How Faith, Neuroscience, and Meaning Work Together | Arthur Brooks

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Your brain is designed to ask all the big why questions on the right and then to solve how-to and what questions on the left. And the reason people are depressed today is because they're avoiding the big right-side questions. The whole culture of technology and hustle and grind and online presence is all about staying in the left hemisphere of your brain. That's the reason that people don't know the meaning of their lives.

He's a Harvard professor, international keynote speaker, New York Times bestselling author. He spent the past two decades studying and teaching the art and science of happiness to millions of people, Dr. Arthur Brooks in the house.

Here's what's crazy about when you're living in the wrong side of your brain, because you're living in the matrix, you're living in the simulation of ordinary life. Your great-grandfather never came home and said to great-grandma, I had a panic attack behind the mule today. Never. It's laughable.

How could someone start going to the right side of their brain to find more meaning and purpose in their life rather than stress and chaos?

Yeah. So to begin with, We have two kinds of dilemmas as human beings. We have complicated dilemmas and complex dilemmas in life. Two kinds of problems. Complicated problems are the how-to and what problems that we're dealing with all day long. Like, how do I get from Orange County to Los Angeles, which I was dealing with this morning, right? Or how do I, you know, how do I, you know, think about the next 5 years of the School of Greatness podcast, which we were talking about. Such an interesting, complicated problem. How-to and what problems? But those aren't the problems that you care about, because what are we really talking about? We were talking about your babies and your marriage and your faith. Those are complex problems which are impossible to solve. They're easy to understand, impossible to solve. You only live with them. And the reason is, believe it or not, these two types of problems are processed in different hemispheres of the brain. This is a theory called hemispheric lateralization, which is a fancy way of saying the right side and the left side do different things. The left side does complicated problems like, how do I get to LA? How do I build a toaster? The right side says, why do I love my wife? Who's God?

What's the meaning of life?

What's the meaning of life? The mystery and the meaning. And you'll never come to a conclusion. And part of the reason is because that's not how your brain is designed. Your brain is designed to ask all the big why questions on the right. And then to solve how-to and what questions on the left. And the reason people are depressed today is because they're avoiding the big right-side questions. They're not even asking meaning questions because the whole culture of technology and hustle and grind and, you know, online presence is all about staying in the left hemisphere of your brain. That's the reason that people don't know the meaning of their lives. That's this whole book. How do you find the meaning of your life? It's go to the right side of your brain. How do you do that? That's the challenge.

How could someone start going to the right side of their brain to find more meaning and purpose in their life rather than stress and chaos?

Yeah, so to begin with, most people don't realize that that's the problem, that they're using their brains in the wrong way, not the way that our brains have not been designed. And again, whether you believe in God or not, our brains have unambiguously been designed with two halves. For a reason. The why half and the what and how half. And, and they don't realize that the— our culture, our technology, our economy have ruled out the why half systematically over the past 2 decades. So I'll give you an example of this. You know, I started seeing this when I, I, I was out of teaching for a long time. I went and I ran a company for 11 years, and I came back in 2019 and it was a different world. And when I left academia in 2008, academia was happier than the rest of the world. People are falling in love and they're making— remember college? Sure. Falling in love, making friends, exploring big ideas, figuring out the world.

Yeah.

Having your mind blown.

Yeah.

2019, triple the rates of depression, double the rates of anxiety. Why exactly? So I start asking them and they start talking about meaning. It's like, I don't know what I'm meant to do. I mean, I'm going through, I'm studying this, I'm doing that, and trying to get a good I have a great job, but my life feels meaningless. And saying my life feels meaningless is the best predictor of depression and anxiety for people under 35.

Saying that.

Saying that. That's the predictor. So then you start talking to them and figure out how they live. And it turns out that life dramatically changed after about 2008.

Social media?

Yeah. Well, social media, but devices, the screens, the technology radically changed it. You talk to young people and they're like, it's like I'm living in the Matrix.

You know what's interesting you say that? Not to cut you off here. I saw a video recently, speaking of being on my device, but I saw a video talking about a guy who's probably in his 40s, probably around my age with, I don't know, 8, 9, 10-year-old son having a conversation. And he said, "You know what our punishment used to be growing up back in the '80s and '90s? Staying inside." I know. "Not being able to go outside was our punishment." And the son was like, "What do you mean?" I know. I want to be punished for me because I want to be on my phone or computer or on like video games all day.

We're living the punishment voluntarily. Here's the weird thing about it. Here's what's crazy about when you're living in the wrong side of your brain because you're living in the matrix, you're living in the simulation of ordinary life. Your great-grandfather, like great-grandpa Howes, never came home and said to great-grandma, I had a panic attack behind a mule today. It's laughable because his brain was working the way it's supposed to work.

They might have had hard days and stress, Yes, but not this type of stress.

And here's the weirder part. His moment-to-moment life was actually pretty boring because he was behind that mule. But his life wasn't boring. A lot of young people today who are living in the matrix, living in the left hemispheres of their brains, moment to moment they have zero boredom, but their life is grindingly boring. Yeah. See, that's the thing. There's the microboredom and the metaboredom.

Interesting.

And that's the way to think about it, to say, have I eradicated boredom from my life, but my life is actually boring? Then you know you're on the wrong side and you'll never find meaning until you break out of that.

Because no one's actually bored anymore, is what I'm hearing you say. Because we solve the problem. They can find, you know, all day long getting a dopamine hit on something, watching something entertaining or funny, or what's next, or gambling, or whatever it might be, some type of hit that they don't allow for space, right, to listen to what they're meant to do.

I have a colleague at Harvard, a guy named Dan Gilbert. You ever had Dan Gilbert on the show?

I haven't, but I know that.

You know him, right? Yeah, he's the world's leading expert on boredom. He's a visionary social psychologist. He's the best in the business. And he's done these experiments where you bring people into the lab, young people, like undergraduates, they do anything for $20, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And he makes them sit in a room where there's nothing on the walls, nothing to do, completely silent. They have one choice besides sitting there quietly, whether they have a little key fob with a button on it. If you touch the button, you self-administer a painful electric shock. I don't know how he got through this to the internal review board, right? Eh, ooh, right? That's all they can do. Because he wants to know whether they choose boredom or shocks, boredom or pain. A quarter of the women shocked themselves. Wow. Two-thirds of the guys.

It's like, I can't take it anymore, give me something to do.

That's all you need to know, men and women, right? But altogether, more than half the people gave themselves pain over boredom. We solved the boredom problem. Your iPhone is the solution to your boredom problem, your device. The problem is that it makes your brain work wrong because when you're never bored, you don't use what's called the default mode network set of structures in your brain. And you won't find meaning. You'll be in the wrong side of your brain all day long. And so if you wake up and the first thing is your phone next to your bed— big mistake— and you look at your phone, then your brain is programmed to that for the rest of the day. And so you're looking at it while you're having your coffee and breakfast, and then you go to work, which is in your guest room, which is a Zoom screen, and then you're gonna date by swiping right, right? And then your friends are, a lot of them, mostly on social media. And then you do a lot of gaming because, you know, that's how you get your sense of fun and accomplishment and connection. And then you're 12 hours a online. And guess what you don't have? There's one thing— that's a simulated life. That's The Matrix. That movie was popular— I'm going to shock you— years ago, right? 20— 27.

1998.

1999.

I know, right?

I know, I know. But that movie said that there was a great artificial intelligence, a mechanical artificial intelligence, that was subjugating the human race. It was sucking energy out of them in the form of attention, keeping them in these pods and giving them a simulation of real life that was pleasant. And the reason that there's a rebellion against that is because Neo, Keanu Reeves, wants meaning. Lewis, we're in the Matrix, and the one thing you can't simulate is the meaning of your life. And that's what's actually happening.

So how do we start to simulate the meaning of our life?

We got to live like Granddad Howes, right? Now, the first thing that we need to do is get clean. The first thing that we need to do is to actually break out of the addictive cycle, like a cleanse. Yeah, like detox actually is what it comes down to. And the problem is, you know, you can't just recommend abstinence because, you know, if somebody asks you, "Dude, I drink all the time," you're going to say, "Stop drinking completely," obviously. But you can't do that with your technology because you can't get into your bank account and that ship has sailed completely, which means you need moderation. It's a much harder thing to do. But there's a lot of data, there's a lot of research, neuroscience research that shows how you can actually moderate your device use that will revolutionize your relationship to devices. You can solve this problem with basically 3 steps: tech-free times, tech-free zones, and tech fasts. That's all you need to do. And the tech-free times are first hour in the morning, meal times, and last hour at night. Yeah, that's all you need, just those tech-free times. Why? Because of the neural programming that's going on first hour of the day, the, the, the neurochemistry of what's actually happening while you eat which is that you're looking into other people's eyes while you're having a conversation. We're evolved to do that over the last 250,000 years since the beginning of the Pleistocene. Homo sapiens have actually communed with their kin while they shove pieces of yak meat into their mouths around the fire.

They put it in there. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

If you see your phone on the table, it cuts off the neuropeptide that is occurring to bond you to others called oxytocin. You cut the oxytocin flow by looking at your phone. Literally, there's experiments that show this.

So what you said, first hour mealtime, and it was the last hour. Last hour.

Last hour, because that's when you should be communing with your babies and your wife. And also, you don't want to interrupt the functioning of the pineal gland, which, which, as you know, melatonin, etc. You won't be able to wind down, you'll be stressed out.

So that's the times. You said zones.

Zones. There are certain zones. This is physical zones. Number one is a bedroom. No devices in the bedroom. And you don't just say, I'm going to stop scrolling, leave it downstairs plugged in in a closet and take a book to bed. I get crazy idea. You got two things, a book and an alarm clock. Nuts, right?

The challenge is I listen to the Hallow app at night. That's the challenge.

No, it is.

It puts me to sleep. And it's like in the morning too, I listen to it.

I know. And so you got to figure out a way to get around this. And there are ways to do it with notifications off, etc. And then the second zone is there shouldn't be a classroom in the world from kindergarten through PhD that has a phone in it.

I don't understand how teachers could teach today. I don't know how teachers can do it. Well, you know, allowing kids to have a phone at their desk—

they weren't really teaching when I was a kid either, but still.

But it's even harder now.

And I feel like there's 27 states that still don't— that have completely unfettered access to telephones in public schools. It's craziness that we do this, and it's complete lack of will, of imagination, and, you know, moral will on, on the part of politicians and educators for sure. And then the last is tech fast. Everybody should have— I recommend spiritual retreats to people all the time, you know, Buddhist retreats, Hindu retreats, Jewish retreats. I go on a Catholic retreat 4 days a year, silent retreat, no devices. Oh, it's, man, it's like magic. It's a total cleanse.

Yeah, I've done it a few times where I've put— gone on vacation and I've left the phone at home.

It's hard.

First time was like What do you do? I was like, how do I get to the hotel? How do I get my car? I was like, I don't know.

I know. It's like your brain doesn't work.

The other day was such an adventure. Yeah. Did you like— I just stopped at a gas station and asked for directions. How do I get here?

It was like, I know.

Oh, man, I know. The 1990s again. You know, it's like, let's go.

I feel like Lewis and Clark. And so the other day when that big Verizon outage— you just— were you aware of this? I was in New York and I came out of it, you know, taping a show and my phone didn't work. It was the SOS thing.

Like, what?

And I had to call an Uber and get to the Newark airport and fly back to L.A.

How'd you do it?

And so I had to find a Wi-Fi network and actually call the Uber. And there was no phone calls and there was no text. And then I got to the airport and got on the plane and there was no Wi-Fi on the plane for 6 hours.

What do you do?

I had the monkey on my back. I felt like I was like, I was like, what do I do?

You have to be bored. I know. You have to be on a plane and read a book or—

I was like a heroin addict detoxing in jail or something. I know. Sweating. So that's really helpful. The first day is hard. The second day is easier. The third day is good. The fourth day is bliss.

It's like I never want to go back.

I know. 40 days, right? 40 days. So these are the 3 things to do. The first thing you do is you get clean and you get clean by doing those 3 things. And then you start living in a new way that systematically opens up the right hemisphere of your brain. That's really what my research is about is the 6 ways you can do it. And I mean, again, it's, it's in a way it's gimmicky. Because there's 6 big ways that you can do it. But if you do this in 6 months, you'll know the meaning of your life.

100%.

Yeah.

We're talking about your book, The Meaning of Your Life, which I think a lot of people are struggling to figure out these days. And I'm curious because you are such a devout— what, you've been 45 years, you've been all in on Catholicism.

Yeah.

Right. 45 years.

Yeah. I'm practically a cradle Catholic.

Right.

Because I'm 61. But yeah, so people can do the math. Right.

So you've been doing this for a long time, all in. You go to mass every morning, 6 a.m., or almost every morning, you know, maybe once in a while you miss or something, but you're like in it.

Yeah.

But you're like best friends with the Dalai Lama. Yeah. And other spiritual leaders. And you actually invited me to go.

I know I invited you. I wanted you to go.

Next time we'll go. Please. And so how do you navigate being all in as a Catholic, believing what you believe, but being very close to other spiritual leaders of other faiths that don't believe what you believe at all. How do you commingle, find connection, and not judge others' beliefs, but also be close with them and find fulfillment and meaning from those relationships and those spiritual practices as well, which are different or maybe aren't in alignment with the Catholic faith?

Yeah. So it's one thing to think that you're right. It's something else to think that somebody else is wrong. And we want to solve every problem. The left brain solution is always, let me figure it out. And once I figured it out, then I know that this is right and everything else is wrong. I have a right brain orientation toward my faith, which is I believe that this is what God wants for me. I don't know what God wants for others. I don't know. And I can't know. I believe that people— that God puts people in my life for a reason. I believe that you and I met for a reason. We met at a thing in Idaho. It was awesome. I'm like, oh man, I feel like I've known this guy for years the first time I met you. There's a reason that you meet people, that people are actually put into your life. And for you to adjudicate that on the basis of whatever beliefs that you have, that's hubris a lot of the time. You know, it's God put you here for a reason, for me to learn and grow. And the Dalai Lama, boy, oh boy, he told me, I want you to be a better Catholic. Really? I want you to be a better Catholic. Is what he said. Really? Because he believes that that's God's will for my life. That's what he actually believes. And I learned so much, you know, from my Hindu teachers, from my Jewish teachers, from my Muslim teachers, people that I've talked to that have made me so much stronger in my own faith. I believe my faith is what God wants for me. I don't know what's right. I don't know. I just know that I believe that this is right for me. And I'm not a universalist. You know, good. I mean, I want everybody to be Catholic. I want everybody to go to Mass with me. Absolutely. That's the world that I want. But that's not the world that I find. And I believe that there's a reason that I'm finding the world that I am.

But isn't part of the Catholic faith to preach the gospel and invite and recruit, but convert others to Catholicism, to the faith?

Yes. And there's different ways to do that. There's different ways to be a missionary. A one good way to be a missionary, like I teach at Harvard University, which is not known as a big Catholic institution, right?

But Boston is, isn't it?

Kind of, except, you know, it's the Northeast. It's post-Christian, man. The way that I actually, I bring people closer, I believe, to my faith is by how I live my life and the excellence that I bring to things.

But is that enough? Just being a good person?

I think that that opens the door because people will see. There's two things to do. Be impeccable and great at what you do and have people know that you have a strong belief. That's really important. So people watching this are like, Lewis is on a spiritual journey and he's going to Catholic Mass and he's unbelievably the— literally the best in the world at what he does. That's missionary work right there. That's the mission field, right? I mean, it's like it's a Mormon missionary told me this one time, a guy I worked for at the RAND Corporation. I was a military operations research analyst early, early, early on in my career. I was doing math modeling for the Air Force, and this guy was an old-school applied mathematician. He was Mormon and, uh, Latter-day Saint. And he told me about his mission in, in France. I said, you're a missionary in France? Because they all go on a mission, right?

2 years. Yeah, yeah.

And, and I said, how many people do you convert? He said, precious few.

And there's a lot of French, you know. Yeah. And he doesn't speak the language. He has to learn the language while he's there.

Yeah. And, and, and he said— I said, so how did you How did you, you know, maintain a good attitude about it? And he said, I would say, Lord, have them not shut the door all the way, because he figured out that his job was getting the door open an inch, and his beliefs were that God would do the rest.

Wow.

So here's the thing, people— you meet people at different points in their own journey. You're at a different point in your journey. I'm at a different point in your journey. A lot of people watching us are at different points in their journey, and all we can ask them is to not close the door completely, to open the door 1 inch. And if we believe what we say we believe about God and his goodness, God will do what he's supposed to do in their lives. Our job is to not close the door. And if you go in and you say, repent or die, door's closing, right? That's going to close the door, not open the door. Your excellence will open the door.

How do you navigate in your soul and in your mind that if you're with the Dalai Lama or another spiritual teacher or anyone who's on their own journey of life, that if they don't convert and baptize and become Catholic, like they're not going to heaven, essentially. Like, how do you understand? How do you reconcile with that, knowing that you care deeply and love this person and you want them to live a beautiful life here and after here? How do you navigate that world?

Well, part of that is that there's a kind of a— there's a fundamentalist version of that that a lot of people learn in the United States, which is literally, if you're not this, then this, right? But the truth is that Catholics in particular, they don't believe that. I mean, there's a lot— we believe that there's a lot, a lot of people going to heaven who are not Catholics or even Christians. On the contrary, they have a different set of experiences from different parts of the world, and they're implicitly baptized effectively. And they have a lot to teach us. You know, what that says is that if you were raised as a Catholic, then the standard is different for you. The obligation is different for you. The, the woe be unto you if you're not living up to it.

Right.

But that the Dalai Lama has a, you know, has a— there's a— God had a different plan in the Dalai Lama's life. And there's a, there's a different trajectory for what he believes. And so I think that it's, it's fair to say that there's a lot of ways to interpret that. And it doesn't have to be literal in this way.

Do you think it's possible for someone to find meaning without having some type of faith or belief in God?

Yes, I do. And that really comes from this idea of transcendence, which is one of the 6 ways of finding the meaning of your life, is transcending yourself. My path isn't the only path to meaning. It isn't. Now, religion is really, really good for this.

Yes.

Spirituality is really, really good for finding meaning. But what you really want is to transcend yourself because, you know, left to your devices, you're going to be in the psychodrama. Me, me, me, me, my job, my car, my money, my— so tedious, Lewis. It's so boring. But Mother Nature wants you to be the star of your psychodrama. I mean, think of all the dreams you had last night. You were the star in every one.

Yeah, it's like, ah.

And one of the great truths that we find in all of the experiments in social psychology— if I can get you to think about others and stand in awe of something bigger than yourself, you will find meaning. Why? Because that's what illuminates activity in the right hemisphere of the brain. You'll start using your brain in a more meaningful way. There's two ways to do that. One is to stand in awe of something greater. Our mutual friend Ryan Holiday, right? He talks about Stoic philosophy. Yeah, that's a great way to actually be looking down at, or looking, standing in awe, uh, walking in nature before dawn. The Hindus call that the Brahma Muhurta, which means the Creator's Time in Sanskrit. Without devices, Yeah, let the sun come up as you walk, to, to start a Vipassana meditation practice, to listen to the fugues of Johann Sebastian Bach, to do what you need to do to stand in awe of something that's not just my little psychodrama, right? The other way is to transcend yourself by serving, serving other people. So one of the weirdest things is that we always want to serve ourselves, but when we're induced to serve other people, then meaning Meaning pours into the vessel that is your life so much. And you've told me about this. I mean, you've been doing this. People watching the show, they don't know all the service stuff that you're actually engaged in. And you think, well, Lewis Howes, what a great guy. Truly, truly is true. But, but it's also you need it. You actually need it to feel fully alive. I'm—

every day I wake up and I just say, thank you, God. Thank you, God. And I really reflect on the beauty, the abundance, the relationships, the health. The opportunities because they weren't always there. Yeah, there was times when I didn't have those things, right? I really suffered for years and decades. I had an internal suffering because I was thinking of self so much, right?

Oh, it'll make you suffer, baby.

Suffering. Why me? Why this? Why that person? Why am I experiencing this? Why me?

Me, me, right? Right. No.

And I had a big wake-up call around 30 where I was like, man, I am a selfish egomaniac. You know, I wasn't really— I was still a happy guy.

I was giving.

I wasn't—

yeah, I wasn't.

But like, to myself, I was like, I'm beating myself up constantly, focusing on myself. Sure, I was still giving and adding value to the world. I wasn't— and I was like loving and happy and joyful outwardly, but inwardly, I know I wasn't.

No, no, because you're doing something that's good. So this is, this is a distinction that William James, the father of psychology in 1890, he called the me-self versus the I-self. Human beings are, you know, the Homo sapiens advantage neurocognitively is the existence and size of the prefrontal cortex. That's the bumper of tissue behind your forehead. That's 30% of your brain by weight. That is the supercomputer of the ages. There's, you know, AI is never going to come close to that. It just isn't. I mean, people who say that it's going to become more human now, the prefrontal cortex does amazing things. Among other things, it allows you to be two people and time travel.

Isn't it fascinating?

Oh, it's amazing. So you go, you think about, you know, I did that thing and I feel I really regret it. And what if it had turned out differently? Then the present would be different. You're practicing to be better in the future. Yes. By time travel. I think I'm going to do this tomorrow, but maybe I'll do this. Maybe I'll do this. You know, you and I were talking about all the cool things that are happening in your business and 5 different things that could happen in your business. We were time traveling 5 years into Lewis Howes' future.

Imagining the world.

Exactly. And then we come back to the present and say, Which one of the paths do we want to take? That's time travel. It's amazing how that works. We also can think about me looking out or me looking in to understand myself. William James said the more time you spend in the me self looking in, the less happy you're going to be. And the more time that you spend in the I self— you need both because you got to know what you're doing in the world and what's going on. But you also have to understand your place in the world.

Yes.

So you need both. The problem is that Mother Nature wants you to think me, me, me, me, me. Happiness comes by looking out at the world. I had this really interesting experience with this guy who did, um, uh, physical therapy for me because my back hurts a lot. My— that's wear and tear, man. That's, that's like, kids, when you're 61, you'll understand. And, and, but he's the— a beautiful person, and, and he was a loving person. Physical therapists are funny because you've noticed that the best ones, they're full of love. Sure. And that's their actual super strength. Yeah.

Listen to you.

And okay, they want to know you. They want to heal you. Yes. Is what it comes down to. And this guy was a classic. He did acupuncture and physical therapy and he was really helping me with my back a lot. I said, you know, you have, you have, you have crazy gifts and, you know, how did you get here? He's a young guy, he's your age. And he said, oh, it's a long path. I said, tell me more. Because now I'm a behavioral scientist. I want to know, right? He says, Yeah, no, I used to be a fitness influencer. Really? He says, yeah, I was selling my body. I was selling pictures of myself, my shirt off. Yeah, uh, diet plans, exercise routines, etc. And he said, I realized I was just completely— I was miserable. He said, I hadn't eaten what I wanted to eat for 10 years.

Chicken and rice every day.

Because you got to— he's trying to stay at sub-10 body fat. Uh-huh.

So hard.

Under— yeah, 10% body fat, either you've got weird genetics or you're unhappy. Yeah, I mean, I got weird genetics, right?

You train hard.

Yeah, I mean, I could stay at 7, but that's because of my genetics, not because I'm making myself miserable, because nobody wants me to take my shirt off on the internet.

So you should though.

That would go viral. Put it on.

Anyway, so Huberman did it, it exploded the internet.

I know, I know, he broke the internet. But I know But somebody took a picture of him and he allowed it to be posted. But probably, I don't know. But, but, you know, he said that he realized that he was thinking about himself too much. He needed to fix it. So he's a smart guy. So the first thing he did is he's got rid of his social media accounts. Step 2 is he enrolled in physical therapy school so he could serve others, learn something new. The third thing he did was— this is gonna blow your mind— he took every mirror out of his house.

I love that.

Every mirror gone.

I was just thinking about how mirrors, that invention of mirror, has probably ruined awful human psychology.

I know, because it basically, it torqued I-self, me-self. Yes. And then, and then, and then he showered in the dark for a year so he couldn't see his abs.

You didn't see the water rushing down. It's like, look at my abs.

Yeah, but he couldn't see it because he was so attuned to criticizing himself and belittling himself.

Shaming himself. Yeah, that's what is this little fat? I gotta eat more, I gotta, I gotta whatever.

Yeah, the me self does this to you. Wow, it makes you crazy. It makes you completely nuts. So the whole point is that you need to look out more. Look at that self-transcendence. Standing in awe, serving others puts you into the I self, and you find the meaning of your life because your brain works right. So this comes from the philosophy, the theology, the neuroscience. It all works together. Yes. You want to find the meaning of life? Stop looking at yourself.

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I started building a business. I started pursuing these things. And 5, 6 years later, I'm 28, 29, 30, and I make my first million dollars and I'm building a little personal brand and I have some influence and I'm like, making a name for myself in this online marketing world. And I feel like I'm the most miserable I am after about 5, 6 years of this because I was like so focused on me, right? And more.

And well, there was also another error that people make that really hurts their search for meaning. And it's very common. It's not— it's not— you never cast aspersions for people making this error. This is what I say on my first day of class. I teach MBA students at the Harvard Business School. They want to be unbelievably successful and they're going to be, right?

They want to make millions of dollars. They want to raise a bunch of money. They want to sell companies, all this.

They want to be masters of the universe.

They want to be rich. Power. Rich.

And here's what they think. If I get the money, if I get the power, if I get the fame, then I'll be happy, right? And I say this on the first day of class and it makes them panic. And you're going to see why, because you're a striver par excellence. I say, go for the happiness and I'm going to teach you how, and then you'll be successful enough and the rest doesn't matter. But you know what makes them panic? What? Enough. Because at the Harvard Business School, there's no such thing as enough. And for all the strivers who are like, why do you watch the School of Greatness?

You want more?

Because there's not enough. And I admire strivers. I admire strivers. But this is the key thing, and this is what you were experiencing. If you think that the money and the power and the honor, but mostly the money for what you're doing with direct marketing, right, and all the stuff that you were doing, you thought that that would bring you, that you would arrive at some level, that first million dollars would help you arrive at some level of happiness, some level of peace. But now look at your life. Your life is full of love. You have a friendship with God. You have a, you have a, you're living with, you're living with your guru. Yeah. You got your babies.

It's crazy, man.

We're the future you. That's, that's really the, the source of happiness and makes you successful enough.

Yeah.

That's the beautiful thing. That's what people need to actually focus on. And that's what will happen when you take the mirrors out of your life.

Yeah. Whether that's literal mirrors or, you know, other metaphoric mirrors, like notifications on your— exactly. Because, you know, or your view counts or whatever it might be. Because I remember reflecting at this time, I had a kind of a big breakthrough and of like maybe over a 3 to 6 month window of the, my life during that time where I had it all, but all my relationships were falling apart. Business relationships, I was with a girlfriend that was falling apart, friendships, like things were falling apart and I was at the center of all those.

Yeah. Yeah.

So in the beginning I'm like, this person's doing this and she did this, he did it and they don't. And then I go, oh, but it's all happening. I'm at the center, right? I'm the common denominator.

The me self was saying something is happening so that I'm not being loved enough. The I self says I need to go love more.

And that's what I started doing. I said, I went through my own healing journey around that time. I started opening up about the different things that I was going through from childhood sexual abuse and other things that I've talked about.

You were very public about that.

Yeah, very public. And I realized I need to serve more. I was like, I felt my first big calling was like, you've got to serve those that can't serve themselves. And I thought about what is something that's meaningful for me. I struggled in school my entire life. I struggled at learning. Sitting in a classroom reading textbooks. It didn't work well for how—

are you dyslexic? Very. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I was always in the bottom of my class. I was always like— and they used to rank us on our grade cards back in the day. I don't know if they still do it. So I was always in the bottom 4 from middle school through high school. And I just struggled and I just felt like, man, I'm never going to be smart enough.

You felt stupid, right?

Very stupid every day. Not enough. Stupid. The way I learned was through sports, through mentors, through coaches.

And because you're super athletic. Yeah, I mean, you're a professional athlete.

I leaned into that and I was like, okay, I can find value here. But I, I was like, I need to start serving. What is the thing that I care about? I care about education and I care about kids. Yeah, because I struggled as a kid, right? So I said, I need to find ways to serve children to have education. And that's something I did. I launched my first school with an organization called Pencils of Promise. It was 14 years ago. And I don't know how many schools I've built over the last 14 years and brought others to serve and travel the world. In these communities and seeing the joy of these children having a place to go to learn. At least I had a school, you know, even though I didn't feel like it worked well for me, I had somewhere to go. Yeah. So many kids that don't have that. And I'm— it's something I'm doing through this mission now instead of just selling something to make money. I was like, how can I build something that serves? How can I do both?

And yeah, and it was intensely satisfying. Intense because it just jams you into the I self.

Yes.

You're loving outwardly.

Constantly.

Notwithstanding anything that comes back.

Exactly.

Without expectation of return.

Yeah.

That's what we're built to do. Serving.

The more I think about that, how can I continue to serve at the highest level, use my gifts and talents and serve people at the highest level? It's the most rewarding feeling.

I know. I know.

It's the most rewarding feeling.

That's transcendence. It is. That's what people want. That's what they— that's what they need. But Mother Nature and the current environment and the culture and the technology will force you away from that. And that's why we need to live in a very propulsive way. We need to live in an entrepreneurial way where we're living the startup of our own lives, doing something that, you know, people, people are very, very, and very positively interested in a lot of content on the internet that, that and urges them to do uncomfortable, hard things, right? I mean, all the bro podcasts are out there like, grind it out harder, work harder. And tons of dudes are like, yeah, give that to me. I mean, it's interesting because Jordan Peterson, my friend Jordan Peterson, I mean, he's very, very, very successful giving hard advice. Yes, giving really hard advice. And I understand why, because people have this, this sense that there's something bigger, there's something better. They're looking for meaning. And so they're willing to walk towards something that's incredibly uncomfortable. By the way, this is a second avenue toward meaning, is understanding suffering.

Do hard things?

Is doing hard things, but understanding suffering. Because when you understand the way that suffering actually works and you're no longer resisting it, you will find meaning. Your brain will work right, is the bottom line. And that's what a lot of people are grasping toward. A lot of young people on the internet are grasping at this, this kind of thing. And that's the kind of thing that we're talking about here, that when you're doing something that's an uncomfortable thing, it's a morally uncomfortable thing, it's an emotionally uncomfortable thing, it's a spiritual uncomfortable thing, or yeah, it's a cold plunge or whatever, right? You're doing this thing, so you're exploring the space, you're transcending yourself, you're exploring the space of actually non-resistance towards suffering.

Yes.

And you're saying, I don't know why I feel better. Because the right hemisphere of your brain is illuminated and you have an understanding, an inchoate understanding, a wordless, ineffable understanding of the meaning of your life.

I mean, you work with a lot of high achievers. I feel like a lot of people that watch and listen to this show, they're consciously trying to achieve something greater in their life. That's why they're here. And I love this kind of speech that I heard Jim Carrey give. I think it was at the Golden Globes one year where he said, "I'm two-time Golden Globe winner Jim Carrey." And if I can become 3-time Golden Globe winner Jim Carrey, then I'll be enough. It's like this kind of anecdote of like, I know how many—

he was making a joke and people laughed.

They laughed.

Yeah.

But it's like, how do you know what I'm talking about?

I do. I know. It's very— he's a very profound guy.

I want to interview him.

So he's a very— I bet he would. Hey, Jim, come on the show.

I know. I want to be on the show. I think it'd be fascinating. But I love his thought process around that. And I'm sure he struggled many years because he never maybe didn't feel enough for a long time.

But I think he's— I think he's talked openly about his struggles, actually. Yeah.

And there was another interview he did where he said he was going to retire a few years ago, and someone said, no, you can't retire, like, you're too talented. The journalist was saying, like, please don't retire. And he goes, I'm going to say something that most celebrities will never admit to. And he said, I've done enough, I have enough, I am enough. And most celebrities will— won't admit to that right now. Easy for him to say at his age and his career, and it's not You know, it just gets harder and harder, right?

It just gets harder and harder.

That need for validation, that need for being in the game, being talked about.

The more famous you are, the more famous you need to be. Gosh, the richer you are, the richer you need to be. That's just— and the reason is because you're, you're on the hedonic treadmill. There isn't enough. There isn't enough in the world. It's these rewards, these worldly rewards. This is what St. Thomas Aquinas, he called the world's idols. And the world's idols are the things that beguile you, and they have a kind of a divine feel to them, but they lead you away from what you truly want, which is the mission and meaning of your life. They lead you away from it because they look like they're gonna bring you to it, but they actually don't. So they're like drinking salt water. The more that you drink, the thirstier you get. And actually every single one of all the strivers watching us right now, and you and me, there's one that beguiles us more than the others. And if you have information, if you have knowledge about which is yours, is your idol, you got power. You want to play What's My Idol?

What's your idol?

Yeah, I want to play with you.

What's your idol?

So let's find out. Let's find out. So kids, you can play along at home. I played—

who knows what's your idol?

So I play this game with my students because if they know their idol, they have power. Your idol is what will always lead you astray. And when you look back to the times of your life where you suffered the most, it's because you were beguiled by that idol the most. And it's always one of four things: money, power, pleasure, or honor. And honor means like internet famous, credibility, or something. Yeah, prestige, admiration of the right people, or admiration of lots of people. Success-addicted people who get famous when they're young, they seek the admiration of strangers. That's the honor idol. And we can talk about that one because that one's super dangerous.

What was that third one?

Pleasure. Pleasure, money, pleasure, money, power, pleasure, honor. Those are the four. Now, this comes from Aristotle via Thomas Aquinas in 1265 and his Summa Theologiae. He was an unbelievably adroit behavioral scientist way before his time, and all this stuff that we're talking about here has been completely validated by modern neuroscience and behavioral science. Okay, perfect. But it was the 13th century.

It's crazy.

Okay, so here's how it works, Lewis.

Here's how— what's my idol?

So what I'm going to do is I'm not going to ask you what it is. I'm going to ask you what it's not.

Okay, before we do that, what is the idol of most Harvard Business School students coming in? What is most of their— is there—

they think it's money, and it isn't.

What is it?

We'll see.

Okay, okay, okay. Gosh.

So we're gonna take the idols away, and one of the reasons is because this is an elimination technique that's the most accurate way for you to figure out all kinds of things in life. This is cognitively a very powerful technique for finding something. So I want you to look at these things and I want you to get rid of one you care about the least, which doesn't mean you don't have it. Doesn't mean you don't have it. What it means is you have the population average, which, you know, you take away money, for example, you're the population average in the United States. That's pretty darn good. But the problem is this, you're not extraordinary in it, which means it sucks if it's your idol. Gosh. Okay. So money, power, pleasure, fame. Which one do you get rid of first? Which one do you care about the least?

What if you feel like you have all four? Because you do have all four inside it because you're Mr.

Big and of course you care about all four of them. But which one would you— could you take away most easily? I can make a prediction for you already of what's not your idol. Power means influence over other people.

I guess power would be the one because I'd rather have honor than—

yeah, I don't want to look with your honor is kind of power. No, no, no, no.

It's kind of respect.

It's like, oh, power is influence over other people so they do what you want. Now, how do I know that about you? Yeah, because you're highly intelligent. Yeah, you'd be a CEO of a big company right now, and you're not. You're running an enterprise that's an idea enterprise. It's not on a skeleton crew. I mean, there's a bunch of people around us right now that are doing good work, but the whole point is you'd have a big company, you'd be running a big public company, and you'd be the chairman and CEO. And Lewis Howes could absolutely have that gig. Yeah. If power were the thing. Okay, good. So you got 3 left. So money, pleasure.

I already know what— I already know what my—

what's that? Well, let's eliminate a little bit more.

Okay.

Which one do you get rid of next?

It gets harder. I feel like— gosh, this is interesting because I was just telling Martha last night, I go, you know, I could live in a 2-bedroom apartment and be fine.

Yeah. You know, it's actually not money.

Yeah.

I mean, money's great.

I like having it like as a security, I guess. But I don't—

the thing is security.

I don't buy stuff.

Security isn't— security isn't a money idol. Yeah, security is a pleasure idol.

Yeah. Okay.

What it is, is if you— and one of the things that people my age, they'll say, well, I can't— I'm not motivated by pleasure. How often do you check your stock portfolio? Every day, right? Yeah.

So I don't— every day.

Yeah. And so comfort, security, and feeling good are all the same idol.

That's interesting because money, I know it's not— I mean, listen, I'm a driven business entrepreneur that needs to make money to pay for people's lives and my livelihood. But I just— I turn down money all the time.

Yeah.

Like, the reason I know it's not my idol is because I get sponsorship and deal offers all the time to pay me. I'm like, no, I don't want to. I don't want to make money to do that.

I get it.

And so for me, it doesn't mean I don't want lots of it, but I want to do it the right way.

I get it. And It's nice.

It's nice.

It's nice. But the 2-bedroom apartment wasn't—

I was living the dream in a 2-bedroom.

It wasn't a lot worse than a huge house.

Living the dream. And I had less things to manage.

Yeah. No. And when you—

I'm grateful for my home, right? But I was— I get it. Still living the dream.

Okay, we've got number 2 is gone. Now it gets real hard because there's 2 left.

Pleasure mean versus on.

Pleasure means there's 3 things that pleasure could be. Number 1 is feeling good. Feeling good. Number 2 is comfort. Number 3 is security. That's the pleasure idol. And then fame is— there are very many different kinds of fame. One is, you know, they're internet famous, which, yeah, they're— which, by the way, you are. There is prestige in the, in the eyes of the right people, and there's the admiration of people. Those are different kinds of fame, but they're all the same model.

And so what's the difference between pleasure and honor?

Pleasure and honor is— honor is the reflection of other people's feelings toward you. Pleasure is how you feel. Man, so you got to get rid of— that doesn't mean— I know you want both.

Yeah, yeah, but I want to feel good and I want to—

and you want other people to— you want other people's feelings about you. You care about everything.

Yeah, yeah, I want to feel like—

so you got to get rid of one of them. What really is motivating you more? And again, this is not that— this is not to live a life of vice and— yeah, yeah, no, this just means you're trying to find what actually would lead you astray.

The one that I care about the most?

Like, no, no, not the one that actually kind of— the one that drives you a little bit more.

The one that I want more? Yeah. Or the one who I want to— that's less holding me on? Um, I feel like it takes work.

I know.

Yeah, I mean, I might need to dive deeper on this because they're— in some ways I'm working more and more to care less what people think about me. That's why I'm taking the—

you know, you know the reason, right? It.

Tell me.

Is because it's your idol.

Maybe. That's probably— that's probably it. In the last 4 years, I have done so much work, and maybe I talked about this with you when we were at the mastermind, where I've had to create so many boundaries with influential people, billionaires, celebrities, or just everyday people that want things or that expect something from me, right? They expect me to be the good guy that always delivers, that's like willing to do whatever it takes to help them.

Yeah. The fact that you're concerned Yeah. Indicates that you're self-aware. But that is the tendency.

Yes.

Here's the deal. When you were a kid, when you were a kid, you learned something about yourself. Yeah. Which is that you got attention and affection when you did stuff.

Yes.

Right. And you felt crummy about yourself when you didn't— when you weren't able to do so. Why? Because you were— you had a learning disability which made it hard for you to do things, made you feel crummy about yourself. Yes. But then when you achieved, especially as an athlete, that adults gave you attention and affection. And what you learn from that is that love is earned. You learned that love is earned. That's actually wrong, by the way. Martha doesn't love you because of what you give her. She loves you as a grace. Love is a free gift, freely given. Yeah, it is. Yeah. The problem is that when you wire that in, when you have the programming as a child that love is earned, you will become a success machine.

Yes.

And the success machine has to understand whether or not it's functioning. And how do you know it's functioning? Because the points on the board and the points on the board comes from the affection of strangers and the admiration of other people and the viewer numbers and the bank account. That's an honor idol.

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Yeah, for sure. And you're working on it.

It's important. And it's going to be a lifelong journey, I'm sure. But it's— it was— and it was scary the moment I started to say, I need to create boundaries with all these people, right? And get on the phone and say, you're not a good friend, and no, I'm not going to do this for you. And take the reactions and know that they might talk bad about me and know that they have a different viewpoint of me. And like, the grieving, the loss of that, like like clinging on to that idol was scary. Yeah, for the last— for 2, 3 years ago.

Yeah.

And so I don't feel it as much. Like, sure, I want to like look good in the eyes of other people, right? But not at the detriment of my own happiness, right?

And here's the point— that's great. Yeah. The point is, in your weak moments, you'll snap back into the honor idol.

Hopefully not.

Well, I mean, there's— we're all weak.

Yeah, of course.

You know, it's not like you're gonna go on a binge.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, of that, you're not gonna become a monster because you're not a monster. But the whole point because that self-knowledge is critically important. Here's mine. Yes. I would get rid of power. I was a CEO. The thing I hated most about being CEO is having power over other people.

Okay.

When people called me boss, it bummed me out. And the reason is because I hate people having power over me. You always admire the people who have your idol. And so if you look at a politician who kind of admires demagogic tyrannical despots in other countries, it's because that's what he wants. Right. You always admire— if you know somebody who admires billionaires, wants to be a billionaire.

Yes.

That's what I admire is the richness in their life.

Okay.

Power. I don't even like it, let alone have it as an idol.

Okay.

Number 2 is money.

So we have the same—

I've had it. I haven't had it.

Yeah.

Number 3, I would get rid of— I would get rid of pleasure because I actually am a pretty austere guy. Comfort is not important to me. I get up before dawn every single day, including Sundays. I work out every day. I love— bring pain.

Yeah, right. I'm in that place too.

My problem is the same as yours, man. Really? I mean, I want the admiration of strangers. Love is earned. I got the attention of adults when I played the French horn as a little kid. That was when I felt special. That's when I felt like—

then you were saying, yo, and then teacher.

And so the result is that I'm a success addict. And, you know, I'm, I'm a self-objectifying success addict. And the result is that, you know, the— my worst moments, Lewis, are when I, I, I spent the 14th hour at the office looking for the admiration of strangers, as opposed to the first hour with my kids when they were little. And they grew up. I wanted to be special more than I wanted to be happy. Wow. And, and that's my weakness. And consciousness of this has allowed me to take my life back. And when I take my life back, I understand what the real meaning of my life actually is. That's why everybody needs to play this game.

What is the real meaning of your life?

The real meaning of my life is to love and be loved. The meaning of my life is to lift people up and bring them together in bonds of happiness and love using the gifts that I've been given, which is science and ideas. That's what it is. But I can't do that when I'm just trying to get applause.

It's like, hey, why do so many smart, intelligent people sabotage their own happiness?

Because they're in— well, there's a couple of different things going on. They'll leave this, so they'll leave their happiness on the table, and then there's some that will actually sabotage their own happiness. And those are two different problems. Number one, many strivers will, will forego happiness because they actually know what they need. I was, I was interviewing this woman, uh, in my research who's a billionaire. I mean, in finance, iconic in the industry, my age at the time. I was in my 50s at the time. And she was confessing to me that she was horribly unhappy. She said, I got everything I wanted, but I'm unhappy. I said, well, talk to me, sister. And she says, well, my husband and I were like roommates. I'm cordial with my adult kids. I think my employees are afraid of me. You know, I'm not taking care of myself the way I should. I drink too much. I'm not going to the gym. I used to be religious when I was a child. It gave me so much joy, but I never even practiced my faith. What should I do, Professor? And I'm like, you don't need a Harvard professor to tell you. You just gave yourself your own prescription. I mean, go away with your husband, get to know your kids, step back from your firm, go to AA, go back to church, do your thing. And she said, I know, I know, I know, I know. I said, so why not? And she thought about it and she said, "Because I've always chosen to be special rather than happy." See, here's the calculus. Any loser can have love relationships, but not everybody can build a company. People will— Homo sapiens, we're weird, dude. We will choose specialness over happiness all day long.

Can you be special and happy at the same time? Of course.

Of course. Except there are sacrifices in your specialness that you need to do what every other person can do because we are built to love each other. We are built to love our kids. We are built to, to, to, to serve our marriages. We're built to do that. And that's— it's not special because everybody can do it. And here's the thing, most people would look at you and say, man, if I had Lewis Howes' money and prestige, then I would actually be happy, but I can't get it. So okay, I guess I'll do this dumb thing. I'll just take my kid to the park and play ball. That's the secret. And because they feel like they can't be special, then they choose the happiness and they have a good life.

But here's the thing. Probably 80 to 90% of the world has the ability to be happy because they're not special. And yet they're still not choosing how to be happy. Yeah, they're still not leaning into— they're still the life that I have. I have a good life, but I'm still not happy.

I know. I know.

I'm missing the special.

I know.

So they have it and they still diminish it because they don't have what they're unsatisfied with, what they actually have.

And so they want that thing and they don't get that thing. They're frustrated about that thing. And they're also all missing the opportunity to do the things that they need to do. And that's— there's a lot of desperation that goes into that. I wind up talking about that an awful lot in just my general work on the science of happiness. Yes. But when it comes to the struggle to striving and this paradox of striving, this is your whole audience. Want to know why? Because your show is not called The School of Good Enough.

No, it's not The School of Average.

It's not The School of Okay. The School of Awesome, kind of. You know, it's The School of Greatness. And I really admire that. But you can't sacrifice the love in your life on the altar of what you're trying to do in the world's eyes.

Yes, that's— that's not greatness.

That's not greatness.

If you're— if you're special, yeah, but you have no great relationships, I don't think that's greatness.

Yeah, if you're pursuing money, power, pleasure, and fame, there's a problem per se. I mean, there's nothing wrong with those things, but they should lead you to what you should truly want, which is your faith, your family, your friends, and work that serves faith family, friends, and work that serves. Those will bring authentic happiness.

Yeah. And, and if you— it sounds like what I'm hearing you say, if you focus on your faith, your family, your friends, and work that serves, it may lead you to more money, more power, more—

I got the data. It will actually—

more, you know, honor.

You'll be successful.

It'll be a byproduct, right, of you doing that. And then it'll be your responsibility to not give too much emphasis on that, right? It'll be the, you know, Ryan Holiday, Marcus Aurelius, you needing someone to say you're just a man, right? Like reminding you you're just a man.

That's why you get married.

You're just a man, right? Even when you're this like god or in your own world or something, it's like you need a reminder daily that you're just a man.

Yeah, for sure. And it's going to be taken. It's going to be taken away.

All of it. Your life will be taken away one day.

That's right. You and I were talking about this earlier that a great CEO one time told me who had managed— he was a private equity manager, meaning that he bought and sold companies and he had seen the careers of thousands of CEOs. And I asked him because I was a CEO at the time, close friend, how do I understand the end of my career as a CEO? And he said, there's two ways. You can quit you can quit before you're ready, or you can quit under some— on somebody else's terms. Those are the only two doors. So his recommendation was quit before you're ready. But the whole point is things end. Here's what doesn't end. Love. Love doesn't end. You know, what do you want to be doing on your last day? What do you want people to say at your funeral? Lewis Howes had 5 million miles on Delta Airlines.

That he couldn't use. Who cares?

Who cares? And we all kind of know that. I mean, it's funny because, you know, that was the premise of a great George Clooney movie, Up in the Air, was he was looking for meaning and counting it in airline miles. Crazy.

And then he finally got there.

He arrived. Yeah, he arrived in the middle of a flight, right?

Like, he— the captain came out and sat next to him and said, what was it, like something?

I know.

Like, you got the most points in the world.

The captain sat next to him and he's like— and then it just—

what do you want to know?

He realized how empty it was. His new— his— he's got that George Clooney— what a great actor. He's got that new movie on Netflix, uh, J. Kelly. Have you seen it? It's called J. Kelly. It's phenomenal. It's the same movie as Up in the Air. He's a— he's— he is a movie star playing an aging movie star who's looking for the ultimate role because then he'll— he will have arrived.

It'll be enough.

And he sacrificed all of his his happiness and his love relationships to be special. He chose specialness over happiness. That's the premise of the movie. It's a very, very beautiful movie, actually.

Why is this drug or idol of specialness over happiness seem to captivate most of the world?

Yeah. So, and that's evolution. And there's an actual— we have an evolutionary biological explanation for this. We're born— Homo sapiens are not made to be happy. We're made to be special. Homo sapiens, the brain of Homo sapiens is the same as it was at the beginning of the Pleistocene era 250,000 years ago when all of humanity lived in bands of 30 to 50 kin-based individuals, hierarchical kin-based groups of 30 to 50. And, what do you want? You want to maintain and rise in that particular hierarchy, which is like— and, the way that you do that is with more hunting skills, et cetera. Why? Because you get more food and you get more mates. We're that simple in its way. And that is metastasized in modern society in wanting more internet followers, more Instagram followers, having a lot of likes. That's how we're actually, you know, being rewarded for dragging in a slightly bigger gazelle into the cave. But that explains that milieu, explains so much of our relationships. You know, for example, one of the things that we find in relationships between husbands and wives The reason that marriages fail is because women are not adored by their husbands and/or husbands are not admired by their wives. This is the fuel of happiness in these traditional relationships. And so what she needs to hear because of the evolutionary biology, like she has a huge commitment and investment in raising kids, carries them. I mean, your wife just carried your babies for months and she's taking care of them. They die without her. Right. And so the result of it is that she needs the protector who has a complete commitment to her. And how does she know the commitment? Through the adoration. And so she wants to hear, honey, I would fight a tiger for you with my hands and only you. Right. And what do you need to hear? That is the biggest gazelle anybody has ever dragged into this cave.

Yeah.

You're so big and strong. You're going to feed our family for 2 weeks. And that motivates all of this behavior.

And we go out and risk our lives again.

Again and again and again and again. I mean, like, I do 150 talks a year, public talks a year. And 2 weeks ago, I was in Columbus, Ohio, and I was—

Where I'm from.

It's great. People are awesome.

Cold right now, though.

It's cold, baby. 17,000 Catholic missionaries in the audience.

Wow.

17,000, right? And I was, I was super nervous. You want to know why?

Why?

Because Esther was in the front row. My wife.

Because she was in the front row. You were nervous.

That was why I was nervous. Because I want her to admire me. All I want is my wife's admiration.

Not the 17,000.

Yeah. And so this is the example of how the evolutionary biology, man, it has teeth. And when we understand ourselves in this context, we understand all the things that we do. This is why we go after those worldly idols. Is because we want to rise in the kin-based hierarchy of 30 to 50 individuals, which has been—

now it's billions of people. That's crazy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And when you know that, you got power because then you don't have to be a prisoner of the more of the animal impulse. You can get into the space of your moral aspiration. That's what the amazing human brain allows you to do.

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Yeah.

You've got a lot of great wisdom on marriage and relationships. And in a time where it feels like people are struggling the most in relationships with themselves, but also in intimacy with the, the committed partners.

Right.

What are the keys to having a successful, happy marriage or relationship? And why do most marriages fail?

Yeah. So there's so much on that these days. But the biggest problem that we see is that your marriage is not a problem that you can solve. Your marriage is not a left-brain complicated problem. You're— it's not an algorithm. And our culture has actually told us that we should be able to solve every problem. Right. And, you know, with proper information, we should be able to solve the problem. And when people conclude that when they can't solve their marriage, that something is actually wrong with the relationship. So it's— the approach is wrong. Your marriage is a right-brain phenomenon. You'll never solve it. You only live in it and love in it. That it's a permanent state of disequilibrium. That's what your marriage is supposed to be. My wife might be totally pissed off at me at the end of the day. I know she loves me. We'll have a conflict. I know we'll have a conflict. We'd have 10,000 arguments because of me, because of her, because we're human beings living in this complex relationship. The number one thing is not understanding the nature of living with another person is what it comes down to, and appreciating the complexity of that. And trying to force it into this complicated problem that you can Google, that you can ask ChatGPT. See, we think that those are the things, those, and, and yeah, and that's the wrong kind. In other words, they're dealing with the wrong kind problem. That's number one. Number two is that the way that we've now entered into relationships is through complicated tools. So, you don't just meet somebody and let sparks fly a little bit. It's funny because the way that the human brain is designed for relationships to start is kind of a 4-step neurochemical process. Yes. Number one is attraction.

Yes.

And attraction is largely governed by testosterone and estrogen, sex hormones. Men and women both have both, by the way. I mean, men have both and so do women. Men obviously have more testosterone, women have more estrogen. And that's how you spark, which is why no matter how emancipated and modern you are, you still want to look nice. Yes. And the reason is because that's what actually sparks in the brain about somebody that you want to connect to.

Interest.

The second part is where it gets really complicated and interesting, which is when the neurochemistry actually really starts to flow in terms of noradrenaline, norepinephrine, and dopamine. And that's anticipation of reward and euphoria. So when you're kind of interested in somebody, you have this undue interest in like, I think I'm gonna— I think I just got a text from her. It's a text, who cares? You asked, want to get dinner? And you're waiting for the next— that's because your neurochemistry is really, really hopped up. You got high levels of norepinephrine, which is stress hormone, and dopamine, which is anticipation of reward. Then, when you're falling in love, this weird thing happens, which is that your serotonin tanks by a third. Now, when serotonin is low in the synapse, that provokes the feeling of clinical depression. And, that starts this process of ruminative sadness.

When you're falling in love.

When you're falling in love, it's actually almost indistinguishable from clinical depression. And, the reason is because you're ruminating on the other person. That's why you'll send 1,000 stupid text messages when you don't hear from the person and you're getting digger and digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole. That's because you're doing insane things because your brain is slightly insane because you're bonding to the other person. You ruminate almost depressively on the other person because you're bonding to the other person because you're basically creating kin for somebody with whom you're biologically unrelated, ideally. And, the last is what you want to get to is oxytocin and vasopressin, which are these neuropeptides in the brain. Where actually you are kin and that's your person. This person is part of your tribe. You've actually adopted somebody into your family.

Crazy.

That's, that's a— you and Martha were, and you feel like you've been together forever. That's oxytocin. It's the way that that works. And you want to go 1, 2, 3, 4. When it doesn't work, when, when relationships are askew, it's because they go at different speeds through that neurochemical cascade, or somebody stops after stage 2. That's when things aren't working. Yeah, there's some people who go through them too fast and freak out their other partner. These are people who have hemophilia— not with an H, it's not a blood disorder— hemophilia, which is excessively quickly falling in love. There's a lot of what I teach my students, you know, is about actually how this neurochemistry of actually how all this stuff works.

You got to slow the falling in love process down, I feel like.

Oh yeah, you want to walk through this, not sprint and jump in, right?

Yeah.

Well, and the older you are, the slower it Yeah, if you fall in love in your— people in their 80s will fall in love, but when you're in your— when you're 16 years old, it'll be like 4 days and you're going through the entire process. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's kind of how it works. But anyway, this is how I teach an awful lot about it, and this is a miracle. I mean, our brains are amazing on how this whole thing works. So in modern life, the problem is that we're— with technology, we're torquing this entire process, and it's not working right, you know. I'll give you a classic example. Most dating apps allow you to curate your profile in a way that you're looking for yourself because we're so narcissistic. I want somebody who votes like me. You know, for example, and I'm not going to say which political side it is, but one political side, 71% of people say they won't, they won't date somebody who's not on that political side. And the other side is 41%. So use your imagination anyway. So, but the whole point is that, that we, we curate for compatibility, but the human brain wants complementarity. It wants sexy difference. And, and the applications, what they do— it's compatibility is a left brain solution. Complementarity is a right brain phenomenon. And so all the technology is making us fall in love wrong, so we're not.

I mean, if someone's been in a relationship for a few years or been married for a while and it's not working, right? How do they improve their relationship or marriage?

Yeah, so I have a lot of— my wife and I actually do a lot of this stuff together, but there are a lot of, you know, deep work that you can actually do. But I've got a kind of a break glass thing to think about, actually, believe it or not. There's an algorithm of things that will save most relationships. Really? Some of it's biological and some of it's actually more in terms of learning. So number one is, is, believe it or not, it's eye contact. So most couples, when they're on the rocks, is they've stopped looking at each other in the eyes. Believe it or not, that's characteristic of relationships that have gone cold. And part of the reason is because men in a heterosexual relationship, a man and a woman, the man has stopped talking, looking at his wife or partner when he's talking to her. And the reason is 'cause guys are really good at that. You and I can talk to each other and have a, you know, men when they're together, they tend to look at other stuff. Yeah, they're like talking to each other deeply about things while watching a football game. That's called parallel play. Men have deep relationships as they're walking together towards something side by side, right? Eye contact is not as common and it's actually not as necessary because men have less oxytocin, about a third as much oxytocin. And oxytocin is pumped out when you're making eye contact. Why? Well, the reason is because women get a lot of oxytocin as they lay eyes, have eye contact with their babies. So, when babies nurse, they're looking into their mother's eyes.

It is powerful, man. And that baby's staring at you where they're eating.

You're like, I know, I know.

And they're staring at you.

It's like, stop, what are you staring at me?

You're freaking me out, you know.

And what they're doing is that's pumping oxytocin into mom's brain, which is really important for milk production. So, so this is kind of how the, the biology works. But the whole point is that women get 3 times as much oxytocin, and that's how they bond to people more. And when, dude, when you're not looking at her in the eyes when you're talking to her you're denying her the feeling of love, man. And so the number one rule—

eye contact—

number one rule is never say a word to her without looking at her in the eyes. When you're talking to her, you're looking at her.

Wow.

And she'll be like, I'm happier, I don't know why. That's why. Number two, yep, ABT. Always be touching. Always be touching. If you're with each other, if you're watching TV, you're touching. If you're sitting in church, you're touching. If you're walking down the street, you're holding hands. When you're driving, she's got her hand on your arm. Touch, touch, touch, touch. That's actually more important for men than it is for women because when she, you know, like when you're walking down the street with her and she puts her arm, it's like that's a vasopressin pump.

The man, you know?

I know, you feel like you are like 7 feet tall, but you know, even I feel 7 feet tall. And okay, always be touching, always be touching. Number 3, have more fun. Now, that's important because couples that are on the rocks, they rehearse their grievance a lot.

And a lot of couples therapy is about rehearsing grievances, talking about the past constantly, constantly.

The problem— you talk about problems, you got a problem, you go to therapy, they're going to talk about the problems. Have more fun. Fun makes you forget problems.

Does add more fun into your plate.

Yeah, add more fun. Wash out the dirt in the glass by pouring a gallon bucket of water into the glass, not by looking at the dirty glass and talking about it all day and not by stirring it up.

Yeah, just with a spoon. Pour fun into it.

Right. And last but not least, pray or meditate together. Yeah. The single most intimate thing that couples do together is pray or meditate together. And most couples never do it. I mean, I talked to Catholic couples who've been married for 60 years. You pray together? It's like, oh, that's kind of embarrassing. But you have sex. You're not praying together because praying feels more intimate. And the reason is because One flesh in terms of sex is one thing. One flesh in terms of the right hemispheres of your brain, that's— you're looking into the soul, man. And you're praying in front of God with— in front of each other. It's scary. Do you pray with Martha?

Yeah.

Yeah. And when you first started doing it, I'm not staring in her eyes like— well, no, I mean, you're praying together, but you're praying to God together. And at first it was probably awkward. Very. And, and the reason is because it was intimate. It was the most intimate thing.

And I was also used to kind of praying alone and like doing my own practice and ritual. Now it's like we're doing it together in certain ways.

And that's a really, really super, super deep right brain bonding experience. Yeah, this is the protocol, you know, dudes, protocols. This is the protocol.

Things: eye contact, always be touching, have more fun, and pray together.

That's it.

That should, that should make any marriage last and be better.

Yeah, I know. And I know people would be like, yeah, well, what if there's abuse? I got it. What if there's infidelity? I got it. I mean, I understand these radical exogenous circumstances. What we're talking about is the cooling of the ardor that naturally happens. Yes. And so if there's not these big audacious crazy problems, you're just kind of cold. This is how you get it back.

Yeah, yeah, you're just kind of numb. Yeah, walking through life, going through the motions.

You're basically— your brains are not neurochemically connecting.

With all this information that you have and you've studied and you've taught and you've written about What is the one thing you wish you would have done earlier in your life that maybe you don't regret, but you're like, now that I know I could have done this better with my wife or with my kids or with my purpose or with my whatever. What is the thing that's like, this is the thing I really wish I would have done differently?

Yeah, there are things. There really are things. I wish I'd chosen more happiness over specialness. Really? When my kids were little.

But then you wouldn't have this opportunity you have now. I know you wouldn't have all the books and the Oprah and the Dalai Lama and the credibility and the money and the— you wouldn't have this now. You wouldn't be speaking 150 times a year now if you didn't pursue specialness for those days.

I'd have more love in my life. I would have had more love. And related to that, here's a real regret. When I was in my 20s and it was go, go, go, I wasn't doing what I'm doing now. I didn't get my PhD until I was 34. As a matter of fact, I was a professional classical musician. I was playing in the Barcelona City Orchestra. I was the associate principal French horn. I had a good career. And I wanted literally to be the best French horn player in the world. I was pursuing a career as a soloist. Wow. And I wanted to tour the world. It was a lot of work. But it was also— it meant that I didn't— and not all my relationships were bad. I had some very close friends. And I got married during that time. And Esther's from Barcelona. And so— but the one relationship that I marginalized was with my parents. I did. I mean, I didn't— and my parents were interesting people. My dad was a mathematics professor with a PhD in biostatistics. He was a really, really serious intellectual. My mother was an artist of some renown in the Pacific Northwest where I grew up in Seattle. And they were interesting, intelligent, cultivated, cultured people. And I knew that. I was like, I want to know them more. But, you know, I was in my 20s and yeah, I was living in Europe and the whole thing. And then they died.

Both of them died.

Yeah. I mean, my dad died at 66 and my mom was— she suffered from dementia very early. And so there wasn't— it wasn't the same relationship. It wasn't the same. And then she died at 73. But she was— she was suffering a loss of who she was significantly by the time she was my age and younger. I missed it, and I missed it because my own negligence. And I thought to myself, you know, for a long time, I really— that was a source of suffering for me. Um, how—

when you mean you missed it, was it like you saw them once or twice a year on holidays, like one week?

Yeah, never more than that. A couple days here and there. Yeah, I talked to him once a month or something like that. Yeah, I mean, it was like— it was always cordial.

Yeah, but it was like 20 years essentially.

It was like, yeah, and I'm gonna get to it, I'm gonna get to it, I'm gonna get to it, and they died. And, and, and I, and I, I've suffered about that for a long time. I felt regret about that for a long time. And then I had this realization based on the research. This is your question. I realized I get a do-over and the do-over is with my kids and grandkids. Wow. That's my do-over. And I said, okay, what am I gonna do? And I looked at the work, I looked at the research on this and you know how you do it? You don't visit your grandkids, you live with them.

Home. And so every day you're living—

you had a family meeting. We had a family meeting. Wow. On the basis of this night. And, and, and the family meeting was this. I said to my kids, you didn't know your grandparents very well. You almost never saw them. Um, I'm— I didn't see my grandparents very often. I didn't know my parents very well. I wished I knew them well. It's going to be better for you if we help you with your kids. It's going to be better for us if we have a relationship with our grandchildren. It's going to be better for all of us if we get in each other's way a lot. Let's not visit each other. Vacation should be apart, not together.

Yeah.

And that was entirely based on this behavioral science research. Really? Entirely. I was— I was— and we had a big family meeting.

So you read like a research paper on this?

I read, you know, volumes on this and everything that was written.

What did the research say about—

the research said that you're going to be happier and live longer if you're living around and with your grandchildren. And your grandchildren are going to have greater emotional, spiritual, and cognitive development if they're around their grandparents. And there's going to be a better long-term relationship as people grow old if they have a day-to-day relationship with their adult children. That's what the data say. And so, we have this big family meeting. It's literally better for every single generation.

How old were your kids at this time?

My kids were early 20s, mid-20s, and my kids got married early. My kids are— their rebellion was like going super trad, like super trad. They think me and Esther, we think we're these freaked out hippies because, you know, free will and musicians, man, and the whole thing. We tell them stories about, you know, when we're— and so my kids, you know, two of my kids are Marines, you know, and my two older kids got married at 22 and 23 and started having kids at 23 and 24.

They're like military and marriage early.

Yeah, yeah. And they're all religious, and all my kids are religious.

And you know, when we were in our 20s, we were—

I mean, we were screwing up. And you know, it's like, and we were doing all the stuff you're not supposed to. We lived together before we got married, and the whole thing that the Catholic Church is like— and anyway, so, and, and, and so my kids rebelled by, by being like a Catholic family in 1940. So we had this meeting, I was like, like Rebellion. So, and we're like, these kids are such squares, right?

They're just doing everything by the book.

I know. And so we had this family meeting and we said, here's what the research says, and we all know it's true. Where do you want to raise your kids? Where do you think you can have a good career and raise your kids? And they voted. They voted the Washington, D.C. region where I had raised them, my wife and I had raised them, and they wanted to send their kids to the same schools that they went to. Very, very strong Catholic schools, really good Catholic schools. And so we all packed up moving vans and moved there. Wow. We all— we made a family decision. You know, we literally— it was one van had two families in it, and then the others came from California. And how— and my daughter, who's the baby, she's 22. She's still in the Marine Corps.

So what about the, the son-in-law or daughter-in-law?

They wanted family life.

They wanted to live with you.

They wanted family life. And so we've got one of the families is literally in our house. They're in the bottom floor. We're in the top floor. We have meals, family meals together in the middle floor, and we get in each other's way. I mean, there's like some yelling. Sure. You know, because there's friction in any family. But I'm telling you, man, it's better than not overrated. It is not overrated. I go home, I come home, and my little grandson Joey—

my God, it's like your dad again.

Almost like he's like, I'm changing diapers at 61. And Joey's like, he calls me Yayo because there's a Catalan in Barcelona. The language is Catalan and that's grandfather. And my wife is Yaya, so I'm Yayo. Yeah, you, yeah, you wrestle, wrestle. He's 2 and a half. We wrestle every day when I come home from work. It's unbelievable. Wow. It's happiness.

How do you— I can see how amazing that would be. But how do you, in your mind as a father, say, I need to not take the responsibility of like taking care of my sons? They need to get out into the world and like learn to go hunt themselves and learn to go provide and learn to whatever, do their taxes, you know, and not have like dad still taking care of them when they're 35 or 40?

Yeah.

How do you, in their mind, live together, right, and have this rich, beautiful life together, but also allow them to be the man of the house, right?

And the answer is that you give them these responsibilities themselves. So my sons make really good living. They're really, really successful. They're making money. They're making good money. They're taking care of their own household economically. They're taking care of their own kids. And I'm not telling them what to do. If they need help with something, I'll help them with something, and they always ask my advice, which is crazy.

It's cool.

But I'm asking their advice too.

Wow.

They're helping me a lot. I mean, I was having this like freighted dumb thing with somebody in my wife's family, and I was feeling really, really, really crummy about it. And I called my son Carlos, and you know, Carlos is 25 years old.

He gave me—

he's like, give me really, really good advice. It was beautiful, actually, what he told me, because And people never ask their adult kids advice. They're the best people to advise you because they're future you. I mean, they're, they're, they're you, man. And I asked my daughter who's 22 and a second lieutenant in the Marine Corps at Quantico right now. She's tough as nails, 4'11". Crazy killer of men. And, and I ask her advice and she always reliably gives me really, really good advice. And, and there are certain things that they do that I can't do. They do things that I actually can't do. I'm not taking responsibility off their plate. What we're really doing is a kind of family as a firm. We're dividing and conquering the world together.

Wow.

And they know kind of what the deal is. You know, I probably will die before my wife because that's generally speaking the way that it works. It's God's law. Not entirely.

Yeah.

And, and she will live. She will live in family for the rest of her life. Wow.

That's beautiful.

Yeah. And there will be intergenerational wealth. But the transfer of intergenerational wealth is because we're each other's safety net. It's not so I can even get a boat, dude. The expectation is that you'll leave more than you get and that our family will be able to do beautiful things philanthropically and we'll have goals together as a family. Is it going to work? I hope. And if it doesn't, that's a lesson too.

I've got a few final questions for you. This has been fascinating. We're talking about the meaning of your life. And this is about finding purpose in an age of emptiness. And I think there are a lot of empty people out here today. Again, if you guys don't have this book yet, make sure to grab a copy, get one for a friend. If you know someone in your life who's struggling, going through a down season of life, get them a copy as a gift. They will appreciate it. Let's imagine you in 10 years, 71.

Yeah.

What is the advice your 71-year-old self is screaming at you right now that you're not taking?

Yeah.

That you know it will— I get chills just saying this. I know that you know will pull you to where you're meant to be, whether it's your 71-year-old wiser self who's more connected to God and knows what you need to go through or what you need to let go of. What is your future version of yourself saying to you right now?

Why didn't you stop the things you needed to stop in their time? My 71-year-old self is not going to be telling this, is not going to be telling me today, is not telling me today me that I'm missing opportunities to do more in the world. My 71-year-old self is telling me I'm missing opportunities to love more. And that means I'm not stopping the things, the worldly things that I need to stop.

So what do you need to stop?

Because I don't know how.

Oh man.

I don't know how.

What are the things you think the 71 version of you is telling you to stop? And maybe it's through phases. Maybe it's not all right now.

No, no, it's not all right now because it's right. All right now probably means I got cancer or something, right? I mean, it's like a screeching halt where the car hits a wall. That's usually catastrophic.

But just because you can do 300 days a year on the road doesn't mean you should. Just because you can do this book with the next big celebrity doesn't mean you should. Just because you can teach here. Yeah. So what is he saying that he knows best?

That you missed an opportunity to love your guru and to be close to your guru.

Your wife?

Yes. And the reason you missed that opportunity is because you saw a shiny thing.

You went for it.

And I went for it.

And you're with your wife a lot.

I'm with my wife a lot. We are best friends, but I'm not doing enough. I'm not doing enough.

What would be enough? To be with your guru, your wife more. Do you feel like your 71-year-old self would say? Would just do this.

Yeah, yeah.

Just be like, that's it. You can still go chase these shiny objects because if you're being in service to something greater, yeah, and you'll get the rewards of the idols. But you know, as long as you're in service, it's all good. But that was a good week there. That was a good month. Like, what would he be clapping at and saying, bravo, Arthur? What would he be saying?

Probably there would be a film clip of Mrs. Brooks saying, "Don't you have something to do?" Really? Yeah, probably. "Don't you have something to do?" That would be like— I've never heard that once. I've never heard that once in my life. Never once.

What would it take for you to get that this year? We're at the beginning of the year still.

I know.

Is that even something that you think you should do this year?

It is something I need to do this year.

Is that a week-long Is that a month? Is that a day? Is that 3 months?

That's a cadence. That's a cadence of— and it really starts with the time that you actually have. I mean, one of the— you know, you always hear that you should have quality time versus quantity time. The truth is you need both.

Yes.

With the people that you love, your little babies who are not going to be little babies soon, they're going to be saying words and walking around and pretty soon they're going to have a lot less interest in you. I mean, you'll be the hero. The good news, by the way, here's the crystal ball. You're going to be their hero when they're in their 20s.

I got to wait that long? No, no, no.

You're going to be their hero up until they're 12 and then again when they're 22.

That's good.

No, no, it's good. It's really, really good. Dad, dad's the best. Dad's not the best for this period anyway. So quantity and quality are both really, really, really important. So what it would take, and this is true for everybody watching the School of Greatness, is to be really there. When you're there, to be there more, and then to be really there when you're there. That's what it really takes. Now, let me take a side note. Let me tell you, which you may know or you may not know, why you're so good at what you do.

Tell me.

Because you're here now.

Yeah. Present.

That's unusual. You're looking into my soul. The first time I met you, why did I love you the first time I met you? Because you saw me. You just met me and you saw me. Yeah, that's a superpower. You're super good at that.

Thank you.

And that's what your babies need. And that's what your guru needs.

My wife. Yeah, everyone.

Yeah, that's what they— that's what they— and so the, the, the, the, the mistake that you could make or I could make is to be fully present when we're doing what we do for the admiration of the world and using that super strength for the applause laws of strangers, but not at home, and not bringing it home.

Yeah.

And not bringing it home.

Do you do that sometimes?

Of course. And that's the error I need to correct.

What would that look like this year if at the end of this year your 7-year-old self said, you know what, what you said on the School of Greatness was to really be there with quality and quantity.

Yeah.

And you did it this year. What would need to happen from you to say, I did it I did it just this year.

Yeah.

Not for the next 10 years, but this one year I did it.

It would mean slowing down a little.

So what does that look like? Give me an actual game plan.

That means at least another day a week at home.

One day a week at home.

And by the way, I have already set protocols in motion where I'm always home on weekends. I don't travel weekends.

Plus that.

Yeah. And another day. And when I'm home, I'm home. When I'm home, I'm home.

No one's texting you. Strategizing?

No, because the problem is the cycles in the brain. You know that feeling thinking about the next? Yeah, because it's, it's the castles in the sky. Of course, the school of greatness is a castle in the sky. Yes. Right. Is what it comes down to. And that leads to a whole lot of success. But that is a tremendous sacrifice. And it's a sacrifice borne by the people who love you the most and you. And that's what it's going to take. It's going to take something tangible, like a little bit more of a sacrifice when it comes to being more present physically and also more psychologically, where my right brain is truly open so that my meaning can find me. And that's only happening when you're truly present. Here's the thing that— have you read C.S. Lewis?

No, I haven't read much, but yeah, yeah, C.S.

Lewis has this, uh, I know he is. He makes a point. He's a theologian, and it's really worth reading. He wrote The Chronicles of Narnia, which almost every kid knows about, but, but also very, very beautiful beautiful books about religion. And he makes this observation, which is scientifically very robust. It's a very important point that we spend all our time in the past, in the present, in the future. Right. But most people who are really ambitious are spending all their time in the future. You can't love in the future. You can only love now. Yes. And so if you go home and you're in the future, you're not loving at all.

No.

Love happens right now.

Yes.

And when you've spent your time in the cycles living in the future, you've lost the opportunity to do the only love, to experience the only love that you can experience as a human being.

Wow.

And that's what I don't want to miss anymore. That's what 71-year-old Arthur says. Stop. Fix it.

So what would, what would one day a week look like? Is that picking a day every week that you say this is off and I'm not off?

No, it's just, it's just actually, it's actually having dinner together and being home and, and, and after dinner, you still work? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's like, no problem with that. I mean, she's going to work.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It's not just sitting around waiting.

But it's really— and again, it sounds like I'm really, really, really geared toward my wife, but there's a reason that she's put in my life. She's my partner. She's my partner. It's like— and if you met her, man, she's ride or die, man. It's cool. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But ride or die deserves the very best. And when she gets the very best, then I'm in my bliss and then I'm being the man that God wants me to be.

Yeah, you're not—

that's the state.

You're not in the specialness of the world when you're in that moment. You're not getting an award and on stage, husband of the year. Yeah, but you're not getting the dopamine hit of more idols.

Exactly right.

You're getting more, you're getting love, right? And feeling the presence of—

and I'm a success addict. Yeah, because I have the same childhood that you have. I only got attention when I played the French horn when I got straight A's, whenever I happened to do it. And so I still think that, that points on the board, points on the board. This is why I do my work, by the way, because I want the solutions for myself.

Of course. I mean, I do the show too.

Yeah. It's me search, not research.

Isn't it interesting that your parents are no longer with us, but you're still pursuing the same pursuits to get the attention?

Oh, I know. I know. It's like I ask this all the time. One of my dad's hat, one of my dad would be proud of me. He's been dead 23 years. I wonder if my dad would be proud of me.

What do you think if he was alive?

Yeah, he'd be like, yeah, my son teaches a little school near Boston. He'd be making some sort of corny dad professor joke.

Yeah, sure.

Right. Yeah, he'd think that's cool. He'd think that's cool. But I think about it all the time. Would my dad be proud of me? And this is how we are. And this is a normal thing and it's a healthy thing actually. But you can't be animated by it in a particular way where you're trying and where you're on the hedonic treadmill of more, more, more, more, more. You can't be subjugated to that.

Sad that he wasn't able to watch everything you've done in the last 20 years? Yeah, it's sad for me.

Yeah, yeah, you too.

Yeah. Well, my dad passed 4 years ago. It's sad for me. Well, he was— he also had a brain injury like 20 years ago, so he was kind of like, I guess, maybe similar to your mom. Yeah, he wasn't able to have a relationship with me, right? He didn't have the memory, he didn't have the cognitive skills, and he was kind of like a child as an adult.

He died when you were 39?

Yes, 39 or something, 38, 39.

But when he was 22, he had an accident, died.

He was alive, but he emotionally wasn't available. Yeah. And when I'd see him, which was rare, it was, who are you again? And where did you go to school again? Like, he could talk to you, but he didn't have the— it wasn't him.

I understand.

It's like a different human was in him.

I understand.

And it was a childlike version.

You lost him and lost him in a fatherly way.

Yes.

You still loved him and he still had full dignity, but he couldn't be on his own. The dad— the dad thing was gone. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So he's— so we kind of— so it's been like 20-something years of not having a father.

And you think about him a lot?

I think about him more in the last few years.

Yeah, it's funny.

I got married and have kids. I'm like, dang, he would have really loved this.

Yeah, like he would have really— is your mom alive?

She's alive, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You have a relationship?

Yeah, yeah, she lives in LA.

Yeah, that's great.

But I'm like, he would really love this, like, and he would be really excited, you know.

He would love this.

Yeah.

And you know what, He does.

He does.

Yeah, he does. He's proud of you.

Yeah, I know that.

That's proud of you.

But what do you— how often do you think of your dad?

Every day. Really? Every day. Every day. Yeah. I love my dad. Yeah. Yeah. I wish I knew him better.

What was the last time you had with him? Do you remember?

Yeah. The last time I had with him was when he was dying. He was dying and he got sick. He retired at 62 from his professorship. He wasn't happy. He wasn't happy.

62, one year older than you.

Yeah, exactly.

When's your birthday?

May 21st. I'll be 62.

So he died at this age?

No, no, he retired at this age. He got sick at 64. Okay. And the doctor gave him 15 to 20 years to live and he died in 2.

66.

And he was a biostatistician. And so I said, oh man, that's lousy. And he says, yeah, but somebody's got to be on the left side of the curve.

Oh my gosh, no.

Biostat. Biostat till the end. Biostat till the end.

Gosh.

And, and, uh, and I, I would, I was living in Syracuse at the time. I was teaching at Syracuse University at the time, and I would go back every few weeks. And I got closer to my brother during those years. And, um, and my mom was really sick. I mean, she was really sick. And so she couldn't, and, um, And we talked a lot during that period, and it was funny because he had, I think, a kind of a spiritual awakening during that time too. He was always a serious Christian guy, but I think that he drew closer to God as well, and he was worried. He was worried about my mom. He was worried, worried who's going to take care of her, who's going to take care of her, and he knew my brother. My brother's a good man. My brother is going to take care of her, the whole thing, but by the end he finally said, I have to let go now. I have to let go now.

Of his life or the worry of his wife?

All of it. All of it. And he died. When he let go.

Really? Like the next few days or weeks or something?

Yeah. Soon thereafter.

What was your biggest lesson of witnessing your father's death that taught you about life?

That's a good question. It's a good question. It's that it's that in the act of actually, you know, he— and he wasn't holding on to the same stuff that I'm holding on to. I mean, I have a different kind of life and a different kind of career, you know. I'm doing a lot of stuff that he's never— he had never done before. But that I think that it's pretty healthy to let go even earlier, you know. He was, he was a, he was an anxious person, you know, and, and So am I. And you're an anxious guy too. I mean, we're all tightly wound, right? And letting go was not a tragic act. It was a natural thing to do. And I think we could all—

Exhausting being anxious.

Oh my God.

Clinching on and holding on.

Yeah, holding on. It's like white knuckling your life.

Exhausting.

It's like on the wheel of the car.

There's no peace.

No. And I think about that a lot. I think about, I can let go too, more. And so I've thought about that an awful lot. I haven't succeeded, but I've thought about that an awful lot. And that really was a life lesson.

Yeah.

And he also, when my mom got sick—

how old were you when he passed?

38. Not young, but 38.

Same age for me.

Yeah.

My dad.

Yeah. And he loved my mom. He loved her. He was totally devoted to my mom, and she was sick and she wasn't present because of, you know, cognitive decline. And he loved my mom and he took care of my mom. And that was a great lesson to me that I learned. That I learned that this is it, man. This is it.

This is your life. This is it.

This is it. This is your path.

Oh my gosh. I don't want to stop this, but I got to— I got to bring it to the end here because There's a lot here that I think people can take on, and we'll probably do another episode about a lot of this stuff later.

I would love that.

The book is called The Meaning of Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness. You guys can get it right now. You also have a virtual launch event for The Meaning of Your Life. You've also got a podcast. This is really cool, called Office Hours. I'm glad you're doing this with Arthur Brooks. So, guys, check that out. You can go— everything is at arthurbrooks.com. Social media, Arthur Brooks as well.

There's a website for the book called themeaningofyourlife.com, and they get all the resources for the book are there.

Okay, awesome. But again, if someone— if you felt like any part of this has spoken to you, if you're watching or listening right now, please share this with one friend. Please get the book. Uh, if you feel like something is lost inside of you, if you feel stuck, if you feel like you're not fulfilling your purpose, you're not clear on what that is, or you just feel like you're not getting the most out of your life, make sure you get a copy of The of your life and get one for a friend that you know is struggling. We all have friends that we're trying to coach through life throughout the day that are just really struggling in some area of life. This will give them great stories, great science, and great tools on how to start improving the quality of your life. So make sure you guys get a few copies for friends as well. I've got two final questions for you. Before I ask them, Arthur, I want to acknowledge you for the service you have on people, even though that you're still tied around an idol, and we all are in some ways.

An idol is an idol. Yeah.

But the fact that you care deeply about human beings getting out of suffering or understanding their suffering to have more meaning with their suffering, to find more peace is such a beautiful gift.

Thank you.

So even though you do get to take an extra evening, a day, a week to be with your wife and your guru and your kids and be more present in those ways, when you are out there being present with the rest of us, it really makes a difference.

Thank you.

So I acknowledge you for the gift that you are.

Thank you, Lewis. Likewise.

This is—

much love and admiration. Thank you. Thank you.

This is a question called the Three Truths. Imagine hypothetical scenario. You get to live as long as you want, but it's the last day on earth for you. It can be 100, 200, whatever the age is. You get to live as long as you want. It's your last day and you get to accomplish all your wildest dreams. And you do all the things that your future self envisions you doing. And it's like good and faithful son, everything you did it. But for whatever reason, we don't get any access to your work anymore left in this world. Your books, your content, everything has to go with you. But you got to leave one final message with the world. That was your three truths. Your biggest lessons in life, what would those 3 truths be for you?

Number 1, your life has meaning. That means you have purpose in your life and God created you for a reason. Number 2, the world has a coherence to it. Things happen for a reason. Your job is to figure out what they are. Number 3, happiness is love. Your destiny is to love and be loved. It's the only job that matters.

Man, puts it in perspective.

I hope that all of the, you know, you write a bunch of books, do a bunch of shows. Yeah, I hope it all kind of boils down to that. Yeah, I really hope it boils down to that.

Absolutely.

The three truths. Beautiful question. Thank you.

Final question. What is your definition of greatness?

My definition of greatness comes from the answer to the last question. Which is heroically to love and be loved. To love notwithstanding what the world tells me. No, to love notwithstanding my feelings. To transcend myself and to love notwithstanding all of those things. That's true greatness. That's the man that I want to be. That's the greatness that I think that actually all of us have within ourselves.

Yeah.

And you've made it easier for me to do that today.

Well, man, thanks for being here. I appreciate it.

Thank you, brother.

Amazing. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I wanna remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

There's a fire inside you you can't ignore. Stand still? Not a chance. You're a lifelong learner who's come this far. Now we are here to help you keep going further. Capella University. What can't you do? Visit capella.edu to learn more.