Can You Make Money & Also Be Spiritual? w/ Jay Shetty [AWKWARD THERAPY] EP 1298

The reason why people think you either have to be spiritual or financially successful is because they think, well, if you're going down the spiritual path, money can be a distraction. Or if you're going down money, then spirituality will distract you. And that is true.

But welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome back, my friend. I am so excited about today's episode. I'm bringing on my good friend Jay Shetty, who's a number one New York Times bestselling author, award-winning storyteller, top podcaster in the world, and truly a dear friend of mine. And we wanted to come together for a fun series that we'll get into in just a moment. but I wanted to let you know that today's episode, which is all about spirituality and becoming successful, is only the first part of our conversation. The second part of our interview, which is all about intimate relationships, is going to be on Jay's podcast On Purpose later this week. So make sure to go follow his feed wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss out on the second part of this conversation. You can also find the link in the description to his podcast as well. If this inspires you in any way, make sure to share this with someone that you think needs to hear it and let us know what topics you would like us to cover more in this series about awkward therapy conversations. Okay, in just a moment, myself and the one and only Jay Shetty. All right, welcome everyone. Me and Jay are here. and a year ago, Jay and I were having conversations and we said, wouldn't it be interesting if we do a new series where Jay's got one of the biggest shows in the world. I've been doing my show for a long time. And we said, what if we could come together and do a different topic, a different theme, a different style of conversation where we're typically interviewing other people? And I said, let's create something where it's like awkward conversations or awkward therapy, right? Where neither of us are therapists. but Jay has this incredible background from, you know, being a monk and really being a meditator for a long time in your life and having the mindset of this monk mindset, where I've had the more of the athlete mindset, playing sports my whole life at a high level. And we said, what if we could bring our real world experience from these different perspectives, come together and answer kind of challenging questions that we get a lot from our different audiences? And so we're, we're creating. This is part one of awkward. therapy. And we've been trying to make this happen for a year now. We're finally here. So what's the first question that we are going to answer? The first topic that you think we should really dive into?

I was going to start off, Louis, though, by saying that the thing I love about this is we have these conversations anyway.

All the time.

All the time. All the time. And so for those of you that don't know, me and Louis always make sure that we see each other at least once a month to have dinner together, go on a hike, hang out. And that will inevitably turn into this...

It's a four-hour conversation.

It's a four-hour conversation about life. Yes. And we just thought, how cool would it be to have those conversations that are uncomfortable, that are pressing on taboo topics, that are a bit thought-provoking, pushing on the side of like, oh, that feels really awkward and uncomfortable. Because I think that people are thinking this, but they don't have a place to say it.

Yeah, and we say to each other, and I'm like, I don't know if we could say this outside of this private conversation, or if we we're gonna get a lot of backlash or, oh, maybe I shouldn't have said that Jay, you know, these conversations that it's just like, how can we create a safe environment to have open conversations? I love what Emmanuel Acho has done with his conversations with a black man, right? It's like these kind of uncomfortable conversations. How can we just put these things out there and be open-minded to it, not be so judgmental or critical? There's no right or wrong, but we're gonna come together and have conversations to try to figure out some solutions to some of these bigger questions that a lot of people have.

Yes.

And obviously you've done a lot of work on your own and you've interviewed and are friends with a lot of top elite individuals in different walks of life, myself as well. And so we wanted to bring it together and see what we can come up with.

I love it. I'm excited.

I'm very excited. We've been trying to make this happen for a year. So this is Awkward Therapy Part One. And the first topic of discussion is what?

Yeah, so the first question that we were going to address today is, can you be aspiring to be wealthy or make money and be spiritual at the same time?

Yes.

That's the first question.

And I think a lot of people growing up, I think both of us probably growing up had these limits around People who had money and thinking, are they good or bad people? Are they controlling? Are they mean to people? You know, if you have money, can you be a good person or have some spiritualness to you? Or is it only one or the other? You can either be Mother Teresa and serve, you know, you can only be Jesus and watch people's feet and be, you know, humble, or you're this money hungry individual, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think that when I was growing up at least, I grew up in an environment where the people around me believed that if someone was wealthy or someone was rich, that they must have done something dodgy or bad to get there.

Like illegal or sketchy or- yeah, it.

Must be sketchy or illegal activities or they must have stabbed someone in the back or they must have hurt someone or they must be taking advantage of someone or manipulating someone.

Using, abusing.

Using and abusing. That's the only way they could have got there.

Really?

Yeah.

And generally, the idea that we all know of that money is the root of all evil, I think that was something that I was exposed to a lot as a child, where a lot of people around me believed that, and we weren't wealthy, so we weren't in a position of financial strength. And often my extended family and others would look to people with wealth, and if we would admire that or see something, they would be quick to dampen that and be like, no, no, no, no, no. They just do all this kind of stuff. And so I think there was always that negative view towards people who are rich.

How do we get to a place of, should we admire people that are wealthy? Should we look to that and say, it's really cool what they've built. Should we admire the accomplishment of amassing a ton of wealth? Or is that not something to admire?

You always ask the best questions, man.

This is like... You know what I mean?

It's such a great question.

Do you admire the results or do you admire the person they've become on the journey of accomplishing the results and how they, the actions they had in order to get there?

So, this is my interview, Louis. I'm going to make you ask your question first. I want to hear your answer. I know what I want to say.

Well, I think this is interesting because I was going to ask you about... I know, I was going to have a conversation about how you first, because I remember having this conversation years ago with you where you never thought that, like, making money was for you. You were just, like, struggling in New York City, trying to make it and kind of live, like, month by month in a sense. And you told me you kind of had this limit around, can I be spiritual and make a lot of money? Can I serve the world, make, you know, wisdom go viral and also Is it okay to receive money? Is it okay to like charge what I'm worth or charge more for my services? So I remember having this conversation with you and I was like, I vaguely remember what I said. I said, you, know, I think you're doing a disservice to yourself by not generating more to be able to then hire more people to scale this message beyond. So you're not putting all the weight on your shoulders to be able to invest in more nutrition and food and comfortable sleeping space for yourself, all that stuff. so you can serve at a greater level. And so I think I'm answering the question where I was like, I think if you're doing your life and you're being in service and being the best you can be as kind as possible to people on that journey, then I think it's both admirable and it's cool to see what you could create financially as well with the impact you're creating in the world. But it's all about how you show up on the day to day, how you treat people, in the journey of amassing the wealth. I think that's a good point. But if you've generated a lot of money, but you've been a jerk or you haven't been in service except for to yourself only, then that's not something to admire as a whole man perspective, I think.

Yeah.

That's my thought.

I think that's beautiful. I love that. And I remember that conversation as well. And I want to go back to that question you asked though, because it's such a powerful question that should we admire people who are wealthy. And I think we have to be careful about what we admire, because what you admire will be what your actions aspire towards.

And you'll start taking on those actions.

Correct. You'll start taking actions and behaviors and decisions towards what you admire. And so I would say that I've always admired people who had a purpose. that's what I admire deeply. When I meet someone, I say there's two things that I admire, purpose and humility. Like if I meet someone who has purpose, they're willing to sacrifice, they're willing to do whatever it takes. They are mission driven. They want to serve the world. It's why I was always a fan of yours from before we even met. And we knew each other because I was like, oh, here's a person who really wants to do good in the world. Here's a person who really wants to give. And so I think that's the first thing I look for. And then the second thing I deeply admire is someone who has humility, someone who I feel that they were really doing it from the goodness of their heart. So I think for me, my admiration has always been for those two things. And I don't think I can tell someone whether what they admire is right or wrong, but I would say that if you admire something, your actions are going to start dictating your journey in that direction. And so you have to be careful what you admire.

Mm-.

Because that's what you're going to chase.

Right.

And so I would say that I like admiring purpose and humility because I think they are worthy of a pursuit.

Sure. Who are some people that we could think about, you know, who have amassed a lot of money, but also we feel like are purpose driven and in service to whatever their gift is? Who are some people that we can think about?

Yeah.

I wasn't thinking about this beforehand, but I'm just curious about who is living that lifestyle right now.

Yeah, and that's a tough question. And I think, I mean, I'd say we know a few people in our own world. I think people that I've always admired and looked up to are anyone from, like I'd say, that's a hard question. There are people that are coming to my mind right now, but I'd probably say that, I think Oprah's work's been phenomenal. The conversation she's had that have shifted culture or shifted humanity on her TV show.

Because she's brought in an entertainment TV show, but brought in the elements of healing, of prayer, of meditation, of spirituality, of creating consciousness in the planet, which I think is powerful. So she's bringing purpose to entertainment. and she's built a massive empire financially, been rewarded for that service.

Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's a great thing. I think that's the reason why I find this question so interesting because if we're saying that spiritual people can't be rich, that means that spiritual people have to be poor. That means all the people that are rich are not spiritual. Is that the world we want to live in? Do we want to live in a world where the wealthiest people or the most externally, people who have the most resources are people who do not have spiritual intention. I do not know if that is the world I want my kids to grow up in or the world that I want to live in. I would rather grow up in a world where the most influential people had a deep spiritual intention.

-Yes. And with that spiritual intention, they were, I guess, were rewarded financially for their level of impact and service. the challenge, the interesting thing is if you have that much humility and you have that much spiritual intention towards your life and service, does the money matter?

Yeah.

Does it matter as much like the more you earn and does it really impact the individual's life if they have a million dollars or a hundred million dollars? That's the interesting thing also.

Yeah, I mean, I'm interested in hearing your point because the perspective you gave to me a few years ago when you brought up that point, like, I remember having like hundreds of millions of views and then four months away from being broke.

I remember this, man. It's crazy to me to think that.

Yeah, and it was really true. Like, I would sit in meetings and people would be like, how many views have you had now? And I would share that and I was getting all this incredible feedback. And then I didn't have any money and I was literally gonna be broke in four months. And what I realized was that that was negatively impacting the amount of impact I could have sustainably long term. And it's what you said to me that what if you're making money, but then you're investing that in your team? What if you're expanding and creating more opportunity like today, where we have teams across the world, you have your team here, I have my teams who are also living their purpose.

Yes.

And we can only employ them because there's growth in this regard. And then they're getting to have a deeper impact. So To me, it depends on what scale of impact you want to have.

Yeah, and I think also spirituality for me is harmony. It's having peace and inner peace. And if you're financially stuck or you're financially struggling or you feel trapped in financial debt and confusion of financial aspect of your life, then I feel like that's holding you back from your spiritual progress. So it's figuring out how to have harmony and balance in these areas of your life, in your relationships, and your health, and your finances. For me, it's so key and going deeper spiritually in all of those, so they're all abundant.

Yes.

If one is not abundant, then are you maximizing your spiritual capacities of this lifetime?

That's beautiful. That's well put.

And so I think it's, and I think so many of us grew up thinking that money was the root of all evil or people with money were bad or this and this, whatever we thought of. But I think it's time to start changing the narrative and saying, okay, I'm gonna use money for good. And how can I make a commitment to myself to use some of my money to be in service of other people, not just all for myself or needing the flashy cars or things. We both like nice things. You like fashion and experiences. I love travel and adventure and healthy foods and investing in that. you know, we take care of our health, we have trainers, nutritionists, these things. I think it's important so we have more energy and capacity to be of service. So I don't think there's anything wrong personally with making a lot of money or having focus on profit and purpose.

Correct.

But I think you want to have both so you can scale both. There's a lot of people who are so well intended, who have big missions, but don't know how to make money to serve their mission. and they're doing a disservice to their cause because they haven't figured out the skill of copywriting or enrolling people in fundraising or sales or some skill to bring in revenue to support the cause or the mission. And I think that's where a lot of nonprofits struggle with these years is they're not thinking about all these other things they have to do to serve.

Yeah, yeah. And I like that because I also want to clarify that for someone who is spiritual or is conscious or is awake, whatever word you want to use, or even is in focused on personal growth or self-development their goal is not profit. Their goal is their purpose, their mission, their service. But they recognize that this is something that they have to think about and organize around.

Yeah.

In order to serve the purpose. So I think it's more about what's your top priority? Like, you don't wake up in the morning every day going, how can I make more money today? Like, that's not the mindset. You wake up in the morning going, how can we serve more people? How can we have a greater impact? How can we help more people? And you realize that creating a profitable business or income is a part of that purpose. And I think that's the clarity that we need.

Yeah, our measurement for our company is to serve 100 million lives weekly to help them improve the quality of their life.

Exactly. It's not to make X amount of money.

It's not to make $100 million a year.

Totally.

But in the, okay, how do we solve this mission equation, which is we want to reach 100 million lives weekly, what does that take? Well, most of it is through video right now. Video, through audio content, through social media, through books, through these different ways to scale a message.

Right?

A different way to scale a message, which takes money, resources, and a team to execute on these different challenges in business to reach that mission. And so it's thinking, okay, we need more people to support on the team. That's gonna take more money. So how do we make the money to hire people to serve the mission? And through the process of figuring out the purpose equation of how to solve that purpose conversation, then you need to figure out money that's tied to it.

Yes. And I also want to make that point that you have to be really vigilant on this path so that you don't buy into your own hype in the sense of it. You can convince yourself of anything, and you could convince yourself that you're serving people and you're doing this and doing that, and then you make loads of money, and then you just convince yourself that it's all okay. And so, yes, you have to be more vigilant on this path. I don't think it's fair to say that. Oh, it doesn't matter. It's all good. You've got to check your- what do.

You mean vigilant on what?

So you have to remain accountable in some way to make sure that you are continuing to do good with the greater facilities and responsibilities that you have.

As opposed to, oh, I just made $5 million this year, $20 million this year, and I'm getting all these accomplishments and awards and recognition. So figuring out how to stay humble and confident.

And purpose driven.

And purpose driven at the same time.

At the same time to not get carried away by an opportunity because of that. And so what I'm saying is that I think people often say that, you know, like the reason why people think you either have to be spiritual or financially successful is because they think, well, if you're going down the spiritual path, money can be a distraction. Or if you're going down money, then spirituality will distract you. And that is true. That is real. Like, you can get really materialistic. trying to be spiritual.

Sure.

And you can become distracted from your materialism by being spiritual. That is true. But the goal of life is to live in that Paradox, like in that middle point of trying to figure it out. So I often say to people, like, I don't consider that we've. And I know we both feel this way. We haven't figured it out. We don't know. We don't know everything about everything, but I'm trying to toggle with that because I believe that the truth is in the middle. the truth isn't in the either or.

Yeah, I think it's interesting. I want to talk about also how we have individually stayed accountable, humble in our growth and our trajectory individually, because there's at one point where I had no followers. At one point, you had no followers, and we had no business. And now both of us have, you know, an Ascension of audience, of opportunities, of money, of accomplishments, awards, things like that. I'll ask you first and then I'll answer. How have you- Stop asking questions, Lewis.

This is not this is the greatness.

But I'm curious how you have managed the rise to financial gain over the last five years and audience gain and recognition gain. How have you, and I'll answer it myself, how have you personally stayed humble in the process of the rise financially?

Well, I mean, yeah, it's like, that's what I mean by the vigilance, like in the sense of you can't ever be complacent about your inner journey. So if at any point you think you're humble, you're automatically not humble. If you think you're- so I need.

To stop saying that to my girlfriend. I'm so humble now.

Yeah, it's like if you think you're humble, you're not humble. If you think you've been really grounded, you're not grounded because that automatically cancels out the other. But at the same time, I would say that for me, what are my anchors? And I think I look at them as anchors. So my first anchor is impact is always greater than income. There is always more impact you can make. So I know that for me, what I'm trying to do with the work I'm doing is video was an entryway into a journey of transformation. I wanted people to move from videos to listen to the podcast, to read the book, to come to events, to come to retreats with me in India. Like, I want to help people go as far on their inner journey as they possibly can. That's my personal mission is if someone just wants to watch a three-minute video and it makes them feel better, that's beautiful. But if someone one day wants to come with me to India and live the life I lived and have a deep inward journey, then I want to be able to facilitate that. I'm still building that bridge to people's deepest selves. And so the first thing that always humbles me and grounds me is I've got a lot of work to do. There's so much suffering and pain in the world. There is so much unrest in the world. There is so much trauma in the world. So we've got a long way to go. So all the awards and the views, they give you confidence that you're going in the right direction, but you know you're far away from the destination. That's one thing. I think the second thing that really helps me is being around, still spending time with my monk teachers who have very different vision as to what is valuable in life.

Yeah, because they don't care about material possessions or money.

Totally.

They don't care. And so they're not impressed by that. and sort of be around people who don't admire certain things helps you lose taste for it. It's kind of like when I'm around-.

I'm just a man. Marcus Aurelius. Marcus Aurelius, the story is that Marcus Aurelius would walk through, I guess, the town and just have someone saying, you,'re just a man. When everyone was praising his name and kind of bowing to him and saying, you,'re like this god, right? And it's having that accountability that you talked about, people in your life that admit you for who you are, not for what you're creating in the world.

Yes.

Right? For just your kindness, your heart, you know, your humanness, not the brand that you have built as an individual. I think that's so important to have. My girlfriend, Martha, over Christmas, they did it, she's great. Over Christmas, they have this like little game that their family does where you pick out like a word that's gonna be your kind of your word of intention for the year. And it's supposed to be the word you need. Like everyone picks out a word. That's beautiful. I love that. And you hang it in an ornament that goes on like a tree, and then you look at it again the next year, and then you're always reminded of this word. And there's different words like confidence and self-worth and intention and all these things. And can you guess what my word was? These are random, right? So you don't know what it is. You pick it out and it's random.

Okay, let me think.

Love?

That's what we've been talking about, which is humility.

Oh, right. No way.

It's humility. I think you told me that. Yeah, I haven't, so it's humility. So she picked it out and you.

Read it in front of like, there's.

Like 20 of her family members. I had no idea about that. And I was like, humility, they're all.

Like, yes, you need that.

I was like, no, you are humble. No, I can say you are. I was like, I feel like I'm pretty humble, but funny when you said that, like when you're saying you're humble, you need more of it. And I think the thing is, It's always a great reminder, whether you're super humble or not, it's a great reminder because life will bring things to humble you if you do not consistently stay humble in your life. There's injuries, sickness, attacks online or controversy, whatever might come up in the world, and it's gonna continue to come up. But as long as you have the accountability and the right people in your corner who call you out on your BS and also celebrate you when you're doing good things as well. I think that's important to have.

I agree. I agree. I think life is a journey designed to disconnect you from your ego and dissolve your ego. If you think about life as that is the journey. And so as much as you willingly hand over of that journey, the less it's being pulled away. And what I mean by that is And it's what you said. When you really think about any success you have or any impact you've made, there is someone who has helped you get there directly or indirectly. So for you to say, I am self-made, it isn't completely true because there was someone indirectly or directly that helped you get there. So if I say that, you know, people appreciate how I communicate ideas today or certain ideas, I have to thank my monk teachers who taught me that wisdom. Or if someone says, Hey Jay, like you're really resilient or you've broken through a lot of challenges, but then you have to respect the people that tried to pull you down.

And so- that gave you the opportunity to overcome adversity.

Exactly. And so either way, there have been people who have helped you get to where you are. And so you can't claim the ego of, I did this all myself.

And I think there's also something to be said for humility and receiving acknowledgement from others and to yourself.

Yes.

And celebrating what you've also created. I love the acceptance award of Snoop Dogg, where he says something like, you know, and I want to thank me. I want to thank me for all the late nights, all the early mornings, all the hard work. And I thank me for never giving up on me. And I think there is this over humility sometimes, too, where people are like, well, I'll be like, Hey, Jay, it was so amazing what you did. And when people say, it was nothing, it wasn't me, you know, I get to praise everyone else. I think there's a spiritual way to receive accomplishments and be humble in your thank you, graceful in your thank you, receive it as well because you are showing up in a big way.

100%.

So you can be humble and also gracious in your confidence.

Yes, I think that's a great, great point. And I completely agree with you. I don't think it's, again, it's never either or. I think that's the point that whenever anyone tries to make it, it's like, should you be humble or should you be confident? It's like, Be both. Should I be successful or should I be spiritual? Be both. You can be both. And we need to be both because sometimes you are going to need to...

I agree.

When you reject praise or genuine acknowledgement, what ends up happening is you lose the opportunity for someone else to express gratitude. To give. You've blocked that ability for them to give.

You're robbing someone's gift.

Yes.

And that's a no-no. No, we'll talk about a whole nother session on the law of attraction and the hustle.

Yes.

But there's something to be, you know, and people that make money know how to receive because they receive money and there's a flow also. There's a flow to it. They, the ones who are really good don't hoard it, right? They let it in and they let it out. It's like a cycle and they're investing it and they're spending on people and they're building things. and they don't say, no, I'm not ready for money. Don't give it to me right now. It's the same thing, like you don't wanna block someone's acknowledgement or praise or opportunities and say, I'm not ready for it. Like take it in, receive it, be graceful, and you can also be humble at the same time.

Yeah, use it as fuel. Don't let it go to your head.

Right.

But you use it as fuel. So if someone gives you praise, you go, oh, thank you so much. That's amazing. Now I'm gonna use that to work harder.

Yeah. Right?

But you're not just using it to go, okay, it's gone through my head, now I'm gonna feel that. You're using it as fuel.

And so-- and I think that's why it's, everyone needs someone accountable to them.

Yeah.

Whether that's your partner. I know Roddy is that for you probably. Martha is that way for me, where she will celebrate me, but she also just gives me great feedback if she thinks I'm being over the top on something, which I never try to be, but-- yeah. It's just, even just her being there is a reminder to to stay humble.

Yeah.

You know, even if she doesn't have to say anything, it's just like, okay, I don't need to be boasting anything.

Yeah.

And having someone that you are inspired by in your life that can be that accountability is so key. I think having that community of not everyone that just says you're incredible all the time, but someone who keeps you grounded and also supports your growth.

Yeah.

Yeah. I I fully agree. And it's, it's. For me, the interesting thing going back to our original question is... Money and spirituality. Yeah, and going back to in context of this is, if you're proud of something that can be taken away.

It.

Will always leave you empty.

So you mean proud of your money?

Correct. If that's all you're proud of, of what you've done, and ultimately whether you die with it or you lose it before you die, it is gonna go somewhere else. It's going to be transferred, even if that's to your children or to anyone else, then that can be a very scary place to live. It can be a fearful place to live.

But you can never lose the impact you've made on people.

Totally like that. You know, and I think that's what I've noticed is that purpose is the only thing that keeps giving to you because it's such a, like, It's the only thing that can give to you without needing anything else.

And here's something else that I'm thinking about. There are a few people that I know, and I think you know as well, who have made a lot of money, but they still don't have that fulfillment inside. Or maybe their relationships are off or their health is off, but there are others who have made a lot of money and they are so fulfilled with so much joy because it's purposeful money. It's money made with a mission in mind. And I think that's what we need to be thinking about on our journeys is the money we're making. And I think money is great to have. It helps solve a lot of problems in our lives, but it doesn't solve the problem of fulfillment.

Yes.

And it doesn't solve the problem of inner peace. It might solve some peace. It might be able to help pay for challenges to overcome, but it doesn't bring us ultimate inner peace by itself.

Correct.

Unless we figure out purpose and mission as well.

Yes.

Money gives financial security.

Yes.

And financial stability and financial safety, which are all very important things. But financial stability does not equate to mental peace.

Right?

Like we know people who have financial security, But they are not mentally peaceful.

They're emotionally unstable.

Correct, because those two things don't correlate. Same with emotional stability does not lead to financial security. I know people who are really emotionally together, but they may not have figured out how to organize their business or their life to facilitate that. I would say I was in that bucket for a long time in my life. And so we've got to start seeing them as just two different pursuits. If I buy a ticket to LA, I'm not going to get to New York. And if I buy a ticket to New York, I'm not going to get to LA. You've got to pay for that ticket that you want. And then two different things.

An emotional regulation and emotional peace and making money are two different skill sets.

Yes.

And you have to study and practice the art of emotional regulation, of emotional peace. of inner peace. It has taken me decades to get to a place where I feel peace inside, right? And I know you went off to go on this journey when you were 21, 22 or something, because you didn't feel that early on in your life, and you were inspired by the monks that you met who came and taught, and you were like, I wanna go learn this and have this in my life. So I think it's two separate journeys. It's learning, and some people make money naturally, and it comes easier to them. and other people are just peaceful, joyful people naturally. I would say Roddy's like one of these just peaceful, joyful people naturally, just in her nature.

Yes.

Where other people struggle and have more depressed thoughts and they're more stressed out. And so it's a each are a practice. And they can both be very challenging, but so worthwhile pursuing.

Correct.

Because when you master both, it gives you even more peace.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I have friends that make, you know, I have friends that work their job, make their money, and then spend all their evenings and weekends with their family. And they're really happy because they know what their purpose is. And then I have friends that have all the money in the world that are unhappy. But then I also have the opposite, where I have friends who are doing their nine to five job and spending time every day and they have time, but they're not happy.

They're stressed.

Yeah. And then I have friends that are living their purpose, making lots of money that are happy. And so we need to stop equating money and happiness in the same conversation or money and success. They just provide different things. And like you beautifully said, they're different skills. And we have to decide, each one has to decide what type of life we want to lead.

And I think both are, I don't know, you tell me. Both are equally as important to learn at the same time because if you're putting your energy on making money, but then you can't sleep at night because you're emotionally stressed and you have no peace. But you figure out the money thing, your health is going to go to crap and your relationships are going to crap. If you're just zenned out all day and you don't spend time on figuring out the money side, then you're broke. And there becomes some stress around not having things to buy and pay for and going month to month. That has an element of stress. So they're both so important to be working on together, I think.

Correct.

I'm a big believer that emotional regulation is the key in general because it just makes you less reactive in all life situations. But finding a way to make money within a meaningful pursuit is so fulfilling as well. It doesn't feel like work when you're doing something meaningful and making your money around it.

And if you can't do that yet, I think that's one of the biggest issues too. is that doing a job just because it pays the bills and takes care of what you need and then having time to figure out your passions and what else you want to do, that's a beautiful place to start. That's where I started. I think that's probably where you started too. It's like you start with just a base and I think too many people hate on their current life because they want this passion life. But hating on your current life is just training yourself to hate on your future life. And I think we don't recognize that.

You'll never be happy where you're at.

Yeah.

And I'm not saying you're gonna love, like I would say I've done so many jobs in my life that I.

Honestly did not love.

Me too. But I choose and I did everything from stacking shelves at grocery stores to working in retail to delivering newspapers. I calculated the other day, I've been working now for 20 years because I started working when I was 14, 34 now. So I've been working for 20 years. and I've done, I would say that up until six years ago, most of the jobs I did, I didn't want to do. But all of them, I learned to take a skill that I use today. And so now when I look back, I'm like, oh, well, being a delivery boy taught me discipline because I had to do all the streets in my area without any reciprocation in the rain and. lugging around this, like, you know, delivery news thing, which didn't make me look cool. I missed out on hanging out with.

Friends, whatever, but it taught me discipline. And I think it's, you know, I had a lot of those jobs as.

Well, where I was a bouncer on.

The weekends at a nightclub. I was a bouncer on the weekend. So I was a truck driver during the day for, I only did this for three and a half months, and I was like, I can't do this anymore. Truck driver. Truck driver for six hours a day. I would drive a massive U-Haul kind of the biggest truck. before you had to get a special license for a truck. So imagine at the biggest U-Haul and I was driving for NAPA Auto Parts, which is like a car manufacturer. And I would drive two and a half hours from Columbus to Cincinnati, Ohio, and two and a half hours back every day and transfer these auto parts from one truck to another and bring others back up to Columbus. And the truck only went 55 miles an hour all the way to pedal the metal. And so I was just in the slow lane. This was before like really cell phones and all these different things. And I would do that during the day and I would do the bouncing on the weekend to make some money. And I remember thinking like, this is not for me. This is not what I was born to do. But I think in those situations, just like you had in your situations, it's figuring out how to be purpose in the thing you're doing, be joy, be fun, in those moments while you're thinking of like the next thing to get out of or how to get out of that into the next thing, what you want to be doing. And have you ever been to a restaurant where you have a waiter or waitress that's just like full of light, full of joy. They're so grateful. They bring a smile to your face. They remember the order perfectly. They just like want to make the experience incredible. You always hear these stories about get them getting hired and then going on to some other career because they brought the joy, they brought purpose to their career, to their job.

Yeah.

Which maybe they didn't really want to be at.

Yeah.

But that's how you get to the next place.

Yes.

By bringing that energy to the thing you don't enjoy and being purposeful anyways.

Yeah.

I think if we could start doing that, you're going to be a magnet for opportunities.

Yeah.

To finding your purpose.

I love that. There was, we were just in Rwanda and there was I don't drink alcohol, but I was with a group of people who were, and so there was a sommelier who was explaining the wine experts, like, telling everyone what's in the wine and all that kind of stuff. And the person I was with encouraged.

Him to.

He was from Africa, and the person who was leading the retreat asked the person to explain their journey to how they became a sommelier at this beautiful hotel that we were at. And he sat down and he told us his story. And it's exactly what he said. No way. Yeah, literally.

That's cool.

So he was saying that he worked at a restaurant, he was waiting, and then he was asked one night to choose a bottle of wine for a table. And so he chose a bottle of wine for that table, gave advice, and he was really good at it because he'd been doing his YouTube research and learning on the side. And he said that when he gave it to this person at the table, they asked him why this wine, why not the other one? They were really quizzing him. and because he'd done his research, he knew what to say. He said that at the end of the meal, that person who was sitting at the table gave him a card.

That was so cool.

And when he looked at it the next day, that was the owner of the brand of wine that he gave him.

No way. That is cool.

And that person just said to him, if you want to train to be a Sommelier, then, you know, we'll put you into training school.

That's cool.

And it's amazing. Like, you know, he He was so beaming when he was telling this story. He's so happy doing it. And for him, it was a big change because he was saying that the family he grew up in would have not been happy with him working in alcohol and whatnot. But it was his passion. It was what drew him there. It's just those kind of stories that melt my heart.

But if he showed up stressed that he was going to a job that he didn't like and saying, I really don't wanna be here.

I'm not doing the thing I wanna do.

Exactly. And let me just get through the night. Let me do the bare minimum. Let me show up and just get my check and go back. If we go through life in those moments where we don't want to be doing something, nothing good is going to happen for us. We're not going to create an energy that attracts financial abundance. And that's not a spiritual practice showing up being kind of half lazy, half disinterested, and just going through the motions. That's not a spiritual practice either.

Totally.

A spiritual practice from my perspective is being present in the moment and giving your fullest joy, giving your light, giving your heart to the moment. Yes. That's a spiritual practice. I'm not saying you're going to be able to have the energy to do that every moment of every day, but it's doing your best to get back to the moment and say, How can I be of service to this moment? How can I use my light? How can I use my gift, whatever that is, in this moment to serve? Absolutely.

What would you say is?

Yeah.

What would you say is the spiritual practice for you kind of day to day?

Yeah, I think the spiritual practice is how can I truly treat everyone I meet as an equal, as a human? How do I see them through equal vision? How do I not talk down to someone or talk up to someone? How do I truly allow each person the space to express themselves? and express myself to connect with them. And if I'm going to a place of work, if I'm going to a place of wherever I am, how can I show up believing that my positive energy and what I put out in the world will some way come back to me?

Yeah.

It may not- It's hard to believe that, though.

It's hard to believe that, but it will. I've seen sometimes, you know, it's like an investment. Like sometimes you make an investment and you don't see the benefits till 20 years later. But you're so grateful for it 20 years later because it almost surprises you. And that's how the world works. There's very few things that are instant in life. I would say that you probably feel you're living off of habits and disciplines.

You built 10, 20 years ago.

Totally. It's not like what you're winning in now is what you just did yesterday. It's stuff that you... When you were playing sport and developing as an athlete, All of those skill sets are useful today, even though you're not doing the same thing.

Absolutely, yeah. Similar to my athletic background, which you were an athlete as well, but you're more trained, you were the athlete of the mind, right? You were the spiritual athlete. You were getting up at 4:00 AM, sleeping on the ground, just being of service all day, learning, teaching, meditating, being with your monk community, and you had to go through adversity on a daily basis, essentially. You had to do uncomfortable things and be positive about it. In football, when you're doing three a days, it is not fun in 105 degree humidity and heat, showing up, putting pads on and getting smashed over and over again for two hours at a time, three times a day. It's not fun. But the coaches ingraining you attitude and how you show up for others. and in your team. In the team. And if you are missing the play, you're letting the whole team down. And it's how each individual shows up with a positive attitude makes the entire mission of the team move forward in progress.

Yeah.

But if you're stressed and overwhelmed and allowing the adversity of the moment to hold you back, then the team's going to be held back.

Yeah.

I think you did that in the Monk Community by constantly being of service, even if you're only getting two hours of sleep and in the heat all day, serving, you know, just asking for food and same thing in life. And it's, you're using that discipline now from 10, 15 years ago.

Well, I think what I see in you is that I didn't know you when you were an athlete back then, but I feel like the thing I noticed about you is that you're always bringing the most amount of value to everything you do.

That's the goal.

And whether I was, I, when I spoke at your Mastermind a few years ago, I saw how much value you you brought your community, and I saw how much success all of them have had and the journeys and careers they've had. And I want to talk about this, and I think it'll be useful for us to answer this together. I think one of the biggest issues that people have, so let's say first they recognize, as we both clarified, that we realize that money is an energy, that it's a resource. Money is not good or bad. It's defined by how you use it.

Mm-.

And if your goal is to use money for a higher purpose and for a mission, it can be a beautiful thing.

Absolutely.

You've established that. I think one of the biggest things that people struggle with, and this is what I wanted us to talk about, is people struggle with the idea of how do I charge for what I'm worth? Or I feel uncomfortable to charge for my services. I know coaches feel this way. I know therapists feel this way. I know people are in the service business. feel difficult to feel like they're allowed to feel comfortable to charge for their services because it's assumed that if you're doing good for the world, you should be doing it for free. And so let's address that mindset because I think a lot of people might be watching right now going, Louis and Jay, I'm with you, but I just feel really unconfident about saying this is how much my services are worth. Yes. And so I'll go first because I brought it up. Yeah, but I think it's the idea of like, The first thing I say to people is we know this, that when people are paid for something, including when I pay for something, I take it more seriously. I'm more likely to show up and be my best, and I'm more likely to complete. A great example of for us is a personal trainer.

Absolutely.

The reason I have that is because I know I've already paid for his time. I already know I paid for an hour. And if I cancel, I'm gonna lose that money. and if I show up and I'm not full energy, then I'm not going to get that much out of it.

Right.

If I haven't paid someone, I may or may not go to the gym. If I feel like it or not, I probably won't turn up. If I turn up to the gym, I might just be on my phone the whole time. By the way, if you're going to gym, you probably paid membership too. So the idea of the transaction of money forces a higher commitment and energy from me included.

Yes.

And from everyone.

Absolutely.

And so, of course, it's all based on affordability and privilege and access. Of course, like, I'm not telling people to pay more than they have, but the idea that when we exchange money for something, we value it more.

100%. And I think our friend Dean Graciósi says, you pay attention to what you pay for. And the more you pay for, you pay more attention to the thing that you've invested in or signed up on. If you buy a house and you spend a lot of money on that house, you're probably going to make sure the house is in good order. and you're gonna fix it up and you're gonna treat it well. You buy a new car, same thing. You're gonna not trash it, at least not right away, hopefully. But if you buy a car for a few hundred bucks, you may say, ah, if it hits a wall or if this is scratched, like who cares? 'Cause I didn't invest that much in it. So we pay attention to what we pay for. And I think you're doing a disservice to yourself and you're creating a model to everyone around you that you're not worth receiving of money. if you're not willing to charge or eventually charge more when you can deliver more value for that. And I think it's important to, and we'll probably talk about this more in another session about, you know, a law of attraction and the hustle and grind and the things around that. But I think when we, I think we should be constantly striving to develop more skills, add more value, and then in that process be willing to charge more.

Yeah.

Otherwise we're staying stagnant.

And I think you just hit an nail on the head. It's that you're charging for your skills that you've developed and you're not charging for the time, you're charging for the time it took to build those skills.

And the value you can deliver with the speed of delivery. Correct, correct.

Because I think a lot of people feel like, oh, I can't charge that much for an hour or I can't charge that much for X, Y or Z. But it's like you're not charging for that hour, you're charging for all the hours that it took to build that.

Exactly. And I think a good example for my personal life is I'm paying for a therapist slash coach right now that's, I pay her like kind of a lump sum for six months for a certain amount of sessions. But if I was to average the sessions out and call it per session rate, it's around 700 bucks a session for an hour and a half, which is probably the highest amount of any therapist out there.

Yeah.

So therapies, maybe 150, maybe 250 on the high end. Some of the celebrity therapists are 500 a session. So I'm paying above that and I'm paying it because I'm getting incredible results for my inner peace.

Yes.

And it's worth it. It's worth it.

You're also investing in your future.

Investing in my future forever. And the skills that I'm developing that will allow me. to have greater peace in my intimacy in my relationships, greater peace in my friendships, greater harmony in my business.

And.

Allow me to soar financially and with my mission. So it's like it's all around a good investment.

Correct.

Even if it's a three times more than the average, right? For me, it's worth it.

Yeah. Yeah.

And other people that may not make sense, of course, based on where they're at. Get it, but there is an investment that will make sense for you. And maybe it's not hiring a therapist or a coach, but it's going through a workshop online that you pay something.

For or buying a book.

Buying a book. Instead of something else. Or listening to our podcast, either one of those.

It's like, yeah, exactly.

But you're investing time. Yeah, your time. You're investing time to learn something and then investing and applying it and testing it. And I think that's just as, that's valuable as well.

And I want to address that. By the way, I feel awkward talking about money. We all feel awkward talking about money because we were told that it's a taboo in society. You never ask someone their wage. You never ask them how much money they make. You don't tell someone what your bonus was this year. So we've created a taboo in society to talk about money. And that's why most of us feel really uncomfortable where we'd rather not have that conversation. But the problem is then we spend all of our mind thinking about money because then we're like, well, they didn't pay me enough or they don't value me or I should have got a bigger bonus or I should have got a better promotion or my salary should be this. And so by you pretending or not even pretending, by you feeling uncomfortable to address money, you actually end up spending more time obsessed with the lack of it.

Yes.

And I think that's the pain that you're actually obsessing over the lack of money because you're scared of talking about it. And I know I've been there. Like, I know what that feels like.

And I think some things that people can think about as they leave this conversation is I'm so glad you said this because I was probably going to forget this. A mentor of mine early on when I was broke said, Money comes to you when you're ready for it. And I was like, I feel pretty ready to have some money because I don't have any. I feel ready. And he's like, It'll come to you when you're ready for it. And I was like, I didn't understand it. When you're lacking, it doesn't make sense. But it understood it as money started to come to me because I was like, I wasn't ready to manage the responsibility, the weight. I didn't have the knowledge on how to receive money, how to manage it, how to pay off credit cards and debts, how to automate things. Like I would have blown it because I didn't understand it enough.

So what you said right there is.

So important that we need to have conscious conversations about money.

And.

Be willing to be uncomfortable with your friends or family members that maybe you've never talked about money and start talking about it. I love normalizing the conversation so it's not scary.

Totally.

So it's not bad. So it's not this, I don't know, I don't want to talk about it. It's scary if you know these things. Letting go of the shame around money conversations. and do it in an appropriate setting with the right people, but be willing to have these conversations. You won't feel the pressure of it as much. And when it comes, it's not going to feel like you have to hold on to it as much. And you'll just be able to naturally flow in the world more with open conversations. So I think what you said there is so important we need to do.

Yeah. And I think that the reason we feel uncomfortable is because we've never been trained. And the reason why we decided to do this is because we're trying to have the uncomfortable conversation so that hopefully all of you feel encouraged. I've always found our friend David Bach. Yes, he has some really great stuff on like, I remember reading his stuff years before I met him about how much money to spend on rent and how much money to save and how to do this. Like when you first have like an income from a job. And I found that so useful because no one in my life has ever talked to me about this.

No one taught us this.

Yeah.

No one taught about it. if you're scared of talking about money, if you're scared of figuring out how to charge. And by the way, if you're someone who in your heart goes, Jay, I feel like I'm somewhat taking advantage of someone when I ask them for money, bring more value. Yes, bring more value over deliver, give your heart, and then you won't feel that way because you realize you're having a genuine impact on them. I realized when we launched some of our courses and programs, we studied how they improved people's lives and we saw that someone in our community who'd been part of Genius for 90 20 days, their happiness goes up by 40%. And we were like, that's incredible. Like, that's beautiful, right? And so when you start to measure impact, measure your impact, don't just create something and hope that it works. Measure your impact. You'll feel more confident. Really take the time to create an offering that genuinely improves people's lives. You'll be more confident. And then ultimately keep checking in with yourself to check, am I truly delivering or not.

Yeah.

One of the things we do every Monday, today's Monday, our team calls is we talk about what are some of the impact we're making on all the different programs and products and from the courses to the podcast, like we're the testimonials of the week. We have a big spreadsheet with all the testimonials that come in. Different people on the team read out what they kind of have ownership over, hear the biggest testimonials of the week, and it constantly reminds us why we're doing what we're doing. So don't neglect hearing testimonials, hearing the impact you've made on your friends' lives or if you have a freelance gig or a career, how you're being of service with your talents and your skills. You are living, you know, when you live in purpose, that is the fuel to keep going. You love it. I love it when people come up to us on the street and say, I'm listening right now. I read your book. It helped me hear two years ago, I found you and I got into this incredible relationship or I got out of this challenging relationship or I got in shape because of you or what you shared. It's fuel for our purpose to have more energy and go bigger at it. So be willing to receive that as well and start having these conversations. What else should we leave people with as we wrap up episode one of the awkward conversations?

I think my big takeaway from Today's conversation is we all have to evaluate our relationship with money. Do you have a positive relationship? Do you have a negative relationship? Do you have a neutral or void relationship? Most of us don't realize that we all have a relationship with money. If you don't talk about money, that's like not talking to someone.

Right?

That's what it is. If you don't talk about money, then your relationship is you don't communicate with that person. Then you can have negative communication. You have negative thoughts about that person. You have negative feelings towards that person. Or you have positive feelings and healthy feelings. Figure out your relationship. And the quote or the wisdom that changed my relationship with money was this beautiful thought by Martin Luther King, which was that the people who love peace, and I believe I'm a person who loves peace, I believe you are. that the people who love peace need to learn to organize themselves as well as those who love war.

Absolutely.

And what I realized was that the challenge with spirituality or positivity in the world was that it was not organized enough. An organization requires finances, businesses, structure, operations, implementation. And so to me, that was something that really made me realize that if I truly I believe I want to positively improve the world, I have to think about money. It's not my goal, it's not my obsession, it's not my priority, but I can't ignore it. Because if I ignore it, it's gonna negatively impact everything.

There's another viral quote online that says it's better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war. And I think we need to train ourselves to be prepared for the financial world, for the ups and downs of the financial world, for just the world in general that is has a lot of ups and downs and be prepared for all of it with a spiritual practice and a financial practice as well. I think that's the key so that you're not stressed when life comes at you with war. Yeah, because there will be some war at some point, whether it be metaphorical or spiritual war or we're on something.

Right.

And for us to be prepared on both financially, spiritually, and be working on both of those will be so key. So if you guys enjoyed this conversation, let us know in the comments below and tell us what topic you want us to go over next in this series with me and Jay. Also, make sure you check out Jay's show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, on purpose with Jay Shetty. Make sure you check it out, subscribe there, subscribe over on Jay's YouTube channel as well below. We'll have all stuff linked up. We're going to be doing a series of this going back and forth. So the next episode will be on Jay's show and then we'll come back here on the School of Greatness. So make sure you subscribe to Jay so you can get all the content we do together in this series where we're covering uncomfortable, unique taboo topics around life. So make sure to check it out, subscribe, leave a yes if you enjoyed this and if you want more and share what topic you want to see more of below in the comments on YouTube as well. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.