Heal First, Love Better: The Repair Framework That Changes Everything

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There is no truth in relationship. There are just two people who are having their own experiences. And you live in your world and I live over here in my world. And as long as we're arguing for the truth, we're both gonna lose because the truth doesn't actually exist. If we're fighting the truth, we are fighting a losing battle. Period. Full stop.

So I'm curious then, how long were you dating men until you started dating your wife or women?

I was dating men basically from elementary school until I met my wife.

Really?

Yeah. I never thought there wasn't ever a coming out story. In fact, when I first met Emmy.

This is the story. I know.

When I first met Emmy.

How old were you when you started dating her?

My mid-30s. Oh yeah.

Okay. And so you were dating a man right before the.

Yeah.

Were you ever engaged to a man or married?

I was engaged at one point. I was engaged at one point.

You were engaged to a man?

Yeah. Yeah.

Interesting. So what's. I guess what's the.

I know, I know.

What's the.

What happened?

Sure. Tell me what happened. I mean, what happened. Tell me what happened or why go from dating man after man after man to now being married to a woman?

Well, first of all, I don't know is the true answer. That's just the truth. There's a term that I'm not thinking of right now that someone's gonna tell us exactly what it is.

Don't worry.

I know someone will tell this, but it's basically that we're raised in a straight culture, and so we are. You may think you're straight until all of a sudden, Emmy, my wife, walks up and I'm like, what's that? That I feel that I've never felt for another woman before.

Were you attracted to men, though, Before?

I'm still attracted to men. I'm still attracted to men. In fact, I mean, God forbid Emmy and I ever break up. I hope we never do. But I would be very confused about what to do. I would not know whether to date a woman or a man. I wouldn't have any idea what to do.

But you're not attracted to other women.

That's not. But that's not necessarily true.

Actually.

I. My aperture has opened since being with Emmy. I didn't. Emmy was like a. I did not imagine I would be attracted to a woman. I saw her and something lit up in me and I was like, oh, I remember making out with a chick when I was, like, 21 years old, but didn't think anything of it. Yeah, Yeah, I didn't think anything of it, but never in a million years could I have ever guessed. Really? Yeah. But I'm very open minded, and so I think my level of openness was like. Was such that I could even explore. Explore.

So what happened with the engagement to the man? How long were you together with or engaged for? Like, what was the total relationship?

This is a. This is. This was a tricky one because I.

Don'T know much about your backstory. You don't have a lot of this online.

No, no. Especially this one. This is the. And this is the first time we'll talk about this. This is. I'll talk about this publicly. So I met a guy on Tinder who I was living in Salt Lake. He had just moved to Salt Lake, and he. Out of the gate was basically everything I could have ever asked for.

Like, love bombing everything. Every or more looked.

I didn't know that term then.

Yeah, yeah, okay.

But yes, that's exactly what was happening.

This Wasn't the Tinder swindler, was it?

Well, it wasn't not the Tinder swindler.

But it wasn't that guy. No.

No, it wasn't that guy. No. And honestly, as I'm thinking about this, I'm like, oh, funny. This is probably in some ways what I did to other guys. Other guys. But didn't realize I was doing it anyhow. He was just making himself into the exact version that I want. I couldn't at that point.

He's the dream guy.

The dream guy. I'm in my young 20s or mid-20s. Excuse me.

He's tall, dark and handsome. He's got money, spiritual. He's got great family.

What does any of those things. But everything else he did fit whatever bill I wanted him to fit at that point. And so we got engaged after being together for a year. And as.

And it was like an explosive year, I'm assuming.

Oh, it was love bombing. The whole thing.

Charming. Travel.

The whole thing. The whole thing.

Got engaged after one year.

One year.

And then how long was the engagement?

Not long. Basically, right after the engagement ended, we. Or excuse me, after he proposed to me, things started to go big time. And all of a sudden we were looking at houses. And every time we would almost put a contract into a house, he would have reason or another why we shouldn't do that. And then I went, we. I didn't want to move in at that point. I was kind of romanticizing moving to get moving in together after getting engaged. So we didn't live together.

Okay.

And I will never forget this. I went over to his house and we had just gotten into a fight, but it wasn't actually a big fight. I don't even remember what it was.

It was a disagreement.

We were. Yeah. And. But we. I went over to his house to talk about it, and I look around his house. I walk in and all of our photos were gone. And I was like, what is going on here? And he sits me down on the couch and he's like, this is over.

Was like a month after the engagement.

Or this was a few months. A few months. Just dead. Like. Like his heart had completely left the building. And I'm like, what are you talking about, by the way? I didn't want to get. I didn't think I wanted to get married. So even getting to the point of engagement was a massive deal for me. So he. He. He tells me it's because I don't want kids, and he does. But we had talked about this again. I. I had this whole story about why I didn't want kids, I've changed my mind. But anyway, I thought I. And we date. One talked about this. I was very clear. This is. And he was totally okay with it.

Like, then he realized, I do want kids. Or that's what he says. Yeah, yeah.

So he tells me, this is the reason why he's breaking up with me.

Gotcha.

There's nothing you can do. It's over.

Even if you say, okay, I want kids now.

So I, I, I begged him. I literally, I was on the floor with my hands in prayer, just saying, so please, just give me a week to think about it. Please, just give me. And he is stone cold. There is no emotion in his face. And he just looks at me and he says, no, it's over. Like, nothing. There was nothing I could say. So I left his house, being so confused. I had no idea what was going on. Now, right before this, we had planned a trip to Mexico. We actually didn't go on that many vacations. So this was a big deal that we were going to Mexico. He had gotten us this hotel. We were going with some friends. He had gotten us, supposedly, some very nice hotel. Our friends couldn't afford it. They were staying somewhere else. We were staying in this other hotel 24 hours or 47, I don't know, one or two days before we leave, he calls me and he's like, hey, we can't go on this trip anymore. You're really stressed. I don't want to stress you out anymore. We're not going to go on this trip. And I was like, what are you talking about? I'm fine. We can go on this trip. And he was like, no, no, no. I'm launching a business. We're not going to go on this trip. And I was like, what? This was a big deal. Like, I didn't go on vacation a lot. This was a. I was like, what do you mean? Our friends are going. This. You can't just cancel this. And he, and he has all these reasons why he's launching this business. And he says, but you can go without me. You can go without me. And I'm like, I'm not gonna. Of course I'm not gonna go without you anyhow. So that happens, you know, that was maybe a few weeks before. Then he breaks up with me. Then I am super confused. I'm talking to my friends about, like, what just happened. Like, this came out of nowhere. And a friend of mine goes, maybe just call that hotel in Mexico and.

See if you Actually booked it.

Uh huh. And there was no reservation under his name. And that sent me down a rabbit hole. He walked me around his college campus at one point telling me about his football team that he played on. He was never on this football team. He told me he was going to school at the University of Utah and he moved to Utah to go to school there. He didn't even apply. He told me he worked at the hospital called. He never worked at the hospital. Like it was. It was lie after lie. And so. And by the way, at this point, I'm a matchmaker. I have a monthly segment on abc talking on the local ABC channel, talking about dating advice. I'm like, Utah's dating. You know, I'm young but I'm. So anyway, I'm doing all of this while this is all happening. Like the amount of shit I never thought this could happen to somebody like me in a million years. The amount of shame that I felt.

You're like, I'm the one giving advice or helping others with their relationship.

And yet this is happening to me.

I got duped or. Or he was lying or whatever. And I didn't see it. Cause the love bombing was so strong.

I didn't see it coming even a little bit. And it was not only the love bombing was so strong, but I wanted to see in him or us a future that was never going to exist, man. And that was.

You wanted to see in him or the relationship a future that was never going to exist?

Yeah. I had this idea of what love could look like. And the thing about love bombing is what. And on unhealthy manipulative dynamics in general is that that's the thing that keeps you coming back. Right. You. You keep coming back to this. Well, it was like this. Can it get back there? It was like this. Can it get. And it never gets back there.

You're in the power struggle constantly.

Constantly.

You want to go back to soulmate. This is perfect. Everything's amazing. Let's go back to where it was. It never goes back.

No, but listen, that's what had me go into the research. That's what had me go into school. That's what had me. I mean that relationship kicked off for me. I was interested in relationships before, obviously you became obsessed. Obsessed. Because I also wanted to know what it was about me that got me into something like that.

Of course I think I could relate to that in like just going through five kind of stressful relationships that, you know, again, we have to both take, like you said, responsibility for our Part in being in something. Not doing deeper research or not asking questions or when, you know, something felt off. Like, you know, I did similar things where I was like, huh, what is that? You know, why did they ever bring their friends around? Why do they hide this part of their life? Why do they not talk about this earlier phase of their life? Why do they, whatever it is, and just thinking, oh, but they're amazing. Like, everything's fine. It's like we have to both or everyone watching or listening has to take responsibility for those signs or signals or just saying, maybe I jumped in too quickly. I did that a lot too. It was like, let's just jump in. And it's exciting and fun and amazing. And I had multiple relationships, probably five or six long term relationships between one and three years or whatever, since I was, whatever, 18. That all ended. And it wasn't until I took full responsibility that I was the common denominator of all these. That I was the one that needed to heal the wounded parts in me that lack courage to ask those courageous questions or hold space when there was an explosion as opposed to giving in like a chameleon or whatever it might be. I needed to regulate my emotions first and then meet people from a different lens rather than meeting people from a wounded lens without doing the work.

I will say, though, that part of us learning how to regulate our nervous systems is practice, of course. So it's really easy to under the fire, do the work when you're single.

Yeah. When there's nothing new. Yeah, I'm fine in the relationship when it's stressful.

Yeah.

It's interesting you say that because when I got started to cut you off here.

No, no, please.

When I was in the end of a previous relationship, there was a time where I was just like. It was like a year of just intense power up and down, up and down. Every few days. It's like repair and then struggle, repair, struggle. It was like exhausting. And I was like, I finally was like, I can't do this anymore unless we need therapy. And she resisted it for about a year. And I was just like, I'm done. Unless we can do this. This is exhausting. We finally agreed we do therapy after a couple months. I remember being like, oh, I cannot be in this relationship. It was clear. Like, I tried, I wanted it, but I was like, it's clear, I cannot be in this relationship. And I remember talking to the therapist. I was like, I think I'm gonna end it right now. Which was. Took a lot of courage for me. Just to even do that, because I never wanted to end relationships because I thought it was a failure if it ended right. So I was like, I want to work to the very end. It's like, I'm willing to do whatever it takes. But then it's like, sometimes what it takes is just, like, moving on. And the therapist said, you can do that right now. But I worry if you do it right now without integrating these tools in this pain in the relationship, you might just do the same thing again in the future. So, again, I'm not here to tell you what to do. Like, it's your life. And I think when a therapist or a coach tells you do this or do that, I think you have to, like, understand that. She was like, I wouldn't recommend ending the relationship right now. I would recommend you applying what you're learning so you can integrate it and have more safety in chaos. And that's what I did for three months. I mean, I spent, like, three months of dealing with, almost every week, a silent treatment for a couple of days, antics, screaming, all these things. And I just said, I see what you're doing. When you're ready to talk, we can talk, but not until you're calm. And I would spend days in the same home without speaking to someone who just wanted to throw these kind of things to get a reaction, because that was hurt.

That's what ended up happening.

After a couple of months, I just said, this isn't working. I want the best for you. Like, calmly ended it and just said, I want the best for you. We don't have alignment on our values and our vision, and that's okay. And I want the best for you, and I want to keep doing therapy and healing it. And I know I'm not perfect. I want the best for you, but this is not working. And she didn't like that. You know, she didn't want that. Yeah, she wanted me to keep, you know, giving into whatever. And then I felt actually peace with full within me because I was handling conflict without running away from it.

Yeah.

Without stuffing it or running away from it. I was facing it for months, and it wasn't comfortable. I didn't enjoy it. It's not what I wanted. But it gave me confidence and courage that, oh, I can handle this again if it happens, and I can respond differently than how I've responded for decades. And that's been a beautiful blessing. Integrating tools in the chaos when it doesn't feel good, well, and then you.

Carry it onto your next relationship, and.

That'S what I've done. And that's what it's allowed me to have harmony in my soul.

It is the. It's like exposure therapy.

It is. You know, you don't want it.

You don't want, you want to run.

Away from it as fast as possible.

As fast as possible. But we need it. You know, I'm pretty claustrophobic and have been my whole life. And it's something I've worked on my whole life. I will tell you that only thing.

That'S need to bury yourself in a coffin.

I've tried it. I've tried every single thing you could think of to work with this. And the thing that has worked the best over and over is little by little exposing myself to small spaces. And so this is what we need to do with our nervous. Our nervous systems need this. Our nervous systems need to come up against friction and know that we're okay and then see that we're safe and then do it again and again and again. We need to build a resilience. Now this is tricky because we live in a virtual world that is more and more becoming frictionless. It's helping us. We don't need to leave our couch to do anything.

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Quince.com Lewis but the real world of your relationship requires friction. So now we're living in a world where more and more we're expecting frictionless experiences over here on the virtual world. But what we actually need and now it doesn't match up with what's happening in the real world. And so what we actually need time and time again is to come up against. It's like cold exposure, right? You get in a cold bath and it sucks the first time and you get out after five seconds and then the next day you get in in your seven seconds and the next day you get it in your 10 seconds and before you know it, after a month or two or three minutes, that's a big deal. But there's no way you could have sat in three minutes at the beginning. So what does that actually look like? Oftentimes it looks like dealing with friction outside of tension that's happening with you and your partner. So maybe your partner has something, you know, they have an issue at work and your talking to them about that. Right. So you're like, okay, that sounds like. That sounds like it's really hard. Or with small little things that you would normally brush under the rug. Right. So like maybe we're talking the thermostat. Right. That's something that you've. Could you like it cold and your partner likes it a little bit warmer and so you're okay with it being cold and. Or, you know, you'll just like deal with it. Okay, well, what if you actually said, hey, do you mind if we turn it up a little bit and then dealt with whatever tension you feel? I mean, this is why boundaries are so hard to set. It's not the boundary itself that's hard. It's the repercussions in the aftermath after. But if we, and I will speak to boundaries.

Reaction to a boundary.

Yes, that's the point.

This doesn't work for me. This. I'm, you know, I'm not giving into this or I'm going to stay here. And the reaction to someone not liking.

The boundary, it's the hardest part. That's the thing that we need to work. That's the nervous system. Resist.

Be like in it when someone's reacting. Right.

It's so hard.

Like you mentioned that. It's a good analogy. It's like we almost need to have a nervous system thermometer where we are able to have extreme heats and extreme colds and still feel comfortable. Like we need to be able to expand our range of emotional tension.

Yes.

So that we can. Maybe we don't like it, but we can handle it.

And I wouldn't say it's comfortable. I actually don't know if it ever. But you know that it's not going.

To throw you, it's not going to kill you.

Yeah. And you trust that you have. I think building capacity, nervous system capacity is one of the most, most important skills we can build.

Every neuroscientist I've interviewed, almost all of them, when I say, what's the number one skill that every human being should have? These are neuroscientists and brain surgeons that I interview that I asked this Question to. They say the number one skill is emotional regulation. Emotional regulation. And you mentioned before, this is something that most of us, probably 99% of us, are never taught in schools or by our parents, unless you have a parent that has been trained on how to do this themselves. And we're usually reacting or responding or mimicking someone who has never been trained in this. And so it's no one to blame. It's not like we have to blame someone in our lives, but it is a responsibility if we want to live a better life, to learn the tool of emotional regulation. And like you said, it's exposing ourselves to these uncomfortable feelings in our nervous system where we feel hot or cold. Again, we may not like it, but we've got to learn to. To navigate it and learn to sit with it and be firm in our boundaries when we're experiencing it.

And there is no way around it.

No way.

You cannot escape this if you want to have a meaningful, intimate relationship. There is no way around this.

Then what would you say, then, are the three signs that someone doesn't have good boundaries in a relationship?

Well, first, let's define boundary, right? Because I think it's something we misunderstand. We often think that a boundary has to do with somebody else changing, doing something different. Like, I don't like the way you talk to me, so stop talking to me like that. That's my boundary. But a boundary, isn't that A boundary is a way to take care of yourself. And boundaries and threats can sort of get interchanged, and they're not the same. But a threat is like, if you talk, you know, if you keep talking like that, I'm gonna leave right now. Like, that's like a threat. There's like a. But if you say, hey, listen, I can't actually hear you and show up if you keep talking to me like that.

Yeah.

So I'm gonna leave, and then let's come back in 20 minutes when we both calm down and I'm happy to continue the conversation. That's a boundary. A boundary is taking care of yourself. It's taking care of yourself.

And it's not saying that in a negative way. Like, you said it very calm, versus when you stop being like, a little brat. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna come back. Yeah. It's not like it's how you present it also, probably. I mean, it doesn't mean you can still be firm. You don't have to be, like, loving and Kumbaya, but it's like, you don't want to degrade someone as well, with your boundary.

It's the difference between a kind of ultimatum. Like, an ultimatum is a threat. Essentially, an ultimatum is something you're probably not gonna act on, but you're gonna say it. Like, you know, if you talk to me that again, if you talk to me like that again, I'm leaving. Like. Like this relationship is over. And yet two days later, you're back, great makeup sex, and you're fine. Quote, unquote fine. And you. Like, that's a threat. That's an ultimate but. But actually speaking from a place of understanding what your needs are, which is also tricky because most of us have not ever really had our needs met by a caregiver or parent, like, really deeply, unless we were super fortunate. Then a lot of us are working with, what do I need? I've never even really had that.

I don't even know what I need.

I don't know. And so starting to understand where your limit is is gonna be a practice. It's a practice. Right. So you said the top three things for.

What are the three biggest signs that you don't have good boundaries in a relationship?

That you don't have good boundaries? Well, one is your. You. You need the other person to change. Like, you have that expectation that. That in order for me to feel better, you have to change. You have to do something different.

Okay, that's. Number one.

That's a bit. I mean, that's a. By the way, I just want to keep saying this. Easier said than done.

Yeah. Yeah.

So you expect somebody to change, and. And in their changing, you feel better. That's the. That's the misrepresented form of boundaries.

But I've done that. I've changed over and over again. And the other person still never feels better.

Yeah.

There's always more for them to change.

Oh, 100.

Never enough. Yeah, never enough. Never. Never. It's so funny, before you go to the second sign, that was when I got in a committed relationship with Martha. We were dating for months and all these things, but once we agreed to be, like, exclusively committed to each other, I said that I have only one rule. Essentially, I was like, there's nothing you can do that will upset me. Nothing. I'm sure maybe I'd get frustrated, but there's really nothing that's going to make me be like, I can't believe you did this. Maybe there's things I didn't like or whatever, but nothing to really like upset me. Unless you do one thing, and that's you don't Accept me. If you try to change me for something that you don't like or whatever and you need me to change to make you feel better, this relationship will not work. I said there's only one thing. You have to accept me for who I am, where I'm at. And in that acceptance, you also have to know that I'm committed to my own personal healing journey for life. I'm committed to growth. I'm committed to feedback, receiving feedback. I'm committed to, you know, investing in myself in the different parts of me to continue to grow as a human being, spiritually, physically, mentally, psychologically. I don't know many men who are willing to do that for life or commit to it, who have been showing up consistently. And I'm also not going to be perfect. I'm also extremely flawed. I'm also make a lot of mistakes. I also this all these things that I know that I have to improve on. I'm not the perfect person. I'm flawed, I have bad thoughts, I have bad moods, all these. So you're not going to get a perfect human being from this. But you can never try to change me. And the reason why is because I'm never going to try to change you. I'm always going to accept you based on my experience of you. If this is who you say you are, and I continue to see your actions match your words throughout the next six months, year and so on, you know, as long as you don't swindle me in the next few months, if this is essentially who you are, your main personality, I'm choosing to accept this personality. I know it's going to evolve. I know when you're pregnant it'll be different. I know in this it'll be different. I know there's going to be differences, but as long as you accept me for where I'm at, I'm going to accept you. And the only time that we've really had disagreements is when I feel she hasn't accepted me and I bring it back to her. She hasn't done it in probably a year and a half. But in the first couple years I'd be like, I told you, have I ever been upset for you or anything? She said, no. The only time I'm going to get frustrated is if you don't accept me for something. And it doesn't mean we can't talk about it. We can talk about anything. Consciously talk about it, address it, go to therapy about it, do workshop, I don't care. We'll do all of It. But you can't try to change me. I'm going to evolve and grow on my own, and you either need to accept me as the man that you chosen to be with, or don't be with me because I'm not trying to change you. And she stopped doing that after, like, the first year and a half. Like, she. It's not like she was doing it, but the only time that I would, like, react was when I was like, you're trying to change me. Like, that's the one. The bear came out a little bit. Not like I was screaming or anything, but it was more like defensive mode.

Totally.

I was like, don't try to change me right now. You know, it's not that it doesn't feel good to me. Oh, I don't care. She's done movies with, like, sex scenes and kissing guys. Like, zero frustration, jealousy, upset. Zero. I have zero jealousy. And she has to, like, kiss guys in movies. She doesn't have to, but she has. And she's got guys all. You know, she's a movie star. Zero jealousy. I've not once tried to check her phone. I've not once been like, who's this guy? I0. And I said, you're getting a man who is committed to not giving you any stress and giving you as much as I can give. Don't try to change me. And you can ask her. You know, we're four and a half years in again. I'm not 20 years deep yet, but you can ask her, has Lewis ever gotten upset at you for anything ever, except for when you try to change him? She'll say no.

This is so fascinating because there's a frame here. We were talking about boundaries, and I also know we haven't finished this, so I'm sorry.

Give it to me.

Okay. Okay. So Dr. Alexandra Solomon is fantastic. And she has this frame that she talks about around the change and accept partner.

Give it to me.

I think this is so good.

Is this the 70% rule?

No, that's the one that we talked about, the 70. That's the unrepairable. That's the part.

That's the change in acceptance. What is this? Okay, set this up for me.

Okay. So oftentimes, not every time in a relationship, but oftentimes in relationships, there is going to be. They're going to be. Each of you is going to hold one side of the pole. One of you might hold. And I don't know that this is you two. So is going to hold the pole of change. I want to be in therapy. I want to go to the workshops. Let's read the books. Let's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Also me. Also me.

Also me. Here.

And the other partner is what she calls the acceptance partner. And this is the partner who's like, but can't we just relax?

Yes.

Can't we just like, isn't it all good the way we are now? Like, don't. Like, can't it just like, can't things be okay the way they are? They're. They're fighting for like presence and peace and just while one's fighting for growth, the other is fighting for like the calm peace.

Let's just literally just relax. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all good.

Yeah.

Let's not face our traumas anymore. Like, come on, let's just chill. Let's just chill.

Let's just still have fun.

Just have fun.

Yeah, totally. Now those two things polarize one another, right? When one partner is like, let's go to therapy. And the other's like, we don't need therapy. Like, when those two poles stretch, that's going to be really tough. And it happens all the time. In fact, I think it was one of the most viral videos is this video. And the most scathing comments I have ever gotten are on this video. Because people want to just, just rail the acceptance partner. Like they're lazy. They never, you know, like, they just want to go after them. Like it's. I'm the one who's doing all the work. I'm. If it wasn't for me, we wouldn't move an inch. Nothing would get done in our relationship. And there's part that's true about that, but what needs to happen is that it's sort. It's actually similar to what we were talking about earlier around the co regulation and auto regulation. And if you're better at co regulating, you need to, you need to get. You need to learn autoregulating is. They both come towards the other. They both. The acceptance. If, if the acceptance partner starts to now engage the change partner in conversations that are growth oriented, asking like, what. What was challenging for you today? I'd love for you to talk about your innermost world. Right. To a change partner that's like swoon, like the best. Right? And if the change partner says, let's get therapy this week, why don't we just go do something fun, let's hang out. Then the acceptance partner's like, I want.

To go to therapy. Yeah. You want to do more of it?

Yeah. They can start to Depolarize. Just depolarize the word. I don't know. Anyway, one another just kind of relax one another.

Right?

Exactly. But both sides need to. And it's not exactly what you're talking about, but it made me think of it because of the change. Change. Except. Except if both sides can actually come to one another and say neither is right. And I will tell you right now, especially in the self development space, the change partners, they're right. I am a change partner. I think I'm right. I have to tell you, I still think I'm right. But in my. I, I will say there was one moment that I, I could process endlessly. This is my favorite game is let's go to therapy process.

Suppose you just. Suppose you just move on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my wife is very different. And so one day she comes up to me and she was like, I have to tell you, I have hit my limit. Like I've hit compulsion.

Process anymore.

I can't process anymore. And for what? She had said that before. And I heard it more from her wounding. For whatever reason, I heard from the relationship's wisdom speaking. I like to think about the relationship having three you, your partner, and the relationship entity itself. And that this comes from a friend and colleague, Annie Lala, who's fantastic. She's a love coach. But I love thinking about this relationship entity that has wisdom for you that's outside of either person and your individual personal preferences. So she says this and in my head immediately I'm like, I think this is the relationship talking. Like, I think she actually, she's onto something here. Maybe our relationship does need more play and fun and relax. And so in that moment, I don't know what happened to me. But like the higher version of myself just said, yeah, okay, let's cancel therapy for three months and see what happens.

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We had eight a fantastic three months. And you know, what I started to learn was like how to let things roll off my back more easily where normally it might be hard. It was like I learned all these things about what it would mean if we actually didn't process. We weren't sweeping things under the rug. Like we would bring little things up, but the big things just didn't seem to like nothing seemed to matter as much.

Yeah. And the interesting thing is like, I think when you, when things are good, like in the beginning of the relationship, I said I want to do therapy more out of a fear because I was like, I don't want to go two years into this relationship, repeat for the sixth time now a relationship going two years deep. The first year is great. The second year starts to have this struggle with trying to get back to how it was in the beginning. I was the only one that would suggest Therapy. I don't know any woman that's met a man that said, like, I want to go to therapy. So I was always the one in the women I was. Whatever reason, the women I chose never wanted to go to therapy. And I was like, what is that? What am I attracting? You know? And it's like, I would tell them every woman would beg for their guy to go to therapy. They're like, you don't want to. And side note, anyways. And so it was more out of a fear. I was like, I'm only getting this relationship if we start in therapy. And I always wanted to do it, but it was more like, I want to know quickly, like, if we're going to work or not. Like, I want to know in the first six months, Not, I don't want to wait two years. And I was just kind of at that phase of my life. I was like, unless you're willing to do this. And even her just committing to it, I was like, I could have just let it go because I'm like, oh, at least I know you're into growth, right? We did it for about a year and a half anyways, and it really helped us get alignment and agreements and values in place. And that's where we're able to actually fast forward disagreements. So we learned about each other in therapy and the wounds that each one had. And so when there were disagreements, we were able to process them with a middle person, right? With someone that could guide us in our own personal healing journeys. And then together with agreements. So it created this sense of shared individual safety and then relationship safety that we were willing to invest in agreements early on. And when there were breakdowns, which there were. How do we process and navigate this conflict where we feel both safe and the relationship feels safe? So it took about a year and a half of, like, doing that consistently where I felt great. And then maybe we would go once every, like, whatever, three or six months, and it still felt great. And in the last year, it's funny you say this, because she said something yesterday or two days ago to me. She was like, I feel like we should do a session together. And I actually said, no, I don't think we need a session. I was like, we haven't done a session together in, like, a year. Probably maybe a year and a half. And I was like, like, I don't think we need a session. I think we're exactly where we need to be. And I have processed so much on my own, and I'm like, I am willing to Sit with you at any moment and talk about anything. And we can go over anything and we can talk about it. We have the tools to do this as well. If we are in a breakdown together, then I think we should. But life's been amazing. We haven't had the greatest year. And I don't want you to fall back into fear of needing therapy to feel good. We can feel safe having whatever conversation we need. And so if you want to schedule time for us to talk and do something together, I'm here whenever you want. She was like, okay. And I go, and if you want to do something solo on your own with, great, go do it. But I'm like, I don't feel like I need more, you know, it's like, I need just more play, you know, And. And so it's interesting that your wife said the same thing. And it's like, like. But I was like, I'm here to talk at any moment about any fear concern you have, because, again, she's a few weeks away from having birth. And so I know there's a lot of emotions coming up. And I'm like, I'm here any moment to talk. I'm here to create a safe space. I'm here to engage in any fear or conversation you want to have, because I know you're going to have concerns about the future. I understand. I can't fully understand, but I can appreciate what you're experiencing, and I'm here for you. And let's talk right now, later, tomorrow. I'm here. As much as you want, I'm here. But I don't want to go schedule and go somewhere to do that. Let's just do it. And I think it's knowing how to create that space as well for me, which has been helpful because that's also creating a boundary for yourself of, like, I'm doing an interview with you today. This is therapy. You know what I mean? It's like I'm doing four of these a week. In these conversations, it can be emotionally draining if you're processing constantly and imagining these things.

Absolutely.

If you're doing it all the time.

Absolutely. It's exhausting. It's exhausting. And as a change partner, and as a change partner myself, it's also a way to control your environment. This is the kind of shadow side. There's, of course, the benefit of being the change partner, but part of the shadow side of it is if I continue to need change in this relationship, what I'm not actually addressing is what might not be working If I don't control the situation, there's a phase in relationship that I think is important to note that it's called disillusionment. And every relationship will go through it.

What is disillusionment in a relationship?

It's this time. And I think, and I say this now because oftentimes the change partner wants to keep changing. Wants to keep changing because they don't actually. Because accepting where they are is.

Is.

It can actually be too painful for some people. It's, you realize, like the relationship, like you're saying it doesn't need as much work as you might think it does for other people, though, it's actually sitting with, wait a second. This is not what I signed up for. And if I keep committing to change and the work, if I keep going into the work, I don't actually have to sit with this isn't it? Or I don't have to sit with accepting exactly where we are. Disillusionment is the process of moving from hope that things will be different to acceptance that things are the way they.

Are and it may not change.

That's exactly right.

And do I want to be in this relationship? Is this the envision as is. Do I want to. Is this the Disney fairyland romantic story that I envisioned living myself in?

Well, let's hope that it's not, because those don't exist.

Exactly.

Those don't exist. But if there is a way that you're holding on to hope that your partner is going to show up differently. Differently. Do something differently. And you've, you've done, you've asked the questions, you've gone to therapy, and they're. They're not doing it. And you have to accept there is a pro. First you grieve.

Oh, yeah, you're first you lost that.

This is, this is not where I thought we'd be. This is not the relationship I thought, oh, it is. It is so tough.

And can I stay in this relationship now that I've invested years of my life and if I get out of this, I have to redate someone and then what if that doesn't work out?

Thing the process of moving from hope to disillusionment, which is there is. I actually have to release hope in order to see what's truly here. Grieve that and then understand if I am okay staying in this relationship as it is today, if nothing changed or reckon with the fact that this isn't the thing that I signed up for, and then do whatever work you need to do about that, which is Often boundary setting and taking care of yourself. And if you can, if you take care of yourself over, you'll, you'll. It brings me back to something you were talking about where you were saying you did this three month period with this girlfriend of just continuing to show up the way that was in your work. You're focused on your work over and over again. As long as that's what you're doing. As long as you're sort of minding your own business and your work and you're setting boundaries and you're doing it more lovingly and you're doing, you're being open and you're, you're bringing the things that are yours to bring to the table and you're using, using eye language and you're taking responsibility and you're doing all, you're doing your part.

Yes.

And nothing changes. Then you're out of the power struggle because the power struggle is the thing that keeps you in the hope that something will, will be different.

And then you have a choice to make.

That's exactly right.

Do I accept this life or do I move on?

Exactly.

Can I accept the relationship and the person I've chosen to be with if nothing's going to change? Maybe there's a little bit in the future, but I can only hope. But there's not a guarantee.

But every relationship goes through disillusionment at one point or another. Maybe it happens year one, maybe it happens year ten. Maybe, but. And it's confusing because it feels like the end, because it is, it is the end of a chapter. My supervisor, Esther Perel talks about this, how she's been in multiple marriages, but all to the same person. Yeah, I think that's a beautiful thought. And I have friends who. That's the same for them as well. Like they have been in relationship long enough that they have gone through multiple iterations of the relationship, but they have had to let the previous version of their relationship die.

I would say I'm in that phase right now in terms of like, you know, before Martha, you know, before we were married, it was a version of a relationship. It was like we're traveling everywhere and doing these things and the thing, you know, after marriage she got pregnant very quickly. So we're still traveling and doing certain things, but it's preparing for a different future with children in mind and we have twins on the way. So it's preparing for, you know, a eight, well really an eight month process of pregnancy, but then probably six to a year long process of a not, you know, To a full recovery, I guess, of like body shifting and changing for two years essentially from, you know, growing human life to then recovering from that. And then your whole identity shifts from the moment you get pregnant to the moment you have kids. A different identity to getting back into day to day life as a mom and as a parent. Like in a relationship, your identity is shifting constantly. Right. And you have to grieve a past.

Absolutely.

Even if you're okay with it not being there anymore and you're excited about the future, you still have to let go of it and grieve it and choose to accept what you have and be okay with it. Maybe you're not okay with it, but you have to choose if you want to make the most out of your life. Otherwise you're going to struggle.

Absolutely. And then you stay in that for as long as you grip, you will stay in that contraction. And I mean, I just hear about this all the time with people. They won't change. What do I do? They keep doing this. What do I do? They, they, they, they, they. And that makes sense because they're on the other side of your pain. But as long as we're looking over there, and this is my work too, this is for so many of us, as long as we're putting our hands in the honey pot over there, we're not actually able to see what's needed to be done over here in our world. And this is, as much as I hate to say it, it's the only thing we can control. We have no control over another human being. And the more that we try to control somebody, we learn very quickly. Nobody likes to be controlled. No.

Unless they're like a weak person that.

Just says, or you're doing BDSM in the bedroom. In that case, it's agreed upon anyway.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But no one likes to be forced to change from someone else, you know, and that's why I was like, the only time I'm gonna get angry, upset, or frustrated is if you try to change me. You know, it's like, because that was what most of my life was in relationships. Not being accepted for who I was.

And for the person who. And for the person who, who wants their partner to change. It's the part of them that. So I just learned this over and over again. The part of them that so desperately wants to be met and seen and understood. That you changing could allow that feeling for them, that if you were just a little more. Just like a dash more of this and a dash less of this.

Then it'd be perfect.

Then I would feel X. I would feel happy, settled, safe, all of those things. But it's an illusion.

It's an illusion.

It's an illusion.

You have to create peace and safety within you no matter what someone else is doing outside of you.

You have to Again hard thing to.

Do was probably the hardest thing for me in my 20s and my early 30s and mid-30s actually until I really just like I was like I had to reflect on all my relationships. I was like man, I keep attracting based on a psychological wound. It's not about any person I've been with. It's about me and my responsibility and choosing and then lacking the courage to really speak my boundaries and stick to boundaries or choosing the courage to say gosh you're a fascinating person, I want the best for you but we can't be together. And being okay with the reaction of that. That because I was never okay when someone was like I can't believe you don't want to be with me. Like I couldn't deal. It was like I never wanted to.

Upset anyone or learn that you will survive even if you don't feel okay.

Exactly. Yeah.

That there's going to be tension.

Of course.

No matter. No matter what.

I like that I lack that courage and the ability to emotionally regulate when someone was like freaking out.

It's so hard to do when we haven't learned that. That's the thing we need to practice.

It was everything thing we there.

I'm just going to say it again. There is no getting around it. It is. The practice is facing that tension.

So I'm curious then maybe this is too personal but you. How many like long term male relationships were you in?

Oh boy.

Like more than. More than six months. What would you say? Like like a handful? 5, 10, 5 to 7?

5 to 7.

Something like that. Since you were like 18, not like 13 year old. Like.

Yeah, yeah. I mean I had young five to seven but yeah. Yeah like five to seven. Yeah.

Where over six months. Maybe a couple years or something.

Something.

You're engaged once.

Yep.

Do you feel like you've healed from those relationships with men?

I don't know my last relationship which wasn't the engagement there was. I entered into that on really probably the least confident I had ever been because I was just. Just leaving. It was you know a year or so after the engagement and you were, you were feeling. I was kind of wounded, weaker. I didn't.

And I insecure a little bit.

Yeah. Like I had. I just had lost A lot of my confidence coming out of that.

It's. Yeah, it's normal. I mean, anyone would.

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And I, and you got into another relationship.

Yeah.

When you were at a lower point.

Yes. And I chose someone who was very strong willed and I, I bent to them over and over and over again. And the truth, that's not like, I'm not, not proud to admit this. My wife has been the first person, and it might be because she's a woman that I've been able to stand up in a way that I had never been able to. I mean, I was a pleaser through and through. I appeased. I was so scared of causing tension and conflict. I was very terrified of someone getting mad at me. And my wife is the first person who I've really been able to. I mean, we've done the deepest work I've ever done relationally in this relationship. And part of, part, I, I have to wonder if part of that is because she's a woman and so I feel less threat. And I don't, I don't know the answer to that. I don't actually know the answer to that. And I don't know if I'll. Hopefully I'll not find out because I'm this, she's my, you know, I hope we're together forever, but I, I don't feel anger towards men. Like, I don't. I, I, some of my male patients are, are my favorite patient. So it's not like I have a, I just, I.

You're also not an intimate relationship with them where that wound 100%.

That's. You're totally right. You're totally right.

You're distanced and you're able to give advice.

Yeah.

It's a safe environment, but I don't.

Know that I would be able to work or maybe because I'm in this relationship that I will have had enough practice that if I ever needed, I could really face the, you know, whatever tension I might need to with a male. But I don't have that practice right now because I'm practicing with a woman.

Common. Yeah.

And so interesting. Yeah. And I haven't. I haven't thought actually a lot about that, so I don't have a great answer.

Where do you think your life would be in the future if you allowed yourself to reflect and see if you still needed healing and allowed yourself to heal from all the. The male relationship energy that you've experienced or the, you know, the lack of healthy relationship with men that you've experienced? Where do you think your relationship with yourself would be in the future if you're able to do that, your relationship with your wife would be and your relationship with the world would be.

It's hard for me to know how much of my relationship dynamic with Emmy is because she's a woman and because she sort of represents both to me. Like she has a lot of masculinity in her, and so I can project.

Maleness onto her, but I guess irrelevant of her. If you were able to, you know, maybe. Maybe don't need healing from him, but if you. If it comes to you in the future that you do and you're able to dive in deeper and integrate the healing with the past relationships, maybe you'll never be able to fully do that because you're not going to get in a relationship with a man again. But if you're able to do it in a way that allowed you to fully heal from those previous relationships, where do you think you would be personally for the future? Irrelevant of your partner?

I mean, it's tricky to say irrelevant for my partner because I think the truth is I am healing those parts. I think that's kind of what we were talking about before, which is the parts of me that I brought that have been unhealed, irrespective of gender are showing up here. Right. My trust. Perfect examples. I did not have the same trust issues before my fiance. For my ex fiance, I was a pretty, maybe even naively trusting person.

Before that, you trusted people.

That was my blanket.

Say it. I believe it.

That was sort of blanket. And I think I grew out of. Of being naive into more discernment from that. So that's one benefit that came out of it. But I have watched my nervous System react to things with Emmy that they would have never reacted to.

Like what?

Like one that has honestly really surprised me at the beginning of our relationship was she's way more extroverted. I can play an extrovert on tv, but I do.

Well, you like your space?

I like. Yeah, yeah. And she wants to stay at the party until the very end. I'm like, 10 o' clock. Feels good. Saturday night, let's go. You know, and, and, and at the beginning, it was really, really hard for me when she would stay at a party later and I would go home, I would room and I would be like, is she. Is something gonna happen? And it wasn't. It was. It was the fear that she was going to come home and tell me something that was gonna knock me. Because that's what happened.

What, like someone hit on me or someone did this?

No, like she, like she made out with somebody and was so sorry about it and she would never do it again, but she just did. And like, something like that, that I think because my ex fiance like that, that knocked me. I mean, I was. I couldn't work after. Like, it really rocked me in a way that nothing had rocked me before that relationally. And I think I was so scared of being rocked like that again. Like that something could just so quickly like that come out of the blue and hit me and take me down. That. It was like my fear. You're afraid of that?

Yeah.

And it took me a while. It took me. Honestly, it took over and over again, her coming home later and me and her not saying anything about doing anything, breaking a boundary or breaking an agreement.

Do you guys have an open relationship?

No.

No, no, no. But you're just like, if she cheated on me, it would break my life.

It would. Yeah, she broke a boundary. Or, or really what it was is if she. The. The question that I have had since that relationship is when I get triggered, I say, I. I ask myself, what am I missing? So I get vigilant, I get sort of hyper. Vigilant, super hyper. So I'm. I'm sort of like scanning my environment for what am I missing? So if I feel off about something, then I. I start to be like, okay, what am I missing now? What I have learned? That is. And I learned this again from a friend of mine, Annie Lala, who I mentioned earlier. I know Annie, she's fantastic. And she talks about this and I think it's really important, which is the difference between signal and story. And the signal is whatever feels off in my nervous system. And I'm like, something's not quite right. This doesn't feel congruent. Something's not quite right here. Where I get myself into trouble, where we all get ourselves into trouble. If you're anything like me is when you believe the story about what that signal is telling you or you're making it up.

This happened. This is happening.

Totally. So. So if I make up a story that the reason I'm getting this signal is because Emmy's out there making out with someone. Right.

Like, that you're making up a story.

That I'm making up a story. And. And then I get myself all in a tizzy. And. But. But here's what might be happening. She might be having fun with someone, and maybe she. She's like, has energy with somebody, and I can feel that. Like, maybe that's something. Or maybe it's just that she's out late and she's having fun, and I feel fomo. It doesn't actually matter what it is. So I say now, trust the signal, not the story. And when you bring the signal to your partner, hey, I feel crazy even saying this, and I feel kind of embarrassed. Like, this is how I would bring things. I feel embarrassed saying this, by the way. This is not how I brought things to her at the beginning.

I had to learn this. You got to her. Like, were you out having fun? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I would be like, I'm embarrassed to say this, but can you just tell me if there was anything up with you and this person? I feel, like, kind of weird about it. And she would be like, like, no, but I can see what you mean. Like, we have, you know, we're really friendly with each other.

Yeah. We have fun, and we have fun. Like, we have each other.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I can be like, okay, I knew I was feeling something. And because she's not telling. She's not telling me, I'm completely wrong, I can act that part of me actually softens, and I can find the truth in where my signal was, but that the story was total bs.

Yeah.

And that's been really important. So I don't have a great answer for where would I be. I think the truth is I am. I have. I've been. I put myself in therapy when I was in junior high. Like, I have been on the healing path my whole life and I imagine will be. It's a journey forever.

Even if I. You know, even if I feel more peaceful and more whole, I'm going to continue to have to heal for the Rest of my life.

Yeah.

It doesn't mean, like, I've got it all figured out. Yeah. I just feel safe within myself at this season of life, and I want to continue that healing journey, and I think that's an important part for us. Again, we go back to the emotional regulation training. It is a constant training, and I'm certain that when my two daughters come out, there's gonna have to be whole new things that come out of me that I'm like, I need to learn how to regulate in a different way. Like, I might think I have, like, something figured out in the last couple years where I feel good right now, but try me.

Exhausted. They're both crying at the same time. You just got home from a long day of work.

100%. And I know the. I lack patience when I don't sleep, I just lack patience. I'm an entrepreneur, you know, it's like, I want it now. Let's go.

Yeah.

So I know, like, my. My weaknesses, and I know there's probably other weaknesses I don't know that'll come out. And it's going to be a constant journey of healing and learning tools and learning how to use those tools to regulate my nervous system and a new season of life with a new structure. And I'm. I'm grateful for me personally, I'm grateful that. That I went on this journey, I guess, 12 years ago to be able to have some baseline now before having kids, because if I would have had kids 20 years ago, I would have been a mess. There's just. I don't. I didn't have the tools, I'd have been a mess.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know what I mean? And so it's. It's a journey.

Well, this is part of, you know, part of the work that I do is MDMA assisted couples therapy research. And I do it with Columbia University. Columbia University and Maps and Rick Doblin and. And a few other people in clinics. And part of what we're doing and what MDMA does and why I think it's such an interesting compound to research is because it helps you regulate. And so for people who really struggle regulating, who have had trauma and so their nervous system is consistently in fight, flight, Freeze. Fawn. Right. MDMA can give you an imprint of what it's like to actually feel regulated with a partner. I think this is what, to me, MDMA is sort of like the cutting edge way the couples couples therapy field is going. It's why I'm so involved in the research, is because what it's when our amygdala is so fired up. And for many of us who come from trauma, this is our base state is just triggered and dysregulated. Like, that's a lot of people walking around. And something very, very little will set them off. Off. MDMA gives this imprint because it's kind of dumping, you know, on a very basic level, serotonin and oxytocin and dopamine. And it's dumping these chemicals that allow you to feel good and calm so you can be in a tense conversation with a partner and not feel that same tension that you feel, that same dysregulation you feel all the time. So it gives you an imprint of what it's actually like to be regulated in a difficult conversation. Now, you can't be on MDMA forever, so you're going to have to learn the tools. But for some of us, we've never even had the chance to understand what it's like. And so anyhow, I wanted to mention that because I think it's a.

That's interesting.

So kind of the wave of the future in couples work.

I'm curious. You triggered something in me that I remember from my past where I used to. I don't know if I was extremely jealous or just like, like, average male jealousy when I was in previous, like, you know, teenager 20s and relationships where I'd feel like, oh, my girlfriend's going out and, like, she's at a club or she's like, with some older guys at some, like, meetup or whatever it might be, and having that jealousy or insecurity or lack of, like, oh, is she not telling me something? That's something that I had for a long time, and I don't know if I had it more or less than other guys, but just, I would say normal jealousy, right? It's like normal jealousy of. Of an immature, weak person, I guess that doesn't have.

Which, by the way, a lot of people won't say they're jealous. They just think they're angry. Continue.

Yeah, I mean. I mean, I. I didn't. I didn't. I think back then I wouldn't say I was jealous, but I was just.

Like, angry or annoyed, frustrated or defensive, whatever it was.

I can admit my weakness of being jealous for most of my life. And then something triggered in me when I was in my. How old was I? Probably 34, maybe. Was. Maybe I was 35. I must have been 33, 34. It's almost like one day it just switched off of me. I Don't know how to explain it where I was jealous and then I wasn't. And I was in a relationship. And part of me, I think part of me knew the relationship I was in wasn't going to work. And I'd been trying for a couple years. We were trying to make it work and going back and forth and on and off and this whole thing. And it was almost like I knew I wasn't jealous anymore in this relationship. I didn't have jealousy. And for whatever reason, like, maybe it's because I knew the relationship was going to work out, but I was trying and I was trying to make it work, but I didn't want to fail. But I also knew in my mind it wasn't going to work. So I stopped, like, caring about if there was a guy hanging out or something, flirting with her. I was just like, I don't care. I'm not jealous anymore anymore. Then the next relationship I was in, I was with someone who had a lot of attention from men. Let's just say that around the world, lots celebrities, you know, billionaire, like, lots of men, just like this person. And I still had zero jealousy. And she didn't like it. She didn't like that. I never was jealous. And I haven't had jealousy since then. Right? It's probably been, I don't know, eight years or something. And again, I'm with an amazing woman who's, like, admired by lots of men now and who's done kissing scenes or whatever. And I don't get jealous. Is there something wrong with me by not having jealousy anymore? And what's your thoughts on it? When people have jealousy in a relationship, what is that signaling to the other person when they are jealous of who they are or what they're doing?

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Yeah.

But I don't think that's the full story. What I often actual. The more that I see this, the more that I'm tracking this and working with couples, and the more that I understand jealousy or the lack of jealousy as part your work, but part your partner's energy.

I believe that, too.

And if your partner actually has clean. Clean, energetic boundaries is how I might say it, then there's nothing in you that's pointing to anything leaky. Like you're not. You're not getting hooked by a leak.

Yes.

And so I think we give a lot of credit to people who aren't jealous as they're so confident. I think we give less credit to the partner of the person who's not jealous that they're actually doing a good job.

The other partner I had did not do a good job at that.

Oh, really?

Oh, they were like.

But you said you didn't really wanted to. You didn't want to be in that.

Relationship after that one. One after the previous one before my marriage. So two relationships ago that you did.

Want to be in a relationship with her?

Yes. I mean, I was in a relationship with her. I wasn't trying.

And she didn't do a good job of holding her boundaries.

It was like the worst job of, like, energetic boundaries with men.

And you weren't. And you weren't.

I still wasn't jealous.

Okay.

She was also on Only fans and you.

And you.

And I didn't have any jealousy.

And you knew you wanted to be with her, or are you.

I wanted to be with her. I was trying to make it work because in the first year. Year it felt really good. The second year, it switched into power struggle. Right.

And which was the year where you were like, I'm not jealous. Both years.

The whole time. The whole time, yeah. Because then she started playing. She started playing time. She started kind of playing games of like, oh, this guy reached out to me and I gave him my number. Go. That's weird. Why would you. Why not just say no? She's like, I was just trying to be nice or this and that. I'd be like, okay, all right, whatever. Like, it. For whatever reason you saw. I think it was more like, like, if this doesn't work out, I know I'm going to be okay. If you're trying to. If you Want to be with someone else, Go be with someone else. Just do it. Like, we don't have to be together. So it was more of like, I don't, like, I'm going to know either way. Like, if you're going to be with someone, I'm going to find out. If you're going to cheat on me, I'm going to find out. If you're texting someone, I'm going to eventually find out. So I'm not worried, I'm not putting my energy on worrying if this is happening. It's going to come out eventually. And it just didn't, it's not that it didn't bother me, but I wasn't being jealous.

What was the bothering then?

I wasn't, I mean, we weren't in alignment on our relationship. We were in conflict a lot. We were in conflict. We were in a line. We didn't have values or vision a lot.

So you had a reaction to it? It just wasn't jealousy?

Yeah, I wasn't jealous. I was like frustrated. Like, we were in conflict, but it wasn't jealousy. No.

Yeah.

I, I, and with Martha as well, again, she's like a big movie star, famous, and I just never have any jealousy.

How are her energetic?

She's really great. She doesn't allow men into her life. She doesn't, Nothing will creep in. Yeah, she is an energetic force field.

Yeah. So she's doing part of the work.

100%.

Yeah.

But I still don't have, you know, I was in when she was like, when we were first dating and she was like, whatever. I went on a date with another guy because we weren't like, exclusive or whatever. She was like, oh, I saw a guy last night. Or this. I still didn't have jealousy.

Yeah, listen, I think, okay, like, if.

This does, if that's what you want, then cool.

And if that really is your stance that I'm gonna find out eventually. If I, if I, if I find out, I find out I'm gonna be okay on my own. It doesn't, it's, it's okay.

It doesn't mean I'm not gonna like it. I may not like it. You know, it's like, it may be sad if we didn't work out, but.

I may have a reaction to it.

Yeah, of course. But I was just, I just haven't had it for a long time.

Yeah, I mean, listen, I, I, it feels amazing. It's, it's, it's very, I don't feel.

I don't feel totally, I Don't feel like it's draining my soul anymore.

It was a very hard one for me. And it's not hard anymore. Yeah. I mean I can. I. It shows up sometimes, but not nearly like it used to. And it. You're right. Like, it's a very draining, time consuming. Yes.

And your nervous system is on a high alert all the time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean it is a hyper vigilance. It's like.

It is.

Yeah, yeah. And that may. Listen, I don't think this is a one size fits all answer either. I think like part of it could have been that you had. You started develop more confidence and you. Part of it is. I truly believe. And this is the part I just feel like we talk less about is the other person and what they're doing.

She does great.

But in a. But in a relationship. And part of it, like I. There's a part of me that is hearing, I don't know if this is true. So I can. I'll just check this with you. But it feels like a little bit like maybe a part of you in that other relationship was like a little bit apathetic to like, you're either gonna love me for who I am or not. And like if you don't, it's like there's like a. I was also in a flavor of.

Yeah. And I was also trying to like, just accept like, okay, like, you can do what you want. It's not gonna bother me as long as you're not cheating on me. Like, if guys are hitting on you, then this is where it is. You know, guys were hitting on you before. As long as you're not entertaining it, then I don't have an issue because I can't control if some guy hits on you. Yeah. You have to create the block.

But you said that she wasn't great at creating the blocks. That's. I think the thing.

She wasn't. Or more. She was more like, you know, out. I mean. Yeah. I mean it's. It still didn't bother me for some reason because I think I was just like, if this doesn't work out, I know I'm safe with me. Yeah, I know I'll be okay. I know I'll be in a good relationship in the future. I know like, I have options. I'm not going to be alone forever. Like, which is probably what I used to feel like. Like I'm going to be alone. So I need to make sure.

And I can't be alone.

Yeah. And I think that was probably more my Fear. And I think as I got into like my early 30s and started. The healing journey is also. After the healing journey began, I was like, I'm gonna be okay. If this doesn't work out, I will. Maybe it's not. I'm not gonna enjoy it. Yeah. But I will be okay in the future.

That I think is a. It's a huge piece.

Yeah.

That if. You know in your heart of hearts that no matter what happens, you're gonna be okay. It will. You'll be better able to set boundaries.

That's what I've been able to do.

Yes.

Yeah, that's what I'm gonna do. I'm less like. Like, no, this is my boundary. And if that doesn't work, then we don't need to be together. Like, if we're not. It's not like I'm saying that non stop, but it's like we need to create agreements on alignment. And if there's something that's really crossing a boundary, I'm going to tell you now that's a deal breaker for you. Then maybe we can come to an agreement somehow. But it's like, I don't know, we just can't do this anymore.

But for somebody who doesn't actually believe that they're going to be okay on their own, that their world literally will end or truly, some people have gotten in. Into. Gotten themselves into situations where they are literally in danger if they leave.

Of course. Or they're unreliant or they're children with this person or they're financially restricted. There's so many reasons, all these things.

Why people stay when they know they should leave.

Yeah, of course.

And when you have a hook like any of those.

Oh, yes.

Off. It's really hard to set boundaries and to. And to. To. To speak the things that need to be spoken even kindly because.

Because you're going to feel like your.

Safety is literally on the line.

That's true. That's a whole nother. That's a whole nother episode. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like navigating that. It's like, I know where's the best place for us to support you. Follow you, connect with you online.

You can go to my website, bayavoche.com, b a y A V O C E. And I'm a voce on Instagram is mostly where I hang out, but I have a couple of resources. I have a free repair PDF that you can get which has a ton of scripts for all sorts of conflicts. So that's a good one. And I also have another worksheet on the change and effort mismatch. So for people who are in that kind of change and accept dance, if they want some support there, that's also free. And then I'll be launching a group for repair.

Awesome. Yeah. Caroline on my team, she downloaded the scripts and she goes, these are amazing. So make sure you guys download the scripts on the website for sure. And your content is great online, so make sure people follow you on Instagram and everywhere else. So, bae, I want to ask two final questions before I ask you. I want to acknowledge you for a moment for the journey you've been on. It sounds like you've been on a heck of a journey of relationships. And we're still, all of us are on the journey. It's not like you've arrived or I've arrived or something. We're both on the journey. But I want to acknowledge you for putting your wisdom out there because you have gone through a lot of challenges in conflict resolution and intimacy in relationships. And I acknowledge you for diving deeper in researching it for your own personal healing journey, but then also sharing that wisdom with the world. And I think it's allowing a lot of people to find more peace, more tools, more resources and support. So they don't think they're crazy or they don't think it's all the, you know, they're the only ones dealing with this, that there are a lot of people struggling in relationships and you're providing these tools to simplify. And I'm assuming these are tools you wish you had 20 years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago. And so I acknowledge you for using your pain for part of your purpose now, to serve the younger version of yourself that needed this and hopefully healing that version of you and helping other people heal as well. It's been really cool to watch your stuff and getting to know you now for the second time. We just met recently, but this was a question I ask everyone. It's called the Three Truths. So imagine, hypothetically, you live, you get to live for the rest of your life as long as you want, but it's the last day on earth for you, as many years away as you want it to be. And you get to live the exact life you want, all the blessings and beautiful journey and creations you get to make and relationships you have. But at the end of the last day, you can only leave behind three truths. And everything that you've ever created has to go with you to the next place or we don't have access to Your content or your videos or books or anything you ever create is gone. What would those three truths, three lessons that you've learned in life that you would leave behind?

Bending over backwards in relationship is not love. Contorting and pretzeling is not the thing that will get you what you hope. The love that you hope that's one another is. Friendship is one of the most important investments you'll ever make. There's one of my favorite quotes, and I don't know who to attribute it to. I forgot. But it's something along the lines of the tragedy of getting older is there's less time to make old friends. And I have friends from when I was one. I have friends from when I was five. I have a group of friends from elementary and junior high and high school, and we still are deeply connected. They bring me back to myself in a way that is. It's so powerful. So those, you know, friendships are. And just to say as a caveat, got. I think we're going to start hearing a lot more about friendship breakups and about how to navigate conflict in friendships. I think it's starting.

Boundaries and friendships. Yeah.

Huge. And it's. And it's really just the same thing. But. But I don't think we. We. I don't think we are prepared for friendship breakups in the way that we're, you know, we.

Oh, man. This is a whole another episode. I started doing this the last two years and went on. I went with as many people as I could where I was like, I need to create boundaries in a conscious way. And I realized, okay, this. Some people would be stronger together. Some people was like, oh, we're just not meant for each other in this season of Life. And that's okay. You know, it's like, we can move on. You don't have to try to hold on to something.

Yeah.

That once was where we're at right now, but this is a whole other episode.

I know, I know, I know. And I'm with you. I've had a similar process in a been.

Yeah, it's intense.

Intense.

And yes, that's number two.

And then that's number two. Okay. And number three is don't let anybody tell you not to go to sleep. Sleep a lot. Sleep a lot.

Get your rest.

Get your rest because you need it. And you're a way better version of yourself than you do.

That's some good advice. What's the.

What's the. What's that line that everyone said, you can sleep when you die? Like, I think that is sleep. Total bs. I do everything better when I have slept and it's the way that I have access to my creativity and love and warmth and it's. It's the way that I access my essence and I don't have full access to my essence when I am not rested.

That's good. Good wisdom. Final question. What's your definition of greatness?

Being willing to look in the mirror at what yours, what is yours to own? And then admitting that to the people around you who've been hurt by the way you may have shown up, even if it was unintentional, because it probably was. And then being kind and gentle with yourself in that process.

Wow. That was beautiful. Thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me.

Appreciate you. Wow. That's a good one. I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy and if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life. But you want to make it easier, you want to make make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to make moneyeasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening. Then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support, support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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