Find Self-Forgiveness & Write A New Narrative For Your Life EP 1284

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Terms and limitations apply in solitary confinement for people that don't know how much time do you get to spend with others? How much time do you get out of yourself? What is the day to day?

23 hour lockdown. Come on five days out of the week. Oh, but it was in that environment that I really began to examine.

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur, and each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. At 19, you're a drug dealer and you shot a killed man, right?

Yeah.

And at 17 you got shot a few times.

Yeah.

And how would you say that your childhood developed for you to get to a place to be in that environment?

That's a really profound question, you know, and it takes me back to my healing journey. And one of the parts of that healing journey started with reading this quote from Socrates, the unexamined life isn't worth living. So I was sitting in a prison cell in solitary confinement, being told that I would never get out of prison, really, let alone out of solitary confinement. And the thing about it is, I almost started to believe that because my neighbor across from me, this guy named Tony, a super fascinating guy, one of the most charismatic, charming guy, he can emulate voices like you wouldn't even begin to believe. He had been in solitary for like 20 years.

20 years.

20 years.

So in solitary confinement, for people that don't know, how much time do you get to spend with others? How much time do you get out of your cell? How much, you know, activity time? What is that? What is the day to day?

23 hour lockdown. Come on, five days out of the week. Oh, in 24 hour lockdown the other two days of the week. So for five days out of the week, you can go out to basically what's essentially dog the yard. Yeah. So they put handcuffs on you, put a leash on handcuffs, walk you out to this cage, and you're allowed to stay out there for like, you know.

An hour, hour or so.

And oftentimes, me personally, I would choose not to go out for a variety of reasons. Sometimes they were like feces wars, like guys just slinging feces. And, you know, I didn't want to be in the line of fire of that. And then other times it was just like it was in Michigan. So it could be extremely cold and you have the bare minimum on. But it was in that environment that I really began to examine like. Like how did I end up here?

And what got you into solitary? Because originally you're not in solitary confinement.

Yeah. So I got into a conflict with an officer and that actually ended up being two additional years in prison.

Oh, man.

What turned out to be four and a half years straight in solitary on that particular stint. Because how.

What was your original sentence for?

So my original census was second degree murder.

For how long? How long was it supposed to be?

17 to 40 years. Jeez. And so I ended up serving a total of 19 years.

Because you added two years with this.

Yeah, had two years added. And so that, that extended my time. But during this time in solitary, you know, it was a serious assault on the officer was the charge. We got into a fight, and because I was incarcerated, I got charged with, you know, a crime, a new crime. And, you know, sitting in that environment, I was reading that line, the unexamined life isn't worth living. And so what happened is, I asked myself this question, how did you go from an honor roll scholarship student with dreams of being a doctor to this being your life? And so I began to journal, and I began to unpack all the things that had transpired in my childhood that led me to that moment. And as I was journaling, I was like, how is a kid who has experienced this level of trauma even alive, let alone, you know, capable of just being like, hey, you know, what happened to my life? And why am I here? And so that journaling just peeled back the layers, and it was raw and it was ugly, and then it became beautiful and it became powerful because what I was able to do was to go back and reassign responsibility to the people who had caused me harm, who had traumatized me. You know, early in my childhood, that trauma started within my household with my mom, which was very difficult to write growing up and, you know, the kind of community that I grew up in, it was unheard of to say that this is abuse and that this is traumatizing me. So I. Early on, I began to accept that this was just the way it was. And so when I began to journal and unpack that and think about, you know, like, what that meant, I was able to say, you know, I wasn't responsible for those hits. I weren't responsible for those mean words. And as I got deeper into that conversation, I began to understand how that household trauma led me to running away when I was around 14 years old. And when I ran away, I was so naive, you know, I thought that one of my friends, parents would see this smart, you know, handsome kid and just take me in and wrap me in the love that I believe all children deserve. You know, it's something I'm so adamant about in my work. I think children deserve, like, love and care and kindness and, you know, all the things, you know, wrapped in structure. You know, they need discipline. And what ended up happening is for, like, two weeks, I just was, like, roaming the neighborhood. I was sleeping friends, garages, I was sleeping basements. You know, I was hustling food at the store. I would, you know, hey, can I take your bags to your, you know, car? And they would give me 50 cent, and I would, like, you know, go eat, you know, potato chips and cookies, and I was unbathed. And, you know, I began to get ridiculed by, you know, the older guys, like, hey, you know, you kind of dusty and like, go take a shower and get some sneakers and all the things. And like, a lot of kids who grow up in those experiences, I Was vulnerable. We don't talk about it a lot culturally because, you know, if you come from the streets, you have to be like, hard and you gotta wear that mask. But when you really get down to it, like I was a kid at 14, 14, and most of us are kids, we get looped into this very adult world and it's a seduction. And I, over the years, I began to actually reframe the language for exactly what it was. Right. What was, was the seduction of a kid into a culture, an adult culture. And what that looked like was, were.

You still going to school or were.

You more just so I was kind of going to school whenever I can shower and bathe and, you know, so I would go up to the school and what happened is there was an older guy in the neighborhood and he was like, hey, you know, I see, you know, what's going on. Like, you know, come rap with me, let's go get something to eat. And he took me to Burger King. And then he was like, you know.

Acting like he's gonna take care of you a little bit.

Yeah. He's like, yo, you need some sneakers, you need some clothes. If you come, you know, work this spot, this is the beginning of crack cocaine. The crack cocaine era, was it 19? This is like 86. Yeah. So this is when crack is just penetrating the Midwest, you know, this is Detroit, right? It's Detroit. Yeah. So we don't even know, you know, this is a new drug in the community. We don't even know how devastating it's going to be. And as a kid, you can't even begin to imagine what that is, you know. And so, you know, he takes me in, he's like, you know, let's go get sneakers and let's go get food and all the things.

And.

And then I'm in this crack house on the east side of Detroit. I'm in here and I remember the first time where I was like, this is scary is he brings me this sawed off shotgun and he's like, if anybody tries to break in, just shoot through the door.

You're 14, 15, 14 years old.

I've never.

Terrified.

I've never even shot a low caliber gun, let alone a shotgun.

That's terrifying.

It's terrifying. But I can't say that I'm terrified because that's not the culture.

You gotta act tough.

Yeah. And so it's like, you know, he breaks down the amount that I'm the sale and what I owe and then what I'll make at the end of the week. And so the end of the week comes around and it's 350, $400, mostly in singles and $5 bills. It's this big wide cash. And the first thing I do is go to the grocery store and I just buy all the cereal that Captain Crunch. It's like everything. Captain Crunch, the Lucky Charms, Lucky Charity, Pebbles. And then I buy like chocolate milk and strawberry milk. You know, the reality is I'm a kid, you know, I'm gorging this cereal now, but that was my entry into that culture. And within the first six months is when it got real. You know, my childhood friend was murdered. Oh, I was robbed at gunpoint. And then I became addicted to crack cocaine at 14 years old. You know, I was introduced to that again by another adult who's like, hey, this is cool. This is what we do. It's fine. We make a lot of money, you know. And so I had to navigate addiction in this adult culture as a 14 year old kid. And then after that, I ended up messing up the money because of the addiction. And they beat me nearly to the death.

Oh, man.

You know, and I remember being 14 years old, laying on the bathroom floor in a pool of my blood and asking this question, what kind of world do we live in where this happens to kids? And so that was my intro into that culture. And then over the years, you know, I began to become hardened. I began to put up the mask. And then when I was 17 years old, I got shot. And at that point, I was the third of my mother's sons to be shot.

Come on.

My oldest brother had been shot in the neck. My second oldest brother had been shot at that point. When I got shot, he had got shot in the army. And then he got shot again. He's currently paralyzed. He's been paralyzed since, I want to say, 1998. So high levels of gun trauma, high levels of, you know, gun violence within the culture. You know, I can't even tell you how many of my friends have actually been shot or murdered. And so at 17, sitting in the hospital bed, I'm processing this very traumatic event. And there's nobody there to help me. There's nobody there to say, hey, no.

Support, no family support, friends.

Yeah, I think my dad and my mom came, but I think they didn't even know what to do at that point. It's like I'm the third of their child just laying in the hospital bed with bullet wounds. And I can't even tell you how many kids in the neighborhood who they Saw grow up. You know, this was. I mean, and this is the height of that era. So, you know, 86 to 90, you know, this is like a very volatile time in Detroit, you know, and this is when crack cocaine is at its high, the war on drugs is happening. And, you know, it wasn't until I began to journal that I realized there should have been an intervention. And had I been from a different community with different resources, if somebody would have said, hey, you're going to need help, you're going to need a psychologist, you're going to need a therapist, you're going to need somebody to talk to and help you unpack this traumatic event.

Absolutely.

And that just didn't happen. And so what happened was I went back to my neighborhood with this narrative in my mind that if I get into a conflict, I'm shooting first. And I began to carry a gun every day. I didn't feel safe. And what you can't say, you know, when you grow up the way that I grew up, you can't say that, you know, that actually hurt when I got shot.

Nah, you have to say that.

It's like, ah, whatever, you know, I'll get back, you know, I'll get the guy the next day.

Finally, a couple weeks.

Yeah. Yeah. And so that's the mindset at 17 years old that I'm just like, yo, I'm hard. I'm standing on this corner. What I can say to my friends is every time a car pulls up, that I have anxiety because there was no language for anxiety. Nah, there was no language for paranoia. There was no language for fear. Because, you know, you can't be a tough kid growing up in the hood and be afraid. You know, you just gotta navigate it. You just gotta put the mask on. And so I wore that mask. But deeper than that was the narrative that I created that if I found myself in the conflict, I would shoot first. And 16 months later, at nearly 2 in the morning, I got into this conflict over a drug dealer that I refused to make. And that conflict escalated. And there was this moment, you know, that I always think back to where I turned to walk away.

You did?

And I turned to walk away. And what I thought was happening was that the person I was arguing with was attempting to get out of the car. And I just turned and fired four shots that tragically ended his life. And, you know, it's a moment that I played over for years of, like, why didn't I just take that second step, you know, and keep walking. Yeah. And it wasn't Until I was journaling that, I realized that the grip of the trauma of being shot would not allow me to make a different decision.

Yeah, because you weren't healed, you can't make a conscious decision from a hurt place.

Yeah.

You have to make that from a healed place.

Absolutely.

Or a healing journey.

Yeah.

You know, you got to be on that journey.

Yeah.

Interesting what happened after that incident.

So I was subsequently arrested. I was charged with open murder, and I was eventually sentenced to 17 to 40 years for second degree murder. And, you know, going through the legal process, I was like, psychologically, I was already traumatized. Like, I was just, like, so numb. And I remember at my sentence, you know, my lawyer telling me, you know, here's what you say to the family. And it was the most superficial apology.

Ever on what he wanted you to say.

Yeah. And, you know, I was still a kid, and so I trusted his judgment, and I just kind of went with this kind of rope apology. And that was. That was devastating, really. As I began to navigate. My prison sentence.

For you is devastating or for them?

It was for. I'm sure it was devastating for them, but it was devastating for me in the sense that I knew that I didn't communicate what I actually felt.

What did you actually feel?

That I had made a horrible decision that had caused them incredible pain. And, like, I was deeply sorry and just, like, it was something that I wish I could have took back and.

As opposed to, like, the scripted kind of clinical apology or gotcha, you know.

And so for years, I, you know, in prison, I just kind of beat up on myself, and I just internalized more of that pain, you know, and, you know, my first five years in prison was just, like, dark and anger filled and just I got into tons.

Of trouble and lots of fights or.

Lots of fights and, you know, disobeying the rules. And it's very recalcitrant. Like, I'm like, I'm not listening to no rules. And it was in that environment where. In that. In that dark space where one of what I call my three miracles transpired. And that first miracle was meeting some of the most incredible mentors in the world. And these were in prison. In prison.

Yeah.

Yeah. And these weren't like, you know, people who were coming to visit us to help salvage our souls were people who were just like, you know, you know, we want to come and help you fix your life. These were guys serving life sentences, guys who, if you, you know, really think about what a life sentence is, they had nothing to gain, you know, they were.

By helping you?

Yeah, by helping me. But these guys were brilliant. You know, these guys challenged me to read, to think. You know, they just challenged my thinking after I read, we debated. You know, they tried to give me guidance. And even though I didn't listen to them in a moment, you know, that. That wisdom later on became one of the most valuable gifts I've ever received. And, yeah, so that's what it was like the first part of the first five years.

Dark, you're getting into trouble. Some mentors are trying to help you. You're doing a little bit of the work, but you're still from a hurt place. You're still reactive. You still haven't healed the trauma or done the journaling and the healing work yet. And so what? Then five years in, you got into the fight with the guard which sent you into seven years solitary.

No, that came about three years later. The second miracle actually showed up in about that fifth year. And it came in the form of a letter from this woman named Nancy. And when I first got the letter, I'm just like, okay, who is this random person writing me? Because you didn't know what she was? Yeah, I thought it was just a pen pal. Because that's what happens in prison is like, people hear about your case and you just start getting these letters from random strangers who are like, hey, you know, I just want to be friends, etc. But it turns out Nancy was the woman who had raised David, whose life I was responsible for taking.

Oh, man.

And so Nancy writes me this letter. She wasn't.

She wasn't the mother.

She wasn't the mother. She was the godmother. Oh, man. She writes me this letter.

This is five, seven years.

About five. Five. Yeah. Five or so years in the School.

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And I remember opening the letter and her beginning to tell me who David was. You know, the father, the husband, the man, the friend. And I can tell you I wanted to ball that letter up. I was like, you know, emotionally it was just like a tidal wave of like, guilt and responsibility and all the things that I hadn't unpacked yet. And something was like, you have to read the letter. Or all the way through, you have to finish this thing. And I continue to read the letter and what Nancy said to me was like, despite the harm and devastation you've caused my family, I love you.

Holy cow.

And I forgive you. Because that's what God would want me to do.

Oh, my goodness. How did that make you feel reading that?

I was like, I went through kind of like a process of different feelings. First I just felt horrible because I'm like, this woman in a moment of her own hurt and anguish is giving me something that I didn't even know if I was capable of receiving, which was love and forgiveness. And I wasn't emotionally mature enough at that time to even understand, like, the power of like, you know, love. That's like spiritual love. You know, this deep, deep spiritual love. This principal perspective of like somebody's beliefs really aligning with what they actually do. I hadn't forgiven myself, so forgiveness was like, whoa, like, what is this? You know, what, what am I supposed to do with this? You know, But I wrote her back, you know, and I wrote her back and her and I embarked on this correspondence journey. And, you know, Nancy was essential to my personal healing in this way. What she said to me was that, I want to know what happened to that 19 year old kid that pulled the trigger that night.

What caused you to get to that space?

What caused me to get to that space? Wow. And so her and I began this journey of just unpacking a lot of the things. But even with that, it wasn't the kind of moment of just like where everything comes together right. You know, in storytelling, people often want just that one moment of like, it's your come to Jesus moment. Healing is a journey. Healing is a journey.

It may not be like, oh, I'm healed in this moment. It might be little moments that bring you closer to awareness.

Absolutely.

And then eventually, over time, it starts to mend and heal. And I remember a moment that I had. Not to go off track. I remember a moment I had where nine years ago I mentioned I was. You know, when I was 30, I opened up about sexual abuse for the first time. And I held onto it for 25 years. So I didn't even start to heal until 25 years later. And if I look back and I'm like, there's reason why I reacted in this way, in this situation, in this situation. Not saying it's okay or that I'm off the hook, but without having the tools to heal even the littlest of traumas, we could turn situations into horrible situations.

Absolutely.

We can choose bad things.

Absolutely.

And I remember I started my healing journey at 30, but I still had other things in my life that I hadn't started to heal. Other traumas. Right. From parents to previous relationships to whatever shame and guilt that I was holding on to. And it wasn't until about a year and a half ago in therapy, diving in very deep, where, like, I felt the pain in my chest that I had for so long kind of disintegrate. It was actually a moment, but I was like, this is almost 10 years of a healing journey. Then there was a moment that I felt like it connected, like, my mind to my heart and my body where my nervous system finally fully relaxed from that trauma. Now I'm sure I'm still going to have things that come up, and you, you, you go back and you have to learn and heal, and you go back a couple steps and you learn it's a journey. But there wasn't like this aha moment. The moment I talked about it the first time, it took me nine years.

Yeah.

And then I'm still going to need to learn how to heal, you know?

Yeah.

So that, so that happened for you with the letter about the correspondence was like, it was a moment of awareness, but it wasn't like, oh, I'm this loving, healed, no shame, human being anymore.

Absolutely. And you speak to something that really, you know, speaks to me. Right. Is that the healing journey, when you explain it, what we haven't created space for is the explanation without interpreting it as an excuse.

Right.

Like, I don't make any excuses for the whole horrible decision of that night. But I think it's important for people to really understand how we get to those moments. Like, I don't think that violence is born in a vacuum. I don't think that these acts that we see play out all the time in the world are things that just are in a moment or are born in us as human beings. There's all these things that happen. Right.

And I heal in a healthy, conscious human who's got, you know, on a healing journey or who's just processing Their pain, you know, processing trauma, when it happens, and learns how to do that, which they don't teach us these things growing up in school, parents don't teach us. You know, I grew up in Ohio was never, you know, share with me how you feel. You know, it was just toughen up. And in the sports field specifically, you fall down, you get hurt. It's just put the dirt on it and go back. Right. You're made fun of if you showed emotion in the sports field. Right. And so you just wanted to. I just wanted to fit in. You just wanted to fit in, and you couldn't. You couldn't show it in a tender, emotional side. And I think it's, you know, it's one of the reasons why I wanted to create this show 10 years ago during my healing journey was like, what are these tools that can really help transform human beings inside so we can have a healthier outside? We see all these, you know, all the pain in the world.

Right.

School shooting that just happened the other day. 19 kids. Right. And this is what, I don't know, 20 or 30 shootings this year so far.

Mass. Yeah.

It's. Whenever there's these mass shootings or this wars, it seems like a lot of times it's caused by men who are hurt, who are in pain, who haven't learned how to heal trauma. And there's no justification. There's no, you know, lack of responsibility by any of these acts. But I think you can see where that pain is coming from and how, like, man, this. This person had to go through a lot of years of trauma that was unresolved to get to this breaking point.

Absolutely.

And I think. And I'm so glad that you're doing the work you're doing, because for me, I know that if I didn't have some environment that was healthy and some friends that were good and some, you know, parental figures that were good, I could have gone down the same path. You know, my brother went to jail, told you about this, and it's like I could have seen myself going down that. With one decision.

Absolutely.

One action that just, like my pain gripped a hold of me and I made a dumb decision, and now I'm in jail for 5, 10, 20 years. So it's. It could be so quick. How one action can hurt a lot of people and yourself forever.

Yeah.

And I think the most important thing is teaching men how to heal their emotional wounds, their traumatic wounds today. Because a lot of the pain in domestic violence and community violence in schools and just the world the wars that people are having is from men who are hurt and haven't healed. And so I'm so glad that you're doing this work and you're talking about this, because when you're a young boy growing up as a young teen, I'll speak for myself. One of the main drivers is to try to get a girl to like you. It's like in our DNA or something, right? It's like, how can I get a girl to like me, to hold my hand, to kiss me to whatever it is. When you're like 10, 12, 14, you just want to be accepted by a girl that you like.

Absolutely.

So we're driven to do things to get the attention from a girl, essentially. Whether that's right or wrong, it's just.

Kind of like what drives us.

And this may sound not politically correct, but the challenge is I don't think women understand how to allow men to be emotionally vulnerable, especially when they're growing up. It's not accepted when you're made fun of, when you're picked on by other boys, when you're being sensitive, or maybe a girl who's saying, hey, what are you crying for? That's not sexy to me. That's not a turn on. Then boys start to toughen up and say, okay, I can't show my emotions because my buddies are going to make fun of me. I'm not going to get the girl and she's not going to think I'm a real man.

Yeah.

And so we kind of just put these masks on.

Absolutely.

Right. I mean, am I. Tell me if I'm wrong here.

No, no, I think you. I think you're right. And I think what it is, is that the culture, even for, you know, young girls who eventually grow into be women who want men to be mostly vulnerable, there is much of victims of it as we are, because they're told that, you know, the toughness, the mass, the indifference, you know, the bad boy, you know, imagery is what's a, you know, it's a turn on, right? It's the turn on. Right. And then as they go through their maturation process, they realize that, you know, there's something else that's needed and that vulnerability. And then I think from a cultural standpoint, as men, what we fail to do is to say, hey, you know, I actually love. Love.

Yes.

You know, I actually appreciate intimacy, you know, that, you know, as beautiful and as amazing as you are, what really is beautiful is that I can trust the conversation we're having is authentic. And I can be my true self. And I can say, you know, today this actually hurts. You know, one of the things I wrote about in a new book, I said, you know, as a boy, when I couldn't cry tears, I cried bullets. Like, that's our community right now. Right? These mass shootings are unexpressed sadness, they're unexpressed frustration, they're unexpressed insecurities. And while it doesn't excuse the behavior, if we grow to understand it, then we can actually better prevent it. First of all, because everybody can do a Monday morning triage, and we can all play Monday morning quarterback. But prevention is what we have currently available to us, and that prevention stars with understanding. If you don't understand, if you don't create space for men to actually say, here's how I really feel. You know, let me, let's, let's, let's take down the idea that you think about how I feel, but here's how I really feel. And like. And we have to do it with each other as men.

Absolutely.

And what I found is that, like, in my men's circle, I get so excited to talk about my friends because I can say to them, you know, I love you, brother. Like, I care about you. And how does your soul feel today? You know, did you do anything that was joyful? Are you fulfilled in your life and in your purpose? And we don't have to talk about numbers and metrics and all these other things that. That have been defined as the way that we measure our manhood. But I can do it because I'm willing to share those things. And I didn't get there overnight. Like, this was a journey unlike anything imaginable. And I would say that it did. The, the tipping point from the emotional growth started with the third miracle. Remember, I said that there was these.

Three miracles, so Nancy was the second let the second one.

Yeah. And so that third miracle was getting a letter from my son while I was in solitary. So this is after the altercation with the officer. I'm about seven or eight years into my sentence.

From your son?

Yeah.

When did you have your first son?

So my first son was born six months after I was arrested. So his mom was three months pregnant.

Wow.

Oh, wow. And so, you know, probably about two years into that time in solitary, which began about my eighth year in prison. So I probably was coming up on 10 years when I get this letter. Wow. And my, my dad always would sit my son down and make sure he wrote me letters. And normally they were just, you know, these little Kid letters. Hey, dad, you know, Transformers is my jam right now, you know, or, you know, here's a drawing or whatever. And I love you, dad. And, you know, he would send me those. Yeah. As a kid.

Young, 2, 5, 7 year old.

Yeah. And I actually still have those letters, some of those letters. And so he would send me these, you know, throughout my journey. And then I get this one letter when he's about 10 years old. I'm in solitary at the time. I think I'm on about year two. And I opened the letter expecting it to just be, you know, hey, dad, here's what's happening in my world. When I opened it, my son writes to me, dad, my mom told me, why are you in prison for murder? And he said, dad, don't kill again. Jesus watches what you do. That letter destroyed the Posada tuft. Like, the mask that I had worn up to that point in my life. I mean, it just disintegrated. And I was like, I owe him a dad. And if. I don't know if I'm getting out of prison or not. But what I do know is that I have to live my life in a way that my son understands that no matter how far down you fall in life, if you are willing to do the work, you can get up and you can overcome. And so I said to myself in that moment, I don't know how. I don't even know if I'm ever get out of this place, but I need to prove to myself that I am committed to transforming my life. And I'm in the Spartan cell at the time. Like, there is nothing there that says, hey, here's how you can prove it. So I started with journaling because I wanted to get to the truth of, like, you know, how did I end up here? Like, there was a part of me that was like, I know I'm not a bad person. I know that I'm a good soul, but I've done horrible things that have hurt people. And so that was a conflict that was just like, this is a war right now. Right? And so I go into battle mode. I'm, like, journaling, and I'm writing. And, I mean, it's raw and it's scary, and it's just like, sheesh, this is the things that I've done. These are the things that have been done to me. And while I was doing it, I realized that I hadn't completed anything other than the ged. And I was like, okay, if you're committed to transforming your life, you have to finish something, and you have to do it for you. And you can't do it for the warden. You can't do it for the guards. You can't do it for your parents. I told them many times, oh, I'm turning my life around. It's the last time I've been in trouble. It was all the fluff. It was the mess. It was the lies that we tell ourselves in the moment when we're hurting, and we're just like, okay, we don't want the. We want that immediate hurt to stop. But it wasn't about turning life around. And so I said, here's what you do. You have to write a book in 30 days. And if you write this book in 30 days, then that will be your proof that you're ready for a change.

That's cool.

And so I didn't have a laptop, though. I didn't have a typewriter, handwriting. It was old school. I didn't even have a real good pen. Like, so imagine if you pull the inside of that piano.

You had that little thing.

That little thing.

Oh, my gosh. That's hard.

Yeah. And so I was like, okay, you.

Want to give you a pen?

No, not in solitary. They're scared you're gonna, like, shank the guard or something.

Oh, my gosh.

And so immediately, I was like, there's no way possible I'm gonna write a book in 30 days with this thing. And the first thing that popped in my mind was, here's excuse number one. Here's your victimhood. Here's your blaming everything other than being accountable. And I was like, okay, no, that's not gonna happen. We're not. We're not going back down this path. Right? And so I took that pen and I rolled it up in some paper, making it hard. Yeah. I'm like, yo. I mean, I had tons of experience rolling things up, so it was just like, let me be intentional, right? Like, this is innovation. This is. You know, I learned that later on in my life that. Oh, that's what that is, like, innovation. But rolling it up in that paper made it firm enough for me to write. And I wrote for 30 days straight until I finished that book. And when I finished that book, I felt this incredible weight lifted from my shoulder, and I felt empathy for myself, and I felt compassion. And I was like, you are a smart kid. You are capable of doing good. You are worthy of doing good. And I was like, wow. And then I was like, okay, that's cool. I wrote a book. But I was like greatness is the ability to do something good over and over. And so I was like, write another book in 30 days. And I wrote that second book and then I started a third book and I fell into the deepest bout of depression that I had ever experienced when while incarcerated. Writing the book, writing that book.

Why?

About halfway through I realized I had all this talent and I was trapped in an environment where I couldn't give birth to it. And all the disappointment of my life flooded back to me. This realization that I was this brilliant kid, I was a talented writer, I was an artist at heart, I was smart. But here it was, I was in the worst place imaginable in solitary confinement with the chaos of that environment playing out all around me. And it was devastating to come face to face with that. And I just remember not even wanting to get off my bunk. Like everything felt heavy and weighted. Like just to go to that door and open that food slot and take in slop one more time. Like it felt like a million mile journey because it was like that heavy. That devastation of coming face to face with my authentic self in an environment that was created by this mass version of who I was. Wow.

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And I was just like, damn, I failed this kid. I let this person down. And so I fall into this deep, deep depression. And then one day I was just like, you know, you can sit back and you can feel sorry for yourself. You can blame your parents, you can blame your trauma, you can blame the guards, you can blame everything that led to this moment. But right now you have a choice. Whether to wallow in self pity, in defeat and brokenness, or you can find your inner light and you can find your way out of here. And so at this time, I was reading all these brilliant books. You know, as a man, think of the secret. And it was talking about the power of manifestation.

Yeah.

And initially I was like, this is some whack, whack science. Right. So garbage. Right. This. How do you think it to exist in some things? Right. But here's where what I learned about that, I went back and I read my journal and I began. As I'm reading this journal, I'm charting how I was thinking and I was like, my thinking produced the exact outcomes that it should have. Like, by reading this journal, it was very clear that I was going to end up in prison. Like, it was very clear that at some point I was going to pull the trigger that was going to cause someone's death. It's very clear that I was going to get into these altercations because I was thinking that that was the only thing I was worthy of. From the time I was seven or eight years old, I heard, you're only going to end up dead or in jail. You know, I had observed my friends go to prison. I observed my friends get shot. I had accepted that narrative. So that was. My dominant thoughts were dead or jail. Like, that was. Those were my dominant thoughts. Like, I wasn't shocked when I got shot. I was traumatized, but I wasn't. It wasn't like, oh my God, like this wasn't supposed to happen. It was like, oh, this is a narrative. Right. And so my dilemma was, if this is absolutely true, that I had magnetized my thoughts in a negative, that if the laws of the universe are true, that I can magnetize them in the positive. And so I began to focus.

You did this when you were in solitary?

Mid solitary, yeah. Yeah. And so I started waking up with intentional thoughts of what I wanted my life to be, that one day my life would Be full of joy One day. It would be purposeful. One day I'll get out of solitary. One day I'll get out of prison. And while I was on that train of thought, I was like, okay, let's test this theory. If thoughts are things, if what you think manifests, if how you know, you believe dictates your outcome, let's test it. That's the empirical thing to do. Right. It's the most scientific thing to do. Right. And so I wrote the war in this letter. You know, I had been, like, getting deep into philosophy. So I write to Warren, this very philosophical letter. And what I proposed to him was to understand what the truth is. And I said to him, I said, you know, warden, when I entered prison, I pledged that I was never going to follow the rules that I didn't want to follow.

And it got me into solitary, and.

It got me into solitary, and it got me into. I've accumulated over 36 misconducts. And while you may not like that, what I would hope that you can acknowledge is that I'm a man of my word. And that was the truth. Right. I said I was gonna get into all mental trouble, and I did it. And I was like, if you believe that the truth is the only thing that matters in conversation, everything that I'm about to tell you is what my truth is today. If you give me this opportunity to get out of solitary, I will focus on developing my skill sets as a writer, and I will focus on creating a pathway to build a career for myself, using my talent as a writer. And the warden actually wrote me back, and he said to me, this is the most compelling argument for release I've received. And while it feels counterintuitive, I'm going to advocate for you to get out. Wow.

How many more years did you have in solitary?

I ended up being, like, two and a half more years because the census was indefinite.

It was forever.

It's whenever they feel you're ready. Yeah.

So you have two and a half more years after that letter.

Yeah, after that letter. But he advocated immediately. And then it went to his higher ups, and they shut it down.

Yeah.

So it took these three steps and then also wrote down what I wanted to happen in my life with my writing. I was like, okay, if I'm gonna be serious about writer, here's the. Here's the goals. And I wrote down the most lofty goals you can think of as a writer. I wanted Oprah to read one of my books.

You want to be a New York Times bestseller?

And I wanted to be a New York Times bestseller.

Check, check.

And I want to build a career for myself. There you go. Using writing. And I want to write across multiple platforms. I want to write music. I want to write for the stage. I want to write for television. And so I was just super intentional and very clear. And when I got out of solitary, man, I took all the books that I had handwrote, and I typed them all up on a little word processor. And it was the most tedious thing I've done to. Oh, my God.

It was brutal months, just like.

Yeah, yeah. But that. That was the culmination of those three miracles coming together, kind of letting that mask down and charting a new path for myself.

What did the warden say after you hit New York Times bestseller and had Oprah interview you and talk about you and all these things?

You know what? I. He ended up retiring, so I haven't been able to track him down.

Oh, man, that'd be cool.

Yeah. But there's so many people from that part of the world that experience that have reached out, that have followed my work. A guy I used to work for, he's one of my best friends now. I worked for him, like, in the days when I was in a dark space. I was creating all type of chaos on the yard. And his name is Tom Scheidt.

He was in. He was an inmate with you?

No, no, he was my supervisor. He was a civilian coming into the prison and teaching, or he was. He was running a recreation center.

Gotcha.

So he was running a recreation center at Michigan Reformatory, which was the gladiator school. This was, like, the most chaotic part of my incarceration is 1500 young guys with long sentences, anything from 15 years to life. And I worked for Tom and even in the prison. In the prison for this program. Yeah. So I worked for the recreation center. And back then, Tom was just like, you know, you can do anything you want to do in life, like, positive or negative, you know, he was like, but I believe that your life is meant for a greater purpose. And that one day you're gonna get out of prison. And young people will look up to you, but you gotta make sure you don't end up with life in prison. Cause I can see you going down that path as well. And so I looked Tom up when I got out of prison. I wrote him. I hadn't seen him since, like, 96. And first when he answered the phone, he was like. He was like, shaka. Like, I'm like, he like, how? Like, how did you get out. Like, you know, it was like. Like I escaped or something. I'm like, no, Tom, I've legitimately got paroled. But he took me to my first football game, my first college football game, him and his wife. You know, he was one of the first people to read some of my writing before I even thought of myself as a writer. And so, you know, over the years since I've been out, Tom has come and stayed at my place. I've stayed at this place in Lansing, Michigan. And, you know, we're really, really good friends now. But he saw something in me the way that my mentors did back then, that I didn't see in myself.

So you had these thoughts that got you into jail, essentially, right. That had you doing the actions and the behaviors that got you into jail. And then you continued those thoughts for the first nine or ten years until you kind of learned that thoughts can become things and you can manifest what you want in your life. And you started shifting and creating goals and. And then staying true to your goals by accountability, daily consistent actions to help you accomplish those goals, and then backing it with the positive thoughts, or the thoughts of gratitude or joy or possibility that one day something will be better as opposed to falling back into shame or upset or guilt. How does someone just, in their life, whether they're incarcerated or not, they might be incarcerated in their own minds, shift their negative thoughts to set themselves up to manifest more abundance?

It's an incremental process, and it's truly a journey. And, you know, what I always tell people is that when you look at the end results of anybody who's accomplished anything great or anything of respect or what we consider success, it always looks easy after it's done. Done.

Yeah.

But it's a process, you know, it's a journey. And it's a. For me, what would work was bringing myself to the moment and checking the narrative. What story am I telling myself? You know, am I telling myself the truth? Am I recirculating the old outdated story that no longer exists? And, like, that mindfulness, that ability to bring myself, like, true to the moment, that was one of the most powerful things I learned. You know, I learned it through meditation and really processing thoughts and energy and, okay, what am I. What am I bringing in? Like, I always talk to young people about the importance of checking what you're consuming. You know, our consumption cycles, you know, mentally often go unchecked in terms of.

The thoughts and what you're watching, what.

You'Re reading, information, reading, listening to what.

Your friends Are saying gossip or whatever.

All the things like those, like, we take in so much information and then it's that internal conversation, right? That. That internal conversation is a beast. You know, the best conversation I ever have are with myself. And they're. They're complex, you know, they're not always easy, you know. And so what I, what I would say is that that journey from negative attraction, you know, manifestation, like, is. It's a process of like, okay, can I check it in a moment? Can I really just take a beat and say, okay, is this real? Is this happening? Or is this me drawing from old outdated information to create a story that's not even true? And so I'm constantly doing. I'm constantly just checking the narrative, right? When things are happening in a world that can be so chaotic and feel like they're so in our face, I, like, I. I center myself and I just come back to, like, mindfulness, right? We talked about, you know, the horrific, you know, mass shooting that just happened yesterday. I learned about that about a half hour before I was going to pick my son up from school.

Oh, gosh.

And I just had to like, recenter myself be present. And I remember getting to the school and I felt just that anxiousness, you know, and then I heard the laughter of those kids and I was just like, oh, this is. What's really happening, is these kids are in joy over here. And that shooting was horrendous and horrific. And as a dad, like, my heart just went out to those parents. But I knew that there was a way that I can go down this negative, kind of taking my son out of school, he's not going, you know, like this whole chain of events and bringing myself to the clarity of that moment and knowing that collectively we can help those families heal, but we also can be present in the kids that are still here that we're able to love on and care about. And we can double down on that care. And just that doubling down on the care and the love was like, okay, let's be present in that while we help these families heal. So it's just. It's a process. You know, writing it down really helps. You know, I still write down my thoughts. You know, I still, in my notes on my phone, just kind of like, hey, I had a thought about this thing and journaling and processing and attracting good energy and good intentions and that, that hyper awareness of, like, what am I consuming and what does it serve? Because everything we consume serves a part of us. Even when it's like, when I was in that negative loop, like that served. It served a part of me. It energized me. Anger energized me. Right. It made me feel. Because it was what I was taught. I can only feel it gives you some significance, too. Yeah, yeah.

I'm curious. Was there a moment in time in prison where you were able to fully let go of shame, guilt, the trauma that you were maybe holding onto, and actually start to love yourself authentically and have peace? Was there a moment that happened in prison or did this not happen till after?

No, absolutely. So around that time that I was journaling and I really began to unpack that narrative, I began to grow my locks. And it was.

My hair.

Yeah, my hair. Yeah. And it was my third attempt. So the first time that I attempted, they got it started. And when I looked in the mirror, all I heard was all the negative things that I ever heard about my natural hair. And, you know, I went and cut it off immediately. I started a second time, and it got a little bit longer. And then I heard that negative narrative. And so I knew I was on a healing journey when I was able to see the beginnings of it and see beauty and see joy and see cultural connectivity. And I began to apologize to myself. I began to apologize to myself for all the mean things that I had said internally, all the times I had doubted my capabilities, all the times that I had bought into the shame. You know, I grew up, I have gap teeth, and, you know, I would get teased as a kid and, you know, there was shame attached to that. And I learned to look into that little window between my teeth and say, oh, wow, that's fascinating. That's beautiful. And so it's just a process of, like, watching all of the narratives fall away and create new narratives and create new language of self love, you know, and it's. And that's still a thing. That's like a journey, right? Like, it's just like, you know, you're. There's not these one offs. Like, I know people want it to be like a magical thing, but it's like, no, it's a journey. You know, I have to wake up and just be like, hey, you know, you're okay. You're, you're, you're, you're, you're doing fine. There's things that you still have to navigate and, you know, you have to overcome and, and face and confront, but it's actually okay, you know, because if you can label it in the right way and you could just say, oh, I'm just triggered right now.

Sure, sure.

Or, you know, this is kind of a moment where I'm kind of having a self defeating moment. Get it together, you know, self talk.

You know, on a scale of 1 to 10, the first 10 years you were in jail, on a scale of self love, 10, being like you loved yourself the most in an authentic, conscious way, you know, had peace in your heart, all these things. One being, you hated yourself, you know, shamed yourself. All these things. Where were you in those first 10 years?

Like minus minus five. You know, it was, it was, it was like now.

And where were you after you got, when you got out or the last.

You know, you know, the day I walked out of prison, I would say I was at about a strong eight, sort of strong eight.

Self love.

Self love. Yeah, yeah, I was at a strong eight.

Was it because you were getting out or was it because you had gotten there maybe in the previous year?

Year? No. Yeah, it was probably like that last few years where it just started hitting on all cylinders, you know, and it was just kind of this space in my life where I was like, you know, I'm in prison one day, I won't be. You know, I went up for parole like two times, three times before I got released. So it was kind of like the moments would knock me back down a few months.

Maybe. This is the time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was the, that was, that was the challenge, you know, that was the thing that I had to combat was the negative talk attached to that. Okay, they're never going to let me out. And then I just had to start countering it, you know, so every day I would walk the yard with one of my best friends named Calvin Evans. And Calvin is an incredible light in my life. You know, he served 24 years for a crime he didn't commit. And one of the most joyful people I know.

Oh, my gosh.

And so I would walk the yard with Calvin. We would just walk and I would say, one day, man, you know, I'm gonna get out of here and this is what I'm gonna do. And this is how I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna hustle these books out of the trunk. And, you know, one day one of these books gonna reach, you know, Oprah. I don't know how, but I'm just gonna hustle, hustle, hustle, you know, you know, I'm mentor the kids when I get home. And so I was just. This talk was like, it was verbalizing my intentions, but it was also countering that narrative that was attached to like getting denied parole, right.

You're not gonna be amount to anything. You're being here forever.

You're, you know. Yeah, so it was just that constant refrain, right? And, you know, and so, yeah, it was, it was, it was at about an 8 by the time I walked out of prison.

It's pretty powerful. Yeah, that's really powerful. Where would you say you're at today?

Today I'm at a 10, man. Life is, life is great. It's complex, you know, the things that happen, I just acknowledge them for what they are, you know, I had a tough year. Last year was probably one of the toughest years that I've had, you know, in a very, very long time.

Why is that?

My, My younger brother was murdered. My dog was our puppy. We had like a one year old beautiful puppy. Left him with a trainer. The trainer calls me the next day. Puppy had got ran over.

Oh, man.

You know, I got got, you know, dealt with like illness and just, it was just brutal, you know, it was a brutal, brutal year. And you know, what I found to be the most healing was that I was actually able to sit up and say, you know, I'm sad, express it. I was able to literally articulate those words. I was, you know, I went through the anger phase with my brother. And I remember like, I flew home to Detroit and it was just like all the autopilot of like, okay, we got to get my brother buried. Let me make sure my parents are good, you know, let me navigate all the things, the kind of thinginess of reaction to, you know, negative experiences, right? Where it's just like autopilot is fixed, fixed, fixed, correct, you know, all those.

Things and not pause and feel.

Not pause and feel.

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And I remember we were sitting, you know, in a hotel room right outside of Detroit, and it was my. My girl, girlfriend, my partner. We like to call each other's partners. Like, I think we're a little too old to be boyfriend and girlfriend, but my partner Liz and I and my friend Calvin, and we were sitting there, we were talking, and I just, like, the tears just came, and I was like, I'm sad. Like, I'm sad that my brother is in here. I'm sad that he didn't get a chance to experience or all the great things that we had planned together. And then when the puppy got ran over, it was the same thing of just being able to say, like, hey, this was my companion. One of the things that I experienced with my puppy that I didn't know was, like, you know, I got shot when I was walking, and so there's negative emotions attached to that experience. And when I got the puppy, I had to take him out and walk, and I was like, wow, this is the first time that I've walked freely in almost 30 years.

And it kind of allowed you to.

Heal, and it allowed me to heal, you know, so, you know, to lose, that was devastating, you know, but it was really sad because he was, like, so joyful and my son was sad and, you know, to be able to cry with him, you know, and just hold him and experience, like, his sadness, but also our love and for my partner, be able to hold space for that and for us to be able to experience sadness together and love and, you know, vulnerability and, you know, and so it just made a tough year fulfilling and enlightening in this way that, you know, I've just recently start coming out on the other side of, you know, and I'm excited about that, you know, but I'm also excited that I experienced the sadness and I was able to express that and to still feel aligned with just, like, joy and fulfillment, you know, and to know that that's part of it.

Yeah.

Is, you know, sadness is going to happen, but joy comes in being able to fully express all of your emotions. Yes. And, like, as a dad, you know, I don't think there's a greater gift I can give myself. Son then full access to his emotions by modeling that for him.

Absolutely. What do you think? What do you think? When I did my book, the Mask of Masculinity. Back in almost five years ago now, I did a little tour, right, for the book. And I would sit in rooms of few hundred people, usually fifty, fifty men and women, and I would, at one point in every speech, I would say for all the, you know, ladies in the room, raise your hands. If once a week you get together with a girlfriend or girlfriends or your mom, and you talk about your insecurities, your feelings, your emotions around relationship or body image or work, and pretty much all the women would raise their hand and I'd say, okay, for the guys in the room, how many of you get together once a month and talk about your feelings with another guy or guy friends? You talk about your, you know, relationship issues, you talk about your self doubt and your body image issues, these different vulnerabilities. And it'd only be like one or two hands would go up out of like a hundred something, right? I'd say, how many of you guys are in like a church group where this is kind of mandatory every month to get together and like do this? And they're kind of laughing. Yes. And I said, ladies, how many of you guys do this every day? You, you talk about your feelings, you know, maybe it's 30 minutes over lunch, you express yourself. And most of them kept their hand up. And I go, guys, how many of you in the room never do this? And most of the guys put their hand up maybe once a year or something, they have a moment where they're vulnerable. And I go, ladies, imagine what it would feel like to never be able to express your emotions, to never be able to say how you feel. What would that do to you? And most of them are like, it'd drive me crazy. I'd go nuts, I'd explode, right? And I go, look what's happening with the men in the world. They're exploding on others, whether it be verbally, whether it be online, whether it be domestic violence, whether it be, you know, any other type of violence out there. And I'm curious, what do you think, what do you think will happen if human beings, men and women, all human beings, never express their feelings and emotions and don't learn to heal their trauma? What do you think will happen?

I think if we continue to create these personal prisons around people, these emotional, spiritual prisons around people, we'll continue to see these massive upticks in violence. We'll continue to see this just kind of disdain for each other that shows up in social media. We'll never get to a space where there's like clear conversations and healthy dialogue and, you know, all the things. And you know, it's so interesting, you know, when I think about being here on this podcast and I think about just the many brilliant minds you talk through over the course of, you know, you building out this great platform and how much of it is about, you know, just like greatness and success and, you know, sometimes even about wealth building and, you know, and I think all those things are drivers for me. Right. Like, I love the grind, I love the hustle. You know, I come from the streets. So, like that, that mindset of like entrepreneurship and building something and doing the thing, like, I love it. You know, it's super exciting to be here to talk about it, but I think the greatest untapped resource we have in the world right now is the emotions of men. Like when we are able to fully be ourselves, to authentically be connected emotionally, to be able to be vulnerable and intimate, you know, with each other, with our significant others, with our children. Like, everything around us just gets better.

Yes.

Like, it just gets better. And it's like such a great untapped resource.

And feel accepted for our emotions.

Absolutely.

Not. Feel ashamed, made wrong. Made less than. Because we have vulnerability.

Absolutely.

Or express sadness every now and then. Or share tears every now and then.

Yeah. And I think, and you know, and I can just say this, right? You know, we talk about privilege in the world. World. Right. We talk about white privileges. We talk about, you know, gender specific privilege. Like, I know I sit in a space of privilege when I'm talking about emotional vulnerability because I've dealt with the toughest things you can deal with in life. Right. So there's not a guy that's going to come and question, like, toughness. Right. So I have a cheat code, so to speak. Like, I can talk to these things and, you know, I don't have to worry about the shaming that comes with, like, oh, he's soft because he's talking about feelings now or whatever the things are. So I, you know, I'm fortunate in that regard. Right. And I don't take that for granted.

You live the tough life.

I lived a tough life.

And you got the results of what that looks like.

Absolutely.

You continue to have more and more pain and restriction based on living that lifestyle, Right?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why we're not. The subtitle of the book is An Invitation and I know that I'm a great ambassador to invite people to join this party of emotional vulnerability and love because I've overcome the most adverse conditions Imaginable the hardest things, the things that I wasn't supposed to survive. Like, nobody's supposed to get out of solitary confinement and to operate in love. Nobody's supposed to get out of solitary confinement and be a successful writer, successful tech entrepreneur, successful investor. Like, nobody's supposed to be able to get out of solitary confinement and dream or imagine a life that, you know, is beyond what people who've never been in, you know, solitary confinement imagine for themselves. So I have the cheat code, right, which comes with responsibility. And it's one of the reasons that, you know, I chose to, like, write and I choose to talk from these vulnerable spaces because it's a blessing. The cheat code is a blessing. The hack is a blessing, right? It's. It's this ability to understand that I know this is what men crave. Somebody just has to open up the pathway for it. Somebody has to invite them into, like. Life gets so much better when you're at peace with yourself.

Oh, my gosh.

When you're not in turmoil, when you're not aching, when you're not, you know, waking up with worry and fear and dread and, you know, all the things that stand in the way of, like, achieving great outcomes. Life is beautiful, you know, when you're not beating up on yourself internally. Life is magic. Like, it's the most magical thing is when you're just like, hey, I love life. You know, I love joy, I love fulfillment. And it doesn't have to be hard and it doesn't have to be complex. And like, those things don't make me a man. Like, I was the least manly the night I pulled that trigger. I was a boy having a grown up tantrum, you know, because my emotions weren't processed in a healthy way. You know, I'm the most masculine and the most man that I can ever be is when I'm actually loving my son. You know, when I'm taking care of him. Like, you know, I talk a little bit about, like the. The details of care. Like, I think love is in the details, right? Like when I'm able to, like, literally just two nights ago, my son is. He had a loose tooth, you know, and he's like, dad, I just really want to get the tooth out, right? And I'm just like, you know, I'm not squeamish by any stretch of the imagination, but I also don't want to hurt him. I don't want it to be a traumatic event, like old school. Let me try to think of y'. All, just rip it on out Right. And so, you know, we go into the bathroom and, you know, we're trying to figure out how to loop the string, the string around. It's like a weird side of his mouth. And then there was this moment where I was just like, gently, like, rocking it, and then the tooth, like, comes out. And it was like the most gentle extraction possible.

You didn't need the pliers.

Rip it out. Yeah. You know, and there's like this moment where he's just. It's joy, right? It's pure joy, you know, and so, like, those moments of fatherhood, like, that feels great, you know, preparing a meal for him when he specifically wants something that I prepare for him in a way that he likes. You know, folding up his laundry, like, all the details, teaching him a new skill set, you know, that isn't athletic, that isn't combative. It's not about, you know, the sports and just letting him be, you know, like, I'm a big sports guy, you know, and it's in the complex thing, like now in the world of political correctness. Right. It's like you can't say you like to see people's face pummeling on UFC and that you're also a kind, loving and gentle partner. But that's the truth of who I am. Like, I love boxing, I love combat sports.

Yeah, man.

I love basketball, I love football. And I get all the things associated with it, but I love it. You know, I love the crash them up, bang, bang reality of, you know, I love cars with big engines and that guzzle way too much gas. But also love sitting, you know, present with my son and hugging him. Also love sitting in deep, beautiful conversations with my partner and receiving love. Yeah. You know, and those things don't have to be dissimilar.

It's beautiful, man.

Yeah.

Now that you're, you know, a father, what are the three things you wish you had as a child growing up that you are giving to your kids and you want more parents to give? What are those three things that if you would have received, you think would have changed the course of your life in a different way?

I think the three things that I think about most is complete and full access to healthy emotions as expressed by my parents.

Like witnessing them have healthy emotions, Modeling.

It, witnessing them, modeling it, and then.

Being able to do it.

Being able to do it myself. Safety. Like the safety of emotional vulnerability from my parents. I wish the second thing would be the freedom to fully express all of my curiosity, all of my artistry, all of, you know, my Emotions. And when I think about that, you know, I just think about, you know, my son. And how he's able to fully express himself. You know, he can wear Mitch Mac shoes. He can draw on his clothes. He can do pretty much whatever he wants to. He just has this freedom. I wish I had that freedom of expression. I think that's so important. And I would just say emotional and psychological safety. So one is like emotional modeling of vulnerability. But emotional psychological safety, to me, for a child, I just think is the greatest gift that parents can give. You know, it creates deep, deep trust. It creates confidence. You know, it creates space for just, like, children to imagine all the things possible. And I see it with my son, like, he's so confident in a way that's not, like, arrogant and cocky, which comes out of insecurities. Like, he's confident because he's been able to just be free.

You know, challenge is. A lot of parents have kids, and they haven't healed their wounds.

Absolutely.

And so how do we teach or educate or empower new parents to do the work themselves? The inner healing work, the trauma work, the inner child?

Yeah, you know, it's tough. You know, it's tough because a lot of us become our parents in different ways, for bad or for good.

And if you're traumatized and you weren't allowed to share emotions, then maybe you do the same. You repeat the pattern.

Yeah, you repeat the pattern. And then there's cultural realities, right? Like, I grew up in, you know, you don't know. I'm, like, black, right? So I grew up in an environment where, you know, corporal punishment is, like, a normal part of the conversation. You know, if you watch black comedians, they talk about, you know, getting whooped when they were young, right? And we poke fun at it because that's what we kind of tend to laugh at our pain. Some of the most difficult conversations I've ever had as a mentor is when I'm talking to parents about physical violence. Like, that's. It's physically a violent thing to, you know, hit your child out of anger and frustration and, you know, your own insecurities and, like, all the things, right? So what I try to do is create space, space for role reversal and empathy. And sometimes it can be a little gnarly and, you know, hard to unpack those conversations. But, you know, I just think about, you know, if we can get to a space of thinking, like, what did you need most as a child? What did you desire the most as a child? And then put yourself in your child's shoes. Right. And parenting is tough. Like, it's like, complex, you know, it's like, you know, there are so many things we're thinking about all the time as parents. Right. Are they safe? Are they fed? Did they do their homework? Did they go to this thing? Do they got good friends? Are they, you know, avoiding trouble? And a lot of times, it's rooted in our own experiences.

Sure.

So just helping parents bring themselves to presence and just saying, hey, you know, detach your ego, you know, detach yourself from your trauma and really give them space to just be, you know, who they're intended to be.

If someone talking about detaching from your ego or your past or your trauma, if someone feels like something's off inside, you know, they've been driven by anger or to prove or because they were picked on or didn't have the right support from their parents or the love that they wish they would have received or for whatever reason they feel like inside, I don't feel inner peace. And maybe they don't even know that they haven't. They don't need to let go of the past.

Right.

Because I didn't know this until I realized, like, my life is not working at a level, and I'm still in pain, and I'm sick and tired of feeling this inner pain. So instead of chasing things, I'm going to, like, look within and start healing. What would you say would be the. The first three steps to take if someone wants to let go and detach of their past and their traumas and start moving into peace?

I would say acknowledgement is the first thing. Like, you have to acknowledge it, you know? You know, you cannot fix what you're not willing to acknowledge is broken. So acknowledgement is a big thing. Apology is a big thing.

Apology to who?

To self. Like, once you can acknowledge the ways that you've hurt yourself and the ways you've been hurt and the way that you've hurt others. Like, apologizing to self is powerful, and then it's kind of atoning with yourself. Like, how do you become at one and how do you heal and get back to that space? And for me, what it looked like was like, meditating was like, one of the greatest gifts I've ever given myself. This ability to just kind of process and breathe and really exhale all this negative energy. Right?

Yeah.

Releasing it. And then it was the journaling, you know, which I consider meditation on paper, freeing up and liberating myself from old narratives and old hurtful and harmful things. And then you Know that mindfulness practice to just bringing myself back to the moment, you know, and, you know, in the moment, you know, really being present with, like, here's what's actually happened versus the story I'm telling myself. And I talk about it in Letters to the Sons of Society. There's this moment where I'm talking about the dread that comes with living in a racialized culture, right? And, you know, I've talked about police brutality. I've talked about all the things going on in the world. And what I realize is that a lot of times when we're having these conversations, we're having them from a source of pain, and it makes it hard for the other person to receive it. Because our pain, when we're filtering through pain, it comes across as angry. And people just put up a wall, right? And sometimes we are angry, and rightfully so. But there was a moment where I was up at about 2 or 3 in the morning and my puppy had got sick. He had pooped in a crate. And I'm out in the middle of the night. I'm in a new neighborhood. I hadn't been there long. You know, it's a pretty nice neighborhood in west la. And it's three in the morning, so I got a hoodie on, I got jogging pants on. It's dark, and I'm out making all this noise because I'm cleaning up the crate. And now you gotta imagine at three in the morning, you just got woke up with dog poop. It's not the most gentle thing. You're banging things around. And I had this moment that was paralyzing, and I froze. And I was like, what if my neighbors call the police?

Think you're doing something not supposed to do?

Think I'm doing something I'm not supposed to. When the police arrive, are they going to see a homeowner who's upset because he's cleaning puppy poop at three in the morning? Or. Or are they gonna see a black guy in a hoodie that looks to fit all the profiles of what we see on tv? And that moment was so jarring. And it wasn't until I, was, like, able to bring myself to mindfulness and say, you know, this isn't happening. I'm actually a homeowner in my backyard cleaning poop up. Everybody does it, you know, but it's like, that's what, one, living up under the cloak of an oppressive kind of idea. But two, that's what mindfulness does. It can get you dislodged from that paralyzing moment.

Right.

And so that's why it's such a integral part of my own journey. And, and it's really, you know, kind of gave me a competitive edge when I'm in a world of whether it's in the world of business, whether it's selling books, whether it's, you know, manifesting all the things that I believe that the universe has in abundance for me. That ability to shift out of self defeating thoughts, out of negative narratives, out of ideas that don't serve me on the journey that I'm on and where I want to go in life, being able to bring myself to that moment and say I'm actually sitting across from Lewis, having a great conversation as opposed to the 10 other things that can potentially be running in the background.

Sure.

Like that's powerful.

I'm curious, Shaka, is, would you say that's the same process, these three steps to work, you know, the process of letting go of shame and guilt and the feeling that I'm a bad person for things I've done. Is that the same steps or how do you let go of shame and the feeling like I'm a bad person as opposed to I did something bad versus I'm a bad person?

Yeah, that's a great question. And the way that I think about it is the accumulative effect of living life. Right. Like we live through so many moments in our lives. Right. And you know, as a, as a person who navigates a world where data is always being processed and numbers are being crunched, you know, you think about the moments that we hold onto that are negative. They're usually minor by comparison to all the great and good moments we have.

We fixate on those.

We fixate on those things. Yeah. It's kind of like you have on a beautiful pristine white suit and it gets a little splash of mud on the hill and you obsessed over the cuff where the little splash at instead of the amazing suit that you have on. Right. And for me, it's just like understanding that once a moment has happened, it's no longer exists other than in your mind. Like the moments that I've lived through, those moments no longer exist. Those aren't moments I'm living in. I'm living in the right now. Right. So it's really like liberating yourself from old moments, you know, that have already happened. And I think sometimes we live in spaces that we don't control. Like you can't control the past. The past has already happened. Like you can reflect on it. You can go back and attach some energy to the emotions or whatever the case may be. But you can't recreate. The moment has already passed, and then the future hasn't arrived yet. You know, you could plan for it and think about what it'll look like and do everything in your power to manifest it, but you can't control it because it hasn't arrived yet. You know, and I think all too often we're living in those two worlds as opposed to, like, being centered in the right now. And so the way that I've helped free myself from those things is being present in the right now and erasing that videotape of the past or at least putting it in the closet, unless it's necessary to bring out and express it in a way that's gonna add value.

Right, Right. This is powerful stuff, man. I feel like we could talk for hours on this, but I wanna be respectful of your time. You got a couple amazing books. This one we have in front of me is Letters to the Sons of Society. A Father's Invitation to Love, Honesty and Freedom. Were any of these letters that you wrote or any of this that you wrote in prison in this book?

No, these are all letters I wrote during the imprisonment of the pandemic. So during our Covid. I call that my Covid, baby. You know, there was a lot going on in the world, you know, and a lot has gone on since my first mater release nearly over six years ago. Right. My wrongs. I released that six years ago. And I've grown tremendously, you know, as a man, as a dad, you know, I took my time writing another book because I wanted. I only like to write when I have something to say.

So that was six years ago, right?

Yeah.

And this came out in January, so.

This one came out in January.

I waited. My next book is five and a half years after my last book. I wanted to, but I was like, I don't feel ready to. I don't feel like I have the right thing to say yet.

Absolutely.

You don't just put it out just to put something out. So that's good.

Yeah. And that's what it was with this book. You know, so much was happening in the world, you know, as a dad, you know, as a black man, you know, as someone who navigates the world of, you know, Hollywood and tech and then the neighborhoods. Right. I have this very complex, you know, network of friends from every walk of life you can imagine, different races and genders, and I just have tons of great friends. Right. And great people who inspire Me. And, you know, I was, I was really just thinking, like, you know, what do I want to talk about? And then the world just started going berserk. And I was like, I got to memorialize some of these moments. I got to talk to my sons of society. I was really thinking broadly about, you know, kids I mentor, you know, people I work with in the world of hip hop. And, you know, and I started writing, you know, down these ideas and I was like, you know, I'm just gonna write these letters to my two sons. And because between my 30 year old son, Jay, who grew up while I was in prison, my 10 year old son, who I'm raising now, Sekou. Yeah, Sekou. Are all of my sons of society. And so I started writing these letters, man, and they cover things that we don't talk about as dads. You know, you talked about earlier about the freedom that came later on when you were able to talk about, you know, sexual abuse.

Yes.

I write about my experiences growing up and being over sexualized as a teenager and how that impacted relationships, you know? You know, I talk about what it's like to bear witness to George Floyd's demise in this public spectacle and what I want my sons to learn from that. You know, I talk about love, like. Like how rich life is when you're able to fully access love and share love. You know, I talk about the affirmations that I do with my son, you know, and that I hope other dads are doing adopt and emotional vulnerability, accessibility, you know, success, you know, living your dream, building your dream, writing and expressing your dream, you know, so I get a chance to talk about all the things that excite me today as a dad, you know, and as a man. And, you know, what's interesting with this book is oftentimes, you know, people try to lump us into these categories, right? Like, okay, this is a book for black dads, or this is a book for dads. It's like, it's a human story. I just happen to be a black dad living in America. But what I have to say in this book is rooted in the human tapestry. You know, it's love. There's no colors to that. It's vulnerability. There's no gender identity to that. Yeah, it's healing, you know, it's healing. There's no class identity to that, you know, it's success. We all have the potential to dream as wide and as big as possible and to decide if we want to pursue those dreams, you know, so it's so universal in the messaging it just happened to be expressed through the lens of me being a dad, you know, and raising a 10 year old son in the current realities and, you know, dreaming up what I hope, you know, this wisdom does for his life.

Yeah, man, inspiring stuff, man. Really inspire what you're creating. I want people to get the book, I want them to follow you. You're on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all the places. What's the place you hang out the most.

In the social world? I kind of like my throwback Facebook piece because I can write a little bit longer on it. I like to write notes, but. But I'm on ig. I'm on Twitter Clubhouse, you know.

You're still on there, huh? Yeah, I got up there. Still active in there. People are in there a lot.

Yeah, yeah, you know, there's great conversations happening there, you know, so I'll pop in and that's cool, you know, have a great conversation. So love that, that crew and you know, LinkedIn, I'm on there as well, you know, figuring out that space. But yeah, I'm just, I'm there, you know, and everything is up under my name and website. All that stuff is all the same.

Yeshaka san.com for your website, where you can get all the books and content and information. What's the thing you're most excited about for the future, man?

I am, I am super excited about my current role as the head of sales and success for our company. Trip actions. It is, it's kind of like it brings all together, together all the things that I love. Right. You know, I love working with talented people. I love working with people who just dream big and massive and just like, you know, we're gonna collaborate and we're just gonna work together to build this new world and this new way of being in the world. And then I get a chance to tell stories and help my team become just the best storytellers that they're capable of. And like to be entrusted with that responsibility is really affirming, you know, quickly I'll tell you this story I had in this conversation I had with our CEO, who's a friend of mine. He's my friend of mine before I joined the company and he always said to me, he was like, I want to see you just navigate the world based on your talent, not based on your past. And he was like, you have so much to contribute to the world. That has absolutely nothing to do with the time you serve is because of who you are as a person. And for us to partner years later and him ask me to join the company.

That's pretty cool.

Because he believes I'm one of the best storytellers that he's ever met, and he's entrusted me with the sales team. I'm super excited about that, man. And it's a new role, and we're having fun with it. We're building it in real time. I did the first sales training a couple of weeks ago, and it was a big hit with our leadership team. And so I'm excited, man. I get a chance to utilize my skill sets in different ways. You know, I don't have to talk about my work in criminal justice, which is really important to me, and work that I'll always do, but it's not all of who I am, you know? So as a writer, as a storyteller, to be able to use those skill sets to help build out the vision of our company, there's nothing more exciting right now.

Living the dream, man.

Living the dream. Living the dream.

I love this, man. I want people to get the book. Letters to the sons of Society. Make sure you guys get a couple copies. Really inspiring letters in here. Make sure you guys check this out. I got a question I ask everyone at the end. Called the three Truths. So imagine it's your last day on earth, many years away. You get to live as long as you want. You get to accomplish and achieve and do everything you want to do. But eventually, you got to call it quits in this world, in this life. And for whatever reason, you got to take all your work with you, all your book, your message, this interview, Anything you put out in the world, it's got to go with you, all your content. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true with the world. This is all we would have to remember of your information, Three lessons you would share with the world. What would you say are those three truths?

The three truths that I would share is love wins. That would be my number one. Love wins. The second truth would be the universe is abundant in every resource we will ever need to live the kind of life that we desire. And the third thing would be. To never settle for mediocrity when greatness is available.

I would acknowledge you, Shaka, for your transformation. I think it's really easy for human beings to stay stuck in a past that they're used to. It's easy to stay in blame mode, in anger mode, in frustration, in lack of accountability, responsibility. Right? It's easy to hold on to pain and shame. It's hard to shift into Love, accountability, responsibility, apologizing, forgiveness, all these different things. It's hard to express your emotions in a vulnerable way. It's hard to do good consistently when you've been stuck in a. An environment, a past that didn't foster that.

So.

So I really acknowledge you for shifting while you're in prison and continuing to add value to yourself, to your family, and to the world by teaching, by inspiring, by creating all the work that you do, man. It's really inspiring. And more people need to hear your message and be connected to your message because a lot of people are suffering in pain. And I think I was telling you, my brother was in prison for four and a half years, and there's a lot of suffering in prison, right? A lot of pain, a lot of suffering, a lot of stuff that goes down. And I witnessed part of this, right? I wasn't in jail, but I witnessed the pain that is caused to a family when someone is in jail. I heard about all the crazy traumas and madness that happens in prison, right? The. The stuff that creates you more scared, you know, living in prison, more in fear with the different stuff going on in jail. So I really acknowledge you for learning how to shift out of that, learning how to heal. And there's a lot of people in the world who aren't in physical prison, but they're in emotional, mental, prison, spiritual prison, and they're trapped. So I'm so grateful that you're teaching how to get out of that from the physical and the spiritual side point as well, and excited for what you're creating, man. It's really, really beautiful stuff.

Well, thank you so much for that. I truly deceive that, and that really touched me, you know, to be seen. You know, Oprah and I, we had a conversation one day, and she said one of the greatest desires for human beings is to truly be seen.

Absolutely.

And so thank you for that. It means a lot. And thank you for this incredible platform. Like, you know, I reached out to you, and you just was like, hey, let's do it.

Yeah, man.

So I'm truly honored to be here. You know, I think that the work you're doing is so purposeful and so transformative, and to be a part of that journey with you now means a lot to me. So thank you so much for having me like that.

Of course, man. Final question for you. What's your definition of greatness?

My definition of greatness is the ability to do something good over and over, you know, whatever that specific, specific field of focus is. Right. You know, when I think about Michael Jordan, I think about Kobe and LeBron and you know, one of my favorite Tom Brady is like, that's what separate the great from the good. You know, anybody's playing pro sports or we know they're good, they're in pros, right? But the greats have the ability to execute over and over and whatever that is, execute kindness, execute, you know, whatever success metrics you're using. But the ability to just show up over and over again. To me that's like greatness, you know, When I think about being a great dad, it's because I know every day, consistently, I'm going to show up in the best way possible as a dad and I'm going to do it over and over. It's not going to be a one off. So when I think of greatness, I think of repeated goodness.

Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now if you time to go out there and do something great.

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