like, you know, work it out and be really efficient. I really appreciate how efficient you are because it allows me to get home to my kids faster.
Mm.
Right, like that's authentic. So what can you appreciate about them that's competent?
Yes. What can you highlight about them that's competent? What if you don't feel like they're warm or competent? You're like, this person on a team is just, they can't get anything done.
They're not smart and they have fake attitude around me all day. I mean, this depends on how you feel, but I would say deal with it. Like, go to your boss.
Right, and say, Hey, I just- Look.
Can you put me on a different team? You say, I don't know how I can work with this person. I don't want to be unauthentic, but I'm telling you that we're not getting stuff done and they are causing issues on the team. I don't like to ignore that stuff. You could hope it gets better, but ask for help. If you have someone on your team or someone in your life who is not warm nor competent and doesn't treat you with warmth or competence, either get them out of your life, Set a boundary or get help.
Give them my number.
Don't live with it. Yeah, don't live with it. Life is too short to feel fakely competent or fake warmth.
Right.
What's been the, I think I asked you this last time, what's been the charisma strategy?
Yeah.
Do you want to call it a strategy?
You weren't sure about that. You weren't sure.
I don't know what the word is right, but what is the charisma or social cue that you've learned in the last six months? that has brought some new attention to your life where you said, ah, I wasn't aware of that fully, but now the research is showing that when someone does this, it improves this.
There's a new cue that I snuck into the book in the very last draft because I just learned it. And this is actually brought to me by one of my male readers. And I'm so curious. Okay, do you agree with this, Lewis? Okay, here's what they said. So in the book, I had a whole section on nodding. So nodding, affirmative nods, upside down, right?
Are yes.
I nod all the time. Yeah, yes, you're an nodder. It's really high warmth. We love it. We love it. Yes, nodding is great. Because vertical nods, and by the way, this is different in certain cultures where they'll nod, they nod sideways. Sideways, sideways. That's different. Okay, so just vertical nodding in Western cultures is agreement. It's yes. In fact, research has found that when.
You nod at me slowly, I speak three to four times longer. That's cool. That's why you're a good interviewer is.
Because you'll not be like, keep going, keep going, keep going. I'm just like a bobblehead.
I'm just kind of like, yeah, come.
Very slowly, I'll pause and be like, okay, cool. Okay, well actually you're right. Slow nodding is tell me more.
Fast nodding is finish up.
Yeah, okay, okay, okay. Okay, I got it. I got it, right, right, right. Okay, so that's the difference there. If you want someone to wrap up in a meeting, give them a one, two, three, triple nod, like I got it. If you want them to keep going, an introvert? Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yes. Okay, so that's the difference, that's number one. So I shared about this, I taught it, and then a couple of my mail readers said to me, no. Vanessa, we think that there is a secret non-verbal cue between guys. No, I don't know what this cue is. Here's what they said. If you know a guy and you're trying to acknowledge him, guy to guy, you nod up. Good to see you. It's literally like an open gesture. You're open. If you don't know a guy but you're trying to acknowledge his presence, you.
Hey, good to see you. Oh, wow, that's so true.
Is it true?
That's so true.
Yeah, exactly.
Oh, good to see you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good to see you.
Yeah.
Hey, what's up buddy? Okay.
Yeah, it's so true. Okay, so this was, so I snuck.
It into the book. Oh wow, that's fascinating.
I wonder, is that like biology? Is that- Yes, here's my theory on this. As soon as I heard this, I was like, and I started looking. I started watching men. I asked my husband, I asked my guy friends. And this is why I think it happens. When we know someone, we expose our jugular. So this is a very vulnerable part of our body. And we're saying, I know you, I trust you. I'm opening, I'm acknowledging you and I feel trustworthy. When you don't know someone but you wanna show respect, you nod down to protect your jugular.
I don't know you, but I see you. I got you.
I got you. I'm here for you, kind of. You can't see my jugular, but I'm here for you.
I'm gonna protect myself.
But I'm here for you, bro. Exactly. I think that's where it comes from.
Is it's like a, do I know.
You or do I not know you? Let's view narcissism as almost like this inner core, okay? In the inner core of narcissism, narcissism is this variable empathy, usually a lack of empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, validation seeking, a sense of envy for other people, or the assumption that other people envy them. The inability to regulate their anger when they're frustrated, disappointed, or stressed. A sense of shame. So if anyone points out a flaw in them, they tend to react with rage. A reactive sensitivity to criticism. So if anyone points out anything, they come at them, blame shifting and responsibility shifting. So they blame other people for what is actually their responsibility. They're very controlling, very egocentric. Everything is about them. Everything is self-serving.
Insecure.
Deeply insecure. Lots of feelings of inadequacy, but those are all sort of pushed down. all of these things I'm talking about, the entitlement and all the rest of it, it's like a suit of armor that protects that inner core of inadequacy so nobody ever sees it. If I'm walking around telling you I'm all that, well then I can't be inadequate, right? And if I got a big fancy car and a big fancy house and a big fancy person on my arm, then I'm all that, right? So with narcissism we have to talk about sort of the top of the line behaviors and those are presentations. charm, charisma, confidence, curiosity. And they also-- Can you have those.
Things and not be narcissistic? You can't. Because I'm a very curious person. I care, you know, I'm like-- so.
Here'S where it gets interesting, right? Is you can be curious. When you can find an empathic, charismatic person, behold them. They are the unicorns of the human beings. Someone who is confident and charismatic. When I meet the confident charismatic, Empathic, kind, respectful, humble person. It's a unicorn. I literally, I'm like, okay, everyone. And I can tell you it doesn't happen often. And I'm usually like, I look googly eyes, 'cause I'm thinking, and then of course I'm poking at it. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm gonna find out what's wrong with it. Every so often I find it. And I'm like, it hasn't happened often. It hasn't happened often. But here's the thing. The charm, the charisma, the confidence, the curiosity, There's also comfort that they also offer. It's like they'll often feel like they're rescuers and I can take care of it all. They'll be very generous.
Up front.
It's all a front game, right? So what happens then? The curtain comes down across all your common sense and you miss the little things. You're like, this is amazing.
Yeah.
And people, either you miss the lack of empathy and the anger and the rage and all the other stuff. or you justify it.
You justify, well, yeah.
Yeah, you know, well, he's got a big job or she's really stressed or she doesn't mean that or that's just their culture. I was reading an article by a linguist recently and the linguist was talking about how people talk over each other in certain cultures, right? And they were using that as a way to rationalize interrupting. And there's interrupting and there's interrupting. Narcissistic interrupting is not only, it's contemptuous interrupting.
What does that mean?
It's dismissive in a way. It's dismissive like, okay, all right, you know, you're talking and then I not.
Only cut in, but it's basically like, your point of view doesn't matter or yeah, you're an idiot. I know what's really, yeah. Okay, so you share some of these signs of malignant narcissism.
No, that's okay, so let's go back to the core. We got the core of lack of empathy, all that stuff I talked about. Titleman, yes. Now the problem with narcissism is there's subtypes.
Oh my gosh.
All narcissists are created. We really do need a whiteboard nail. Like I'd be writing notes up there because what we have then is the classical narcissist, the sort of 57 Chevy of narcissism is the grandiose narcissist. It is the big charming, confident, I'm the one, I'm the best, no insight, very little empathy, kind of, but very like big sales person, that's the grandiose narcissist. But then when we talk about the malignant narcissist, again, we have all that stuff, lack of empathy and all that other stuff, but they are more menacing, they are more controlling, they're a little bit more scary, they're sadistic, they're paranoid.
What if they have both of those things?
Usually they can, they can, and that's a horrific combination. because then that person's real charming on the front end and then once you cross the threshold and walk all the way in with them, now you're dealing with their malignant, manipulative, scary, and when we see controlling, when we see manipulative narcissist, manipulative, I'm sorry, malignant narcissism, we're seeing people who are often, they're more likely to be aggressive, to be violent, to be abusive, to isolate people from ever being able to get help, from being abusive in the workplace. big awful workplace abuse stories, especially a lot in the MeToo era, a lot of those folks are malignant narcissists.
Right.
So what happens if you're with a narcissist? Maybe it's been a year, you've been dating someone or your boss didn't seem like it at the beginning, but then you're figuring out, oh, check, check, check. They've got a lot of these things, but the first six months seemed great or it seemed like it was amazing, but now we're seeing the curtain, pull back and some of these things are coming out and we're not feeling good about the relationship we're in. Whether it's a working relationship, a friendship, an intimate relationship, we've spotted it. What I'm hearing you say is there's really no way to change a narcissist. So trying to change them is not gonna happen. That's a fool's errand. So does that mean we just pretty much have to rip the cord and rip the band-aid and get out?
Or how does it... How do we navigate that? It's not that simple. We can't walk away from all relationships. People can't just quit their jobs. Let's say a person starts figuring this out five years in a relationship and they're married and they have children. What if it's their family of origin? And they're like, I've done my homework and this is actually my parent or my sibling. People say, well, I don't know that I'm willing to cut off from my entire family. So I'm not going to sit here and tell people that, oh, you just got to always go. In fact, my first book on the topic of narcissism is called Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist. and I wrote it from that point of view because it's too simplistic to say, well, get up and go, like you said, rip off the Band-Aid. So if you're, and neither path is easy, but in an ideal world, I will be frank with you, and there's actually an interesting group in Israel that's gathering, has gathered some data on this, on narcissistic abuse, and they've found that the thing that works best in dealing with a narcissistic relationship that resulted in the best outcomes was going no contact, like having no contact with them.
Completely blocking, cutting you off.
And because it's almost like a toxin, right? If there's a toxic gas, the best way to feel better is to eliminate it.
Eliminate it. Have no more toxins. If you have a little bit, you're just gonna be feeling a little bit of pain consistently.
It's gonna be holding onto it. Correct. But a lot of people don't have that. So the biggest, if you're gonna have to stay in this relationship, you have.
To engage in something that I and.
Others have called radical acceptance. This is never gonna change. This is who they are. This is who they are. This is it. So, and I then I tell people, I have something called the deep technique that I talk about. The deep technique is when I tell people, if you're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So deep, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. And so, when they're coming at you, and if you can remember, you really are keeping it tight. It's a lot of, it's like you're in a deposition.
Yes? No?
Okay. Sounds good. Sure. Now, narcissists don't like that. Because they're going to keep coming and digging and digging. They're going to bait you. They're going to bait you. And they, when I tell you, when they bait you, they don't play. They go for everything.
They go for everything that's going to make something else.
They start making stuff up. They start making stuff up. They go after your friends. They draw your friends in it.
Threatening to shame you publicly, whatever it is, right?
And so then at some people, people take that bait and then the narcissist is like game on, you know, and they're all, I got you. Because when you're fighting, they're fighters. That's what they do. In fact, there was a great research study came out from Ohio State University, Ohio boy. And phenomenal study that came out this year and over 450 studies they examined and found really strong effects that narcissism is consistently associated with aggression. It's a very, it's this is not, there's nothing soft about this. This is about aggression. They want the fight. They are always a better fighter.
Oh my gosh.
And they want the fight, so they bait you. You've got to be made a steal. Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain.
Crazy.
To not get into the fight. Every relationship with a narcissist is a threesome. You just don't know it because they always need that third person in the relationship, whether it's someone gave me the number or Someone's noticing me.
This person DM me or this person.
Is exactly kidding on me. They're always trying to and they're always trying to create that sense of intrigue or the idea that somebody is more into them or they're, or again, it's often them creating the jealousy or they'd be incredibly jealous of their partners. There's a difference between jealousy and pathological jealousy. There's two different things. So jealousy is normal. We are a actually we're a pair-bonded species, we human beings. We are, we liked, we pretty much are about generally normatively have sex with one person. People are like, no, that person, Chihayame said, yeah, they were only having sex with them. They weren't having sex with you. They were still sexually monogamous. With one partner.
They weren't banging you.
They were banging someone else. You were on paper in a relationship with them. You went to the same home, but their sex was with someone else. Okay? But we tend to be pair-bonded. We tend to be monogamous. all right? So jealousy is a threat to that, think of it Darwinianly, right? If I'm in a relationship and a threat comes in, right? Normal jealousy is that sort of evolutionary jealousy, right? I'm with a person, if somebody comes in as a threat to that relationship, I've lost the resources and support for our offspring, right? That's all the Darwinian stuff, reproduction.
Pathological jealousy.
Pathological jealousy though, that starts getting into the realm of things like paranoia and oh my gosh. and negative mood states and all that. Jealousy doesn't feel good, but I always, when I've worked with couples, they're like, I'm jealous. I'm like, that's good. That means you still got a skin in the game. Because when people, I've been with people, worked with couples and or worked with individuals, and they'll say, I'm not even jealous when people notice my husband. I kind of feel sad because I'm.
Like, yeah, this thing's kind of. Oh, gosh. Kind of done. I feel like, yeah, I don't feel jealous. I feel like I trust the person I'm with.
Yeah, but that's what we're talking about, pathological jealousy, right? So I think of my partner, ironically on my drive here, he was talking about something and about this woman who I knew we were gonna have to see who had hit on him. And this dude is so loyal, it levels it to a whole new level. And I remember thinking in the driver, I'm like, I got that little funny thing in my tummy. I'm like, huh? He doesn't even live in this country. And so I'm thinking, That's and I was like that's good. That's good that I'm still feeling yeah, I still got a dog in the fight.
But it doesn't mean you're like I but I'm letting it stress you out.
And like talking to them about it.
I don't know the guys were talking about yeah, of course yeah, and so.
The path what did you say with the paranoid the pathological jealousy pathological jealousy. That's a narcissistic. That's more of an it's more paranoid. It's more antagonistic. It's more about you must be doing something.
You're doing so it's accusatory. It's almost delusional. Oh my gosh, okay. What would you say again are the main causes, what are the main things that happen to cause someone to become a narcissist? Is it all trauma based?
It's no, it's partly trauma. It's also that temperament, it is chaos in the early environment. It's lack of secure attachment, it's overvaluation of the child. Basically the child can do no wrong and they're so wonderful. I mean it's interesting. We're about to see something fascinating happen and I don't know how it's going to go down. We're about to see, because what? Facebook's coming up on 20 years soon, right? We're about to see the first generation of kids who are born into the Facebook world, where every moment being documented and shared and since they've been born. Since they were born. This is the first time we're going to be seeing this. So I bless the people out there who are going to start collecting this data because we now have, you know, you're going to see what happens if you were, because I had kids way before this, so I did not The only people who saw their pictures were the people actually- Friends and family. Put them in an envelope, mailed the picture kind of thing.
Or came over to the house and.
Looked at the actual baby. But this is a whole new game for kids who basically were accessories to their parents' lives. Like, look at my child this, look at my child this, look at my child this. Every day there's a new picture.
So do you think it's okay to share some of your family life on social media and some of your children's, you know, Special moments or do you think we should be protecting our kids at all costs and never show their face, never show anything until they're whatever, 10 years old?
It's a super interesting area. There's some actually really interesting thinking and writing about this, which is these children aren't consenting to this. Are these children consenting to you showing them have a meltdown? Or, you know, we see all these silly child videos and sometimes I kind of feel a little sadness because these things stay evergreen. They didn't agree to that. And as much as we say, oh no, it's so cute, Is this still, they didn't consent, it's a vulnerability, right? So there's some, I know some folks in the developmental sphere of psychology saying.
Oh, this may not be entirely cool. Yeah, what happens when you're not agreeing? When happens when the kid's 23 and they start going back and seeing all these like things that their mom or dad posted and they're like, Huh, that's not really cool.
I wish you wouldn't have done that to me. But it goes beyond that because even when the child is young, there's this.
Sense of things are constantly being done to them.
Without them agreeing to it.
Posing and put these clothes on and.
Do this and let's post you in a public way. And then the child also gets this sense of their utility, their importance to their parents is their social media persona. You look so pretty in your dress. You look so cute in your costume. Like you're wondering, are you costuming your child for Halloween for you or for them?
What would you say is the main traits of a narcissist?
Grandiosity, really wanting to be the center of attention, this veneer of confidence, being very easily wounded. Oh, wait a minute, you complimented this other person's whatever it is, they get so wounded, like, well, why didn't you compliment mine?
Right?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, you think that person's attractive? They'll like ice you out.
Wow.
So super jealous too or no?
Very, very. But they act like they don't care. Oh, you want to do, go ahead.
I don't know. Like passive aggressive jealous or something, right? Very passive aggressive. Yeah. Huh. Any other signs that people should look out for if they're like starting to.
Date someone, they're like, huh, this seems very narcissistic. I think that Jekyll and Hyde quality, that, you know, one minute you're like this and the next minute you're incredibly cruel. You can be incredibly warm and loving and incredibly And the two, you toggle between the two in a way that is frightening.
It's like a split personality, huh?
Yeah, yeah.
But it's not because the narcissist is doing the thing, you reel them in, the narcissist reels the person in with the charm. With the charm.
With seduction.
And then flips you are the center of the universe and then, oh, you're my man. You're many too close to me, so.
I'm gonna be cruel. So it's interesting, so it's like if you're with someone who's showing these traits and they're just wowing you and they're so nice and loving and grandiose. But then if you truly open up and you want to get to know their heart, that's when they start to do other things or what happens then? Yeah, yeah. You get too close. You get too intimate.
You get too intimate.
Right.
Either you're being too intimate with them. Although they want you to be somewhat intimate with them so they know how to use it against you.
Right.
Tell me your deepest darkest secrets that I can use it against you later.
I don't want to use it against you in the moment when you are most vulnerable. Wow. Or they don't want you to know too much about them, right?
They hide certain things.
Well, they hide their vulnerabilities. They don't know how to get authentically close to another person.
Why does someone become a narcissist?
Oh, that's... You know, I think so many people, anybody who's had experience with someone like that wants to know that. And you'll see that, you know, this is when we talk about we marry our unfinished business, right? So it's the person who grew up feeling very... They didn't get their needs met. They didn't get... They were either neglected or they grew up with a narcissistic parent. So what do we do with parents who don't meet our needs? On the one hand, we rebel against them. We say, I'm not going to be like that. I'm not going to choose someone like that. So the narcissist doesn't choose another narcissist. if the narcissist grew up with a narcissistic parent, they don't choose another narcissist. They choose someone like the other parent who was with the narcissistic parent. And then what they do is they take on the traits of the narcissistic parent. Now why do they do that even though they were so injured by that kind of parent? It's like the person who grew up with an alcoholic parent or a person who like couldn't self-regulate. Why did they become the angry yeller even though their parent was the angry yeller? And they said, I would never do that. How do you get close to a parent who couldn't get close to you? You become like them. That's your connection to them. This is completely outside of your awareness. You don't realize that. But we still, the wish never dies that we can be close to our parents. The wish never dies. So what do we do if we don't process this?
So if we process it, then we.
Process it, then we know, okay, I have to watch out for that. I have to find another way to grieve what I didn't get growing up. I have to really go through that grief process. And I'm going to have that loss is going to live with me, but it's going to live with me in a way that isn't so sharp. So you really have to grieve it. But if you don't grieve it, you repeat it.
You take on the trait of one of your parents or something.
You take on their traits because that helps you feel close to them. Oh, I'm going to feel close to you in this way. This is not in your conscious awareness.
Wow.
And then people don't realize it. They think, oh my gosh, one day someone says to them, you are exactly like your mom, your dad. And then they go, oh my God, I am. Right? If they're not, if they can get past sort of like the narcissistic protection.
Yeah, of course.
Which would be one.
I can hear it.
I'm not like my parents. No, I'm not like them at all. I'm not like them at all. Like if you could take a videotape of a scene from your childhood and you take a videotape of how you're acting now with your own your own child, you would be stunned.
Wow. So how does someone, if they're, okay, they've realized they're, maybe there's narcissistic traits or that's a full-on narcissist that they're in a relationship with. What are the next steps they should take? Is there a way to actually, I mean, you can't really change someone in a relationship when I'm hearing you say, you can't, no matter what you do, the person's not gonna change.
Right.
So, do you need to change in order for them to change or is it just if you're with someone who's diagnosed narcissist, there's no hope for actually healthy growth in the relationship?
Well, someone who has narcissistic traits generally doesn't come to therapy because they don't think they have a problem.
Right.
They're like, no, I'm good.
Right. So how they come in is they're having some relational difficulty.
Right.
And the relational difficulty is either they're coming in for couples therapy because the other person drag them there. Yeah. You know, so often we say that, you know, the reason that people come to therapy is to deal with the people who won't go to therapy.
Right.
So, you know, you're coming to therapy to deal with the person in your life who won't come to therapy.
It's funny that, yeah, the three previous relationships I was in, I was like, we need therapy. We need to, like, we're getting to the point where I was like, somebody's not working here. Let's go to therapy and, like, try to work this through. None of my partners wanted to go to therapy. They resisted, resisted, resisted. And I was like, We're not figuring it out on our own. Like, I'm trying, you're trying, it's not working. Let's go, let's have someone look at it. No, it's like so much resistance.
I was just like, Right.
And so in that case, I'm not.
Saying they were all narcissists, but there was definitely- no, no, no. So I'm not even talking about, well, let me differentiate. So there's, a narcissistic person, meaning diagnosed narcissistic, or even people with narcissistic traits, they tend not to come on their own to therapy unless They actually agree to come in couples, and they're coming because their partner is making them come.
Yes, that's the only reason.
Or, and then you kind of see like how flexible are they with their story, right? Because everybody's coming in with their story, both people.
Both people, yeah.
Right. The other reason, like in maybe you should talk to someone, John, right? When I talk about him, he's this guy who's in his 40s, he's married, he has some kids, and he is, It's incredibly insulting to me from the minute he walks in the door. Everybody else is the problem. In fact, the chapter is called Idiots because he says everybody else is an idiot, right? Why can't people, why aren't people as smart as he is? Why aren't people as competent as he is? Why can't people do things right? Why does he, and he's like the beleaguered victim.
You see that sometimes, right? He's so talented and smart.
I'm the victim, 'cause nobody understands. And the victim of all these other people are causing so much anxiety. anxiety in my life. Like why are they doing things the way that they should be done? Why are they complaining about all these things? Not realizing that he's the one doing the complaining.
Complaining about everything, yeah.
Right, right. You know, we call it complaining from the victim position, you know, or being the offend, being offended from the victim position.
Sure, sure.
Now everybody else is the problem. Or the reason that people are cruel to another person is they say, you know, like, I was the victim, so I can hurt you twice as much. So if you hurt me, I have a right to hurt you back. Right, right, right. I'm doing this to protect myself.
Right.
So when John came in, he was, you know, you very much say, a lot of people would say, I don't wanna treat somebody like that because I don't know how much progress they're going to make. Because if they can't self-reflect, well, you have to be able to see yourself. In the book, I talk about the difference between idiot compassion and wise compassion. so idiot compassion is what we do with our friends. So your friends say like, listen to what my partner did or my mom or my, you know, my kid or my sibling or whatever it is. And we say, yeah, that's terrible. You're right. How dare they? You know, you're right. They're wrong. It's just we just back them up blindly because we think we're being supportive. But if you actually listen to your friends over time, you might hear that there's a pattern that they are kind of complaining about similar types of things. It's kind of like if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to, maybe it's you. Don't say that. In any given compassion. So in therapy, what we offer is we offer wise compassion. And in wise compassion, we hold up a mirror to you to help you to see yourself in ways that maybe you haven't been willing or able to do. And compassion is the key word here because we're doing it compassionately. So someone who comes in and they're not able to self-reflect, they're not able to see their reflection in the mirror and say, Yes, oh, I have a role in this too. Yes, it's true the other person does this, but I have a role in this too. So when you are asking about change, when people come in for couples therapy, I always give them an assignment before they come in. And the assignment is this, because normally the first thing that will happen if I don't is they're gonna come in and they're gonna name all the ways that their partner needs to change, and then we get nowhere. So I say to them, I want you to come up with how you can make this relationship better. I want you to come up with what you're going to do, what are you going to be working on to make this relationship better, even if your partner never changes. And they each have this assignment. So from day one, they come in, and even though they might have a lot of reasons that things aren't working out that they think are their partner's issue, their goal in therapy is to work on the one thing or the two things or the three things that they think they can do to make the relationship better. And it changes the whole course of the couples therapy because it's not about changing the other person. The magic of this is that they say, well, what's the point of doing it if they're not going to change? Well, first of all, again, going from the me and the you to the us is things are going to go more smoothly because you're going to be doing something to improve the relationship. But the other part of it is and where the magic comes in is you can't change another person. but you can influence change in another person. So when you do something differently, you are helping the other person to change. No one changes because you say, I want you to change in this way. That doesn't really happen. They might do it, you know, they might pay lip service to it. It doesn't really last. But if you start changing, if you make it easier, you help them to change by making it easier for them to change. So let's say they really need space. Give some space. Let's say, you know, you try to control them less. Let's say that you don't engage in the same familiar argument over and over and over. You, maybe you do something kind for them. And then people say about that. They say, well, why should I do something kind? Why should I go first? If they would be nice to me, I'll be nice to them. It doesn't matter. You need to go first because someone needs to do something.
Someone needs to do something.
Someone needs to change the dynamic. It's like a dance. And so if you do something nice for them, you might notice that they, not because it's a tit for tat, not because they're doing it because you did, it's because they feel safer. They feel more loving toward you. They feel like, oh, that was really nice. I really liked that. Now I actually want to, on my own volition, want to do something nice for you.
Yeah, and what if someone says, I'm gonna improve all the three, five, ten areas that I know can improve and after six months, the other person's like, yeah, I deserve all these things, and I'm not going to give any more. Then what? If you keep coming back, have you seen that where people come back to everything? It's like, okay, I've done this, I did this, I did this, and they're still not happy. They're still upset, and they're still not.
Shifting in certain ways. Well, first of all, I think that what they engage in then is what I call the pain Olympics, which is like, whose pain is greater?
Yeah.
You know, like, I'm working so hard, I'm working 12-hour days, well, I'm taking care of the kids or I'm doing this or, you know, like I'm doing all of this kind of labor in the relationship and you're doing all of the... It's there's no winning the pain Olympics. Like let's just say that you're both at a 10, okay? You both win. You both are in pain.
You both lose.
You both lose if you keep trying to compare it. The point is you're both struggling. And what's really interesting about couples is that couples tend to tell the other person exactly how they're struggling in a relationship. Instead, they act it out. They act out their fears or their disappointment or their hurt in other ways, but they don't directly say, this is how I'm struggling. And so if you're in couples therapy, you're going to start talking about those things. And if you're, you know, if you're not, then, then you're not really doing couples therapy. So, you know, I mean, I think that your therapist will tell you very early on, like this is the work that we're doing and this is, I think some people think that couples therapy is you come in, you download the argument of the week or the struggle of the week, you leave, you come back the next week and you download the new thing. No, that's like talking to a friend. There's no point to that.
What should the point of therapy be?
The point is that you want to be doing, most of the therapy of couples therapy takes place outside of the therapy room, meaning what happens in between sessions? So we came in, we talked about this, you learned something new about yourself, you learned something new about your partner, and then we always say insight is the booby prize of therapy, that you can have all the insight in the world, but if you don't make changes out in the world between sessions, the insight is useless. So then, okay, you have this insight, you learned something, what are you going to do with that knowledge?
Use it.
Like, why are you wasting your time and your money coming in here every week if you're not going to use.
What's been the thing that you've seen as a therapist where you realized, oh, this is something that I have done in my relationships or, oh, actually this is a really great lesson for me because I used to do that and I don't want to do that anymore or something like that. Has there been anything?
I would say all of it.
Really?
I mean, I think that that's what makes relationships so interesting and people think that it's only happening to them. They're like, You only do this, you know, it's really interesting that they don't do this. Nobody does this. Their partners don't do this, or I only act this crazy around you.
Right?
Like I don't do this, nobody else elicits this kind of response in me. Well of course they don't elicit that kind of response in you because you're not in an intimate relationship with them. They're not bringing up all that unconscious stuff that comes up when you're in that intimate relationship. So, I think that the good news for couples is that anything they bring in, I've seen it before. I've experienced probably some of it before. And it's so universal. And if people could stop being so, people can blame and shame. They blame the other person, they feel shame themselves, and then they don't really make progress because they're afraid to really look at these things because they're really uncomfortable talking about them.
Right.
But when they find that, oh, this is just the human condition. And this is what happens when we get scared. This is what happens when we feel threatened. And maybe it's not even your partner who's threatening, but it's something about being this close to someone. Or there's something your partner does that reminds your nervous system of something that happened earlier. Like, who am I talking to right now? Am I talking to the child who had to come up with a way to protect yourself? from whatever was happening and it was very effective. It was ingenious as a child because you had to. You didn't have agency. Or am I talking to the adult who has agency and doesn't need to use that way of protecting yourself that is actually creating some conflict in your relationship? Thank you so much for listening.
I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple podcast as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.
