Heart-to-Heart Conversations: Zane Lowe's Approach to Unveiling Artists' Personal Stories EP 1452

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True art is when the inner voice and the outer voice meet in harmony. That's what true art is. And I don't just mean singing, I mean any form of expression. Writing. You know, when you write a piece of literature that's just like so mind blowing and moving, that's that meeting that, that or that, and it just, it flows.

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Well, first of all, that as much as we hold artists and people we admire who inspire us through expression or performance of some capacity, that it's a very human experience for them. You know, we put people on our posters on our wall, wear them on our chest, sing this in music, we sing their lyrics back at them at concerts. We are invested. And I think as I've moved from being only a fan to being a fan with privileges like this, doing this kind of work, that it's a very human experience, the creation of the art. and I'm quite into that idea of blurring the line between, you know, deity and humanity.

Right, because you meet all these big artists who are kind of godlike to a lot of their fans.

Yeah, and I think we take it really far as people because we look, we're always looking for something to be inspired by, something to give us a purpose, you know, or a reason to get up or a reason to work harder or do something with more emotion or be more open or even just to heal a heart. Sometimes it It breaks a heart, sometimes it heals a heart, whatever. And these are very, in a lot of cases, through the lens of art, it's magical, it's very spiritual experience. And so I always try to preserve the magic of the music, but recognize the human that made it. So that's definitely one. And I think that a knock on from that is that, you know, I used to go into a lot of conversations with artists with a, we were talking about this before you were rolling with this kind of idea that I needed to know everything before I sat down. And I think it's better to not think about stuff as much as feel things. So I really come into this kind of experience now with a feeling rather than a list of questions or a roadmap. I try to take it out of the brain and put it back in the heart.

Absolutely.

As corny as that sounds, it's sort of really where I sit. And it just means that I'm thinking, and feeling with a real sort of sense of appreciation for the art and appreciation for the person rather than just the text or the information that's been presented to me. So I listen a lot more than I used to.

You didn't used to in the first, what, decade or something?

I was told, you know, outright, I did some work with somebody because I felt like I was getting stuck in a rut. So I went and spoke to someone, who was probably not unlike yourself, you know, was, was, had a lot of really good insight and helps people get over humps, whether it's athletes or performers or anyone who has to perform into something, it could be business, whatever. They kind of give you a sort of advice, the sense of where you might be kind of ignoring the obvious next steps to grow. And she said to me, you know, you don't, you don't listen enough. And I, that was really hard for me to hear because I wasn't listening enough. Yeah, right.

It's like right there in front of me.

Like, I immediately want to block it up. and she said, you know, a lot of times in conversation, people present you with something really interesting that's there to go deeper on and you either scoop past it or you try to protect them from overexposing themselves. Really. You just need to let people be people. And so that was another thing which was really valuable for me was to really just acknowledge the conversation and be present enough to hear what someone is saying and have the confidence that I had the ability to to move in that direction with little to no preparation, that the preparation was in me because I felt where I was. Does that make sense?

Why do you think you weren't listening that well at the time?

Oh, fear. Just fear of being called out, not having the right question, not knowing where to go. Silence terrified me in conversation with cameras and microphones. Yeah, because I'd be like, wow, it looks like I'm unprepared. It was all very ego driven. I think looking back on it, need to look good. Yeah, I had it all around the wrong way. I was like, to me, it was almost like a performance. It's not a performance, you know? I only realized that now. I think at the time I was like, no, I'm just, I'm doing the work, you know, I'm as into this conversation as, as anyone can be. And then I think looking back on it, I was just, just kind of focused on how I was coming across or all the wrong things. And it's like, dude, just be a, be a, a sponge and be a conduit, you know?

So what year is this when you kind of started to reflect on it and start to get that support or coaching or feedback? Well, I always felt like I did good work.

I wouldn't have continued to create more opportunities or be given more opportunities unless I didn't do the good work. And I never watched my stuff back, so I was low on the edge.

I never do either, right? Yeah.

Yeah, it's not like a, that's not an ego thing for me. I don't go, yeah, amazing question.

Like, I just-- I'm the man with that question.

You know, I mean, I'm just, I love the moment and then I leave it to someone else to figure out, right? And so I was never worried about not doing great work up to a point. It's just that I felt like I was uninspired in my line of questioning. The conversations weren't inspiring me. I wasn't inspiring the subjects or the people in front of me. Because you were still interviewing the most.

Inspiring artists at the time. It's all still happening at the time.

Yeah, I can tell you exactly when it was. Well, what happened? It was when we launched Apple Music and I was trying to help build this radio model for the streaming era. help the streaming model get started and on the steepest learning curve of my professional life and trying to deal with relocating a family to LA. There's just so much going on that the thing that got me there in the first place was the thing I was least focused on. And so eventually that thing kicked back up and people were like, well, let's do the interview things. Let's get you back in that mic, on that mic. And I just wasn't prepared for it. And that's when I was like, look, I need to find at least an hour a week where I can not deal with all the other things going on and just find out what this is saying to me. And it may be that I don't have it, I'm not good at it or I don't want to do it anymore. But once, you know, this person Sarah unlocked that aspect of it, it meant that I could actually manage all these other priorities and do this at the same time because I just had to simplify my process. and just come in with a sense of trying to feel what the artist is saying and feel where they are in their life and just be as human about it as possible.

It's interesting you say this. I have a similar mindset around conversations and interviews, and I think it is more of an art than anything. And I'll have a bunch of questions here that are pre-prepared that I'll glance at, or if I need to go and look at, I will, but I almost never look at the questions. It's always what's on the heart and mind of the guest as you come in. The feeling we have. You know, right away we gave each other a hug and you're like, that was a nice embrace. I go, you want another one? Let's do it. And we're talking about New Zealand and other things. And for me, it's always about starting with a question, which I feel like is on their heart, and then allowing it to evolve.

Yeah, I don't even, here's the thing, right? I never even know what my first question is going to be anymore. Like I try to get to a place where it's as immediate as possible. Like whatever the last person thinks somebody said or how they want walked in the room or how they reacted to this or how they drank their drink or whatever. I'm just searching for where we can.

Begin right here, right now. I saw that with the Harry Styles interview you did. I think it was about a year ago or within the last year.

I think the first question was, why'd you paint your nails? Yeah, because he was sitting there and.

I noticed it two seconds before we started.

You're like, let's start with this. I like the color. Would you get that? Yeah, let's start with this. Why'd you do this? Yeah. And so for me, it's just, you know this, dude. This started when we met.

So it's the pre-show is the show. Yeah.

And it's good. It's good. If we're analyzing a process and there are people weirdly enough that are interested in what this side of things is. We always close my mind. If someone comes up to me and goes, I really love your interviews. I don't know what to do with that. Because I'm like, I'm not the most, like, I'm just getting you the info. Right. That's all I'm trying to do. Right. So I take it now and I appreciate it, and I've done it long enough to not be about that. I'm just grateful for the acknowledgment. But the truth is, like, you want to know your subject to the point where it's respectful. I can't interview someone unless I hear the music or I watch the film or read the book to some degree or know what the subject's about. But then that just has to sit there and then I just, if I've got the knowledge in my head and I figure, like, I understand what the human has achieved, then I just want to come at it from a place of feeling. It's really about the feeling. Like, if I can't feel, if I'm not in a place where I'm open enough to feel what you're trying to.

Achieve with this music right now, then I'm not prepared to sit down and talk to you about it. Yeah. You may not be interested enough or excited enough to dive into it if you don't know that, have that feeling.

Yeah, I mean, I get emotional in these conversations too, because I know when we talk about that song what it's about, because it made me feel that way and maybe you're bringing up things to me, which some people may think is a bit indulgent, but I love a two-way conversation. I don't, I'm not a Q&A guy. I don't, I'm not like a, thank you. Next question. My next question is like, if I can't have it so that we're and opening up together, at least. And I try to get the line right and sometimes I overstep it and I overshare a bit too much and my editors are a bit generous with my take on things. But, man, I've been doing this a long time. Like, I did that junket thing. It's not fun.

Yeah, you got to be able to share a two-way street. I'm curious about how, you know, a kid from New Zealand, was able to eventually go to London and then come to Apple Music and be the go-to guy for the biggest musicians in the world to essentially come to first before they do any other interviews. How does that even happen? Why you, what makes you and your story unique that has allowed this to occur? Because it didn't happen by accident. It's not like someone just plucked you out because they're like, oh, this guy could be good. Yeah. There was a path that you followed, whether it was deliberate or undeliberate and you just kept showing up. But how did that happen? I mean, you know, it's like, it's still happening.

So it's hard to know when you're still kind of, like, enjoying the experience and you're still in your life. Maybe there'll be a time when you sort of look back and reflect on it a little bit. I, you know, I. Because it's been, what, eight years at Apple Music now? Yeah.

Yeah.

We're coming up nine. And then before that, it was, like, nearly 13 at the BBC, and before that it was MTV, and then there was. so that. So, yeah, I mean, I could put it in a nutshell, and it could seem like a really quick, short journey from Auckland to here, but there's so many moments of just luck and realizing there's a moment that you should cap, that you should take, like, live in that moment and make the most of it and. And work. I mean, it's true. You know, the, you know, the hours and hours you spend doing what you love, it's not work, but it's still effort, and the effort pays off, so. you know, that equation is well documented and you know this. I mean, you deal in greatness, you've spoken to great people. I'm sure that, you know, everyone kind of lives by the same principles to some degree, which is find something that you love, be solely focused on it to the point where it's obsessive. Take your opportunities graciously and with real gratitude. work, be good to people, right? Learn to say no. Make sure that the yes is the right yes. All these things are kind of the roadmap's there for people to use. Now, what's unique for everybody is, you know, how you put those pieces together, how it shapes your picture. And the only thing I know that's been a constant in my life is that I really am just a real fan, like... Of the music, of the artist.

I'm just a fan.

Really?

Like, the fan.

Like, everyone's a fan.

You are the super fan.

In my mind, I am a massive fan of music. I'm not gonna put myself above anybody else, but I really love it. And it really moves me, and it really generates an enormous amount of energy in me. Like, if energy is tangible, it comes out of me when music is playing that I love. Like, emotion. Like, I was driving here listening to this playlist I made yesterday for Queens, from a Queens, the Stone Age, from their back catalog, but it's not hits. Like, there's not one single in there. It's all just album songs that are just driving music, right? It's just like Mexicola and turning on the screw and just like someone's in the wolf and just all this stuff that's just so heavy. And it's like when I'm driving listening to that, like I'm in the band.

Really?

Yeah, it's like it's very, very sort of tangible for me. And so I think if you believe in the laws of attraction, which I certainly do, if you love something that much and when you listen to it, you feel like you're inside it or a part of it, then you maybe eventually become a part of the process.

Wow.

I mean, I've seen it over and over again. I mean, you know, it was, I want to get it right. I'm sure it was Janelle Monae who told me a story about walking into a room to play a show that Stevie Wonder was also playing, and he was sound checking her song when she walked in. And we talked about the law of attraction from being a young person, a fan of Stevie, to that moment of realizing that Stevie was playing her song. This happens all the time all over the world in lots of different ways, right? How else do you end up playing football on the same team as your heroes? Just how it goes, right? Inspiration breeds this kind of attraction. So she had this really cool take on it, which was that if someone inspires you enough that they end up altering the course of your life in their direction, then it goes without saying that at some point you will come face to face with that person. And what may happen in the case of Stevie and Janelle is that that person is then reflecting your version of them upon themselves, right? So Stevie hears in Janelle's music what Stevie knows about himself. Mm, man.

I get chills thinking about that.

Why he's drawn to that song to play it, because it's a mirror image in many respects. And that's beautiful. That's the beauty of connection. That's the beauty of why we, as young people, find people that make us want to go and train harder and learn instruments and make beats for 12 hours a day or learn to rap or whatever.

Who was the first inspiration for you or the first couple in music when you were kind of growing up and you heard something like, oh, I want to learn this instrument, or I want to get into this, or I want to be the DJ because of this person.

Yeah, I wanted to be in all kinds of bands. I mean, I literally would create fantasy worlds when I would be at home as a young kid. I'd set up these drum kits made of old thick phone books, and I'd turn the edges of the cardboard off, and that would be my hi-hat with chopsticks, and I'd make these crazy drum kits, and I'd just play Led Zeppelin for two hours. pretend I was into pesh mode. Like, I mean, the imagination was my refuge because my reality was, at best, pretty quiet. Auckland, 80s.

Chill. Chill. Not much going on.

Not much going on, sports and school. And then I also came from this kind of pretty difficult divorce background in terms of, like, my parents had a rough end to their relationship. at a time when divorce wasn't common. And so, at an age when I was very, I was open to that trauma. I was in the moment of trying to establish my identity and it was a really classic sort of divorce story which has gone on hundreds of millions of times, who knows, billions of times around the world where something happens in your life and it attaches itself to you. And so my way through that was music. I would just be in the band.

Your own band, like in your imagination. Yeah, in their band.

Like, you know, I am in the Smiths.

Sure.

Like, you know...

But that was your escape.

Yeah, it was my escape. It was my way of just imagining what life would be like if I was in that band and how wonderful it would be. And that's really where the idea of wanting to be more than just a music listener. And I guess I began this kind of journey of wanting to get as close to the music as I can.

This is fascinating because there's so many great musicians and artists out there, and I feel like you know this way better than I do, but I feel like a lot of the music is created from a place of yearning to want something, yearning for love or something they wanted or escaping pain. Do you, think it's possible for great artists to produce and create amazing music that is connected around the world without some type of trauma or lack?

Well, I think the question is, does anyone go through life without some kind of trauma? I mean, I think that... I've never met anyone who could literally sit there and go, Man, my life was perfect from start to finish. you know, I think that the desire to express yourself through the arts often comes from not feeling like you have a sort of natural pathway to explaining those things or figuring those things out. And often it's just a way to communicate and to express yourself in ways that conventional communication just doesn't work for you or the environment isn't there for you. So, yeah, I think that a lot of the arts, a lot of people who make art or express themselves, and it's across the board, not just in music. I mean, I know a few people who work in canvas, work in sculpting, and work in more sort of tactile arts. It's absolutely their way of seeing the world.

Why do you think it's easier to create art and express yourself than it is to sit across someone, open your heart, be vulnerable, and have a conversation eye to eye?

You know that old saying?

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I mean, I can only speak from my experience. I didn't have the tools. I think you have to know yourself really well to be able to express yourself really well.

Scary.

And I think that the fear kicks in because you're like, well, what if it doesn't come out the way I mean it? Or what if I don't really understand what I'm trying to achieve here? I mean, I'm still figuring out. I mean, that's the beauty of life, right? We're all still figuring it out. And I think we're so results obsessed that we forget that actually, you know, it's the learning that as we established here, this is about learning from each other, and I'm not headed. I'm here to learn from you. So, you know, it's like, you know, I think we have to really be kinder to ourselves on that level. I think very quickly at a young age, it's like competitive sports. This is all healthy, by the way, but competitive sports, education, grades, results, results, results, results. And I think maybe part of where we're going in the future, hopefully, is that we can actually start to tandem that with this idea of what the inner voice is saying, because true art is when the inner voice and the outer voice meet in harmony. That's what true art is. And I don't just mean singing, I mean any form of expression. Writing. You know, when you write a piece of literature that's just like so mind-blowing and moving, that's that meeting that or that or that, and it just, it flows. Yeah. And that's when people talk about the magic is, that's the intangible. That's the magic place where great art gets created is, is when we, you know, somehow for some reason, the stuff that gets out of the way gets switched off. You know, and I think when we're young and we don't know how to do that, not even when we're young, when we don't know how to do that, or we ignore it, it's never off. And if it's not off, how do you express yourself in other means? Sure. Right. How do you open the lanes for the art to flow, for the music, the inspiration and things to flow?

It's all just channels. Right. And when you were going through this kind of period of time with the divorce and your parents, that's when you start to lean into the music and lean into this world.

I was always moved by it and I was always motivated by it, but I think every kid is. I think, you know, rhythm is a very natural place for us to land is when we're figuring out what the world is, you know. It's a pretty good place to start, you know. Yeah. Dancing, things like that, it's a natural form of expression and joy. So I think if it takes hold, it's because it's serving a purpose. It became a purpose for me. It became a purpose to get up. It became a purpose to leave the house and walk to school, put my headphones on. My intention that day was not to hurry to school. My intention was to be able to listen to music on the way to school. Wow. You were there through school and listen to music on the way home. Sure. What years was it?

I don't know.

In the 80s, I mean, you know, probably like, you know, whenever I got my first Walkman, you know, probably 10, 11 years old or something like that. I'm just figuring out like, what do I need? in order to just go somewhere that's mine, just my place. I still get an enormous amount of emotional satisfaction out of putting headphones on a plane or on a walk or something because I know I'm the only one having that experience. It's entirely me. And You know that thing sometimes when you listen to music and it's so immersive that in your head everyone can hear what you hear. And then every now and then just for fun you'll pause and you'll hear the birds or the cars or everyone's just going about their life.

Talking in your head.

Like I love that because there's something very comforting about knowing that life is just moving on and right. It's a really good reminder that everyone's just doing the best they can and getting on with life. Right. And, you know, music just helps me do that. It's just, it continues to be this amazing place that allows me to feel things that are intangible. I don't know how to, I don't know how to access those things sometimes without the help of music.

Yeah. Was there ever an aha moment for you when you were playing, you know, growing up or when you started interviewing people, where you were like, I cannot believe I'm playing with or interviewing this individual that I've been a fan of for so long.

Oh, there was so many. I mean, from a really early age, because when I was working in New Zealand, you know, there wasn't a huge amount of outlet for artists to kind of do press or whatever, but eventually they'd kind of all come through. So, yeah, I mean, before I even went to London, I had this kind of show tape. of, like, you know, I mean, I talked about it within the other day. I mean, we're on our 20th plus interview now, nearly 30, almost 30 years. I've been talking to Billy Corgan. And I remember in 1994 sitting on a grassy bank in Auckland.

Yeah.

The big, the first ever big day out where the band were playing just after Siamese Dream came out. That came out. They were on, like, 4 30 in the afternoon, and I'll never forget it. You know, like, I I knew that album, but I didn't really, but I sort of, I kind of fell in love with him before I really got the band. And that was a big thing for me. Like, I interviewed him and just thought, this guy is something about this guy. It's just really got some crazy vibe about him or about him. And then I heard the music and I can make the connection between the two. And then that album has been my companion my whole life. So. that was crucial. I mean, being at Radio 1 and getting that first Jay-Z conversation was a game changer.

What was that like?

It just changed everything for me.

What year was that?

Well, this actually was the second. Well, the first one happened around blueprint 3, but the one that really was the game changer was the second or third one, which was around Magna Carta Holy Grail at Abbey Road. And just. Yeah, I. It was the. I reckon he was just so. generous and thoughtful and unafraid of the questions and willing to go there and just like, he'd made the decision to do it. And so he came in without any armor on.

He didn't have some PR responses and...

Yeah, it fell away immediately. It felt immediately like we could have talked for hours and hours and hours and hours. And we did. We talked for like two hours. And I remember after that day, like I was like, okay, yeah, you can do this. Like you can... Right.

He was probably the biggest in the world at the time, right?

And you can still, and you can go into the room with him him. And he just made me feel in that moment like it was a worthwhile experience. And, you know, it's different for you because you've built this amazing experience where people want to come into this room with you. You've established through really thoughtful, great conversation and very smart kind of sort of complimentary branding and everything else. So it's like, oh, I want to go on that. Like, I was excited to be asked, you know? Yeah. I knew it would be a great use of time for the, for me, at least. But most people start, at least back in the day before podcasts were really the Avenue, you really came in on everybody else's sort of priority list and what, you know, you're a tool. Like, you've got to promote this record, you've got to, you know. ask these questions, do this job. It's so I was very, I never felt like I really had much of a role to play beyond kind of doing my job. And the Jay-Z one was a big one for me where I felt like, you know what? Beyond what the label needs, what the BBC needs, what the audience expects, just that experience of me and this person I admire with, like, to such a degree, it's a huge degree. That was enough. It made me feel like you can do this. You can be of value to people in this environment.

Did you ever have doubts before that, or did you have insecurities when these artists would come in, like, okay, I've got to deliver, and what if they don't like me?

And not just that, man. I mean, I think a lot of that was what drove some of my techniques, was the fear that I had to prove myself, right? I had to leave and make an impression. All these things, it's just, dude, we just spend so much time focused on what if we fail? that you forget that actually the reason you're there in the first place is because something inside of you believes that you can be of value, that you can succeed in whatever capacity others think is success. And so we forget that and we bury that deep down within. And that's why execution is so hard. That's why people make and don't execute. That's true. But that's, it sounds like that gave you a big confidence boost.

It gave you more belief in yourself after that Jay-Z interview. Yeah, it's huge.

And then everything kind of kicked off from there. And it was like Kanye and then Eminem all within a sort of six-month period. And then- Really? like that was sort of the moment when a chain of events sort of unfolded that ended up, you know, positioning me at Apple and moving to Los Angeles. Yeah.

Was that, how much earlier was that before you moved to LA?

It's like 2012, 2013. So if you think about it- Two, three years. Yeah, but if you think about it in terms of the conversations began in 2014, it really was only about a year.

Wow.

'Cause then we did, I did Rick Rubin, who'd never done anything really on camera, and hadn't done an interview, at least to my knowledge, in a long time. And now obviously Rick has built a beautiful, wonderful empire of conversations and books. And I mean, it's, he just makes the world better by sharing his knowledge. But at the time, I just didn't, it just didn't seem to be what.

He was focused on. So we had this cool Shangri-La moment.

And that was big.

And so it just, so that a couple of your period, there's a lot of big kind of powerful conversations you got to have with people that really didn't open up.

Yeah.

What do you think allowed you to be able to, to create those iconic conversations in that short period of time at, and allowed you to book them and for them to want to open up vulnerably and share? Well, Jay-Z is what allowed it. I mean, he's the one who said.

Yes in the first place, and he's the one who encouraged us to put it on YouTube, which I had no presence on YouTube. In fact, I was like, wow, YouTube's for, like, short form comedy. And he was like, nah, we should, should put, like, this hour-long interview up on YouTube. see if people like it. And he really encouraged that. So we did that and then people watched it and then... And kind of.

Gave you the credibility, the stamp of approval.

Yeah, he just was like, I'm gonna do one or maybe two of these things. I want everyone to see it. So put it where the audience is, right? Valuable lesson. Put it where the audience is, right? This is about visibility. I want people to know my music's out. I want people to know what it's about, right? I've chosen you to have one of these rare conversations. Let's put it everywhere. I'm like, of course. Makes total sense. But at the time, I'm being like super overly curatorial and the whole experience out of fear. cause I'm like, what if I put my stuff on YouTube and people don't care? Right. It's all that stuff. And he just cut through it. It was like, no one has time for that. Put it up. So he put it up. It happened. And then, I mean, there's luck involved, there's timing involved. But the truth is, you know, when I spoke to Kanye West around the Yeezus project, which was a quite a significant conversation at the time where he really sort of did a lot of talking to camera, and really addressed primarily the fashion industry and kind of outlined what he was going to do.

Right.

At the time, you know, we had been putting breadcrumbs around the place for a while. Like, I'd, I'd spent the last couple of years trying to kind of get to him and see if he didn't want to talk. Yeah. Again, he had spoken for two or three years at that time. It was a bit of a media blackout for him. He was just making music and didn't, wasn't redoing many interviews, and so I was just.

But you were putting feelers out, sending it to his team or people he knew and say, hey, I'd love to have him on.

We still do that. I mean, I made a call yesterday to try to get something teed up that won't happen for another year.

Really? All the time. But now you're running up Apple Music.

Isn't it easier to get these artists who want to promote a new album? Not the point, though. So the point isn't to wait for them to want to promote the album. The point is to get the conversation that is of most value. Amen. Right? The point is to have the conversation with someone that is really impactful. And you can have that when there's someone to promote. That's where it's our job to get behind the record or behind the project and get inside the human experience. But, you know, there's someone I wanted to talk to my entire life.

You've been out of conversation with.

Who's an older artist who is like a ghost cat, like Walter Mitty, like waiting for the cat to come out of the, you know. And I'm, I'm three, four conversations in several years into trying to make that happen. That's part of it. It's the fun part of it. I know. A lot of it's timing.

There's been guests I've been trying to get for 10 years that I have been on top of the publicist, that I'm- you-'re not- I have five relationships with their closest friends. Like, I'm in the mix somehow, but.

They it just hasn't worked time-wise. Bill's the same. You know, Bill Simmons is a good friend of mine. He's the same.

We talk about it.

He's like, man, you know, it's been years to get that one. It's like, it's just- it's how it goes.

Right, he's massive. Yeah.

By the way, it's whack to rest on your laurels and anything you've achieved is done.

Yeah, forever worth it. You gotta keep building it.

Done, done, it belongs, it exists, it's there. Neil Young said something really cool to me when I talked to him and I had this awesome conversation with him and Rick Rubin. And Neil Young said to me, I tried to ask him about harvest and he was like, yeah, you know, I'll give you a minute about harvest, but anything beyond that, you're gonna have to ask that guy. And I'm like, who's that guy? He's like, that guy who made that album, he's still back there?

He's gonna go find him. And I'm like, but how do I find him?

He's like, I don't know, go back there. Somewhere back there. He's like, there's been thousands of me. I don't know what that guy thinks about harvest anymore. I know what I think, and I'll.

Give you a soundbite on it, but I'm thinking about this today, right now. Yeah, that's cool. That's cool. I'm curious about, this is fascinating. I love hearing this from someone who also does interviews, because I don't have a lot of people that do similar things as me on here, which is fascinating. This might get you in a little trouble. But, and I know every artist you've had on has been inspiring in their own way. Oh, it's the list.

It's the who's the most?

It's not the who's the most. It's the, because everyone will ask me, like, who's your favorite guest?

And it's, it's actually I am, obviously. Exactly. Right.

I tell you not because of me, because I'm the one today. I'm here right now.

Yeah.

And it's not a favorite guest question because I don't think that's fair.

Yeah.

But the three artists that really spoke to you, and maybe in an emotional way, I guess they all do, obviously, but maybe it's something that was on your heart and mind that season of your life where they said something that really spoke to you. Maybe it connected to you with your family or your career or something from your past or where they said something or their energy or their presence that day was really memorable for you. And of course, every artist you've had on is amazing and talented and Great, but this top three artists, moments, or memories in those interviews, if you could share.

I mean, I can't do a top three because, I mean, I've done, I've been doing it, like you say, 30 years, and I mean, I wouldn't have, I don't have the fuel to get me back that far.

To remember that much.

I'd run out around 2012. Sure. You know what I mean? I've got to go back to 1997.

It's a lot, but just a few moments.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, look, you know, I mean, dude, I mean, I, I, I had, I, I had to dry my eyes the other day. I was having this really deep conversation with, with someone in it, and, and they talked about bottoming out and with Josh and Queens and what it is to find the courage to carry on. And that really, that hit me. Right. But I think in terms of sort of, I mean, my Tom York, the last Tom York conversation I had is, was one of the very few times I've ever watched anything I've done. been a part of back in full. Because I'd waited my whole life as a fan to have that kind of unobstructed, pure conversation with him. We'd had good conversations in the past and very awkward ones in the 90s and the 2000s when Radiohead were just holding on. they're just holding on, right? Because the whole world was like, what is radio here thinking? And they're like, we're just holding on. Just trying to make the best art we can, you know, interviews are not our friend, you know? But that was a really, for me, it was a, it was wrapped. I had very little sleep. I had no sleep. I had the worst jet lag ever. Some, some reason I found myself in a total towel spin. I'd flown in the day before from LA to London. It's not a good jet lag. I, I had stayed up till, like, seven in the morning just spinning out about this conversation. I got about two hours sleep, woke up. It was a morning conversation, which was good. It wasn't good because I had a tailwind of like, you just gotta do it. Had a couple of very strong cups of coffee, had another one at the pub, which was they just closed down for us. He sat down, he was just an amazing form.

That's great.

Very generous with me. And so that to me was like a moment, and other artists have talked to me about that moment. That was a moment for me when it was emotional for me because I just had been waiting to have just this really genuine It's all on the table. We can talk about it, conversation with him. And he was really generous with me and very enthusiastic to be there.

It was beautiful.

It was beautiful. And I was so scared and it turned out to be the opposite. That was beautiful. I think probably when Hayley Williams and I had our first real proper deep conversation about therapy and about the work that she was doing at the time and may still be, I mean, you never stopped doing the work. And I was getting back into my therapy and everything else. There was a, we had some really great conversations that were very moving. And I think it's where I kind of had to learn to let artists be emotional. My job was always to, I felt always to steer them away from that. And I just- that's the good stuff is though. Yeah, I know, I know. But I was scared that it was like, I felt like I was emotionally mugging people, you know what I mean? By letting them get emotional in my space. And actually it's just not up to me to make that decision at all. It's not nothing to do with me. so that was a really, she was, that was a great moment. And, you know, anytime that, anytime that sort of the parental influence in particular right now comes up is pretty sort of deep for me because My relationship with my mother in particular was changing. She has dementia, so I don't have the same relationship I have with her. And whatever answers I needed on why our relationship was amazing, but also challenging at times, are gone. I'm not going to get any more answers, right? So whatever I got to go on now, I got to go on. But she's still here and it's awesome. And so I'm grateful for every minute I spend with her and the times I get to kind of have these little moments of cognitive awareness and we laugh a lot. there's tears and it's a brilliant human experience for all of the sadness attached to that really awful disease. Whenever I get into conversations and the parental thing comes up, you know, I gotta take a sharp breath on that and just stay composed. 'Cause the thing is, when you get to a place when you're trying to get as inside the human experience as possible, right? Whether it's through music or you cover the, such a broad spectrum of people's interests and things that affect the world. It's hard for it to not sometimes tap into something you're going through. And so it's just knowing when you, you want to allow yourself to go there. And I mean, you must feel this too.

Oh, man. I mean, even you just sharing that story about your, your mom, how long has that been happening for?

The symptoms came on about four years ago, maybe we started to notice, but in 2019 it became quite evident. And then we were still traveling around, I was taking her on road trips, and I flew home to New Zealand one night to take her to U2, because she couldn't really go on her own. And so I wanted to give her, because that was her favorite band, I wanted to give her that experience. She had a great night. And then quarantine kicked in, and that was that. And the next time I saw her, everything had changed, because I think it's pretty well established that quarantine and isolation was not good for those who were.

Dealing with cognitive issues.

Isolation.

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It's tricky.

You need the stimulation, you know?

Yeah, I mean, I have a story that's close to the heart for me. My father actually got in a car accident in New Zealand and had a severe brain trauma. And they had to cut the car open. They helicoptered him to a hospital in Christ Church. Yeah. And for 17 years was alive, but not emotionally mentally here. So it wasn't dementia, but it was a brain trauma where every time I would see him, it's like, where'd you.

Go to school again?

He could speak and have a conversation, but he didn't have memory. And he emotionally and mentally wasn't the same human being. There were moments of that humor and some of the personality, but it was almost like he was a different human being. So this was close to home for me. He passed away a little over a year ago. And for 17 years, I did my best It was almost like, again, he was alive but emotionally gone, mentally gone. And so I wasn't able to fully grieve the loss of my father as I knew him because he was still physically here. And it's been a journey of grieving and almost feeling closer to him now that he's physically not here because I don't have that struggle and barrier anymore. and so I, you know, it's, I.

Mean, it's close to my heart with this. I can relate to that and in my own way, it's about investment, right? It's the time and the energy you put into whatever's changing, whatever's going on around you that allows you to try to get as much out of it as possible.

Absolutely, man.

And, you know, my brother and I often talk about the times we spend with mum, even though sometimes it's really hard to kind feel that we can even be present for her. That's challenging. But even when we just leave and we go have a beer, we just toast and say, Man, she's bringing us together. She's still giving us reasons to stay together and to come together and to talk and to process and to work things through. And so I, yeah, that's a really, really, that's a hard one.

And it's tricky, man.

I'm sorry that he moved on.

It was tricky and it was challenging because it was, for the first four or five years, it was like I thought he was going to get better and it just didn't really happen. I mean, maybe moments of it, but he was never able to get back to a fraction of who he was, his personality and his energy and his, he was, you know, intellectual. He just didn't have it anymore because of the brain trauma.

So I- Can I ask you a question on that?

Yeah.

So if you if you sort of take a look at the overall experience of that, that era of your relationship with your father from, from the moment that he was who you knew him to be versus who he became. What did you learn about life in its most kind of, oh, man, micro micro potent way.

The challenge is I had to learn how to hold like two things in my hands at the same time, like extreme sadness, pain and agony, but also like the beauty that comes from that. And there's no way that I would be where I'm at without that accident happening because in a lot of ways I didn't have the emotional courage because my father was able to support me emotionally, mentally, sometimes financially. I was in college, right? So it's not like I had a career and I was doing my thing. He was kind of like, okay, if things don't work out, I can go work with my dad, you know what I mean? And he'll make sure that I'm taken care of and I'll get paid and I have a job. So when he was not able to support me in any way, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, financially, It was like, oh, I need to become something greater. I need to figure out life. And I don't have him to, I wouldn't say baby me, but to make sure that I'm taken care of. And so as tragic, and there were so many other tragic things around it, it was just all tragic. I don't think there was anything good about this situation. But who I became. And I. I just cared deeply about human beings and the human condition and human psychology. And it's one of the reasons why I started this show was because I was just fascinated by humans, and I knew I needed a lot to learn myself. And so I wanted to find the greatest mentors that I could, because I didn't have my Mentor anymore to learn from, to soak it in. And I was doing this for four or five years before I started this show. and I was getting so much value from these conversations that I was like, I need to record these and just put them out there. So there was beauty for me from what I had to overcome and learn and who I became in this journey of that accident. But it was also extreme sadness and loss and tragedy.

Did you ever hear or see Colbert, the two-minute piece where he talks about loving life and all, loving all of it. Yeah, we're appreciating life.

It gets emotional, I think.

Yeah. So that would be the third example of that for me was when I sat with Fred again and he played me his reworked version of that speech with just some really beautiful drones that, you know, inspired him and, you know, he's a prodigy of Eno and just built these beautiful, very delicate drones and played that speech. And that was, that was saying what you're saying, which is the idea of, like, you know, we're always one step behind change, but it's what do you do with it? Yeah. And how do you apply it? And it's, man, we are so fragile as a species.

Any moment, man. This was a moment happened at one second. He got in a car accident. It was a moment. And the rest of his life and everyone in his life changed.

Yeah.

One of the greatest pieces of advice I got was from another Mentor, a friend of mine. and Jason, three, two and a half years ago, he said, Hey, you know, I know you're going through this challenge with your dad, and I didn't know if he was gonna live. We didn't think he was gonna survive 17 years ago, right? I thought he was in a coma for three months in Christchurch. We didn't know he woke up eventually. And I didn't know every year he had so many health problems after that. I didn't know if he was gonna survive or pass every year, but he just kept chucking along for 17 years. And I go, man, he's a stubborn son of a gun, you know? and my mentor, Jason, one of my friends, he said, but he was in Ohio, my dad, and I'm in LA. And I'd go back once a year, maybe twice, to go visit him, right? But it was just hard. It was just hard to see him and just process the same conversation every time. Yeah, that's a real tough spot.

It's a father not knowing really.

Well, so you have this kind of.

Built-In, not to drop you, you have this built-in kind of sense of responsibility and ultimately guilt of not being more present, but at the same time, it's like, why would consistently put yourself through this pain, right?

Dad in this constant pain, which I did for the first four or five years, seeing constantly, and it's just like, this is. And he said, listen, you should go see your father more frequently. Like, make it a. Make it a point to go there. If you're going once a year, go there three, four times a year. Just do it. Like, even if he doesn't appreciate it, I'm telling you, you will appreciate it in the future. And if he can't express it, he still appreciates. 'cause he never called me after this accident. He never acted like he cared and he didn't wanna be around his kids anymore, wherein before that, he wanted to be around us all the time. So it was just a big transformation, big change. And so I made a commitment to do that. And this was during the pandemic when I did this actually, when it was less convenient to travel and less convenient to go. And I did it and I asked him every question I could. And I filmed as many things, I almost interviewed him and as much as I could and asked him every question. And every once in a while, there was actually a little nugget in there. Most of it was kind of, you know, all over the place. But every once in a while, I was like a little nugget in there, and I have those memories. And then he passed the next year. And so I was really grateful that I invested that time, that I made it the effort to go there, not knowing that it would be that it would be his time.

Because it's scary, and I think we, you know, it is. We are quite simple. We're as complex as we are as a species. We're quite simple. pain equals bad, right? So regardless of the incentive and the emotional need to go do that and the knowledge that it's the right thing to do, it's painful for them.

It is, man.

It's painful. So there must be a reason why I can't go this week, right?

It's always a risk, it's a risk.

It'S a risk, it's a risk. And it's total, I think it's very normal and I think getting over that pain barrier is really important because then you get into a place where you face these things down, you invest in the reality, and being invested in your reality no matter what it is ultimately is the closest we can get to being ready for the entire unknown. Exactly, man. Yeah. I've got a few final questions for you. This has been powerful.

I want to make sure I'm mindful of your time here. It's okay, Kevin. You got therapy after this.

This is kind of therapy for me anyway.

I got therapy tonight for me too.

I love it.

The journey, the healing journey, is a journey. We've never arrived, you know? And I think there's different seasons of life where we've got to unpack and take on new things. Before I ask you the final few questions, I'm curious about maybe an artist or two that really surprised you. Maybe you had a conception about them based on their music, based on what you'd seen in the press before you've interviewed them. based on their persona and personal brand and kind of character type that they portrayed to the masses. But when you interviewed them, there was a different side of them that really opened you up or thought, wow, this is really a unique individual in a way that I wasn't even thinking about. Is there one or two that you.

Can- yeah, there's a group. I mean, I would call it my sort of 3.0 or 4.0 kind of era of working in the pop music space, really, because before that, I was. I always came from the corner of the room. Like, I knew what music I liked, and I didn't really want to compromise on that. So I knew it was a slower journey, and I knew that it was gonna. It wasn't gonna be any shortcut to big numbers or big audiences. It was like, you know, if you want to be the first person to play the hives on the radio, you know, you're not going to be. No one's going to kick your door down for a mainstream Saturday night, you know? NBC show, you know what I mean? It's like, no, he's the hives guy. He's happy in his corner, right? He's doing his thing. He's a new music person. And it worked really well for me. And I had an amazing time breaking what a lot of people sort of misguidedly called, including myself at times, credible music. Like music is all credible. But at the time, we were all caught up in like daytime for pop, evening time for cool, whatever, whatever, whatever. Then I came to Apple and I realized, like, if I'm going to listen more and I'm going to be, and I, and I'm going to change the way that I approach these conversations. I need to find people who are doing things I don't really know about. I don't really know what drives the pot mentality. I don't really know who Justin Bieber is. I don't really know what kind of life Selena Gomez has actually lived. I don't really. I've never really interviewed Taylor, who's not really. I mean, she is, but Taylor's, as we know, is the songwriter of a generation. But it's like, at the time, she was making pop albums. And so it's like, how do I fit into that world? And so when I started having those conversations, it became clear to me and very surprising that with a bit of listening and some genuine curiosity and probably a bit of naivety as to what goes into the pop world, We unlocked these kind of stories and these conversations that really surprised me how transparent modern pop artists have become. Really? Yeah. Because in my time, when I was coming up in the 20s and 30s or whatever, trying to find my voice, pop was just so, hi, where are the Backstreet Boys? Right? It's like, hey, what's been the hottest thing on tour? I didn't know, man. Kevin ate my hot dog last night. That was pretty tough going, you know, MTV News, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was like the headlines, but you knew there was something stuff going on, you knew that people didn't like each other, you knew there was drama, people getting ripped off. I mean, it's not like, I mean, pop music has been one of the most exploited sort of things, right? From an artistic point of view, it's very exploited. I mean, music, any artist is, you know, hip-hop, country music, dance music, whatever, the artists have a tough time. So you knew that didn't stop at pop. You knew there was drama in pop, but you could never get to it. It's like it was always just like, and cut. We're good here, you know?

Find a light and... Yeah, sell the.

Record, sell the record, sell the dream. And what was really interesting to me was when I started having conversations with these artists, just how honest and inspiring in conversation they were. I mean, I've found my times talking to Selena Gomez to be some of the most fascinating and honest, amazing conversations I've had in my career. Really? Yeah.

Why is that? 'Cause she was so vulnerable and open and real.

She's a no human. She's a no human. And if you get her on the day, she knows where the line is, but she doesn't mind walking up to it, you know? And I always thought pop music was way behind the line. You know, you want to go have those conversations, go talk to your favorite rock star or rapper or sing a songwriter, folk star or whatever, you know? I never thought pop stars would show up like that. And. And that's really where it's gone. I mean, sitting down. and having that conversation with Justin Bieber where he was that vulnerable, that open, that honest, let the tears flow, let the voice crack, let the body language tell you everything that you needed to know. That was very surprising to me. It was not what I was expecting when I showed up to the studio that day. And I found the whole thing to be incredibly brave and honest and, I think, inspiring for other stars who perhaps felt like they had to put them, present them best and protect the rest. It's okay. You can just let it all go if it's the right time and the right place and you want to. You know, Kelly Clarkson says something to me today in our conversation where she talked about being less of the yes, but sort of being more willing to just walk away from things and, and not try to defend things all the time. And this, in terms of relationships, I can't remember the context, but she was like, it was exhausting. I remember she just said, it's exhausting. It's exhausting to continually have to sort.

She started things together. She started saying no and creating boundaries.

Yeah, and just saying, it's easier for me just to say, I don't wanna do that, or I'm gonna move on, or it's just, well, here's my honest truth. It's exhausting to not. And that's what I saw in Justin. I just saw at the time, you can watch it. I'm not saying anything you can't see. He just looked exhausted and he just looked like he wanted to just stop, you know, with the whole, he just wanted to be like, here's how I feel today, bro. I may feel different tomorrow, but today I'm tired. I don't know where I'm, I don't know what's going on. You know, I'm wearing it heavy. And so that has been a very inspiring thing as someone who's curious about what goes into music and art, the true stories, the humanity of it, to see, you know, so many artists who have so much to lose by being honest. Hundreds of millions of followers and constant attention, constant eyeballs trained on them. from a young age to actually be able to say, this is bull, I'm upset, or that really hurt me, or this is my truth. And I think that in many respects, and this is the thing, this is my little headline from this conversation, I think that this generation of people who were raised in the public eye and have gone on to develop careers in pop music from a young age are ultimately paving the way for pop stars to be able to walk the line with more knowledge, with a better understanding, just a stronger sense of self. You know, and now you have like the Billy Arches of this world who are just all around amazing.

Yeah, she's amazing.

And just, you know, seem to be able to position things and be honest and be their true selves. And it took that generation, sorry to go on, but took that generation of pop stars to come out and say, you Let's break that spell a bit.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's beautiful to watch this stuff. And you do a great job again on your show, the Zane Lowe Show. Make sure you guys check it out on YouTube, everywhere else on Apple as well. And I love the way you get these artists who seem untouchable to open up in such a beautiful, vulnerable, loving, compassionate way. And so you're the master of it. and you do an amazing job of creating a safe environment and also knowing your stuff. So that's what decades of putting in the consistent effort and work and research will do for you. So big congrats to you. And I want everyone to go check out these interviews because they're so inspiring.

I appreciate that.

I want to acknowledge Usain for your emotional generosity, for being here, for showing vulnerably loving, opening your heart, and just being a real dude. I wouldn't expect anything different from a Kiwi. So I appreciate you for how you show up and for being an inspiration to so many people around the world. The way you curate conversations and how you show up as a real human being in these talks, I really acknowledge you and appreciate your skills, your generosity, and your humanity. Wow.

Well, thank you very much.

Of course, man.

I appreciate the opportunity. I appreciate, you know, you coming into the human experience with a sense of openness and wanting to know about what makes us tick.

Absolutely, man. It's a nonstop fascination for me.

Right.

Yeah, I can learn from everyone.

Right.

Something.

Yeah.

This question, the last two questions, this one is called the three truths. Okay. So it's a hypothetical question. Imagine you get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day. get to accomplish everything you want to accomplish, your dreams all continue to come true in the future, all the beautiful things. But for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your content with you on this last day. So you've done all the interviews, content, this conversation for whatever reason, it's gone. It's gone to the next place. So no one left behind in this world has access to your information anymore, your content. But you get to leave behind three final lessons, three truths that are true for you, that you would share with the world. And that's all we have to kind of remember you by. What would be those three truths for you?

That our memories are our single most important and valuable experience, counting that all this fades, right? everything fades and eventually your memories will too, but I'm a big... That's the only thing I truly like to collect. I have no problem cancelling something or spending some money on something or whatever, if we're going to get a great memory out of it. To accept and acknowledge that it's, you know, that in order to love people in your life in a way that is rewarding to yourself, that it's totally valid to love yourself. And that often we project what love is, but we don't really love who we are. And it took me a long time in my life to actually be able to say to myself, like, I like you, dude. Like, I love myself. And it changed every one of my relationships for the better. It made me a better guide for our kids, my wife and myself and our children, and it allowed me to just to listen to my own voice and to not want to turn it off or not want to ignore it. So I'm a big believer in finding the time and the space to not just sort of learn to love other people and to put your identity through that, but to actually be unafraid to love yourself.

I want to follow up with that really quick. When did you realize that you didn't fully love yourself.

Oh, from a young age, I realized pretty early on that something inside of me was stuck in this sort of trauma. And I really, I just, I never felt sort of complete. I never felt really entirely comfortable with myself. And I think it took me to go to therapy and to really realize that ultimately my role in all of this is to be a family member and to be you know, the best possible kind of to be the most value to the people I care about requires me to Value myself. Otherwise, it's all just.

Right.

You know, it's. It's. And so I had to be really miserable and then realize it's just not gonna sustain me. I need to find. You know, I couldn't. You know, it's like that whole thing of, like, can you actually stand in front of a mirror and tell yourself you like yourself?

Oh, man, when was that? When could you actually stand in front of the mirror and say, I like you, I love you, I accept you?

Yeah, it was during the time when I became a parent, I realized that if in order for me to be able to be a father, a real parent, I needed to be able to acknowledge that. Wow. Yeah, in a big way. And that music is, despite what a great job we've done of condensing it.

And.

Monetizing it and commercializing it and making it into these beautiful little package things that at its very core, it is magic. It comes from an intangible space and it inspires us in a very intangible way. to the point where we try to understand it as much as we possibly can. We analyze it. I analyze. It's my job. But the more time I spend doing it, the more I realize it's just magical.

It's more spiritual.

It's pure magic. It finds you when you need it. It stays with you, it holds you, it comes out of you. It is. I truly think it is. It's the biggest trick we've all played on ourselves is that it's not the truth. It's not the true experience of life. Art is the true experience of life. That painting is what it is to be alive. That song is what it is to be alive. That film or that script or that written word or the conversation, anything that is a form of expression is in its true nature. that is, that's, that's, that's the magic being here, I think. So, you know, really, it's just about, you know, allowing ourselves to be human, allowing ourselves to love and allowing ourselves to, to, to, to appreciate art. I just, sometimes we're just not kind to art.

That's true.

Do you know what I mean?

Very critical art.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think I think art is, it's really magic. The longer I go in this life, the more magic I realize it is. It's beautiful.

Yeah. Final question. You've had a lot of beautiful memories and you've been around the greatest musicians in the world. But I'm curious, what is your definition of greatness?

Achieving a sense of understanding what it is you're trying to achieve in the moment, albeit in conversation or be it through ambition or whatever, acknowledging in that moment that you have achieved something and utilizing that to go and inspire you to do something else. The balance between those two things is really what that is. I think The aspiration is very important. The desire to focus and to train, work hard to achieve these goals is great. But I think true greatness is in balance. That's what I think. I think it's in loving what you do and achieving things, inspiring yourself to continue to achieve things, but never at the expense of living a life that is rewarding in every way. I'm big on balance, man. that's what I think.

I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me, as well as ad free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus Channel on Apple podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend. Leave of review over on Apple podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com newsletter. And if no one has told today. I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. I'm Katie Nolan and I have a.

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