How Dopamine Drives Love, Creativity & Addiction w/Daniel Z. Lieberman, MD EP 1255

It's one thing to choose dopamine instead of here and now because it gives you pleasure, but it can very easily get to the point where you're no longer in control. Dopamine is controlling you. And a good example of that is doom scrolling.

So how do we use dopamine for focus, motivation, creativity, and avoiding unhealthy addictions?

I think that we will get the most out of dopamine by.

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That you're dealing with? Yeah, you know, the unconscious mind is what I'm working on for my next book. Dopamine is about the molecule of more.

I'm fascinated in both of them. So what do we need to know about dopamine?

How does it help us? How does it hurt us? Most people, when they think about dopamine, they think about pleasure. But that's just a small piece of what dopamine does. The bigger picture is that it's used to maximize future resources. That's why we called the book the Molecule of More. Dopamine is all about making the future better than the present. And so it can do wonderful things. It can give us energy, motivation, desire, excitement, confidence. but it can also do terrible things. It can make us dissatisfied, unhappy, miserable, constantly chasing something we can never capture. It's a powerful tool. We gotta learn how to use it properly.

What are the most powerful examples of dopamine in a healthy way and then powerful in an unhealthy way that you see in the world happening?

Right. So, you know, I tend to think of entrepreneurs in terms of healthy dopamine. They want to build something that never existed before. And you know what it's like to be an entrepreneur.

Really?

I tried once and I couldn't do it.

It's hard, man.

It's very hard. It's hard. Yeah, you've got to go, go, go, go, go. You've got to be driven by passion. You have to work 10 times as much as if you're working a regular job. But dopamine makes it fun.

Yes.

And that's one of the beautiful things about dopamine is it can make, it can just make us feel so alive as we work to make the future better than the the present.

So dopamine is about seeing something and having an idea in your mind that's not here in the real world. I think in your Ted Talk you talk about there's two different spaces in the world. The space that we're looking down that we can touch and grab and then an external space out there. What are those two spaces called?

Yeah, so when we think about how dopamine evolved, we've got the parapersonal space and that's basically the space in arm's reach.

So anything within my reach, my energetic field of where my arms go to is called the parap what?

Parapersonal.

Parapersonal.

Yeah, parap means around.

Okay, cool.

Right, so what's around you?

And what does that space, what does that mean for us?

That's anything in the parapersonal space is stuff that you own.

Yes.

You've got control over and you interact with it in the present.

So this pen, this notebook, your book, this coffee cup, this iPad, this table. this chair, these clothes that I'm wearing, that's in my personal space.

Yep, exactly. And the way you interact with it is consumatory. That means consume, you know, I can take a drink from this glass of water, but it also refers to consummation. What happens at the end when the thing that you've worked for, you now have, that's the consummation.

Okay.

And that's also related to the parapersonal space, stuff you have now.

Okay, so that's, how does dopamine play into the peripersonal space?

When you are interacting with things in the peripersonal space, dopamine shuts off.

Really? Even your phone?

The atoms and molecules may be in the peripersonal space, but your head is far away when you're interacting with your phone.

Because it's in a different, it's not actually in front of you, it's in a different space.

It's in a different space.

The content you're consuming It might be on the phone, but it's somewhere else.

It's somewhere else. You're usually focused on possibilities when you're in your phone. You're reading social media, you're reading the news. You're thinking about, how is this going to affect me? We're thinking about the future.

Interesting. Okay, and so what's the other space?

The other space is the extra personal space, outside the personal space. That's stuff that's not within arms reach. And it could be an apple across the room on a table, or it could be the moon. Whatever it is, you don't have it. And if you want it, you're going to have to work for it and your interaction with it is going to take place in the future.

Right. So, if there's an apple across the room, it's an easier effort to stand up, go grab the apple and eat it than it is if it was right in front of you. But it's much harder to get to the moon.

Right. But even that apple is going to require some effort, maybe even some planning, and it's happening in the future. It's not happening right now.

It's not in this moment, I can't just grab it and chew it. I have to get up. And there's some times where I'm on the couch watching sports and I see something in the kitchen, I'm like, I really want that, but it's really comfortable right now and I don't want to get up. So you have to have some effort sometimes to go across the room.

You do, you do. But it's funny, sometimes things that we don't have but we want give us more joy than the things we have.

Why is that? The things we desire.

Yeah, there's a great quotation from the book the House at Pooh Corner. Did you read that?

Winnie the Pooh?

Yeah, Winnie the Pooh. I love children's literature. So good. Yeah, so anyways, Christopher Robin asked Pooh, what is it that you like the best in all the world? And of course, first thing Winnie the Pooh thinks about is honey. And he's about to say eating honey, but then he thinks, this is an amazingly sophisticated thing for a children's book. Then he thinks, there's a moment before you start to eat honey that's even better, but he didn't know what it was called. It's called dopamine.

That's dopamine.

That's dopamine. It's the anticipation of about to get a reward and somehow, right, you go into a great restaurant for dinner and you're excited about it, you're thinking about it all day long, you're there, you're chewing the food and your brain's somewhere else.

Really? Or maybe there's a few moments of like, oh, this is amazing, but then after those first few bites here, onto the next.

-Right.

-Gosh, so is that a healthy thing for us to do, to think about the future consistently, but then not appreciate the moment of what we're enjoying that we've been desiring all day or years of a dream that we've been trying to create?

-Right now, it's not healthy at all. -So what? -It's not healthy at all. And you know, one of the things we say is that the guy who is most able to afford the beach house is the least able to enjoy it.

Gosh, why is that?

He goes out to his beautiful beach house, he pulls out his laptop and he's working. He can't just sit there and smell the breeze and... Right?

Why is that?

It's because the guy who can afford to the beach house was born with a pretty powerful dopamine system and it's hard for him to turn it off.

Because he was driven and driven and driven and that's what allowed him to get the resources that he never had in order to Buy the beach house.

Right. Yeah. And then now he's got the beach house. He can't turn it off and enjoy the beach house. He's thinking about what's next. The next deal he's going to do. The trip to Europe. Who knows what?

How can someone be so hungry to reach a vision and create more in a healthy place, but also be satisfied with where they're at?

It's hard. It's hard. You know, the first question is, do they want to? Right.

Do they want to be satisfied or be happy?

Yeah. I mean, you've heard the saying, to travel hopefully is better than to arrive. Have you heard that?

Sure.

Yeah, that's a dopamine saying, of course.

Okay.

Right? It's better to anticipate than to have. And some people don't want to make that shift, you know? To them, the paripersonal, the here and now, it feels all touchy-feely and it makes them uncomfortable and they don't like it. they want to spend their life in the future. I don't think that's healthy, but I'm not gonna judge them, I'm not gonna choose for them.

Sure.

So the first thing is they have to decide whether that's something that they want.

Mm, but where does dopamine, how does dopamine really get you addicted to things like drugs, social media, alcohol, or just bad habits? Yeah.

So it's one thing to choose dopamine instead of here and now because it gives you pleasure. That's a choice. But it can very easily get to the point where you're no longer in control. You're no longer making choices. Dopamine is controlling you. And a good example of that is doom scrolling, right? You're going through your social media, you're bored, you're maybe even unhappy, but you can't stop scrolling. Because what dopamine is saying is one more scroll and there might be something that will change your future. and you can't miss that. And so that's an example. Another example is compulsive eating, for example. We're no longer enjoying that third donut, but something is making us eat it.

I was like, I just want more and more and more.

I feel sick. Every bite makes me feel worse. Why do I keep biting this?

Is that dopamine?

It's dopamine, yeah.

So the dopamine is telling us what? That we're not happy with what we have. We still need more of that thing.

Yeah.

Whether it be social media, I'm not happy with 10 minutes of scrolling, I need 30 minutes, I need 50 minutes, I need, 'cause something is gonna, I'm gonna feel something that I don't have in this moment. Is that what it's saying?

You know, I like to think of it evolutionarily. Human beings evolved on the brink of starvation, right? We were always in a situation where we did not have enough resources and we could be dead tomorrow. And that's where dopamine evolved. And so dopamine is basically keep your eye on the ball. Look, that third donut is making you sick. you might not have calories for the next three days. Get it inside you and you'll be alive.

Wow. So is this genetics then?

It's genetics, yeah.

Really?

Yeah.

So how do we turn the gene off in our favor to not suffer?

That's what we get into in the later parts. And, you know, we, Western civilization is very much of a dopamine civilization of more, more, more. and I think in order to choose balance in one's life, you've got to make an effort not to do that. In the past, we did more of that. One of the ways you get in the here and now is by working with your hands. I don't know if you have any hobbies like working on cars, or woodworking, or drawing, or painting.

I wish I had a talent in any of those, but I don't. I appreciate it, but I play guitar a little bit. I'm not that good, but I play guitar. I love sports though. I like anything with a ball, playing basketball, soccer, football, ping pong, pickleball now I'm loving. So anything where I get to hold something and hit a racket, catch a ball, where it makes me have to focus in that moment if I want to succeed at that thing. I also love salsa dancing, so it's like something interactive where it's listening to music and experiencing it.

Yeah. I think the height of human experience is when these two things are working at the same time, the dopamine circuits in the brain and the here and now circuits. And that happens in sports. The here and now circuits are focused on your body and the ball. What's happening right now? Dopamine circuits are thinking strategy. What's my opponent gonna do? What should I do next? And I think that's some of the intense pleasure of a nice competitive sport.

Yeah, it's fun. Yeah. That's awesome.

Yeah.

So how do we, learn to master dopamine then so that it can help us succeed in everything we want?

I think it's very much about being aware of what's going on.

Okay.

And so, when I was writing this book, I got in the habit of asking myself, is this a dopamine moment or is this a here and now moment? And if it was a dopamine moment, good, think about the future, work hard, make something new, create. Think about possibilities, think about potentialities, things that don't exist. If it's a here and now moment though, spending time with my family.

Don't be thinking about the future.

I'm thinking about the future.

When you're with your kids or when you're with your partner or your friends, right? So turn it off.

Turn it off. Be in the present.

What's the best strategy you've learned to turn it off to be present? You know, because I hear a lot of stories about how parents are, I don't have kids, but I've heard this from parents that they're, their kids want their attention, but they're saying, you know, they're just looking at their phone still or they're distracted because of the addiction, I guess, or that dopamine wanting more of the thing that they don't have right now. So how can people turn it off when they're in those scenarios with friends, family, and activities?

Yeah. So I think the first thing is to be deliberate to say, okay, I'm going to spend the next hour with my kids, and that's not a time where I'm going to be on my phone. I'm going to leave my phone in the bedroom.

Yeah.

And so then you don't have that temptation. And then I think listening is the best way to bring yourself into the present moment.

Listening.

Listening.

How do people learn to listen better?

It's not easy. I think the first thing is to recognize that how hard it is. Yeah. And that a lot of times we're not good at listening. You're having a conversation with someone. A lot of times you're thinking about what you're going to say next.

Exactly.

Rather than what the other person. And people who are very charismatic know how rare this is. And oftentimes charismatic people will be described as making you feel like you're the only person in the room. Right. Because they're in the present moment. Yes. They're present with you.

It's interesting. I grew up feeling very uneducated, not smart, you know, just from school. I performed poorly in school.

Uh-huh.

And I told myself a story that, you know, I'm never gonna be smart enough. No one's ever gonna be interested in me because I'm not a smart person. That's why I told myself growing up. And then I heard a quote, I believe it's by Roosevelt, that says, People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And I said, well, maybe I have a chance if I just show that I care about people and put energy and effort into listening and caring about their lives and their stories, maybe they'll want to hang out with me. So it was kind of like, I don't know, just a strategy to find friends in high school. It was like, let me just pay attention to people and just focus and ask questions that I'm curious about and listen. And I started doing that in business early on when I had no skills on making money or starting a business. I had no idea what I was gonna do. But in the business world, I would go to networking events and I would just ask people questions about themselves and I would never talk about myself ever. And at the end of these events, people were like, you,'re the most interesting person in the room. And I never said anything. I just asked questions and paid attention while everyone was being distracted and looking around the room, I just focused. And it served me well, you know, and it's probably one of the reasons why I wanted to do an interview show, just to be able to sit down and ask questions.

Yeah.

So you don't have to be the smartest person in the room, but if you can pay attention, then that can help you in a lot of ways.

And how old were you when you came to that realization?

I was like 16 probably, yeah. But then it was like one of my early 20s when I really started to practice it.

Yeah. It can take people a lifetime to have that insight though. It's amazing to have that at such an early age.

Yeah. I was like, I'll never be as smart as someone like you. You know, I'll never be able to do this research and dive in and be this like scientist. of the brain or neuroscience or things like that. But if I can just put my effort and energy towards paying attention and listening to people and asking questions that open people's hearts and minds, that will get them, you know, grateful in that moment. And gratitude goes a long way for people.

Yeah.

So it sure does. That was my strategy. I'm not gonna be the smartest. I'm gonna be the most caring. That was the goal.

That's great. That's great. And what's interesting to me about that is that it arose out of hardship. It arose because you suffered.

Exactly.

Feeling that you weren't smart enough.

Absolutely.

And we worked so hard in life to avoid hardship. And yet, that's often the most valuable thing we experience in life.

Why is it so valuable to experience hardship?

I think it's because that when things are going smoothly, we don't have to change. And standing still in life is not good for us. We need to grow. You've seen middle-aged people who still behave like they're in college. They're desperately hanging on to a point in their life that they felt was the best point for them. And it's sad. It's very, very sad to see. We've got to keep growing, but we don't want to. Right? You know, it's much easier to stay still and just- It's comfortable. Yeah, it's very comfortable. So we need hardship to push us out of that comfort zone and make us grow.

When I think back on the last, I guess my entire life, and I think about the most hard and most difficult experiences that I've faced and the lessons I learned from that, I go back and think, man, I wish I wouldn't have experienced them in the moment, but I want to take it back based on the lessons I've learned and how much I've grown from them. I think we need to decide are we going to learn and develop and grow in these hardships because some of us don't. Something hard happens and we just stay stuck as opposed to break through.

Yeah, Nietzche said, what doesn't kill me makes me stronger. It's not true for everybody. You've got to embrace that and you can't let yourself feel crushed by adversity. You've got to overcome it and then you'll be stronger.

How do you overcome it though?

I think you prepare yourself. I think you've got to prepare yourself by getting good at, you can't just say, when the big thing happens, I'm going to rise to the occasion. You've got to focus on the little things, right?

Like what?

You don't say, well, when I'm talking to this very important person who could change my life, I'm going to listen to what they're saying. No, listen to what everybody is saying. Listen to what the bus driver is saying, right? And then you get in the habit. Aristotle said that virtue is a habit that you can't expect to do the right thing when the big thing happens unless you're in the habit of doing the right thing when the little things happen.

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It really is. I say to my students, if you want to do the right thing when the chips are down as a doctor, write good notes. You focus on the little things and the big things will take care of themselves.

That's interesting. So how do we use dopamine for focus, motivation, creativity, and avoiding unhealthy addictions?

I think that we we'll get the most out of dopamine by keeping it in balance with the here and now. Dopamine becomes our enemy when it becomes the end all and be all, right? I've got to get a new wardrobe, I've got to get a new cell phone, I've got to get a new car. But if we balance it, if we keep it in perspective, if we don't take it that seriously, if we learn how to laugh at ourselves for constantly wanting more, more, more, while at the same time accepting it, you know, not trying to be saintly. That's, I think, keeping in perspective is what's going to be the best.

And do you think people need to go through a dopamine detox?

Dopamine detox is very controversial. A lot of people say that that's just a fairy tale.

Okay.

Right? Because when you get hungry and you eat, you get a big big release of dopamine. When you work hard and you accomplish something, you get a big release of dopamine. So what are you going to do during the detox? You're going to not eat, you're going to not work, you're going to not make plans to make yourself happy. You're just going to be miserable, bored and stupid.

So you can't really do that.

You can't really do that.

Maybe there are certain things that you could say, what are the things that I've been doing too much of on social media too much? I'm watching too much trash TV. I'm doing certain activities maybe that bring this constant feeling of dopamine, right?

That aren't healthy.

Right.

We can pay attention to things that we're squeezing too hard. Right. Right. Like if you're the kind of person who can enjoy a nice piece of fruit and move on, okay, you don't need to eliminate that. But if you're the kind of person who eats a candy bar and then eats two, three, four, five, you should eliminate that at least for a while. Gotcha. And that, you know, so maybe we'll.

Say an unhealthy dopamine detox. Yeah, unhealthy dopamine detox. Where does dopamine and addiction come into play? And what would you say is kind of the root of all addictions?

Mm-. Yeah. Let's talk about chemical addictions, because those are the most straightforward. So there are dopamine circuits in your brain, and there's different ones, and I'd love it if we had a chance to talk about the different ones. Sure, yeah. But the one we think about with addictions is technically called the mesolimbic circuit. We call it the desire circuit, which is a little bit more descriptive. The desire circuit gives you reward. Okay. So the desire circuit goes off.

Is this in the limbic part of the brain?

Mm-. Okay.

Yeah, the reptilian part of the brain. Gotcha. Okay, cool. So it's kind of in the center, in the middle mass, right?

Yeah. Yep, that's right.

Not on the top, on the mushroom.

Top, it's more in the middle. Deep, it's deep. Yeah. Okay, so this is the desire circuit of the brain. Yeah. We could also call it the reward circuit, right? Eat when you're hungry, you get a pat on the back, when you do a good job, you get an award. All of these things promote your evolutionary success. Really? Yeah. So we work to stimulate our dopamine reward center. Now, chemicals like cocaine and alcohol and nicotine, they artificially stimulate this center. And some of them can hit it like a nuclear weapon. and give it a stronger blast than any natural behavior can do. Now, a lot of times we make decisions in life based on what's going to give us more dopamine. So for example, should I go to work today or should I go see a movie? Well, I'm going to go to work because if I see a movie, that's going to have a really negative effect on my future.

Sure.

Right? And that feels rational. Now, when drugs start giving these chemical blasts of dopamine to the limbic system, It starts to feel rational to do drugs instead of other things. And so when you see some poor guy out on the street and he's lost his job, his house, his family, his health for his drug, you say, My God, what on earth is making him do that? That's crazy. But from the inside, it appears perfectly rational. He's choosing the thing that gives him the biggest dopamine And in the absence of drugs, that's a strategy that usually works.

So, what I'm hearing you say, correct me if I'm wrong, people that are addicted to some type of drug, they make it logical in their mind that this is a logical thing to do because it's making me feel a certain thing. Is that right?

Right. It's making me feel successful. Really? Yeah, yeah.

By alcoholism, smoking, cigarettes, weed, cocaine, When.

They'Re high, when they're high. Afterwards, they fight. -For the world. -Right. Right. You know, nothing can touch me. Gotcha. I'm Superman, I'm so great. You see people on cocaine and everyone hates them 'cause they're so arrogant and obnoxious and horrible.

But in the moment, they feel like they're invincible. -Yeah, that's right. -What happens after the moment? After the high?

-Yeah. Is there a shame, a guilt, a... -Yeah. Yeah. The body takes revenge.

Really?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, you've not been stimulating dopamine naturally. You've been basically taking a whip to the brain and forcing it to deliver that dopamine and you exhaust its stores. Really? And so when you come down, you're dopamine deprived and that's a horrible feeling.

What happens when you're dopamine deprived?

Let me give you a sense of how it feels. And this is just a little tiny trivial example. Every morning you go to the bakery and you get a cup of coffee and a croissant. And that's your habit. In the beginning, it gave you dopamine because it was new. But only novelty can give you dopamine. After a while it becomes the same old, same old. So you're standing in line for your croissant and your coffee. Suddenly your phone rings and someone's like, drop whatever you're doing and get over here right now. and you get no croissant and coffee that day. In the brain, dopamine is shutting down and it's making you feel resentful and deprived.

But you didn't get what you wanted.

Yep, what you expected. What you expected.

Interesting.

Yeah. So that's how it feels to have a dopamine deficiency. You feel resentful and deprived.

How can you, I guess, navigate it then? So you do something, maybe you have a routine, but then you mix it up every now and then so you're not expecting something all the time. And the novelty guys brings you dopamine of something new or something different or mixing it up.

So you may say, I'm not gonna have that croissant and coffee for a month. And then when I go back to it, oh my God.

It feels amazing, right? That's right. It's like delayed gratification. How does that play into dopamine? Delaying, like the marshmallow test.

Yeah, yeah. Well, it stimulates it because you're keeping the thing you want in the future. It's like the advice that mothers used to give their daughters in the past, don't have sex until after marriage because the guy's gonna lose interest. Right. Right, where if you say, hey, you gotta wait, that's delayed gratification, that's gonna keep dopamine expecting, anticipating, exciting. So yeah, delayed gratification is a good way to boost up dopamine.

Really?

Yeah.

So is it better to, let's say I want a cookie, right? And I say, you know what? I'm gonna wait a month until I have a cookie or a candy bar, a cake or whatever.

Yeah.

I'm gonna wait a month and I'm gonna think about it, I'm gonna imagine it, I'm gonna, you know, think of the taste of this cookie. But the only way for me to get this cookie is if I work out five days a week for a month. Let's say I make this game up.

Yeah.

What is that gonna do for myself as opposed to, I'm gonna have a cookie every day? Whether I work out every day or don't work out every day, versus if I do this thing five days a week for a month, then I get a cookie. Am I going to be happier during that entire month or less happy with the go for the month, then you get the cookie versus I get a cookie every day?

Right, right. Happy can mean different things. So for example, if I say, I'm happy that I'm going to get a new iPhone. It's a different feeling than saying, I'm happy because I just got this new iPhone. Those are two very, very different things.

What's the difference between the levels of happiness of, I'm going to get something versus, I just got it? Yeah.

So when you are happy about something that's going to happen, it makes you feel excited, energized. Maybe it makes you feel strong and powerful and confident.

Like you know it's coming. Yeah. Okay.

When you're happy because you have something, it makes you feel satisfied and fulfilled. And it's like, ah. And those are very different feelings.

Sure.

Some people like one more than the other. You know, others like the other.

Where, how much dopamine comes in either form?

With the second, there is zero dopamine. It turns off.

Once you get something, once you get an award, once you get the cookie, once you buy something within minutes, dopamine turns off.

Turns off.

Because you already have it now.

Because now you're interesting. And dopamine doesn't function in a very personal.

Really?

And so for some people, that's a moment of disappointment.

It's so interesting to say this because most of my young adult life, let's say, for years, I would spend 10 or 15 years with a goal in sports. I was like, I'm gonna be an All-American athlete. I said this when I was five years old. And I remember, and I was a two sport All-American I said I was gonna be a professional athlete, all these different things. And I remember when I, the first time I became an All-American athlete, there was so much joy, like, and anticipation getting, like, before it actually happened, right. And the buildup and the training and the, and the hard work and the failures and all these different. things. And then my name got called for being in the top eight in the country in the decathlon.

Wow.

And I remember feeling like so like excited and happy for a moment. And then maybe 10-20 minutes later, I was really sad, depressed, angry, kind of moody. I was kind of moody. And my family was there. It was supposed to be the celebration. We were having dinner and I was kind of like moody. I didn't want to be around anyone.

Almost as if you were coming off cocaine.

Maybe I've never been on a cocaine.

But yeah, maybe that's how it feels.

That's what, that's what, yeah, people. It was weird and I was like.

Kind of like, didn't want to be around anyone. Wow. I don't know, you know, so. Dopamine crash.

Is that what it is? Yeah, you're having a dopamine crash. Wow. Yeah. That's crazy. But I wonder if it's because I wasn't really celebrating the moments in between, like enough. It was more like, okay, I keep pushing until I hit this goal. And when I have it, then I'll be satisfied, but I wasn't satisfied.

Blood.

Now I have a more of approach where I'm going to enjoy and celebrate every day the best way I can and appreciate every day all the ups and downs and everything that comes in between and find appreciation for my health and my relationships and the work that I'm doing, even if it's not the biggest successful day. And I feel much more balanced in that approach. I'm not sure if that's something you talk about, but.

Well, I think it's another example of You pay attention to the little things and the big things take care of themselves.

Absolutely.

You know, just related to your Decathlon story, I was once giving a talk and there was an artist in the audience and he told me the most miserable times of his life are when he finishes a piece of art.

Oh my goodness, really?

Yeah. When he finishes it, he's like, Now he's miserable. Now he's miserable because, and when, you know, I had so much fun writing this book and when I finished the book, it was a real sense of loss. Really? Yeah, because that part of my life.

Was always because I was done. So what do we do when we accomplish something, when we achieve, when we create, when we ship, when we launch, when we build, when we post, you know, how do we not have this dopamine depression, you know?

That's such a dopamine-ergic question. The correct answer is you just experience whatever happens in the present moment. So if you finish a work of art, be miserable, be miserable. Because that's what life is about. Life is not about always being on the top of the world. In order to enjoy the good moments, you have to suffer through the bad moments.

-Man.

-And live those suffering bad moments. That's part of life.

-I think it's also, what's worked for me is to have, and maybe there's some psychological term behind this, but it's having a meaningful mission for my life. where it doesn't matter if I'm accomplishing something, my mission is to be of service. And whether that's just saying hi to someone and being of service in the moment or doing it in a grander way of reaching millions of people in a day with a piece of content, my mission is to be of service and to be as joyful as possible.

Yeah.

And I can do that at all stages. You know, it's like I don't have to be accomplishing the biggest things in order to be living that mission. That helps me kind of manage those emotional ups and downs, I think.

I think that's so insightful. We talk about what can we do to be happy, right? But we forget that pursuing happiness is really not the best way to get happiness. Pursuing meaning, you pursue meaning and happiness will just come.

Yeah. What's the meaning for you? What's your mission or meaningful mission?

Yeah, so it changes a lot, you know? And we were talking about the unconscious mind earlier, and I think that that's where your mission comes from. A lot of people say, well, I want to be this kind of person. I want to be the kind of person who cares about the environment or cares about poverty or that. And so they go, and they're like, Gosh, I don't really care about it.

You don't care about it.

That's right. You got to find out what you really care for and then pursue that.

How do you know what you really care for?

It has to do with paying attention. You know, you got to stop thinking about what do I wish I were like and start paying attention to what am I really like? Okay, I'm miserable. You can ask yourself, what can I do not to be miserable? Or you can say, let me see what this misery feels like. Let me get to know this misery better. because then I'll get to know myself better.

When was the most miserable time in your life?

I know about your childhood. I had a tough childhood too. My parents divorced when I was eight years old and they hated each other.

It's not fun growing up in a household with people that are arguing and screaming and not expressing love with one another. It's really challenging and their hatred for.

One another was so intense they had no bandwidth left over to care for their kids.

Oh man.

And so we were just kind of out there fending for ourselves, trying to figure things out.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

How long did it take you to heal those memories and wounds?

Any day now, it's gonna happen.

Really? Yeah. Wow.

Okay. But that's part of who I am.

Yeah, of course. That's what drives you to be of service and help people find healing and relief.

That's right.

It's what you care about because of the pain. Yeah.

And also, you know, I often think that I don't have a lot of self-confidence. It's hard for me to see myself as a good and worthy person.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so it drives me to do things like write books and, you know, study hard.

Yeah.

So I try to, I try to say, look, this is what my life is. and I'm gonna have gratitude for the good parts of it. I'm not gonna say, oh, I wish.

It were something else. Are a lot of people making decisions based on survival strategy, like creating survival strategies? Sounds like you went into this and you're like, I'm gonna work really hard. I'm gonna study extra hard. I'm gonna become on the board of this and the board of this and teach here and write these books and learn more and more to try to serve to find that worthiness and I guess self-confidence. And same thing for me in a different approach. I was like, I'm gonna care about everyone in the world, you know? Because no one I felt like no one cared about me. So it's like, I gotta find a strategy. And I feel like I've gone beyond that now where I've really loved myself and care for myself and healed the inner child and I'm on that journey of healing. But it's a journey, man.

Yes, it is.

It's a journey.

It sure is, yeah. Yeah, and I think it's important to recognize that, that we're not where we need to be, that we still have a lot of growing to do. and we've got to enjoy the ride. We can't always be focused on what's next.

So how much. I mean, this is something you study. This is something you teach. This is something you are practitioner in. You have clients and patients in this on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the most, one being the least. How much self-love and worthiness do you have for yourself?

Those who can't do teach. So I work on it. When I started writing this book, I started meditating. As I was writing this book, I started meditating because I began to realize how dopaminergic I was.

Dopamine what?

Dopaminergic.

Dopaminergic.

Yeah.

What does that mean?

It's just an allergy to dopamine. No, no, no. It means very focused on dopamine.

Okay.

That the future.

The future.

The future. The future.

Not the now.

Yes.

So meditation, breathing strategies bring you back into now.

Right, right.

And what happens to people that are only focused on the future?

I. I think that they're very unhappy because you can't be satisfied. Because if you're satisfied, it comes to a screeching halt. see you right? And your mind is always somewhere else. And so, you know, sometimes I'm walking down the street to work and I just notice what a beautiful world it is. You know, the birds are singing.

I love that.

I'm smelling flowers in the air.

Good for you. It's good practice.

Yeah. Yeah. If you're always focused on the future, you never get that. Yes. And I think that one of the things I realized is that reality, and reality only exists in the present, right? The future is always unreal. Reality is a million times richer than anything that we can imagine. Wow. And so if you're always thinking about what might be in the future, you're living in this poor, thin, pale world, whereas if you're in the richness of reality, it's a much nicer place to live. Wow.

So reality is a beautiful place. The future, the imagination can seem like a beautiful place in our mind. Imagining something, a world, an experience, an environment that we don't have yet that might improve the quality of our current reality. Is that right though? So, there's a beauty of thinking creativity. I think Einstein talked about like imagination is one of the most powerful things human can do or whatever.

Yeah.

So imagining something greater than where you're suffering or where maybe you're not as fulfilled or happy.

Yeah.

So it's kind of sounds like a dance. Maine, where life the way it should be transforms all who encounter its spectacular landscapes. Rugged coastlines, pine-scented trails, sandy beaches, sparkling lakes, and tranquil forests inspire you to reflect and make meaningful moments. They offer endless opportunities for adventure and exploration, whether peddling or paddling, hiking or biking. Maine has more than enough outdoor spaces to make the most of long summer days, relish in exquisite flavors harvested from the ocean and the rich soils of orchards and fields. Maine's makers are rooted in its heritage while boldly branching into new ways of thinking, doing and being. Connect with its people in warm and authentic towns which beckon you to stroll art galleries and locally owned shops where generations of artists, writers, entrepreneurs, and craftspeople see the world anew. It's tempting to do it all when you visit, but take a beat and a breath. Get a feel for the time and tempo of Maine. Simple pleasures, scenic adventures, where every route is the scenic one. Discover more at visitmaine.com the path to.

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It is, because if you were unworthy and didn't love yourself and were growing up scared in this environment, you don't want to be in that environment anymore. There's a reality that's not helpful. And that taught me to be somewhere else.

Exactly. Not a healthy habit to acquire. But it helps you get out of.

That current state of pain and suffering. So there's a, it sounds like a dance, right? It's a dance.

You got to go back and forth.

You can't just say, I'm going to enjoy, like, my parents, like, screaming at each other and. and feeling worthless, you don't wanna just enjoy that, do you?

Right, right, right. It's a dance, it's a balance. Now some people choose, for example, like a Tibetan monk, right? They're gonna say no dopamine. They're gonna choose to live their entire life having gratitude for the present moment.

Absolutely.

And there are ways of putting people in a brain scanner and telling how happy they are. And Tibetan monks score highest on that score than anybody else.

On happiness. 'Cause they're just grateful in the moment for everything, right?

Yeah, yeah, they are. Tough path for Westerners to follow. We have a different destiny. We want more. We want more. And we want to be like Einstein. We want to create things that never existed before. And there's a real nobility in that. The Tibetan monks have their own nobility, but there's also a nobility in creation, which they don't engage in.

In evolution and building and evolving, yes.

Yeah.

So scale one to ten, where are you?

Yeah. So if one is the Tibetan monk and 10 is the wor-- well, 10.

Is like the happiest.

Oh, the happiest. Yeah, the happiest.

One is the most-- yeah, I'd say.

I'm about a six, seven maybe on a good day. Yeah.

That's good.

How about you?

I feel like I'm an eight, nine.

Oh, nice.

But I really practice. especially with my girlfriend, like, waking up and literally just being like, I'm so grateful for you. I'm grateful for this moment. I'm grateful for waking up. I'm grateful for my body. And then I do things that bring me more gratitude for the actions I'm taking. So this morning, I woke up early, I did a workout, and I'm like, man, I'm so grateful for, like, taking this action because I know it's going to help my future self. So it's kind of like being being present, but also I'll do something weird with my mind where I imagine myself years in the future next to me. It's kind of weird and saying like, thank you for taking care of my future. Thank you for now we're gonna have a better, healthier existence because of this hour exercise.

Form of love.

It's like loving myself from the future to now.

Yes.

Which kind of sounds weird. I don't know what psychologically what that's called anything, but it's it's future casting. It's like appreciating myself in the future.

For what I'm doing now. So interesting. It's melding the future and the project. Yes. Yeah.

But it's so it's thinking about the future, but just saying I'm so grateful for what I'm doing in this moment and appreciating the moment. So I think my girlfriend does a great job of it of bringing presence. Also, I can be thinking about what I want to create for my business non-stop all day if I wanted to. I can go home at night and I can just keep working. But with her, it's like she, you know, I want to say demands it, but she is a force of presence that requires me to be present with her. She'll just come sit right in front of me and put her face in front of me. You know, okay, let me just. Let's talk. Excuse me.

I exist.

Yeah, well, it's not that I'm avoiding her or something, but she just comes in and she'll sit next to me or she'll just come and hug me and it's just like, okay, I'm gonna be present with her for however long we're gonna be present for. And I think that's a helpful thing for people to be in relationships with other human beings where they see people, where they are required to be present. Yeah, and so it's a beautiful gift.

And by taking that time away from your work, It probably actually makes you get more work done.

Absolutely.

That's the thing I struggle with my patients. A lot of my patients are constantly working, working, working, and they're terrified that if they take the slightest breath, the house of cards will come tumbling down. But I say to them, if you take time off, you're actually going to get more work done.

I believe it. I was interviewing this pastor, Pastor Michael Todd, He runs a Christian church in the Midwest. And he said, one of the best pieces of advice he got from one of his mentor pastors who was kind of mentoring him as he was growing up in the world of the church said, every year take one month off where you don't do any work. There's no laptop, there's no emails, there's no nothing. It's all play, fun, family, you know, vacation, whatever it is. It was like a month, that's so much time.

Yeah.

And he says, it's non-negotiable every year he's been doing this. And he says, I come back, I come up with the greatest ideas. And he's like, that's where I came up with the idea for my next book that was a New York Times bestseller from that space in between the work.

Yes.

And he's like, there's an urge to want to start working, but I just have to pause. And when I came back, then I had all this energy and creativity and and focus to get it done faster.

One of the things that requires is trust. You know, we spoke a lot about how we want to be in control of things. How do you make yourself enthusiastic? How do you make yourself interested? No, you have to trust. You take the month off and maybe it will be a complete waste of time. Right. Or maybe you'll come up with a New York Times bestselling book. Ooh. Right?

How much time have you ever taken off? since you started your practice. Have you taken a half day off yet?

I'll take long weekends. I like long weekends.

That's good.

I can't take off, it's hard for me to take off a full week.

Really?

I just don't know what to do with myself.

You have kids?

Yeah.

How many kids do you have?

I got two boys.

Two boys, how old?

They are now, oof, 25 and 20.

Wow, okay, cool. One of the best things I did for myself, this was probably four or five years ago, I came to a realization where I said, wow, for 15 years, every day I've had my phone, I've touched my phone. Maybe not all day, but I've touched my phone for 15 years. This was probably four years ago or something or five years ago. Because I got my first cell phone in 2000, right? So it was like, maybe it was six years ago or whatever, seven years ago. But I was like 15 years, I've touched my phone every day since 2000. This must have been 2015. And I said, what's a challenge for me? What's something that seems like I could never do? And I said, going away for a week and not having my phone with me. And so I made a commitment. I said, I'm gonna go to, I went to Hawaii and by myself, left my phone and laptop at home. No electronics on me. I mean, it felt so uncomfortable the first like day and a half because first off, I forgot where my rental car was. So I went to every rental car place and said, Did I get this here? I didn't even have all the information. I didn't have a GPS in my phone. So I stopped at gas stations asking for directions to hotels. It felt like back in 1990.

I remember those days. Yeah, yeah.

After the second day, it felt like the most incredible surrender and peace. I was laying in the ocean, not thinking about, oh, my phone is on the beach, or I need to check something. And I almost didn't want to go back to having a phone.

I want to do that.

It was the greatest gift I gave myself. And so my challenge to you would be to find at least a week to do that for yourself.

I think Hawaii would be a good place to do it. Yeah.

Leave your electronics at home.

Yes. That would be very hard, but I could imagine a realization coming at some point during that week saying, I've been enslaved by this and I'm finally free.

That's how I felt. Freedom. It was incredible. Okay, so you're at a six or a seven. What would it take for you, do you think, to get to an eight, nine or 10? What is the unresolved stuff that you haven't faced that you feel like would support you and improving the quality of that inner peace or joy. Because the reason I ask and the reason I challenge you, Daniel, is because I believe your work and your message and your mission is extremely valuable for humanity. And so I want you to be at an 8, 9 or 10 to be able to give more from that space of self-love and worthiness. Because I feel like you'll be able to serve at a higher level at that space. So that's why I'm challenging you and asking you this.

Yeah. So one of the things I've been doing more is learning to say no.

Oh, that's good. So creating a boundary. Yeah.

When I first started my career as a psychiatrist, I decided that I was going to say yes to everything.

You have to when you're starting.

You have to.

You've got to build something.

You've got to build. You've got to be the guy that people will go to and they know the job will get done.

I'll show up here, I'll take on this project, I'll do whatever you need. Yes.

And that worked out really, really well, but then that became my habit. And I started finding myself getting resentful. I felt like I was giving, giving, giving, and I wasn't getting what I expected in return. And so then I just started saying no. I won't do that. Beautiful happiness went up.

It went up a lot. That's one of the most powerful things. I think it took me the longest to learn that in intimate relationships where I would choose, I don't blame anyone that I ever dated, but I would choose certain relationships and then I felt like I needed to say yes to make them happy or to do what they wanted for whatever it was. And I realized the things that I didn't want to say yes to. so it was never them, it was about me abandoning myself and being in constant abandonment of my own self-love or what I really wanted. And so I think when I learned that lesson, it's been such a beautiful, peaceful environment inside in that. And when I started doing that in business years ago as well, and I found like, wow, I have so much more freedom and peace from that. So I think that's a beautiful thing that you're doing.

One of the things my wife said to me is that when you open your hand to let go of something, your hand is now able to get the next thing. Right. You know, and you can't receive the next gift unless you're able to give up the last one.

That's so true. I was asking you before about this. You see patients almost every day or a few days every day? Every day. Yeah.

And.

What type of practice is it that people come to you for? What is the main thing that people come to you for?

My expertise is psychopharmacology. That is using medications to treat psychiatric illnesses.

Okay.

And my specialty is bipolar disorder.

Really?

Depression and depression as well.

Where does depression and bipolar disorder stem from? What is the root cause?

It's really biological.

Really?

Yeah. You know, in the old days we would look at a person's past and that has an effect how healthy the environment they grew up in is going to determine their strength to recover. But really it's about a genetic vulnerability. Really? Yeah.

But don't some people get in more depressed states, seasons of life or if something traumatic happens, they might be in a depressed state, but other times they can be in a less depressed state.

Well, one of the challenges that we face is separating normal emotional experiences in life from medical illnesses.

Gotcha.

You know, one of the challenges that psychiatry faces is that it's often not viewed as a medical specialty in the same way that cardiology or pulmonology is. Right?

Because it can't be seen really, I guess. Right? It's more in the mind.

That's right. And also because the brain is so hideously complex. You know, the heart's a pump. I don't want to dish my cardiology colleagues, but the heart's a pump.

The brain is like a hundred trillion freaking cells and yeah, we just had a brain surgeon on recently who's a neuroscientist as well. He's done over a thousand brain surgeries. Wow. He was like, he's like, you could cut out a piece of the brain where they think is, you know, I can't remember exactly what he said, but it's called the analytical side of the brain. You could cut out a piece of it and the person can still be analytical because the brain can readjust.

Yeah.

And rework itself. It's like this.

Yeah.

Incredible.

Yeah. And it's. It's complexity makes Psychiatry a younger science. Yes. Because we don't understand as much about our organ. as our cardiologist colleagues do. And so I think that in some ways we get less respect because we're kind of, we're at a much more primitive level. But it's still medicine. It's still medicine and we still approach it scientifically. And when the brain is broken, that's different than when people are going through difficult experiences in their life. And their brain is responding the way you would expect it to, the hard things.

I asked you before, I said, what's been the biggest, I guess, challenge over the last year? What type of people have come to you in the last year? And you said, what did you say specifically? People who might have an extreme mental illness versus people who are going through extreme adverse challenges. Yes.

So, you know, all of my patients are being treated for a mental illness. And, you know, usually once they get better, it holds and they stay better, but not always. so they're coming in and they're saying, gosh, I'm feeling like I did before I saw you. Did the treatment you gave me stop working or is it because I'm stressed out and upset just like all my friends who don't have mental illnesses? Gotcha. We have to figure that one out.

So how do you determine if someone is, needs an actual medication or if they need to, you know, heal a wound that they haven't healed or they need to heal trauma or they need to get out of an a toxic relationship or they need to stop watching the news or they need eight hours of sleep or eating healthier foods or all the things lifestyle wise that support a better feeling, a better mood.

Yes. I just ask them, how are the people at work doing? About the same as you? And if they say, yeah, everyone's the same as me, I'm like, healthy lifestyle. But if they say, no, everyone's pretty much okay and I can't drag myself out of bed in the morning because of this feeling of dread, I say, let's take another look at your medications.

Interesting. Is there a way to heal depression without medication?

There is. Mild to moderate depression can be healed without medication. Severe depression though is going to need medication.

Really?

Yeah.

There's no way to get out of severe depression from extreme lifestyle shifts or again, psychologically going back into childhood wounds and starting the healing journey and creating self-love inside and finding meaning and all these different things. Doctors never say never.

Okay. Right. Because he liked that. I'm glad you said that.

Yeah.

The human body is. We play the odds. Medicine is about statistics. It's about rolling the dice for the best outcome. But if you've got severe depression and you're going to try and do it.

Without medication, the odds are way against you. So you're saying it's much harder with severe depression where you're like, I can't get out of bed. I I can't think, I can't move.

It's hard to- I'm suffering from a psychosis. I'm hearing voices telling me I'm a horrible person. Severe depression is no joke. It's a real broken brain. People can have delusions. Their body is riddled with disease.

They can have the delusion, I'm responsible for all the evil in the world.

It's not true, but they have this truth that's not a reality. Depression can be a fatal illness. Yeah, it leads to suicide. so it's an illness to be taken very, very seriously.

Right, so if it's extreme, then medication you're saying is the way to get out of the extreme to start saying, okay, now you have some more balance to start changing lifestyle stuff to see if that'll help you, right, and increase the mood or?

You know, if somebody has that extreme of depression, it's generally a chronic illness. Gotcha. And that's not to say that lifestyle and other changes isn't going to be incredibly helpful. But, you know, let's think about diabetes. Sometimes people can overcome diabetes with lifestyle changes. Sometimes they can't. If they need medication, lifestyle changes will still be enormously helpful.

Sure, sure.

But we don't want to fall into the stigma of saying, well, mental illnesses don't count. Yeah, we're going to give the diabetic patient medication, but the guy with depression, he's going to have to tough it out.

Sure, sure.

Right.

Yeah, there's a lot of cases now where Dr. Jason Fung is talking about reversing pre-diabetes or early stage type 2 diabetes or able to reverse it through fasting, through eliminating certain foods and lifestyle changes. But the farther along it is, it's obviously much harder to reverse without having medication or something like that. That's interesting. Now, I'm curious about this. I'm forgetting the doctor I had on the name of them off to come back and think about it. But I asked him about different stages of his life. He's probably in his 70s now. I'm forgetting his name. And he, there were different stages in his life where he said he was at lower points, more depressed type states, right? Maybe not full depression, but depressed states. and lower points of enthusiasm, lower points of creativity and wanting to, you know, show up and work every day, right? And things like that. Gaining weight, all these different things. And I said, what changed? And he said, Love. He said, meeting someone.

Yeah.

And feeling powerful love changed the way I thought, changed the way I felt, changed the way saw the world. How powerful is love when it comes to mental illness, depression, overwhelm, stress, how powerful is the feeling of love, feeling loved by another human being, or fully loving yourself, re-parenting yourself psychologically, and giving yourself the love that you never had as a child or bonding with someone chemically through that feeling of love, how can that shift your depression, your states, and your desire to want to give and create more in the world?

I think that love involving another person is probably the single most powerful thing there is.

Really?

Yeah, absolutely. Personally, when I met my wife, that was more healing than anything I'd ever experienced before. Really? Yeah, that completely changed me. Completely changed me as a person. Yeah.

Wow. Maine, where life the way it should be transforms all who encounter its spectacular landscapes. Rugged coastlines, pine-scented trails, sandy beaches, sparkling lakes, and tranquil forests inspire you to reflect and make meaningful moments. They offer endless opportunities for adventure and exploration. Whether peddling or paddling, hiking or biking, Maine has more than enough outdoor spaces to make the most of long summer days. Relish in exquisite flavors harvested from the ocean and the rich soils of orchards and fields. Maine's makers are rooted in its heritage while boldly branching into new ways of thinking, doing, and being. Connect with its people in warm and authentic towns which beckon you to stroll art galleries and locally owned shops. Where Generations of artists, writers, entrepreneurs, and craftspeople see the world anew. It's tempting to do it all when you visit, but take a beat and a breath. Get a feel for the time and tempo of Maine. Simple pleasures, scenic adventures, where every route is the scenic one. Discover more at visitmaine.com the path to.

Retirement is different for everyone, and as life changes, so do priorities. Fidelity can help you get where you want to go. With a free personalized plan, goal tracking, and timely insights, you'll be set to take on retirement. Whether you're saving for it or already living in it, get started at fidelity.com/takeon. Expenses charged by your investments and other costs and fees associated with trading or.

Transacting in your account apply.

Fidelity Brokerage Services member NYSC SIPC. Yeah.

So do you think people that are depressed have love? Or are able to feel love? Maybe there's someone's loving them but they're not able to receive it.

Again, I think we need to be very careful about distinguishing depression as a medical illness versus. Yeah, because it's so easy to fall into the habit of blaming people for their mental illness. Say, oh, if only you loved yourself more, you wouldn't be depressed. Of course, yeah, of course. We don't say somebody with cancer, oh.

You know, if only. Of course, right. I'm just curious how powerful if we learn to receive and give and feel love.

Let me give you the most powerful example I've come across.

Share it with me.

And it's one of the most terrible mental illnesses there is, narcissistic personality disorder.

Oh, this has been a massive topic that people are covering.

Is that right?

And we had a narcissistic, expert therapists come on and talk about it. And, I mean, it's got over a million views on our Channel already from that alone. And I think so many people have been in narcissistic relationships where they face this, like, sucking of their soul out of someone else. I know I've experienced that.

You have. Wow.

But I wasn't aware of it until after the fact. Right. Until it's like, you learn to heal your. Your own self, and it was like.

Oh, I deserved that.

It's crazy. It's crazy. So tell me more about narcissism and love and where you're going with this.

So for a psychiatrist, narcissism is just brutal.

How many narcissists come into your practice?

When I was a resident, I was assigned a patient who had narcissism and I worked with him for two years and I did nothing for him. And I remember a dream I had once. I was trying to climb a wall of glass. and there was nowhere for me to get a hold. And that's what it was like working with this poor man.

Oh, you're gonna bring me back to my past now, yeah.

There was nothing, I couldn't get it, I couldn't get a hold, and there was nothing I could do to help him change. Because everything was always other people's fault.

There's never responsibility, right?

No, I'm not a bad man. I liked him, I felt sorry for him, he was miserable. But I couldn't he nothing was ever his fault.

That is like this sign of a narcissist, right? One of the many signs.

One of the many.

Blame everyone and never take responsibility. I faced that in a couple of relations.

And so after two years of that, when a narcissist would come consult me, I would say, look, I can't take your money. Yeah.

It's so funny, this therapist that we had on who teaches about this and educates people on what to look for with narcissism. does a YouTube channel. She was like, it's rare that I'll even treat a narcissist because they'll never want to go to therapy. They'll only go because they're forced to go from their partner or something, or they're good. They're threatening a divorce, and so they have to go. But it's like they need to go almost every day for years in order for them to say, you know what? I'm gonna see it differently. I'm gonna take responsibility. And then they need to stay in it in order to get out of that. How do people manage that if they're in a relationship with a narcissist?

I don't know. I think they gotta get out.

That's the only solution, huh?

That I can think of. I mean, I'm not an expert in narcissism. I've never had any success. But I tell you something. So there's not very many therapists who can successfully treat narcissism. a very special person to be able to do that. 99% of therapists will get nothing done, but there is something that does reliably help narcissists.

What's that?

Being in a genuine love relationship. That actually diminishes narcissism.

So tell me, what do you mean by that? Not being in a relationship with them, but being in a relationship with someone else?

If they are in a relationship where they truly love the other person, It's not that they just see the other person as a source of narcissistic gratification. The other person is not just someone to be drained, that they truly love that person.

But a narcissist would never do that, right?

It happens. It happens. Really? Yeah, psychiatry has been more pessimistic about personality disorders than we should be. And borderline personality disorder is another example. In the past we've been very pessimistic. Now we're extremely optimistic and we think, oh, borderline personality disorder, there's an enormous potential for improvement. I hope someday we'll get there with narcissism, but it's more malleable than we thought.

Really? Yeah.

But not through treatment, it's through life. See, what's at the heart of narcissism is radical insecurity.

Massive insecurity.

Yeah.

Huge insecurities.

Right.

Massive wounds. And they don't feel like, what? They don't love themselves.

No, they don't. They feel that they are utterly unworthy. They might not be aware of it, might be unconscious, but that's what it is, that they're utterly unworthy. And so there's this hole inside of them they're constantly trying to fill, and they fill it with other people. And that's why it's so horrible being with them, because they're just sucking out of you trying to fill this hole. The thing is, though, that if something real actually happens, like they do have a real relationship, Even graduating from college or getting a good job diminishes their narcissism because suddenly they're not desperately empty. Interesting, but wouldn't it never feel enough?

Like, well, I don't deserve this. I've got this great person in front of me, but I'm not worthy enough of deserving this. So I'm gonna sabotage it. I'm gonna suck, I'm gonna blame them for everything still, but how I feel. That's what I went through.

It is not fun. Yeah, yeah. I'm not an expert in this. And as I said, what I'm talking about studies that look at statistics. I would agree with you though, I think there's some narcissists, it's not going to work.

What's the difference between a narcissist who feels like they don't deserve, they have a massive wound versus someone who just feels unworthy who's not a narcissist? Yeah. So like me and you growing up.

I know.

Yeah. Who wants to suck the life out of people and blame everyone versus is someone saying, I know I feel unworthy, I'm responsible for these things.

Yeah, it's a question of where the pain goes. The narcissist puts the pain outward on others, right? Because I think they're unconscious of their unworthiness. A person who is aware of their unworthiness, pain goes in. Wow. And people tend to like them because they're always trying to please others.

They are, yeah, that was me. That was me trying to say yes to everything and then resenting it later.

Yes.

It was like, yeah. That's fascinating.

But those people tend to be more successful in life, right? The narcissists are kind of alone and miserable because nobody wants to be with them, right? The guys who are always trying to please people, well, they get depressed.

They get taken advantage of, yes. So what do you see for the future of the brain, dopamine and creating happier, more fulfilling lives for ourselves when it seems like, and the statistics are showing that life expenses is actually dropping, at least in the USA over the last, I think, five to 10 years, it's actually dropping now, where access to foods and things that are unhealthy for the body are making needing these addictions more and more, cigarettes, whatever I mean, alcohol, plant medicine, all these things that people are doing to feel something. Social media, the phone, the addictions, all these different things. What do you see as the future of where we're going? And if someone truly wants to live a happier, more fulfilled life, what can they do in the face of the next decade of just distractions?

Mm-.

I don't think it's gonna get easier for anyone with the accessibility to addictions, things, access the now gratification.

Yeah. You know, think back to our prehistoric ancestors. Can you imagine going out on a hunt for a woolly mammoth? How much fun that must have been.

Be scary, fun, exciting.

Yeah, like you're with your buddies, like the tribe. you all depend upon one another, you all got a role, it's life or death, you could come home dead, you're gonna bring home meat. I bet that we don't experience anything like that our whole life that was as much fun as that. Related to that, like everyone I started out life poor, as a poor medical student. And now I'm financially more comfortable. and there are things I miss about being poor. Isn't that interesting?

Have you noticed that? I was sleeping on my sister's couch.

For a year and a half.

No money, broke. Eating mac and cheese and leftovers from her.

Yeah.

I didn't have a car, so I'm walking everywhere and just like living by, I don't know, a couple hundred bucks a month.

Yeah.

And there's something about that time that I'm like, God, it was so exciting to see, like, what could I create from this space of nothing?

Yeah, you're strategizing. Little wins are huge. Huge.

Someone said yes to meet with me. It was like all these things.

So as our society progresses farther and farther away from scarcity, we lose those opportunities to have these incredibly big wins that are gonna change our life. And so we overeat on junk food. We spend time with these trivial nonsense pleasures on our cell phones. because the big things are no longer in our life. It's no longer about finding sources of food to survive. It's now about, you know, how many views am I going to get with my latest post? It's not the same thing.

So what can we do over the next 5-10 years as these distractions are going to become more prevalent?

We've got to think about meaning. We've got to think about what is meaningful. So for me, you know, writing books has become so meaningful and it's nice and hard. and sometimes it makes me miserable, which is good. You've got to find something that's hard that will involve failure because that's how hard it is. You can't choose an easy life.

Really?

Yeah.

What happens if we choose an easy life?

We become miserable. We become miserable, bored, fat, sick, diabetic, all of those terrible things.

Do you have a chapter or a place in here that talks about meaning and finding meaning?

That's my next book. That's the next book.

That's the next book, yeah.

What is that one about, the unconscious mind? It's about the unconscious mind, yeah.

And what is the unconscious mind versus the conscious mind?

A lot of people have seen these pictures of the mind as an iceberg, right? Where there's this little teeny part above the surface and huge masses below the surface. That's the unconscious mind. The unconscious mind is responsible for everything that goes on inside our heads. that we don't have control over. Emotions, excitement, enthusiasm, interest. Most people don't think about this. You don't control what you're interested in, you know?

How do, I mean, really?

Do you, somebody like football? Okay, I personally don't like football. There's nothing I can, well, I kind of do, but not that much, but there's nothing I can do to make myself passionate about football.

Here's the thing. I'm gonna challenge you on this and tell me if I'm wrong. I never liked soccer. I played it growing up, and then I stopped playing it when I was a sophomore in high school and I started playing football. And then I was like, I never want to watch soccer. The only time I was interested in soccer was during the World Cup, when I was like, okay, I can get behind everyone going out and watching game and supporting the USA, right? But I never wanted to watch until a few years ago, I was just telling one of our producers here, Mike, that I went to a couple LAFC games, their LA Football Club soccer team, right? Yeah. And I was like, this is incredible, the energy, the experience. I got to know the players and I was like, became interested in the sport of soccer. And I was like, I want to go to more games. So how does that, like, what does that mean then? If I'm not interested, but then I become interested in something. Right.

So we talked about, we talked about this pastor who took a month off.

-Huh.

And boom, the idea hit him.

Yes.

That came from his unconscious mind. He didn't dig it up. Right? It came to him. You went to the soccer game and you were given a gift. You were given the gift of excitement.

Yes.

You didn't work for it. That was a gift for your unconscious mind. And that's why trust is so important, that we have to trust that these gifts will come. We try to squeeze our unconscious mind and force it to give us things. It's going to rebel. We've got to kind of go through saying, Look, I've got a co-pilot. Or maybe I'm the pilot, maybe the other guy's, maybe I'm the co-pilot, maybe the other guy's the pilot and in charge. But it's a realization that you cannot control everything, that you have to be open to gifts that come from the unconscious mind.

So it's kind of like being curious about life. I think I'm gonna try this thing, I'm gonna check this out and see how it makes me feel.

Yeah, can I tell the story I wanted to tell?

Yes.

So I did this TEDx talk, right?

Yes.

And it's a big deal. Yeah. And I practiced- Four years ago, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I practiced that every day for a month.

That's great.

Great to meet you. Thank you. Thank you. Every day for a month. Every single day, well, five days a week. When I went to work, first thing I did first thing in the morning is I ran through that speech. All right, so I get there, we do a dress rehearsal, get up there, and I'm giving my speech. I draw a blank halfway through. Nothing. I'm sweating over here.

Dress rehearsal.

Dress rehearsal. I got nothing. And I'm terrified. And there's a dinner that evening and I skip the dinner. I go back to my hotel room and I'm memorizing, memorizing. So now it's the day of the thing and I'm about to go out and I realize, I say, look, I didn't shirk. I wasn't lazy. I did everything I could. and it wasn't enough.

Wow.

And so I said to my unconscious mind, We're all in this together. Be a pal and help me out. You know, I acknowledged that I didn't have control.

Ah.

And I was happy with how it went. My unconscious mind came through for me.

That was great.

But it came through for me as a friend, not as a servant. I didn't order it, I asked it.

So what happens to people who are extremely controlling in their life versus people that are more in surrender?

Yeah, those controlling people don't do well. Really? And a lot of times, you know, the unconscious mind has a sense of humor. You know, you know about the Freudian slip, right? Yes. A lot of times the Freudian slip will reveal a truth that you were trying to hide, but the unconscious mind says, tough luck. Yeah, you said this. Yeah, yeah. So, people are always trying to be in control.

The unconscious mind is constantly sabotaging them.

So, the unconscious mind is in control? We share control. We share control and we need to.

Work as a partnership.

It is a partnership. And if you try to be the tyrant, like the people who are very much in control, the unconscious mind is going to mess with you.

So, what is the conscious mind versus the unconscious mind? The conscious mind is what every thought I am thinking or saying in this moment or what does it mean really?

Yes, the conscious mind tends to think rationally. you know, it thinks logically. It figures things out. The unconscious mind is very much about words. And it's funny, you know, the Greek word for words is logos. That's where we get logic from. So words and logic are very much connected. The unconscious mind doesn't use words. It uses feelings. It's about emotions. It's about a gut feeling. And people who have a good relationship with their unconscious mind they rely a lot on their gut feeling. So they'll see someone and they'll just have this gut feeling and they'll trust it. And that's their unconscious mind delivering them information.

Really? Yeah. Because what does the conscious mind try to do in every situation?

Well, let me give you an example. Think about the last time you said, let me sleep on that. Right? When you say, let me sleep on that, that's an acknowledgement that your conscious mind can't work its way through the problem.

Or it might react or the unconscious mind might react if I- you- need your unconscious mind. Okay.

So for example, think about making the decision about where to go to college. There are too many variables for the conscious, right? So you visit all the different places and at some point you go, this is the right place for me.

And you don't know why. There's something within your unconscious mind that just has a feeling.

Yeah.

So where is the conscious and the unconscious mind?

Like physically?

Where is it?

Yeah. It's embedded in the brain circuits of the brain.

But the mind is not in the brain. Is that right? Where is the mind? It's like, is it in the body? Is it around the body? Is it inside the brain? Where in the brain is the mind?

Right, right. So, right. So as a scientist, I'm going to say that the mind is simply the activity of atoms and molecules in the brain.

Interesting.

Because that's all a scientist can say, right? As a human being, I don't believe that.

Sure, sure, sure.

Right? But that's metaphysics. That's beyond what we can measure and touch and bang on and experiment on. That's metaphysics and scientists shouldn't talk about metaphysics.

So there's physics within the body, right? Yeah. There's metaphysics which is beyond.

What's quantum physics? Physics. Okay. Physics. It's straight up physics. So everything in the universe is made up of two things, bosons and fermions. Okay.

Okay.

What are these things called? Quarks. Quarks? Those are fermions. Okay. Yeah. Fermions are what make up matter. So quarks are fermions. Quarks.

Electrons are fermions.

Bosons are fermions? Yeah, yeah. Protons, well, yeah. Bosons are energy. So photons, which carry light and radio waves, those are bosons. Okay? So we got bosons and fermions. Anything that's not bosons and fermions, like souls and mind and divinities, that's medicine.

Consciousness, right?

I don't know.

That's not part of photons and these other things.

I don't know.

Right, something else that's not seen. Maybe. That's not measurable.

I mean, materialists, Crick, I can't remember his first name, co-discoverer of the structure of DNA, Francis Crick.

Okay.

Watson and Crick discovered the big thing. Anyways, he's a strict materialist. He does not believe anything beyond bosons and fermions. And he wrote this book called the Astonishing Hypothesis. And he said, the astonishing hypothesis is that you, your memories, your feelings, your hopes and your dreams are nothing more than a vast assembly of neurons made up of molecules and atoms. As Lewis Carrol's Alice might say, you're nothing but a pack of neurons.

So where does the soul, the mind.

A fair number of scientists, especially neuroscientists, are strict materialists.

Interesting.

And they will not admit the existence of anything beyond atoms and molecules. They say, no soul, no mind.

No soul, no mind.

No soul, no mind.

What's your belief?

I believe in souls and minds.

And where do you, I guess, if you're going away from the scientist's point of view, where would you say the mind is?

Well, I think that once we move away from that, we don't need to talk about space anymore.

Gotcha.

I don't think the mind would be localized.

It could be everywhere. It could be anywhere, is there a saying?

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Interesting.

Yeah, it may not make so much sense to talk about it as being in a particular location. You know, like in the old days, I don't know if this was like the 19th century, they did this crazy experiment in which they weighed someone right before they died and right after they died to find out how much the soul weighs.

Wait.

Right? Because the soul would leave their body at two ounces. The soul weighs two ounces. And you know, nowadays we say, well, that's silly. So I think that when we move away from science to faith, we're working in a completely different paradigm.

That's crazy. Because there's so many times where people, you know, I'll call someone and they're saying, I was just thinking about you.

Yeah.

And why does that happen? You know, it's like, why are these connections beyond just the brain, you know, from the mind or the. Yeah. Now we're going beyond this book here.

But it's interesting stuff.

It's fascinating. Is this anything that you tap into, you work on or research, or is.

It more, you know, it's pointless to research it. People have tried, and they've tried many times because it is so fascinating, but it can't be captured. It cannot be captured. And people who have faith would say, yeah. Yeah, you know, you're not gonna put God in a box.

Right.

Right?

He's not gonna- Can't explain it.

Yeah, and plus, if there were a proof of God, there'd be no longer any faith, right? Because you would be forced to believe in God. Like, you have no choice but to believe two plus two equals four, right? In some ways, you're a slave. You can't choose. If we could prove the existence of God, we'd be religious slaves because proof would eliminate choice. And so what religious people say is that assuming God exists, he would not create a universe in which you could prove him because he wants freedom for his creations.

Do you prescribe faith to your patients? Do you say, do you see people with some faith or as healthier, happier brains and mental, I don't know, capacities?

Yeah. Well, you know, asking about spiritual beliefs is part of every standard psychiatric evaluation. Just like asking about diet and exercise, we ask about their spiritual beliefs.

And what are the ones who are more depressed or seem to have more extreme mental illnesses? on the spectrum of spiritual faith.

Doesn't seem to be a connection between the two.

Some of them might be strong faith, some might have no faith.

Yeah. In general, extreme hardship does drive us to a more spiritual orientation because it just forces us to look beyond the physical reality.

Because you may not find a meaning or reason in the logical world, so you have to see beyond.

Yeah. Now, to me, it makes sense that people with strong spiritual believe should be mentally healthier. But that has not been proven. Really? What has been proven is that people who attend regular religious services are happier and mentally stronger than those who don't.

So it's the attending of a ritual, a community.

That's what it is. It's the community, it's the people.

It's everything. It's feeling a sense of peace for an hour, you know.

It's the people because people who are spiritual all by themselves, which is a very important part of spirituality, they don't get the boost. The boost comes from the community.

Really, based on all the different patients.

You'Ve had in the- Or I didn't do these studies. I didn't do these studies, but smarter.

People than me did the studies.

Yeah.

So showing up to a place for an hour a week with a community in a spiritual practice, a religious practice.

Tends to make people happier. Yep. So you would probably get the same.

Benefit from the pickleball league.

Right.

Just showing up once a week to like a community activity.

Yeah, that's it.

That or so.

It's disappointing we haven't been able to prove that spirituality leads to better mental health. I think it does. It ought to, but we can't prove it. And I think that that's just the way it is with metaphysical stuff. It doesn't lend itself to the scientific method.

What else do we need to know? Is there anything else you think we need to be sharing or talking about that? would be valuable for people today?

There's so much molecule of more. You know, the one thing I was hoping we would get to was the question of love.

Yes. Oh yeah, 'cause we were, I talked about it then I think I distracted you. So you're saying narcissism is love.

Well, I talked about falling in love can reduce narcissism.

Okay, so tell me about love.

You know, I want to talk about a mistake people make with love.

Okay.

Okay. Because there are two kinds of love. There's dopaminergic love and there's here and now love. And they're very, very different things. And people get the two confused and it can cause serious problems. So I wanted to make a distinction between the two. Perfect. All right? Dopaminergic love is the kind of love we experience when we talk about falling in love. It's a sort of insanity.

It's a rush.

It's a rush, yeah. Some people, and I agree with them, call it the most intense, most pleasurable experience we can have in life.

But then there's a crash. Yeah, it comes when there's a decline at some point.

There's a decline. It doesn't have to be a crash, but there's always a decline.

And with the decline, does it become an expectation hangover or like a... Yeah.

So, dopaminergic love, we might call it passionate love, it only lasts for about a year or two. All right? And then it goes away and you're no longer, when you're in love, all you want is to be with the other person. Exactly. Yes. You know, they're a god or a goddess and they make your life perfect and you feel like you've never, all you want is them. When that comes to an end, they lose their divinity and they revert back to normal human status. Wow. And what a lot of people do is say, ah, I thought this was the one. They're not. I need to go find someone else. because I'm no longer in love with that person. And that's a mistake because what happens is that passionate love never ever lasts, but it can evolve into something called companionate love. And that's the here and now love. We talked about how dopaminergic happiness is about excitement, enthusiasm, and that's what it feels like to be in love. Here and now happiness is about fulfillment, contentment, satisfaction, serenity. And that's here and now love. That's what passionate love can evolve into. And in some ways it's better. And so I think that, you know, our society, we romanticize passionate love, right? Movies are all about falling in love. You don't see couples who have been together 20 years. and have this enormous level of comfort with one another, right? When you're in a companionate love relationship, you have this sense of trust. There's someone that you know will always have your back. No matter what. Your life is deeply entwined with theirs. And that is a wonderful, beautiful thing that I think our society doesn't appreciate enough.

Yeah, they want more the rush. They want the feeling of falling in love. and it always goes away.

Yes.

And so then they leave the relationship on the next one to feel the next dopamine hit, I guess, right?

Yeah, that's right. I had a patient who is a salesperson, top salesman in the country in his company, very dopaminergic, and he would just jump from one relationship to another. And he must have gone through hundreds of relationships.

No way.

And one day he came to me with a big smile on his face and he says, oh, I'm all better. I overcame my problem. I'm married. I'm like, what? And there was this girl he had been dating for a couple of months and he persuaded her to fly to Las Vegas and get married.

And it probably ended in the next day.

Oh, it lasted another month and then it was over.

No way.

Yeah, because it was just, there was no foundation. No foundation. He was solving in a dopaminergic way. He wasn't really growing his here and now circuits.

Oh man, so he got divorced. Yeah.

Oh man.

Yeah, it's all about creating that foundation. That's huge.

And it's all about understanding that being in love is a temporary phenomenon and that it needs to evolve into something stronger and more long lasting.

Beautiful stuff. I'm loving this, Daniel. Anything else we need to share, you think?

There's a lot more. There's a lot. Can I give you one more thing?

Give me one more.

All right. So we talked about the dopamine desire circuit. That's what makes you want stuff. That's what gives you pleasure. That's what drugs hit, sex, food, all that stuff. There's another circuit that involves the frontal lobes.

What is that?

The most recently evolved part of the brain, the dopamine control circuit. The dopamine desire circuit says, I want it now. The control circuit is also about the future, because all dopamine is about the future, but it's about the longer term future. it's about planning, it's about working with abstract knowledge. So the desire circuit says, I want that donut. The control circuit says, you, know what? We might be happier right now if we eat the donut, but 10 years from now we'll be happier if we don't eat the donut.

And what's that called again on the front?

We call it the dopamine control circuit. The technical name is the mesofrontal circuit, or the mesocortical circuit.

Okay.

But that's not We call it the dopamine control circuit.

Okay, cool.

So, you know, when you talk about people who are very strongly dopamine, they can look very different. So someone who has a strong desire circuit can be hedonistic. They're going out to clubs, picking up girls, and drinking a lot of alcohol. The person with a strong control circuit is the workaholic who's spending all day and all night in the office making long-term plans for the future. So, you know, most people think about dopamine, they think about the desire circuit. But dopamine is all, and that's the hot circuit. But there's a cold dopamine circuit that is passionless and looks to the future and is merciless.

Right. Just works nonstop all day.

Yeah.

Wow.

So that's the other thing I wanted to throw out.

So where should we be in there?

We need that. Very, very powerful.

We need both of them.

Yeah. I mean, we need the control circuit to moderate the desire circuit.

Yes.

Right? We need, so it's a dance and there's many, many parts. partners. And we need to be aware of all the different partners.

Man, so much to understand and dive into. But the book shares a lot of this and more, the molecule of more, how a single chemical in your brain drives love, sex and creativity and will determine the fate of the human race. Powerful book. Make sure you guys get a copy if you want to understand this chemical in your brain more. Where can people follow you, Daniel? How can they connect with you and support you. You've got this book. Are you on social media as well?

You know, I'm working on starting a YouTube channel, Ask the Psychiatrist, in which I'm going to answer just questions that's great. Ask me anything. Not up yet, but soon. danielslieberman.com if they want to be aware when it's live.

Perfect. danielslieberman.com for the book and also for the next book on the unconscious and conscious mind A couple of final questions for you. This is a hypothetical question. Imagine it's your last day on earth, many years away from now. You get to live as long as you want to live and you create everything you want to create in your life. You share with the world, you make books, you do everything you want to do. But for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your work with you, all of your written work, your audio, video, the content you've created, it's got to go somewhere else when you die.

Die.

It's got to go with you or somewhere else. But we don't have access to it in this world. But you get to leave behind three things that you know to be true from your life experience, three lessons that you would share with the world. What would you say are those three truths for you?

I would say that the key to happiness is living in the present moment. That you are not alone inside your head and you better get to know your unconscious partner if you want to have a fulfilling life and that life should not be about you. It should be about what you can do for other people.

I love that. Service is a big one for me. That's on my list as well. living a life of service. I want to acknowledge Daniel for your drive, for having the molecule of more inside of you to want to research, want to obsess, want to serve your patients to help people heal and improve and understand their conscious and unconscious mind, the dopamine circuit that's driving them, and for educating us on this information. It's really powerful and I think a lot of people are suffering because they don't understand how their mind and how their brain works for them specifically. So I really acknowledge you for being on this journey of service and creating in a powerful way. It's beautiful.

Thank you.

Of course. And I hope just next time I see you, hopefully you're up to a seven or eight on the worthiness and self-love journey.

I'm going to work on that.

Yes, exactly. My final question for you is what's your definition of greatness?

I think it is how much happiness you create in other people.

That's a good one. Daniel Lieberman, thank you man. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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And pace that works for you. That means you don't have to put.

Your life on hold while earning your business degree.

Instead, enjoy learning your way and earn your degree without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.

Going up. Prices keep going up these days. It feels like being on an elevator that only goes up. Going up.

But not at Metro. We're pushing the down button.

Going down. We've lowered prices. Get one line of 5G data for $40, period.

That's 20% lower.

And you get a free Samsung 5G phone when you bring your number only at Metro. Five-year guarantee on eligible plans. Exclusions apply. See website for details. Not available at Metro with T-Mobile in the past six months. Tax supplies.