How to Build Command, Authority & Credibility w/Evy Poumpouras 1092

This is episode number 1092 with former US Secret Service Special Agent, Evie Pompelis.

Welcome to the School of Greatness.

My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. [Speaking of] Howard Baker said the most difficult thing in any negotiation almost is making sure that you strip it of the emotion and deal with the facts. And author Carol fringr said, don't bargain yourself down before you get to the table. My guest today is Evie Pompurus, and I had a blast today with her as a member of the most prestigious protection force in the world for over 12 years. Evie served on the Secret Service's presidential protection division. for President Barack Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama. She also protected presidents George W. Bush, Bill Clinton and George H.W. Bush as well. And when not safeguarding the world's most high value assets, Evi worked complex criminal investigations, operated undercover and was an interrogator for the agency's elite polygraph unit specially trained in the art of lie detection, human behavior and cognitive influence. Evi's actions as a first responder during the 9/11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center in New York City bestowed her the United States Secret Service Valor Award. She's the author of Becoming Bulletproof, Protect Yourself, Read People, Influence Situations, and Live Fearlessly. And in this episode, we discuss the three questions to ask someone in order to get the truth out of them. How to communicate effectively, even if you're sharing bad news. The best way to build command, authority, and credibility in any situation. How to stop worrying about other people's opinions. The Habit Evi contributes her success and happiness to, and so much more. Make sure to share this with someone that you think would be inspired by her story and her insights. And a quick reminder, if this is your first time here or you've been listening for a while, but you haven't subscribed yet, please click the subscribe button over on Apple Podcast or Spotify or wherever you're listening to this right now, as well as let us know what you enjoyed most about this episodes in the ratings and reviews section on Apple Podcast.

Okay, in just a moment, the one.

And only Evi Pompouras. Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness Podcast. Very excited about our guest. Ebbie Pomprous in the house, former Secret Service agent. I'm so excited you're here. Welcome.

Thank you.

To the show as a recovering liar, cheater, stealer, but a human being that always wanted to be good as growing up. But for some reason, I found myself in situations of lying, cheating, and stealing my way through a lot of life. School, shoplifting, all these things lying to my parents, all this stuff. I'm curious if I would have had the secrets growing up on how to lie better, where I didn't get caught, what would I need to have done better? Because I got caught a lot lying to my dad and my mom all the time. What would I have needed to do better? Or should I just not try to ever lie and just be completely honest and not worry about it?

I think some lying to some degree is healthy.

Really?

Well, if somebody's calling you and you don't want to answer the phone and they're very a taxing person or emotionally, you know, those emotional vampires are just someone that's not unhealthy for you. Voicemail, sorry, I was busy. I think in some situations it's okay. But as far as like lying, it's interesting you say that because we would, to become a special agent, there was a polygraph that you would have to take and these things would come up as far as like, do you steal? Do you cheat? Do you lie? But Often people were worried about telling the truth. And what they do is they wouldn't tell the truth. Yes, I stole. Yes, I did this. And they would hold it in. They fail their polygraph or fail that part of the interview. And had they told the truth, they probably would have been fine because it was more of an integrity thing.

It is more like tell the truth and not pass the test. But at least you are telling the truth.

You will pass the test if you tell the truth. Here is the thing. It is like the thought process is if you are going to lie about this, A polygraph, you know, then you're gonna lie about everything.

-Oh, right.

-And so it's a big part of the job is trust, 'cause you get so much power, so much authority. You're around the president of the United States. You're really around, you know, secret environments, so to speak. And so they really need to know that you can just be dropped anywhere and it's okay. So it's really about the integrity of it.

How many polygraph tests did you take to study the polygraph? doing this process as an agent?

I didn't take a lot, but I had to take them and then pass them myself because you have to get in so I would be polygraphed. Are you, you know, about my background or, you know, and I can't get into the details I'm kind of filtering now in my head, but basically, you know, are you trustworthy? Are you looking to cause harm? Have I convicted any felonies that have not shared? Drugs tended to be a big disqualifier for a lot of folks.

Drugs. If you've done drugs or if you've.

Been... Drug use or drug experimentation, so they would allow... Hey, when you were.

16, if you did it for a few months...

They allow, they have criteria. I think today it's a lot more lenient. When I went in, it was extremely strict. But I think what they found is like, we can't find people.

Everyone tried something, right?

We can't find people, everybody's failing the exam. And there's this understanding of that when people are young, They make mistakes. And it's, you know, should something that you did when you were 16, 17, 18, 19, and now you're 30 preclude you from getting a job somewhere else? So there has to be a little bit of that logic in there where, you know, when it was a bit so severe, but I think there is a lot more experimentation today. But as far as your first question about your parents, I think that they just knew you well. And so they knew.

They could just feel it. I'm just like, no, I didn't do it.

Well, they know you, so they know your tells, they know your demeanor, they know how you shift when you do lie. And so sometimes with people that we know very well, we can see it. They're probably very intuitive to you. They probably also didn't want to believe your lies, because sometimes you'll have people say, well, I was married to someone or I was close to someone and I didn't see it. And sometimes we intuitively see it. We know it's there, but we ignore it. And so we'll listen to somebody's excuses or explanations. And because we're invested in that person and we want to believe in that person, we want to believe the lie. And so sometimes that's what happens when we get caught up in something. And then you look back, you're like, I saw this, I saw that, and all those nickels will start dropping. But when you're invested in someone, you want to believe in them. You want to believe when they tell you, oh, no, no, no, I was actually doing this. Because it's not to your benefit, it's to your benefit to believe what they tell you. -I know.

-Do we all lie, all human beings? And is it okay to lie?

All people lie. The research varies. Some research says some people will lie 10 times within a conversation.

10 times? Like in one sentence or 30 minute conversation?

Hi, how are you? I'm great. How are you? Meanwhile, I just had a fight with my significant other. That's a lie. Had a fight with my significant other. So that would be a lie. Then also lying by omission is a big thing. People think that I have to say the lie for it to be a lie, but I can tell you a story and leave something out. That changes the context of the story. So now the story is not accurate. I mislead you. That is a lie. And actually the number one way people lie is by omission. Because most people don't like to lie. They're not comfortable with it. You know, it's not natural to us. It's work. It's a lot of, it's a lot of work. It's very hard.

Because you gotta remember what you said too, right?

You gotta remember it, you have to stick to it because you may have to repeat that lie again later on time. Oh my God. And it really is a credibility killer. It's just not worth doing. And so it's a lot of work to do cognitively. So it is actually easier to leave something out. I don't feel as bad. And then when you ask me, Louis, I say, oh, you know, I forgot to tell you that part.

And then you lose credibility.

If I lie like that, I may not lose as much. It's when people outright lie. And then, so you probably did some, outright lies that I'm not aware of.

Did you do this?

Yes or no? No, I didn't do it. Or how about this?

No, I didn't do it.

Yeah, right. No. That's like one of the indicators when people say their body doesn't match with doesn't match what they say. So they'll say no. Yes. Yeah. And so you'll see the body will do this. Like the body's in conflict with what they're seeing. It doesn't happen to everybody. It's everybody. Everyone is so unique and so different. And I think what popular culture likes to do is say, everybody will do this, everybody will do that. And that's just, it's false. And there's no easy way to read people. It's work. It's studying the person, understanding human behavior, knowing that person, paying attention to their mannerisms. So, like, when I speak, I use illustrators when I speak. So if I'm telling you a story, I went here last night, I did this, I saw that. Now you ask me something, you know, Evie, is this your favorite podcast? Which it is.

I don't know, I see what you're saying.

Right, but I start, you know, I put my hands down and I change my mannerisms. Now I'm stoic, I'm not moving. In fact, people who do lie tend to move less, actually. Because I'm working, I'm working, this is work. So I'm thinking I'm focused, So there's all those indicators that do help you kind of filter out what's going on with the other person.

So using body language and being more expressive hides the lie if you are lying?

If you're usually, not all, like I want to be, you know, 'cause some people that don't use a lot of maneuvers, they're always stoic. Sure, sure, sure. And so that's just what they are all the time. But if you have someone who is illustrative, who's always talking with their hands, and now you ask them a question that they're uncomfortable with or they want to lie to you about, you'll see less movement in the body.

What would be three questions if you could only ask three questions to a human being to figure out if they're telling a lie or telling the truth? How would you start those three questions? What would they be?

TED. T-E-D. Tell me, explain, describe. Then I would fill in the rest. Tell me what you did last night. Rather than who did you out with last night or were you with Sam last night? So tell me what you did last night. Explain to me how important this relationship is to you. Describe to me what you want in this business partnership. Those questions allow people to tell a story. So if you really want to read somebody, you want them to tell you a story. So the more I can get you to tell me a story, I hear you, I'm watching you, I'm getting your mannerisms down, everything. But then you're also telling me what is important to you, what is of value to you. And then when you do that, now I don't have to sit there and guess and figure out, oh, how should I start my business pitch with Louis? You already told me the things you like, and so I can come in and speak to you in an intelligent way. rather than trying to guess what to say. So ideally, when you start a conversation, and this could be for anything, it's not just catching a lie. This is really just trying to start a conversation. TED, tell me, explain, describe. You start big. You get people talking and telling you stuff, even though you're like, I want to know this specific thing. But if I ask this specific thing, this person's going to shut down on me. So I can't go straight for that. So what you do is you narrow it. You get closer, you go from vague to more accurate to more accurate to then in the end you get to that direct question because you've worked them to that point. So for example, if you had a case where somebody was murdered or killed, right? And you had a suspect, you wouldn't say, Did you kill her? You would never say that. In fact, you wouldn't get there till maybe two hours into the conversation. That's like you get there, it's over time. Because it's a serious thing. It's an ugly word. And I might not even say, did you kill her? Did you hurt her? Did you harm her? Did something happen? And I would get you-- so I would never ask it that way. You get the person to give you admissions. Like, for example, yes, I was there. I was at the house. Or yes, I did this. You know, you want them to give you a little bit, and then eventually you get more admissions, more admissions.

Interesting.

You start to paint a picture, and then you never actually have to ask them, Did you kill? They eventually tell you.

So you were at the scene. You were there at the same time. You were holding the knife.

They tell you all of it. But you walk them through that process.

Interesting.

And so when you watch these TV shows or when you ask somebody a direct question and you want a direct answer and you don't get it, this is why. It's work. It's a lot of work to connect with people, read people. And I think that's why, and I think society makes it seem like do these three tricks and you'll have people eating out of your hand in it. It doesn't work. It's not true. And this is why people struggle because they're looking for the easy way. when it's really about human behavior, the person across from you, like understanding them, being curious. Curiosity is wonderful. So let them tell you stuff, ask questions because you're curious, and then you'll get more information rather than trying to go for exactly what you want to know. And then the other thing too that helps with conversations is something called adaptability. which a lot of people don't have. Like, if I have a conversation with you and I specifically want to know one thing, but you want to tell me a whole other story around it, people don't have the patience. And so, like, no, no, no, no, no, we're talking about something else. Like, stick to the topic. And when you do that, you break rapport, you hurt the conversation. So a part of it is being patient. Let them take you a little bit on a journey and then slowly you can bring them back to where you want. But sometimes we come in so rigid, no, no, I have to talk about this. This is the topic and you're not able to adapt. So adaptability is being, is allowing a person to take you where they want to go, letting somebody sit in the driver's seat for a little bit.

So you're telling me when my girlfriend is arguing with me about one thing but then doesn't want to address it and takes it around the The playground of all these other conversations, I get to listen to all those things to get it back to where I want to go to.

Perhaps.

As opposed to say, Babe, let's just focus on the problem right here.

Well, it sounds actually like your girlfriend is actually more of an identity-based person.

What does that mean?

Okay, so there's instructional, there's identity. So if I'm talking to you and I want to tell you, you know, you want to tell me basically, Evy, if you stop talking to this person, your life will be easier, right? You know, cut this person out of your life, right? And I'm like, no, I want to tell you how I feel. No, this makes me feel this way. This makes me feel that way. But you don't know, and you're just.

Kind of like, all you have to.

Do is cut them out of your life. Cut this person out of your life. Or all you have to do is this one thing, problem solved. You are instructional. Let's just get to the point. What do we got to do to fix it? One, two, three, done. Identity is, I don't want to hear that. I want to take you on the journey with me to tell you how I feel. This person, or when we are in that space, this means this person just wants to tell you how they're feeling. They want to tell you about their identity. What's happening is about their identity. So she doesn't want your solution. She doesn't want you to tell you what to do. She wants you to listen to her. And so just It's not even about solving it. And so I think that's another place where we get stuck. Like, here's the solution. And it's like, no, no, I don't want that. And you're like, but you're telling me you have this problem if you just do this. You're instructional, their identity.

What are you?

I'm typically instructional. I'm very like, just tell me what I need to know. I don't need to go through the circle. But when I speak to other people and I realize that their identity or in that moment, They want to tell me this whole story and I'm just like, Dude, all we got to talk about is one little thing problem solved. I let them go.

Wow.

If you have the patience. It depends what the topic is, but she's identity-based. So I think every time you talk with her, if you see that she's like not wanting to get to the point and figure out the solution where she just wants to tell you about her feelings, how this makes her feel, or how this hurts her, or If it's about her, her identity, then that's what she's doing. It's not about the solution.

Whether you were in the Secret Service doing an interview or an interrogation or in the real world now, I guess that is the real world, but after now, what are the social cues or psychological behaviors, body language, responses that people have before you take the polygraph test to know whether or not they're actually telling the truth. What are those few things that you would see? We talked about the body language. Are there other things that would happen, social cues or behavior?

It was interesting, everybody would assume that the polygraph was the lie detector. Like you just ask the question, come on in, have a seat, Louis, let's hook you up. Did you steal when you were a kid? Did you steal that gum or did you steal that? And then it just tells me everything. And it doesn't really work that way. Typically the lie detector is the person. So you sit across from a person, you have a conversation. And as we're discussing something, let's say you're applying to US Secret Service, we'll.

Make you a recruiter.

Okay, give it to me. And so we're asking you all these questions about your education, your background, drugs, whatever it is. And let's say we get to, I say to you, Louis, did you ever steal anything? And so now I look at, are there any shifts, are any changes? Do you change the direction? No. People are usually not at that obvious, you know, they're, but you can see, you can see something, you can feel it. It's also feeling people, I think that gets dismissed quite a bit, that it's not just see here, you know, it's like, it's also you can feel it. feel another human being. -You can, and it's intuitive and we should allow that and listen to that more rather than shut that down. But it would be, you know, if I would ask you that, I would hear the way you responded. Did you respond similarly to all the other questions the same way? Is your, you know, let's say if I said, Louis, did you ever, you know, I asked you all these other historical questions and you're like, no, no, no. And then I say, Louis, did you, Have you ever stolen anything? Absolutely not. So now something like that, as small as that, I may mark that. I was like, okay, he said no, no, no for everything else, but here he said absolutely not.

Interesting.

Why is it a bit more emphatic?

He cares more about either protecting something or that it actually isn't the truth.

Maybe.

He doesn't want that to be out of his hands.

But I will notice that it's different. That you did something different, even if you Now, it could be a very subtle thing or you might not give me anything. There are some people and I've had those people where it's just like poker.

Face all the way through.

Some people, but they'll, I don't want to say they're professional liars, but some people would come in, especially if it was a criminal case. And they're guarding the truth really hard and you have to try to figure out what that is. Or some people come in and it's, I swear to God, God knows I would never do that.

On my mom, on my grave.

Those are usually red flags unless it's a culture or a person who typically does it. If they always say, I swear to God, I swear to my mom, then it would be like, look, this is part of this person's natural language or maybe in their culture they refer to God quite a bit. But if it's not, and then you start doing that, then again, that's a red flag. So that's what you're really looking for rather than we have some of these cookie cutter things. It's like, everybody does this, everybody does that. Now are these things I'm talking about indicators? They are. But you may do them and I may not. I may do something else.

What do you do when you lie?

Oh, I do when I lie.

We all lie at something, right?

We do, I do.

Small or big?

My husband's like, did you have a donut this morning? No.

What do you lie about the most? Professional or personal and what in each category? Maybe like if I'm mad.

'Cause I have a pretty bad temper. So it's like, oh no, I'm fine. You know, and I'll, because sometimes I'll know, I'm like, you know, I have a temper and sometimes I know I'm being irrational and I don't want to open up a whole conversation. So I'll just be like, no, I'm okay. I'll leave it 'cause I'll know it's me. I'm trying to think, what do I, I lie about. Maybe work, if it's a project I don't wanna do. But usually, that's what you have agents and managers for, 'cause they do it for you.

Sure.

They shut it down for you. I'm trying to think. I mean, we all lie, but I try to keep it like, usually for me it's like, 'cause I'm like a, you know, I like donuts and I like things, cookies, I like things, so my husband's like a health fanatic. so he'll be like, how'd you eat today? You know, I was like, oh, it was okay. I was pretty solid, you know? Oh, okay. So he'll know what I'm trying to say.

Is there such a thing as person being radically honest all the time?

No, I don't. I've never. I've not come across that. But I think here's the thing. It's okay to lie because. Have you ever been very, very, very honest, maybe with. a person and then felt afterward, you know, I don't, you feel a bit exposed and you feel like, you know, I wish I didn't share this much with this person. Afterward, you kind of have that remorse because we feel like it's a protection mechanism. I don't want to tell you everything about me. I don't want to be an open book. And so I may, and it may not be alive. So by omission, so in the meeting, if somebody's pitching me a project or I'm talking about something, I don't like it or I don't like the direction it's going. I may not say, I don't like this. I may say, Thank you. Let me think about that. Meanwhile, I want to say, no way. I'm not doing it. That's terrible. So that technically would be a lie. I'm like, you know what? Thank you. I'd let me think about that. But I know I can't respond the first way. Shuts people down. That's why I feel like we hear people say, say no. you know, being able to say no to people more so because a lot of us have- To protect your time.

Your space, your energy.

Yes. And that's wonderful. But don't say no. Find other ways to say no. No is ugly. No is mean. No is hurtful. So I can say, Thank you so much. I'll let you know. I'm not really sure if I'm able to. Let me think on that. Find alternative ways to let people down.

Why is that?

To preserve the relationship.

Because when you say no to someone, even if it's a friend, they might take it personally. It stings.

It stings, right? Why are you saying no to me? Why do you have to say like that? You can say, you can reject people in a thoughtful way, in a professional way, and it just, it depends. Do you care about the relationship? And if you do, your no, your hard no, can hurt people's feelings. People become sensitive because you're rejecting them. And so I'm going to think of a different way to say no that's not going to impact you as much. It's really using language thoughtfully. So for example, you brought up lying. I love that. And you said, you know, when I was a kid, I lied. So I would never say to you, Louis, you're a liar. Or, Louis, no, Louis, you're lying to me. I would say, Louis, I know you're not being truthful with me. Louis, you're holding something back from me. Sounds different. So it's the same way with language. We don't, we throw our words out and we don't realize that they land on someone. And so then we scratch our heads wondering, why did this conversation not go well? It's this person's the problem. When we don't have the ability to think about how did I deliver this? So if it's a business relationship that's important to you, but you want to say no to this, you want to think of a great way to say no. Do we want to think about how do we let people down without hurting their identity? Going back to identity.

Was there ever a time when you were interviewing or interrogating someone and you didn't believe them ever, but they were telling 100% the truth?

Oh my God, you just reminded me of this case.

You're just like, I know this person is lying to me, but at the end of the day, everything he said was pretty true or almost 100%.

This was I've never, I had, it was such a simple case and it was not even for a lot of money. It was an ATM scam. This man was going to ATMs and he was taking, stealing money. Somebody would go in, use their credit card, he'd come from behind, take money. Very simple. On the ATM, like put him up.

With like a gun or something?

No, no, no, just follow them in. There's these little skimmers that they put on top of the machine. So when you scan your card, that it would pick up your information as well and then you could go. There's all these different scams. So, but when you go to the ATM, there's a camera there. It's got your full picture. So I have a picture of this guy, my perpetrator. It's a picture of him. I see him, his face. He's wearing a hat. He's wearing a New York Knicks hat. And I was like, here's my guy. All right, you know, I've got it. All I gotta do is lay the picture on. So he shows up for his interview wearing the same New York Knicks hat. So I start speaking to him, I don't take out my evidence, right? 'Cause I'm saving that. 'Cause I'm, that's my, that's my evidence. She knew this is a slam dunk. This is a slam dunk. I was like, and he didn't even steal a lot, $500, it was something. Small. I don't know how it landed in my lap, but it did. And sir, you took the money. No, no, miss, I swear to God, I would never do that. Sir, we have this, so I'm doing this with him for like 15 minutes. And this was a mistake on my part. We have evidence, we have proof, we have video footage of everything. No, never me, never me. And I pull out, I think I'm being slick. I pull out my photo of him, boom, right on the table. Who's that, sir? Right, and I'm sitting there, I'm all smug, I'm like, I got this guy. And he takes it, and he looks at it, he's like, looks like me. Yeah, he looks like me. He's not me. I was like, what? That's you. It looks like me, that's not me. Same hat, New York Knicks hat, the.

Guy'S wearing the hat right now.

Yeah, no. And it was a craziest interview, and I remember it was for money, it was not for a lot of money. In fact, when it came to financial crimes, crimes that had to do with money, it was actually harder to get people to confess to those.

Why?

Less guilt.

Less guilt. They didn't hurt someone physically.

Yes.

They might have hurt them financially.

Yes. I'm at home, I'm sitting behind my computer, I'm in my fuzzy slippers. Or even if I'm doing it at the ATM, I'm not stealing from you, I'm stealing from the bank. But it's different when I walk by you and actually put my hand in your pocket. It's different when I go into your home and I assault you. So there's that level of guilt when it's money, and especially if you steal it from an institution, Yeah, who cares? Zero guilt. Those were the hardest to get. But yeah, that was my guy.

I will never forget it.

Sure. Was it him or was it not him? It was him. We arrested him anyway, 'cause we had the proof. But it's always great to get, it's always helpful to have a confession, because it really just kind of seals everything. You've got the evidence, you've got this, the person said it.

But he never agreed to it. No, no.

He said, Looks like me, but it's not me. No, same New York's nickname. Yeah, I don't know. I guess he's from New York. Who doesn't like the Knicks? He just, nothing. and you could see his face. Looks like me. I got nothing from him.

Really?

Yeah.

So he never actually told the truth, but it was, in fact, him.

Who was him? I mean, we had evidence. We had prints. We had all sorts of stuff. But yeah, no, he, you know, to the end. No, not me.

Could you tell?

Like-- I couldn't tell.

You couldn't tell he was lying or not?

I couldn't tell. No, he was so believable. But I knew going in that he was my guy.

Right.

So that's why, I was like, I know it's him, but it was just like stoic. And there's a moment I'm like, is it not him? Right? These are so good. You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Am I seeing this right? Turn the photo around. I'm like, no, no, it's him, it's him, it's him. No, no, this is you. So some people are that good. Some people are that good. They will, some people, and I think this is, look, this was also somebody.

Who committed a lot of crimes.

He was used to it. He's used to it. So certain people who are, who lie a lot usually become better at it, or they don't feel bad it becomes, become better at masking it. You obviously have a great conscience and so it bothered you and so all your tells were shown. You couldn't lie.

Yeah, it's like your heart is bumping, like your chest is tight, your throat is clenching, you're like, ugh.

It bothered you.

Yeah.

Which is a healthy thing. It's actually a healthy thing when it bothers you We tend to see in people who have sociopathic tendencies or antisocial tendencies, those people don't tend to be bothered. And so they can lie and can be quite calm about it because they don't feel that guilt. The majority of people will feel guilt. So the majority of people will feel the way you feel because you know it's wrong, you feel it. Whereas those individuals with those tendencies, They don't care.

What about a situation that you lied your way through where someone believed you? Is there a situation like that in the last three to five years where you lied about something you're not proud of maybe, or people believed you and more than just, oh, I'm having a good day, lie?

You know what I did? I could probably confess that this was so long ago. I went and got, it was back in the day, I got a money order from.

Western Union?

The post office.

Post office.

And you know, I was like young, I was a kid, I wasn't making a lot of money. I was in college. And so I asked for a money order for like $3.99. I pay, I get it. And then as I'm leaving, I see $4.99. And I'm like, oh.

100 bucks.

100 bucks. And I took it. And to this day, I remember it, it bothered me.

Really?

Yeah. It bothered me.

Did it bother that you didn't tell the truth right then and say, Hey, you guys gave me- no, I took the money. Yeah. I took the money.

It bothered you that you lied about it? Statute of limitations, I think I'm okay. I took the money. It bothered me afterward because I knew it was, I knew it was wrong.

I will tell you this one story. We went- Did that come up in the Secret Service interview?

Did you ever steal something, like money, when you were younger? You know what I did lie about and did come up in my Secret Service interview, I'll tell you that. When I applied for the job, when I went to college, my parents, and I love my family, they weren't very supportive. They weren't very supportive of my decisions. My dad was a bit difficult. They didn't really want me to go. And so when you apply for college, you need their paperwork, their tax paperwork. I needed aid. They couldn't afford it. And so my dad was so upset with me He wouldn't give me his tax paperwork.

To go to college?

Yeah. They didn't agree with my decisions because I was going to private school that they could not afford. And I was like, I'll figure it out on my own. But either way. And so I lied when I went to the school. I said, I can't get this tax paperwork. You know, the main person was there is like, well, you think you can't get aid? And so I went back to the school later on and I said, I'm not living at home. I'm alone. Can I get aid? I can't get access to this tax paperwork. And then I got aid. So I flat out, yup, I lied. And I spilled the beans in my polygraph. I was like, I told them, this is what happened. I said, I lied to get financial aid. Because I couldn't qualify for aid. And so I was like, you know, they didn't care that I was like, look, my dad, my mom, they won't give me their tax paperwork. They're so upset with me. They don't agree. with my decision to go to this school to do this. And they're like, no, unless you don't have your parents in your life, I was just like, I was like, I'm going to college. Yeah. And I lied, but in my polygraph, I was like, I have to tell you something. Actually, I said it before they hooked me up. And I said, look, I lied about this. I did this, you know, like, why did you do it? I was like, I wanted to go to college. I couldn't get money to go to school.

So I was okay. I got the job. Wow. How many things did you tell, did.

You confess to before you took the polygraph? that was my biggest thing. Yeah. That was my thing. Drugs, like I never had, despite growing up in New York, I never had any issues. I always stayed away from it, I think because I saw so much around it, of that around me, and the more people kind of put it in my face, the more I was kind of like, I'm not doing that. But probably it would have been the opposite. If nobody did it, I'd be the one to be like, oh, I'm gonna try this. I think that was the biggest thing. It weighed the heaviest. with me because I was like, I did this bad thing. I lied on my financial aid paperwork to get aid. I'm hoping the statute of limitations has expired on that as well. I paid back all my loans.

I'm sure it's fine, yeah.

I paid back all my loans.

When you're in an interrogation or an interview, or you're on a first date, or you're at a job interview in your career, or any type of first interview with any situation, What's the best way to build command authority and credibility?

Yeah, so you can do very simple things like when you greet someone hi, how are you? Come on in. Why don't you use the bathroom before we get started? So I'm not asking you would you like to use the bathroom? I'm telling you why don't you go use the bathroom? Why don't you have something to drink? What can I bring you? Right? So I'm In this subtle way, I'm telling you to go to the bathroom and you're gonna go because of the way I said it. Why don't you go to the bathroom? No, no, go before we get started. You just said authority. Why don't you have something to drink? Oh, no, I'm good. No, have something to drink.

We're gonna be here for a little bit. Have something to drink.

So now I'm planting these little seeds telling you I'm in control. I'm not telling you, but I'm doing it subtly. Have a seat there. You know, you can show me where to sit. Or on the flip side, you could also practice something called autonomy, where you let somebody choose their own seat. And that's a different tactic. So there's two tactics here.

Where would you like to sit? Yeah.

Where would you like to sit? So you may use that on me if you want to talk about a topic that I don't want to talk about. And so autonomy makes me feel like I have a choice. You let me choose where I'm going to sit. because you're gonna let me have it later. You're gonna try to push me on something later.

I gave you something now, the law of reciprocity means you give me something later.

Exactly. But also autonomy though, it's actually also not reciprocity, it's actually more of I feel in control. Because we don't like to feel like we're not in control. So if you wanna talk about something where I'm really uncomfortable, I don't feel like I'm in control, I will give you control. elsewhere. So I will give you control in picking where you want to meet. I will give you control in what time. I will give you control in where you want to sit. Little things like that you can do where that person has autonomy to choose. We can do it here. We can talk about this or we can talk about this. Which would you prefer? That's, nobody likes to feel like they don't have control. So a way that you can deal with a resistant person is by giving them some level of control.

When you're going on a first date, and you've been maybe in an abusive relationship in the past where you were a doormat, you were walked on, you had no control, no authority, the person that you were in a relationship with walked over your boundaries, took advantage of all that, and you've had time to heal and now you're getting back out there.

Yeah.

How can that person create a great dating experience in that first date to put themselves more in the driver's seat with some authority and not a doormat mentality?

All right. So there's two things. I think the first thing is don't take out on that person what was done to you by somebody else.

That's the worst.

They're just, you know, because we've all been victims of things to some degree, right? and let's say even if it was, it was abusive, it was horrible, it was that, it is also not fair to take that out on an innocent person, like to take your trauma out to someone else. And sometimes we can feel trauma elsewhere and then project it onto someone else who didn't cause that to us. So I would say that's the most important, most important thing because it will allow you to connect. The other thing I will say is The majority of people tend to trust. When we have relationships with people, we tend to go and trust people. So when someone says something to you, you tend to believe it.

We believe it.

The average person- why is that? We're just engineered that way. And I don't even know why that is, but we tend to sway towards trusting the person in law enforcement, actually. It's the opposite. Law enforcement, Officials are notorious for thinking people are deceitful. So the average person believes people are honest, law enforcement believes people are deceitful because they deal with more people who lie. But that causes a problem elsewhere because when you do have innocent people, we're telling the truth. They're telling you the truth and then you get false confessions, you get problems, you're looking at the wrong person because you're confirmation bias. That's a whole other animal over there. But knowing that we tend to give people, we tend to believe people automatically, just hold a little bit of that back.

Believe less?

Just be more reserved in how much you trust.

Discerning about it, yeah.

Yes, just don't put it all out on the table. Oh my God, this guy's great or gal's great. I just connected with them. And then what we do, we go nose in. And so you don't want to give unconditional trust. Unconditional trust is like I give you now trust across the board. I trust you in everything. When you start dating someone or any new relationship, even in business, always conditional trust. I'm not going to trust you all the way. I'm going to trust you part of the way. So now here's the thing. We love to trust unconditionally, which is probably why we tend to just want to give people trust. It's less work. I could just turn my brain off. I can trust you, Louis. Great story, yeah. Louis asked me anything you want, 'cause you asked me in the beginning, Is there anything off the table? I'm like, no, Louis, go ahead and ask. But you give that person unconditional trust, and I don't have to think so hard. I don't have to worry if you're gonna manipulate me. I don't have to be on my guard. It's easy. It's easier that relationship. Conditional trust means I have to be a bit more careful. So it's like me going to buy a car. I know I'm dealing with a car salesman. I know I should be careful. It's just understood that they try to get you to buy certain things, they use certain language. So when I go in, I go in with conditional trust. And so I'm better protected. That's why there you're less likely to get hurt in those situations where you understand, I can't fully give everything to this person. I can't fully trust them conditionally. I can, so I, excuse me, unconditionally. So I have to, Just be careful. The thing is, that's work. It's a lot of work. We get tired. We access a specific part of the brain when we do that, a more complex part of the brain. So that's why unconditional trust, you don't want to give it right away. And that is why when we get betrayed by people close to us, that's why it hurts most. It's usually by people who betrayed us on who we give unconditional trust to.

Yeah.

That's my advice for dating.

That's when it stings. Would you use the same approach if, let's say you're, you know, I haven't been on a first date in forever, but let's say you're on a date, your first date with someone, would you say, Hey, why don't you have some water? Why don't you use the restroom first?

Where would you like to sit? Would you do the same approach there? I would not, because I don't want to establish authority there. That's not, if you're looking to have a relationship, I would not do that. That's creepy. That's a controlling and unhealthy relationship.

What should you establish? Trust.

I think rapport and trust, and I think probably the best thing you can do is just not talk about yourself and listen to that other person. Just ask about them.

What would be the-- you- did that.

To me when I walked in.

Yeah.

I was like, Evie, boom, boom, boom, boom.

I was like, what would be the three most fascinating questions someone could ask on a date? first date that would not be interrogational, but be connecting questions.

Ted, tell me about yourself. Explain to me what your dreams are. Describe to me what your hopes are. Don't create a question because you may ask a question that you think is fascinating and they're gonna look at you like, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You don't, right? Because you don't know what they think like, what they with their aspirations or.

With their-- We're on a hypothetical first date. What would you say to me using.

The tell me about your podcast. I'd love to hear all about it. Ooh, okay. Explain to me how you got into that. Describe to me like what it's like when you interview all these different people. I'm gonna shut up and I'm gonna let you go, Louis. Because now I get to hear you, I get to see what you're like, your values, your beliefs, what excites you, what doesn't excite you. Excite you. You're gonna tell me about why you started it, you're going to tell me about your background, what got you into it, any growing pains or heartaches or how this happened. You're going to tell me about your favorite guests, you're not favorite guests, you're going to tell me about the amazing things you learned or maybe some of the things that you were like, I can't believe I brought this guest on. And so now you just opened up this world and I had to do.

No work and I can just listen. These are more indirect questions, is that right? Or open-ended questions. So don't ask a direct question. Who is your favorite guest? Don't say that.

I would tell me about your guests. And then I would allow you to naturally tell me on your own because you feel like you're in control and it's more likely that you will tell me on your own. But if I ask you directly, and if you want to protect the integrity of the people you interview, because you don't want to say, this is my favorite guest to make it public, because then it's going to hurt the people that come on the show, right? Your clientele, so to speak, your guests. So I would, you're not gonna answer it. You're gonna be reluctant. Oh, Evie, I love everybody.

It's like my kids, you know?

You can't say you have a favorite kid. It's all your kids. You're gonna say that. It's like when people ask me, who's your favorite president? I always say, I love 'em all. They're all, I love protecting all of them. But if somebody says, Tell me about the people you protected, or Tell me about the presidents you protected, now I feel comfortable. I'm in control. I'm talking. the more we talk, the more we leak, I'm less guarded, it's less direct, I don't even know you're trying to find that, and I may naturally on my own get there.

Tell me about a characteristic of a president that wowed you the most.

Hmm. You know.

You like that opener? You like that opener?

I might use Ted on me.

A characteristic from one of the presidents that you were just like, obviously they're all inspiring in some way, I'm assuming, for you, but tell me about a characteristic or a belief, a mindset, an approach, a strategy that one of them used that wowed you.

I liked, there's a couple, there's like little things. I'll tell you, former President George Bush Sr. He used to write note cards to everybody. He had a little, he wrote note cards, thank you so much, he would just send little note cards to people. and I saw what an impact that made to people to receive a handwritten note. He hand wrote it from someone saying, thank you, I appreciate you. And to this day, I do that. And I took that from President George Bush, 'cause I saw that and I was like, what a wonderful thing. And I saw how much of an impact that did. It was a very little thing, but I took that from him. So whenever I meet someone, or if there's an exchange or something, I will write a handwritten note card. Thank you for your time. I appreciate it. And it does a lot.

Could he write you a card?

He did not write me a card. He wasn't my full-time protectee, but I watched.

Yeah, you watched him actually write it for other people.

Yeah.

Or you saw other people get it.

Both. You would see them when they would work and you would know what they did or didn't do. But that's what he did. Hmm. Another characteristics. I think I liked President Obama. I liked the way he spoke. And for me, that was very, I appreciated that because I, although I was an agent and an interviewer, I didn't know how to speak for myself. It's weird, right? I could speak on behalf of the government and the law and all that, but I never paid attention to the way I spoke to people and what I loved. You could hear him. You could hear him. Usually you call Renegade, I could say it, it's public, it's in his book, Renegade on the Move, right? You could hear the agents say that, but you could hear him. You could hear him, you could, I love the way he echoed his voice and projected his voice and didn't hold it back. And how he took his time to speak, where a lot of people speak very fast because we feel that we're not worthy of somebody's time. I don't want to take up too much of your time, so I'm going to speak fast. We do that. We feel like, let me just hurry up and say this. This person's probably busy. They have things to do. And then he really projected his voice. Like it boomed through the hallways. And that was a person who was not shy of being present, of taking a space and letting you know I'm here and my voice is relevant. I like that.

That's powerful.

Yes.

Any other characteristics from anyone else?

There's so many.

The ones that wowed you, that stood out.

They all did. They were all great. George Washington.

Oh my God. How old are you?

GW, President George Bush, he, I love going to the ranch with him. I'm from New York City. I go to Texas. And I was just like, what? It was like we were out in the wild. He's like, we're going, we're gonna make trails. I was like, why are we gonna make trails? There's a road right there. We'd cut trails and hike. And he was very authentic. Who he was on camera was who he was off camera and vice versa. He was very just real. And so you'd see these qualities with different people. And, you know, it's kind of interesting. I just thought of it. I was almost like in my own school of greatness by being in the White House. And then over all the years of about, you're around all these people, these influential leaders, despite, forget politics, it still takes a person of some-- To get there. Yes, to get there. And so you watch them. And then not just them, they've got cabinet members. other individuals who, you know, you watch and you listen to, you see how they problem solve. And I was in my own school of greatness where I just got to be front row and you're doing your job. At the same time, you're like, you're listening, you're watching, you're absorbing. I loved it.

Were there any strategies you witnessed or watched or observed from them telling you or not telling you on how they commanded respect and authority? and just their way of being, tonality, was it touching people on their hand, is it whatever it is, eye contact, what were the things that they did or that some of them did that really stood out to you?

So I'll tell you this, they didn't have to work as hard.

Because they're already the authority.

Because they're already the authority. So you don't, so I want to say that, like they don't, the president can look at you and be like, hey, how you doing? And then like blow you off and you're like, oh my god, I got like a whole solid second. Whereas when they're talking to me or you, it's just like, you only give me a second, right? So they don't have to work as hard. So even the little attention they give you lands on you. However though, eye contact is huge. When you talk to someone and you want to convey, you want to convey, hey, trust me. And rapport, this is huge. In fact, if you go to the supermarket and you look at cereal boxes, They have cartoon, the characters on the cereal boxes. They're looking at you. You know where a lot of them look down? They're looking down. You know who they're looking down? You'll see cereal boxes where the character looks down. At the cereal. No, I'm a cereal box, right? I'm the Trix rabbit or whatever, right? Now, you go shopping, I'm not looking.

At you, I'm looking down.

Why am I looking down? The rabbit's looking down.

Right, the rabbit's looking down.

Thank you.

Wow.

'Cause the kid's the consumer.

Yeah, not the adult. No, come grab me.

Mom, buy that for me.

Oh my God.

So they designed them to actually look down and they also put them at a certain level. And so maybe in adult cereal, they'll have the person looking at higher up because they're looking at the adult. Eye contact is huge. It conveys trust me, talk to me, I'm here, I'm connected with you. Even when you want to listen to people, Normally we do break eye contact, but good communicators will lock in. They're not uncomfortable. They're there. I'm with you. I'm connected with you. That is huge. But you touched on literally touching people and you would see a tactic. I don't want to say a tactic, but no, it's a tactic. It's a strategy. It's a strategy. It's, you know, Hey, you know, Louis, and you know, and maybe I like to touch your forearm. Yeah. You can do that. But I will say today-- you- can't do that. Today is very different. You know, they would teach us that. They're like, hey, you can touch the top of a person's knee and just be like, hey, and I could be like, whoa, unwanted touch. So now I would actually go against that. I would actually encourage people not to do that just simply because you don't know how it's going to be received. And now today it's-- you got to be a little bit less is more with that.

Yeah, I mean, shaking your hand, maybe.

That'S it for-- I think so.

A second hand on the top, like a genuine heartfelt for two seconds and then let it go.

Yeah, I think so. I think so. You want to respect people's space. It's a little bit different. I think we have more, well, we do have more social space now. And it's interesting how that's going to change the dynamics of how we interact in the future.

Interesting. How do you build that trust without being present and more connected and touching and.

Right. And you have a mask. You can't even see the lower portion of a person's face, which conceals their expressions, their gestures, so it's even harder to read them.

So how do we read people like that? Is it more body language than of like shoulders down as opposed to- It's harder.

In person is always better. And obviously, if you're on Zoom, you can see the person, but the tone, inflection of the voice, does it change? Does it not? The body posture. Again, sometimes it's just as simple as how they say something, you know, the way they deliver a story. For example, when I worked cases sometimes I did interviews and interrogations and I would be asked to help local police departments sometimes. And they'd say, look, we have this case and we've got three suspects, but we can't figure out who it is. And I'd always want to interview the person I thought it was. And so I would say, send me, do you have statements? And they say yes. And I'd say, send me the statements that they wrote.

Written statements.

Written statements.

About what they said, their story is.

Their story is. Correct. Because these are people typically that had been already interviewed by local police. They got nothing, they have no proof, so they would reach out and they say, look, you guys are polygraph examiners. You have a bit more expertise in this. Will you help us out? It's an important case. And so I'd say, send me their statements. And so I'd look at their statements, and based on their statements, I would be able sometimes, most of the time, to tell who likely did it. And it was those statements that, and this also happens when we tell a story, when we speak, when you ask somebody, what did you do yesterday? When they deliver a beautiful story to you that has a beginning, every two minutes, yeah. And an end, it's an arc. When it's a story, it's an arc. It's typically manufactured. That's a lie, usually. Yes, because we don't typically talk about our stuff like that. And so when I would read a story, I would read a statement, and if I read like a story, because the person's like the liar is like, oh, I gotta write a story. I gotta tell them what I did here, then did here, they're manufacturing it. A truthful person is gonna write how their day went. And a truthful person also makes spontaneous corrections. So it contradicts what a lot of people think in that if I correct myself as I'm telling you something, then.

It looks like I'm hiding something.

Then I'm, I looks like I'm, yes, I'm correcting myself because I'm hiding something I can't remember my lie. And it's actually not true.

Those were the honest ones. Yes, actually that was a mistake.

It's a spontaneous correction. When it's unsolicited and somebody you're speaking to, or even in writing, you'll see a scribble. It's okay. If it's a spontaneous correction, meaning they're correcting themselves as they're speaking to you, it indicates truthfulness. That's an interesting little... Yes. And also too, like a little one, when somebody uses quotes when they talk to you, they'll say, oh, he said, and quote, you know, they'll tell you something somebody said in quotes, like he.

Said, you know, this in quotes, That's also truthful. The air quotes.

The air quotes.

When someone uses that, not on the written paper quotes, but the air quotes.

Oh, even in both, yes.

Someone uses quotes, and I repeat, they said this, that means they're telling more likely the truth.

Yes, truth.

Why is that?

Because they're being very specific. We also know, based on the research, people who lie lie vaguely. Remember I said, it's work, it's hard work, It's you're trying to create a lie, tell a lie, remember the lie, listen to the person speaking to you, think about what you want to say. There's so much going on. And so what they do is they lie vaguely because it's too hard for me to remember all these details, create all these details. It's just too much. It's a heavy cognitive load.

I heard one time in one of these books or somewhere that when you say, I did not, as opposed to I didn't do it, When you're like more specific of like, I did not do this, is that generally speaking more untruthful?

So, again, I'm taking him up on.

The famous president that said, I did not commit these sexual relations.

Well, we know he was dishonest. But okay, so you said that statement. I did not. And so it is true most people, like when, did you have pizza this morning for breakfast? No. You're not gonna be like, Evie, I did not have pizza this morning for breakfast, right? You're not gonna work so hard. So when people lie, they work very hard sometimes to sell you the lie.

Telling the full story.

Think of a car salesman. How hard do they work you? Like, oh, you gotta get this. This is great. So when people work that hard, it's likely that there's some deception there. But if I'm just like, no, and go pound sand, I didn't do it. And I don't, you know, the truth is typically simple. No. But if that person, though, in their everyday speech always speaks like that, that's where you want to be careful, because maybe I'm that person who does that. Or another thing that people say are to be weary of is, like, when people start off with a sentence saying, honestly, Honestly, I would never do that.

Truthfully, this would never happen.

Right, but if I use that in my conversation, I sprinkle that all the time into the way I speak. If it's part of my language, then I'm not lying. It's just the way I color my language.

That's why it's good to use the TED approach to talk for 20, 30 minutes to see how they normally talk. Their expression, their mannerisms.

What are their mannerisms? And you can ask them truthfully, truthful questions about, oh, you know, something where maybe they have to remember something, tell you something like that, you know, is truthful rather than just how they feel. And that's, you know, that'll give you indication of like, so you know for sure they're telling me the truth here. You know, oh, tell us about how it was coming in this morning. Or something very simple. You can ask questions that are benign. They don't evoke anything.

It's not a yes or no answer.

No, they don't evoke anything. However though, evocation, so we're rolling into all these techniques, it's very good when you have someone who's reluctant to speak with you, when you want to evoke emotion. So when you have somebody that's shut down on you, I may call you a liar because I want you to give me something because you're giving me nothing. And so this is why it's so important to TAD people. or to know the person you have across from you because if I have a resistant person, I'm going to speak a certain way. If I have a high conflict person, I'm going to speak a certain way. If I have a business relationship and they're amicable, I'm going to speak a different way. If I have someone who's identity based, this is why really paying attention to the human being across from you matters. Once you do this and then you're going to know, you're going to start Ticking people like, up, identity, up, instrumental, up, high conflict, and then you know how to maneuver. Interesting. What?

What could you test on me right now to see whether I'm lying or telling the truth? About something, maybe not some crazy thing, but just- I can, it won't work.

Because you're telling me to do it, you're prepared for it. That's where we win this. Interesting. Yes, it doesn't work. It won't work, it never works.

Never works.

Interesting. No, because you know you're ready. Yeah. You're gonna lie, you're gonna lock in, you're gonna do everything I just taught you.

Well, my goal would be to tell the truth and to see if you actually believe it or not.

It has to be organic.

Gotcha.

And it can't be manufactured and it's, and I wouldn't go straight for it. I would, you know, maybe if I wanted to know about your past criminal history. Sure, sure. When you were younger, sure. And there was something that you were, maybe one of those things you really didn't wanna talk about and I knew it. then I would try to build rapport and get you to speak about it. Or I'd ask you, why don't you want to speak about it? Because sometimes I would have someone and they're like, look, I don't want to talk about this. And I would say, okay, why don't you want to talk about this? It's okay, you don't have to tell me what it is, but why don't you? And sometimes that was a great way for me to open the door. So if I had somebody who would not confess to a crime, you know, or whatever. And I might say, could you just tell me why you don't want to talk about this? Or what are you so worried about if this gets out? And I remember one case, one person said, I don't want my wife to find out. And that moment, I was like, he did it, he did it, he did it, he did it. Because he just told me why. If he didn't do it or she didn't do it, that wouldn't be in their mind. Yeah. And so people can tell you, so you can start there. Why don't you want to talk about this? Why do you feel this way? What are you worried about? And so that's a different angle for him instead of being like, tell me this, go back to how they feel. Go to identity. Tell me what it is you're afraid of. Tell me what you're so worried about. Why do you feel that you can't share this? You don't have to tell me anything. Just tell me what's going on with you. As long as I could keep somebody talking. That's it. You just got to keep them doing this.

What was your biggest fear as a, as an agent?

If we're talking interviews, there's two. If we're talking interviews, I never wanted an innocent person to confess to a crime they never committed.

Oh, man, that's, that's sad.

And I was always very, very, very careful. I actually aired on this side. This is I actually aired more so on the side. I gave more people benefit than the other way around, because to me it.

Was worse to have someone in jail who didn't do it. That is like the worst thing. It's gotta be the horrible for that person.

That was like something that I was very, very, very aware of.

How many people do you think are in prison or jail for something they didn't do right now?

A lot. I think quite a few. And I think we see it when you look at now the DNA testing that we do scientific testing that we do to see who gave false confessions, to see how people were manipulated and maneuvered. And it's not always because the interviewer is bad, it's because they tend to think, again, law enforcement tends to think most people are deceptive. You come in, Lewis is my guy, no, Lewis is my guy. So now no matter what you say, even when you are saying things that are showing your innocence, I'm still focused on you did it. So it's confirmation bias. No matter what you say, I'm gonna make it fit the narrative I want, which is you did it. And so that was a very important thing because I had seen it, I knew, yeah, that's tough. how you could do it. And I had people in the room, if they're young, if they're mental health issues, or sometimes you get people in weak moments, or sometimes people see you, you're law enforcement, you're the authority, you're police, I'm supposed to trust you, and they do. And they don't realize that the law allows for police and law enforcement to use deception in the room to get you to confess. It is legal. So I could say to you, what if I told you I have fingerprints? I got no fingerprints. What if I told you I have fingerprints? What if I told you that, what would you say? I'm lying, I'm using manipulation. And so some of that stuff, it's not, you know, there's a lot of research and science on this now. Like, it's not good. You don't want to lie to people. You want to try to stay, you really want to try to read them, understand them, and just get them to talk to you. And that's also important, not just with solving cases, but when you interview victims and witnesses. Sometimes the inability to interview somebody properly affects whether a case gets solved or not. So if I don't know how to effectively interview a witness or a victim, I can get bad information.

How tall are you?

5'2.

5'2. Mighty 5'2. When you went into the, when you went to be an agent, I'm assuming it was a lot of men when you were there in the start. Is that correct? Much taller, bigger in general, right? More than five two. Did you ever feel insecure or intimidated or a lack of self-confidence being in the position you were in?

No, and I don't know if it was maybe my dad, even though my parents had certain issues, but I don't know. I never thought about that. I never went in thinking, I shouldn't be here. I never went in, oh, I'm a woman. I went, I'm like, oh man, I'm the only woman good for me. I really had a different mindset. I was proud that, oh my God, there's only like, there's no other women. I'm like, good for me. If I went to a meeting. Yes. I was proud of that fact. So I never looked at it as a negative. Why? I'm the only woman. I was just like, I was just like, good job. So that's how I took it and I was proud of that. And so that kept me going, I didn't think about my gender, I just did my job. And look, will people treat you differently? Will that stuff happen? Yes, it will. Whether it's gender, race, that stuff happens. I don't care what anyone says, it happens. But I cannot alter myself and I cannot let you, who I know you're wrong anyway, impact me. and not do my job well because now psychologically you're in my head. I remember I went to, I usually don't share these stories, but I went to the Air Force Academy in Colorado. President Obama was gonna go speak. And I was the agent in charge of the outside perimeter of the stadium. And then I was there with several other agents and we're meeting the head person, he was a colonel, Lieutenant Colonel, Colonel in the Air Force, I don't remember. So it's me, all male agents.

There's about several of us.

And you were in charge. I was in charge of the outer perimeter. Yes, I was one of the two people in charge. There was the other agent was in charge of the inner perimeter and then everybody else worked for us. Not worked for us, they were supporting us. And so the Colonel comes and he comes in and so let's say, you know, here's everybody, here are all the agents, I'm in the middle. And the colonel comes and he's like, Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. And this legit happened. I'm right here and it's like-- no, he did not.

Nice to meet you.

He skipped you. He skipped me. And you were in charge. And he was-- he did, you know, it shouldn't have even mattered. And so it took everything in me.

To not be like-- you went over your head. He went over your head.

He skipped me. He skipped me.

The guy next to you, you, and.

Then the two of you-- He assumed that was either-- A secretary or staff or something. Because he's like, Hey, let me talk to the other.

I remember that and I was just.

Like, Does this just guy do this? I'm like, this guy just did this. I'm having an internal dialogue with me. I said nothing. I said nothing. I was like, It doesn't matter. I was like, He's gonna find out who's in charge in a couple hours. And he did. Hi, I'm the agent in charge of your outer perimeter.

Who's my counterpart and who do I speak to?

So he didn't take it personally. I didn't look dumb. He looked dumb. I think, why would I take it personally if somebody is ignorant enough to do that? And why would I want that person's attention or respect? In my mind, I was just like, you can keep all of that. I'm gonna go do my job.

I'm gonna do my job, yeah.

That's exactly. So you can't, at least for me, I never let it get in my head because it's like, I have a job to do, I have a mission to do. and if I get people, if I allow somebody to get in my head, people will die. Yeah, I'm not doing that.

Right. Were you ever nervous in interviews or interrogations?

In the beginning, I was worried about. I was worried about not being respected. I was worried about. Because I didn't want to be an interrogator. I did not want to be one.

Not being respected by the Perpetrator.

Perpetrator, not the team. Yeah, you're interviewing the team. Not your team, Secret Service team. No, because at that point, when I became an interrogator, I went to specialized training. They were scared of me because then I started doing the polygraphs for new recruits. And so they would tell me all their personal bad stuff that they did.

I had it all.

I had all the goods. And then six months later, they see me in the hallway and I'm like, hey, how you doing? And they're just like, oh my God, she knows All my dirty stuff. So no, after that, people were kind of like, hey, you almost like repel people. Yeah, yeah. But you know, you never speak about that stuff when people expose themselves like that to you. You don't do that. Right. So you got nervous a couple times in the beginning?

In the beginning, I didn't want to.

Be an interviewer or an interrogator because I thought nobody would respect me. I was like, these guys are gonna see me and they're gonna be like, the perpetrators. Yes, the perpetrators, because you're dealing with sometimes really hardened people. And they see you coming in and they're like, This girl?

Yeah.

And I was like, I really had in my head the image of something else and what you see on television. I didn't know. And afterward I realized that the idea that I didn't look intimidating and that they were not expecting me, they're like, oh, this is a piece of cake. And they sit back, like, what do you want to talk about? I say, Let's talk about anything you want. And then sure enough, admission after admission after admission, To the point like, hey, do you mind just writing all that down for me here? Right here. Thank you.

You have a confession. You probably did it. I mean, you're probably easier, you're less intimidating to look at, maybe, in terms of this big man that you see.

On TV, in your face. That stuff doesn't work, by the way. None of that works. It looks great for TV. In real life, male or female, when you impose yourself on someone like that to that extent, they shut down, they get nervous, they're intimidated, they may tell you anything, just to get you to leave them alone. Those are not good tactics. I'm not saying that they're not used by a lot of interviewers and law enforcement. I think they are, 'cause there's those moments where I'd do an interview with someone from another department, and I'd sit there and I'm like, this is not.

The way to do it.

It was rough sometimes, but you can't tell somebody, Hey, don't do this. I'm in your house. But there were moments where sometimes it was harder. So I usually would do them with either an experienced interrogator from my own agency because we knew how to work together. It's only like 30 of us. So you would, you know, I would say, I want this person for this. Or if it was like a child pedophile case, we had one guy who I knew was great. I'm like, I want that guy. If it was terrorism, I'd say, I want this guy because he's really good. And I say guy because they're mostly, mostly guys, not all, but even the female interrogators, we had some good ones. Yeah.

So, what was the time when you felt like, oh, I'm in trouble. I said the wrong thing. I messed up. It's about to go down the wrong way. Was there ever a time like that, or were you always pretty much in control?

I never felt like that because it's a conversation. I let it flow. It wasn't very rigid. If I have just an agenda and I have to go from here to here to here to here, that's where adaptability comes in. I didn't go in saying, Here's my plan, here's my agenda, and I have to follow this. Because I have to allow the person to go where they want to go. So I may ask them, what did you do last night? Tell me about your night. And now they're telling me about how every night they go to karate. And oh, let me tell you, I started doing karate. And they're telling me this whole other story. And I'm thinking, I don't want to know about how you started karate. I want to know about last night. But I would allow them that ability to do that. Or sometimes you have somebody who's worried about it, who's maybe angry that they're there. And I would have to allow them to talk about what they wanted, to get off their chest why they were angry, why they were there, what they were scared of, so that they could get it off their chest and then talk to me about it.

Interesting. Were the people that were angry mostly innocent or no?

Mix.

Mixed, yeah.

It was a mix. It would go where sometimes usually innocent people would be like, I'm done, I'm leaving. But then sometimes you'd have innocent people be like, no, if I keep talking and I tell the truth, they'll see it. So I can't say it was one or the other, but guilty people tend to like to stay in the room.

Why? Why?

Because I gotta convince you. I gotta get you off my back. Because you're not gonna go away. So you can get up and leave the room, but the investigation's still open.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm still looking at you, so their goal is to get you- Interesting.

To convince you.

Don't look at me anymore. Go look at this other guy. Let me throw some other people your way. And so that's the goal, so they would stay in the room. It's like the car salesman. Always think of the car salesman, working hard, working hard, working hard. I don't want you to look at me anymore. I want you to look at someone else because you're going to keep on coming back. If I could get you to look at this other person, now I'm good. So that's why they usually stay. They usually would not leave. Guilty people would stay.

And how would you influence people to trust you and believe you and like you?

I would be genuine. I would tell them the truth. Look, this isn't my case and often it usually wasn't. It's not my case. I was like, if you didn't do anything, you didn't do anything. If you did do something, I get it, we'll work through it. And I was like, I'm here to help in any way I can and to help facilitate. And so, you know, if you did do something and you're forthcoming and you tell me, I will talk to the prosecutors, I will talk to the investigators and I will tell them that you cooperative, and I would do that. I would keep my word. It doesn't hurt me. Like, it wasn't. It's not personal. None of my cases were personal. Because sometimes people would ask me, when you, when you were done interviewing someone, did you follow that case afterward? No, I was done. Moving on. You don't. I never invested myself personally because it's. I'm not supposed to. I'm supposed to be. And I really like this because they taught us this. in the service, you are an objective seeker of the truth. And I walked into every interview room saying, I am an objective seeker of the truth. So I don't care that everybody here is telling me he did it. You know, I'm going to give this person a chance. And I'm going to look at the evidence, of course. And if I have evidence, like my guy in the hat, who's like, oh, no, that's not me. I mean, he looks like me. What do you do with that? Where did you go? That was my heavy. And I dropped it early too. You're not supposed to drop evidence so early. You're supposed to hold it. That was my heavy. After that I had nowhere to go. No, yes it's you. No, it's not. But yes it's you. No, it's not. There's nowhere to go.

I lost that one. That one I lost. You seem like an extremely confident person from a scale from one to 10. 10 being very confident. In general of your life, what are you?

It fluctuates. In certain moments, I feel very confident and centered. In other moments, I'm like, what the? You know? It fluctuates. I think it depends on what it is, what you're going through, what you're dealing with. If it's family, like those scales, when it's family, all these composure things go, go out the window, right? We're all like a whole other thing. I think it depends on the situation, but there are moments where, sure, I may lack confidence, but sometimes I would go in and think maybe because I was in such a life or death type of job where I would be like, no one's holding a gun to my head. I'm not gonna die. I'm gonna go home after this. I don't fucking care.

Yeah.

And that's helped me more than anything. And my ability to curse usually internally cursing has actually given, gives me a lot of strength. There's actually science behind it that when you curse, whether outwardly or inwardly, it actually makes you, it empowers you. You know, so I'd rather be, I'd rather be like, you know, I've always, and I've always had that. Not that it's a good thing, but I always use, but try to use my inside voice instead of being like, what was me? This person's these people are doing this to me instead of like inside me and be like, them.

Right. You feel more confidence.

It shifts it.

Yeah.

Instead of me feeling like I'm a victim and I'm being preyed upon, it's just like, who do you know?

Screw that, yeah.

I think having that part of yourself and the ability to do that, not to intentionally actually hurt someone, but having that part of you inside you know, my colonel, right? When he did that, that's exactly what echoed inside my head. You know, I made sure I'm like inside voice, inside voice, inside voice. But I was like, it doesn't matter. Instead of me being like, if I let that impact me, then the rest of my assignment, every time I see him, I'd feel smaller. I'd be affected. And it was just like, this guy. Who's this guy? And that allowed me to. To do my job. So I think. For me, that's helped me quite a bit.

If someone listening or watching feels like they lack confidence in most areas of their life, what would you say is the way to overcome self-doubt and build confidence? Some things they could do.

Stop doing things that you're only comfortable with. Take risks. Make decisions. I think I've noticed that with people who lack confidence, they're quite indecisive. Indecisiveness is a big thing and what they will do is they will go take a survey and ask everybody around them, what do you think I should do? What do you think I should do? And you're asking a person who has no ability to, you're asking someone with no expertise about something. It'd be like, love mom, but it'd be like me asking my mom, hey mom, do you think I should do this TV show? And she'd be like, what did you say? What TV show? Oh, you're gonna be on TV? You know, like, I can't ask my mom about a TV business decision. She doesn't have the experience. I can ask her about something else, you know, that she does have experience in. But indecisiveness is key.

And- How does someone build decisiveness when they're indecisive?

You gotta start, you gotta stop asking people what to do and just do it. And then when you make a mistake, own it. Fall on your face. The more you fail, the more confident you become. You can't fear failure. I have failed, Louis, I don't even know. I feel so much. And I look at it, I'm like, all right. And once that happens, once the worst thing that could happen to you happens, and you are still standing, you are still there, you are still breathing, you're like, huh. That builds resilience. Indecisiveness, knock that out. The minute you're like, let me ask people, Stop. Choose. Don't worry about it whether you're right or wrong, just do it.

We gotta take risks, make decisions, fail often, choose. Anything else? An overcoming self-doubt that you've seen?

The way you talk to yourself in your head. Watch the language you use. Watch your mouth with yourself. So for example, I work out, and so there are moments Where it happens where I'm sitting on the sofa and I'm just like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to go run outside. I don't want to go to jiu-jitsu. I'm tired. I want to sit. I want to eat popcorn. I don't want to do anything. I want to watch Netflix. I will never say to myself, Don't be lazy. Get up. I'm not lazy. There is nothing about me that is lazy. Why would I ever say that to me? But I will say, If you move, get up.

Go.

And I may be bitching as I'm putting on my sneakers and- I don't want to do this. I hate this. Whatever. but I will be putting them on and doing it and then go. But I will never call myself names. And that's something I had to learn over time. Oh man, this was my entire childhood.

Was calling myself names. You're never gonna amount to anything. You're stupid. You suck. Why did you do that? Idiot. You know, all these things.

Even something as simple as like, oh, I'm such an idiot. What did I do? Why did I put that there? And I catch myself. I'm like, don't say that about yourself. You're not an idiot. I wouldn't want another human. I wouldn't want somebody else to call me an idiot. Why would I call myself an idiot? We get pissed at other people when they call us that stuff, but we don't know.

We should get mad at ourselves for calling us that stuff.

Yeah.

What would you say are the three greatest skills that you have as an interrogator?

As an interrogator, I can listen. I can listen and have a person completely shred me and not say a word.

What does that mean, shred you?

Like you can have somebody be like, I hate you, you're this, you're that, you know.

You don't react.

In the interview room, especially with the job, I would sit and take it because it wasn't my ego.

It's personal too, it's not.

It was less personal. But I've been able to, not always successfully, but even in my personal life, maybe without with my husband so much, he's probably like, yeah, that's bullsh*t. But he's an interrogator too, so it's all right. But typically with friendships, relationships, I'm better at not, like I can have people say hurtful or cruel things and not respond. Really? I'm not saying it hurt, it doesn't hurt. And there's moments, you know, you have those moments where maybe a business relationship doesn't go well or you have a friend or even a distant family member and like they send you a horrible email that, you know, soul crushing and you just want to point out like, just the lies of inadequacies and what they wrote. And I have learned to not respond or to try not to respond. I have my moments too, but I really think to myself, is this person worth responding to? Sometimes it's hard because it's like, I hear what this person's saying. I see what they're doing and you want to respond. And I think it takes so much discipline to not be mean to someone who's being mean to you or hurtful to you.

Yeah, that's tough.

Because we all go through that. Yeah. Every, each one of us has people in our lives who give us hate and you're like, how's this happening? Why is this happening? And you want to give it back, especially when you've trusted them unconditionally. You feel betrayed.

You believed everything they say.

You believed you, you, you access the Primitive part of your brain and you gave them all that trust, you didn't give them conditional trust, you gave it all up, and then that relationship goes south and you can be distraught. That's hard.

How did you learn to respond in an empowering way or not respond at all when someone attacks you?

That, to be fair, I learned that in the interrogation room, in the interview room.

When we were- Were you always like that? So you weren't always like that?

No.

You just be like, screw you.

I was bad, I was bad. I was pretty bad, yeah. I took after my father. In that part, you know. And look, and I give my dad kudos in that. Like even, you know, I talked about the cursing thing and I realized where I got it, when I'd go home as a kid sometimes and I'm like, Dad, this person picked on me and this, that. This is his advice. Did you say you? He never taught me to be a victim.

-Uh huh.

Never. And I remember, so my dad passed, and I remember, this is hard. He was, it was, we were at home, and I couldn't handle his pain anymore. He had pancreatic cancer, and I was managing his treatment at home, and I couldn't manage it with the drugs. He had to go into hospice. And then the hospice people came, and we're sitting at this table, it was the round kitchen table, And she's like, we have to take him. You can't manage it anymore. He has to go to hospice. And I knew in that moment when he left, that was it. He was not coming home. And like the tears are coming down. And I'm sitting there and he's like, hey, he's dying. He's like, hey. And he says it to me in Greek. You know, he says to me in Greek and I'll say it in English. He's like, how are we going to win the war if you're like this? Oh, man. He's like, How are we gonna win the fight if you're like this? Stop. And so I appreciate that because he never taught me to feel like a victim. And so to the point where he died, that stayed with me. I'm like, He's dying. He's going to hospice. He knows he's never coming back. Wow. And he's just, Hey, knock it off.

So he still wasn't a victim then.

He's like, Hey, to me, he's like, Stop. How are we gonna win the war if you act like this? How are you gonna win in life? I was just like, Sorry. Yeah.

What was the greatest lesson he taught you?

That, you know, he's, you know, to, and he had a temper. He was worse. Like he would actually vocalize the stuff, and I learned not to do that. He taught me, not to be a victim. He taught me not to let, even though people hurt us, he'd be, you know, he'd say to me, does this person feed you? Do they clothe you? Do they pay your bills? And I'd say no. He's like, then what are you upset about? And you have this moment, you're like.

Yeah, why am I upset?

You're right. It kind of like knocks out quite a few people. And that helped me. I mean, it could also be traumatizing when you're young, you want a little bit of the hey, yeah, I didn't get any of that. But I appreciate that. And I think that that also intuitively gave me that I'm not, I'm not your victim. And I don't even like that word.

Yeah, I know.

I don't like that word. Because I think when we think like that, we intuitively fall into that role. And so sometimes being able to, like, say, hey, F you, it gives you power back to say, like, I'm not going to take I'm not going to do this. Yeah.

So number one was listen. You're a great listener.

Oh my God, I forgot the question.

That was a great answer. I want to make sure I get to, I want to learn about your other skills too. That was a powerful response.

What was the question?

The three greatest skills you have as an interrogator.

Listen, I think being able to take it when people are cruel, and I think we touched on that.

Yeah, it's so hard. But you were gonna say how you learned that in the training. How did you learn that? Would they just like constantly come at you in training?

You know when I first learned that, I was in the NYPD. I started in the NYPD first as a recruit and they used to run us, it's called the FDR Highway, the FDR, and we'd run in ranks of four. We'd run in these ugly cargo shorts and please change the uniform. And these, you know, I am a little bit of a, you know, I was just like, wait, is this not a matching outfit? That's what I look good, yeah. I was like, you want to arrest people, I want to at least look good, you know? Sure. I'm gonna get shot today, I wanna look good as I'm going down, you know? But, so we're running in the FDR, four across in ranks, and the FDR is a highway, so there's a service area where you run, and people are driving by doing like 40, 50, 60, it's a highway, and back then, Kind of similar to where we are, they hated police. It was before 9/11. They didn't like law enforcement and they flipped the bird, they'd spit at you while they're doing 50, 60 miles. And I remember we're running and I didn't understand. I got in quite young and somebody like spit our way and gave us the finger and I'm like, Hey! And I turn around and the instructor just like grabbed me. He's like, what are you doing? I was like, Did you not see what that guy did? He's like, I was gonna give him a piece of my mind. And he's like, No, you don't do that here. He's like, you are not like them. He's like, you control that. He's like, if you can't control what people do, he's like, you're never gonna make it out there, nor should you be out there.

Wow.

And that was the first time I thought I was being tough.

Defending yourself.

Defending myself. And that's the first time I learned, like, you don't, tough people don't need to do that.

The real toughness is letting it go.

It takes more self-control and more self-discipline to be able to not say something and say something. There's this great quote, I'm gonna butcher it, Aristotle said it, I believe. And it's like, it's to get angry is an easy thing, but to be angry with the right person for the right reason and in the right way and for the right situation is not easy and not within everybody's power. for, you know? And so for me, I work on that just because I naturally gravitate to that. But I think for other people who don't, I think they need a little bit more of that, that part of them that doesn't let them, I'm a victim. I'm this, I'm that. A little bit more of that fire, like maybe a little bit of crazy.

Yeah, yeah.

You gotta have that. There's good crazy and you gotta have that.

So if you're, if you have a victim mentality a lot, maybe step it up and defend yourself a little more.

Yeah, or put yourself in uncomfortable places and when people say things to you, you don't want, you can't let it crush you, you gotta have a little bit of that, who are you?

Yeah, some thick skin, yeah.

But not even thick skin, but the ability to say like, you're wrong, I know you're wrong. I don't even need to tell you you're wrong. Yeah. 'Cause sometimes you ever have that, Louis, where you're dealing with somebody and you know they're wrong, but they lay out all the reasons why they think they're right, and you want to point them out, and sometimes you do, but it doesn't matter.

The energy is not worth it.

But it's not like you can get across to them. They've already made up their mind. So even if you refute each thing they say, they're just gonna come up with something else. Exactly.

So yeah, the energy of reacting is not even worth it at that point.

No, then you end up leaving frustrated. And I think the third thing would be what I learned is when you try to say something to someone and when you're gonna explain something to someone, you have to ask yourself, does this person sitting across from me have the ability to understand the perspective I'm about to share with them?

Right, they may not.

And if they don't, just sit there and just be like, okay, okay, oh my God, look at that. Look at the time, I gotta go. And so I think not wasting your time banging down a door that it's not even a door, it's like letting that go.

Yeah, I think I heard in another interview you did where you said, You know, it's our responsibility as leaders in the world to actually be a more adaptive and understand where the other person is coming from and not expect them to understand us, where we're coming from.

Yes.

And be like emotionally flexible with where they're at.

Yes. So with interviewing and with most, almost everything I try to do, so we have a conversation, I'm 50% of it, you're 50% of it. But what happens is I get most people get focused on me, what am I going to say to Louis? How am I going to be with Louis? How am I going to interact with Louis? Memi me, eye I eye, I get nervous, I'm insecure, how do I look, how do I sound? And what I've done is given zero ah thought to Lowis. It's all been about me. And so when I live in this space I become nervous, I become insecure, I have a'm self conscious. But when I leave that aside, I'm like, this is about Lewis. I want to hear about Lewis. Lewis, tell me about yourself. I want to know about you. I want to absorb everything about you. I put my energy into you, and then I listen to you. How does Lewis speak? What's his demeanor? If every time he likes something I says he does, I do a lot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. That's good.

You know, so I'm like, oh, that's his, that's his posture. That's how he, he's showing you. he's connecting with you. But I have to see the world through Lewis's eyes, how he sees it, how he experiences it. So when you say to me, you're like, look, I lied. I did this when I was growing up. I did that. And if I was just like, who does that? Why would you do that?

This interview is going south.

Max, we're done.

We're done.

Yeah. But my ability to connect with you and allow you to be you and not judge you, that big with people who committed crimes. Somebody told me that they did a horrible thing and usually with a violent crime or with the child, if I sat and I told that person, you,'re wrong.

Disgusting.

I'm not seeing from their perspective, they're not going to talk, I'm not going to get information, I'm not learning anything. That is work. And I think when we do, especially in business or when you're nervous, if you're like, I'm nervous interviewing, I'm nervous speaking, if you can take the attention you create off of yourself and put it all on that person, now you're distracted by them. But we're nervous, we're uncomfortable when all we're thinking about is me, me, me, I, I, I. How do I sound? How am I going to do this? How am I going to say that? And I'm not.

-It sounds like one of our greatest fears is the opinions of what someone else thinks about us. -How do we stop thinking about the judgment of other people, the opinions of other people about the way we look, act, think.

I think once you have haters, haters are good because you get them and you're like, I've got haters. Okay, I have to keep going and you keep going. So you'll see that, I guess you have to catch yourself. Somebody is criticizing something you're doing. Do you keep doing it or do you change the course of your actions because they said something to you? if you change the course of your actions because this person said something to you, shared their opinion, now you're being maneuvered by them and you are being impacted by them. But if you still are like, no, this is what I need to do despite the hate or the criticism or the venom that you receive, you still stay on that path, that's how you know. So I think pay attention as an individual, am I doing this because I believe this to be the right thing? or am I doing this because outside people are putting pressure on me to change my path and change who I am? Look, it's good to get other people's opinions, but you have to know whose opinion to listen to and when. So when someone gives me their opinion, solicited or unsolicited, I ask myself two things. Who is this person? and why should I listen to them? And so if I can't come up with that, then I'm like, I shouldn't listen to this person. So I, you know, but it's. It's having a conversation with yourself and practice. These are. These are all habits. You don't change overnight. So if you've been a person who has. Your habits always been to let other people opinions affect you. You talk negatively about yourself. you're intimidated by the things around you. You're not a risk taker. You're indecisive. You can't change overnight. But what you can do, you can say this month, I'm not going to ask anybody for their opinion. I'm just going to spend like a month just making my own decisions. And you create and cultivate that habit. And then you move on to the next thing. And the next thing.

So that was not reacting. That was number two. Was there a third one that you shared there?

I think I gave you like five.

Okay, just make sure I want to miss something there. I'm curious about the thing that you're most proud of that most people don't know about.

Proud. Is it bad to say that I don't have anything?

Huh?

I don't know how to answer that. I don't have, I don't have anything. Like, I guess I, I don't know, and I don't know if it's maybe I came from a place where it's about the team and it's more about humility and you're not supposed to stand out, even though now I'm on TV, right? Huge contradiction. I'm an author, I'm a book, I have a book. I don't know. I mean, I have-- Is it something.

You'Ve done with your team too, or something in the past, or something more recent?

What am I proud? Maybe, I don't know if, maybe proud is like not the right word for me because I'm happy maybe because I don't let other people affect me especially when I know they're wrong. That's good. That I will do. I'm able to recognize and have a conversation and say, is there truth to what they're saying? and if there is, what role did I play? Or is there no truth to what they're saying? And was what they're saying entirely about them, their world, their inadequacies? Because sometimes if you go back to asking people their opinion, most people will be like, don't do that. Don't quit your job. Don't this. And what they're doing is they are imposing on you their fears, their beliefs, and all that stuff. So how can I ask someone else to tell me what job to take, how to live my life, who to date, who to marry. When I'm, hello, I'm gonna be the one stuck with them. They're gonna choose differently than I would. Like with my mom, this is terrible example, but she'd be like, isn't he cute? I'm like, oh, who are you looking at? You know, when she was trying to get me to get married, I'm like, oh, he's good looking. She's like, what's wrong with you? Look at him. so I could never ask her to tell me who I, it's weird because I had such a different belief system. My mom grew poor in the village. My grandmother was illiterate. They were dirt poor, poverty in Greece. And I can't ask my mom certain things because she doesn't have the context to answer some of the questions that I have that are, I grew up in a different environment, in different a more complex world. And so she can't connect with that. She couldn't connect with me going into the police department. I should have just told her I was gonna go sell drugs. That would have been at least more like, oh, okay, I can see that. She couldn't connect with me going to become a secret service agent. When I left that to go into TV, she couldn't connect with that. She's like, what are you doing? Why are you doing all these things? You know?

She didn't understand your perspective, yeah.

She couldn't understand, but she also grew up very fear-based, poor, hungry. You have something great, don't mess this up. But then I'm like, but there's something.

How did you shift that mindset if you grew up in an environment of a fear-based, more protective, maybe fear-based mother, how did you shift from that and not have that?

It made me angrier. I think it does one or two things. You either become more afraid, Or the opposite? Or the opposite. And I became the opposite. I became more infuriated by it. And I fought it harder. And the more I was told no, the more I was like, no one's-- I'm not gonna tell me no. Let the world tell me no, and then I'm okay with it. I'm gonna apply for this and let them laugh at me. Let whatever is gonna happen happen. I want someone else to tell me, no, it can't come. It can't come from me first.

Mm-.

It just can't, 'cause I won't be able to live with myself because I had done that before. Yeah. I think we all have to some degree and we're like, why didn't I listen to myself? And I think that hurts more, at least for me it hurt more.

From the police department to Secret Service to TV, media, book world.

Yeah.

What were the habits that you learned along the way from being around the presidents and in that space, maybe the three or four habits for ultimate success, fulfillment, and happiness that you've seen, that you've applied, or maybe you'd like to do more of based on everything you've witnessed.

Do you know what? I'm actually going to answer the opposite because it just intuitively came to me. I actually, it was hard for me because I had never been in the business of me. And I was always speaking up for, I represented the people, I represented the government, I represented right and wrong. That was different. And then when I went into the business of me, a whole other ball game, and TV entertainment, oh my goodness, I found myself using my interviewing, assessing human behavior skills in like my meetings with producers and agents.

Yeah, what are they really asking? Are they telling me the truth or not?

Oh, totally. I'm like, oh, he scratched his head when I asked that question. I was like, Sir, did you like me on that show? Oh yeah, it was great. You were good. So I found, I had a hard time shifting. And I think it's because you go from, because look, even though you're taught to be decisive and a free thinker, you're also There's a hierarchy and chain of command. The orders come from the top down. And now what I found myself doing is thinking my agents and my managers were like my supervisors. And I kind of got stuck in that place. So I had to learn and be like, no, I need to speak up for myself. And I need to say, no, I don't want this. No, I don't agree with this. Even though I always had it, But I don't know, Louis, I had a hard time. I don't know, did you, I mean, you're in this industry, was it hard for you when you went from playing football to being the business of you?

Well, in the sports world, I was really good at learning how to set goals for myself. And I worked on me to become a better athlete every day. So it was always physical, mental, visualizing, and I was practicing different habits to improve to prove and to gain, you know, the success I wanted as an athlete. So I felt like I had an advantage going into the business world because I was very coachable. I was already like, let me find the best mentors and coaches, because they have the answers. I don't know what I'm doing. Tell me what to do. I'm gonna go work really hard for six months, and I'll come back and show you what I did, and then give me some feedback and let me figure out, you want me to read this book? You want me to do this? Okay, I'll learn, learn, learn. develop skills, follow routines, and see what works for me. So I would try and try and try a lot of things. And if it got me the results, great. Did it also bring me fulfillment? No. Okay, what do I need to do for that? But sports really helped me develop habits and a mindset because it was an environment of failure every moment. You're dropping a ball, you're missing a shot, someone steals the ball from you, whatever, you're failing. So you have to learn constantly. if you want to improve.

I think, you know, now that you said that, I think what habit I took then was my ability to not get my feelings hurt.

That's a good habit.

So in the service, like, they didn't sugarcoat anything. Like, hey, you know, that last, that last advance you did, you know, that part where the president got knocked down? Yeah, you know, we just appreciate if you just put better bike racks up and secure it a little better. It'd be like, why wasn't that secure? That's not gonna happen again. You're demoted. You've got a week of midnight or whatever. Or, you know, give me 50 push-ups if it was training. And so I like that. It was very direct.

Clear.

Which is why I think we're both instrumental. It's just like, tell me what I need. I don't need the whole story. I don't need the sugar coating. Tell me what I need to do to be better. And in fact, even with the one thing I do with any project I have, any my agents, my executive producers, any project I'm on, my editor for my book or my agent, I don't need you to, you're not gonna hurt my feelings. Right.

Is it good or not? Yeah, tell me.

Just tell me if it's good, if it sucks, say Evie it sucks, but just tell me why so I can fix it. This sucks, this is why. You did not do a good job at this, this is why. I can't be better if you're so worried about hurting my feelings, which I think in industry, people don't give it to you. Like, I remember I started doing the news and after every news thing, it's like, you were great, you were great. I was like, I can't be great every time.

Yeah, exactly.

Give it some feedback. So I had to pull one of the producers aside and I said, please tell me what I can do better. I don't want you to tell me I'm great. I'm not gonna get better if you don't tell me, stop using your hands so much on camera or, you know, don't curse. I don't know.

Sure, sure. Whatever it is.

Give me good feedback. Yeah. Give me feedback. So I definitely got that. I don't, nothing hurts my feelings when it comes to that. Tell me I suck, tell me why so I can fix it.

Yeah, or maybe your husband said that. If I hurt your feelings.

He does that. He does that. He's just like, let me sit you down and he goes straight to it. He's like, really? Actually, when I began doing television, he would, you know, I had a great support system. He would text me during commercial break. Sit up, you're slouching. Fix your hair. Who did your makeup today? Oh, man. He's like, I don't like it. That eyeliner is crazy. What are you wearing? Too many stripes. I mean, he would critique me so that I could be better. And I was never pissed. Never. I'm like, watch me, you know, tell me what I'm doing right. Oh, yeah, that outfit didn't work. Oh, who did your hair? Don't do that again. But that was because he wanted me to be better. And because you asked for it, too. I asked for it. I don't know if I always asked for it. Sometimes it's unsolicited. But I knew what he was doing and why, whereas I think a lot of folks get their feelings hurt. So I think with our backgrounds that there's no time for that.

-Yeah.

-Let'S get some results.

Let's go.

Yeah.

-Yeah.

-And I think it's like, Tell me how to be great. I don't need you to-- my feelings are fine. My feelings will hurt when I fail at this, or I don't get the job, or they replace me with somebody else to host or whatever, produce or whatever. Yes.

That's good. I love this. You've got an amazing book called Becoming Bulletproof. Protect yourself, read people, influence situations, and live fearlessly that I want people to check out. I believe that life is a game of enrollment, and we're either enrolling people in something or they're enrolling us. And it's all about influencing persuasion in an ethical way, but we're always in an enrollment environment. convincing people in something or unconvincing them in something. And so this book is going to help people protect themselves if someone's doing something harmful. It's going to help them read people and understand people and influence people in a more positive way. And I love all the strategies and techniques you've given today. This is really inspiring. I can follow you also all over social media, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Where you hang out the most?

New York City, although I love...

Which social media do you hang out the most? Which platform are you on the most? Moz.

I think Instagram, I'm on Instagram but I'm trying to get into TikTok.

I'm struggling.

Oh, all right. Are you on it?

Of course I'm on it.

I gotta learn. I gotta, I need help. You do great.

You do great on there. I don't know how to use, I need help. I'll show you a couple of accounts that have blown up kind of in your space that I think we do really well at. If you just look at some of the stuff they do, I'll text you.

Some of those accounts.

I'd love that. I'd love that.

But Instagram, right? Instagram, Twitter, Facebook.

And it's all your name.

It's all my name, Common Spelling.

Gotcha. There we go. I've got a couple final questions for you.

Yes.

This is called the Three Truths. It's a hypothetical question.

Oh, I'm nervous.

Imagine your last day on Earth many years away from now.

Okay.

And you've got to accomplish everything you want to accomplish. All your dreams come true, everything you want to do.

It happens. Okay.

But for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your work with you. Your written work, your books, your audio, this interview, it's all going to go with you to the next place, wherever you go. You've got to take everything with you. So no one has access to your content anymore or a recording of you anymore or your information. Okay. But you get a piece of paper and a pen and you get to write down three lessons you've learned from your life that you'd want to share with the world. I call it the three truths. What would you say would be your three truths that you would share with everyone?

Do the right thing, even when it's not the most popular thing to do. That would be it. That would be huge, because sometimes you're doing the right thing and everybody around you is telling you, you,'re wrong, you're this, you're that. And it's like if you know it to be the right thing, do it. That's not easy. Three things that I would leave behind, right? I would-- Mm-.

Number two?

Say it again. I want to hear it again.

This is all you have to leave behind. Lessons that you've learned from your life.

Lessons.

I call them three truths. Do the right thing, even when it's not popular.

Make your own decisions. fail as much as possible. Because if you're, the more you fail, it means the more you're doing and the more you're putting yourself out there. When you don't fail, it means you're not doing anything.

That's true.

Yeah. Oh, that was deep.

Good. I like this. I want to acknowledge you for a moment. The fact that you've gone through these different stages of your life and done the right thing even when it's not popular.

Try.

You tried, you tried to.

I don't wanna play. I might have had a little bit of Lewis in me too growing up. I'm not gonna, I'm far from perfect. I will say that.

Well, I acknowledge you for being in the industry and the level of service that you've had for trying to do the right thing, trying to help people make better decisions, having justice where justice is needed, and being a force for good. You've shown as a force for good for many, many years in your level of service. So I really acknowledge you for showing up and then also moving into the next stage of your life and showing up in a different way to serve people with this type of information to help people to spread the knowledge that you've learned in these different environments. So I really acknowledge you for the gift that you are, for showing up, for learning, for failing, for growing and all the stuff you're doing. It's really inspiring.

Thank you, I appreciate you saying that. Of course, yeah. I feel the same way. I walked in, I saw School of Greatness.

I was like, oh, I am in the right place. That's it. It's not the School of Average. Okay, final question for you. I want people to get the book.

Follow you on social media, but the final, is there anything else we want to mention? No, man, you've hit me hard.

I feel like I've never been interviewed.

How's it say, who is this? It's a friendly interview, you know, friendly interrogation. It is. No, I love it. It's nice because you're, if I can flip it on you now, you're a thoughtful interviewer. It's a conversation. It's not an interview. You're not just banging the questions out. You really put your thought and you're really trying to get into something deep. It's not often like that. And I appreciate what you do. It's like trying to teach people. And it's like what I try to do with the book. I was like, what can I share with people that I learned that will be helpful? to them? And how can you package it and deliver it in a way to people so it's digestible? Like how do you help try to make people's lives? And I love your honesty in that you're like, I'm not perfect and I'm not preaching. Because it's like, and that's what you want to make sure I'm not preaching. I just, this is what I've learned. I hope it helps you. Because it helped me. It's still helping me.

Right, right. Love it. Final question. What's your definition of greatness?

Trying to help people and protect people. Yeah. Helping and protect people. I think we. We are very, like, mind my own business. Me, me, me, just me. And we've lost that ability to. To protect. And I think maybe it goes back to what I did. Like, I will protect you. I may not know you, but I will. I will protect you. I will try to help. you. I think that's greatness helping people even maybe when it's not to your benefit sometimes. Ebbie, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Thank you. Amazing. Thank you so much for listening to this episode.

I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, make sure to share this with someone that you think would be inspired by this wisdom and Ebbie's story. And if you haven't subscribed yet to the School of Greatness, then what are you waiting for? Just go to Apple Podcasts right now, type in School of Greatness, click on the subscribe button right there and leave us a rating or review and let us know what you enjoyed most from this specific episode in that review section. As well as share this with a few friends that you think would be inspired by this. LewisHowes.com/1092 to send them to the show notes and all the other stuff that we talk about in this episode. Or just copy and paste the link wherever you're listening to this and share this out with some friends. Post it on social media. Make sure to tag me and Evie as as well, so we know who's listening and what you liked about this. And if you haven't yet texted me, I want you to text me right now. Text the word podcast to 614-350-3960. If you want to get on my secret and special texting communication list where I send out positive inspirational messages every single week and other good stuff behind the scenes, so make sure to text me the word podcast right now to 614-350-3960. And I want to leave you with this quote from John F. Kennedy who said, Let us never negotiate out of fear, but let us never fear to negotiate. Ooh, I loved this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. And I want to remind you, if no one's told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. I'm so grateful for you and you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.