Former Secret Service Agent Reveals How to Read Anyone

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All People Lie the research varies Some research says some people will lie 10 times within a conversation. Sometimes with people that we know very well, we can see it because sometimes you'll have people say, well, I was married to someone or I was close to someone and I didn't see it because. And because we're invested in that person, we want to believe the lie. A former Secret Service agent who's mastered the art of people reading, using these skills to help build trust and detect lies in your own relationships.

What are the social cues or psychological behaviors to know whether they're actually telling the truth?

It could be a very subtle thing or you might not give me anything. And actually the number one way people lie.

I'm curious if I would have had the secrets growing up on how to lie better where I didn't get caught. What would I need to have done better? Because I got caught a lot lying to my dad and my mom all the time. What would I have needed to do better? Or should I just not try to ever lie and just be completely honest and not worry about it.

I think some lying to some degree is healthy.

Really?

Well, if somebody's calling you and you don't want to answer the phone, and they're very a taxing person or emotionally, you know, those emotional vampires are just someone that's not unhealthy for you. Voicemail. Sorry, I was busy. I think in some situations it's okay. But as far as, like, lying, it's interesting you say that because we would. To become a special agent, there was a polygraph that you would have to take. And these things would come up as far as, like, do you steal? Do you cheat? Do you lie? But often people were worried about telling the truth. And what they do is they wouldn't tell the truth. You know, yes, I stole. Yes, I did this. And they would hold it in. They fail their polygraph or fail that part of the interview. And had they told the truth, they probably would have been fine. Because it was more of an integrity thing.

It's more like, tell the truth and not pass the test, but at least you're telling the truth or you'll pass.

The test if you tell the truth. Here's the thing. It's like the thought process is if you're going to lie about this, a polygraph, you know, then you're going to lie about everything. And so it's a big part of the job is trust, because you get so much power, so much authority. You're around the President of the United States. You're really around, you know, secret environments, so to speak. And so they really need to know that you can just be dropped anywhere and it's okay. So it's really about the integrity of it.

How many polygraph tests did you take to study doing this process as an agent?

I didn't take a lot, but I had to take them and then pass them myself because you have to get in. So I would be polygraphed. Are you, you know, about my background or, you know, and I can't get into the details. I'm kind of filtering now in my head. But basically, you know, are you trustworthy? Are you looking to cause harm? Have I convicted any felonies that I've not shared? Drugs tended to be a big disqualifier for a lot of folks.

Drugs. Have you done drugs or have you.

Been drug use or drug experimentation? So they would allow, hey, when you.

Were 16, if you did it for a few months, they allow.

They have criteria. I think today it's a lot more lenient. When I Went in. It was extremely strict. But I think what they found is like, we can't, we can't find people.

Yeah, everyone tried something, right?

We can't find people. Everybody's failing the, you know, the exam and, you know, and there's this understanding of that when people are young, they make mistakes and it's, you know, should something that you did when you were 16, 17, 18, 19, and now you're 30 preclude you from getting a job somewhere else? So there has to be a little bit of that logic in there where, you know, when it, it was a bit so severe. But I think there is a lot more experimentation today. But as far as your first question about your parents, I think that they just knew you well. And so they knew.

I could just feel it. I'm just like, no, I didn't do it.

Well, they know you, so they know your tells, they know your demeanor, they know how you shift when you do lie. And so sometimes with people that we know very well, we can see it. They're probably very intuitive to you. They probably also didn't want to believe your lies because sometimes you'll have people say, well, I was married to someone or I was close to someone and I didn't see it. And sometimes we intuitively see it, we know it's there, but we ignore it. And so we'll listen to somebody's excuses or explanations and because we're invested in that person and we want to believe in that person, we want to believe the lie. And so sometimes that's what happens when we get caught up in something and then you look back, you're like, I saw this, I saw that. And all those nickels will start dropping because. But when you're invested in someone, you want to believe in them. You want to believe when they tell you, oh, no, no, no, I was actually doing this because it's not to your benefit. It's to your benefit to believe what they tell you.

Do we all lie? All human beings? And is it okay to lie?

All people lie. The research varies. Some research says some people will lie 10 times within a conversation.

10 times, like in one sentence or a 30 minute conversation.

Hi, how are you? I'm great, how are you? Meanwhile, I just, that's a lie. Had a fight with my significant other. So that would be a lie. Then also, lying by omission is a big thing. People think that, that I have to say the lie it to be a lie. But I can tell you a story and leave something out that changes the context of the story. So now the story is not accurate. I mislead you. That is a lie. And actually, the number one way people lie is by omission, because most people don't like to lie. They're not comfortable with it. You know, it's not natural to us. It's work. It's a lot of. It's a lot of work. It's very hard.

You gotta remember what you said, too.

Right?

You gotta remember it. You have to stick to it, because you may have to repeat that lie again later in time. And it really is a credibility killer. It's just not worth doing. And so it's a lot of work to do cognitively, so it is actually easier to leave something out. I don't feel as bad. And then when you ask me, Louis, I say, oh, you know, I forgot to tell you that part.

And then you lose credibility.

If I lie like that, I may not lose as much. It's when people outright lie, and then. So you probably did some outright lies.

That I think, did you do this? Yes or no? No, I didn't do it.

Or how about this? No, I didn't do it.

No.

That's like one of the indicators when people say their body doesn't match it with. Doesn't match what they say. So they'll say, no. Yes. And so you'll see, the body will do this. Like, the body's in conflict with what they're saying. It doesn't happen to everybody. It's everybody. Everyone is so unique and so different. And I think what popular culture likes to do is say, everybody will do this, everybody will do that. And that's just. It's false. And there's no easy way to read people. It's work. It's studying the person, understanding human behavior, knowing that person, paying attention to their mannerisms. So, like, when I speak, I use illustrators when I speak. So if I'm telling you a story, I went here last night, I did this. I saw that. Now you ask me something. You know, Evie, is this your favorite podcast? Which it is.

I don't know.

Right. But I start, you know, I put my hands down, and I. I change my mannerisms now. I'm stoic. I'm not moving. In fact, people who do lie tend to move less, actually, because I'm working. I'm working. This is work. Oh, so I'm not. I'm thinking. I'm focused on. So there's all those indicators that do help you kind of filter out what's going on with the other person.

So using body language and being more expressive hides the lie. If you are lying.

If you're usually not all like, I want to be, you know, because some people that don't use a lot of maneuvers, they're always stoic, and so that's just what they are all the time. But if you have someone who is illustrative, who's always talking with their hands, and now you ask them a question that they're uncomfortable with or they want to lie to you about, you'll see less movement in the body.

What would be three questions? If you could only ask three questions to a human being to figure out if they're telling a lie or telling the truth, how would you start those three questions? What would they be?

TED T E D Tell me, explain, describe. Then I would fill in the rest. Tell me, tell me what you did last night rather than, what did you out with last night or were you with Sam last night? So tell me what you did last night. Explain to me how important this relationship is to you. Describe to me what you want. In this business partnership, those questions allow people to tell a story. So if you really want to read someone out, read somebody. You want them to tell you a story. So the more I can get you to tell me a story, I hear you, I'm watching you. I'm getting your mannerisms down, everything. But then you're also telling me what is important to you, what is of value to you. And then when you do that, now I don't have to sit there and guess and figure out, oh, how should I start my business pitch with Louis, you already told me the things you like, and so I can come in and speak to you in an intelligent way rather than trying to guess what you know what to say. So ideally, when you start a conversation, and this could be for anything, it's not just catching a lie. This is really just trying to start a conversation. TED T E D Tell me, explain, describe. You start big. You get people talking and telling you stuff, even though you're like, I want to know this specific thing, but if I ask this specific thing, this person's going to shut down on me. So I can't go straight for that. So what you do is you narrow it, you get closer, you get. You go from vague to, you know, more, you know, accurate to more accurate to. Then in the end, you get to that direct question because you've worked them to that point. So, for example, if you had a case where somebody was murdered or killed, right, and you had a suspect, you Wouldn't say, did you kill her? You would never say that. In fact, I would. You wouldn't get there to like, maybe two hours into the conversation. That's like the. You, you, you get there. It's over time because it's, it's, it's a serious thing. It's an ugly word. You know, I might not even say, did you kill her? Did you hurt her? Did you harm her? Did something happen? And I would get you, so I would never ask it that way. You get the person to give you admissions. Like, for example, yes, I was there, I was at the house, or yes, I did this. You know, you want them to give you a little bit and then eventually get more admissions. More admissions. You start to paint a picture, and then you, you never actually have to ask them, did you kill? They eventually tell you, so you were.

At the scene, you were there at the same time, you were holding the knife.

They tell you all of it, but you walk them, you walk them through that process. And so when you watch these TV shows or when you ask somebody a direct question and you want a direct answer and you don't get it, this is why it's work. It's a lot of work to connect with people, read people. And I think that's why. And I think society makes it seem like, do these three tricks and you'll have people eating out of your hand and doesn't work. It's not true. And this is why people struggle, because they're looking for the easy way when it's really about human behavior. The person across from you, like, understanding them, being curious. Curiosity is wonderful. So let them tell you stuff. Ask questions because you're curious, and then you'll get more information rather than trying to go for, like, exactly what you want to know. And then the other thing, too that helps with conversations is something called adaptability, which a lot of people don't have. Like, if I have a conversation with you and I specifically want to know one thing, but you want to tell me a whole other story around it. People don't have the patience. And so like, no, no, no, no, no. We're talking about something else. Like, stick to the topic. And when you do that, you break a rapport, you hurt the conversation. So a part of it is being patient. Let them take you a little bit on a journey, and then slowly you can bring them back to where you want. But sometimes we come in so rigid. No, no, I have to talk about this. This is the topic. And you're not able to adapt so adaptability is being. Is allowing a person to take you where they want to go. Letting somebody sit in the driver's seat for a little bit.

So you're telling me when my girlfriend is arguing with me about one thing, but then doesn't want to address it and takes it around the. The playground of all these other conversations, I get to listen to all those things to get it back to where I want to go to, perhaps, as opposed to. Baby, let's just focus on the problem right here.

Well, it sounds actually like your girlfriend is actually more of an identity based person. What does that mean? Okay, so there's instructional, there's identity. So if I'm talking to you and I want to tell you, you know, you want to tell me basically, evie, if you stop talking to this person, your life will be easier, right? You know, cut this person out of your life, right? And I'm like, no, I want to tell you how I feel. No, this makes me feel this way. This makes me feel that way. But you don't know. And you're just kind of like, all you have to do is cut them.

Out of your life.

Cut this person out of your life. Or all you have to do is this one thing. Problem solved. You are instructional. Let's just get to the point. What do we got to do to fix it? One, two, three, Done. Identity is. I don't want to hear that. I want to take you on the journey with me to tell you how I feel. This person, or when we are in that space. This means this person just wants to tell you how they're feeling. They want to tell you about their identity. What's happening is about their identity. So they don't want. She doesn't want your solution. She doesn't want you to tell you what to do. She wants you to listen to her. And so it's not even about solving it. And so I think that's another place where we get stuck. We like, here, here's the solution. And it's like, no, no, I don't want that. And you're like, but you're telling me you have this problem if you just do this, you're instructional. Their identity.

What are you.

I'm typically instructional. I'm very like, just tell me what I need to know. I don't need to go through the circle. But when I speak to other people and I realize that their identity, or in that moment, they want to tell me this whole story. And I'm just like, dude, all we got to talk about this one Little thing, problem solved, and I let them go.

Wow.

If you have the patience. It depends what the topic is, but she's identity based, so I think every time you talk with her, if you see that she's not wanting to get to the point and figure out the solution where she just wants to tell you about her feelings, how this makes her feel or how this hurts her, or if it's about her. Her identity, then that's what she's doing. It's not about the solution.

Whether you were in the Secret Service doing an interview or an interrogation or in the real world Now, I guess that is the real world. But after now, what are the social cues or psychological behaviors, body language responses that people have before you take the polygraph test to know whether or not they're actually telling the truth? What are those few things that you would see? We talked about the body language. Are there other things that would happen, social cues or behaviors?

Interesting. Everybody would assume that the polygraph was the. The lie detector. Like, you just ask the question. Come on in, have a seat, Louis, let's hook you up. Did you steal when you were a kid? You know, did you steal that gum or did you steal that? And then it just tells me everything. And it doesn't really work that way. Like, typically, the lie detector is the person. So you sit across from a person, you have a conversation, and as we're discussing something, let's say you're applying to the US Secret Service. We'll make you a recruiter.

Okay, give it to me.

And so we're asking you all these questions about your education, your background, drugs, whatever it is. And let's say we get to. I say to you, louis, did you ever steal anything? And so now I look at. Are there any shifts? Are any changes? Do you change the direction? No, people are usually not that obvious. You know, they're. But you can see. You can see something. You can feel it. It's also feeling people. I think that gets dismissed quite a bit, that it's not just see, hear. You know, it's like, it's also. You can feel another human being energy. Yeah, you can. And it's intuitive. And we should allow that and listen to that more rather than shut that down. But it would be, you know, if I would ask you that I would hear the way you responded. Did you respond similarly to all the other questions? The same way? Is your, you know, let's say if I said, Louis, did you ever, you know, I asked you all these other historical questions, and you're like, no, no, no. And then I say, Louis, did you, have you ever stolen anything? Absolutely not. So now, something like that, as small as that, I may mark that. I was like, okay. He said, no, no, no, for everything else. But here he said, absolutely not.

Interesting.

Why is it a bit more emphatic.

He cares more about either protecting something or that it actually isn't the truth? He doesn't want that to be out of.

But I will notice that it's different that you did something different. Even if you. Now, it could be a very subtle thing or you might not give me anything. There are some people, and I've had those people where it's just like poker.

Face all the way through some people.

But they'll, I don't want to say they're professional liars, but some people, you know, would come in, especially if it was a criminal case and they're guarding their, the truth really hard and you have to try to figure out what that is. Or some people come in and it's, I swear to God, God, God knows I would never do such a thing. Those are usually red flags, unless it's a culture or a person who typically does it. If so, they, if they always say, I swear to God, I swear to my mom, then it would be like, look, this is part of this person's natural language, or maybe in their culture, they refer to God quite a bit, but if it's not, and then you start doing that, then again that's a red flag. So that's what you're really looking for. Rather than we have some of these cookie cutter things, it's like, everybody does this. Everybody, everybody does that. Now, are these things, I'm talking about indicators? They, they are, but you may do them and I may not. I may do something else.

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What do I do when I lie?

We all lie at something, right?

We do. I do. I do. Small or big? My husband's like, did you have a donut this morning? No, I didn't have a donut.

What do you lie about? The most professional or personal. And what in each category?

Maybe, like, if I'm mad because I'm mad, I have a pretty bad temper. So it's like, oh, no, I'm fine, you know, And I'll. Because sometimes I'll know. I'm like, you know, I have a temper, and sometimes I know I'm being irrational, and I don't want to open up a whole conversation. So I'll just be like, no, I'm okay. I'll leave it. Because I'll know it's me. I'm trying to think, what do I lie about? Maybe work. If it's a project I don't want to do. But usually that's what you have agents and managers for. Because they do it for you.

Sure.

They shut it down for you. I'm trying to think. I mean, we all lie, but I try to keep it, like, usually for me, it's like. Because I'm like a. You know, I like donuts and I like things. Cookies. I like things. So my husband's like a health fanatic. So, like, how'd you eat today? You know, I was like, oh, this was okay. I was pretty solid, you know. Oh, okay. So he'll know what I'm trying to say.

Is there such a thing as person being radically honest all the time?

No, I don't. I've never. I've not come across that. But I think. Here's the thing. It's okay to lie because. Have you ever been very, very, very honest, maybe with a person, and then felt afterward? You know, I don't. You feel a bit exposed and you feel like, you know, I wish I didn't share this much with this person afterward. You kind of have that remorse, because we feel like it's a protection mechanism. I don't want to tell you everything about me. I don't want to be an open book. And so I may. And it may not be a lie. So by omission. So in a meeting, if somebody's pitching me a project or I'm talking about something, I don't like it, or I don't like the direction it's going, I may not say, I don't like this. I may say, thank you. You know, let me think about that. Meanwhile, I want to Say, no way. I'm not doing it. That's terrible. So that technically would be a lie. I'm like, you know what? Thank you. I'd let me think about that, but I know I can't respond the first way shuts people down. That's why I feel like we hear people say, say no. You know, being able to say no to people more so because a lot.

Of us have to protect your time, your space, energy.

Yeah.

And that's wonderful. But don't say no. Find other ways to say no. No is ugly. No is mean. No is hurtful. So I can say, thank you so much. I'll let you know. I'm not really sure if I'm able to. Let me think on that. Find alternative ways to let people down.

Why is that?

To preserve the relationship.

Because when you say no to someone, even if it's a friend, they might take it personally.

It stings, right? Why are you saying no to me? Why do you have to say like that? You can say you can reject people in a thoughtful way, in a professional way. And it just. It depends. Do you care about the relationship? And if you do, your no, your hard no, can hurt people's feelings. People become sensitive because you're rejecting them. And so I'm going to think of a different way to say no. That's not going to impact you as much. It's really using language thoughtfully. So, for example, you brought up lying. I love that. And you said, you know, when I was a kid, I lied. So I would never say to you, louis, you're a liar, or, louis, no, Louis, you're lying to me. I would say, louis, I know you're not being truthful with me, Louis, you're holding something back from me. Sounds different. So it's the same way with language. We don't. We throw our words out and we don't realize that they land on someone. And so then we scratch our heads. Heads wondering, why did this conversation not go well? It's this person's the problem when we don't have the ability to think about, how did I deliver this? So if it's a business relationship that's important to you, but you want to say no to this. You want to think of a great way to say no. So we want to think about, how do we let people down without hurting their identity? Going back to identity.

Was there ever a time when you were interviewing or interrogating someone and you didn't believe them ever, but they were telling 100% the truth?

Oh, my God. You just reminded me of this case.

You're just like, I know this person's lying to me, but at the end of the day, everything's said was pretty true, or almost 100%.

This was. This was. I've never. I had. It was such a simple case, and it was. It was not even for a lot of money. It was an ATM scam. This man was going to ATMs, and he was taking. Stealing money. Somebody would go in, use their credit card. He come from behind, take money, very simple, on the atm.

Like, put them up with, like, a gun or something.

No, no, no, no. Just follow them in. There's these little skimmers that they put on top of the machine, so when you scan your card, that it would pick up your information as well. And then you could go. There's all these different scams. So. But when you go to the atm, there's a camera there. It's got your full picture. So I have a picture of this guy, my perpetrator. It's a picture of him. I see him. His face. He's wearing a hat. He's wearing a New York Knicks hat. And I was like, here's my guy. All right. You know, I've got it. All I got to do is lay the picture on. So he shows up for his interview wearing the same New York Knicks hat. So I start speaking to him. I don't take out my evidence, right? Because I'm saving that, because that's my. That's.

You knew. This is a slam dunk.

This is a slam dunk. I was like. And he didn't even steal a lot. $500. It was something small. I don't know how it landed in my lap, but it did. And, sir, you took the money. No, no, miss, I swear to God, I would never do that. Sir, we have this. So I'm doing this with him for, like, 15 minutes. And this was a mistake on my behalf.

We have evidence. We have proof.

We have video footage of everything. No, never me. Never me. And I pull out. I think I'm being slick, and I pull out my photo of him. Boom. Right on the table. Who's that, sir? Right? And I'm sitting there. I'm all smug. I'm like, I got this guy. And he takes it, and he looks at it. He's like, looks like me? Yeah, he looks like me. He's not me. I was like, what? That's you? He's like, it looks like me. That's not me. Same hat. New York Knicks hat.

The guy Wearing the hat right now?

Yeah. No. And I. It was a craziest interview. And I remember it was for money. It was not for a lot of money. In fact, when it came to financial crimes, crimes that had to do with money, it was actually harder to get people to confess to those.

Why?

Less guilt.

Less guilt. They didn't hurt someone physically.

Yes.

They might have hurt them financially.

Yes. I'm at home. I'm sitting behind my computer. I'm in my fuzzy slippers, or even if I'm doing it at the atm, I'm not stealing from you. I'm stealing from the bank. But it's different when I walk by you and actually put my hand in your pocket. It's different when I go into your home and I assault you. So there's that level of guilt when it's money, and especially if you steal it from an institution. Zero guilt. Those were the hardest to get. But, yeah, that was my guy. I will never forget it. That's why I started laughing.

Was it him or was it not him?

It was him. We arrested him anyway because we had the proof. But it's always great to get. It's always helpful to have a confession because it really just kind of seals everything. You've got the evidence, you've got this.

The person said it, but he never agreed to it.

No, no.

He said, it looks like me, but it's not me.

No, same New York snake hat.

Yeah.

I don't know. I guess he's from New York, who doesn't like the Knicks? He does nothing. And you could see his face looks like me. I got nothing from him.

Really?

Yeah.

So he never actually told the truth, but it was in fact him.

Who was him? I mean, we had evidence, we had prints, all that stuff. But, yeah, no, he. He. You know, to the end. No, not me.

Could you tell, like.

I couldn't tell.

You couldn't tell he was lying or not?

I couldn't tell. No. He was so believable. But I knew going in that he was my guy.

Right.

So that's why I was like, I know it's him. But it was just, like, stoic. And there's a moment, I'm like, is it not him?

Right.

Things are so good. You're like, my scene is right. Turn the photo around. I'm like, no, no, it's him. It's him, it's him. No, no, this is you. So some people are that good. Some people are that good. They will. Some people. And I think this is. Look, this was also somebody who committed a lot of crimes. And he was used to it.

He knew how to get out of it.

So certain people who are. Who lie a lot usually become better at it. Or they, or they don't feel bad. It becomes. They come better at masking it. You obviously have a great conscience and so it bothered you. And so all your tells were shown. You couldn't concentrate.

Your heart is bumping. Like you're chest is tight, your throat is clenching.

You're like it bothered you.

Yeah.

Which is a healthy thing. It's actually a healthy thing when it bothers you. We tend to see in people who have sociopathic tendencies or antisocial tendencies, those people don't tend to be bothered. And so they can lie and can be quite calm about it because they don't feel that guilt. The majority of people will feel guilt. So the majority of people will feel the way you feel because you know it's wrong, you feel it. Whereas those individuals with those tendencies, they don't care.

What about a situation that you lied your way through where someone believed you? Is there a situation like that in the last three to five years where you lied about something you're not proud of? Maybe, or. But people believed you. And more than just, oh, I'm having a good day.

Lie.

You know what I did, I could probably confess to this. This was so long ago. I went and got. It was back in the day, I got a money order from Western Union, the post office.

Post office.

And you know, I was like, young. I was a kid, I wasn't making a lot of money. I was in college. And so I asked for a money order for like 3.99. I pay, I get it. And then as I'm leaving, I see 499. And I'm like, oh, 100 bucks. Hundred bucks. And I took it. And to this day I remember it. It bothered me.

Really?

Yeah, it bothered me.

Did it bother that you didn't tell the truth right then and say, hey, you guys gave me money?

No, I took the money. Yeah, I took the money.

It bothered you that you lied about it?

Statute of limitations, I think I'm okay. I took the money. It bothered me after because I knew it was. I knew it was wrong. I will tell you this one story. We went.

Did that come up in the Secret Service interview? Did you ever steal something like money when you were younger?

You know what? I did lie about and did come up in my secret Service interview? I'll tell you that when I applied for the job, when I went to College. My parents and I love my family. They weren't very supportive. They weren't very supportive of my decisions. My dad was a bit difficult. They didn't really want me to go. And so when you apply for college, you need their paperwork, their tax paperwork. I needed aid. They couldn't afford it. Right. And so my dad was so upset with me, he wouldn't give me his tax paperwork to go to college. Yeah. They didn't agree with my decisions because I was going to private school that they could not afford. And I was like, I'll figure it out on my own. But either way. And so I lied. When I went to the school, I said, I can't get this tax paperwork. You know, the main person was there is like, well, you think you can't get aid? And so I went back to the school later on, and I said, I'm not living at home. I'm alone. Can I get aid? I can't get access to this tax paperwork. And then I got aid. So I flat out. I. Yep, I lied. And I spilled the beans in my polygraph.

I was like, you told them this is what happened.

I said, I lied to get financial aid because I couldn't qualify for aid. And so I was like, you know, they didn't care that I was like, look, my dad, my mom, they won't give me their tax paperwork. They're so upset with me. They don't agree with my decision to go to this school to do this. And they're like, no, unless you don't have your parents in your life. I was just like. I was like, I'm going to college. Yeah. And I lied. But in my polygraph, I was like, I have to tell you something, actually. I said it before they hooked me up, and I said, look, I did. I lied about this. I did this. You know, like, why did you do it? I was like, I wanted to go to college. I couldn't get money to go to school, so I was okay. I got the job.

Wow. How many things did you tell. Did you confess to before you took the polygraph?

That was my biggest thing. Yeah, that was my thing. Drugs. Like, I didn't. I never had. Despite growing up in New York, I never had any issues. I. I always stayed away from it, I think, because I saw so much around it of that around me. And the more people kind of put it in my face, the more I was kind of like, I'm not doing that. But probably would have been the opposite if nobody did it. I'd be the One to be like, oh, I'm gonna try this. I think that was the biggest thing. It weighed the heaviest with me because I was like, I did this bad thing. I lied on my financial aid paperwork to get aid. I'm hoping the statute of limitations is expired on that as well. I paid back all my loans.

I'm sure it's fine.

Yeah, I paid back all my loans.

When you're in an interrogation or an interview or you're on a first date or you're at a job interview in your career, or any type of first interview with any situation, what's the best way to build command authority and credibility?

Yeah. So you can do very simple things like when you greet someone, hi, how are you? Come on in. Why don't you use the bathroom before we get started? So I'm not asking you, would you like to use the bathroom? I'm telling you, why don't you go use the bathroom? Why don't you have something to drink? What can I bring you? Right, so I'm. I'm in this subtle way, I'm telling you to go to the bathroom, and you're going to go because of the way I said, why don't you go to the bathroom? No, no, go. Before we get started. Right. You just said authority. Why don't you have something to drink? Oh, no, I'm good. No, have something to drink.

So now we're going to be here for a little bit. Have something to drink.

So now I'm planting these little seeds, telling you I'm in control. I'm not telling you, but I'm doing it subtly. Have a seat there. You know, you can show me where. Where to sit. Or on the flip side, you could also practice something called autonomy, where you let somebody choose their own seat. And that's a different tactic. So there's two tactics.

Where would you like to sit?

Yeah, where would you like to sit? So you may use that on me if you want to talk about a topic that I don't want to talk about. And so autonomy makes me feel like I have a choice. You let me choose where I'm going to sit because you're going to let me have it later. You're going to try to push me on something later.

I gave you something. Now. The law of reciprocity means you give me something later.

Exactly. But also autonomy, though, it's actually also not reciprocity. It's actually more of I feel in control because we don't like to feel like we're not in control. So if you want to talk about something where I'm really uncomfortable, I don't feel like I'm in control, I will give you control elsewhere. So I will give you control in picking where you want to meet. I will give you control in what time. I will give you control in where you want to sit. Little things like that you can do where that person has autonomy to choose. We can do it here. We can talk about this or we can talk about this. Which would you prefer? That's. Nobody likes to feel like they don't have control. So a way that you can deal with a resistant person is by giving them some level of control.

When you're going on a first date, how is it. And you've been maybe in an abusive relationship in the past where you were a doormat, you were walked on, you had no control, no authority. The person that you were in a relationship with walked over your boundaries, took advantage of all that, and you've had time to heal and now you're getting back out there.

Yeah.

How can that person create a great dating experience and that first date to put themselves more in the driver's seat with some authority and not a doormat mentality.

All right, so there's two things. I think the first thing is don't take out on that person what was done to you by somebody else.

That's the worst.

Because we've all been victims of things to some degree. Right. And let's say even if it was, it was abusive, it was horrible, it was that. It is also not fair to take that out on an innocent person. Like to take your trauma out to someone else. And sometimes we can feel trauma elsewhere and then project it onto someone else who didn't cause that to us. So I would say that's the most important, most important thing because it will allow you to connect. The other thing I will say is the majority of people tend to trust. When we have relationships with people, we tend to go and trust people. So when someone says something to you, you tend to believe it.

We believe it.

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Engineered that way, and I don't even know why that is. But we tend to, to, to sway towards trusting the person. In law enforcement. Actually, it's the opposite. Law enforcement officials are notorious for thinking people are deceitful. So the average person believes people are honest. Law enforcement believes people are deceitful because they deal with more people who lie. But that causes a problem elsewhere because when you do have innocent people who are telling the truth, they're telling you the truth. And then you get false confessions, you get problems. You're looking at the wrong person because you're confirmation bias. That's a whole other animal over there. But knowing that we tend to give people, we tend to believe people automatically. Just hold a little bit of that back.

Don't believe less.

Just be more reserved in how much you trust.

Discerning about it.

Yes. Just don't put it all out on the table. Oh, my God, this guy's great. Or gal's great. I just connected with them. And then what we do, we go nose in. And so you don't want to give unconditional trust. So unconditional trust is like, I give you now trust across the board. I trust you in everything. When you start dating someone or any new relationship, even in business, always conditional trust. I'm not going to trust you all the way. I'm going to trust you part of the way. So now here's the thing. We love to trust unconditionally, which is probably why we tend to just want to give people trust. It's less work. I could just turn my brain off. I can trust you, Louis.

Great story.

Yeah, Lewis, ask me anything you want. Because you asked me in the beginning, is there anything off the table? I'm like, no, Lewis, go ahead and ask. But you give that person unconditional trust, and I don't have to think so hard. I don't have to worry if you're going to manipulate me. I don't have to be on my guard. It's easy. It's easier. That relationship, conditional trust means I have to be a bit more careful. So it's like me going to buy a car. I know I'm dealing with a car salesman. I know I should be careful. It's just understood that they try to get you to buy certain things. They use certain language. So when I go in, I go in with conditional trust. And so I'm better protected. That's why there. You're less likely to get hurt in those situations where you understand, I can't fully give everything to this person. I can't fully trust them conditionally. I can. So I. Excuse me. Unconditionally. So I have to just be careful. The thing is, that's work. It's a lot of work. We get tired, we access a specific part of the brain. When we do that, a more complex part part of the brain. So that's why unconditional trust, you don't want to give it right away. And that is why when we get betrayed by people close to us, that's why it hurts most. Yeah, it's usually by people who betrayed us on who we give unconditional trust to. Yeah, that's my advice for dating.

That's when it stings Would you use the same approach if, let's say, you're, you know, I haven't been on a first date in forever, but let's say you're on a date, your first date with someone, would you say, hey, why don't you have some water? Why don't you use the restroom first? Where would you like to sit? Would you do the same approach there?

I would not, because I don't want to establish authority there. That's not. If you're looking to have a relationship, I would not do that. That's not. That's creepy. That's a controlling, unheard of.

What should you establish?

Trust, I think rapport and trust. And I think probably the best thing you can do is just not talk about yourself and listen to that other person, just ask about them.

What would be the.

You did that to me when I walked in. Yeah, it was like, Evie, boom, boom, boom, boom.

I was like, what would be the three questions, Three most fascinating questions someone could ask on a first date that would not be interrogational, but be connecting questions.

Ted, tell me. Tell me about yourself. Explain to me what your dreams are. Describe to me what your, you know, what your hopes are. Don't create a question, because you may ask a question that you think is fascinating, and they're gonna look at you like, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You don't write because we. You don't know what they think, like, what their aspirations are, what they're.

We're on a hypothetical first date. What would you say to me using the term.

Tell me about your podcast. I'd love to hear all about it.

Oh, okay.

Explain to me how you got into that. Describe to me like what it's like when you interview all these different people. I'm going to shut up and I'm going to let you go, Louis, because now I get to hear you. I get to see what you're like, your values, your beliefs, what excites you, what doesn't excite you. Excite you. You're going to tell me about why you started it. You're going to tell me about your background, what got you into it, any growing pains or heartaches or how this happened. You're going to tell me about your favorite guests. You're not favorite guests. You're going to tell me about the amazing things you learned or maybe some of the things that you were like, I can't believe I brought this guest on. And so now you just opened up this world, and I had to do no work and I can just listen.

These are more indirect questions, is that right?

Or open ended questions.

So don't ask a direct question. Who is your favorite guest? Don't say that.

I would tell me about, Tell me about your guests and then I would allow you to naturally tell me on your own because you feel like you're in control and it's more likely that you will tell me on your own. But if I ask you directly and if you want to protect the integrity of the people you interview because you don't want to say, this is my favorite guest, to make it public because then that's. It's going to hurt the people that come on the show, right? Your clientele, so to speak, your guests. So I would. You're not going to answer it. You're going to be reluctant. Oh, Evie, I love everybody.

It's like my kids, you know, you can't say you have a favorite kid.

It's all you kids is you're gonna say that. It's like when people ask me, who's your favorite president? I always say, I love them all. They're all. I love protecting all of them. But if somebody says, tell me about the people you protected, or tell me about the presidents you protected. Now I feel comfortable. I'm in control. I'm talking. The more we talk, the more we leak. I'm less guarded, it's less direct. I don't even know you're trying to find that. And I may naturally, on my own, get there.

Tell me about a characteristic of a president that wowed you the most. You like that opener? You like that opener?

Or you might use Ted on me.

A characteristic from one of the presidents that you were just like, obviously they're all inspiring in some way, I'm assuming for you. But tell me about a characteristic or a belief, a mindset, an approach, a strategy that one of them used that wowed you.

I liked. There's a couple. There's like little things. I'll tell you. President, former president George Bush Senior. He used to write note cards to everybody. He had a little. He wrote note cards. Thank you so much. He would just send little note cards to people. And I saw what an impact that made to people to receive a handwritten note. He hand wrote it from someone saying, thank you, I appreciate you. And to this day I do that. And I, and I took that, I took that from George, President George Bush, because I saw that and I was like, what a wonderful thing. And I saw how much of an impact that did it was a very little thing, but I took that from him. So whenever I meet someone or there's an exchange or something, I will write a handwritten note card. Thank you for your time. I appreciate it. And it, it does a lot.

Did he write you a card?

He did not write me a card. He wasn't my full time protectee. But I watched.

Yeah, you watched him actually write it for other people or you saw other people get it?

Both. You would see them when they would work and you would know what they did or didn't do, but that's what he did. Another characteristics, I think I liked President Obama. I liked the way he spoke. And for me, that was very. I appreciated that because I, although I was an agent and an interviewer, I didn't know how to speak for myself. It's weird, right? I could speak on behalf of the government and the law and all that, but I never paid attention to the way I spoke to people and what I loved. You could hear him. You could hear him. Usually you call Renegade. I could say it. It's public. It's on. It's in his book, Renegade on the Move. Right? You could, you could hear the agents say that, but you could hear him. You could hear him. You could. I love the way he echoed his voice and projected his voice and didn't hold it back. And how he took his time to speak, where a lot of people speak very fast because we feel that we're not worthy of somebody's time. I don't want to take up too much of your time, so I'm going to speak fast. We do that. We feel like, let me just hurry up and say this. This person's probably busy. They have things to do. And then he really projected his voice like it boomed through the hallways. And that was a person who was not shy of being present, of taking, taking a space and letting you know, I'm here and my voice is relevant. I like that.

That's powerful.

Yes.

Any other characteristics from anyone else?

There's so many.

The ones that wowed you, that stuck.

They all did. Like, they were all great. George Washington. George Washington. Oh, my God.

All right, how old are you?

GW President George Bush. He like, I love going to the ranch with him. I'm from New York City. I go to Texas. And I was just like, what the. You know, it was like we were out in the wild. He's like, we're going, we're going to make trails. I was like, why are we going to make trails? There's a Road right there. You know, we'd cut trails and hike. And he was very authentic. Who he was on camera, was who he was off camera and vice versa. He was very. Just real. And so you'd see these qualities with different people. And, you know, it's kind of interesting. I just thought of it. I was almost like in my own school of greatness by being in the White House. And then over all the years of about. You're around all these people, these influential leaders, despite, forget politics, it still takes a person of some.

To get there.

Yes, to get there. And so you watch them. And then not just them, they've got cabinet members, other individuals who, you know, you watch and you listen to, you see how they problem solve. And I was in my own school of greatness where I just got to be front row and you're doing your job at the same time, you're like, you're listening, you're watching, you're absorbing. I loved it.

Were there any strategies you witnessed or watched or observed from them telling you or not telling you on how they commanded respect and authority in just their way of being tonality? Was it touching people, you know, in their hand? Is it, you know, whatever it is, look, eye contact. What were the things that they did or that some of them did that really stood out to you?

So I'll tell you this. They didn't have to work as hard.

Because they're already the authority.

Because they're already the authority. So you don't. So I want to say that, like, they don't. Person can look at you like, hey, how you doing? And then like blow you off, and you're like, oh, my God, I got like a whole solid stuff. Second. Whereas when they're talking to me or you, it's just like, you only give me a second.

Yeah, right.

So they don't have to work as hard. So even the little attention they give you lands on you. However, though, eye contact is huge. When you talk to someone and you want to convey, I. You want to convey, hey, trust me and rapport. This is huge. In fact, if you go to the supermarket and you look at cereal boxes, they have cartoon. The characters on the cereal boxes, they're looking at you. You know, where a lot of them look down, they're looking down. You know who they're looking down. You'll see cereal boxes where the character.

Looks down at the cereal.

No, I'm a cereal box. Right. I'm the Trix rabbit or whatever. Right now you go shopping. I'm not looking at you. I'm looking down. Why am I looking down?

The rabbit's looking down.

Right? The rabbit's looking down. Thank you. Wow. Because the kid's the consumer.

Yeah. Not the adult.

No.

She's gonna say, mom, come grab me.

Mom, buy that for me.

Oh, my gosh.

So they designed them to actually look down, and they also put them at a certain level. And so maybe in adult serial, they'll have the person looking at higher up. Cause they're looking at the adult. Eye contact is huge. It conveys, trust me, talk to me. I'm here. I'm connected with you. Even when you want to listen to people, normally we do break eye contact. But good communicators will lock in. They're not uncomfortable. They're there. I'm with you. I'm connected with you. That is huge.

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It's a strategy.

It's a strategy is, you know, hey, you know Louis, and you know, and maybe I like to touch your forearm. Yeah, you can do that. But I will say, today you can't do that. Today is very different. You know, they would teach us that. They're like, hey, you can touch the top of a person's knee and just be like, hey. And I could be like, whoa, unwanted touch. So now I would actually go against that. I would actually encourage people not to do that just simply because you don't know how it's going to be received. And now today it's. You got to be a little bit less is more with that shaking your hand, maybe.

And that's it for. I think so, second hand on the top, like a genuine heartfelt for two seconds and then let it go.

Yeah, I think so. I think so. You want to respect people's space. It's a little bit different. I think we have more. Well, we do have more social space now. It's interesting how that's going to change the dynamics of how we interact in the future.

Interesting. How do you build that trust without being present and more connected and touching and.

Right. And you have a mask. You can't even see the lower portion of a person's corner face, which conceals their expressions, their gestures. So it's even harder to read them.

So how do we read people like that? Is it more body language then of like, shoulders down as opposed to.

It's harder. The tone, the inflection of the voice, does it change? Does it not the body posture again? Sometimes it's just as simple as how they say something. You know, the way they deliver a story. For example, when I worked cases, sometimes I did. I did interviews and interrogations, and I would be asked to help local police departments sometimes, and they'd say, look, we have this case and it. We've got three suspects, but we can't figure out who it is. And I would, you know, I'd always want to interview the person I thought it was. And so I would say, send me. Do you have statements? And they say, yes. And I'd say, send me the statements that they wrote.

Written statements. Written statements about what they said. Their story is.

Their story is correct. Because these are people typically that had been already interviewed by local police. They got nothing, they have no proof. So they would reach out and they say, look, you guys are polygraph examiners. You have a bit more expertise in this. Will you help us out? It's an important case. And so I say, send me their statements. And so I'd look at their statements, and based on their statements, I would Be able sometimes, most of the time, to tell who likely did it. And it was those statements that. And this also happens when we tell a story, when we speak, when you ask somebody, what did you do yesterday? When they deliver, you deliver a beautiful story to you that has a beginning every two minutes.

Yeah.

And an end. It's an arc. When it's a story, it's an arc is typically manufactured.

That's a lie usually.

Yes. Because we don't typically talk about our stuff like that. And so when I would read a store, I would read a statement. And if I read like a story, because the person's like, the liar is like, oh, I gotta write a story. I gotta tell them what I did here, then did here. They're manufacturing it. A truthful person is gonna write how their day went. And a truthful person also makes spontaneous corrections. So it contradicts what a lot of people think in that if I correct myself as I'm telling you something, then.

It looks like I'm hiding something and I'm.

I looks like I'm. Yes, I'm correcting myself because I'm hiding something. I can't remember my lie. And it's actually not true.

Those are the honest ones.

Yes.

Oh, actually, that was a mistake.

It's a spontaneous correction. When it's unsolicited and somebody you're speaking to or even in writing, you'll see a scribble. It's okay. If it's a spontaneous correction, meaning they're correcting themselves as they're speaking to you, it indicates truthfulness.

That's an interesting little yes.

And also too like a little one, when somebody uses quotes, when they talk to you, they'll say, oh, he said and quote. You know, they'll tell you something somebody said in quotes, like, he said, you know, this in quotes. That's also truthful.

The air quotes. When someone uses that. Not on the written paper quotes, but.

Oh, even in both. Yes.

Someone uses quotes.

Yes.

And I repeat this, said this. That means they're telling more likely the truth.

Yes, Truth.

Why is that?

Because they're. They're being very specific. We also know, based on the research, people who lie, lie vaguely. Remember I said it's work. It's hard work. It's. You're trying to create a lie, tell a lie, remember the lie. Listen to the person speaking to you. Think about what you want to say. There's so much going on. And so what they do is they. They lie vaguely because it's too hard for me to remember all These details, create all these details. It's just too much of. It's a heavy cognitive load.

What would you say is the way to overcome self doubt and build confidence? Some things they could do.

Stop doing things that you're only comfortable with. Take risks, make decisions. I think I've noticed that with people who lack confidence, they're quite indecisive. Indecisiveness is a big thing. And what they will do is they will go take a survey and ask everybody around them, what do you think I should do? What do you think I should do? And you're asking a person who has no ability to. You're asking someone with no expertise about something. It'd be like, love, mom, but it'd be like me asking my mom, hey, mom, do you think I should do this TV show? And she'd be like, what did you say? What TV show? Oh, you gonna be on tv? You know, like, I can't ask my mom about a TV business decision. She doesn't have the experience. I can ask her about something else, you know, that she does have experience in. But indecisiveness is key.

And how does someone build decisiveness when they start?

You gotta stop asking people what to do and just do it. And then when you make a mistake, own it. Fall on your face. The more you fail, the more confident you become. You can't fear failure. I have failed, Louis. I don't even know. I feel it. I feel so much. And every. You know, and I look at it like, all right, and once that happens, once the worst thing that could happen to you happens and you are still standing, you are still there, you are still breathing like that. That builds resilience, indecisiveness. Knock that out. The minute you're like, let me ask people, stop, choose. Don't worry about it. Whether you're right or wrong, just do it.

So we gotta take risks, make decisions, fail often. Choose anything else. On overcoming self doubt that you've seen.

The way you talk to yourself in your head. Watch the language you use. Watch your mouth with yourself. So, for example, I work out. And so there are moments where it happens where I'm sitting on the sofa and I'm just like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to go run outside. I don't want to go to Jiu Jitsu. I'm tired. I want to sit. I want to eat popcorn. I don't want to do anything. I want to watch Netflix. I will never say to myself, don't be lazy. Get up. I'm not lazy. There's nothing about me that is lazy. Why would I ever say that to me? But I will say if you move, get up. Go. And I may be bitching as I'm putting on my sneakers, and I don't.

Want to do this.

I don't hate this, Whatever. But I will be putting them on and doing it and then go. But I will never call myself names. And that's something I had to learn over time.

Man, this was my entire childhood, was calling myself names. You're never going to mount to anything. You're stupid. You suck. Why did you do that? Idiot. You know, all these things, even something.

As simple as like, oh, I'm such an idiot. What did I do? Why did I put that there? And I catch myself. I'm like, don't say that about yourself. You're not an idiot. I wouldn't want another human. I wouldn't want somebody else to call me an idiot. Why would I call myself an idiot? We get pissed at other people when they call us that stuff, but we.

Don'T know we should get mad at ourselves for calling us that stuff.

Yeah.

What would you say are the three greatest skills that you have as an interrogator?

As an interrogator, I can listen. I can listen and have a person completely shred me and not say a word.

What does that mean, shred you?

Like, you can have somebody be like, I hate you. You're this, you're that. You know, you don't react in the interview room. Especially with the job. I would sit and take it because it wasn't my ego.

It's personal, too. It's not.

It was less personal.

Yeah.

But I've been able to, not always successfully, but even in my personal life, maybe without, with my husband so much, he's probably like, yeah, that's bullshit. But he's an interrogator, too, so it's all right. But typically with friendships, relationships, I'm better at. Not like, I can, you know, I can have people say hurtful or cruel things and not respond. Really, I'm not saying it doesn't hurt. And there's moments, you know, you have those moments where maybe a business relationship doesn't go well, or you have a friend or even a distant family member, and, like, they send you a horrible email that, you know, soul crushing, and you just want to point out, like, just the, you know, the lies or the inadequacies in what they wrote. And I have learned to not respond or to try not to respond. I have my moments too, but I really think to myself, is this part person worth responding to? Sometimes it's hard because it's like, I hear what this person's saying, I see what they're doing, and you want to respond. And I think it takes so much discipline to not be mean to someone who's being mean to you or hurtful to you. Yeah, that's tough because we all go through that. Yeah, every. Each one of us has people in our lives who give us hate. And you're like, how's this happening? Why is this happening? And you want to give it back. Especially when you've trusted them unconditionally.

You feel betrayed, believed everything they say you believe.

You accessed the primitive part of your brain and you gave them all that trust. You didn't give them conditional trust. You gave it all up. And then that relationship goes south and you can be distraught. That's hard.

How did you learn to respond in an empowering way or not respond at all when someone attacks you?

That. To be fair, I learned that in the interrogation room, in the interview room when we were.

You always like that? So you weren't always like that? No, it's like, screw you.

I was bad. I was bad. I was pretty bad. Yeah. I took after my father in that part, you know, and look, and I give my dad kudos in that. Like even, you know, I talked about the cursing thing and I realized where I got it when I'd go home as a kid sometimes and I'm like, dad, this person picked on me. And this, that. This is his advice. Did you say you. He never taught me to be a victim. And so sometimes being able to like say, hey, f you gives you power back to say like, I'm not going to take this. I'm not going to do this.

Yeah, the three greatest skills you have is an interrogator.

Listen, I think being able to take it when people are cruel, and I think we touched on that. It takes more self control and more self discipline to be able to not say something and say something. There's this great quote, I'm going to butcher it. Aristotle said it, I believe. And it's like, it's. To get angry is an easy thing, but to be angry with the right person for the right reason and in the right way and for the right situation is not easy and not within everybody's power, you know? And so for me, I work on that just because I naturally gravitate to that.

If you're, if you have a victim Mentality a lot. Maybe step it up and defend yourself a little more.

Yeah. Or, you know, put yourself in uncomfortable places. And when people say things to you don't. You don't want, you can't let it crush you. You got to have a little bit of that. Who are you?

Yeah. Some thick skin. Yeah.

But not even thick skin. But the ability to say, like, you're wrong. I know you're wrong. I don't even need to tell you you're wrong. And I think the third thing would be, what I learned is when you try to say something to someone and when you're going to explain something to someone, you have to ask yourself, does this person sitting across from me have the ability to understand the perspective I'm about to share with them?

Right. They may not.

And if they don't, just sit there and just be like, okay, okay. Oh, my God, look at that. Look at the time. I gotta go. And so I think not wasting your time banging down a door that it's not even a door. It's like letting that go.

I've got a couple final questions for you. Yes, this is called the three Truths. It's a hypothetical question.

Oh, I'm nervous.

Imagine your last day on earth, many years away from now.

Okay.

And you've got to accomplish everything you want to accomplish. All your dreams come true. Everything you want to do. It happens. But for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your work with you. Your written work, your books, your audio, this interview. It's all going to go with you to the next place, wherever you go. You got to take everything with you. So no one has access to your content anymore or a recording of you anymore, or your information.

Okay.

But you get a piece of paper and a pen, and you get to write down three lessons you've learned from your life that you'd want to share with the world. I call it the three Truths. What would you say would be your three truths that you would share with everyone?

Do the right thing. Even when it's not the most popular thing to do. That would be it. That. That would be a huge. Because sometimes you're doing the right thing and everybody around you is telling you, you're wrong. You're this, you're that. And it's like, if you know it to be the right thing, do it. That's not easy. Three things that I would leave behind. Right. I would.

Number two.

Say it again. I want to hear it again.

This is all you have to leave behind. Lessons that you've learned from your life lessons. I call them three truths. Do the right thing even when it's not popular.

Make your own decisions. Fail as much as possible. Because if you're the more you fail, it means the more you're doing and the more you're putting yourself out there. When you don't fail, it means you're not doing anything.

That's true.

Yeah. Oh, that was deep.

Good. I like this. I want to acknowledge you for a moment. The fact that you've gone through these different stages of your life and done the right thing, even when it's not popular.

Try you've tried to put on I might have had a little bit of Lewis and Me too, growing up. I'm not gonna. I'm far from perfect. I will say that.

Well, I acknowledge you for being in the industry and the level of service that you've had, for trying to do the right thing, trying to help people make better decisions, having justice where justice is needed, and being a force for good. You've shown as a force for good for many, many years in your level of service. So I really acknowledge you for showing up and then also moving into the next stage of your life and showing up in a different way to serve people with this type of information, to help people to spread the knowledge that you've learned in these different environments. So I really acknowledge you for the gift that you are, for showing up, for learning, for failing, for growing and all the stuff you're doing. It's really inspiring.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards growth greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode Episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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