Break Your Limitations, Reinvent Yourself & Become A Champion w/ Phil Heath EP 1272

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You're a Salesman of the Year. Why can't you do that next year? Oh, why can't you be straight A's every semester? Once you hit that champion level, that becomes your new standard. Everything else is zero. Now everybody else will look up to you, but you should be looking welcome.

To the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur, and each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

I never saw models of men opening up showing that it could be vulnerable to talk about healing and that hey, actually I did go through some pain or some challenges and it sucked. You know, right?

Just to say that part.

Yeah, it's hard.

You get grown men later on that we've seen in their 50s, if 60s then shedding a tear over it. To me it's almost too late doing that because imagine, I guess the way I look at it is like my father passed eight years ago at 64. So what I'm thinking is, grew up in Dallas, Fort Worth. So you got to think back then. Tough, tough, you know, no crying, no nothing. I'm trying to think. I only saw that man cry maybe once. And it wasn't like a boo hoo, right? It was just like a tear, like, watery eye. But I remember my girl Cherie said, let's go see a spiritual medium. I was like, nah, I don't believe in this stuff. And just like, if she's prophetic, all right, cool, we'll do it. But I went to a lady prior to her just to do, like, some energy work, some breathing and all that stuff. They did, like, this tapping technique and stuff. Next thing you know, I'm like, boohooing.

You're crying, you're bawling, I'm balling. They're just doing some little tapping, energy work.

Yeah. And she's like. And she could sense it. She could sense, like, oh, don't worry, I'm prophetic. Like, your dad is okay. Like, he says, it wasn't about you.

Wow.

But you need to let this go. You were a good son. So now it's just like, water works, right?

Oh, my gosh.

Now I'm thinking of, like, when he and my mom split and I was only like three. Like two and a half, three. And he didn't show up for certain things. He only showed up for my birthday. I will give him that. Like, he always did and certain other events. But there was a lot of times that he was supposed to and didn't. And I held on to that like I wasn't good enough. So that anger, that frustration, like, why am I not good enough? Like, now I'm seeking that in other people in all the wrong places and stuff like that. When really it was just. I just wanted it from him. And essentially I had to put like a. I was instructed to visualize what that weight felt like on my chest. And I pictured an anvil sitting on my chest.

When was this? When you were.

This was like, I want to say, four years ago, five years ago.

So this whole time, or just looking back, how did that feel? Like at that stage, at that time.

When I'm laying down and I'm listening to this woman speak on this, and I'm doing this tapping technique and all that stuff, and I'm envisioning an anvil sitting on my chest, and I have to pull this away from me and now hand it to him.

Holy cow.

So I envisioned handing it to him, because this was not for me to hold. This was his stuff. This was his generational trauma that came into my life. We share DNA. We shared some experiences, but not this. I created that negative belief in my own head based on some experiences that I had that weren't true. He loved me, right. I was his first son. He had another one with another woman who, you know, I loved dearly, and I have a brother from it. But at that time, you know, I'm laying down, I'm like, no, I. I must give this to you, dad. So it allowed me to be at peace with it because I was already at peace. Like, when I was seeing him off, I would visit in Seattle where he was, you know, in the hospital before he passed. Before he passed, I made sure, like, in he. He actually passed away. I've told this story a few times. I was actually guest posing at Dave Lieberman show in Cleveland. Really? And I was guest posing. I get off stage, find out on the phone as I'm going to meet with some fans to do a VIP.

Event that he passed.

Wow. Yeah. But it was cool, though, because I realized, like, no more pain. He's good. I get to go spend time with these other people, make it about them. It ain't about me. Make it about them. Give them a really good experience. But I always look at it now, like, even going from that part of dealing with early childhood and being an adult, life has no rehearsal. We talked about this, but make that your message, man, and know that you're not alone. Everybody's lost a parent or will and. Or loved one, and it is how we process these things.

Yes.

And as far as a lot of men like myself who grew up without their biological father present constantly, I admire guys like Tony Rollins. I mean, talk about a man that had to endure those different things. He had it way different than I did. In fact, I think it was worse. But he made that mess into a message. So I think it's very encouraging to have the conversations like what we're doing so that we know that we're not alone. We can express ourselves and we can still be strong.

Right.

Crying is not weak. It may be leaving your body so you can just hone in on, wow, like, this is a really cool experience. What does this mean? Why. Where are these tears really coming from? Why did I think like that and really dissect our thought process at 12, 15, 30?

Yes.

So then we don't bring that into a relationship. Because I'm sure as hell I know I probably messed up in A relationship or two, whether it be guy or girl, because of some generational trauma that I didn't deal with.

Because I carried that with you.

Yeah. Because we don't have the emotional intelligence. Maybe because our parents were too busy trying to make a living, trying to take us to school or whatever just to try to keep a home together and let us figure out life on our own. That was me. I was a, you know, I had a key to a house at 10 years old. Most my parents worked non stop. So you know, I didn't have a school bus, I didn't have. I was an only child so I had to deal with a lot of things on my own, but I didn't, I dealt with school and sports.

Right. Did you cry a lot as a kid then when, you know, just going through the confusion of being with your mom by yourself and not having your dad or, you know.

I was fortunate for her to get remarried very early to a man who was in his own right, very successful. We weren't rich or anything like that, but he was very hard worker, very mature. He didn't speak a lot, he just acted. So I was able to play life with my eyes not by what he said but what he did. And same with my mom. They didn't really sit me down and say, well this is how you're supposed to live life. It was just like we're too busy working and you'll figure this out kid. You go to school to go figure this stuff out. They put the belief in them. But no very hard working people. That I definitely developed a work ethic from. I mean my mom would get up at like 4:45, 5 in the morning. I'd hear on the treadmill, I'd hear her doing those. Remember those old school ESPN body shaping.

Sure.

With Gilad.

Sure, sure. Wow.

She would do that. So I understood that getting up early was important for her to go to work by 6:30am so for me to get up to go to school was like she didn't have to wake me up because I wanted to be up. And I always hear on that treadmill working.

Inspiring.

Yeah. So I think sometimes kids do actually I think all the time. Kids look at their parents, see their habits.

What was the biggest lesson your mom taught you?

Like your car, you must take care of it so it could take care of you. But your body's the same. So her getting up in the morning taking care of herself allows her to go deal with. She worked at Cargo in Cargo Services for a company called Sealand back In the day that got acquired by CSX Lines logistics company that later got acquired by Matson.

Okay.

So she was always. When you talk about, you know, the hardest worker in the room, I mean, that was her. Wow. To be an upper level management through a couple acquisitions and stuff like that. You know, being a black woman during that time, probably wasn't heard of for her to have that type of role of telling people, especially longshoremen, what to do.

Sure.

A lot of guys don't want to hear direction from any woman, you know, let alone someone that don't look like them. So I learned a lot of work ethic from her. And also my stepdad, I mean, and my real dad too. I mean, they always. They were never unemployed. They were always. They came from that era where you just worked your butt off and you didn't complain. So I never really saw them complain. They may have done it, but I didn't see it. They didn't see excuses, so how could I produce any?

So your father was kind of in and out. He was there for birthdays and some events, but he wasn't consistent.

Is that right?

Where do you think you'd be if you had this like, loving father that stayed with your mom for your whole childhood? Where do you think your life would be?

Honestly, I think it would have been effed up.

Really?

Yeah.

Because I think with two loving parents.

Staying together, I think they loved each other enough to have me, but I think they just weren't compatible. I just don't think they were compatible. As I got older, I realized this. My dad. See, I almost thought that my dad was kind of villainized, but I think he was just dealing with shame that he wasn't able to do both. He wasn't able to be a great husband and a great father. He could do one or the other. He didn't mistreat me or anything like that. He probably mistreated my mom at some point. Whatever. They just had disagreement. Maybe not. I don't think they knew how to communicate.

Sure.

I honestly don't feel like they knew how to communicate. I think when I look at pictures of them both, I mean, it was just like most gorgeous couple. Wow. And it does make me think like, what if? But I don't think, you know, with.

Why do you think he would have been messed up though?

Because he was dealing with alcoholism, but he was a binge drinker, so I mean, it was more like he would binge drink. But I'm assuming it was because he lost his mother very young and he didn't have the ability to communicate through that because he didn't have time. His father was raising four kids by himself and that was unheard of.

You couldn't heal or express your emotion.

It was a process. It was just like, dad's got stuff to do, son. You need to go to work, you know, go to school, whatever. Be somebody. So he had four kids to raise. Right. So my dad probably just. Yeah, he didn't have a stepmom. He didn't marry like that.

In one of your videos, you were talking about recently about not having a chip on your shoulder to prove others wrong, but instead being focused on your mission, your vision, your goals, and proving yourself right. Were you always in that mindset growing up, or did you think, I'm going to prove everyone else wrong about me? When you were building yourself up in and out. Yeah.

There's some moments where you're like, I just want to blend in with the. With my friends. Because I grew up short. So I remember not making a basketball team one time and I'm like, but I just want to play with my friends.

Yeah.

So well, I'm going to get better. So that fueled me. And then when someone would tell me no, I'm like, oh, I'll show you. Oh, I will show you. Or even if I didn't get a good grade on an exam, I remember going to, I mean, this happened in high school. This also happened in college. If I didn't like the grade I got, I would literally go back with that scantron sheet and say, I want to redo this right now. No way. Oh, hell yeah.

Scantrons were Scantrons, bro. That was the death of me.

Right, right, yeah. Hanging in the bubble. Bubble, yeah. Yeah. And I still recall like a time like in college where I was doing a business law class and the professor was like, if you don't like the grade, you can arm wrestle me for it. So he was a 77 year old man. He was just talking trash. So I knew this, this was not the grade that I deserved. And I believe that he had like the wrong answer key. And he did, but we had to argue about it. So he was like, no, just take it again. I said, but use the answer key. Right. I think he just wanted me to work for it. I was cool about it. I said, how about this? I'll do the test right in front of you right now. Give me 20 minutes, I'll get this done.

Wow.

It took an hour, but I'll get it done in 20 minutes. Because I got Practice here soon. I will get this done in 20 minutes, but I guarantee you, you can give me the B test. Here's the A test. Use the correct answer key on that one. We'll compare pretty much same score, but it wasn't that D. It was actually B plus. So I'm like. And he was like, oh, get the hell out of here. But it was good because I was just always competitive. If I didn't like something, I would change it. If I didn't like what my coach said, I would say, well, what can I do to improve?

And where do you think that mindset came from?

Just growing up, man. I mean, growing up in, you know, south end of Seattle, we weren't. We didn't have a whole lot. Violence was everywhere. I mean, just like any other inner city, you know, I just knew that in order for me to get out and I just want to be something, Be something where, like, my community would be like, we're proud of that guy.

Wow.

Yeah, that's cool. Guns, violence, you know, gangs and stuff was very prevalent. He didn't do that, but he didn't do that. He might have looked like a square, but deep down we knew that. We were just trying to pull him down because, you know, why wouldn't we? Just so he could screw up, too. Misery loves company. But eventually, those same people that were screwing up was like, nah, don't mess with him. Be somebody. He's doing something. He's doing something greater. That kid, student body vice president and captain of the track team and basketball team. He's all state. Leave him alone. Don't do this. Don't do that to him. Like the OGs would say this, that's cool. I'm, like, happy about that.

That's cool.

I got protected and it all mattered because I did do something with it, you know, I did go to college, and, you know, that helped a lot of other young men and women in my area to do the same. So I think sometimes it's all proximity, you know?

Sure.

So when you don't see people, you know, living in a nice house, you don't think you could have one, or driving a nice car, going on vacations, using a passport until you actually know someone that did get a college scholarship. All I heard was junior college.

Right.

All I heard was juco, you know, and when I went D1, then more people went D1. I'm not saying that was because of me. I'm just saying I know that that helped.

Absolutely.

Open up someone else's eyes. Sure. So it was very important for me to try to be a trailblazer in my own right, take care of my own stuff, then go back to that same area and say, guys, this is pretty easy. As long as you don't screw up. Right? You know, there's a lot of things that are gonna pull at you, but if you could just do this. Focus, focus, hyper focus. And still. Look, we all have friends that were doing wrong, doing some real wrong.

Yeah.

Still be cool with them. Just don't hang with them. Just. We were talking about discernment. No, that guy's about to do something stupid.

Don't hang out right now.

Just don't hang out right now.

Yeah, yeah.

Holler at him, like during lunchtime. You know what I mean?

Exactly.

You're not gonna. No. He about to go route, that 7 11. He about to do something ignorant. He's about to stay out a little too late, go home. And you gotta do that even when you're in business, in athletics, both. When you start getting some fame, some notoriety, head starts to get big. Head starts to get real big. Oh, he's making some money now. Oh, people know his name. Oh, you start getting invited to parties and stuff like that. And then you start veering off, start losing focus. So for me, it was always like, how disciplined can I be? Because I know in life that's the only way. And I'm going to fail, I'm going to sin, I'm going to make mistakes. But how expensive is this choice I'm about to make?

Right? Because you're going to pay, man.

Is it little expensive like a parking ticket? Or is it a dui, Right, or vehicular homicide, Something like that, you know, like choices and consequences is something that I always play in my head. We got choices and we definitely got consequences. And I think the more kids understand that, and even adults, like, we have to know that too, because a lot of people make stupid decisions. Absolutely. We're. We're flawed. And we get our information from people that maybe not have our best interest. We have to use better discernment and realize this choice. This isn't a really calculated choice here, man. This could put me in jail or this could hurt someone. Then ask myself, why am I making this choice right now? Is this for my own ego?

What was the biggest choice you made? The biggest, let's say, mistake you made that could have led to something much worse for yourself that woke you up to saying, I got to stay more focused, whether it was in high school or college or while you were you know, doing Mr. Olympia stuff. Was there ever a time where you're like, oh, I almost did something really stupid that could have messed up the.

Rest of my life.

When I wasn't playing in college, I happened to get really suicidal. Really? Yeah.

Why is that?

Because I felt like I was owed something. You know, here's a guide that was recruited by much bigger schools, goes to a smaller school because he felt like he could be the man. Going to a big D1 school, you're, you know.

Yeah. You're sitting on a bench.

Yeah, I'm five nine, I could dunk, I could do all that cool stuff. But five nine, playing D1, I mean, let's go to a smaller D1. Let's be the man. And is because I had played my senior year with a pro, I played with Jamal Crawford. So I knew he was going to go bigger places. And I'm like, I'm not that good. I'm good, but like that good to where I could go to a major like Big Ten, Big 12, you know, ACC NX and play. Oh, no, I just didn't see that. So I thought, well, let's just go to the smaller school. Everything will work out great. And it didn't. And you know, coaches do what they want to do. I mean, at the end of the day, they can play whoever they want. It's their job to put themselves in the best position to win. It's their job. And I just did not like how I was being talked to. I didn't like how I was being treated. I didn't like the fact that I was already being recruited by larger schools and I felt like I could have been playing somewhere else. And I trusted you, coach to you told my mama you recruited me. I didn't come to you like, hoping. You came to me saying, you're gonna get playing time.

Role player.

Yeah. And then now, you know, imagine an 18 year old, 19 year old kid. You know, you go into, you go in the game, you're all excited, you're thinking, I just need to get my name in that book. Hit a couple threes and you get benched. And you're like, why am I getting benched? Well, that's all we need you for. I'm like, but I could do more. I've been practicing for this. What the hell? And then they tell you, oh, just keep coming back, just keep coming back. And then you keep coming back.

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And then when you do, you don't have game reps and you know, game reps now you're not playing as good. So then it kind of justifies why they're.

They throw you in for two minutes and expect you to be an all star.

You're like that.

Yeah, so I just, yeah.

So I started while everybody else went to the dorm or their college house, I put my sweats on and went and went for a long run. Really. That's where I cried my eyes out the most. And then next thing you know, I started laying out in the streets, like laying in the medians and stuff, hoping that someone just ended. Really freaking awe. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's really, you know, mental health is a big deal and we're talking about this. You know, earlier I didn't feel like I had anyone to talk to. I was very embarrassed that I even had those thoughts. And like I said, I was 20, maybe 21, so I didn't really understand how to communicate. Just dealing with the shame, man. All I wanted to do was play. Now I'm watching other friends of mine playing. Different schools grew up in the same hood. They had it worse than I did. And they're.

You're better than them. Yeah.

And then I'm just thinking, man, this ain't working out, you know, And I realized I put my identity into a game that I shouldn't have done. I didn't look at the bigger picture. But then I realized when, you know, obviously I lived, I had to really think about what God is saying. It's like, this is not the way. I got something bigger for you. I didn't know what that was. I didn't know what that was. But I knew the disappointment that my parents would have if they read about me in a newspaper. My real friends, how they would feel. But then most importantly, I'm like, how Many times has God saved you from a really bad situation? And then I had to sit there in my room and actually think about that and say, why would you punk out like this right now? You're gonna be out of this game soon. Do you really think that this is it? Or do you think you have something else to live for? But I didn't have any certainty of what I was gonna do in the world because you gotta think 9, 11 just happened as well. Like, those.com jobs gone. So I'm in it. And in business, those jobs went from, like, first year out of college, like 68, 65, 68,000, low 40s. I'm like, I can go be a adjunct professor, go get an MBA and make ends meet. I could, you know, do something. I was putting money to it, you know, I was like, this is not adding up.

And you weren't gonna go play professional basketball.

Basketball.

And I put. And I had to put some real science to it. I was like, okay, Phil, like, let's just be realistic. Write it down. Yeah, let's write this stuff down. You're gonna go play ball overseas. Okay, you do that for how long?

Five, ten grand a year?

Yeah. And then bring it back, get taxed, whatever. You'll be 28 years old with no job experience. The same people that you graduated college with will now be your boss. They'll be very senior, and they will probably punk you. So you. They'll be putting their thumb over you. So now you gotta work that corporate politic crap.

At 28.

At 28. Oh, so now you, now you're like, oh, what do I do? Oh, now you want to be a coach. Now you want to be an assistant. At 30 years old, you think you're going to find a wife. Now you got a kid. Now you have a mortgage. Now you have all this other stuff. I'll be 40, like, barely getting my feet wet in the college life. Is that something that I really dreamt about? No. Okay, then you need to start dreaming about something else. So I just was like, all right, let's just put one foot in front of the other, because life's coming at me a little too fast, man. And then, lo and behold, I found a guy sitting next to me in IT class that was viewing some images of bodybuilders and stuff. And I was asking him about it. So then he was like, hey, you just come to the student gym. I know you trained the varsity rate room. Just come to student gym. A lot of us compete. I didn't know what that Meant went to a couple of shows. Next, you know, I'm competing next, you know, I'm winning everything. Really?

How fast that happened?

Like, that was. That was like the spring of, like, so spring of O2, I was done.

You were 22, so.

Yeah, I was 22. That full calendar year. I was competing and you were winning. I was winning your first competition. First competition, I did a show in Boulder, Colorado. Won the novice and open overall. Just like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Did that.

How did that make you feel when you had that new kind of hobby? Did that turn into a dream right away, or was it more of like, this is just for fun to give me something to do right now?

It was something dope because I actually took a photograph on October 8, 2002. I've never shared this online, ever. It'll come out later. But I waited. I was still living in the basketball house, so I did five years of college. So during that fifth year, I was just completing those degrees and then got into bodybuilding. So I needed something physical, you know, to keep myself going. And from the October 8th point, I said, no more basketball. If you play, it's just screw around, but you're going to dive, really take a deep dive into this bodybuilding world. Wow. And six months later, I did a show, April 4, 2003, at the Boulder Theater. I happened to put on those little posing trunks, man, and you know, put the tan on, did all that and actually blew everybody out of the water. I mean, blew them away. Wow. And didn't know what the heck I was doing. I mean, I only learned from reading those flag magazines, Muscle and Fitness, and then a couple VHS tapes, and just went on a tear, was winning every amateur show. I turned pro two years later, winning the Mr. USA in Las Vegas. So I was Mr. USA in 2005, Mr. Colorado in 2004. And during that time I had met Jay Cutler, who was already competing. He was guest posing at my very first contest. And that following year, he guest posed again.

He was before you, right?

Yeah. He won his body.

He was before you?

Oh, yeah. He was much senior than I was, so he had believed in me pretty early on. And come 05, we were guest posing at the same show that I competed at my very first contest. And he pulled me aside. He was like, dude, like, you're doing the. You trying to go pro this year? Because I think you're gonna go pro easily. He's like, if I could help in any way, I was like, dude, like, that's. That'd be great. Get my name out to some sponsors, stuff like that. So sent him over some pictures. Next, you know, I'm flying to Cali, getting picked up by the senior editor of Flex magazine, Muscle and Fitness, Peter McGuff. Rest in Peace, Peter. But, yeah, he picked me up. Got to meet Joe. Joe Weider. Next. You know, I'm getting a contract. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I can get paid, right?

You're what, 25 now?

Yeah, I'm 25 when I turned pro. I'm 42 now. So at that time, I'm like, wait a minute, I have no money. And.

Yeah, how were you making money in those three years from college to. Oh, man, there was no working at Chipotle or something.

Right, right, right. No, I was working at a bally. Total Fitness. Okay.

Yeah. Training.

Personal training?

No, I was working retail. I was a retail manager. I was like, you know what? I want to learn how to run a store because I wanted to be in a gym because I already committed to being this bodybuilder. So I thought, well, where could I immerse myself into bodybuilding to be around me.

Yeah.

So. But where could I use my business acumen from college? Oh, running a store, you do the hiring, firing. You do all the ordering, you do all the, you know, the back end, you know, of like, what's on hand, what is it?

Yes.

And understand the profit margin, stuff like that. And you have to report to someone. So I thought, oh, this is really cool. I can learn a lot. I can move up in the ladder of this company. And I wasn't even thinking, like, oh, I'm going to turn pro, I'm going to make money, and all this other stuff.

Were thinking that.

No, I was just thinking, this is a way for me to pay for my hobby, learn a new skill. Then also, I was bouncing on the weekends. I was working security downtown Denver at a couple nightclubs. So I thought, well, this is easy. I get to work during the day and at night, but, you know, I'm single, so I'm like, I can meet girls at the gym, I can meet girls at the nightclub, and I get paid to hang out at both kind of.

Yeah.

So this all worked out all while, you know, I'm still, you know, reading these muscle magazines, but also books because we didn't really have the Internet the same way we do now. The information highway was a lot different, so you really had to immerse yourself differently. I mean, I would literally get up one day out of the month and drive over the Golden Colorado where they used to have the old EAS headquarters. I would wait out there because they would do an employee sale at their factory. Wow. Because I couldn't afford supplements. So I would wait outside, get it.

For 60, 70% off.

Oh, dude. Like those Mileplex Deluxe packages that used to be like five bucks. I get them for a dollar. So you think, like, okay, I could buy some, then I could sell them to Louis. Right. And then my money back. Yeah. So I was doing that, but that was a way for me to minimize my cost. But then also buy more tapes. Understanding, like the body biology, chemistry, all this other stuff. What are amino acids? What does that mean? Why should I ice over putting in heat? Like, and I already had these things go on already. Working in, you know, playing hoop, being on training table and stuff. Now I understand. Now I understand getting differently.

We were in the cold pool every day, man, Right? Yeah.

But we didn't know why. It was just like something that you do.

So it always felt good. Felt like you got a little pop back and, you know, you got a little bounce after that cold plunge, man. Every day, that whirlpool with like four.

Dudes just freezing 55 degrees. And then you get the person that just had the ice packs and then he poured the ice on it. Oh, no. But, you know, learn all those things and just having a willingness to learn new things. And not for me, it was not about the job title. It was about what I was going to learn and be the best at that. And then next thing you know, like I said, I was able to basically quit my two jobs focused solely on competitive bodybuilding.

What's the most you made in that first year of going pro?

So first you. Yeah, first full year. Oh, wow. Yeah. So first full year. So I turned pro. I didn't compete until that following year. So I was making like close to like 80 grand, which wasn't bad. And then after I won my pro debut, so I won my pro debut in the, in the show after that. So one of my first two pro shows, back to back weekends.

Wow.

And then I signed, not only I was already signed with Weider Health and Fitness, but they allowed me to just be exclusive with them on the publication side, even though they had nutritionals, but they were selling that part, so they allowed me to go get my own supplement.

That's cool.

So I was. I signed with metrics at that time, so I was making like collectively like a couple hundred grand.

Wow.

Like very early out. 25, 25, 26. Yeah, yeah, 25, 26 years old make a couple hundred grand, pretty big. And then one of the things I also did was when I had won my pro debut, I qualified for the Mr. Olympia. I didn't compete because I didn't feel like I was ready. Really? Yeah. So everybody would just throw their name, you know, in, like, after they compete, you know, after they get qualified. I was like, I am not in a hurry to get my whoop right now. I need to learn more. So I understood that the magazines just now started putting me on covers and stuff like that. How about I get myself in better shape and grow an audience? I can't grow an audience if I go to my first Mr. Olympia and get waxed. No, they're gonna expect that, though. Every rookie, you know, you're a rookie.

Try to get in top 10, right?

But top 10, you end up 20th. And I'm just not gonna be one of those guys that wants to be. Oh, I'm just happy to be here. The pressure I had, I'll be honest, was very big because I had to go to the Weider headquarters and actually tell Joe, Peter McGuff, Robin Chang, who was putting on the event, that I'm not doing it, but yet they're paying me, but they're not paying me to compete. But they are, right? And I just kept telling. I was like, just believe. Just believe in what I'm doing. And they're like, okay, you're crazy. Yeah. So then that was in 2006, 2007 comes around, I do the same thing again.

Two years you don't compete Mr. Olympia.

Now I'm getting called out by athletes saying, I'm scared, all this. I'm getting called out at the Mr. Olympia press conference. I'm just sitting there and they're just calling me out.

Because you're winning other competitions.

Yeah, I'm competing. And I'm like, I placed fifth at my first Arnold Classic, which qualified me for the Mr. Olympia. I went right ahead, went up to Frank Seppi, who was running the athletes over at Metrics at the time. I said, hey, is it cool that I take a year off and I do the Olympia? He was like, yeah, sure, no problem. He was like, yeah, but you gotta go tell Weeder now. Good luck with that. So I'm like, damn. So the second time, that's when the Internet became, you know, more prevalent, and I was not. That was not well received by fans, by, you know, people. But my coach and I, we believe that this was for longevity, this was for long.

Absolutely.

You know, like, I turned pro Very quick. Didn't mean I was an expert. So what I did do on the business side was we had a catalog, kind of like a yearbook called the NPC catalog. National Physique Committee catalog. Had all of the pictures throughout the year of different competitions. So if you want to scout other people or just look at shows, you know, like, oh, sure, this is before social media. But in the back pages, they had every competition in there for the calendar year, along with the promoter's name, email, and phone number. Guess what I did? Put out that pad of paper, start calling people up. Hey, Lewis, this is Phil Heath, 2005 Mr. USA, how you doing? Oh, you're doing great. All right, cool. I see you have a few events going on. Do you have any guest posers for those? Oh, you. Oh, you don't? Oh, great. I would like to provide my services for you. Fly in. I can pay for my own way, but, you know, do a flat fee of this, and if you happen to like it, I give you one week to come back and we'll do it again, same price. But if you wait past that, we're gonna have to renegotiate because my stock is probably gonna go up.

Wow.

And. Oh, you're not. Oh, okay, no problem. And click. Next one, next one, next one. So my goal was, how do I get more fans? There was no social media, so you had to wait for the magazines to come out. That took two, three months, right? How would they know? Yes. Go on a world tour. Go on a tour.

Yes.

So I did my own tour. I had no booking agent, no nothing. But I knew going through that catalog, I'm just going to cold call everybody. I'm just going to cold call them all, and at least those promoters are going to know who I am. They already knew because I was. I was that up and comer, up and coming. I won. I was on the COVID of Flex the night I turned pro, right? I mean, I was one of them. I like Kobe, the LeBron. I was that guy. But they need to also recognize the fact that I was business oriented and that I wanted to work. And, you know, sometimes I ain't too proud to get on the phone. So it showed that, you know, I wasn't going to get taken advantage of either. Not to say that I wasn't at some point in time because I was very green in the business world as far as entrepreneurship. But at least I showed some, you know, some eagerness to learn to put myself out there. So during that time, for those two years, I did more Appearances than the people getting ready for the Olympia. Really think about it. When you get ready for Olympia, it's four months out of the year that you can't train. You're training, eating, sleeping, rotation, very few appearances because you're staying clothed. This is back then.

Why are you not doing appearances when you're training for the.

Because you want people to see what you look like.

You don't want your competition to know. Right. So you're like, I know I'm not gonna do Olympia, so I'm just gonna do all these guest appearances and I'll build my fan base.

Build my fan base. And guess what? I made more money than the fifth place person.

Wow.

So I was basically getting fifth or even third. And now the fans and like, the. We're talking about, like, places like, you know, I go to Fremont, Burbank, go guest post there. I go up to Portland, Oregon, Seattle, Washington, I go to Tribeca, New York, I go to Florida, I go to South Carolina. I'm going to, I mean, little places like Missoula, Montana, I'm going to. Now I'm starting Kalamazoo, Michigan. Like these little smaller places, too. And they speak your praises. Because normally when a person's getting ready.

For a show, they don't show up to these events.

They're just eating. And if they do, there's just. They're so hyper focused on the eating and the sleeping and the training and stuff. You think they're gonna have this type of interaction? No, they're so hyper focused that they're not. They may say the wrong thing. They may be grumpy that day, but they're getting paid to do a job. And for me, I thought, I get to make this about them. Thanks for waiting in line, Lewis. How can I help you, man? Tell me about your story. Tell me what you want to know. Tell me what you want to know. Anything you want to know about me. We could just talk shop. Me coming from a different background of sports, majority of the time, people just enjoy just hanging out. Absolutely. But they were paying for that too, so it allowed me to, you know, help them with their training as well. Like just waiting in line, me sign an autograph, this, that, selling a hat, T shirt, what have you. But then they felt like, oh, wow, like I actually had some value by meeting him. And I would always tell them, like, hey, if you really liked this, you know, And I say it on stage, my little posing trunks, after I'm done, guest pose. I'm like, guys, like, if you really. If you really like this. And I put the promoter right on the spot.

Tell them to bring me back.

Tell them to bring me back.

That's smart, man.

Tell them bring me back. Y' all want to see me come back next year? I'm like, hey, if you don't do it, bro, we're having dinner later.

That's smart.

And don't worry, guys, I'm keeping the same price. So I let them know I'm keeping the same price for next year. For next year.

Yeah. Even though I'm going to be bigger.

Even though. Yeah. And they knew that. And to this day, there's certain. Like, I'm doing an event this weekend in LA for one of those type of promoters that I kept the rate the same.

Wow.

You know, could I charge 10 times? Oh, yeah. But. But loyalty is everything. Loyalty because of what happened in college.

Right, right.

So that. So, yeah, that's. That's really how I played it. To my benefit of growing a brand. Growing. And it's just been a. It's just been so awesome to share and to just be passionately present with people from all different walks of life.

Yeah.

My fan base, I'm so thankful because they don't look like me. But we all have a story, and I'm always eager to hear it. Not to make myself feel better, but more like I just am so curious. Meeting people that have. From drug addiction to sexual abuse to, you know, suicidal thoughts to just, oh, I lost £100 or had a bad breakup, and it made me into a great bodybuilder. Now I'm just interested to see these things because I feel like now I'm in this pace, in this space where I have the credibility and I can have these conversations in a much more mature setting.

Yeah.

Because I've experienced more, of course. And I want it, and I want to help. I just, you know, know that's my job. That's really my calling. I just.

Service. Yeah, man.

Like, I. I've been so freaking blessed to, you know, I can say, yeah. What country haven't I been in?

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I got murals of me in different countries of the world.

Crazy.

Never thought about this. Someone I got a guy tattooed my signature on his bicep on his forearm. I got a girl that literally has a tattoo of my most muscular pose in fine detail on her arm. Another girl on her calf.

Wow.

What? I didn't. This is a guy that was laying in the street. This guy was willing to not stand up to the pressures of life and was willing to just pack it all in. And God saved me and I'm so thankful for it. So when I won my first Mr. Olympia, you talk about going from.

30.

31 back to those different moments, growing up all these different whys on the road, all these times where I thought it wasn't going to work out, and I kept going. All those different synapses in your head, and then life flashed before your eyes, and then you're, Whoa, I'm here. 10,000 people screaming and hollering. And that's why the tears flow, because I didn't give up. But even when I wanted to, I had a higher power that was just like, nah, man, I got something bigger. And even now, it's not like, you know, I wanted to win 10 Mr. Olympias. I got seven. How do I digest that into making that not feel like failure?

So when you. Because you won seven in a row, isn't that right? And then that next one, did you get second? Is that right?

I got second, yeah.

How did that feel, going from number one in the world seven years in a row to number two? Did you think you should have won?

Of course I still do.

But, like, how did that make you feel, though?

Did you. Did it.

Did you lose the confidence? Did you still feel like you gave it your best? Or did you feel like, oh, now I'm not as good as I once was?

I was hurt, really. I was very hurt emotionally, because after I won number seven, I had emergency hernia surgery. And in the world of bodybuilding, that's almost like a death sentence, because long recovery. But also, it's an aesthetic issue because you can have a scar or something like that. So different sport, Just patch you up and go back in.

Yeah. You play bodybuilding, so it's all aesthetic.

So I retour that incision. Getting ready for 2018, three weeks out. Oh. So to have to deal with that emotionally, the physical part, I was able to deal with the pain, like the pain tolerance that I have.

Right, You're a machine.

Yeah, you can. I'm in pain. I mean, exactly. I'm in my subconscious mind. I'm just like.

You're not feeling it?

No, you just push through, push through. But when I realized that there's a high, when I realized that I more likely was not gonna win, as I was getting on that stage that night for the evening, for the second day, because there's two days, I said to myself, I'm not going down without a fight, and you can't fight. So what. What can I control? Well, during the pose, down, you're gonna be as aggressive as possible. You're just gonna hit shot for shot with this guy. You're gonna call him out. I grabbed his damn wrist and I walked him Over. And I said, no, you hitting this shot right now, because right now I'm still your senior time seven, if you want this. And you're gonna probably win, but you're gonna know this is for me, too, because I need to see these photos later on. Wow. And I need to prove it to myself that I didn't just let you have this. Even though I was told little birds here and there from judges telling my trainer that, like, yeah, it's probably not going to happen for Phil, I still, for my pride, man, I was like, oh, no, you could tell me that I'm going to lose. And I'm like, oh, I don't. I don't give a damn. Like, I'm going to fight. And I'm glad I did do that. He probably already knew he was going to win, so he was like, I don't care. I'll get these shots, you know, whatever. But the feeling I felt, you're just standing there. The next name I read is going to be your 2018 Mr. Olympia. And when they said. And when they said Sean Roden, not Phil Heath, I've been used to hearing Phil Heath, Phil Heath, Phil. It hurts so bad. Oh. I mean, you talk about Knives, it was more like someone took the sawed off shotgun and just blew me away. Oh, man. But yet I was still alive and I could still see the hole. And I'm just like, did this just happen? And now the roar from the crowd. I was trying to digest that part.

Cheering him, not you.

I was trying to digest that. Was that more like, what does that mean? At the time, I don't know what that means. Is it just for him, or is it the fact that they just hated me? Because I definitely developed the Tom Brady effect in my industry, for sure. Like, they just want to see me lose, of course. So you got people that just want to see you lose. They don't care who it is that wins. So I knew there was a combination of all that. But then I'm like, but you have to. You got to acknowledge the guy. So I hugged him and told him, congratulations, you look great. Oh. Which he did. And I told him, thank God that we can make money for our families doing this. How cool is that? How cool is it? I said, congratulations, man. And I remember what he said back, but I do remember now I'm having to deal with more roars. It's just ear piercing. And you're trying not to look in the crowd because I don't know if they're laughing at me. I'm thinking like all of the negative.

You're embarrassed.

Like, I'm embarrassed. I'm the second in the world at something and I'm embarrassed. I'm fairly embarrassed. But yeah, that's what you do when you're a winner. You do feel embarrassed. You do feel like they're laughing at you. You do feel like you didn't complete the mission. This isn't completing the mission. The mission is to win, to be the greatest of all time. This was taken from me. These judges, they ruined this for me. It wasn't because of my own lack of diet and training and this, but my incisions toward, like, what the hell? Why now? Why? That's starting to play. But as you can see, like all milliseconds, trying to digest, trying to digest. They put the second place around my neck, to be honest. Loose. I don't even know where that is. So I get the handshake from our league president.

Try to smile, try to be cool.

But it's like, what's he supposed to do, man? Like, you know, he can't show, like, favoritism as far as, like, me as a human being. Did it probably maybe hurt him too? I'm sure it did. Because he knew. I love that because I went from basketball, not having it, to bodybuilding and struggling and not having money to. To finally earning and traveling around the world and wanting to be Mr. Olympia. Going through all this crap and now you win it over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. To not having that feeling. I got on one knee and I prayed on the stage, on stage, while they're awarding, I don't know what they're doing with him. I said, phil, before you walk off, you're going to give credit to your creator because you know what? This is the defining moment of you as a human being, not as you being a champion anymore. This is about you. You can't be a hypocrite. You got on your knee and you point up in that sky, you prayed, you thank God and all this other stuff. But this is where it matters the most. This is such a character building moment for yourself. This is not for show. This is not for everybody else. But you made winning habitual. Well, you're going to make these. These are habitual things too. This can't just matter when you win. And I thought about my future self, what that would look like. So as I walked off, I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to do. I remember having that check I was like, this is bs. I took all the metals off. I remember one of the expediters, like, stuff, like, guy. I was like, I quit. I was like, f this. He was like, it's just so bad for me to. Bad sportsmanship. But I was just pissed. I'm like, f this, I'm done, You know, like. Because now I gotta go get surgery again. I'm just like, I don't know if I can go through that. Like, this is just too much. The Internet was getting to me, like, you know, it was just a lot, man. Because I was knocking on the door of Lee Haney and Ronnie Coleman, and that got taken from me. So I don't know, like, if I could and if it was really worth it. So I go backstage and, you know, I'm friends with Tim Grover. You know Tim, and he talks about that book winning. He talks about winning, Phil, you're a winner. But not tonight. It's sleeping with him. And all that applause. All those people that were cheering you on or even booing you didn't get. You loved it. There was someone else. Right now you're walking off stage into something unknown. You've been second at the Olympia before, but it was different because you now lost a title before you got second the year before you won. Different. How do you process this? So I'm like, scatterbrained, and I'm diet. I'm depleted. I'm trying to figure this stuff out.

Got no sugar. Yeah.

So I'm like, what do I do? I'm like, okay, subconscious mind. Where's my bag? Drink some fluids.

Yes.

Put your clothes on and get the hell out of here. You know, it's interesting with winning. It's like when you're winning, all the pats on the back, even the people that hate you kiss you. They do. Yeah. When you lose, you get to see some reality. They're with him now, right? There was no one backstage. There was no interview. There was no one there. They claimed that they were, but I was like, well, what am I supposed to do? I'm supposed to sit here and wait while you guys. And that's part of winning. Yeah. You're supposed to wait until he's done.

We're done with him, and then we'll talk about.

Yeah. I was like, no, I'm out of here. So going to that hotel room, long, long walk, man. I wanted to walk home. I wanted to walk home, get to the hotel room. You know, you have bottles of champagne. You know, you got a big old sheet cake. Do I eat this? No. Oh, Instagram.

This is what, 20, 20, 18, 18.

Give credit where credit is due. Go on Instagram and congratulate them. Now I gotta deal with that. And. Oh, and do I punk out and leave the comments off because there's gonna be some people that are gonna let you. They're gonna get some. They're gonna clap back at you. Oh, yeah, you deserve to lose. F you, this and that. I was getting all that, you know, even before, you know, I was winning. You're gonna get that times 10 now because you literally said that you were gonna win. You know, they're gonna like, oh, he's arrogant. He's this, he's that. Let me, let me. You know, those devils come out, man. Wow. Because they saw vulnerability. So I realized I was so emotionally raw that I had to trick myself into just staying in gratitude so hard sometimes. Imagine all those years you're being invited to the best nightclubs. I would party at XS and Encore Hotel. They shut down the lights when I walk in and play the Jam is here. Oh, they do all that cool stuff. I didn't have no after party that year. Ooh. I didn't want it, though. Right. Because I was at the point in time in my career where I wanted more intimate moments with people who really mattered. Right. And I knew that a lot of my even close friends and relatives were taking advantage of that, of that hospitality.

Sure.

So I just wanted, like. It's funny though, because when you're winning, you have all those. The entourage and stuff. I literally had 90 people on a guest list going to that nightclub and stuff. You know how much that costs?

So much.

So much. Imagine how many people poured me a cocktail, pat me on the back. That's how it works, though. That's the other side of winning, though.

Yeah.

You know, you deal with those hanger ons and stuff like that. But when you're losing. I didn't have any text messages.

What was the biggest lesson losing taught you?

We're all individually. I had to look at life like a space shuttle. It's big when it starts and it blows off. When it gets to the moon and comes back, it's very small. I'm halfway through right now. Parts have fall off. They fell off. Those are people. And I have to be okay with that because they were necessary. And I was necessary for them too, of course. But I have to accept that. So that best friend or that business partner that screws you over, that person, whatever, that ex wife, whatever, it's still going Somewhere they've fallen off and they got their own stuff. It just taught me that life's not finished, man. Don't go in a downward spiral because you're so emotionally raw, because you felt like you gave it everything you got. Did you give it everything? Yes. Did you get hurt? Yes. Are you the first person to ever get hurt? No. Did you ever think that you would be the best in the world at anything? No. Wow. Did you not have a conversation with Arnold Schwarzenegger at the Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic to say that you were going to win number seven and you were going to honor him? Yes. You won that? Yes. Did you get hurt while you were doing it all those years? Yes. But you still won seven. Arnold didn't win seven in a row. Remember? He won six. He retired. He came back and won seven. He won seven. Dude, that's a pretty big deal. There's only three people in the world that have done seven, if not eight. Learn it's not just smelling the roses right now. It's thanking your body. And that was very hard. Yeah. Because what would be the first thing was like, if you got hurt, you get patched up and you. Coach, put me back in. I'm gonna handle this. When it comes to double hernia, intestinal strangulation, and, yeah, you know, diastasis recti, where now I gotta put everything back in titanium staples, mesh here, mesh here. You're gonna leave a scar, and you got six months of inactivity or very low active, and now you gotta sit at home as a loser.

That's tough.

Honey, can you spike this coffee? Sure. Then I realize I can't turn into alcoholic, but I can't go to the gym. That's my fix.

So what do you do?

How am I feeling?

Is that when you really started to process emotions and feelings?

Yeah. On that recovery stage, I had some good friends, man. I had some good celebrity friends that dealt with some stuff. Because really, at that moment in time, there's only certain people that you get advice from. Let's just keep it.

Who can really understand what.

There was three people that reached out, and I'll name them.

Who is that?

Shaquille o' Neal hit me up the night of. He came to the show, and I was very thankful for the words that he said. You know, he's basically saying, like, sucks, happens.

Unfortunately, happened to him.

You know, you just come back, and if you want to come back, you kick the. Out of him. That's what he said. You know, he's like, you just. That's what you do.

Recover, heal. Yeah.

And then come back stronger. Dave Bautista hit me up, told me that, hey, this is big bro hitting you up. And don't maybe stay off Twitter for a little bit, you know?

Yeah, of course.

And Isaiah Washington, the actor, he hit me up and he said, you're too emotionally raw right now to deal with the world. You need to give yourself some time to process. So maybe hold off some interviews. May say the wrong thing. Did I listen to that halfway? I probably did some interviews that I probably shouldn't have done, but no one taught me how to be a champion during the social media era either. I didn't have a publicist, I didn't have pr. The whole industry doesn't have that. So no one was willing to even. No one was willing to do it because they didn't know how to digest it themselves. There was no one from the league office that was like, hey, Phil, like, I know this sucked. I didn't really get a phone call. I got text messages. That's not good enough for me. That.

So I'm a seven time champ now.

I'm like, nothing.

Yeah, call me.

Yeah. So I had to rely on the fact that I did. Instead of focusing on the people that didn't show up, focus on the people who did. You got three people that have definitely gone through some certain things individually in their careers. Listen, write down your feelings. Challenge yourself to write down these honest feelings. You don't have to share them with the world. Because, see, you know what happens with social media is we're gonna pull that phone out, we're gonna say something, and we're gonna look back and say, damn, I shouldn't have said. Yeah, that sounded stupid. I write it down.

What was the theme, the consistent theme that came up for you? The more you wrote down things over those six months that kept coming up, then I'm hurt.

Really. Then I'm hurt. I gave everything and I felt like it was taken away. And I'm trying to understand, even writing to God, like, what does this mean? I don't know if I can do this anymore. I could do it, but like, at what level? To my standard. To my standard, the standard that everybody else has for me, I've already surpassed that. They didn't think I was going to win more than two, but my standard. Why does everybody else get to have this moment? They're not even half as good as me. This is my thought process. And people even could watch it now and be like, that's crazy. No, I knew how good I was, because I was creating so much distance that even the announcers would say it. Like, the only way he's gonna lose is if he gets hurt. Wow, that's a Madden curse. It happened so the inevitable happened because eventually we all get hurt.

You get hurt or someone's something younger or bigger.

But I was on a roll. I thought I was really gonna win 10 of these things consecutive. Oh, yeah.

So if you didn't get hurt, you think you would have won 10?

For sure. I already had it bookmarked. I was like, I already know how this is gonna play out. I know how to strategize this even. Even through 2018. I was like, if I win this one, I'm gonna have to get the surgery. I'm gonna know how to come back. Maybe I still sit out 2019, and I'm gonna come back even better and then win that. And then win that ninth one, and I'm gonna go for 10, and I'm gonna call it the decade of dominance. I'm gonna write a book. I'm gonna go on tour. I'm going to go nonstop. I'm going to hire freaking PR people. We're going to travel the world. I'm going to go do seminars, I'm going to do. I'm going to everything. Because I was already doing stuff with Make a Wish. I was already doing stuff with the uso. I was already doing stuff, you know, like, around. You know, I was doing all these cool things. But then what stopped me, I stopped me because I lost. I stopped my own damn momentum because I was hurt. So I had to learn that. And even the past couple years, I had to learn that.

Do you think you could have come back and. And after recovering and won, or is.

There something that I think Covet messed that up? I think when I came back, I was also filming a documentary called Breaking Olympia with Adam Scorgy. And yeah, this is written. Yeah, this is so cool. So, like, so Danny Garcia. Shout out to Danny and Dwayne.

Yeah.

Yeah. They're co producing at Seven Bucks Productions. Co producing this. I'm so excited about it. But, yeah, I was able to. We were already slated to do this, but it just so happened that the pandemic was going on. I was like, well, I wasn't really thinking about competing again, but I thought, you know what?

So you thought you were done?

I thought I was done in 2018. I was like, you know what? I watched the 2018 Olympia in Denver because I wanted to know what it felt like to not go to the show.

After you lo didn't lose. After you got second. After I got second the next year, you didn't go.

I didn't even go. Everybody was like, dude, you should still go.

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Because you weren't gonna compete.

I wasn't gonna compete.

So you weren't ready to compete yet.

No. And actually, I probably could have, but there was something about me, like, in the mind and the spirit that it just wasn't. Because to me, I have to have all of that going on.

All connected.

Yeah, all connected. It can't just be for the money. It can't just be, you know, it can't just be for ego. It has to, like, really make sense. And I also needed to know. I was trying to find answers. Is this what I'm supposed to be? Like, God, is this where, like, I'm trying to be humble about this? Like, how about I just take a time out? That's interesting, because I felt like the first surgery, it was four months. Second one, six months. So why put that type of stress on yourself?

Recover. Get a full recovery.

Yeah. Get a real recovery. See what that feels like. And honestly, see what it feels like to be home. And if you really love it, if you miss it. If you miss it. Yeah. And then. But be away from it. And also see, if people miss you.

They'Re like, hey, where you at? We miss you.

And then people were doing that, and I'm like, but I think it was 2019. That was 2019. But I think what happened then was that a lot of people thought that they made up their own narrative that I hated it or that I was a sore loser or whatever. And it was. And I tried to process that, and I was like, well, maybe it's because you're such a big time competitor that they just made this, but you don't have to prove yourself to these people. And I think that was the biggest thing, is that I would have been going to the Olympia in 2019 just to prove to people that I'm tough enough to sit there and watch it.

And it's like.

But I sit there and watch it, I'm gonna be a fish in a fishbowl. They're stare at me, stare at my girl. They're gonna analyze every reaction to everything. Why put us through that? That's more stressful. Why don't I just. We sat around. We went to a Mexican restaurant. We sat around and I put the.

Phone up, like, watch it there. Yeah.

And I was like, this is bull. I should totally. And then the waiter was like, aren't you supposed to be somewhere around the same time? I was like, yeah, but they're like, oh, yeah, that. Aren't you supposed to be doing that? I was like. And then that's when it started messing with my head. Oh, you're not doing that no more.

Oh, you're retired. Are you washed up or you're.

So I'm trying to play with that. So then in 2020 came.

Did you think you could have won it that year, watching it on tv?

Hell, yeah.

Really?

Hell, yeah. But. But that's how I feel.

Were you physically. Was your body ready?

The problem is that I wasn't training for it. So I don't know.

But if you would have taken the three months before and. Really, I might have, but who knows?

Should have, could have, would have, like, you know, we're all champions in our own mind.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I can still throw that football. The mountain, you know, Rico type of talk. Right. So, you know, and that's disrespectful to everybody competing, too. So I thought, you know what? View this as a real spiritual, emotional timeout, because you already got the physical part. This is a real timeout. Let's figure out who you are as a man. You decide to come back. After watching that Olympia, I was like, let's just do it. But then when March 2020 came, I was like, well, how the hell am I going to do this? How am I going to do this? But then I thought, this would be even better, because what if I do win during a pandemic and you're filming this? It's already being documented. Wow. What would your story be of triumph and if you lose? And this was really cool because I remember meeting up with Dwayne. Dwayne was shooting Titan games. Mm. And I was in his trailer, and.

He Was out here in la, right?

No, he was in Georgia.

Okay. Yeah.

So he had. He gave me some really good advice, and he was like, you know, you have to. You have to figure out why you're really doing this.

Why are you coming back?

Yeah. And it might have to be. This is your last one. It might have to be that way. You might have to put yourself in that. That mindset.

That's what he said to you.

Yeah. Because there's other goals that you have that may not coexist, they may not coincide with one another, they may not work. Because I want to get in TV and film and do other things. You know, start businesses and businesses, coaching, you know, seminars, all that cool stuff.

It takes a lot of time and energy.

Exactly. You can't focus. No.

All your time training, fifth at the.

Olympia, going halfway, no question about it. But to be. That's not gonna satisfy me. Chasing a paycheck like that, that's not gonna. You. You become a weaker version of self. Just chasing. No, I'm chasing history. If I'm doing. But then I started figuring out the upside. What's the upside if I win? One of the greatest comebacks in history. If I lose? It'll depend how you lose and how you honor yourself, because they've not seen you for now 27 months. I got third. Did I like it? I don't know. I'd be lying if I said it.

Dang. Did you think you could have won?

I think I could have. It was the first time in my career that I felt like my coach and I, we missed our peak because in bodybuilding, it is about peak week and stuff like that. We were able to nail down that formula, but during COVID we weren't able to see each other. He lives out in the Bay Area in Denver. Just. He was dealing with. His father had passed away due to Covid and this and that. He's dealing with California restrictions, I'm dealing with Denver restrictions. It was just like, there's a lot of things that probably could have changed. I felt like I looked really good two, three weeks out where I should have won. And it's a timing issue, and this is how I've beaten so many other people, is that I got the timing right. Even Arnold Schwarzenegger said in Pumping Iron, you got to get the timing right. So you want to. You want to run this race with world class, world record speed. Not in the semifinals of the 100 meters. It's the Olympic final that you want it to.

Yeah, exactly Right. So you want to peak in the playoffs. Not, like during the regular season.

Yeah. I don't. Yeah. So I didn't do that. I felt like I would. If I would have no question in my mind, I would have won. But that didn't happen. And I have to deal with that reality, too. So when I was announced third, I didn't like it. The crowd didn't make it sound. Which was very interesting.

When they announced you as third.

Yeah.

No cheers?

No nothing?

No, because they're like. They realize I. The way I digested that was they're not used to seeing me lose, but they're also trying to figure out how I'm receiving this information. That's how I digested it. So it triggered me to think back when you're playing ball and you're in practice and your coach is putting you through this thing called attitude check. They call a penalty or something in practice, and you're like, that clearly wasn't a penalty foul, you know, technical foul on field, but the ball was out of bounds. You didn't call the foul.

Double T. Yeah, right.

And they do this in practice to teach you not how to react, they teach you how to learn how to respond better. So respond to the negativity of that bad news. So I was like, okay, well, this is bad news. I think it's total bs, but eyes are on you, not just in this arena, but all over the world. You got first at the. You got third at your first Mr. Olympia in 2008. This ain't too bad, man. You've dealt with injury. No one has a story that you do. You've beaten these guys for over 10 freaking years.

You're also, what, 40 at that time? 41 or something? Yeah.

Like, what, are you tripping? Like, you know, I'm trying to, like, as I'm walking. This is bs.

This is bs.

This is bs. Oh, man, this is so stupid. Damn it. I thought I should at least got second, but really, if I got second, it wouldn't matter.

It wouldn't matter.

Hurt worse, actually, you're right.

Cause you're like, I was that much closer, right?

And then maybe come back the next year. You know what I mean? Like, you're still chasing, but without them cheering or booing. It was just like, they're observing. This is a very interesting point in my career. Then let them see you smile. Yeah, I got all my teeth. Yeah, I'm good. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm honoring myself. I'm honoring myself. Thank God I was able, you know? Now it's more Gratitude, like, thank God that I was able to do this.

You're healthy so long, you're not injured now.

Yeah, man, like third in the world. You got people that have competed for 20 years that never even got third.

That don't even make the Olympia.

There you go. And who, who are you going to inspire right now? Your entire fan base in the entire world that's watching, because they're gonna look at you as a human being right now. It's not like you're not Mr. Olympia. It's not like you're not 7 time anymore. You're still 7 time. And try to find as much gratitude as possible in that current period of time. So I did, you know, and I had to remember, oh, my goodness, the guy that won in 2019, Brandon Curry, just lost his title in 2020. So you think you're upset. He probably pissed. And then you got one of your other friends, you know, Big Ramy, he went, he won, and he looked up to me so much. Congratulate him. So, you know, I congratulate, you know, Brandon, because I know everybody wanted to beat me, of course.

And that first win for someone is.

Probably like, they're probably like, man, even though I got second, I still got a chance to say that I placed ahead of Phil, regardless of how he looked. Like, I got, that's a scalp, that's a helmet. Like, he can say, hey, I got him. That. That burns me up even now, you know, because the competitor, man, like, damn. But then I'm like, you look great.

This.

And that goes around me like, you look great, man. And he's like, I love you, man. I'm so happy. You know, he's a big, you know, big old 300 pound mountain of a man. And. But I told him, this is your time, but you better come in better, because I could have beat this, this, and you know it. Wow. I said, but I love you, man, but as champion, you have to be better. We talk about Ferrari, stuff like that. You got to be 0 to 69 in 8 seconds. You got to keep going, going, going, going, faster, faster, faster, better, better, better. You got to be better in your performance all the time. You're, you're a salesman of the year. Why can't you do that next year? Oh, well, why can't you be straight A's every semester? Once you hit that champion level, that becomes your new standard. Everything else is zero. Now, everybody else will look up to you, but you should be looking, not down, not even straight ahead. You should be looking up. And that's how I looked at it. Another mountain that I have to climb. So I had to remind him that. Because if I can be. My nickname was always the Gift. What can I give him? What can I give him? This is a person I'm competing against. But what can I give him? Because what do I really want to do is imprint my soul within this sport. Yes, I must give him a piece of me.

Wow.

No matter how much this hurts right now, this ain't about me, though. It's about him. He put in the work you did, too, Phil. But this is his moment. And you know how it felt when people didn't give you your shine. They didn't pat you on the back, they talked trash about you. Even though you won, you're not going to do that. You're going to be better, you're not going to be bitter. You're going to give him a piece of you. Because in order for this sport to grow, we have to do that. And if I decide to come back, he knows that I elevate everybody's game. I have that effect. I didn't give him secrets or anything, but I'm telling him what this means. You got this title, but you must be better, because if you're not, you might lose it. And I know how that feels. Feels. And it's not okay if you don't give it everything. Plus, it's not. You know, when people talk about the nth degree, I'm not the biggest mathematician or whatever, but why not N plus one? That's what I live by. Should always be N plus one. Oh, you got to go to the nth degree. Add one to that. Try doing that, and people start squirming in their seat because I don't want to do it. Because they're afraid. They're afraid that they have to reinvent themselves. They're afraid. Your salesman of the year, pat on the back. Here's the check, the bonus. You get to take your wife on the cruise. January 1st, budget cuts, and your quota goes up 25 more percent, and you're supposed to be winner. How do you do it? You start complaining. Majority of people start complaining. No question about it. But if you get hurt, so what? I was hurt in 2016, still trained. 2017, still trained, still dealt with the pain. Understood that the pain did not matter because what I was trying to. My why was too big. And I knew what my purpose was. If I quit now, then I just. I crap on every person that poured into me, every fan that waited in line for Me, I was probably one of the first guys to. After I would win, I would go with my trophy to the end of the stage and put my hand out just to shake their hand because I wanted them to feel what I was feeling. Wow. Because physical touch is amazing.

Huge. Yes.

You see NBA players and I can't stand it. I'm just gonna call it out. NBA players, NFL guys, they all do it. This is what they do when they walk out. Imagine when you look up and they do this and they touch. Sometimes they just want to touch you, man. Now I get it. Like, everybody ain't like that. But why not look at the person and say, thanks, man. Maybe their dad or their mom. That was the first and only time they were able to see you.

Right.

It ain't gonna be about how many titles you win. It's gonna be about how you make people feel. And I get being a winner and you gotta have this game face and this and that. But can you do both? Yeah, I was able to do both. And I wanted to share that because now that I already won, like, let me shake your hand, man. So it's always been about, like, trying to deliver different moments for people.

Yes.

And. And that's why I'm here, you know, fortunate chat with you. Yeah. You know, it's all about sharing different philosophies, mindset, but also just understanding that we have to deal with our own emotional traumas as we go through it. We have to raise our hand to say that this is, this is not right. We all need to give ourselves some type of rest. We also need to understand when we are on vacation. We are on vacation. And you're laughing because I'm sure you've.

Been on vacation, working away.

Yeah, yeah, working away. I've been on vacations where the nicest places in the world. And I'm too busy worrying about the next. But that's the hard part too. It's like. So we talk about winning, you're always.

You know, strategizing, thinking, oh, my God.

I'm already thinking on Olympia stage, where I'm going to be doing for next year or next month, you know, I'm going to detox and then get ready for the next one. But sometimes you still, even if it's for just a couple of days, you just have to write it down and say, for the next two days, I'm going to make this about my family.

Plan for rest and recovery.

Rest. I need real rest and I need to some real time to reflect and write things down. And then look back at those things I wrote down because it's very interesting to see what you write down in those moments. Right?

Absolutely. I'm curious. When in your life were you the most insecure? Was it pre Olympia days, during the height of your Olympia success, or since the last few years?

I've had insecurity probably throughout my entire life in some way, shape or form, really. Growing up as an only child. Yeah. You know, it took me until I'd say, like, 16, when I had a. Or 15, when my. The varsity coach of my high school, Mike Bethea. He's still there. Knew that I had a killer instinct inside. But I was always trying to be light and just blend in with the crowd sometimes. I mean, I was a hard worker, don't get me wrong. And I was still competitive, but I. But I could have been better. So, for instance, like, I could dunk a basketball at 15.

That's crazy.

At 5, 9.

At 5, shoot 5, 7. Back then. But I would lay it up, and it would get beat up off the glass, you know, and he benched me one time, and he yelled at me and made me run sprints during halftime. Everybody else was doing their thing. He got me running sprints as a punishment to saying, like, you. I will drill this into your head one way or the other. I will embarrass you. He yelled at me. Remember, he hit me on the shoulder one time. My mom wanted to run down the bleachers. And, like, you can't touch my son. You know, I'm like, mom, he's got it. We had our own relationship. He was like a father to me because he saw. He saw it, and he knew that I was just. Just holding onto something. Like, what? What was it? And I, you know, I didn't know what it was. And I was just like, oh, I'm afraid. I'm afraid of missing or I'm afraid. And he was like, you're gonna learn. He put me in that game. He said, if you don't dunk this damn ball, I will bench you. I remember dunking that damn ball so hard. Really Well, I dunked it. I mean, it was like. Like dunked it so hard. You know, the ball bounces. And then I was like, I did it. You know, it was like one of those moments, like, in the mind. You're like, I did it. And I'm like, but you've been doing it in your backyard. You've been doing it with your friends, but you didn't do it on a bigger stage. So that was one of those moments of insecurity, of, like, I could do that. What else can I do? Oh, I had an AAU coach that would say, if you can shoot 6 out of 10 on any place on the floor, you can do it in a game. You could just pull up. I don't care. Pull up on fast break for a crying out loud and just shoot the three. I don't care. But if you can make it six out of ten with a hand in your face and practice, you can do this in the game all day. Because that's going to translate to maybe like 4 out of 10 in the game. I don't care. I'll play percentages. That's what got me to college, just having that confidence. But I needed someone to pull it out of me. So I'd say that in bodybuilding, I had some good friends that were just trying to pull that out of me. Just to say, you know, drop your pants and pose. You know, you're like, wait a minute, man. I don't want to do this first bodybuilding show. You're like, wait a minute. I wear gym shorts. I don't wear these posing trunks, man. I mean, I'm good. I got a physique, man. But I was so worried, like, you know, I was naked and I was worried that other people wouldn't like it because you are being judged by strangers who are physically judging you. And then in the audience, so there's that insecurity. And then just when you looked yourself.

In the mirror where you're in the height of Mr. Olympia, were you insecure or were you more confident?

I'd probably say after number the second one, after the second Mr. Olympia win, I really owned. Oh, this is amazing.

You owned your body, you owned yourself. You're on the moment.

You don't have to have this crazy face all the time and try to be something that you're not. It's like, winning can be habitual, bro. You don't have to be like everybody else. That to make people think, you know, a lot of time we may put on a front because we think if we look a certain way, we talk a certain way, people think we're serious. If I can just get. If I can just get the job done with a smile on my face, that means I'm a real professional. Bruce Lee didn't have to be like. He was just like, chill.

Yeah.

I'm just in my mind and I can punch you. I could do this. I know what I can do. I don't remember Michael Jordan. Have to be like all grunt and cuss and this and that. They just do. I don't need to put on a show for you. I am the show. You come in to see me. And that may sound arrogant to certain people, but technically you are here to see the champion either win again or be dethroned.

Right.

I earned this place. I earned it. So I used to have to. I would argue even with my coach, my nutritionist, because we'd be peeking for a show and he'd be like, very, very nervous. Well, that's just who I am. I'm like, that's you. But don't bring that over here, man. We've been here before. We've been here before. I had drilling in his head. I almost shake him sometimes. Literally. Like, we fight like brothers, you know, I tell him to go F off and this and that. Walk out the room and I'd be like, dude, you don't get it. What worked for the first one or the second one. Don't have to do that now. Once you have a system in place, I don't have to. I can be more mature and be more wise and say, this is a more controlled aggression. I should know how to do this. I should know how to strategize and operate. I should know how to adjust better. I should make people have to guess what I'm actually thinking now. Like playing poker, person that's sweating or the person that's chill, I know who I am. So around that third Olympia title, I was like, oh, dude, in that third one I won. I only did one call out in the prejudging, which is unheard of. That hasn't happened since like 1988, where you do like one comparison and they're like, phil, back in line. We don't need to see anything else. For a two day show. Actually, for a two day show, that's never happened. For a one day show, that happened back in 1988 with Lee Haney.

So what explain for people that don't know what is that? You just go out there for a few minutes, you pose. Yeah.

The prejudice lasts anywhere from an hour to two hours. Just depends on how many comparisons they want to do with different numbers. Let's say there's 20 people. They bring her out in groups of four or five. You just do quarter turns, maybe hit a couple different poses. They basically see you come out individually as well. So then after they've seen you individually with a group, now they see, okay, we've seen all 20 people.

Everybody looks like, compare some of them.

Yeah, We've seen everybody individually, so we kind of know who's on, who's off. But we don't know until we compare them. We compare them in a group numerically, and then we say, okay, out of the 20 people, we need number five, number seven, number eight, number 20, number 16. And then we compare them. Quarter turns, hit front, double bicep, all these different poses. And then they may bring in another person, move people around because the judges are sitting like this. So the judges over here, they need different angles and stuff. Imagine going through that, you know, first full called out of the top five. Who the judges feel is top five? They move me around to the center. Usually if you're in the center, you're.

The go to guy.

They're comparing everybody to the center. And then they brought us out one more time, and they just said, fell back in line. And the whole crowd gasped. And I'm like, which means you won. I just basically. Unless if I do something stupid tonight, going into mall night, this is a wrap. Wow. We're gonna do some victory laps right now. But instead of thinking like that, I'm like, straight up, Kobe Bryant style. Job's not finished. Let's go ahead and pour. Pour it on even more. Oh. Oh. Let's, like, create now. Let's create. Let's create a real moment. Let's create some real distance. Let's remind them who the hell I am. Let's. Let's. When you're on stage and you can actually feel someone's energy, and I'm sure you felt this on the field, it could have been like, coin toss. It could have been after a play. I don't feel anything from these guys. Oof. I just snatched their souls. I just snatched their effing souls. Oh. And they know it. They know. Ooh. You know, in my mind, I'm like, ooh, shame on you. But then I'm thinking, what are you gonna do with it? You're gonna get arrogant about this. You're gonna keep going. N plus 1. N plus 1. N plus one. And that's what I did. So I wanted to be so good that even if I was off, I was so much far further ahead.

Yeah.

That they could say, well, this isn't his peak performance, but it's so good that he's gonna win. And I know that that was a hard to digest for certain fans. It's not like you can't expect Kobe to hit 81 every game. Jordan to hit 69 every game. His off night could still Win. That's what determines who's the greatest and who ain't your greatest is like, my average. And that's what I did.

Wow.

And a lot of people, like, I said it rubbed people the wrong way because I would literally go all east. I'm like, I'm gonna win this. And people are like, what? I'm like, so you're trying to tell me that I'm supposed to down talk myself when I've put the work in and I have the social proof? And then even fans would chime in. And I hated that because I was like, I would never tell a child or even an adult if someone said. If I said, Louis, like, so I hear that you're doing this business venture, this, that. Tell me about it. Oh, you shouldn't do that. But I'm sure you've heard people say, oh, you should reconsider this.

Yeah.

Why are you telling me how to run my life? If I need to bump my head a few times, Maybe just tap me on the shoulder after I bumped my head once and be like, I was gonna tell you. Yeah, yeah, don't do that again, bro. Let me help you.

Sure.

But, you know, we live in a society where, you know, it's hard to share everything because people are gonna tell you what they feel based on their own insecurities. They're not living my life. They're not the director of my life. They're not the lead actor of my life. They're not even the co star of my life. They even the co pilot of my life. I'm the lead. I'm going to do what I want to do, and I've got to live with those choices and consequences. And it all worked out. It wasn't perfect, but life ain't got no rehearsal, brother. Yeah, you got to just know how to know how to move. You don't know how to bob and weave, and you're going to get hit. You're going to take a standing eight count. You're going to take that eight count. You're going to take that time out. Because if you don't take that time out emotionally, you cannot battle physically in anything, whether it be in a relationship, business, anything. You got to know, like, okay, this is a sign that this didn't work.

And.

Yeah. And one of the other things I learned is that you can't be a sore winner either. Because when you're trying to do stuff to please other people so much, thinking that after you do succeed, you think that that's going to satisfy the World, it may have just pissed more people off. So then you get angry because they're not giving you your respect. So I had my Kanye moment numerous times throughout my career. Like, you ain't giving my respect. Like, but really does. Does that matter so much? But it did. The opinion of others, that's where the insecurity, like, but then I had to dissect that.

Was that one of your biggest fears? Was it fear of failure, Fear of success, or fear of other people's opinions?

Wasn't fear. Well, it started off with fear of success because you know that once you attain a certain level, that becomes your new standard. And anything less is. But it all kind of ties in together because once you get to this standard, people accept that now they may judge you even worse. Your bullies, actually, the people that talk the most trash, I call them bullies.

How did you learn to really overcome the bullying or the opinions or the judgments of so many people?

Just keep working. Whatever I had to say to myself, if I had to curse them out, in my mind, I did. Fortunately for me, I had the gym to use as a profession. It's not like everybody else, where they have to go back in that boardroom and stuff like that. A little different. I had the weight. You could get it out and literally get it all out. And that was my job. So it's not like I could go do this for an hour and then make it three hours if I wanted to. A CEO of a company can only make it maybe an hour, and then they still gotta handle that board meeting and stuff. But I think what coexists is making sure that you got it out in that period of time. So then you don't hold onto it so much because it will make you a sore winner and you won't deliver your message because it'll mess with that frequency of your voice and because real ones can see, oh, man, he's hurting. That's why he's lashing out on Twitter or Facebook. This and that. There's something different with him. Yeah, he's smiling, but he's not happy. And I would look at some of my old pictures, and I would realize there's many years where I, yeah, I thought I was happy, but I was masking it. Mask my divorce. Mask getting screwed over in business. Mask, Mask, Mask. You know, mask dad dying, stepmom dying. Still winning during those years, though. So when you win in. I just label things that happen to everybody. But I still had to be the best in the world. It's not for me to do this, it's for the fact that I knew what I was dealing with. And I'm like. And even now I'm like, how the hell did you do that? Because I had to speak to people about these things, I focused on winning. A lot of people think that winning is such a bad thing. When the chips are down, man, there's winners and losers, man. That's it. Everybody's got a gift to themselves, to the world, man. And you give yourself an opportunity to be successful by understanding that. It will rain, but it also will shine. The sun will come out eventually, man. But if you're in a dark place, man, be your own light. Yeah, I can't be my own light. Being negative all the time, you can only go so far with that. Now I'm the first one to raise his hand, both hands, and say, using the dark side is dope. But at some point, even Darth Vader realized he was Anakin, man. And he didn't like it. He didn't like it. At the very end though, I'm fortunate to realize that there's a time and place for that dark side. I had to mature and to understand that it's always, it's still within me. I can transfer this into business, into everything I put my mind to based on my experiences. But I can do it much more mature and I can do it with a heart of knowing that I just love people.

Yeah.

The reason why I competed so hard is because I really loved people. I still do. Because I realize if someone was to make a mural of me, that means that they love this physique so much that they actually. This is not their physique. Right. These are not like just like some stick figures that they're doing. This is like real like 30 foot murals in different countries and stuff that I can show you online. Like you what the heck? This person put a lot of time and effort, his own resources, her own resources, people, like I said, the tattoos and stuff like that. Wait a minute. This is inspirational. I want people to aspire to be like this. Not like me, but like to want better for their own life. You know, you talk about the school of greatness. Everybody can be great. Yeah. But when you're hungry for greatness, that's one thing.

Man.

I've been starving for greatness. There's a difference. Yeah. See, so before you decide to use that, that's mine. But it is, it's one thing to be hungry. Everybody been hungry. Uh huh. That's different when you're starving.

Why were you starving? What made you have that?

I wanted to win. I knew what it felt like, whether it be an A grade on a test. Excellence is excellence. Break down. How does it feel to do things the right way? Does it feel good or not? It feels good. When you run through a marathon, people. There's some people that run through the finish line, like, oh, no problem. And there's that one person. They look like they dying and they crawl through that finish line. There's always the one person. It felt like they were dying and they still finished. And within an hour. It's not that they could do it again, but they could probably run 400 meters if they really had to. I hated running the 400 meters. I was a one in a deuce. That's it. When I had to run that 4x4 in high school, I hated it when.

I puke every time.

But okay, so you puked 30 minutes later. Oh, let's go for burgers.

You know what I mean?

But what did that feel like, to cross the line? That's life. It's gonna hurt. It's gonna hurt like hell. You're gonna want to pass out during the squats. That's what I always tell people. If I were to say, hey, let's go train arms or chest. Everybody sign up. Train legs or maybe back. Especially legs. Oh, man. What happened was I gotta hit the wife and the kid, you know, like, it's gonna take too much time. And I don't want to slow you down, Phil, but what changed? Negative belief. Yeah. You asked me to go boxing tomorrow. Yeah. Okay. I might have to do it just because it's something different.

Sure, try it out.

I mean, I'm going to be a novice.

Yeah.

I might fall in love with this. Maybe this is a sign that I should do it or not. But you don't know what you don't know.

Absolutely.

And I think variety is the spice of life, man. And you have to ask yourself, so why? Because I'm not good enough. I look stupid. He's better. What are they gonna think? Okay, we just said all kind of negative stuff. Let's talk about the positives. I get good cardio from this. I get to learn a new skill. I get to have a moment with someone I just met. This could turn into a new hobby that I can actually afford. And like I said, I said a useful skill.

Yeah.

That could turn into something more relatable because I'm meeting all other type of athletes. Sure. And I could say, man, you can't bodybuild and I can't box, but man, we could talk about, you know, and it's just another conversation. It's like when you learn a new language, you learn a little bit of here, a little bit of there. Why not just learn a little bit here, a little bit there? And I have to say, sitting here with you, I really appreciate it because I know you get to meet a lot of different type of people.

I'm curious, what would you say is the greatest mental skill that you developed? Whether it was in the gym training, whether it was visualizing at night when you're thinking about the events you were going to compete at? Was it the strategy? Was it the nutrition game? Was it the ability to not feel any pain or go beyond the pain and just do rep after rep, even when you knew you're just ripping, you know, your muscles? What was that the greatest skill that you developed? Was it a belief in yourself?

I wasn't afraid of myself. I wasn't afraid of myself, meaning I decided to put no limitations on myself. That really summarizes everything, right? Like, I would still go to amateur bodybuilding shows, you know, obviously I would do guest appearance and stuff, but I'd still go to the pre shows and watch people.

From amateurs.

This guy's a really good poser. Maybe I should try that. I never heard about this diet. Maybe I tried it in off season and I get to travel around the world so I could do seminars, this and that, talk about what I believe. But then, you know, I start being able to meet with different doctors. I think my willingness to try new things, especially on the recovery side, because I knew that if I could recover faster, smarter than everybody else, I could have more frequency of training. So if you can't recover in bodybuilding, like, forget it. I mean, like, you know, we put people through workout, like, oh, I'm too sore to go back the next day. It's like, but what if I could teach you how to recover faster? So I learned that, so I knew how to recover faster. And then obviously I enjoyed hurting people's feelings. How so?

Just by dominating.

Yeah, yeah. It's like a road game, you know the feeling, just blow them out.

Yeah.

And I'm just being honest. It felt, it felt awesome to know that I had that much rent in their head. I would screw with people so bad, like as far as, like the competitors, and maybe I guess we should ask them, but I would train multiple times a day. But I wouldn't put it on social media of me showing you that I'm training But I show you that I was there. So if you're over in Italy, Egypt, whatever. I'm training at 10pm Mountain Standard Time. You're just not waking up or you're just getting your day going. Phil's already in the gym. When you go to sleep, Phil's in the gym.

Just messing with people. All day long.

All day long. Because I have keys to the gym.

Wow.

So I was just relentless in my approach. And if you showed signs of weakness. Oh, I was going to expose it.

Wow.

But I was humble enough to know that if you, like, you talk about boxing. So, like, if a person has a good, you know, jab that you know how to stay away from it, you try to neutralize that opponent's strategy, especially their strengths. So then they have to deal with yours.

Yes.

And you minimize your weaknesses at the same time. So bodybuilding, same thing. You have big legs. I don't have as big legs, doesn't mean I have to have them bigger than yours. Maybe I can find out what I'm really good at. For me, I was always good at very good conditioning. And I had more bubbly, like, rounder physique. So therefore I didn't have to get 300 pounds in the offseason. I could be 270 off season, but I could look bigger than everybody else. When I said 270 at 270 off season and then pre contest, I would be 240, 245. They would be 300 pounds. Holy cow, 280 pounds. I still beat them. How? Because I focused on the shape. I focused on what I was really good at. See, they were so concerned with being the biggest size.

Yeah.

And they couldn't get. And they didn't allow themselves, see, they didn't allow themselves to adopt a different philosophy. They didn't even try. By the time they tried, it was too late because now they're asking their body to do something. Last minute I was like, nah, man, you guys should just focus on being conditioned and see where it goes. So I was always willing to listen to myself, not listen to others. But my greatest strength was just my competitive spirit. I think ultimately I just, I raised everybody's game level. If they said that I didn't, then they're lying. But I've had people on record say that when we knew that Phil Heath was coming back in 2020, we stepped up, we stepped up our game.

We're in the gym a couple more times a day and even the fans.

Knew, if Phil comes back, man, like you Know. And that's good to know because we. So it's really good to know that you get people to believe in your own expectations too. They may not have believed at first, but then they believe in your standards. Yeah. Because you're gonna prove it. It's one thing to like run your mouth and not have the goods. Yeah, you got the goods. Oh, no, look at this. Larry Bird did it, Jordan did it. Everybody done it. Usain Bolt.

Yeah, man.

I'm like, you're no, there is no way. You.

You worked too hard.

Hey, if you didn't bring it, man, sucks for you. Michael felt splashing the water.

Yeah.

He letting them know better about your lunch. Man. If you ain't ready, if you're not for peak top performance, if this isn't the. The best of your life. Oh, man, you just got a front row seat to watching me do it. To watching me do it. My whole goal was letting people know who the hell I am, giving them a show. But then in life, I should be able to transition. Take that. Knowing who I am. If I'm a public speaker, I gotta know who the hell I am to convey a message. Yes. I gotta be willing to write down notes, review film of myself. How was my body language? Oh, maybe I cursed too much. Maybe I said this too many times. Maybe I said maybe I wasn't comfortable what was going on that day. Oh, you got a bad phone call, this, that and the other. Or you lost a business deal. Well, that let me readjust. See, I looked at every posing routine that I ever done. And I normally wore the same color of trunks every year just so I could compare. I even micromanaged every posing that I did. Getting ready for the show, I would get on the scale. But I also have the food diary of what I ate, what I also trained. Because let's say ten weeks after the Mr. Olympia last year, I was £260, or £270, let's say I was £270 ten weeks out. But my chest looks flat. Did I look at my diet and look at what I trained the day before the day of? Maybe my chest is flat because I just trained legs and my legs look bigger than 10 weeks out the previous year because it was flip flopped. See, I'm micromanaging everything because you're gonna have this self doubt. It's like when I remember Tim Grover saying this. Like he counted how many steps Michael Jordan took in the practice and different points on the floor and this and that. Yes, that matters. That is the 0.1%. That one must take. Sales guy, how many phone calls did you actually make? How long did you hem and haw on the phone with someone that was already sold that you could have said, all right, Louis, like, that's cool, man. We'll chat later. I got some more calls to make, man. I know you got things to do, give the wife and kid hug and kiss, but if I spend too much time with you, I'm not. I could have less productivity. So all of this stuff matters. So I was always about going all out, reinventing everything but understanding. When you talk about lifting, like, oh, you got to put on the music, this and that and the other. But were you really feeling it, though? Were you feeling every rep the best that you could? Maybe not. Maybe not, but maybe that you got through the set. Okay, well, I can shoot 10 free throws, but I ain't Steph Curry. There's a difference. Sure, I can shoot them, we can all shoot them. But can we make 10 out of 10? Or I'm sure Steph Curry could probably make 100 out of 100 or 99 out of 100. If you give them an opportunity. I probably make 75, maybe 80. There's a difference. Break down the mechanics. Am I confident? Yeah. Break everything down. So I have to now do that in business, as an entrepreneur, I have to do it continuously in my current relationship. I've been married before, so that didn't work. So let's break that down. I've conquered certain things with that. Immaturity, this and that. Lack of communication, lack of accountability. Lack, lack, lack. Also acknowledge the good stuff. But what can I learn from this and actually learn from it now that I'm in a new relationship? Because I can't ruin this one. Because now the common denominator is me.

Yeah, of course, right.

But how many people are open to criticism, feedback, feedback, but own self accountability. When you talk about, like David Goggins, a huge fan of his. I love that guy. I gotta meet him someday.

Yeah, he's great.

Accountability mirrors are important, man. What do you say to yourself in the morning? What do you say every time? Self talk is so freaking important. You live in a world where man stuff is messed up. Things on the phone will make you doubt who the hell you are. You're comparing your life to strangers non stop based on something that you saw that you can't quantify if that's real or not. Oh, but he's on a yacht and a snap, man. Like, that's his friend's yacht. That's his friend's car or maybe he's money laundering.

Right. Who knows?

You don't know?

I don't know what he's doing.

Maybe he's doing it right. Take the characteristics of how he really got there, how she got there, maybe start digging that out. And if you can't find anything from that, maybe they are a fraud. You can probably figure it out pretty quick.

Sure.

But we have to be better concerning and discerning individuals to figure those things out.

So true discernment is key, man. What's the thing you're most excited about now? You mentioned this documentary. What are you doing now? And this new chapter, this kind of like what you're creating in your life.

My goal with the documentary that'll be released later this year.

That's exciting. Where's that going?

So that's the cool part is that. The cool part is that I've never had an opportunity to have it be with someone like a Danny Garcia and Dwayne Johnson.

Yeah, they're awesome.

To have more eyeballs from like Netflix, ESPN and NBC Universal. It's just amazing. It's such a good blessing to have people that are very interested in purchasing this. So we are very excited to unveil this at a film festival here later this year. Wow.

I don't have to come watch it.

We are definitely pumped for that. Obviously, it's. It's something of my life's work. It talks about a lot of the things that we discussed here in more depth and you get to see it rather just to hear it. I'm very happy about it because it's about me as a human being, not just a bodybuilder. And I enjoyed filming that. That produces so many other things. Obviously, entrepreneurship, you know, I'm looking at different endeavors, whether it be in supplements, clothing, stuff like that. I'm working with various brands at the moment. And I'm actually considering, you know, being a part of the Olympia in a different way. Whether it be on stage as a commentator or actually maybe not competing, but maybe giving back in a certain way. You know, I actually got with a company who I'm partnered with. It's a hormone clinic that actually our mission. Well, I went with them because I had Covid pneumonia and I needed to get that blood work done to make sure that my blood cell counts and all that stuff were intact and liver, kidney enzymes were intact. There was a lot of death in the sport.

In bodybuilding.

In bodybuilding. Over the last couple years, really over 40, 40 people died. The guy that beat me in 2018. Sean Roden passed last year, so I had to, you know, go on tour with a lot of these guys and meet their families. And, you know, I always say, you don't know what you don't know.

Where are the deaths coming from?

We don't know. So you could say it's anabolic steroid use, Right. You could easily say that's the first thing someone's gonna say. Well, it could be a combination of that. It can be a combination of, you know, were they just too big during their off season? Because if you're £300, you're £300. I don't care if you're a muscular.

That's a lot in your organs.

Exactly.

So joints, organs.

And then. Are you really getting a physical? Every woman that watches this gets a yearly. How many men get a yearly?

Unless you're playing college sports, you know.

And when I say yearly, like, yearly. Physical. Real physical. Right. I'm 42 years old. I raised my hand saying, I didn't get my prostate exam. They probably should go do that. Should probably get routine blood work. And then I thought, well, okay, if you're not going to compete this year, what can you do to help the sport that you love? Get with a company that will help provide blood work for athletes. Not to make it mandatory, but to give them an option. Because you got choices and consequences. Right. So you could say, well, these athletes, maybe not. Maybe they feel like they can't afford it. Maybe they're just scared to do it, but maybe they need to hear from someone like myself. So using my platform and actually getting with a company that's I can actually speak to, and that's the beautiful part about being who I am. I can actually sit down with CEOs and actually have dialogue. Sure. And ask questions. And one of the questions was like, would you guys be interested in partnering up with the Olympia and whoever qualifies for Olympia? Maybe we give them a discount or a free blood pill just so they know certain things. And if they wanted to get it done repeatedly throughout their prep, they can. So in the event that there was a marker that is out of whack, at least you're informed.

You can catch it hopefully early.

You can catch it early on. If you're a female that says, you know what? I want to have kids, you catch it early on now, you know, so it's all about gift giving. I can easily just say, oh, yeah, I work with this hormone clinic, and I'm on, you know, testosterone just to Keep myself going and feeling energized and this and that. Or I could say, you know what? I want health benefits for athletes. I want to make sure that we don't see death. Right. I want to make sure that these guys and girls are doing the things a more healthier way. And if they don't have. Because not every pro is making a ton of money. See, so. And maybe they don't have those resources available to them.

Sure.

If I can bring them those resources through what I've accomplished, then that's not for me to be on some pedestal. That's for me to share. That's for me to say, don't worry, you're gonna be okay. Because I'm very thankful that I'm 42 years young and I get my blood work done every three, four months. I know what's out of whack. I know how to adjust it. The beautiful thing about being a competitive bodybuilder is that you do know how food works. Yeah. You know how PDs work. You know how everything works. But it's about having a certain type of understanding that you can just sleep well at night. So, you know, that's another endeavor that I'm very excited about, you know, and a ton of other things. You know, overall, my goal is to be a man of service no matter what. And whether you're a competitor, whether you're just a person that's just wanting to look good, to feel great, have the confidence. Sure. Look no further. I'm your guy. Like, I'm your guy that will visit with you. No shout. No. No shade to any other professional athlete. But I'm more accessible. Sure. Sure. I can go to a local gym. We don't have, like, professional training facilities that only we can go to. Yeah, I can go to a local gym. I'm around. You can ask me a question. And this is about your life. I used to drive to the gym, and I cut through this cemetery to get there a little faster. And I remember having the guys from Flex magazine, Muscle Fitness with me in the car, and they're like, why are you going to. Why are you talking about this? And I said, everybody's going there. Everybody. You see people embracing each other, see people crying, see people laughing. You see people celebrating. You see people. I mean, mourning hard. And I have an opportunity to do something that I never thought I could do growing up. I have a privilege of being a professional. Professional at something where I get paid a lot of money and get to now share my experiences with people. Yeah. I'm working toward that. I'm working toward if something, one day I'm going to be in the dirt or be in the ocean or whatever. But what will people. Oh, man. Holy smokes, son. Come here, grandson. Come here. This man right here changed my life. This is Phil Heath. Well, who's Phil Heath? Well, he's seven times Olympia, but it wasn't even about that. I met him at a store, and he was signing autographs. He talked to you. He held you. When you're a kid, took a picture with you. That's cool. I'll show you, too, when you get home. I can't believe he's buried next to Grandpa. I look forward to that because I get to meet so many people. So I want to meet everybody. This world better open up, and it's better stay open.

I know that we're going to hug everyone.

I have to. I want to cry with them. I. I really do. Yeah. Because I know right now people are dealing with so much pain, so much adversity, and so much uncertainty. Young men, grown men need strong men because the world is messed up, but it always has. But I just feel like right now, like, if I don't speak up, if I don't have these moments, if I don't put myself out there, if I don't let people see me, hear me say it's okay. I'm going to meet people this weekend. I want them all to just. I didn't even bring an autograph. I brought no merch. People were like, why are you bring merch? My team, like, why didn't bring merch? I'll be too busy selling merch. Mm.

Just want to say hi to people, hang out.

Yeah, I'll have the same. You know, I even told the organizer, you don't have to give me this massive booth. Just give me a stand.

Yeah, say hi to people.

I just want to say hi because you can buy. You can buy stuff another time. I actually took everything offline because I just. I needed time to just recalibrate everything. And this is what I like. I love competing, but I love meeting people. Anyone that is lined up to meet me at an event will probably tell you the same story, which is it didn't matter what you look like, it didn't matter what if you're buying something or not. I gave you my time, and I want to continue to do that now. I know I only have so much time to give, but I'm going to give it. I will give you my time because I love to Talk. And I love to hang out with people, and I know everybody has a story, and I don't want everybody. I don't want people to feel like they're alone. I don't want people to feel like, oh, this guy has this big ass exterior and he's. And he has no depth. Or they have all these questions and they're afraid to ask. It could be the dumbest question in the world. It could be the most common question in the world. I'm gonna give you my time. Yeah. And I think that's it. I think that's something that people need.

Yeah.

Because I. I have to finish this back nine of my personal golf course.

Strong.

Yeah. I gotta do it, man. Because I know without focusing on money, there's enlightenment that awaits. And my future self depends on how I stay in gratitude during these moments in time. Absolutely, man. My future self depends on how I handle the good, the bad, and the freaking ugly. And how much personal work am I willing to do. I literally have had to make some nasty. I shouldn't say nasty. I was gonna say nasty phone calls, but I hated confrontation. Yeah. I hate it with friends, family, et cetera. I've had to make those phone calls.

That's good, man.

Confronts and say, this hurt me, or if I hurt you, I didn't know. And I'm apologizing for that. I can't go back and change it, though. But I can change who I am today, and I have done that. And if you feel that, great. If you don't. Karas are up, man. I gotta keep going, though, chatting with you, and I gotta go. I got more things to do. Overall, brother. I just want to continue to impact this world. I just want to do in a different space. I don't want to have to. To wear posing trunks to do it. You know what I'm saying?

I love it, man. I'm excited to watch the documentary wherever it comes out. But at the film festival or on the streamer or wherever it is on TV and the movies, you've got amazing content, man. I love your inspiring content on Instagram. People can check you out there. Phil Heats on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all the places. YouTube as well. This is a question I ask everyone at the end. It's called the three Truths. Okay, so imagine a hypothetical scenario. It's your last day on earth, many years away. You live as long as you want to live. You accomplish everything in the back nine. Maybe you go 18 more rounds, whatever it is, and you live a beautiful rest of your life. But for whatever reason, everything you create, all your content, your information, the videos of you, social media, this interview, it.

It's gone.

It goes to another place. So when you go, all your information goes with you. No one has access to it anymore. But you get to leave behind three lessons with the world. Three things that you know to be true from all of your experiences that you would leave behind as your lessons. And this is all we would have. What would you say are yours, Phil? Three truths from you.

Be as vulnerable as you can with yourself and with the people who you love. Learn from every mistake and always have faith in yourself.

I love those, man. I got one final question for you, Phil. Before I ask it, I want to acknowledge you, man. It's been a pleasure to connect with you here and to see someone who is the epitome of a strong, masculine man be vulnerable. You know, you haven't had a perfect life and you've made mistakes and things. No one's perfect. But you are the image, literally on covers of every magazine, of what it means to be the biggest, strongest, most masculine man in today's society. Projected right? Winning the Mr. Olympia seven times in a row, all these different things. And yet you show up with a vulnerable, service based heart. And I really appreciate and acknowledge that from you.

And thank you so much.

Sharing how to be okay with yourself as a man when you lose or when you get second place or third place, that it's not the end of the world, that it's just a lesson. And there's another element for you to grow from that. So I really acknowledge your journey, your growth, your incredible success, and where you're at now in your life, man. It's really beautiful. And I'm excited to see what you create moving forward.

I am too. And I just want to tell you it's a real honor and privilege to be here with you and share this time, because I think timing is everything. We could have done this years ago, not have the same interaction, and I definitely was not in the same space. So I always look at these moments of saying thank you because you allowed me a safe space to be that way.

Yeah, of course, man.

And that says a lot about you as a human being, because it's. In order to get that out of me, you have to have a good heart. Yeah. So I appreciate that very much. And I wish you all the best as well, because, you know, life throws you a lot of curve balls, brother, but you can step in the batter's box and take a freaking swing, man.

Absolutely.

I know you're doing it, and I wish you nothing but success. But most importantly, you know, just that confidence of knowing that you're giving it everything you got, that you can want more. And I know you already have it. You want more. Because I want people like yourself to elevate. Because when you're friends with people or you look at people like yourself, to me, I'm like. I like what he's doing. Proximity is everything.

Yeah, man.

I want to be affiliated with real people that are doing.

Yeah, man.

That want more, though. And I know you want a ton more.

Of course, man.

And I love just getting started, man. That's what I'm saying. Just get. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's like, I just want to see it, because how cool would that be of allowing, like, this space and time and you've met a ton of people. You can only be so called friends with so many people. But just to know, like, over, what, 1300 episodes and stuff. I look at that and I tell myself, why not me? And why not right now?

Yeah, of course.

And I have that Van Halen right now. Yeah, right now. It's good, man. Can't wait for tomorrow. Yep, Right now. Come on. It's everything.

Yeah, right.

I'm gonna probably have to come out to that next time. That's good, man, because think about it. Right now, and right now, you're doing this. Right now, we're having this. Two masculine dudes, like, talking about stuff that really impacts our lives and other people's lives. And I just pray to God that people receive this as well as they can. Of course. I want to tell you. Thanks, bro. Of course.

I appreciate it, man. I got your back. Final question. What's your definition of greatness?

How you impact other people's lives to do great things. I believe in a higher power. I believe in God. So he gave me a lot of cool things, but in order for him to be happy, I had to use it, and I gave it him all the. All the glory because I have used a lot of it, and I've messed up a lot. But, you know, I continue to work harder just to show him that, you know, you gave me a lot of great things and I didn't waste it, but I feel like I have an opportunity to give people something, too. Maybe it's just a reminder of who the hell they are and go after it, but just having that will to go after it when the chips are down and having that journey and that story of triumph, that's what Develops greatness. You have to go through it.

Yes.

It ain't gonna be perfect. In order to be great at something, you must learn how to deal with the crap.

Yeah.

And it ain't the same crap as your crap. Mine is different. And you're in a different phase in your life than I'm in in my life. I can't come, therefore, I can't compare. You have to strive for your own personal greatness. Everything you do. And that requires vulnerability. That requires a heavy faith based system, in my opinion. And you just. In order to overcome fear, you have to become freaking fearless and be okay with just knowing who the hell you are. And say it. It's okay to be great. It's okay to say it. We did it. This. This big. I'm gonna be the best soccer player. I'm gonna be the best lawyer. I'm gonna be the best. And it stopped at 13. It definitely stopped at 18. It stopped at 30 because people stopped asking you. Don't worry about everybody asking you. You tell yourself, I'm here to be great. I am not here to blend in. That is lame. I'm here to stand out. Because when I stand out, I know in my heart that I gave it my all and I became great based on caring about my dreams and creating reality and knowing that life has to suck. When I go through stuff, I'm like, ooh, this burn. This hurts. What's on the other side of that pain? Greatness.

That's it, man.

That's it, man.

There you go.

Yeah.

My man, Phil. The gift keeps on giving. You know, I appreciate it, man.

Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys. So share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I. I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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