How To Build An Indestructible Mindset That Will Allow You To Achieve Anything

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Father's Day is coming up, and for lots of dads out there, dad doesn't quite cover it. They're groundskeepers, patio Whisperers and Rogue Leaf vigilantes, too. So this year, show dad some love with gifts from the Home Depot. They've got fast, free delivery on handy gear that helps dad do his thing. We're talking Ryobi cordless outdoor tools like the Ryobi 40 volt expanded string trimmer. Find the perfect Father's Day gift at the Home Depot. Shop in store and online at homedepot.com, free delivery subject to availability. What do most people misunderstand about success in general? You're around the most successful people. you train them, what do people misunderstand about success?

I think the thing that people misunderstand about success is they're looking for the easiest way to get there. You know, and it's funny, how many.

People.

Books have you read or I won't say promoted, but had on your show and everybody goes, five easy steps, 10 steps to greatness, eight steps to this. And those steps for success, they're infinite. They are infinite. You cannot count them. It doesn't matter how long you've been doing it, those steps are constantly shifting. You don't know if they're there. Sometimes you have to trust that the next step is going to be there when you can't even see it. and sometimes when you step on that step, you go right into quicksand. But you got to be able to pull yourself back out of it again. So everybody's looking for these steps and there are no steps. Those steps never, never end. And you just can't climb steps. Sometimes you got to crawl though, those steps, and you finally get to the top and everything shifts and you're at the bottom again. That's crazy.

What does that mean? Sometimes you're at the top and then you're at the bottom again.

Well, you may get to the top and you're like, I'm here. And then you look back down and you look up again, you're actually on the first step. You're on the first step again. And where you thought was the top is not even the top. It's the beginning. It's literally the beginning of where you're supposed to be. And that's when most people just quit. I just like, it just drives me crazy because everybody's like, here, Look at, I always, people that I do the interview with, I always like to use them as an example, 'cause people can relate to that, all right? You've been climbing steps for how long to get to here? To get to?

I mean, since starting this, it's been over eight years, but the journey before then, it was, you know, decades to build myself, to prepare myself for this, and now I feel like I'm just getting started.

Right, exactly. So you have just, yeah, right, exactly. So all the steps that you climbed, just to get started. Just to get started. And people don't want to talk about those steps. They don't want to talk about those steps and how difficult those steps are and how many steps that you stumbled on and how many steps you didn't even see and how many steps that people placed in front of you and they pulled them off, pulled away. People that you were very close to, people that you knew, people that you thought that were like, Hey, these people actually have my back, except yeah, they did have your back, but they were actually pushing you down the steps.

For stabbing you. Yes.

No?

And it's funny when you talk about those things, or people talk about it, they seem surprised. But you should know that in that path, all those things are gonna be there. They're going to be there.

It's the obstacles, you know, Ryan Holiday says the obstacle is the way. Do you think that anyone can become a winner? Your book is about winning, the unforgiving race to greatness. Do you think anyone can become a winner?

Winning is in all of us. That's what I always say. Listen. And we have wins every single moment. And those are the steps that get us a little closer to what we want. Every minute you have an opportunity to win. You really do. But with everything that went on in the world in this past year, People forgot how to win. People don't even know what a win looks like anymore.

What does it look like?

Yeah, people don't even know like, and so many times a win just comes by because there's a constant change, there's a constant shift, and now with the paradigm of the way everything is being handled now, you have to look at things completely different. Everybody's waiting for normal, a win doesn't look like what it used to look like anymore.

What does it look like now?

What does it look like now? For each individual, it's different. For each individual, it's different. For a lot of individuals, it's just like getting out of that routine that you were stuck in for so long. And did the pandemic allow you to say, you know what? Yeah, I was in a routine, but the routine wasn't getting me anywhere. I was in a routine of comfort. And the pandemic put a lot of people in a routine that was very uncomfortable, that they weren't used to. They weren't, but it was a necessity. It was needed. You know, people always wish for this time during this thing that happened, I wanna spend more time with my family.

And now they have it.

Now you have it. Okay? Schools aren't doing a good job with educating my kids. Now you're homeschooling. I'd love to work from the house.

Now you're doing it.

Now you're doing it. Now you have all these things going on that you wished you had as you thought were wins. And for some people they were. And for others you're just like, no. These were not wins. I do a lot of Zoom stuff at home and I got a cat and I got a very lively dog and you'll see the cat run right across the screen. I don't have little kids in the house anymore, but trying to work and have them in the background asking for school help or, you know, they're on their bandwidth trying to study in their school stuff. And winning became a distraction. It became a distraction. And people were trying to balance all these different things and forgot, hey, this is what my win is. that you need to recognize what that win is now. And during the pandemic, it's not getting back to normal. It's getting beyond normal. Figuring out what your next win is, how to place it, and how to continue to move forward on that win. Because it's easy to talk about the setbacks, because so many people can relate to that. That gave us a nice little comfort thing. Everybody can use the pandemic as an excuse. And then you have other people that thrive during that time. They're like, I gotta find out a new way to win. I gotta find out a real, real new way to win. And you had some people that really, really won big during that time.

They stepped up.

They stepped up, yes. They stepped up, they saw the steps. And then I was like, okay, are these steps stable? Are they unstable? It doesn't matter. I gotta climb 'em.

Right.

I gotta climb 'em.

So how do we learn how to not let the doubt stay in us? How do we remove it? How do we get out, how do we turn doubt into fear and action towards great decisions?

Continue to work like a maniacal individual. on what you want.

Is that the only way to get rid of doubt, you think, is by working, obsessing over something and proving something so you don't doubt?

Prove it to yourself. We have so many other individuals that are trying to prove it to everybody else. Don't worry about proving it to everybody else. Prove it to yourself.

And here's what I'll say around that. I think that's beautifully said because most of my life until I was about 30, I was living to others wrong.

Yes.

And it was the second most powerful fuel and energy that I think humans have is like, I'm angry, I'm hurt, I'm frustrated. I'm gonna go prove these people wrong about me. And it drove me to be obsessed around winning, around achieving, around accomplishing my goals. And I did. I accomplished them. But it left me feeling very unfulfilled. lonely, insecure, doubting myself even more. Why am I not feeling what I want to feel? Why am I not still getting what I want inside? Because I was driven by the wrong things. Yes. To prove other people doubting me wrong. And you hear that a lot by like people will say prove them wrong. But I think it's prove yourself right. Prove yourself right. And like you said, I love that you're saying this because you'll prove others wrong by proving yourself right. So you don't need to go prove them wrong.

Just do your best. You just gave an example.

Yeah.

You're one of your closest friends.

Yeah.

Man, that's a terrible name. That's a terrible name. All right. Prove yourself right. Yeah. Don't prove him wrong. Right.

Say, okay, I'm gonna go do this for me.

Whether you like it or not.

Right.

And the best validation is when they come back to you. I was wrong.

I was wrong.

That's the best validation. You don't need to say, I told you so. No.

You just say, I told myself so.

That's it.

It's a shift in it.

Right, and that person, what did they try to do? They tried to create self-doubt in you. And if you would have, this would have been called.

School of average.

Yes. Yes, normalcy.

Right, right.

Whatever it would've been.

Yeah.

Whatever it would've been.

So when doubt creeps in and we start to believe the doubt, go back into proving yourself right. Go back into obsessing over the craft, doing it for the right reasons, not to prove others wrong, not to look good in front of a crowd or whatever, but doing it because you love the art of it, the expression of it, the creation of it, the vision of the thing you want to work on, not to validate something that's lacking.

It's perfect. You look at when Kobe, his first playoff series, How old was he, Dwyane? In his first one? It was early in his career. I think he was like 18. Yeah, no, no, I'm talking about before he won the Finals. This was on the playoffs. In the playoffs.

In the playoffs.

In the playoffs. I think he had this- no shot, pre-shot. Yeah, he had this horrible game against, I think it might have been the Utah Jazz. I can't remember. Well, he shot like four or five straight air balls. I remember that, yeah. Four or five straight air balls. All right. Now, he could have came back next year and said, I gotta prove everybody that said, man, you're too young, why'd you take- No, he was just like, you know what? That's on me. I have to own that moment. I owned that moment. I owned that moment. Now, I gotta prove to myself I can overcome this because now everybody else is doubting me, but I can't doubt myself. I can't doubt myself. And everybody's had that moment. Everybody told MJ, don't go to North Carolina. You'll never play. You'll never play. And one of the stories I share with individuals is Dean Smith, who was a coach at the time, he introduced Michael. He said, Michael, I want you to meet, I think I got the name right. I'm pretty sure, he thinks so. I want you to meet Buzz Peterson. Buzz Peterson was the number one recruited player in the nation.

To go to North Carolina.

To go, yeah, like the number one anywhere. He was number one player in the nation. And Michael goes to Dean, says, how could he be number one? He ain't never played me. He said, how Dean saw Sutton, he saw that competitive nature in MJ. And he wanted to see, now if I tell him that, Is that kid going to start doubting himself? Because everybody else has already told him, you, shouldn't be here. You shouldn't be here. And Michael went out and he said, I don't need to prove to coach. I don't need to prove to Buzz. I need to prove to myself that I belong here.

Did they end up competing? Did they do one on one?

Yeah, he ended up, yeah, and it didn't turn out well.

For the other guy.

Yeah, for the other guy. Yeah. And Coach Smith made him roommates. Oh wow.

That's hilarious. Speaking of one-on-one, how many times did you get to play one-on-one against MJ or Kobe?

Often, it never turned out well.

Did you ever score a point against either of them?

Yes, I did.

Really? What was that?

And it was the last point I ever scored.

Really?

Yes.

What was that like? Where was the moment?

It was during it, it was during, well see it was kind of like a setup. It was a setup. So it was, Michael and I were kind of messing around and we had just finished a grueling leg workout.

He's like, can't walk.

Grueling leg workout.

So you get him when he's at his lowest moment.

Oh yeah. And he's up there and he's, you know, we go up there to get loose loosen up a little bit and he's just like, he's shooting. He goes, man, I can't even, I can't even feel, I can't even feel my, I can't even feel my legs. I said, I got a great idea to kind of loosen you up a little bit. I said, let's play a little one-on-one. And he thinks I'm just, yeah, he goes, I pass it to you, and I just go right around him and I score. And he goes, oh, big mistake. Big mistake. You saw Lily, the lactic acid just flush out of his body in that second.

And he goes, all right, motherfucker.

That was the last point.

That was the last time I touched the ball.

Really? He wouldn't even let you play with anybody anymore. I couldn't, he couldn't get the ball back. I couldn't get the ball back. I couldn't get the ball. I would get the ball back after he scored in the basket and I pass it back to him.

But then when you got the ball.

He was just swatting it away. Yeah, it was just like, I couldn't get around him. I mean, when you're a professional at something, people don't realize. how good those individuals are. I love the people that sit on the sidelines and all this other stuff and they doubt, they doubt how talented those individuals are. And I always tell them in any sport, I said, listen, you give me who you think are the five worst.

In the league, yeah.

In the league. I don't care who that any of them dominate.

Anyone.

You get your top five, they will literally dominate you. Doubt can become an addiction. Just like anything else. All right, and once you get that...

It's like winning.

Yes. So what do people say the first thing when you become an addict? You gotta talk about it. You gotta admit it.

Speak the poison out of your body.

Yes.

Get it out, talk about it. It becomes less scary. It doesn't have as much power over you if it's inside.

Get it out. What do you, because what I might think you're doubting may be completely different than something that you're doubting. I may see something and you're like, no, that's not it. Well, okay, let's talk about this a little more. Explain to me what's going on here. What created that doubt? What created that doubt? And we know after seven years, Those, it had finally gotten to the point where it was just like, and no one talked to him, because Kobe wasn't going to talk to anybody about it. He's never going to talk to the media about it. He has to talk to some individual that's like, hey, okay, listen, I understand. I'm as obsessed and as crazy as you are, because that's why you hired me. Right. All right. That's why you hired me. I understand. what's going on in under here. I understand the skeletons. I understand the demons. I get those things. Mine aren't the same as yours, but I have them. We all have them, and very few can admit them. So when you start admitting doubt and you start to be able to talk about it, you take something that you've tried to bury in your closet that needs to be addressed, but you're trying to hide it. You're trying to bury it. You're trying to put it away. And winning requires you to show up with all of you. It wants to show up the good, the bad, the fearful, the doubt, the anxiety, the ups, the downs. It needs to see all of you. Otherwise, it's never going to acknowledge you. It's not going to acknowledge you. And you can't win with just one thing. you have to win with all of you. All of it. All of it.

Wow. What was the greatest, three greatest lessons that Kobe taught you? We heard a competing accountability and winning at all levels for Michael. What about Kobe? The three big lessons he taught you?

Obsession?

Mm-.

Extremely high threshold for physical and mental pain, discomfort, and also winning. They all had that in common.

The winning mindset, the winning mentality.

Yes, what he called it, the mama mentality.

What is the mindset of winning? They both had that. obviously, they both had a lot of things, but what is the mindset of winning? When someone adopts that mentality, what does that do for them as opposed to the mindset of, well, whatever result I get is fine, or it's okay if I have this and I'm okay with that.

So I look at it, I look at it three ways. So you have individuals that compete. You know, a lot of people that compete.

Yeah.

We all know how to compete. Everybody knows how to come. You don't forget how to compete. We just decide. not to anymore. But a lot of people compete just to finish. Then there's individuals that win, but they only win one time. Yeah.

The hardest thing is doing it over and over. It's not easy to win. Right. But it's easy to win and then never win again. I mean, it's so hard to do it over and over consistently.

And then there's people that win at winning.

They win at winning.

Yes.

That is an art and a science probably combined.

Yes, because here's how it goes. You can't come back the same.

Once you win, you can't come back.

You can not come back the same. You have to come back different. You have to come back better. This is where I always says, listen, winning requires you to be different and different scares people.

Absolutely.

It scares people. So after each championship, Every single athlete, high performance athlete that I've worked with, even in business, would come up to me and say, what's next? Because I need to feel this again. I need to feel this again.

The obsession.

Yes, I need to feel this again. So they know they have to come back. Something about them has to be better.

They have to continue to evolve and change.

How many teams do you know in professional sports that they bring the exact same team back. I mean, exact same team that win again. They don't. There's always a little change. There's always a little tweak here. There's a change over here. There's something that goes on over here. And every athlete who's won multiple titles over and over again, or even in different business people, you look at, you just had Tony here. Look, he's won for decades.

For decades. He's been doing this.

Yes.

He's always reinventing, always finding new coaches, always mastering some skill, learning, evolving.

It's just like you just have to just watch what these individuals do. Just watch, he's not still using the same format he used 20 years. Like you said, new coaches, new content, new technology, new everything. And it's available to us, but people like, oh, we did it once and we can do it the exact same way again. again, you can't. You can't. You had, there's people that win at winning. And this is how, this is extremely important on how they do this.

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You said, well, how do you make sure you just don't go through this? We're all taught to manage time. Everyone tells you how to manage time. Make a list, this is what you do, and here it is. Have a little timer when it goes on and all this other stuff. And one of the things that I've teach all my clients from business standpoint, from an athletic standpoint, I was like, listen, don't manage time, manage focus.

Ooh. What does that look like?

Manage focus. So what happens is when you try to manage time, the clock is always against you. You're trying to finish off something and time goes by so quickly. Lilly, when you're in that moment, when you're so focused, when you're so focused, you don't know if you've been at it for 30 minutes or you've been at it for an hour.

Yeah, or weeks.

Or weeks, you just go. Time creates distractions. Lilly, time, if you're like managing time, you get all these distractions that are going there. What does focus do? It blocks them out. Right. So don't worry about managing time, manage your focus. Be in that moment when you're in that moment, and then you'll get so much more done during that time. Time tells you to stop. Focus tells you keep going.

I often ask people, what is your biggest challenge? What is the situation that you approach with dread? and that you execute with anxiety and that you leave with a sense of regret.

Oh, wow.

And so if you look at all, so dread, that is you projecting yourself into a future that's not gone well. So you're borrowing trouble, basically. Oh, wow. You know, the anxiety in the moment is you thinking more about what the other person thinks of you than what they're actually just thinking. You're worried about what you said a minute ago or what's going to happen afterwards. You're not able to be in the present. And then regret is, or what we call post-event processing. You're going over it, wanting to do over, going, I didn't show, I wasn't seen. They didn't see who I am. You know that feeling like, oh, they didn't see who I am. And you want to go back in. And in a rom-com, you get to have a do-over.

Right, right.

But in life, sometimes you don't.

So that sense of regret becomes like a piece of baggage that you carry into the next similar situation. And then you're worried because you don't.

Wanna do the same thing. You put more pressure on yourself.

What if we could approach with a sense of composure and execute it with a kind of calm and grounded confidence and leave feeling satisfied. Even if we don't get the outcome that we want, we know that we did everything we could. to show up. They saw who I was and it wasn't the right fit or whatever. And I can accept that outcome. So you can both accept the outcome and not have that extra piece of baggage.

Do you feel like people are going to be struggling with overcoming these fears more because of the internet and social media? Or how can they continue to navigate that fear of the tribe in person, not just online?

I don't even know where to begin. It's because there are also, first of all, if I make any statement about where I stand on that, there will be a million people telling me I'm absolutely wrong. Got it. But the truth is complicated, right? And in some ways, social media, so my son's on TikTok, and I can't believe the, the courage he has now to just put a video out there. And, you know, sometimes it goes and sometimes it doesn't. And he's fine if it doesn't go, if it doesn't move. So I think that that's actually been really good for him. He doesn't feel rejected. He just feels like, well, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but I'm never gonna know if I don't put myself out there. So I think in some ways young people have become more courageous. at trying things. I mean, you know, yes, I would like them to spend less time on it. And I like that he's doing music. You know, he's like putting out my kid's doing quality content.

Yeah, exactly, yeah.

No, but I think that in some ways it's actually given young people an opportunity to be rejected and see that they've survived, right?

Yes.

But rejection, the rejection that I'm talking about is a video a TikTok video not going viral. It's not that it's, which is not the same as nasty comments, like being rejected and trolled. That's a different kind of rejection, right? And that's not the same. Absolutely.

Yeah, yeah. What about the anxiety of putting yourself out there, whether it be going into a store and just interacting with people, whether it be giving a speech online, putting up, you know, something human interaction in person and feeling embarrassed or rejected or made fun of. How do we learn to overcome that anxiety or stress about it? Is it as simple as just you gotta practice it and just know that you're alive?

I hate to say something so simple, but yes, like I am, I am just not afraid to embarrass myself.

That's good.

And I have to sometimes, like, Hold on to that, like because I think it's, I think it was really important for my son to see that. Like to me modeling that was really important.

Not being embarrassed.

Yeah, being like, you know, making mistakes, being goofy, like doing something goofy in the grocery store.

And being okay with it.

Yeah, another one is, it's being okay with like chatting with a stranger. And maybe they don't want to chat and that's fine, then you move on. But why not try? I think doing those things, first of all, I think it's great to model that for kids. But I also think it's good to do it just to see that, oh, you've survived. You're fine. No one's worse. Exactly. No one even cares.

I'm not remembering this for the rest of my life.

You might have made somebody smile. Right.

Right.

So...

I'm all about soul. like creating social challenges for yourself. Like if you're terrified.

I think that's a good one. I mean like chat with someone on the train or and I know it's hard right now.

Right, right. But do something consistently.

Yeah, or like ask someone, ask, you know, if you're, I don't know why grocery stores seem like places where lots of silly things can happen. You know, if someone's like checking Out checking you, what do you-- Checking you out. Checking you out. That sounds funny, checking you out. You know what I mean? Like checking out your groceries. And they are looking down and they seem grumpy. Instead of deciding they're not friendly, consider the possibility that they're having a bad day and literally like pause and say, how are you? Or like try to connect with them. without being intrusive, make eye contact with them, thank them, make eye contact. Maybe they'll just be annoyed and not make eye contact back, but I feel like that kind of thing is really important to try. And those are things that create sort of social benefits for others as well.

Absolutely. This is something you've been studying for, I guess, decades now, which is just mastering confidence, body language, overcoming these challenges, what's been the biggest challenge for you in the last 10 years that you've had to overcome? Knowing the research and practicing these things and talking about these things yourself, what's been the challenge for you? Whether career or personal or...

I think the challenge for me has been adjusting to, you know, being more well known than the average academic, right?

Right, right, right.

And actually, you know, leaving academia. You know, I still teach, but I'm not, you know, I'm not-- Full-time. No. You know, I teach in executive education at Harvard, but I'm not a professor. You know, I'm a lecturer when I lecture. Leaving was hard.

Really?

So, I mean, it was a big leap to leave that security, but it wasn't, it just was not the right world for me. But I think the biggest challenge really has been dealing with becoming higher, sort of having, becoming higher profile and the kind of backlash that I endured as a result of that. Criticism. Which is not, yes. And well, yeah, I mean, criticism's fine, but bullying is not, you know? And I know that this is common. Like this happens to, in fact, it happens to a lot of junior professors who give TED Talks. Really?

Yeah.

It's funny, somebody just wrote to me yesterday. She has a popular TED Talk. And she, you know, she said that at her university, people started calling her Ted Girl and, like, sort of talking down to her.

Even though it was a popular, well-respected Ted Talk.

Because it was popular, right? Like, it's like if it had been, if it had not really hit the radar, it would have been okay.

Really, but because she had some success.

Yeah, so people had to sort of diminish her in a way, you know, and I experienced a lot of that. the same stuff. So what became hard for me was talking to colleagues, right? Like standing up for myself. And you, you know, the truth is we need to stand up for each other, right? When people are in an acute bullying situation, they really can't stand up for themselves. But I'm still figuring out how to engage with other people in academia who weren't necessarily bullies but might have been bystanders. who didn't do anything. And, but to be able to say, I still deserve to be having this conversation. I deserve to have the beliefs that I have. I deserve to defend, you know, this massive area of research on body-mind feedback of which, you know, like I contribute a tiny bit to just because these people don't like it doesn't mean I can't. you know, say, well, here's why I do believe it. Here's, that's really hard for me. That is the thing that I would approach with the most dread, I think.

Were you able to implement and integrate some of your own practices and teachings when those things happened to you? When you were getting, whether it be criticism or bullying or, you know, any of the stuff you were facing, were you able to actually integrate the body language for yourself?

I mean, for me, the thing that works the best is, I mean, certainly I do, like I walk expansively, like long strides before this kind of stressful thing. I won't sit down with my hands in my lap. Like even putting your hands behind your chair, this is a very- It kind.

Of opens you up a little bit.

But it forces you to open up just doing that. But the thing that works the best for me is breathing. And I know there is so much on breath work now and I don't wanna, you know, I'm not an expert, but the relaxation response that's triggered by certain breathing patterns is incredibly effective for me. And so basically it sends your nervous system into this rest and digest state, which is the opposite of fight, flee, or faint. And so the one that I like best is called 4-7-8 breathing. and we can do it right now. Yes, do it. So basically for four counts you inhale, for seven you hold your breath, and for eight you exhale. So I'm gonna count and you do it.

Okay, four inhale.

Seven, hold it, and eight exhale. Okay, cool. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Six, seven, eight.

And you repeat that a few times?

Three times. Like one time you feel it. It will put me to sleep at night. If I'm relaxed, it makes me sleepy. But if I'm anxious, it calms me down. So that just, I mean, there's just so much research on the relaxation response and breathing. But what I think is interesting about it is that that kind of breathing is expansive. Just like what I talk about, expansive posture, that's expansive. You're breathing deeply and slowly. You're taking up more temporal space. You're expanding your, you know, like your physical body more. And when we expand, we tend to feel more confident, more powerful, more calm.

Should we always, not always, should we be frequently be in an expansive postural state when we're, you know, kind of nine to five-ish out in the world doing our activities.

What we should be in is having good neutral posture. So it's before stressful events, you know, that's when I say find a private space. I think I said in the TED Talk, find a bathroom stall. Which I honestly think just like I thought of at the moment, but I can't tell you how many emails I get from people who are like, I was in a bathroom, you know, or like people who see somebody in a bathroom with their arms up in the air. Are you power posing in there?

And Ted Lasso is saying she goes.

To the bathroom and does that, right? I know, I loved it so much. It's so cool. You can't imagine, like I love that show and I had no idea. You had no idea it was coming?

I was like sobbing. I was like, oh my god. What's so cool that you, Brene Brown and Esa Parrell, who have had both of them on as well, were all.

Featured in there and I'm just like, that's amazing. I know, and I think all of us were absolutely thrilled. Like this is cool. I mean to have that, and I I know I was telling Brene this, but the first time I saw that show, at the end of the first episode, I turned to my husband and I said, I love Ted Lasso. And he goes, that's because you are Ted Lasso. And I was like, well, I guess I had good self-esteem then, but I am Ted Lasso. And so are you.

Yes, exactly.

It's funny, 'cause Brene says that she's Roy Kent. Yeah, I guess she is.

She's Roy Kent.

You can see a little bit. But anyway, yeah, so before these stressful situations, the ones that you approach with dread, that's when you find some space and really make yourself big.

Expansive.

Whatever feels comfortable to you, expand. In front of other people, it comes across as really aggressive and domineering and off-putting. But if you're in the privacy of your own bathroom stall or office or whatever, you can do whatever you want. You don't have to worry about cultural norms or putting people off. In our everyday lives, we spend so much time like this, you know, with our phones. And that is really bad. First, it's bad for us, just our posture, and it's creating this sort of fixed thoracic stoop. Physiotherapists used to only see in elderly people, and now they're seeing it in 15-year-old boys. from gaming, things like that. And that's something, you can't just be like, oh, I'm gonna sit up straight. You have to work that out.

For years working it out, align your body.

Totally. It's not only hurting our posture, but I believe that it is affecting our mood. And so even just set up your workspace so that you can be more expansive. We neglect our body language when we're alone because it's language. And if we're alone, we're not talking to anyone.

We're talking to ourselves.

But we're talking to ourselves, right? So it's really important, I think, for us to be minding our posture. Also, there have been a couple of meta-analyses recently, which basically are just studies that look at all of the studies on a topic and come up with a sort of an average effect size. Like they say, yes, this is a real effect, and this is how big the effect is. So studies that have looked at meta-analyses of power opposing studies show really clearly that it affects the way we feel. So expanding our body. Shrinking versus expanding.

Affects the way whether in a positive or.

More expansive, more confident and powerful. more powerful psychologically, shrinking less powerful, less confident. But what's interesting is that there are two meta-analyses. One of them shows that more of the effect is driven by the difference between neutral and expansive. The other one shows that more of the effect is driven by the difference between contractive and neutral. So, I'm not, we still, in short, there's evidence that both of those things matter, but certainly neutral is better than contracting. Shrinking, yeah, exactly.

And it's probably, you know, even if you were doing a meditative breathing technique, if you're closing your body off and breathing, you're still probably limiting yourself. So, you can be breathing and trying to relax the nervous system, but You're closing your body off, it's hard to feel more alive and confident and calm, I'm assuming.

Absolutely. It's funny, I once, this woman wrote to me, she said, I teach people public speaking and I had this student who was really stressed out, this man. And so I got him to power pose for a minute and he said it made him feel worse.

Really?

And she said, but then I watched, we watched the video, she said, I videotaped him. And we watched the video, and I was like, Were you breathing? He said, no, I didn't breathe.

I held my breath the whole time.

Oh my gosh. He's like, well, that's not gonna work. Yeah, exactly. So he had been completely still in this power pose, and she, I mean, she was laughing about it, but yeah, yeah, how long should we be in.

An expansive postural states for?

You know, it's funny, I really emphasized two minutes in the TED Talk, because that's what we had done in the for studies, I think actually less is more. Like we've gone out to five minutes. I think that it just gets awkward. It's that silly. You feel weird, but also your body gets sort of stiff. So I just think it's, I don't even think you have to be still. I think you can be moving in an expansive way. I think there's, it's the whole, I I sometimes wish that I hadn't called this power posing because it was such a sticky idea, right? It's got alliteration. It's like-- Great branding. Exactly. But at the same time, people got fixed on standing like Wonder Woman or in the victory pose, and it's not, being expansive is more expansive than this. Yes. in whatever way works for you.

Yeah, the tighter you are, the probably less likely you're gonna perform relaxed.

Right.

And football training before games and in practices, they would always tell us to be loose. You know, to move our body to be flexible, to be expansive, but in a loose state of mind and a loose body, not like rigid or you can't catch the ball if you're like too tight. So it's how can you be expansive, confident and relaxed at the at the same time. And practicing that in life with the power pose, I think is great. Until last year, she did a great, she was like, ah, right, she did a monster pose or something. I think she was like, it's amazing.

She gave me this facial expression that I thought was great.

She's a great actress, well.

I wonder if that was like, so if they were like, just do a power pose and she made it happen.

She probably did.

I just feel like, she was great.

She was great. Maine, where life the way it should be transforms all who encounter its spectacular landscapes. Rugged coastlines, pine-scented trails, sandy beaches, sparkling lakes, and tranquil forests inspire you to reflect and make meaningful moments. They offer endless opportunities for adventure and exploration. Whether pedaling or paddling, hiking or biking, Maine has more than enough outdoor spaces to make the most of long summer days. Relish in exquisite flavors harvested from the ocean and the rich soils of orchards and fields. Maine's makers are rooted in its heritage while boldly branching into new ways of thinking, doing, and being. Connect with its people in warm and authentic towns, which beckon you to stroll art galleries and locally owned shops, where generations of artists, writers, entrepreneurs, and craftspeople see the world anew. It's tempting to do it all when you visit, but take a beat and a breath. Get a feel for the time and tempo of Maine. Simple pleasures, Scenic Adventures, where every route is the scenic one. Discover more at visitmaine.com Is it just.

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Great. Was there ever a time where you didn't implement this strategy and you realized, oh, I could have done better had I done this, but I just thought I had it figured out?

Only, You know, so I really love public speaking and it doesn't, it's like my favorite professional thing to do. It doesn't make me nervous.

That's good.

So for me, I think a lot of people assume that speaking is the thing that makes everyone nervous. So for me, it's not that.

What makes you nervous?

You know, interpersonal conflict, like one-on-one or I get nervous in smaller groups. It's been interesting, like five or ten people.

I feel so scared.

If you're talking to three people, I find much more stressful than talking to 3,000 people. So I don't like to sit in a room for a long time before I'm gonna get up and talk to people. I don't wanna sit there in a cold room, these rooms are often cold, and you're going like this, and you're totally sort of stiff, and then you get up and you're like, oh. So I had that experience enough times to learn, I need to be moving around, I need to be warm, not cold, and come in sort of, you know, right before I get up to present or to discuss. So yes, I've had the experience of being still and kind of, you know, hunched up for too long.

Final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

I think people might think of it as sort of about being the most, sort of the best, the most confident. I think it's a combination of being, yes, your most sort of effective self, but also your most generous self. So greatness has to combine those two qualities.

Why is it so hard for us to get started once we know, okay, now it's time to make the change, but it's still hard to actually get started in doing that. What holds us back from that starting step?

Yeah, well, our motivation to make change is actually just like our motivation to do anything, by the way, tends to be sort of, you know, it ebbs and flows. There are times when we are in a more reflective, action-oriented, change-oriented mode, and times when we're more pessimistic or just sort of going with the flow because we're, you know, in the middle of things. And so actually, I've done some research on something I call the fresh start effect. This is with Hengchen Dai, who's down the street at UCLA, my former student. and Jason Reese, senior fellow at Wharton. And what we have shown in our work is that there are certain moments that feel like a new beginning in life.

Like when?

So one that you know about already.

New Year's or?

Yes, exactly. Right. Like you didn't need me to come here and tell you about any fancy science. You're like, yeah, I know about New Year's.

Birthday, New Year's, yeah.

Yeah, there are moments that feel like, okay, I'm turning a page.

An anniversary, a graduation.

Move to a new community. A new job.

Jobs.

City.

You got it. Those are all fresh start moments. Actually, there's trivial ones too, but they can matter. Like the start of a new week can feel like a fresh start. That's true. You sort of sit down, you go into work maybe for the first time in a couple days, you feel fresh at your desk, ready to sit and think about what are my priorities in a way that you wouldn't in the middle of a week. Start of a new month following celebration of certain holidays, particularly the kind that we associate with fresh starts. So those are all moments when we feel like we've opened a new chapter and we have a couple things that go on at those moments. One is that we feel like, okay, this is a moment when I want to step back and think big picture about things because you recognize that there's that break point. You think actually about your life like you're a character in a book. That the way we organize our memories and structure them, it's not linear completely. Instead, it's like, you know, the college years, you know, the years Playing sports, the years living in Boston, whatever they are, that's how you structure your memories. And that means there's actually implications for the way you live your life. Because when you get to one of those chapter breaks, that's when you do this big picture thinking.

Interesting.

And you also tend to feel like your identity is shifting, right? So you step into a new role as you, you know, I'm turning 40 in the year ahead, and that feels like a big break to me. Like, I will be in a different age category. When I became a professor, I vividly remember, like, that was a huge shift in my identity. I felt like a different, okay, I have a different set of expectations and roles and ways I should sort of dress and talk. And that identity shift that can come, even if it's something as small as, you know, you're stepping into a new year and you feel like the new year, new you, you can look back and say, well, you know, last year, my old job, when I was a graduate student, I didn't manage to eat right. But that was the old me and this is the new me. And so you feel this sense of optimism and disconnect from those past failures.

-Right. -It's easy to procrastinate or kind of feel lazy, which is part of your process as well. It's easy to feel that when things are okay and when things are like good, but they're not like, it's not a big enough pain for you to be like, I need the motive. Now I have motivation to make a change. -Yeah. -Yeah. No, I agree. -Do we need a bigger pain or is it possible to create exponential change or transformation when things are okay or really good in your thought?

It's so interesting. You know, I do think that even when things are good, we can have these kinds of fresh start experiences that shape us in positive ways. I'll give you an example. I had a phone call. I was driving here from Santa Barbara. This morning, I had a phone call with a friend who just got tenure. And he is thinking big, his life is great. For those that don't know him, what does that mean?

Oh yeah, fair enough.

Not everyone is part of my weird world.

Academic world, yes.

Okay, so in academia, if you're a professor, this is like the be all and end all of your career. You're working really hard, you get your PhD, you get your assistant professor job, you work really hard, you write a bunch of papers, you teach a bunch of classes. And if your university says, you know, you're doing great, if you're good enough, they bestow upon you tenure, which means Permanent job. Job security basically can't be fired unless you do something illegal. And they're saying, you have now total academic freedom. We're no longer going to be evaluating you. We trust you. We trust you. And it's like this bizarre institution that's created to help people take risks. But it is a big moment in the life of an academic when they get to that milestone. It's like there's nowhere else to go. You've climbed to the top of the mountain. And so it's really exciting. It often happens to people around their 40s. sort of like midlife when you might already be having some introspection going on about like, why am I here? What's my purpose? So a lot of academics step back at that moment and think, what do I want to do now? What do I want to do next? I've been climbing and climbing to this point. And I was having this conversation with a friend on the drive here who had reached that point and was having that exact, okay, what's next? And wanted to talk about writing a book since I'd written a book. And like, what is that? Like, he thinks that might be the next big adventure for him. But nothing is wrong. Everything is right. It's just that he reached a moment, he reached an achievement, he got to the top of a mountain and looked around and realized, okay, I've climbed to my goal and it's time to figure out what the next one is. And I think that can be a fresh start, too. That's positive.

Identity is something that is interesting to me. How important is the way we shape our own identity or view our identity in terms of where we are to.

Where we will be.

Like if we stay stuck in old identities, how do we shed identities? You know, how do we create a new identity even though we've never actually lived it? Will that help us get there? Can you share more just about identity in general on how it hurts us or helps us? It's a fantastic question.

I'm going to give you a somewhat, first I'm going to give you a somewhat frustrating answer. It frustrates me. I don't feel like academic research has wrapped its arms around identity the way I would like it to. Because I think it is unquestionably so important, right? The labels we put on ourselves obviously matter, but I feel like we don't know nearly as much as we should. It's one of the things I'm most interested to study.

It's a nice book.

Moving, maybe. We know a little. One of the things I think is most relevant to the way I think about identity is mindset, which is it's different than identity, but a mindset can come with or can be triggered by an identity. And one of the barriers we haven't talked about yet to change that I think is really important is whether you believe you can change. And identity and mindset are a big part of that. So we know a lot about mindset from work, for instance, by Carol Dweck at Stanford, who's done this incredible- Mindset versus fixed mindset. Exactly. And that's sort of an identity, right? You identify with being someone who can grow or you identify as someone who is X, right? Like, you know, I'm only this smart. I'm only this capable. So in a sense, there's an identity that comes with believing you can grow or an identity that comes with believing you can't. There's also wonderful research on the placebo effect and how that extends beyond just medicine, right? We know about it in medicine that like, if you believe a sugar pill is going to make you healthier, you actually experience physiological benefits. But there's some really interesting research showing it's beyond, you know, we think of it in this medical context and that's where it was first studied actually I learned from a children's book, like Ben Franklin studied this and I don't know if you know, mesmerizing. That term comes from Dr. Mesmer who was the original sort of charlatan in France who was giving people fake medicine and charlatan. Anyway, and Ben Franklin figured it all out. Sounds like a freakin' Amazon show. It does, it was like, and it's also a wonderful children's book. So I wish I'd known before I wrote my book, it would have been in there. Anyway, there's a lot more though than just the medical component to placebo effects, right? When we believe that we will achieve something that also can improve our achievement, right? When we believe we're going to get an outcome. One of my favorite studies that I describe in the book that I think is sort of related to mindset and identity is work by Allie Crum, who's a psychologist at Stanford. She did this really interesting work with Ellen Langer of Harvard, where they randomly assigned housekeepers to one of two groups. And those housekeepers were either told every day when you go and do your job in a hotel, you are getting exercise at the level that's recommended by the CDC. So you're getting a great workout when you do your job.

You're burning a thousand calories or you're.

Getting whatever, like your... Right. I don't know if a thousand calories is the definition of a great workout. You're getting a great workout. Oh, good workout. Yeah, maybe it's more like 300. Okay, okay. Just not to get too overboard. And then, Another group just wasn't told that information. And the question actually was, are there differences in the outcomes those two groups experience a month later in terms of health? So does a group that believes they're doing a job that comes with health benefits actually end up losing more weight, having more controlled blood pressure? And the answer was yes.

Really?

Which is, on the one hand, you're like, is that magic? What's going on? On the other hand, you can start to see how it actually would play out and how this would be applicable in other settings. So they believed their job could give them a workout. And all of a sudden, maybe they're choosing to take the stairs from floor to floor to get those extra calories or lean a little bit more when they're using the vacuum. I live in a townhouse in Philadelphia, and someone pointed out to me, it's so great that you live in a townhouse, all that passive exercise when you run up and down the stairs. And now I am the one volunteering to go grab the ketchup that we forgot if we're going to have dinner on a roof deck. That's exciting. I can get extra exercise. So there's different choices that you make once you start to have a different set of beliefs about your- Interesting. you- know, what you're achieving. So anyway, I think of this as related to identity because now you're starting to have the identity as I am someone doing a career that's physically active. And now you lean into that and then you experience the benefits. So I think the work on mindset is the best work I have that's really rigorous and that relates to identity.

So if belief supports you getting those results you want or making the transformation of the change you want, how would you suggest that we learn to believe in ourselves more from a scientific point of view? Like what's the data suggest on, okay, if you say these affirmations, if you look in the mirror and do this exercise, if you just smile at people and you create more reflection of joy, like what is the thing thing that you've seen in data that helps increase belief in oneself.

Yeah, I think the most powerful thing is who you surround yourself with. Really? So I think the social context you create, the people around you have so much to do with whether or not you believe in yourself. And by the way, I also want to add a really quick footnote because the academic in me can't stand not to, which is to say you can have excessive confidence and that be harmful. So this is a little bit of a dangerous, like, seesaw we're on here, right? You want to be confident enough and believe in yourself enough that you're going to lean into the opportunities and, you know, work towards the goals that, because you believe you could achieve them. But if you're like, I've got this, I'm perfect, you're not going to practice, you're not going to work hard. So there is, anyway, it's a, it's a little bit of a delicate balance. But back to how do you get to that right level of belief? Everything I know from research points to the structure of the people you surround yourselves with, whether it's the people you work with, the people you train with, if you're an athlete, the people you socialize with. They give you a lot of those beliefs in yourself. And you can choose them, but they will, with the messages they send you about what's acceptable behavior, what's normal, what they're achieving and how you measure up. It shapes so much about our confidence.

Maine, where life the way it should be transforms all who encounter its spectacular landscapes. Rugged coastlines, pine scented trails, sandy beaches, sparkling lakes and tranquil forests inspire you to reflect and make meaningful moments. They offer endless opportunities for adventure and exploration. whether peddling or paddling, hiking or biking, Maine has more than enough outdoor spaces to make the most of long summer days. Relish in exquisite flavors harvested from the ocean and the rich soils of orchards and fields. Maine's makers are rooted in its heritage while boldly branching into new ways of thinking, doing, and being. Connect with its people in warm and authentic towns, which beckon you to stroll art galleries and locally owned shops, where generations of artists, writers, entrepreneurs, and craftspeople see the world anew. It's tempting to do it all when you visit, but take a beat and a breath. Get a feel for the time and tempo of Maine. Simple pleasures, scenic adventures, where every route is the scenic one. Discover more at visitmaine.com.

The path to retirement is different for everyone, and as life changes, so do priorities. Fidelity can help you get where you want to go with a free personalized Plan, Goal Tracking, and Timely Insights, you'll be set to take on retirement. Whether you're saving for it or already living in it, get started at fidelity.com/takeon. Expenses charged by your investments and other costs and fees associated with trading or transacting in your account apply. Fidelity Brokerage Services member, NYSCIPC.

Really?

There seems to be, I think this is true, and I also love the examples of, some of the great athletes who've accomplished so much that were doubted over and over growing up and kind of have this chip on their shoulder, like no one believed in them and they said, I'm gonna go prove them wrong type of mentality, which I think can get you extremely far in terms of success and results, but never feel like you're fulfilling your potential inside.

You never choose that.

No.

Right. So I think what you're pointing to is like, it's not a necessary condition.

Right.

It's not the best environment.

It's not the only. Yeah, yeah. There are people who can thrive without it. But if you get to choose and if you want to create an environment where you're going to believe in yourself.

So you think surrounding yourself with the right people, the right environment of people, the right community, what should those people be like? You know, what should their attitude, their energy, their communication style be like with you? If people were reflecting on their 5 to 10 people in their inner circle, what should they reflect on? They should have these qualities. They should say these things or here's some red flags. If your best friend tells you you shouldn't do this or your best friend says, I don't think you look good doing whatever it is, what are those flags and what are those I guess positive signs? Yeah.

Okay, here let me pivot a little bit to another. We're doing a lot of academic stuff.

I like it.

I love it. I'm actually going to tell you a story about a person in academia who is who was the most important person in my career, and that's my dissertation advisor. His name is Max Bazerman. He's a Harvard Business School professor, great human being, and a great academic. What he's truly exceptional at is mentoring. His PhD students have gone on to be tenured professors. Now everyone knows what tenured is. At every elite institution in the world.

So he's good at instilling belief in other people. Unbelievable.

Confidence, belief. Unbelievably good. And he does all the other things that you need to do to help someone succeed, right? Like, you know good coaches. Of course. You know, the training, like the actual teaching of skills, all those things are part of it. But I think he creates an environment for people to thrive. And it actually took me a while after I had graduated as one of his advisees, and I was trying to advise my own students and figure out what was the secret sauce that made him so wildly more successful as a coach and mentor than anyone else in our field had really, I mean, stratospherically more successful. And what I realized is he had all the obvious stuff, all those obvious ingredients, like, you know, responsive and new as stuff and gives you feedback. But there was an unshaking belief, like he treated you like family, he was there for you, he believed that you could do it, he always was giving that positive reinforcement. Another thing that he did that I think is so interesting and related to research is he sort of created, I'll call it like mentoring circles within the students he was coaching so that we were not always just being coached or mentored and advised by him, right, but he would put us in the position to advise more junior students.

Smart.

So there's this wonderful research that I write about in the book by Lauren Eskes Winkler, who's a a professor at the Kellogg School at Northwestern. And she had this amazing insight when she was doing research for her dissertation. She noticed that she was interviewing all these people who were struggling to achieve their goals. And as she asked them what they thought might help them achieve more, because that's what she was interested in, how do we increase achievement, they all had these really deep insights, you know, struggling salespeople and C students, when she got them to introspect, they actually knew a lot. They maybe just hadn't gotten there and no one had asked them. They also really liked being asked. Like, what's your advice? How would you coach someone who is in your shoes? And she realized most of the time when someone is struggling or when we're coaching someone, our instinct, even if it's unsolicited, is to just whip out some advice. Like, here are the seven things that I think will help you get further. And it can be really demotivating because it conveys like, I think you're kind.

Of, you know, you haven't gotten your stuff together. You don't have the answers.

I have the answers. I'm going to give you the answers. And that's our instinct. And she thought, what if we flip the script? What if instead of putting our arm around someone and giving them advice, we.

Said, you know, what would you do?

What would you do?

And actually, how would you coach someone else?

And not even just how would you actually have them coach someone else? Like put you in the role of a mentor and coach to someone else who has similar goals so that you feel like you're on a pedestal. Wow, someone trusts me to give this kind of advice. I must, I must, you know, be kind of cut out for this. Maybe I'm better at this than I thought. And then you're going to start introspecting in a way you might not if it was just your problem. Because you've got to help someone else and you don't, you know, you don't want to let them down. And then when you do that, you actually figure out, well, I've got some good ideas. And, like, maybe I do know something. And then once you've told someone else to do it, you're going to feel like a hypocrite if you don't do it yourself.

Right.

So this is another sort of social trick. Max would put us in these sort of advice-giving circles where the senior students are working with the junior.

And he rarely gave advice actually. He more facilitated the experience for you to learn and create the answer within yourself, I guess, by helping others. By helping others.

And he would, you know, he's nudging along the way and like good job or like maybe a little redirection. But and if you go to him and you're like, I need to know how to do X, he tells you. But there wasn't a lot of, steer, like backseat driving, if that makes sense. And I think that also helped build confidence. It made us believe in ourselves in those roles. And I now actually have an advice club of people who are former Max students, maybe no accident, we sort of try to keep this going even beyond that point in our lives where he was coaching us. And each of us We're at similar career stages, all professors, similar goals, and we reach out to each other for solicited advice whenever we're facing a challenge, a career challenge, and aren't sure what to do. And it's just been totally amazing. So it's this peer group of people who support each other, care about each other, there's friendship, that's all built in. We see others achieving and it helps us see, oh, if they can do it, I can do it. But then also we get to give advice and we grow from that as well.

What would you say are the top three or five things that a coach can do to instill belief in someone else that you witnessed from him or that you've also seen with your peer group?

I think a lot of positive feedback is super important. That that's like the predominant sense is that this person thinks I'm doing great, even if they're also telling me ways I can improve because you don't want to only obviously. It's really important to also get well like a little more like this. You need that nudging but it needs to be with a positive. Sometimes people call it a feedback sandwich, right? You like start with the positive anyway. So I do think that positivity and like conveying they believe in you, I think creating social structure for you which is one of the things Max did, there was sort of a whole ecosystem of other students and supporters and who were all striving towards similar goals. And instead of feeling like we were in competition with one another, it was very clear that we were all part of a team. Almost every email starts with high team, right? These are academics all vying for jobs and to sort of achieve. And you could see it being very cutthroat and competitive. We weren't on a team, right? We weren't playing for a team. But we were a team. And that was how we saw ourselves. And then the structuring, you know, some, everybody's structured to help others who are below, you know, below them. It's sort of part of your role is working with them. So those are a few of the key things. I'm not sure I've hit your number.

Positive feedback, social structure, supporting the team.

Yeah.

Putting people in the role of advice givers or supporters and mentors.

I think you. Yeah, he's, he said, you said he believed in you. He treated you like family, mentoring circles. Yeah.

Yeah, so maybe we have hit your number you asked for.

That's great. I love that.

Those were the keys.

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