Alex Honnold Opens UP: The MINDSET Behind His El Cap Free Solo + His Relationship to FEAR & LOVE

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur, and each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome back everyone at School of Greatness. We have the inspiring Alex Honnold in the house. Good to see you sir. Welcome to the show. I have to read this really quick so people can understand how inspiring of an athlete and human being you are. More people will walk on the moon than will do what Alex Honnold has done. For me, just reading that in your bio, I was like, this is unbelievable because not many people in the world can do or ever will do what you've done. And I'm curious if you could explain to people that don't know anything about you what it is you actually do that you think makes you so great.

Well, so I mean, I'm a professional rock climber and a rock climber my whole life. I mean, the thing that I'm most well known for is free soloing, which is climbing without a rope. And I mean, I think the quote that you just read is specifically referring to Free Soloing El Cap, which is a wall in Yosemite National Park, which to date I'm the only person to have done.

No one's ever done it again.

No, no, no.

And what is the, what is it you actually did? I mean, I watched the documentary, it was incredible.

But those are, I mean, yes, the documentary Free Solo kind of covers it, but it's a Free Solo El Capitan, which is a 3,000 foot, granite wall. So yeah, climbing this big wall without a rope.

Without a rope.

Yeah. Which was very challenging. It's funny now it's been a little while and I'm like, oh yeah, it's just climbing. I did this thing. Yeah, I did this thing climbing. But no, it was something that I was working on for many, many years and sort of dreaming about for many years before then.

And how long did the actual climb take?

The actual climb took, I think, 356 or three hours, almost four hours. Four hours. Which for context though, the average party climbing all cabins. So typically you climb that 3,000 foot wall with ropes and equipment and people normally camp on the wall and they.

Normally spend three to five days on the wall. Really? Yeah. So they take three to five days.

You get it in under four hours. Yeah, though it's kind of like the difference between ultra running and backpacking where it's like once you decide not to take all the camping stuff, then it becomes ultra running and you'd wind up going a lot faster. Right. So some of it is just a product of the style. Like by choosing to go without ropes, you just wind up going a lot faster. You have to. But it's obviously a lot more extreme to go without ropes.

So, no, has anyone attempted but they've come down or how?

No, no. I don't even think anybody's playing in that space right now.

Really?

Nobody's really doing anything quite like that.

Why is that? And why is no one else trying to do that? And why were you so curious to do something like that with no rope?

I mean, okay, so. There just aren't that many people free soloing right now. And part of that, I mean, part of that might be broader trends in the climbing world, like climbing went into the Olympics in 2020 in Tokyo. And so right now I think the sort of cutting edge of rock climbing is more on the competition front and the Olympics and World Cups and things like that. And so I think that a lot of the talent in climbing right now is sort of focused on competitions. Whereas when I was growing up, I think some of the sort of cultural, the coolness in climbing was more around speed climbing and big wall climbing and free soloing and things like that, like more the adventure side of climbing. Like if you think of climbing as a spectrum between sort of athleticism and adventure, like I grew up and the pendulum shifted slightly more on the adventure side. Right now I think it's slightly more shifted on the athleticism side, which I think is maybe part of the reason that fewer people are doing big wall solos and more people are going to the Olympics. But whatever, I mean that's just the way a sport grows up. I think the main thing is just that nobody is really doing that much free soloing right now.

In general, not even just like smaller walls or smaller mountains.

Well there must be people doing some stuff that I don't know that much about, but there's just nobody. Well okay, so you know when you ask like, Has anyone free soloed El Cap? Kind of like, man, for me to free solo El Cap took this very long journey and I did maybe 30 or 40 other big walls around the world that sort of led up to it. El Cap is a very particular kind of challenge. And so to tackle that kind of thing, you start by climbing smaller walls or slightly more difficult walls or walls that are maybe smaller but harder in some way or smaller and easier in other ways. And basically you mix and match all these pieces until eventually you feel comfortable doing something that big.

And- that takes years.

Yeah, that took like years and years. But at this point, nobody's even done any of those other pieces. Of the 30-ish things that I did to lead up to El Cap, nobody's actually repeated any of them. So, when you're like, oh, has anyone done El Cap? I'm like, well, no, nobody's even started down the path.

Nobody's even aiming in that direction.

So people are still climbing El Cap with ropes though?

Yeah, yeah, people climb El Cap all the time. All the time with ropes.

But no one's tried it or completed it without ropes. No, free soloing is a completely different thing. Wow, man. I mean, climbing it with a rope, obviously requires a degree of skill and you have to be a skilled climber. But it's by no means elite. Like any average person with, who's like read enough books and had, yeah, you could climb El Cap with the ropes. Come on, no. I mean, it would be, it would be the biggest adventure of your life.

You'd spend five days on the wall, you'd come out totally haggard and, but.

You could do it.

Really?

Yeah.

It seems like it's a straight up wall though.

I mean, with like very little, if you, I'm so big though, I'm 230 pounds. How am I gonna hold myself up? So if the two of us went up El Cap together, and I was able to lead more of it, you'd be able to ascend ropes, you'd be able to camp on the ledge. Really? You could get up it, yeah. You'd be worked, you know, like it would be hard for you. It might take me two days to get up it. But you could do it, you know? Wow. But the difference between that and free soloing, the difference that and climbing without.

A rope is vast. Like, that I would argue you'll never do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't even know if I could climb like 30 feet without a rope on anything, you know, unless it was like, I could walk it. I mean, I think that anybody can learn how to climb to a high level if they're interested and passionate about, you know, if they're curious. But then there's another step between that and then free soloing walls. Yeah, yeah. Because that's like, sort of you have to devote your, like, devote your life to it.

It's like a, you know, when did you first think, like, I want to do climbing in general? How old were you? What it, was there something you saw or some, someone that experienced it with you that you were like, oh, this.

Is something I'm really interested in? No, there wasn't, like, a specific moment. I just, I've always liked climbing. And now I have a daughter who will be two soon and she climbs on things all the time and it's really hard to tell how much that's nature versus nurture because she sees her mother and father climbing all the time and basically everybody around her climbs all the time. So part of that has probably just hurt me being influenced by the people she's around but also she seems particularly into clambering on things and it makes me think that that's probably just how I was as a child because I got into rock climbing because my parents took me to a climbing gym when I was 10, but it's because I've been climbing trees and buildings and things my whole life.

Before that, you were climbing.

So like, okay, let's put him in a gym. Yeah, I was like, yeah, I was really in, you know, I was the kid that was always running across the top of the monkey bars because you're like, oh, look, I can balance, you.

Know, like that kind of just testing yourself on cool things. And so my parents thought that the.

Climbing gym would be a safer outlet, and so they took me in to learn. Did you ever have any like big falls as a kid when you were climbing trees or the monkey bars? Yeah, I fell off my arm twice as a little kid.

Really? Like before I learned how to rock.

Climb, I fell off a place structure, two different place structure things and broke my arm twice. And then I also broke my arm again at the climbing gym when I was a teenager.

Did that pain ever hold you back.

From thinking, maybe this isn't for me? No, no. If anything, you just learned that a broken wrist is no big deal. You're like, six weeks later, you're totally fine. It's like, yeah, that's no thing. Was there ever a time- I mean, I fell out of so many trees. Really?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, when you're a kid, learning how to climb stuff, you.

Just fall down all the time.

But you never were afraid to fall?

Well, no, I think I was afraid to fall. I mean, I don't want to get hurt, but I really like climbing things. And you always think that you're gonna make it. It's like, you never think you're gonna fall off.

Was there ever a climb that you did that is supposed to be really easy? Like almost the most basic climb ever? Like someone like me could do it easily, or someone, you know, maybe someone with some beginner skills could do this easily. that you thought you got into a very sticky situation where you thought, oh, I'm in a bad situation and I could actually fall and potentially die.

I've been in a lot of sticky situations. I'm not sure if any of them were on things that should have, they were actually that easy. I mean, I guess the challenge though is that if you think something should be easy for you and then it winds up being just a little bit harder than you think it should be, you know, when your expectations mismatch reality. then that can be... I mean, the thing with reselling is so much of it is psychological. So anytime your experience doesn't match or like your expectations don't match the reality, then it's easy to get out of control mentally a little bit. Because if you start to get scared, you start to second guess, you start to hesitate. Like all of those things where none of those things help your performance. So then it can start to be sort of a negative spiral where gets quite scary.

What do you think has helped you keep your mindset so clear under challenging situations? Is it the mental preparation? Is it the physical preparation? Is it just being present in the moment?

Well, part of it, I think there are a couple things. One is experience, like being in situations like that, like basically getting really scared and then managing to maintain some degree of self-control when you're really scared. is a bit of an acquired skill. You don't have to get scared over and over. You know, people ask all the time, like, oh, you know, you don't feel fear. I'm like, no, of course I feel fear. I've just gotten scared so much. You just get used to it. So it's scary.

When you feel fear, like, when you're like, oh, I'm in a very scary situation. What goes through your mind and how.

Do you get out of it? Well, I think a lot of the time I experience the same things everybody else does, which is anger, tenseness, like, oh, I hate this. Like, why am I here? Why is this happening to me? You know, like, I don't know. If you're in some tricky situation climbing, it starts to rain and all of a sudden, like, now it's really bad and you're like, oh, I'm so screwed. You know, you start, like, bargaining. I mean, what are all the stages of denial and grief and all those things? You know, you go through the whole list of, like, oh, why? And then at a certain point, you're like, I'm on this cliff and it's raining. No amount of anything is going to change that. You just need to deal. And then you either go up or you go down or you figure it out.

Were you pretty self-taught on your mental conditioning, mental training and mindset around all these things? Or did you have mentors and teachers or friends give you these psychological skills?

Well, I mean, I'd say I'm largely self-taught, but it's not exactly self-taught, thinking about it and figuring it out. It's more like having experiences and just seeing what works over time. But also, I mean, I've always cast a wide net. I've read all the books about climbing. I've read all the, you know, books on mental coaching. But the thing is, when I was growing up as a climber, there were far fewer resources for that kind of thing. Climbing was just a smaller sport. Now there's a lot more available. But at the time, you know, there were a handful of books. I obviously read them all. And I read all the climbing magazines, and you'd read all the stories, you'd read people's memoirs. I mean, a lot of the things you can learn are from other people's experiences in the mountains, and like somebody else has some harrowing experience, and you're.

Like, oh, well, I don't wanna be like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or it's like, I see how he survived.

Like, you know, I should try to do the same thing. if that ever happens to me, you're like, let's hope it never happens. But, yeah.

Who has been your biggest teacher around your mindset in this world?

I honestly don't even, I mean, there are very few people who free solo. And so you don't really talk to other people doing the exact same thing. So it's more like you apply lessons from the other edges of climbing because you can get really, really scared climbing with a rope. Like most of my scariest experiences climbing have actually been with a rope on.

Really?

Because having a rope tied to your harness, doesn't mean that you're actually connected to the wall safely. You still have to place gear into the rock and secure yourself with anchors and things.

Because if you don't have an anchor.

You could fall down and swing and hit your head. Yeah, so have you climbed before at all? I mean, like a rock gym. Have you ever watched a climbing movie? So you tie into the rope and then you start setting out up the wall. And as you go up the wall, you have to place protection as you go. And so sometimes, say, the rock quality is really bad. And so you can't get good protection for 20 feet, 30 feet, 40 feet. And so if you're 40 feet above your last piece, that means you're looking at like an 80 foot plus fall, you know, 'cause you'd fall the distance plus that much past the rope afterwards. The rope afterwards, yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's double the distance to your last piece of rope.

You could die from that probably. Yeah, exactly.

So if you're taking an 80 foot fall, you realistically, you know, like you could die. And then how do you get down? What if you fall, break your arm, or hit your head? How do you get down? Well, that becomes the stuff of legends. You know, then it's like some harrowing survival story, and that's what you read in people's books and stuff. Like, one arm, I was like, yeah, there are all these legendary stories of climbing, like, Some people climbing on the south face of Half Dome, which is like a very big wall in Yosemite, but the guy fell, broke both his ankles, and then they had to extricate themselves from the wall, and then he crawled all the way back down the trail with two broken ankles. What? Yeah, which is like a, you know, seven mile crawl back down to the valley floor. And so anyway, you know, I grew up reading all these stories and reading about these kinds of things. So all that to say, many of the scariest experiences are with a rope on, because having the rope doesn't make you inherently safe, you still need protection. But the thing is, when you do have a rope, you're much more willing to push into the unknown because you're like, surely I'll get to good protection eventually. You know, you have all this gear on you, you're like, eventually I'll get somewhere where I can use this. Like, I'm sure it'll get better. And it's easy to sucker yourself into positions of true fear because you're like, I'm a little scared now, but I'm sure it'll get better. And you keep going and you're like.

Well, no, I'm more scared, but it's gotta get better. And so you keep going, keep going.

It's like a sunken cost fallacy. Yeah, yeah, good money after bad. What's the farthest you've gone without having to, like, I guess, plug in. Without an anchor?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, so doing a first ascent in Africa, I went like the full length of the rope, like 70 meters, so 230 feet without any gear. So we'd eyeballed this feature up this big granite dome in Angola. And from the ground, we thought that the dome was like maybe 500 feet high. And we thought that the big crack that we were looking at would be like a hand crack, like something you put your hands into. It turns out that the mountain itself was more like 1,000 or 1,500 feet high. And so the thing that looked like a crack was actually like a giant man-sized chimney. So it was like bigger than this table. And so it meant that, you know, you have all this climbing gear that would normally fit into a space like the size of this cup and then the crack is the biggest size of the table and you're like, oh no. And so I wound up going a full 230 feet up a thing like that with no protection. And then by sheer miracle of nature, there was a giant rock wedged inside the chimney at a certain point. And so I was able to sit.

Down on that and sort of anchor myself to the rock and then bring.

My partner up and then do it again.

Holy cow, man.

But.

So how many feet was that?

Like 230.

230 feet with no anchor.

Yeah, so in theory, if you fell, you would take a 400 and... You're dead. Yeah, like it would be disastrous.

Was there ever a point where you're like, oh, I'm going too far now. There's nowhere to anchor. If I slip, I'm out. Or do you not have those thoughts?

No, no. I mean, you have those thoughts. You should definitely be aware that if you make a mistake, you're gonna die. And that's the thing with climbing, is that you always have this ongoing dialogue around risk, because you should know when it's okay to fall and when it's.

Not okay to fall. But that point, there was no, it.

Wasn'T okay to fall at that point. Yeah, and so, but that means that you should climb a lot more carefully and you should be very careful about what you grab and how you grab it. Because if you've just placed protection and you know you're totally safe, then you should, you should take risk. You can just grab things, you can.

Move a little faster. Like you don't have to spend a lot of time thinking about everything you.

Do because you're totally safe. Yeah. Hey, and if the rock is good enough to anchor in different places, you're, you know, you can anchor a few feet or something. If you know you're safe, you should just move confidently and move, Move with ease. But if you know you're gonna die, you should probably move pretty freaking carefully. Is it harder to go up or to go down?

Something like that. It depends.

Actually, chimneys, like a big wide thing like that, is actually slightly easier to go down because it's gravity assisted. You just kind of like ease up.

The pressure and you just slide back down. But that's- so this is kind of like a chimney where your feet are.

Against the wall and your back is against the wall. Yeah, exactly.

What if the chimney is too big.

And you're like- Then it starts to get really scary. And you're like, inches holding on, like going up. Yeah, no, I mean if you have to go to like full body span, then it's really hard. Have you ever done that before?

Yeah, but not that far. Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is crazy. So I feel like it'd be almost harder going down, like trying to see where the holds are, and then you have to unhook essentially, right?

It depends on what exactly you're doing. But oftentimes going down actually isn't easier in some ways because when you look down, you can see all the holds. Okay. Because sometimes when you're looking up a rock wall, it's really hard to see you know, what's an incut, like what's a positive edge and what isn't. You know, it just all looks like blank rock. But when you're looking down it, often you can see all the little edges and things sometimes. But then on the other hand, when you're looking down, you're leading with your feet, which are further away and it's kind of hard to see, whereas when you're going up, you're looking at your next handholds, it's all within this tight field of vision. Just depends.

It's fascinating, man.

Now you have to go to a climbing gym and practice this stuff. Oh my gosh. I'm so big though. It's so hard. I don't think it matters. Really? well, okay, so for low angle climbing, like something 90 degrees or less, you're putting all your weight on your feet anyway.

Okay.

And there's big, like, things to hold on to. Even if they're really small holds, the idea is that you transfer as much weight as possible off your feet, and you, and it's like climbing a staircase.

So, I mean, just because you're big, I mean, you can still climb stairs, I assume.

Yeah. Is it that easy, though, at a, like, a rock climbing gym? Yeah. Somebody with good technique should be climbing. So, I've heard described as, when you climb a staircase, you use the handrails, but you use them for balance, not to pull yourself up. And climbing should be the same way basically. That the handholds are basically for balance and you still drive with your legs. I mean, that changes a little bit if the wall gets more than vertical, sure. Because then obviously you're hanging from your arms and then it does, it is harder to be really big and heavy. But, you know, being big and strong helps. Really?

I think the only time, the only chance that I would actually go to a rock climbing gym is if you were there to like, give me some advice and coach me up the wall, that I'd be like, okay, maybe I could do this.

I think it'd be easier for you than you think.

If you have an athletic background, you're like you're strong, you know?

But I feel like my hands and my arms get so tired, like years ago, I was probably using them too much. As opposed to my feet.

Yeah, stand on your feet and then use your hands for balance, you know, be able to relax your hands and just use them to carry. And be close to the wall, right?

That was the wall. Yeah, that's what I remember, it was just so hard.

I was just trying to muscle myself up as opposed to using it.

But that's a common thing if you're already a big strong man, you're like, oh, use my big muscles because I have them. And then they're exhausted. Yeah, exactly. But they get tired so fast.

So it's all in the feet.

Yeah, it's all in the feet.

I read somewhere about you doing a brain scan and having the fear signal in your brain less than others. Is that true?

Sort of, not exactly. So that's also a scene in the film Free Solo in the documentary. And that was taken from a science journalist. We did this profile thing where we used an fMRI and basically like looking images while in the fMRI and you see- Like a brain scan. Yeah. Yeah. And the takeaway was that yes, while doing this battery of images, my brain didn't light up the way that others do. But the conclusion was more that I had probably desensitize myself to that level of stimulus over years of exposure. So not so much like my brain is missing a piece, which I think is the simplistic, like a lot of people are like, oh, there's something wrong with you. And you're like, no, I think the real takeaway is that through, you know, chronic desensitization, like I'm just no longer, like I need a different level of stimulus. Gotcha. Which to me makes total sense. Well, and also, and you see that like in monks and things like that. I mean, people will change their brain in all kinds of ways if you do the same type of activity for long enough. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was a little bit of both nature and nurture where I was probably a little less sensitive to that stuff to begin with, which is probably why I like free soloing and doing some of these other things climbing wise. But then I've also spent 15 at that point, you know, I spent 15 years doing it all the time. And so naturally got more comfortable with it.

A lot of people that come to watch this show or listen, not everyone, but a lot of people struggle with the fear of failure, the fear of going after their goals, going after their dreams and failing, and either being embarrassed by it or just feeling bad about it, and that fear that they're holding on to makes them unable to take action. How do you think people can overcome their fears better? Is it only through taking action over and over and kind of desensitizing yourself to the emotions and the feelings around failure?

Well, that is a good way to do it, I suppose. But I mean, one way I think that you see in climbing a lot is just starting by deciding whether or not your fears are rational or well-founded. You know, I mean, in climbing it's a little bit easier because your fear is often physical. It's based on some physical thing, like you're actually in real danger, as opposed to sort of psychological, like fear of failure and things like that. But I think it's easy to start with, like, Is this a rational fear? Does this make sense? And in some ways that actually makes more sense for the psychological things, 'cause if you're like, oh, I'm afraid 'cause my friends will make fun of me. You know, maybe you should really think about it, like, will your friends make fun of you for taking your shot at your dream? Like, no, your friends, if they're real friends, they're gonna be pretty psyched for you. And they'll be, you know, bummed that it didn't work out, but they'll be impressed that you tried, they'll respect the effort. You know, it's like, I think that that's maybe the place to start is like, is this a well-founded fear in climbing. A lot of the time when you evaluate your fears, they often are well founded. Like if you fail, you will die or, or whatever, you know, like if you slip, you'll die. You gotta start at least. Yeah. And so in those cases, it makes sense by starting by addressing them how you can, you know, mitigating the danger, minimizing the risk, you know, doing whatever you can to make it safer so that you won't be as afraid.

Right.

You know, that's why I think talking about fear is complicated because it's like, yeah, sometimes you should ignore it. You should push past it. You should suppress it. You should do whatever. But a lot of the time you should probably address the root cause of the fear. Like a lot of the time you're afraid because you're actually in danger or because like something terrible. You know, like people being afraid of snakes and spiders. I mean, that's often well founded because there are many places in the world where you will die if you interact with the wrong little creature. Yeah. But depending on where you live, you know, you should know because a lot of them aren't that dangerous. And in that case, it doesn't really.

Make sense to be that afraid.

Right. What are you most afraid of these days? I don't know. I mean, the big, you know, death, I guess.

Are you afraid of death?

I mean, yeah, I'd say I'm afraid of severe pain. I mean, I don't like feeling pain any more than anybody else, really.

Were you afraid of death before you started the family?

Or were you more afraid of- yeah, I mean, I never wanted to die. I mean, I love being alive. I mean, the thing with free soloing is it's not like a death wish. you know, the, I mean, in some ways, the real pleasure of free soloing is taking something that seems like it should be really, really scary and then making it feel safe. Because like on your best climbs, you feel good while you're doing it, but you're doing something that seems like it should be very, very scary. But, you know, that's what makes it magical is because it doesn't feel scary when you do it.

Well, right. But before you got, you know, before you started having a family, did you Did you look at your profession differently than after having a family?

Not so far, but I mean, right now, you know, my daughter will be too soon, and I feel like we're just starting to have like a nice relationship. Maybe in the last six months, I feel like we're actually, you know, we're having a good time. Bonding, yeah, we're bonding. Yeah, we're like, you're just like my buddy now, like we do stuff and it's awesome. And so I wouldn't be surprised if as that relationship grows, You know, my perspective around risk and climbing and stuff changes a little bit.

Really?

But maybe not because I, you know, because I've been in serious relationships with romantic partners throughout all the hardest climbing.

I've done, so... And didn't change the way you would address like the things you wanted to tackle and take on?

No, not really.

Really?

Though I wouldn't be surprised though if children like having dependents is a little bit different. Yeah. Just because romantic partners and so many seem a little bit more disposable, you know? That to be too... Right, right. Right, right.

It's different, yeah.

Yeah, because you have a real raise your child with a romantic partner. You're kind of like, I mean, there are a lot of, there are a lot of people out there.

Exactly.

No matter how incredible your partner is, it was kind of like, I don't feel as beholden to them as I do a child.

Of course. Did you have any fear around having your first child? No, no.

I've definitely always wanted a family. Yeah. I mean, even, that's the thing is that even through all the extreme free soul line and whatever, I've always, you know, wanted to be an old person with grandkids at some point. Really? Yeah. I mean, they're, I mean, they're seasons to life. I mean, you know, you can't, you can't just like do the hardest, craziest thing forever. And why would you want to? You get so tired. It's like, you know, it's, yeah, it's funny. I've had this conversation about, I mean, this is a whole aside, but so, I mean, I'm at the point in life, I'm 38. A lot of my friends are a little bit older, but similar range of life. And so a lot of my friends are starting families right now. And there are a handful of professional climbers, you know, around my age who have partners who like really want to start a family, but they're kind of like not sure. They still have some things they want to do. And, you know, there's like this, this tension between, like, do we start having kids? And a conversation I've had with several of my friends who are professional climbers is that, you know, I've been, I've been a professional climber for 15 years and it's been amazing and I love it. And I've been going so hard for 15 years or actually a little more than that now, like 17 years or something. But I'm 38, so realistically I could keep going at roughly the same pace into my 50s probably because climbing has more longevity than most sports. 'cause it's relatively low impact on your body and you don't really get injured. So you can go pretty hard for a long time. Wow. But so if I doubled what I've done, that'd get me 55. But then I'd still have 40 more years of life potentially before I die. And you're kind of like, there's no way I could do it two more times after that. Wow. It's like you'd be so tired. And just the idea of taking everything that I've done in the last 15, 17 years and then doing it all again, I'm like, I don't even know.

If I want to so much.

Really?

I mean, I've, you know, And probably the more times you do these things, yes, you get more skilled at it and better at it, but it's also more chances of an injury, more chances of something bad happening too, right?

Yeah. And I mean, I would think also just a little bit less passion for it. Because like, if you've just done it all. Yeah, I mean, I haven't done it all. And there are always like other things to do and other challenges, but I have done most of the things that I've dreamt of my whole life. So, Done a lot. You know, like, I can dream up new things, but do they mean as much as the things that I dreamed about since I was a kid? You know, it's like, we can just keep adding more things onto your list because you're like, I don't want the list to end.

Is that cool? For a bigger mountain and a new place.

Yeah, it's gonna be freezing. I'm gonna be naked climbing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm like, do I need that? I'm like, I don't know if I need that. Right. I mean, there are plenty of climbing.

Challenges I'm still understanding things that I'm.

Working on and whatever, but you know, I have done a lot of things that I want to do.

What about, you know, this profession is a dangerous profession. I mean, you've had a lot of people that have lost their lives over the years, right? A lot of people that you're close with or people that you climbed with or knew of. How dangerous is this sport, really?

Well, yeah, I mean, I've definitely known, I've known a lot of people who've died climbing, but part of that is also because it's professional climb where you know everybody. Climbing. So any kind of accident, you at least tangentially know the people involved probably. Um, I mean, climbing is interesting because it's very high consequence. So if you have an accident, it can often be fatal, but you very rarely have accidents. And so I contrast climbing against a sport like mountain biking, let's say, where people break their clavicle like every other season. Right. So, I mean, I kind of prefer a sport like climbing where you basically never get injured, but you're always facing a tiny, tiny risk that you could die.

Wow.

If you did something wrong or if, you know, a lapse of attention or whatever, like there's always the chance you could die and there's always the chance of like minor injuries and things, but, but realistically, if you're just a casual climber that climbs in the gym and goes sport climbing outside on the weekends and stuff, you'll probably go your whole life without ever being injured or witnessing a serious accident. Whereas if you're a serious mountain biker, you're gonna get hurt every year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, gravity assisted sports, like if you're an elite skier, you're getting injured every season. Or like every couple seasons. Right.

You may not die.

Yeah, but that's the thing. That's what I was gonna say is that like as a mountain biker, skier, things like that, it's very rare that you die. I mean, you know, you can, but it's not common, but you're always gonna get injured. I kind of prefer the other risk profile where it's like you're never gonna have little injuries, but there's always the risk you die.

Wow. I think it's a little more heightened. Tell me, yeah, it's very heightened. Is there something about that that excites you? I could go up this right now and not come back.

Well, it's not that it excites me, but I think it demands a certain level of attention and focus. And I just don't like, I don't want to break my clavicle every year. I don't want to separate my AC joint, break my shoulders. I mean, I have friends that have all been hurt biking, doing different things, and you're kind of like, I don't want that. I love climbing and I don't want to take time off because I broke my arm doing something stupid, like skiing and biking and whatever.

What is the thing you think about when you have a long climb and stakes are high? What is the thing that you're thinking about? Are you thinking about the end? Are you thinking about moment by moment? Are you thinking about the next few moments? Are you distracted, putting your mind in a different place? Where does your mind go?

Yeah, it depends. So say on El Cap specifically, like free soloing El Cap, the, the route on El Cap can be broken down roughly as a third easy, a third medium climbing and a third hard, just sort of interspersed throughout the 3000 feet. Like some of it is easy, some of it's, but then some of it's very hard. So on the easy terrain, my mind can just kind of wander and, and you can think about whatever you want on the medium terrain. You know, you kind of have to focus a little more. And then on the very hard terrain, you're basically just focused on the movement and you're not even necessarily thinking about the movement. You're just doing the movement and your mind is just sort of empty. But I think the easiest way to understand that is if you compare it to running or something. Let's say I think most people have had experience running pretty hard. And if you're casually jogging, then you can like look around and enjoy things. But if you're sprinting as hard as you can sprint, then you're really not thinking about anything. You're just trying to keep breathing and keep your feet under you and that's it.

You're just doing the thing. You're second by second. You're just focused on that second.

You're just hoping your lungs don't explode while you're like going as hard as you can. And I mean, so I think that that's a pretty similar, I think it's a good analogy. Basically depending on the level of intensity, you have more or less, you know, you focus more or less. And I think, you know, people are like, oh, you know, if you're distracted on the easy parts, is that dangerous? You're like, yeah, you don't wanna be completely complacent. You don't wanna just like slip and fall off because you're not paying any attention.

Right.

But it's the same way like when you're driving and like, Casual conditions your mind can be thinking about anything else and you can just trust your body to do the thing that you've been doing your whole life yeah, sometimes you.

Drive somewhere you're like how do they get here? You know get to the end spot you're like I don't remember getting here.

Totally youy know, but your body and.

Your mind knows where to go yeah.

And you're paying attention and you're doing something that you've practiced for yeah possibly many hours a day for your entire life which is funny youy know, I mean nobody thinks of driving that way, but it is something that you basically practice and maybe not in an intentional level and not like in a structured way, but you do have a lot of experience with it over your life, especially like living in LA. I mean, if you're trying to be like, yeah, like hours a day that you're practicing this thing that you don't want to do. So, I don't know. I mean, I think it makes sense that some of you've practiced that much.

You can just execute on autopilot.

Yeah.

But before you go up on something challenging, are you visualizing it? Are you, on El Cap, obviously you talked about the whole process of like, going out there, doing the moves, like you had a journal, you're like going over everything, but just on maybe a normal, challenging adventure. How do you approach that?

It depends. Um, I mean, so in climbing basically depends whether I've prepared for it or not because there's some climbs that you intentionally don't practice and train for, but it's climbs all have ratings like difficulties assigned to them. And so there are certain things that are so far within your comfort zone that you just kind of know that you can go out there and deal with whatever you find. And so in that case, you don't necessarily visualize or practice or do anything ahead of time because you just know that it's within your comfort zone. But if something is a hard enough rating that it's like, you know, on the edge of your comfort zone or beyond it, then you kind of have to employ all the techniques I was using on en cap, like, you know, actual repelling it and preparing and practicing and memorizing moves and then visualizing the moves and rehearsing and just all the things. And so, Yeah, it just depends on what level of challenge you're looking for.

From the moment you said, I'm gonna climb Al Cap to the actual day you did it, how much time was that? When you made the decision, this is gonna happen, how much time was that?

Well, a decision like, I'm going to do it, or the dream-- Not the.

Dream, I want to do it. Well, both. What was the dream, but then like, okay, I feel ready, now I'm gonna.

Actually train for it. Yeah, okay. So in 2008, I soloed the North West Face of Half Dome, which is like a 2000 foot wall. And as soon as I did that, I was kind of like, oh, El Cap is the next obvious thing. So starting in 2009, I was like El Cap this year. But then I drove into the valley, looked at El Cap and was like, There is no way. It's totally out of the question. It's way too much, too scary. It's just too crazy. And so then from 2009 for the next, I guess, six years or so, I kept thinking each year that this is the year, maybe this is. Really? Well, I kept kind of just hoping that I would drive into Yosemite and look at the wall and it would look easy. It never did. No, like, and it's funny because even now having done it, I look at it, it still doesn't look easy. How did I do that? That was crazy. Totally. It's, I mean, it's just, it looks insane no matter what. But so I spent years kind of hoping that I would just somehow get a little better and it would just look easy. And so then by 2015, so that's now, you know, six years later of like having this dream. And you were climbing it also, right? Yeah, yeah, I was climbing with ropes and with partners and doing speed records.

And doing all kinds of things.

With ropes, yeah. So you were doing it. But I was doing plenty of other walls without ropes and things 'cause, you know, like I was a professional climber, so I was trying really hard. I was doing all kinds of things. And I was just hoping that by doing all these things, eventually El Cap would look easy. You'd be like, yeah, I got this, no big deal. Yeah, yeah. It's not like I just drove in and was like, I hope it changes. You know, it's like I was like grinding, like all year going expeditions, like climbing hard roots, free soloing big walls, like doing film part, like doing all this stuff. For years. Yeah, for years. Hoping that at some point El Cap would be like, would look chill. And it just never did. So then by 2015, I finally sort of accepted that it was never gonna be easy and that I should probably just start doing the prep work specifically. Like basically start acting as if I was going to do it even if I didn't really know if I could do it and just see what would happen. And then by sheer coincidence, the film directing duo Jimmy Chin and Chai VasarElli, the people who co-directed the film Free Solo, approached me that year by doing a feature documentary. And so as a professional climber, you're like, oh, cool. Somebody wants to make a movie about me climbing something. Like, it makes sense that, you know, I've had this dream that I want to work on forever, and now some people show up wanting to, like, basically help me work on a dream project.

I'm like, this is perfect. And so. So then we made the film free solo. If they didn't approach you to do.

This film, do you think you would have done El Cap? I think I still would have, but I think it actually would have been, well, it would have been harder in some ways, but then also easier in other ways. Because obviously the stress, the pressure of a film project doesn't really help with something like that in some ways. But actually it does help a lot with some of the nitty-gritty, like the logistics, like carrying rope to the summit of the wall, repelling in, working on sections, pulling the rope back out afterwards, stashing stuff, like moving equipment. It does help to have friends and.

Partners involved who are like working on.

The same project with you. So you're not just alone out there. Yeah. No, I just mean the actual weight of like, so carrying 1200 feet of rope to the summit of the wall, each coil, each spool of rope is 50 to 75 pounds. Basically it represents days of effort.

Just to get out there.

Yeah, just to get out there. Not even climb it. Yeah, exactly. It's just a lot of work. And so having a team, you can spread out the work a little bit better. Wow. And it was helpful for me to have people that I could talk to about it. Because free soloing, you normally keep it pretty low key because nobody wants to hear about your soloing projects. Really? No, no, 'cause everyone's like, that's a bad idea.

You shouldn't do that.

Like nobody... No one's encouraging you. No one's encouraging you to climb thousands of feet in the air without a rope. Yeah, exactly. Like if you have a dream like that, that's kind of a fragile dream, like you don't totally believe you can do it, and then all of your friends are constantly telling you you shouldn't.

Do it, you're never gonna try.

You know, so you wanna keep it.

Like pretty close to the chest. So you don't tell people your dreams.

No, not for free selling stuff.

You're just maybe like one person like this is something I'm thinking about and they know they got it. Not even really.

Real del cap, I mean not really. Maybe some like hypothetical conversations with friends over the years, but never like a... Really? Yeah, 'cause it's just like, 'cause it was too much. It's too crazy.

So you couldn't tell anyone, I guess your girlfriend at the time, she knew.

Yeah, well that was the thing with the film project is that once we're doing the film project, then obviously all the people involved with the film know what's going on. And then you bring in a few people because you're filming with them, like climbing partners. And basically because we were doing the film project, it sort of opened the net wide enough that I was able to talk to a handful of people about it, get some advice, which turned out helping a bit.

But otherwise, no one would have known. You would have just rehearsed and practiced for months.

Almost all of my other major free solos were done basically alone.

With no one knowing.

Well, some, I mean with varying degrees, because for certain routes you need a partner to work on them with you. And that's the thing like with El Cap, it's so big, like I knew that I would need partners to help like going up and down and repelling the wall, like repelling the whole wall by yourself. Like you can do it, but it's a grind and doing it over and over is a bit of a recipe for disaster. Like it helps to have somebody with you just to manage the ropes and have the gear and all this stuff. And so it just helps to have a film crew with it because you know, like you might have some really good friends who are willing to go up there with you a couple days. But they're not gonna go up there with you for months. Nobody's that good a friend.

Right.

They're kind of like, okay, unless you're paying me, I'll go up once or twice. Exactly. Yeah, I got a life. Yeah, exactly. And it's like hard work hiking to the top of the wall and rappelling.

Down a big wall over and over. It's not an easy day.

Sunrise to sundown type of thing, like all day. Well, it's actually more like way pre-sunrise, like very, very early, and then trying.

To be down by Before sunset.

Before the sun hits certain parts of the wall. But so it's more like a four to two kind of, you know, 4 a.m. to 2 p.m. operation on the wall every day.

For like every day for months? No, no.

I mean, like a couple days a week. I mean, they're really big days you have to rest.

Okay, so you had the dream kind of hypothetical since 2008 or 2009, but then you realized, oh, this is actually the most terrifying thing I've ever seen in my life, probably. At one am, I thinking, that's a crazy dream. But every you come back, you train, you try other stuff, you come back. hoping to look at the wall and thinking, I got this. For years, you didn't have it. Until the point where you said, maybe I've got this. And then the film crew said-- Not even necessarily maybe I've got this.

More like, you know what? I'll never know if I've got this or not unless I try. Because I kept kind of hoping that it would look easy before I put in the work. And finally I realized I had to flip it and put in the work.

Before it would look easy.

Just to act as if you were going to attack it. Exactly. Exactly. Basically, I just realized that I'd have to put in all the work and then maybe it would happen, maybe it wouldn't, but I would just have to put in the work regardless to find.

Out because otherwise I was never going to know. And so what did that work look like for you?

Like how much time, how many reps? So yeah, so then the work wound up being, as it turns out, almost two years of effort on the wall. But part of that's because one of the seasons I injured my hand and like a climbing phone, just like random things happen, you know, life happens. And I climbed a bunch of other routes while I was working on it and, you know, life goes on, but basically it was like another two years of like working on this El Cap project.

With one goal essentially. Yeah. And mapping it out, how does that look like then? Do you kind of have your journal and map out here's the game plan for month one, month two.

Yeah, a little bit. And then actually more specifically I had my game plan for the route itself. Like here are the parts that have question marks. Like I'm not sure about this one move on this one section and like what about this section? And then there's like these loose rocks up here and there's like this bush in the crack up there and you know, there's just random stuff. You're like, And so then, you know, piece by piece, I worked my way through the checklist, so to speak, and, you know, tried to like make myself feel comfortable in the different parts. And I found workarounds through around a few sections that I never really felt that comfortable. And, yeah, and then eventually just sort of.

How many times did you do the whole thing assisted with ropes before you went after it?

Not that many, but that's because , climbing the whole route from bottom to top with a rope actually wasn't the most efficient way to work on it because like I was saying, maybe a third of the route is pretty easy. You don't need to do that. Yeah, and the third, this, this kind of medium, I don't really need to do that either.

So I kind of wanted to focus all my effort on the hardest sections.

Ah, just because it's a better use of time. So it's just doing section after section, just repeating it. Yeah, the other thing is that if.

You climb from bottom to top, then.

You need a partner with you. Right. Able to climb a wall that quickly. And there aren't that many. There's like five people maybe.

Yeah, yeah.

Like literally there are a couple in the world. In the world, yeah. And they're willing to do that with you. one or two times, but then they're pretty tired and they're kind of over it. They're sort of like, why are we doing this over and over? So for me, it made more sense to rappel down the wall by myself or with a partner and work on the key sections, because then I can be a little more strategic about the hardware. So you started at the top and went down? Yeah, I generally start at the top. Oh, interesting. Yeah, so like a typical day might be starting at, like, hiking to the.

Summit very, very early in the morning.

How long does that take to hike it? Like an hour or two, like two hours. Like an easy route on the back. Yeah, you basically hike around the back. Oh, okay. So I'd like bike across the valley, get to the, get to the spot in the forest, you hike around the back, takes a couple hours. But that's like when you have all your stuff already set up on the wall, like with gear loads moving really fast. And then you repelled on the wall. I'd typically repelled down to the hardest section, which is 2,300 feet off the ground. And then I would do that a bunch of times. And then I would keep going from there down and then work on a couple other sections on the way down and then try to be down by lunchtime or something.

When you're rappelling down 3,000 feet and you see the ground 3,000 feet below you, do you ever get scared?

No.

Really? I was hoping-- well, but like if.

You get scared just from seeing it, then how are you gonna climb without a rope? You know what I mean?

That's crazy, but you're so high up, man.

I know, but that's fine. But you're secure, you're on a rope.

Or in a harness. You can just look down and hang there dangling and you feel fine.

If you know that you're safe. I mean, if I thought the anchor was gonna rip, then I'd find it really scary. you know, like if I thought that the rope is about to snap, then I find it pretty scary.

Right, but if you're just hanging dangling and you feel like everything's secure, I'm good, you can just sit back, dangle.

3,000 feet in the air and not worry. Well, like so when you ride in an airplane and you look out the window, is that scary?

You're like, no, you feel totally confident.

In your safety and it's pretty chill. Yes, but I'm seated inside of something. Yeah, but it's the same thing, I'm in a harness, you're just sitting in your harness. I'll be dead. But if it, you know, it's something that you've spent five days a week doing for 20 plus years. Yeah. Like, it feels pretty chill. Have you ever done those observation decks and skyscrapers where it's like a glass floor and it's kind of scary? Yeah, it's like a little scary. But you know you're safe. But you saw all those other people doing it. You're like, it's safe, it's fine.

And then it's chill on it. You just enjoy the view.

You appreciate the place. You're like, it's cool.

Yeah.

After a minute, you're like, okay, I'm fine. If it's just a little square.

And I know I can.

That's the other thing with, with all this, you know, all my talk of hiking to the top, repelling the wall, you're spending eight hours a day on the wall. So yeah, I'm not used to it. The first step over the edge can be kind of scary. And especially in the morning, there'll be like an updraft and it's cold wind and you're like literally looking over the edge of a 3,000 foot cliff and your ropes are all tangled and it's like chilly and you're just sort of like, oh, I'm a little on edge.

But then once you start, like you.

Just can't be on edge all day.

You know, eight hours in, you're like, I'm so tired. You're relaxed. Yeah, I feel like it's fine. Now, after you completed El Cap, your wife mentions in Arctic Ascent, which is the new show coming out, which the trailer is unbelievable. We'll have it linked up here. She mentioned that you seemed lost. And as an athlete myself, pursuing goals in many different sports in high school and college, being a two-sport All-American professional athlete, USA handball team, I remember accomplishing big athletic goals and almost feeling depressed within 30 to 60 minutes after the celebration.

30 minutes?

I remember like maybe a couple hours, but like the dinner after the event was done, like later that night, I'd be like hoping to feel something else. I never really felt what I thought I would after 10 years of pursuing a goal. I was always like, oh, I still don't love myself the way I think I should. I don't feel happy the way I'm supposed to feel. I don't feel it didn't solve every problem in my life. Yeah.

No, I mean, I think maybe I'd sort of already learned that lesson a bunch of times before common El Cap. Yeah, you know, you just learned that it's not solving any of your problems. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that said, I still love climbing things. So, like, climbing El Cap, I was still very satisfied, and I'm still very satisfied with having climbed. I was never. But I think what my wife referred to, I mean, I would always, like, I don't know if I was really lost, but I think that, I mean, we started dating right as I started the process of free soloing, just by sheer coincidence of when we met and whatever, but it was like basically right at the beginning of my journey to actually free solo cap the final two years of like training and doing it. So she had only dated me through the most focused and intense period of my entire life, basically. The biggest goal. Yeah, the biggest goal of my whole life. Like this is the pinnacle achievement of all of my climbing. Like this is everything. and then I do it. And then, yeah, I mean, I'm sure from her perspective, I'm like, a little bit more relaxed, a little more like, what do you know? And it is true that when you let a big goal like that go, either by having done it or by walking away from it, because it's not possible for you for whatever reason, I mean, it does. There is a little bit of a hole left behind. We're like, oh, like, what gets me out of bed now? Like, why. Why get up early? Why try? What's my purpose?

My mission.

Yeah. Or like, why do I care about my diet if I'm not. If not for some important thing, like, should I just eat dessert all every day, you know?

So what, when did you, I mean, how long was that phase for you until you got clear on the next purpose?

It'd be hard to say because that season, so part of my process actually for free soloing on cap was because free soloing is so psychological, so much of it's mental. I mean, physically I knew I was capable, but it's like the mental side is challenging. And so even though I knew it would be the most important thing I'd ever do in climbing, I didn't want to put it on too high of a pedestal because I didn't want to build it up even higher in my mind than it already was. And so in a way to sort of offset that in a way to keep it feeling more normal for myself, I tried to just keep my Yosemite season as like one of many things throughout the year. So the season that I free soloed Al Cap, I also had an expedition planned to Antarctica that winter. It was like my first trip to Antarctica and It was a North Face expedition with the whole team and I was just going with people. And I didn't even necessarily want to go because I thought it'd be too cold, as it turns out. It is too cold. No, actually it turns out it was one of the best expeditions of my life and it was amazing. Really? But at the time I was like, that sounds crazy. I don't want to go. But that's a different story. But so because I knew I'd be going to Antarctica, I also planned this expedition to Alaska with some other people. Again, it was like someone else's trip, but I was going to go with them because it's a good way to practice the skills for Antarctica. and I'd been there with him before and we had some unfinished business, we didn't do this thing. But so basically I had my Yosemite season where I was hoping to free solo all cap, but I already had these other trips lined up and these other climbing goals and these partners and like plans because I wanted Yosemite to feel like, oh, I'm using Yosemite to get fit for Alaska and Alaska is getting me fit for Antarctica and it's all just part of the normal cycle of being a professional climber where you go from like one thing to another. And yes, of course my goal in Yosemite is way more important than any of those other things. but it makes it feel like it's more normal and that keeps it from feeling too crazy for me.

Too intense, too stressful.

Yeah, and so when I did El Cap, like a week later, I went to Alaska and went on this expedition. And as it turns out, it actually was kind of a perfect come down because we had terrible weather. So I spent a bunch of time in my tent, I read a bunch, and after, you know, years of training.

For El Cap and like several months.

Of intense physical effort. You reflected more, yeah. Yeah, then I was actually, you know, just because of the Alaskan weather, I just got to spend a couple weeks in my tent reading, being like, oh, like chill. you know, but so your question though of like, was there a big come down? Kind of like, yeah, there was a little bit, but there was kind of this natural order of other trips and plans and goals and like, you know, I mean, as a climber, you just always have something that you're interested in. Sure. But then it was complicated because then the next year the film came out and then the free solo film, I called it my deployment to Hollywood, sort of like a military deployment.

Yeah.

Cause it was basically six months of like nonstop traveling events. Press, interviews, film, motion, nonstop everything. and I knew it was a once-iN-A-Lifetime thing, so I totally embraced it. I was like, I'm going all in. I'm doing everything they tell me to do. I'm here for the experience. Like, oh, there's Bradley Cooper again. I met him at the last six things too. You're like, cool, because he was touring with a Star is Born or whatever. And you're just like, oh, Bradley, you're so handsome. It's like every time you bump into him, you're like, you,'re still so handsome. But I knew that it was a once-iN-A-Lifetime thing, so the events are fun. I mean, you meet cool people. Yeah, but it's cool, you know? It's like crazy stories. And you know, it's the only time you'll do it. So you're just like, that's fine. But then again, then you have a crazy come down afterward because you've just spent six months basically living this insane Hollywood lifestyle. Yeah. Well, it's like high but also kind of low because you're basically just going from airport to venue to hotel to airport to venue to hotel, like for months, which for me especially as a professional climber is like a complete change from normal lifestyle. Yeah, you want to be outdoors. Yeah, normally I like hike to the cliff, I spend the whole day working on some random thing with my partner, and then we hike back and it's all super chill. And then, you know, during the free solo film tour, we're having days where you wake up in New York City, you fly to SF, you drive for an hour, you do an event, you drive back to the airport, you fly again to LA, and then you do another event that night, and you're just like, I'm literally a piece of meat that's being shipped in a can around the country. You're like, this is crazy. But you're also like, what a unusual life experience, you know? I think I had two different days like that. There were double days where it's like.

You wake up in Chicago, you fly.

To New York, you do an event, and then you fly to LA and you do another event that night and you're like, how can you even do that many events? You did two premieres in one day. Yeah, not two premieres necessarily, but screenings or press things or whatever.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, but stuff. So that was six months.

Yeah, it was like six months. Touring around, speaking, showing up, taking photos.

Maybe it was like five, but it was really, really long. And you weren't able to really climb during that. I mean, I was training in the gym a lot. Quite a bit.

Lifting or you were more like a rock climber?

Any gym you could find in the.

Country, you would just go.

Yeah, yeah. founding gym in the country, basically. You went to, yeah.

Wow, man.

So would you ever do that experience.

Again where you're hanging out with, I.

Mean, for the right thing, you know, it is fun. Like, it's a crazy experience. It's cool.

What was the crazy story that, that.

Came out of that in those five? There's so many. I mean, in some ways, my wife and I now have a lot of the fun little couple stories, like one of the Oscars after party things, Mahershala Ali, whatever, you know, the guy, I think Green Book, I think, I don't know, I forget if he'd won something or not, but he was obviously, like, nominated. He's great actor and very handsome and all Dapper in this amazing suit with this entourage. Anyway, he was like walking by and he, like, just shook my hand or something because we had just, you know, it was just, anyway, my wife was like holding a bunch of hors d'oeuvres because we're pillaging all the free snacks and she literally just threw her snacks on the floor so she could be like, hello and shake hands with him and she was like so delighted to meet him. But it's just like the fun story of she like just dumps all her.

Food so she can be like, hello.

You know, it's her one chance to shake hands with Ursula. That's fun. I don't know, just things like that, you know, random. Wow.

You saw Bradley Cooper, what, six times?

I mean, a bunch, because everyone's on the same circuit. It's like the directors, you go to the world, the screen actors go to the world, the whatever is the... The BAFTAs, the... I like presented in a word at like the audio guild, the academy thing, you know, just like, it's all part of the campaign.

It's, I don't know. So you just do what everybody tells you.

You just felt like a piece of meat though, huh? Just being shipped around everywhere, basically. But I mean, it's fine. You're just doing what you're told. I mean, it's like having a job. Sure.

But you're like, what a weird job. Did you get paid for that?

No, but they pay for your flights and hotels. Yeah, of course it's all expenses covered. And then, you know, I make some percentage of what Free Solo made, and then Free Solo was shockingly successful, and so then, you know.

So you get a cut of that.

Yeah, so it's not, it's disingenuous to say I'm not gonna pay, 'cause obviously it's all good for me. You're helping promote something that could pay you. Yeah, exactly. Wow. And then when you think how well the film wound up doing, and then, you know, I wound up getting corporate.

Speaking offers and things like that, like.

Obviously the film doing well has been very good. good for me and my family, and that's all great. But the actual day to day, you're not getting paid, and you're just like, this is a lot.

Like, it's crazy.

Well, I mean, you're not getting paid to climb a mountain either day to day, I guess. Well, that's true. That's true. I mean, my friends and I often joke that if you broke out your pay as a climber by hours of hard labor, you know, you're getting paid like, petties. Yeah, two bucks an hour to carry.

Like a 50 pound backpack of a mountain. And then you're kind of like, this is pretty hard work. We're not that much money.

Right.

But it's because you love doing it, and it's so fun. Of course. I'm curious, you mentioned this in Free Solo, but how many people that you've either climbed with or know as climbers have lost their life?

No, I don't know. I mean, it depends on how wide of a net you cast to between close friends versus casual acquaintances and things. But, you know, in the broader community, like dozens probably. But close friends, you know, a handful. Really?

Yeah. Was there ever a time where there was, like, did anyone ever lose their life on a climb that you were on ever, or an expedition?

No, I don't think so. Nothing like too, too close. I mean, I've seen a couple terrible accidents at cliffs, where somebody, yeah, like you hear a scream and you run around the corner and then- They broke.

Their leg or something or... Well, a.

Couple things like that. No, I mean, people dying, though. Really?

Like you were there?

Yeah. Yeah.

You were. I mean, it wasn't in your group or was just another group or different.

Group, like some random kids at this climbing. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, man. What's that?

Yeah. Kid fell and some of the protection ripped out. He landed on the ground and his head collapsed, basically, and he died.

What's that like when you're on a climb and you see and you experience that?

I mean, yeah, I mean, it's, you know. Yeah, it's terrible, but. Well. But you're also, you're always sort of rationally aware of the risks involved. And so, I mean, and this might be one of the things that separates me from some of my friends or family, let's say, because I don't know if my wife feels the same way necessarily, but I feel like I'm rationally aware of all the risks involved. And so seeing them firsthand is sobering for sure and very sad. And seeing his friends was very, they were all very inexperienced. And so nobody had any idea how the accident happened or what had happened or why he's dying. It was all terrible. It's terrible for the partners and, you know, so that's like hard to watch. But you are sort of like, this is what you've signed up to do. You're like, you know that this is a possibility. Seeing it doesn't make it any less of a possibility. You know, like it basically is always on you to mitigate risk as much as possible. Right.

Man.

It's just, I mean, yeah, it's pretty intense. It's intense. Yeah.

Does something change in your brain or in your heart when you're, I guess, seeing either a bad accident or seeing someone, you know, lose their life is something shifting inside of you, or are you just saying it's more of, like, a blessing and a gratitude of, like, okay, this is. I have to really make sure I prepare. It's another reminder of how difficult and challenging this is. Well, that's the thing.

I think you can go either way. I mean, I think you can either deal with those kinds of things by sort of shutting yourself off to it and, like, endanger yourself, like, numb yourself to it and be like, it doesn't matter that. whatever, don't care. Or you can sort of let it in and be like, this is really, really sad and there are high consequences in this sport, but I love doing the sport anyway and it's still worth it to me. But I will do my best to avoid things like that happening. Right.

Yeah.

I mean, in some ways I think that that second option is the slightly more responsible and sort of the more seasoned response maybe. And I think that that's kind of where I probably am now. whereas I think as a younger, you know, as a early 20s man, it's easier to just either shut it out or just be like, well, they made a mistake and that won't happen to me, which is like a little. It's not really the right call.

What's the biggest loss you've had, whether it be like an emotional loss or a physical loss?

You mean like loss, like blow in life or loss, like somebody dying?

Could be, should be like, a grieving of anything. You know, it could be a physical grieving of someone, or it could be an emotional grieving of something.

I don't know.

I mean, there are the obvious things.

That come to mind, like my father died when I was 19 and, you know, like, grandparents have all died and, like, family members have died. But those are kind of, like, normal grieving in a way, where, like, in some ways, that's the natural course of life. Like, my father obviously died much younger than. Than he should. But it's still sort of natural in a way. You're like, you know, at some point your parents are gonna die before you hopefully. And you kind of want them to because it's better for them to die before you than for you to die before them. And so, you know, now as a parent, I'm like, well, I hope I die before my daughter or daughters soon. So, I mean, that to me is sort of like natural grieving. In some ways I think accidents and climbing accidents are almost harder. Even though they're, you know, in some ways more fair, it's like people are taking risks with their lives occasionally they die. You're like, well, that, you know, they made choices and I mean, that's kind of the callous way to look at it, but it's still really sad and it's sad for their families and I don't know. I've only had a couple like truly close friend climbing partners who have died in accidents. Really? None of them were with me. But those are sad because you see the impact on the families and you're just like.

You're close to their friends, their families, you know their circles.

And you still think about them, you're like, oh, it'd be nice to hang out with that person right now. But I don't know. I mean, that's kind of the thing with climbing, though, is that it is harder than, you know, like, I assume that you haven't had a lot of fellow handball athletes die playing handball. No, I know. Yeah.

I mean, football's more intense and people get injured. Yeah, but it's still rare.

Yeah, rare. Like, almost never die. Yeah, it's rare. No, with climbing, I mean, There is a lot more risk, but then that also gives you more from the sport in some ways. Like I think some of the life lessons you can take from climbing you can't necessarily get from handball. I mean, with all respect for handball.

Sure.

Because obviously all the lessons are on like training and perseverance, like those are all kind of the same. But some of the like managing fear and like the- Different, different life lessons. Yeah, it's just different things. Yeah, of course. Yeah, you're not like managing mortal peril. in the same way. It's different. And grieving friends and being actually afraid for your life. Though it's funny because being afraid of failure or being afraid of pressure of competition feels the same as being afraid for your life in a lot of ways. In some ways. And depending on the person and depending on how neurotic they are and how stressed they are, it can be worse.

So what about the biggest emotional loss you've had or thing you've had to grieve?

I don't know. I mean obviously relationships, you know, like failed relationships and things, and particularly when you're younger and it just all seems like it matters more. But in the grand scheme of things, none of those are that big a deal.

Do you feel like you have a bigger heart because of the things you've been able to overcome? Do you have like an expansion of giving and receiving love?

I think I started from a very stunted place. Really? And with steady nurturing through my wife and not having a family and, you know, good community and good relationships, Now my stunted cold heart has grown to like a below average size.

Really?

Yeah, for sure.

Do you think it's hard for you to feel loved?

Yeah, yeah.

Why do you think that is?

Partially because I think there are, you know, billions of people on Earth and it's all slightly arbitrary. You know, it's like if I didn't exist, then the people around me would love other people and they would be fine, you know, like life would go on. Wow. I mean, it's a slightly callous approach to it, but I also think a very true approach.

But when your wife is trying to, you know, show appreciation or love on you, are you able to receive that, or do you feel like it's kind of distant?

We joke sometimes that she's just shoveling dirt into a bottomless hole for her whole life. Or shoveling love into a deep, dark hole. But the thing is, she's an incredibly caring person, and she's, you know, she's accepted a challenge in life.

Oh, my God.

And I mean, it might not be quite that bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially now, like with having kids and, you know, having more of a family. You're growing a little bit. That's the thing.

I think the stunted darkness is growing a little bit.

Why do you think it's hard for you to receive love? I don't know.

I mean, does it matter? To receive love?

Yeah.

It feels great to receive love, doesn't it?

Well, I wouldn't know. The bottomless dark holes, like, you know, I don't know.

I mean, I guess.

But do you really believe it? Even if somebody, you know, Man, even if someone's very genuine and they're like, oh, but I really love you. But do you really? Because if for when I disappear, obviously.

You think, oh, yeah, okay, if someone disappears, I guess it doesn't matter. They can still love you if you're not around. If you died, your wife can still love you for the rest of her life.

Your kids can still love you. But I actually think that she wouldn't because I think she'll basically just forget because that's human.

And I don't think people forget if.

They have a great relationship.

With them though?

No, but even still you lose the details. I mean, that's physiology, you know?

It's like you just, it's like you.

Have memories, you have photos, you have videos. I know that's an interesting thing with memories. I mean, this is kind of a whole aside, but I mean, so I've kind of noticed this being a professional climber. So a lot of my life is on video and in photo and whatever. And there are a lot of climbs that I don't even really remember that well now, you know, 15 years later or something. And so your memory starts to be supplanted by the video or by the photo or by whatever the external memory is, you know, like the thing that you're supposed to remember. And you're like, I don't actually remember the experience. Like, I don't know what I was feeling. I mean, I know what the article said or what the book says or what the video shows or whatever. But I'm like, I don't remember. You don't remember the feeling. Yeah, I mean, it's been a long freaking time. So all that to say, though, I think that a lot of memories, what people think of as a memory is actually just the story that they've told themselves about it over and over. I agree to that. Or the story that they've you've told to others about it over time. Sure. And so it's not like they actually remember it. They just keep reminding themselves of like this terrible thing that happened to them or this thing that they lost or whatever. But if they stop reminding themselves, they'll just forget.

Yeah.

For better or for worse, you know, like in a lot of cases, that's.

Probably better if it's something you've lost. So when do you feel the most loved? When you're doing what? Or experiencing what? When do you feel, I don't know if you've ever talked about love before.

Yeah, totally. No, no, it's fine. Well, okay, so like last night I was at a good friend's birthday party. kind of a nice little sort of family affair, like maybe four couples all hanging out, all like very close friends, all part of the climbing community. And not that I felt loved per se, but everybody was having a very nice time and it's like everyone's genuinely laughing and like having a great connection. And I was like, oh, this is nice. Like this is real community. Like this feels good, you know?

So you felt the love.

Yeah, you feel like the community, the niceness in the air, you know, where you're like, oh, this is a true group.

Like, this is a good moment. It's a good feeling.

Yeah, totally.

Did you feel loved as a kid? Did you feel like you had good community and connections and friends and family that you felt loved?

I mean, I objectively did have good community and good family and, you know, was, like, raised in a comfortable, safe environment. Like, basically, it's all should have been fine, but I don't know if I necessarily felt love.

Really? Who influenced you more, mom or dad?

It's hard to say. It's hard to say because my dad died when I was 19 and so, you know, it's hard to remember. A lot of ways I'd say like in terms of world view and things now, it seems clear that I'm more like my mother maybe, but it's also because I don't know my father as well because I've never got to know him as an adult. But in some of the very obvious ways, my father had a bigger influence because he was the one who actually took me to the climbing gym all the time and drove me to youth competitions he wasn't a climber, but he just, you know, it's kind of like being a little, little league dad or something.

He was just supportive. So he was really supportive. He showed up to your, he took.

You to all the events. Yeah. Yeah. He was encouraged. He was really, what are, like, love languages and things. You know, he was really good with time. Like, he was happy to, like, give quality time, but not even necessarily quality because quality time would be like, oh, you're really having a moment together. But I just mean, like, the showing up and, like, doing the thing for you, like, maybe acts of service. Acts of service. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he was good at that kind of thing, which I think as a kid you kind of take for granted because like, well somebody has to take me to the gym. But now as an adult, I'm like, man, he took me to the gym a lot. A lot of time. Yeah, that's a lot of time at the climbing gym. You know, and especially for, I mean, he was like a middle-aged professor who's like belaying me. Like he would climb a little bit.

Mostly just because I would need to.

Rest every once in a while. So then he would like climb something because he's there. So he dedicated a lot of time actually. Yeah, yeah, he would belay me like on four or five routes and then he would do one and then I would do like four or five and he would do one. And you know, it's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, no, it's exactly. And that's the kind of thing that now as an adult I can see that like that's that's a big thing on his part.

He committed yeah, he had a lot of commitment.

What was the biggest lesson that your dad taught you? Well, I don't know. I mean, I think is that I think it's like the showing up is the most important thing in some ways. Wow. Which I mean, and this if we're really going deep on relationship stuff, I mean, this is a common point of contention in my marriage is that To me, actions are the most important thing. You know, my wife, like, wants more words of appreciation. Words of affirmation? Yeah, words of affirmation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever.

So, I mean- that physical touch? Yeah, yeah, I think we both are fine with that. But, like, I think she wants a little more, like, telling.

And I think that doing is more important. the action.

Yeah. I'm gonna show up for you.

Because I'm like, anybody can say the right things, but doing the right things is hard. I think the same thing, man.

I think, who's gonna commit and take the actions, you know? Yeah, well, that's the cynic in me, because I'm like, anyone can say, like a good actor, you know, since we're in LA, it's like you see all the billboards, like any good actor could convince you that they just absolutely adore you, but it doesn't mean anything unless.

They actually show up and do the things.

Yeah, do what they say they're gonna do.

Yeah, like for years.

Consistently.

Yeah. What do you wish you got to say to your dad that you never got to say?

Is there anything? Well, it's hard to say. I mean, if we're really getting into it, I mean, my parents got divorced the year before he died. basically like when I graduated high school and they'd sort of been like staying together for the kids, which in retrospect was a terrible idea and they should have gotten divorced when we were like seven. I know that. And so it's kind of, it's unfortunate because I felt like I never got to know him as his own like thriving adult because he was in this relationship. Like basically their whole situation like didn't seem that healthy. And so now, you know, I'm like oh they should have just gotten divorced when we were kids.

And they've both been happy separate.

And then both been like happy independent adults and we could have actually gotten to know them as real people instead of having this kind of like dour, you know, like non-person.

Yeah.

Because in the year that after he got divorced, he was sort of starting to thrive in his own, you know, he was like kind of psyched on his own stuff and like doing his thing, but then he died. And so, you know, it's hard to really know him because. Right. Yeah, because the things I hear from all my family members on his side of the family, you know, things like before I was born. So we're like, oh, wow, it's really different than the person that I knew.

Is there anything you wish you could have said to him that you didn't get to or?

No, no. Man, last night, like, since we're, last night, one of my wife's really good friends, we listened to this really long audio message from her that she had just had a family member die, but she left this long audio message that is basically this very heartwarming story about how she had just crafted this long message to the family members I remember telling him how much they meant to them and blah blah and then basically the person was like dying the next day. Oh man. And his daughter had the opportunity to like read this message to him before he died and so this friend, you know, was incredibly, it was all like, I was like, man, this is a lot. It was like a straight up Hallmark card. It was deep. Yeah, it was deep. I was like, wow. But I also, it's like, wow, that's kind of incredible because she was so much more at peace with the death knowing that anything she ever possibly could have wanted to say, she managed to say to the person before they died and they died knowing everything that, Wow. Everything that they meant to this person. You know, I was like, oh, that was my takeaway, was like, man, if you know, if you have any friends, like, you should just say the thing before.

And that's why your wife wants words of affirmations.

Yeah, exactly. But at least when she does, she'll know that I was always there for her.

I didn't tell you how I felt, but I showed you how I felt.

Yeah, that's exactly, exactly. I didn't tell you enough, but I did try to show you.

But you just said right there, you should say to the people you care about.

I know, I know. But it's, you know, it's harder to do.

Do you feel like that's one of your greatest mountains to climb right now is to actually step into that or.

Is that just, maybe? I mean, that's probably a big part of being a good dad, so. But we're not quite there yet, thankfully, at this point.

They're not old enough yet for the communication that way.

Right now, the big challenge this morning, the diaper I changed had poop going all the way up the back through multiple layers of clothing. No, and destroyed everything. Not destroyed, but sprayed everywhere. Yeah, because then trying to take off the dirty shirts, you know, using a poop in the hair, you get poop in every, I was like, this is, this is, yeah. Wow, man. Parenting is at a different phase right now. It's like poop everywhere.

I'm sure you'll look back at the memory and it'll be better than the moment, but we were talking about before we started rolling about your biggest challenge. And you were kind of mentioning, like, right now, and you were kind of mentioning what to do when you were underperforming. And you said you feel like you're failing a lot or not living up to an expectation.

Yeah, essentially failing, but, yeah, just not performing at the level that you think you should.

So why do you think that's happening in your life right now?

It's hard to say. I mean, I mean, yeah.

And your failure is still, like, the greatest in the world at what you're doing.

Yeah, the greatest in the world. But I'd say my sucking is still, you know, pretty good, but it's way worse than what I think it should be. You know, it's, it's hard to, why.

Do you think the, why do you think that's happening?

I don't know. No, I mean, it's a long, long, sorted tale, you know, like I did a expedition this summer where I, a partner and I bicycled 2000 miles to Alaska and then climbed some mountains, but it was basically a two month trip. And, and, and over that, over the course of the trip, I kind of got grounded to us. Like I was, I was kind of worked. you were worn out. Yeah, I was like worn out.

That's a mile, that's a long time.

Yeah, but he was doing well and for whatever reason though, I just wasn't really recovering and was kind of like getting worse and worse. Typically with a lot of exercise, if you get enough rest, you respond to it and you get better and better. In this case, I was kind of just getting worse the whole time. And then I came back and was kind of sucking for a month or two, but that was kind of understandable because I was like, I'm digging back out of this hole. And the expedition was successful. We did the things we were trying to do and it was cool and it'll be a film on National Geographic as well. And so, you know, it's like, it's fine. Like, I don't mind having a trip like that where you get ground to dust if you do the things that you set out to do. And then I don't mind spending some time recovering. Like, that's totally understandable. But I spent the time recovering and then since then I've just never quite, you know, I keep having like moments where I feel about as good as.

I think I should be and then.

It kind of disappears again. I keep having glimpses of like, really? Like physically or mentally or- Yeah, physically. But I feel like the mental side follows the physical as a professional athlete especially because if you just can't do the thing that you want to do, you know, I mean even doing like a podcast like this is like basically, you know, it's the school of greatness, but what if you're not great? Then what do you do?

Should I just like walk out right now?

Should I just give up? Yeah, because for the last couple weeks I haven't been that great or like.

Last couple months I haven't been that great. So I'm like, should I just go?

Right.

I've had those seasons where I'm just like, tired or maybe I've just worked too hard and I feel like I'm not able to be as present or at the top of my game. But I was telling you before, yesterday was our 11 year anniversary of the show where every week for 11 years, the show has come out.

That is.

And I think also, you know, you have consistency. And you've been doing this for 20 plus years. It's like you're not always going to win every game or be the best every time, every climb or every interview. it's not always going to be my greatest performance, but I think the consistency over time is a level of greatness, even if you didn't want to do it that day, even if it was a subpar performance.

But so that's the whole tough thing as a self-coach climber, is that, so I agree consistency and just showing up, and that's normally my approach for training and things. Like even on the days where you kind of suck, like you just grind out the But if you're digging yourself into a hole, you have to know when to put down the shovel and like get out of the hole. True. You know, it's all the rest. Yeah, exactly. And that's the challenge when, when you're like, am I sucking because I need more rest or am I sucking because I need to train harder? And you just don't know which path you need to take. And they're totally divergent paths that lead to totally different things. And so I think that recently I've been sort of on the, I've been doing a little bit of both, you know, and maybe not quite nailing either.

And I'm not sure which is the right. So you'll spend a couple of weeks training harder and you're like, that's not working.

Let me take a week.

To recover more, that's not working.

Yeah, like, what do I do? You're like, what do I do? A little bit of both, yeah. Like, huh, you know, we're like training more, but then the whole family got sick and like the baby's sick and you're up in the middle of the night and then you're sort of like, well, that winds up being like a week or two of rest as it turns out, like, quote unquote rest, but like not heavy training load. And then you're sort of like, well, now I'm doing both of them poorly. Like, I don't know which is better. I'm not really recovering and I'm not really double training. And then baby number two shows up kind of soon. And so then you're just, I'm just gonna assume that that's not gonna help. You're not doing either again. Yeah, exactly. Bui in a way, I mean, I'm not that stressed because I know long term, like this time next year, I'll probably be climbing pretty well and, and, or at least climbing the same. Like I'm, I'm not too stressed in the long term, but it's just slightly frustrating when you want to, when you feel like you could be doing better and you're not sure why, why you're not there.

So in a, in a year and a half, two years, you'll be, you'll be 40, right?

Yeah. So I'm 38, so yeah, in two.

Years you'll have a, a two-year-old and a four-year-old essentially, maybe another, I don't know. But you'll have at least two-year-old, four-year-old.

Yeah, yeah, we'll have two daughters.

And you will have lived 40 years of your life and you will have accomplished so many incredible things that most climbers will never accomplish, ever. What do you feel like the next 10 years will be if you could go into the future and think about the vision you might have? What do you see your life looking like?

I think this is, I mean, this is an interesting question and I've been thinking about this a little bit because I think it's an, I mean, I want to keep doing things that I'm proud of in climbing and partially because I want my daughters to know someone who's proud of the things that they're doing and not proud of the things that they did. You know what I mean? It's like kind of a subtle distinction. Interesting. But I don't want my daughters growing up with somebody who's like, oh, I used to do all these cool things as opposed to, like, I want them growing up with somebody who's excited to do cool things in the future and is like working on projects. because I think that kind of motivation, that excitement to like work on projects and like get up early and train and like have things that you're passionate about. I mean, I think that's important. Yeah. And that's certainly something that I'd love to pass on to my kids in like a healthy way, not like a psycho pushing them away. Sure. But like in a way for them to see someone who's fired up and like living their best life. And so, you know, I mean, I am very proud of all the things that I've done, but I think it's important to have just as many things that I want to do in the future because I think I think that's hopefully part of parenting, you know, like within reason. Like I don't need something all encompassing like OCAP let's say, because that would probably take me away from family too much. But I can have goals that I am passionate about that I try very hard for and that I can still be around my family and not forget.

Sure. Do you have anything on your mind of what that will look like?

Not, I don't know, nothing big right now. I mean this year I have a couple sort of like climbing travel, like destination goals where like my family and I will go to a place and climb for a while. But they aren't like objectives in terms of performance, it's more like to a place together and like have a good time climbing. Yeah, yeah. Like hopefully be able to do something cool while I'm in the places, but.

It'S not like, it's not the main goal.

Not performance thing, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, so in some ways I see this as sort of an in-between year. I mean, and also in the big picture, if I'm kind of like, oh, the five year, the first five years of my children's life, I was a little underproductive as a climber. I'm like, that doesn't seem crazy. Yeah. Like that's fine. as long as I think that I can come out of that again at some point. Like, if you just told me, you know, you will underperform for five years while you raise your kids at the beginning, I'd be like, that's totally fine. It'd be like going to college or something. We're like, okay, well, I'm going through this phase of life because I know it'll set me up better for the future. Like, because I know I want a family long term. Yeah. But I just want to know that.

I'll be okay again eventually. Yeah, and you could go back and.

Do these things again. Like, I don't mind the grinding and training and like all that stuff if I think that eventually it'll pay off or like it'll work. You know, but I think that the challenge is when you start second guessing like, is this the wrong path? Like, am I doing this all wrong? This is a waste of my time.

Tell me about the Arctic Ascent because the trailer of this thing is just blew me away. Tell me what the expedition is was and, you know, what we should look forward to as we watch this series.

Arctic Sun is a three-part series on National Geographic. It comes out kind of soon. And it was an expedition to Greenland, a six-week trip to Greenland to a remote part of eastern Greenland. And it's sort of an interesting combination of climbing adventure. We went and we climbed these two cool walls, one of which was a 4,000-foot sea cliff, like sticking straight out of the ocean.

It was kind of insane. So you have to take a boat.

To get to the actual- Yeah, boat to the base. You hop out of the boat and then you climb 4,000 feet straight out of the Sword. It's pretty cool. That's crazy.

Yeah.

I've never done anything like that either. It was. How cold is it? It's pretty freaking chilly. It was a north facing wall in.

Greenland, so it wasn't warm.

Winds are just blown up against you. The waves are crashing against the wall. Well, the waves are crashing against the wall. 4, 000 feet below you.

That's crazy, man.

Yeah, it's really far. Yes.

It's, like, bigger in El Cap. Bigger than, you know, it's a big, big wall.

So no one had ever climbed it. Not that wall now, which is. Yeah, it's pretty. That was part of the excitement for.

You to go try something that no one had ever tried.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's probably one of the biggest unclimbed rock walls in the world like that, because there aren't that many 4,000-foot vertical walls. But, as you can imagine.

So, I mean, how do you prepare mentally and emotionally for something that you've never done and no one else has ever done?

Well, I have done a lot of other first ascents, and I have climbed a lot of other mountains, and I've climbed things of similar size and scale in different places. And so, you know, it's true that it's the first ascent nobody's ever climbed that rock. And as it turns out, that rock posed some unique challenges that I'd never quite encountered before. I had like this crazy swirly rock that varied in quality and it was actually, turned out it was pretty hard. But, you know, you just draw on all your experiences having done other things that are somewhat similar. And in that case, you also have a team. And so you're also drawing on the experiences of the team. and the team members were also incredibly skilled professional climbers. And so, you know, between everybody, you assume that somebody has what it takes. Wow. Or at least the team has what it takes.

Do you think you could do it with alone without, I mean, maybe having the support of people with ropes or whatever, but without other rock climber professionals kind of coaching and working with you, could you have done it alone?

Maybe, but it'd be harder and it'd be less fun and it it wouldn't be the experience that you want necessarily. It would be a lot harder because sharing the psychological burden is a big part of it. Really? Because when you're looking up at a 4,000 foot wall and you're not sure if it goes, every move is uncertain. We're like, am I going the right way? Am I? And so it's nice to be able to share that uncertainty with other people and let them think about it a little bit, let them make some decisions, trust them to take the lead for a while and just take the rope.

Up higher and then you can take over she'll pass the lead is what you're saying.

Yeah, you alternate leads and so it allows you to relax while the other person is leading. And they'll- In this case, on that particular climb, I was mostly climbing with this woman, Hazel Finlay, who's a British climber, who's a professional climber, very, very good at that kind of thing. And so whenever she's leading, it allows me to totally relax and sort of recover and eat and drink and chill. Really? And she's incredibly stressed because she's leading.

And trying to figure out how to stay safe and where we should go.

And like what direction But while she's stressing, you can just sit down there being like, ah, really?

Yeah, you're hooked in. You're just kind of dangling?

Yeah, I'm hooked in and I'm feeding the rope out to her. I'm belaying, I'm holding on to the rope. So I'm protecting her. But I'm also sort of eating, drinking, and relaxing. And then just like watching the icebergs go by in the fjord. It's like you're just chilling. Because the thing is, as soon as she finishes her section of the climb and secures the rope, then she brings you up, and then it's your turn to lead again. Oh, man. And then when you're leading, it's suddenly stressful because you're like, Should I go left? Should I go right? left looks more dangerous, but right looks like it might get blank and then we'd have to backtrack and you're constantly making all these route finding decisions of which way looks harder, which way looks easier, but you're always dealing with incomplete set of information because no one's been there, so nobody knows. So you look up and you're like.

Well, it looks easy, but what if it isn't? Then you're screwed. Wow.

How long did that whole climb take? Well, that particular 4,000 foot wall only took It took 10 days or so of the trip, but that's partially because we were just sort of cramming it in at the end.

We had already- so it was climbing.

And took 10 days? No, like we pushed the ropes higher up and it rained a lot and it was crazy and then the final ascent took us two days, but it's.

Because we'd already gone halfway up the.

Wall and so it was- so you.

Were sleeping on the wall?

Yeah, yeah, sleeping on the wall. So you were on the wall for 10 days? No, we were at a base camp like nearby. Okay. And then we were on the wall for two.

Okay, gotcha.

Like we'd been pushing higher and higher up the wall and then finally like we did the whole thing in two days. So you'd push up then come back down? Yeah, exactly.

Base camp, push a little higher.

And part of that's the nature of filming and everything to make a TV show is that you kind of have to do things like that to make sure that the camera people can be in position and things. Wow. But that trip, though, was a six-week expedition and we'd climb this other wall where we also camped on the wall. And we ski traversed across this ice cap and we did a bunch of science. And I mean, when you're talking about, you know, purpose and things like that, I mean, in some ways this expedition is exactly that evolution. because we had this scientist Heidi Sylvester who's amazing. She's this really passionate glaciologist. She's French. And so she was there doing a bunch of science experiments for different universities around the world, basically all sort of climate science, like glaciology related, because Greenland is one of the most important places in the world for climate change. And that's the kind of thing that makes a trip like that feel a little bit more worthwhile.

It's not just you going after some adventure, but it's you working on research that you care about.

Yeah, well, and working on something that actually matters for the world. You know, it's like I can make a show where it's like, oh, we're just climbing this extreme rock. And you're like, that's cool. But realistically, I'd rather just do that by myself and not make a show about it. You know, it's like if you're gonna put something on television, it may as well be somewhat useful. And it may as well, you know, highlight important parts of the world and bring knowledge around things that matter. And so, you know, the Greenland ice sheet is melting. The ice sheet is the big part in the middle. Like when you look at a map of Greenland, it's like the whole center of Greenland is ice. And if the Greenland ice sheet melts, you know, raises sea levels by something like 20 feet, which affects hundreds of million people around the world. It's like, you know, half the major cities in the world are on the coast. It's like, you know, New York and London and Tokyo, like all these places go underwater. Buenos Aires, I don't know. And so, but nobody thinks about Greenland, you know, like nobody thinks about the Greenland ice sheet. Not many people live there, too.

Yeah, nobody lives there. I mean, in Greenland, some people live.

On the- yeah, but even in Greenland, like so few people live in Greenland. And so, you know, I think that in some ways that makes a trip like that feel a lot more worthwhile. Wow, that's cool.

And that's part of your foundation, too, right?

Well, the work my foundation is doing is unrelated to something like this expedition. But yeah, I have a foundation that supports solar projects around the world and has been doing so for the last decade or so. Wow, that's cool.

What made you want to get into that? Same idea, just trying to do something useful.

Yeah. You know, just feeling like climbing is fun and I love doing it, but ultimately climbing is just for you or, you know, just for me. It's like a selfish endeavor in some sense.

Yeah, yeah. Or it's a personal, like, yeah, people.

Always say climbing is selfish, like climbers like to say, oh, climbing is selfish. And I don't really love that because it's like any human activity is sort of selfish way. Sure, sure. Or most human activities are. But yeah, climbing is generally a self-driven pursuit.

Mm-.

And it's nice to do something slightly more useful in the world. Yeah. With the foundation, it kind of came about because, you know, and I'm sure you can relate to being given all kinds of interesting opportunities that are fun and you don't want to turn them down, but you also don't totally need them because your livelihood is already made. I was living in a van. I'm totally comfortable. I'm doing the things I want to do. I'm having a great time. I'm living my best life. And if somebody offers you like a TV commercial thing and you're like, I'd like to do it. It's fun. It's crazy money for like doing almost no work. But you're kind of like, why do that if you don't need to? And the foundation was a nice way to say yes to the fun opportunities, but then use that for something useful in the world. That's cool.

And so, how long were you living in the van for?

Uh, like 15 years or something.

15 years living in the van.

I lived in this really small Ford Econoline for, like a van you can't stand up in for nine years, I think. And then I lived in a Dodge Promaster for another five-ish or six-ish.

How much was those two cars? How much did they cost?

Yeah. The first one I think was, I think it was 10 grand. 10 grand. You lived in that for nine years?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. Wow.

That was crazy. And then the first one, I went through three different build-outs in it. And the first build-out my uncle and I did with random wood he had around a shop that was just left over. So literally the van cost, you know, yeah, 10 grand. And then I lived in it for several years. And then I redid the interior a couple times as I got a little more money.

Wow, yeah, you got a couple dollars here and there.

Exactly. Yeah, so I spent another like five grand redoing the interior. Oh, yeah, yeah. It was big, big money. And then the second time I splurged buying a new Promaster van that I could stand in.

Nice with like a little like faucet.

Or like a bathroom. Well, yeah, so the van was just new and nice and that was like 30K or something. And then the build out was probably.

I don't know, another 10 or 20.

So how long did you live in that one? Another five or six years. Wow. And then that one I would have kept living in, but I actually crashed sadly, I rolled it. It was a total botch. And then, but then coincidentally we found out that my wife was pregnant right after that. So we were kind of like, well, we need something different anyway because it doesn't have any seats.

So what'd you get a bus?

No. Now we know we have a longer van.

A longer van?

Yeah, still like a van that you can camp in.

But with your daughter?

Yeah, yeah, we've camped with her several months.

Do you live in the van still.

Or do you... No, we live in a house. now we go to Yosemite for a month or two every year and with the family, with the babies. So you've upgraded to a house?

Yeah, I live in a house.

And then also we've upgraded the van. And yeah, both. Now it has kids seats. So 15 years, man.

In a van almost.

Yeah.

For by choice, 'cause you were like, I want to be able to travel, I want to be remote, I don't want to have a lot of possessions.

Yeah, maybe it was like 12 or 13 really like in the van, 'cause we bought the house It's been a steady transition where we're in the house more. I mean, especially with kids now, we're in the house more. Yeah, that's true. I wouldn't be surprised if as the kids grow up a little bit, we can be in the van more again. That's cool, man. But having infants, it's like, it's just.

Having the routine and nap time is just easier with a house.

Yeah. What's the greatest lesson you learned living in a van for 12 years? That you just don't need that much stuff. I mean, I think that's the main thing. It's like, you just don't need stuff. I mean, you want to do whatever you want to do in your life. Just focus on doing that thing and you don't need any of the extra stuff. I mean, I still have that problem with my wife all the time because she has decorations and things. I'm like, why does this exist? What is this? A throw pillow?

We don't need it.

It's called a throw pillow because you throw it in the trash. You don't use it for anything. Decorative pillows drive me insane. Stuff that doesn't have any function No value. Not even as value, but if you don't use it all the time, like I just don't want to be a slave to my stuff. Like you don't want to be like moving your stuff around. You know, the thing about living in a van is that you have very few things and it's all the stuff that you need. Like it's only in the van because you use it all the time.

You spend your time on the things you want to do and not, I guess, managing things and stuff.

Yeah. It's just like a simpler lifestyle that's devoted entirely to the thing that you want to do. to do. I mean, the thing with being in a van is that it is fundamentally uncomfortable. You don't have a shower, you don't have a bathroom, you don't have whatever. And so it is harder living. It's colder, you're more exposed to the elements. It's like you're living in a box parked on the side of the road a lot of the time. So it's not that comfortable, but it means that you're totally focused on whatever you're in the van for. It's either you're there to go hiking or they go back running. In my case, I'm always there to go climbing, but it's like you're there to climb. So you You know, like on rest days you go scrambling because it's like there's not that much to do in your van. Right, right. It's like you just wind up being totally focused on the thing that you're doing.

Wow.

That's cool, man.

It's a cool lifestyle.

It's a very intentional lifestyle. And I think that kind of intention can be brought to normal life.

Absolutely, yeah. Well, we can watch the show. It's Nat Geo launching February 4th on Disney+, right? Arctic Ascent. with Alex Honnold. And I'm excited for this, man. The trailer again looks incredible. So congrats on this. It's going to be a lot of fun. How else can we support you or follow you besides checking out the show and checking out your foundation?

Yeah, I mean, you can go to honnoldfoundation.org, see the work that my foundation is doing with solar projects around the world. Anybody can follow me on any social platform, just Alex Honnold.

I've got a couple of final questions for you, but this has been inspiring, so I appreciate your time, Alex. This is a question I ask everyone at the end of my interviews called the Three Truths. It's a hypothetical question. Imagine you get to live as long as you want to live, but it's the last day. You've accomplished everything, you've experienced life, you've learned to share words of affirmation with your wife eventually.

All of them to 750.

Exactly.

It's taken a while.

Everything you want to create you know, you've lived a great life from this moment until the end of time. But it's the last day for you and for whatever reason, you have to take everything you've ever created with you. So this interview is gone. The books you write, the movies you've been in, anything, all the social media posts that you love putting out there, they're gone. However, you do get to leave behind three things. Three lessons that you leave to the world. I like to call it three truths. What would those three truths be for you? you, do you think?

Man, this is all we would have.

To remember you by.

I just don't, I think, I think if I was at the end of my life and I was content, I would just go, I don't know if I'd have any truths. So I think if you wipe the rest of the slate clean, it's just like, I just don't think that, I mean, to me, I think that the.

Whole, but if people had, they wanted to remember you by something and they could only remember three things that you learned and experienced and you were able to share those what would those three things be, do you think?

I would just go big with an exclamation. I use that as a, I sign things that way whenever you have to like sign things at events. But it's kind of also one of my favorite things now, just go big and just like go for it. You know, you can sort of take whatever lesson you want from it, but it's like do the thing, you know, like try. But I think that also that just sums up so much of my scene, just go big.

Go big. Go big. One truth.

Yeah, that's my one truth.

Go big. Okay.

I kind of think so because I just think to get into other truths requires too much nuance and subtlety in the richness of a life. And I just don't know if you can distill that down to it. Just be like, if everything else is being wiped, you just step away, you're just gone. That's fine. But this goes back to everyone's replaceable. I'm like, if my whole life gets erased, there'll be somebody else leading an awesome life. You know, like all the things that I've learned from climbing, somebody else could learn from unicycling or whatever other activity. You know, it's like, I think that human lives in many ways are sort of interchangeable. You know, like we can all learn how to lead good lives in different ways. You know, like somebody can devote their entire life to their garden and still learn all the same things that I have in my life about like experiencing hardship and trying hard and like overcoming and persevering. like anybody can learn that however. Yeah. Sort of like, I don't know.

What would be one extra thing you would leave behind for your daughters? If you could share a truth with them.

Daddy loves you. It's my, I don't know. I think that's probably the, I mean if you're gonna leave your child one thing, that's probably the most important thing. Like you are loved, I guess.

That's beautiful, man. That's a good one.

I'll see.

That's beautiful, man.

We'll see if I can manage that when, when the time comes.

Oh, man, that's beautiful. Before I ask the final question, Alex, I want to acknowledge you, man, for what a life you have lived and an intentional life on the things that you wanted to pursue and are still pursuing. But again, living a life in a van, essentially for 12, 13 years, very intentional. to pursue something you care about the most. I just want to acknowledge you for going big, like going for it and consistently going for it. But I also want to acknowledge you for allowing yourself to evolve at this new season of life. You know, having kids, raising a family, being in a relationship, and allowing yourself to also evolve. Like you've been going big, but you're also evolving with it as well. And I think it's really inspiring that people can both love in their lives, relationships, but also be pursuing their dreams at the highest level, even if no one else has done that. So it's really cool what you've done. And I just want to acknowledge you for that. For this moment, of course.

That's something actually that my wife has always pushed. There's this false contrast between doing rad things and being in a good relationship, which I think you're often portrayed that way in media is like you can either be alone doing something rad, or you can be in a happy relationship. My wife is always like, why don't you do the rad thing in a happy relationship? And basically from the very beginning of our relationship, she's always kind of been steadfast and like, why don't you just do something hard while being well-adjusted in a good relationship? And it's funny because until we got together, I was like, Is that an option? I kind of thought you needed the angst and the turmoil and the like... Suffering. Yeah, exactly. Loneliness. Yeah, the dark. the dark artist. And now being with her, I'm like, oh yeah, okay. I guess you can actually just have a really nice life and still do hard things, but just do it with a big smile. I'm like, it is kind of a better way to go.

It's a way better way to go and support and friendship and collaboration and all that stuff. Final question, Alex, what's your definition of greatness?

I mean, I think I'd just go with this sort of standard definition of like doing hard things. achieving things I haven't done before. And I mean, I know that I should take a more inclusive, you know, just like living a good life and all that, but I'm like, no, I think of greatness as doing something challenging.

That hasn't been done before. I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me, as well as ad-free listening, listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple Podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com/newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.