How To Create Boundaries With A Narcissist w/Dr. Ramani Durvasula (PART 2) EP 1196

This is episode number 1196 with Dr. Ramani Durvasula, part two.

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former.

Pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.

Thanks for spending some time with me today.

Now let the class begin. [Speaking of] welcome back, my friend. We had such a massive response to our initial episode with Dr. Ramani Durvasula, and I wanted to unpack this even more. So we made this two parts. We dove in deeper. And if you didn't hear part one yet, check it out after this one. Dr. Ramani is a licensed clinical psychologist and a professor of psychology at California State University in Los Angeles. She's also the best-selling author of don't you know who I am? How to stay sane in the era of narcissism, entitlement and incivility. Again, this is a topic that has truly fascinated me, so make sure to check out part one. You can go to the previous episode on Apple Podcast or Spotify or wherever you're listening or go to the link lewishouse.com/1195 to listen to that as well. In this episode, we discuss the biggest misconceptions about narcissists, the essential components of every healthy relationship, the red flags to watch out for in your own relationships, the difference between narcissistic personality disorder and narcissistic personality traits, the key to loving yourself in a more fulfilling way, how to create boundaries with a narcissist, and this is fascinating, and so many more things. Again, if you're finding value out of this and at any moment, make sure to share this link with friends, family, post it on social media. I had a woman reach out to me and say, Wow, I sent this to my mother and I realized I'm starting to heal so much because my father was a narcissist and I wasn't even aware of it until I can listen to this episode now and really.

Unpack a lot of this.

So I'm assuming someone in your life was or is a narcissist. and hopefully this will support you in navigating it so you don't feel drained, you don't feel like you're lost in this relationship and confused anymore. So hopefully this gives you some clarity and some peace of mind. And a quick reminder, if this is your first time here, we'd love for you to click subscribe over on Apple podcast right now or on Spotify and leave us your feedback. Leave us your thoughts on how this influenced and impacted you by leaving a review at the end of this episode. And I want to give a shout out to the fan of the week from Nick Chelston who said, One of my new favorites. I just started listening to the School of Greatness this week and it's already one of my new favorites. Lewis as a great variety of guests and ask great questions. 10 out of 10, I would recommend. So, Nick, thank you for being the fan of the week. And again, if you guys want a chance to be shouted out on the podcast as a fan of the week, then leave us a review over on Apple podcast right now. Okay. Excited about this one.

In just a moment, the one and only Dr. Ramani Durvasula.

What's the biggest misconceptions about a narcissist, then? That they love themselves. They don't love themselves?

Oh hell no. It's self-loathing. This is a disorder of self-loathing. All that inadequacy and ugly insecurity, they hate themselves. But then they put it on other people. But did I project it onto other people? You're a horrible, lying, disgusting person. You make me sick. Oh my God.

They're talking about themselves.

Oh my gosh. So you just want to give them a hug?

So narcissists are miserable.

They're miserable. Miserable. Miserable, it's awful. I actually say that the compassion we can find in ourselves is people like, I wanna get revenge on them. I say, you don't have to, they.

Have to keep being them.

They have to live with it. The universe wins on that one. They have to keep being them. It is a, imagine every day you're comparing yourself to everyone. You're thinking, they have that and they have that, how come I don't have this and how come this? They're constantly anxious, they're constantly angry, they constantly feel like a victim, they feel like everyone is out to get them. that's a very difficult way to live.

Their nervous system must be always heightened too.

Kind of, kind of, yeah, different than their psychopathic cousins there obviously. Who doesn't feel it, yeah. But narcissists really, really, it's a very uncomfortable way to live because you always feel like, they always feel like they're.

Getting the short end of the stick. And so what are the signs then if you're a kid and you've thought one thing about your parents, but all of a sudden you're starting to see like, oh, maybe they might have a parent who's narcissistic. What would you say are the main signs if a parent for a kid would be narcissistic.

I don't think when let's say a child is anyone under 13, I don't even think kids start understanding that their parents are messed up until they're in around middle school or high school. Selfishness, inattentive, real inattentiveness.

Dismissiveness.

Dismissiveness, devaluation of their emotions, shaming them, humiliating them, expecting them to be like them. Devaluing them if they don't excel at the things they want. What do you mean you don't want to go to Harvard? Or like, oh, you want to go to that college? Like any kind of contemptuous dismissiveness of their children. That's all narcissistic parent behavior. Wow. Rage, rage is a big one and I think that's probably the one my clients have brought up. Anger. Anger, but rage like that walking on eggshells. If anyone says to me, I felt like I was always walking on eggshells.

Around my parent and probably dealing with an antagonistic, a narcissistic narcissistic parent. Yeah, I think I was telling you beforehand, I felt that for a part of my life and then things started to shift. But I've definitely walked on eggshells for many relationships in the past, which makes me be like, why did I jump into different relationships where I felt that way? Which maybe I hadn't learned to heal the past yet or I hadn't learned to.

But you didn't jump into a relationship. I didn't feel that in the beginning.

You didn't feel it at the beginning. But it was like six to 12 months later when I was like, Then I justify, oh, let's just get back to where it was.

One of the great, I would say your greatest vulnerability, quite frankly, to narcissistic relations, is your history as an athlete. Athletes are actually at not only great risk of being narcissistic, but for falling for narcissists.

Why is that?

And a lot of that is because for any gifted athlete, all you needed to do was work harder. You just had to go to the gym or had to run or do whatever, whatever it was you needed to do, it just meant more reps.

Yes.

There was always a way to make it better. You're gonna do the Sunday workout, you're gonna go to the gym at four in the morning.

That's it.

Right, and so the more in you had this belief, you got better and you were in control. So the belief is you could extend that to anyone. I just gotta talk to them harder. I'm gonna be more clear. I'm gonna make more work.

More loving, more work, more giving.

Everything becomes a workout.

Oh my gosh, this is what I did in the last 10 years. In every relationship for the last 10 years. And I remember just being like, it would never felt enough. And it was always draining to give. It was never enough what I gave. There was always something wrong with me. There was always something to pick at. And they never wanted to go to therapy with me. It was funny because I was like, what meant, you know, I don't want to generalize, but I was like, I'm a guy who wants to go to therapy and get feedback from my, like, I'm not perfect. Give me feedback. Tell me how to improve. Because I'm an athlete, right? I'm like, I want to improve. And they never wanted to. I was just like, I think women would kill for this, you know, for.

A guy who wanted to go to therapy with them. Not a narcissistic woman. Oh my gosh. Surrender is kind of actually the opposite of what an athlete is conditioned to become, right? And that's really the core of the narcissistic relationship. It's a sense of surrender. I'm not engaging with this. I'm not doing this. It doesn't work. And then you just fold it and step away.

No, it was more like, I want to make this work. What can I do to make it better? How can I improve? Tell me what I can do. I'm here, I'll support, I'll do this.

And then it just, it drains your energy. Athletes, entrepreneurs, or anyone who's a doer.

And it's worked for them.

There's root.

It wasn't until I really started lifting the veil with my therapist talks about is like I started to really realize like okay, I don't need to keep working working working youg talked about this one of your recent videos like the marriage and a relationship should be hard work is kind of the narrative and when I realized like it shouldn't feel like it should feel like Commitment and there's attention and presence, but it shouldn't feel like this draining hard work no otherwise, otherwise I'd rather be single if that's what it is.

It's like exactly and I think that that that. And I have to tell you, a lot of people have had a lot of harm done to them in therapy where therapists say to them, it's hard work. Relationships are hard work. No, no, no, no, no. It's not. I mean, yeah. Maybe having to say, no, like having to sit through a football game you don't want to watch.

I don't know that that's hard work.

Like, because they sat with watch your French film with you.

It's just an uncomfortable moment.

I'm just gonna read my book while you watch your football game.

Yeah.

It's. We're good. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, I can show up for a few. That's not hard work. Yeah. Hard. You know, if. And the other person's kind. Right again. Every healthy relationship, every healthy relationship has the same core ingredients. Kindness, compassion, patience, mutuality of regard, reciprocity, respect, every single one. And as long as you got that-- Flexibility. Flexibility, no narcissistic relationship has even one of those ingredients. So that's why they don't work. They don't work. So they're always going to be hard work because you have not one of the essential ingredients. Like you're trying to bake a cake without flour, eggs, or sugar.

Good luck with that. How do you know when you're entering a new relationship, if the person is not a narcissist? Maybe you've been in a narcissistic relationship, or your parent was, or whatever it is, and you have some PTS from those experiences, and you feel like, well, I'm supposed to be walking in eggshells, but I don't need to. It's kind of healthy. Is this shoe gonna drop? When you know the person isn't a.

Narcissist, how long does that take to find out? About the same amount of time it takes to discover that they in the sense that the difference is narcissists actually have there's red flags, right? I call these green flags. Green flags mean go. And green flags are things like watch the person, watch how the person behaves under conditions of stress. So let's say that you're running late to the airport. Great, that's a great example of a stress, right? How are they acting? And are they, you know, they're saying, oh, I'm a little worried about this, but we're going to make it work and listen. What's the worst that's going to happen? We'll get rebooked and they're calm and like, you know, listen, I'm just glad to be here with you. Like, we'll figure it out. To make the most of the moment. Yeah, we'll go to an airport hotel if we have to. But we're gonna be fine. A narcissist when they're running late to the airport? Oh, oh no, no, no, no.

What happens?

And it just, it's just, I can't keep up. It's not gonna crash. But it's chaos, stress, accusations. This is your fault. Oh my god. Entitlement. Let me speak to the manager. Get me on that plane. Get that plane back to the gate. Oh my god. Like that's the narcissist, right? Whereas with the, with somebody, you watch them. And it doesn't have to be something as dramatic as the airport. It could be even something like, Hey, I noticed you've been working late. How about I make some dinner? So, it's the noticing. It's the presence. It's the mindfulness. It's the willingness to be flexible and make compromise when it's needed, to meet you halfway, to listen to you. And more than anything is to also see the growth potential in you. So, not to be threatened by your own success. So, if you go up to this person and you're like, Hey, you know what? I got this totally cool new opportunity. And the healthy person says, that is amazing. You have worked your whole life. I saw this in you. What can we do to make this work for you? Whereas everybody else, not just narcissist but insecure people will say, oh, I guess that's just going to mean more time away and you're going to be traveling a lot. There's going to be a lot of women on the road and you're like, oh my gosh, they just got the job of their dreams.

Oh my gosh. And that's bringing back so many members to me.

Yeah, that's the key. big believer that, you know, there's actually something in, I'm going a little off topic, but you're off topic, guys. You can handle it.

I love it.

There's something called the Michelangelo phenomenon. One person in the relationship sees the absolute potential in the other in such a way that they say, what do we need to do to get you to your dream? Like, do we need to, should we take a second on the house? Should we cut back? Should we move closer in? Because I see, or you know what? It could be as simple as, They eat a cake that their partner made and said, okay, this is the best cake I've ever had. Have you ever thought of making this into a business? Or a partner of yours might have said, you, ask the most amazing questions. You need a podcast. Like it's seeing that something bigger in the person.

That's a good thing.

That's the Michelangelo phenomenon. That's everything.

That's a good thing.

It's the best thing. And very few relationships get that because what you've got to do is that person who's saying, Go be your best you is secure enough to say, I'm not gonna lose you.

Right, right.

Like I see all the good in you.

And that-- and I want the best for you.

And I want the best for you and I believe in you and I'm here with you. And that might even mean the person encouraging you might have to make sacrifice. Things like, you know, I know that you're gonna have to go take this course for six months and I may not see you and that's okay because this is our future together. That's the Michelangelo phenomenon.

Never, ever happens. What's the opposite of that?

Narcissistic relationship.

In the previous, I would say 10 years of my relationships, I think I was just really good at choosing specific people because I was always like, I always saw the masterpiece. I said, you,'re a masterpiece and I can see what's possible for you with all these skills and gifts, but there was like some insecurities with some of them, not all of them, and they never were able to see it within themselves. They weren't able to see it. And then I remember When I would accomplish something big in some of these relationships, not all of them, it was almost like they would get depressed or sad and say, oh, and then make it about what they're lacking, what they don't have, and wanting to put their intention back on them. I remember I got an email for a year. I was training to become, to make the USA national team. It was a dream of mine to go to the Olympics and make the USA national team for a sport called team handball. It's a big sport in Europe, not that big in USA. I remember getting an email and literally almost in tears that I was selected for the USA team. And it was just like a dream for a couple of years of a journey. This was 10 years ago. And I remember I showed it to my girlfriend at the time ago, I just got called up on the national team. And I'm like getting kind of emotional just chills now back in that moment. And she didn't congratulate me. She just kind of went back into, God, I wish I was doing what I wanted to do. And I wish there was this.

And I was just like, Bingo. Right there.

Okay, well yeah, let me come back and help you. I kind of put my attention back on like, you know, you're gonna get these things going and you know, I'm here for you. But it's like this diminishing, I had this happen at one of my big events one time. I host this annual event called the Summit of Greatness and a relationship out of time made it all about them at the event. That I wasn't there for them because the tension was on me and people were coming up to me and I was like, this is something I've been working all year to host. And then I said, you know what? Let me pause in my event for two hours to give the attention to this person. And I was always trying to see the masterpiece, but it's like, I don't know. I'm like, you're having so many realizations for me.

Right, yeah. I mean, but that's the idea that that ego-- and it's interesting. Not everyone who's not capable of this sort of Michelangelo phenomenon in a relationship is a narcissist by any stretch. They may just have more of the low-grade insecurity that so many people are plagued by, right? Gotcha. All insecurity doesn't mean narcissist, right? insecurity paired with all this entitlement and lack of empathy and all of that is the problem. And so it's so unfortunate because it is there then again, it's talking about self-actualization for the individual. I think there can even be actualization in relationships where two people, like they really see the greatness in each other. It can't just be you the only one seeing the masterpiece. They have to see the masterpiece in you.

Because it's just draining. If it's just one person, right?

It's also a mirror that's not reflecting back at you.

So what I'm hearing you say, the ultimate experiment in a relationship is when both parties are seeing the masterpiece in each other and are supportive of each other. And when one is succeeding, the person I'm with right now, she's incredible. She's just a walking success. Everything she does is just successful. I'm so happy for her. I want her to succeed. I'm like, this is amazing. Let's celebrate you.

And she's happy for you.

She's happy for me.

It has to be a two-way street.

She admires the work I'm doing. She admires the mission we're on to help people. And she's like, what can I do to support you? It feels interesting. I mean it feels beautiful.

It is beautiful. I mean that's the key though because that ability to sort of co like again to have that co-located growth, that Michelangelo if you will. You're in essence You're realizing the statue from the raw piece of marble every day and you're both sculpting that for each other. Oh my gosh. But that's, again, no narcissistic relationship is like that. And with a narcissistic relationship, it's really the them show. Like everyone is just sort of in the audience watching them and celebrating them. So they can be the only great one in a relationship.

Really? Is it possible that two narcissists would be in a relationship together?

I actually love when that happens because it kind of gets out of the water supply for everybody else.

Oh my gosh.

'Cause they're both miserable with each other. They're like perfect for each other. Here's what it is. They're very volatile relationships. They're very superficial relationships. A lot of people who are power couples, that's sometimes what you're seeing like this kind of, they're all about the, they're only about the aspiration. They're not about the empathy, but in any relationship of two narcissists, as soon as somebody doesn't stay in their lane. So let's say one classical trope of two narcissists in a relationship, very one partner very wealthy, very powerful, very successful. The other one very beautiful, looks good, goes places with this one, looks good with them, it all looks good together.

They complement each other.

Ish complements a strong word. The first time this one though might look someplace else because this one's a narcissist, this person, the powerful one, it's narcissistic, may notice someone else, this person's gonna blow up because they're doing their beautiful thing full time and they're like, how can someone be more beautiful than me?

If you're not looking at me obsessive then you're not gonna be able to.

Lots of jealousy, lots of volatility, lots of me-me-me, lots of egocentricity, lots of on social media, it's like, I'm so blessed. LoveMyPerson, BestRelationshipEver. I mean, I laugh when I see that, 'cause I'm like, yeah, there we go. You know, another narcissistic, super narcissistic relationship where it's all about advertising the relationship, but it's very superficial, very volatile, no empathy, There's no depth to the intimacy. It's almost transactional that that's what happens when two narcissists get together. I honestly would be fine with all the narcissists pairing up like Noah's are, as long as none of them have kids.

Because that's a real mess. Because then your kids are messed.

You're traumatized. It's a really empty way to grow up. Those kids that grow up either, they either become incredibly anxious as adults or.

They become narcissistic as adults. It's not a good look. I don't know if I'm inspired by this conversation or depressed. How many, what's the percentage? How many, what's the percentage of people in the world who are narcissists? Do we have that even?

Okay, so here's where it gets interesting. So let's start with something we haven't talked about yet. So give me a way to talk about this. A lot of people use the word narcissistic or the term narcissistic personality disorder. I actually think it's phenomenal that you haven't been using it because it's a mistake to use that languaging and I'll tell you why. Narcissistic personality disorder, okay? NPD. So lots of people out there will say, oh, I'm in this relationship or I've got this boss and they have narcissistic personality disorder. I'm always like, slow down sister, okay? Because narcissistic personality disorder, like all diagnoses, require a full workup, a lengthy clinical interview. It even takes me, I'm going to be honest with you, if I have a client in my office, it usually.

Takes me four to six sessions to be confident that that's what I'm dealing with.

With a disorder. Because you could have narcissistic personality traits. Correct.

It's different than a very different.

And it gets into the weeds in.

Terms of diagnostic stuff you don't want to get into. It could be like more like when I'm triggered, I have narcissistic traits as opposed to.

It's more complex than that because it's that in order to give someone a diagnosis in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the DSM, in order to give someone a diagnosis, that person who's showing the symptoms has to either be uncomfortable themselves, like we call it subjective distress, like depressed people. They're like, I'm miserable, I'm miserable, I'm sad all the time, I can't get out of bed. That's subjective distress. Or they have to have something called social and occupational impairment, meaning that the symptoms are getting in the way of their lives in a way that they're aware of, right? It's causing problems for them. Where this gets dicey with narcissistic personality, is that first of all, a lot of narcissists are on top of the world. They think their lives are great. They walk around like, I'm the one, I'm the guy, I'm the best. Look how great I am.

You've got money, I've got success, I've got the girl, whatever it is, it's working for them.

So everything's working for them. So that's no subjective distress. Social and occupational impairment. Now, in some cases they may be having trouble at work and then yeah, sure they'll meet that criterion. But for a lot of folks just walking around in the street, They're making bank at work. They got a partner and a side piece, like everything's working out for them. So they don't even think they're having that impairment. But what they're doing is they're blowing up other people's lives.

Oh, yeah.

We as therapists cannot issue a diagnosis of social, we can't say that they have social and occupational impairment because they're, someone else is bothered by them. Make sense?

Yeah.

It has to be in the, it has to be that the person is saying, I'm not going to work on time or I got a DUI. Those are examples of social and occupational impairment or behavioral impairment. I personally think they need to get rid of the diagnosis. I think it's worth nothing. It's a diagnosis with no treatment. So why would you have a disease that you can't treat? There's no point to that. So let's, okay. So now let's go to the numbers because the epidemiological studies are studies that tell us the number of people or the percentage of people who have a given mental illness, a given disorder.

Gotcha.

So, the epidemiology statistics on narcissistic personality disorder put the rate somewhere between 1 and 6%, okay?

That's people who are diagnosed with this. Diagnosed with this, okay, so they've gone into research doctors. But most people aren't diagnosed because they.

Would never come in and do these sessions and so, what do you- the million dollar question. How many do you think- this is my number, this is the Dr. Ramani number. Yeah. Okay. I'm going with 20 to 25%.

Oh, of the world or of the world? Of the world.

One in five to one in four.

You think it's 20%?

One in five is probably, and I'm saying adults. Let's take the kids. Okay, so 18 and above. 20%. That would make it one in five. And I would tell you in a major metro like LA, I'm going to 25%. I think that just the pressures of New York, especially New York LA, L.A. being an entertainment city, the nature that sort of the, it's a company town and the business of the town is very superficial and very validation seeking. So I'd say 25% here. So that's one in five. So buddy, if you know five people, one of them's narcissistic.

When do you know someone is not a narcissist? What are the qualities that they possess? The real qualities.

It's empathy. Kindness, respect, flexibility, self-awareness. the capacity to reflect on their impact on other people, emotional regulation, managing, this is more of the emotional regulation, like managing negative states like frustration and disappointment, genuine curiosity about others, setting goals from an internal space rather than what they think the world expects of them. I think that's a good one. Yeah, having a strong sense of identity, a sense of who they are, having a solid sense of values, conscientiousness, agreeableness. These are the things that make a person not narcissistic.

It's nice to be around those types of people.

Oh, they're so good. And I feel blessed. I have a fair number of those in my life. I'm very careful. I curate my world the way some people curate their closets. I don't, and I've made them as recently as this year. more than a few in. So it happens. Narcissistic friends in. Yeah. I'm getting, you know, and I got to tell you, it just means that people who've been through what's called narcissistic abuse or all the negative psychological impacts of being in a narcissistic relationship, one thing I work with people on is just narrowing their social world. Like it's unfortunately at one in five, what are the odds, right? They're pretty darn good. You date five people, One of them. And depending on what swimming pool you're pulling these people out of, it could be one in three.

So even you, you've attracted people in your life.

100%. And I know what my vulnerabilities are. I'm very aware of them.

What are they?

My personal vulnerabilities are things like a, I devalue myself. I feel like I'm not enough. I pity people kind of easily. And so narcissists actually are pitiful people. And that pity can sometimes drive me to say maybe I should try harder. So at this point in my life, I'm closed off in a way that actually sometimes makes me feel guilty. And I'm like, yeah, if that's the price of poker, I'm good. I've been through too many times at this rodeo that I don't want to do it. So it's definitely my own lack of valuing of myself is what's made me vulnerable to narcissism. If I boil it down to one simple thing, is that I feel like I'm not good enough. Because I feel like I'm not good enough, I let those kinds of people in. So what I found, unfortunately, is that it's just better off to close the gates and not let anyone in. And not let anyone in, unfortunately. Yeah, that's kind of the downstream effect.

Or, I mean, would you say the greatest defense against attracting narcissism is to fully love yourself?

It's to fully love yourself to be deeply authentic. I consider myself authentic. authentic adjacent, but I know I've got a ways to go because I still struggle with the monkey on my back of feeling like I'm not enough kind of thing. Really? Yeah. And I know that. And that's my work in my own therapy on that consistently. But I know where my barriers are. So, anything that pings that, it's great. It's interesting. My staff is fantastic. I mean, and they're much younger than me. This is what's so remarkable about it. They actually act like guard dogs. That's great. They're like, We feel like one's coming. No. And I'll be like, I kind of feel bad for them. I'm like, Good for you, go feel bad in another room. We're not letting them in. So they're, I mean, these two are gangster. I mean, they're the two most amazing young women.

What's the key to learning how to love ourselves fully so that we don't, so that when we see someone coming in, we just say, Nah, we're okay. We don't need to, He lets you into our life.

So let's go back to the Carl Rogers, the humanist I was talking about before. It's to lift the conditions of worth from our lives. That we are lovable and cherishable simply because we are. I mean, we could get totally into a different conversation about we're all made of energy. Who judges energy, right? Like, you know, we're all lovable because we're the stuff of life, you know, and that makes us beautiful and lovable. And so it's- who said this? Carl Rogers talks about conditions of worth. Dr. Ramani says, and many others I do believe say, we're energy. Like who judges energy? It's like judging the sun. I guess we do like we were on screen. You're right, right, right. But you know what I mean? Like it's a, these conditions of worth, like whatever people say to themselves, I'm not attractive enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not rich enough, I'm not accomplished enough, I'm not this enough, I'm not that enough, that those conditions of worth, I would be lovable if. As soon as you put love and if in the same sentence, you're screwed. So it's very much like dropping all that and saying you're lovable because you are. Everyone is lovable. Everyone is cherishable, all of us, not because somebody's more beautiful or somebody's more famous or somebody's more attractive, it's not, or rich or something like that. But it's hard because we're given the message of, you're better if you look this way, act this way, do this way, live here, drive this. It's a lot to break out of. And so I think that, and those narratives even go deeper than materialism. It's almost like as a kid, many kids were taught, they almost felt like you grow up with a parent who's not attentive in any way or not interested of, well, I'm not, they're not paying attention because I'm not interesting. I'm not enough.

And I get attention when I excel in something that they like. And so let me do more of that to get more attention.

Exactly.

And if I lose at that, then they're not gonna love me.

That's exactly right. So it all becomes like people think like, if I do these things, then I could be loved rather than you're just lovable. And so that's where most people lose the plot. And I think the other piece, those people don't understand narcissism. I think that a lot of people say, oh, come on, everyone can change, or some Just they, I just got to get to know them better or they don't really mean that. We enable it, we justify it, but if people really got to learn like, no, that's unacceptable. That tantrum they just threw, not okay. That entitled behavior, not okay. And honestly get to the point where I don't care why they're behaving like this, they're behaving like this.

So how do you create boundaries with the narcissist?

It's not easy. I mean, I think that the narcissistic people, the key with a narcissistic person is to detect it early, set boundaries early, because then they get disinterested and they walk away. They'll be like, right, you're not an easy mark anymore, right? So charm and charisma come walking in the door. I think I'm the only person in the world who's telling people, if you meet someone charming and charismatic, run away.

Like, get away from them. This is dangerous.

But are there some people that are charming and charismatic who aren't narcissistic? Yeah, but I'm all about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. So it's a, because charming, charismatic people, I would say then always make sure they have humility.

There you go.

If they have the humility back.

That's the unicorn. That's the unicorn. That's when you're like, they're charming and they're humble.

Humble and they're all that, they're incredible and they're like, listen, you know, I'm great. Can you just tell me about you a little bit? Talk a little bit about you. There's a keeper in your life. Yeah, that's a keeper. Or they, you can see how they're talking to other people, their interest in other people. They're not talking down to people. Maybe because let's say they're in a service position that evening, right? That they're not. And not in a smarmy, like, oh, the server is my best friend, but, like, they're not.

Right.

That, it's none of that. It's really like, oh, let me wait for the server to come along and see if I can get or whatever. They're just really, they're present in a situation, they're not elitist, they're not status conscious, that kind of humility, that they don't brag, you know that they're all that and they're not going on about how all that that they are.

That's cool.

They're not talking about, oh, let me tell you about my new this and my new that and this accomplishment and my, nah, they're just they're actually able to be with you, be present with you. It's rare because again, people who are that hyped up, they're hyped up from all sides. You have to be really resistant, authentic, self-actualized to not drink the Kool-Aid.

Yeah. What else do we need to know about narcissists? Is there anything else you think that's important for us? I think that one in five of your friends is a narcissist.

So again, if we're using this number of 20%, okay, which I don't think is a bad number, to be honest with you. I think that just in, I mean, it's a spitball number and it's just sort of boiled up in this world and it may be a urban myth. I don't know. It's hard to get good data on this, right? You know, the assessment of narcissism is one of the hardest things in the business of measurement and psychology because who's going to be honest about it, right? There's all these back doors we try to do to figure it out. But I'd say the other things, let's talk a little bit about what happens to a person who's been in a relationship with a narcissist. Tell me that. Because I think that we've been talking, we've been so much focused on the.

Narcissist, the question is, what if I've just been through this?

Is there a sense of PTS that you're gonna face? A lot of PTS. You'll see it's a, there's confusion, self-doubt, a sense of powerlessness, helplessness, sometimes even hopelessness, anxiety, a lack of not feeling motivated anymore, sort of a sense of like, I can't be bothered. with life, rumination, regret, something we call euphoric recall. You remember the good parts of the relationship and say, why can't we have that part again? I'm like, no, because that part wasn't really real. It was real.

It was like this explosive.

It's when people have physical symptoms, they have trouble sleeping because of the rumination. They might find themselves engaging in less behaviors that are involved, like self-care behaviors, we call them. Things like, working out or eating well or even taking their medications on time. They just almost let themselves go because being in these relationships is just basically like completely being, you know, overwhelmed by them. So people aren't in good shape when they're coming out of these relationships. Because they'll start beating themselves up. How could I stay in this?

What was I thinking? I'm an idiot, you know?

Worst part, it's the self-blame and the self-shame because the self-blame is, this is my fault. I'm the one who stayed. I should have known that I'm, I'm, I'm in. And then I'm a fool. And then they, a lot of people go back. Why? Because they think, let's talk a little bit. I want my whiteboard. Yes.

I got to use the whiteboard.

So here we go. So let's talk about the narcissistic relationship cycle, okay? Okay. Step one is something called, I'm gonna write it down, I'll lift it up. Love bombing. Okay?

Okay.

Text bombing is that big seductive, exciting experience that happens early in a relationship. We have a magical connection. Let's have a picnic on the beach, wild and crazy sex, texting for 12 hours straight. Good morning, princess. Good night, my darling. Let's take a vacation for our third date. I want you to meet all my friends. I'm so into you. Let's move in after a month my lease is up. Love bombing. It's exciting, it's intoxicating, it's seductive and what it does, it's a narcissist ground game. That's how they're able to get you to not notice all the red flags because you're so focused on the ten dozen roses on your doorstep that you're all like, or the unreal sex you're having or these amazing like constantly being these text messages or going to San Francisco on your fourth date, you know, and you're thinking like, okay, red flag, what red flags? I'm having some fun.

That's incredible, yeah.

The minute the narcissist knows they've got you, when you kind of let down your guard, 'cause some people are like, this seems too good to be true. And then they're like, okay, I love you too. I'm, boom, that's the day something called devaluing starts. Okay? Now devaluing is characterized by invalidation, Little digs, like, oh gosh, you know, my ex-girlfriend could cook. Or, oh my gosh, you know, it's like the digs. It's little, it's subtle. You're like, where did this go? Like, where's this? Because it's not feeling so good. And people in devaluing are confused as heck. They're thinking, how do I get back here? Now they start blaming themselves. Because it was this, now it's this, it must be me.

Oh my gosh. Okay. Now then, we can go through my life right now. Okay.

We go to something called the discard. Now, the discard is not always a breakup. Okay.

Is this where they won't speak to you for two weeks?

It's the silent treatment. It's the deeper level manipulation. It could be infidelity. It could be significant lying. It could be, Even sometimes even the other person leaves the relationship at this point. Like the not narcissistic person leaves.

Like I'm out.

I'm out. I can't do this. And then comes a phase.

Oh my gosh.

Called hoovering. Hoovering is when the narcissist tries to suck you back in. They don't like to lose. And in the majority of cases, once after the discard, they try to woo you back. Try to woo you back. Love bombing part two. Now love bombing part two is never as heavy as love bombing Part one, it's always love bombing light the second time around. But it'll be like, seductive. It's a, baby, what was I thinking? You're the best thing that ever happened to me. And this could be because they cheated on you. And they say things like, you,'re so much better. And you know what? People fall for that because that's that triangulation dynamic, that idea very edible that you're the favored child, that you're the favored one. And the hoovering is, I'm choosing you. Then in the part of the hoovering is a dynamic called, you,'re gonna love this one, it's my guess after the way you've been putting future faking. Future faking is, no, as soon as this deadline is done, we're going to, or I'm gonna get therapy, or I know, let's just put it off for another six months, for sure I'm gonna do it then. They keep moving the goalposts. And future faking is what keeps people in the game because they're like, they're promising the thing you want six months We're gonna have kids. We're gonna have kids. Yeah, for sure. You know, like, I just need to get my career established, and now you're 50 and you don't have kids. Or we're gonna, you know, we're gonna definitely move closer to your parents. I know we had talked about moving back there, and I know you said there's some better opportunities for you. Yours, you're waiting. Or, I'm gonna get into therapy. I'm gonna work on these anger issues. And then if you push it, God, you know what? You're really impatient.

You're like, you are not a nice And just see what I'm going through in my life and I need time. Yeah.

That's the cycle of every narcissistic relationship. Not everybody gets hoovered, okay? Sometimes the narcissist moves into something else and then they're done. And so people sometimes feel bad if they're not hoovered. They're like, what's wrong with me? It doesn't always happen and consider yourself lucky. I always say, the lucky are not hoovered, because then it goes back to, the cycle goes again and again and again. So what is hoovering again? Hoovering is when they try to woo you back in. Oh, they bring you back in. And they'll do that if let's say they're the one who left you, okay? And you finally start getting your life in order and maybe you're dating someone else and they find out that's when they want you back. They just want to mess your stuff up or you're in a good place in your job. They don't want you happy. They don't like losing and they don't like the idea of anyone else winning. It's all about domination.

Oh my gosh.

So I tell people, maybe you could get a good A good trip to San Francisco, and a couple of flowers, and get out. And then get out, before you get in too deep.

But if that happens where they'll give you like a month or six weeks or two months of love bombing on you, and then you're like, you know what? They're gonna get mad. I'm not in the right place, this isn't for me, like it's not you, it's me, I'm not ready, they're gonna get mad. So either way, once you go on.

The first weekend love bomb extravaganza, you're, you're kind of sunk. Yeah, because they actually, you want to get out the first weekend. You want to get out. Listen, here's an interesting tell on narcissistic people. And it applies more in LA than in a place like New York. They drive really badly. They drive dangerously. They cut people off and they come up on their bumpers and they cut people off at the last second.

Oh my gosh.

And that's actually been documented in research.

So a narcissist is a bad driver.

Bad driver. Dangerous driver, not bad, not like dumb driver. Fast, cut people off, Hong Kong road rage driver.

Anything else we should talk about?

Last thing.

Yes, give it to me.

Gaslighting.

Oh, I wanted to ask that. I had a question.

Gaslighting is the word of our time, and if nothing else, I want your podcast is so amazing that I want to make sure that people get things right here.

So, what is gaslighting?

Gaslighting is the denial of a person's reality and the taking apart of another person so that they have completely not only given up on their reality, they've given up on themselves. So let me say that in a little bit more of a clear way. Gaslighting is a grooming process. It's not a one-off, right? So let's say a day like today, we'd set up our shoot and everything, and I were to say, and we had our time, we were going to meet the date. And I said, you never said we were meeting on that day. You'd be like, what? And then you go back to your email and say, no, it's right there, right? But for a minute, you might have doubted yourself. I don't have that much power to gaslight you because we don't really know each other. Maybe you trust me a little, but it would be enough to throw you off for a minute, say, Did I not send that email right? And you catch yourself. Okay? The reason it's called a grooming process is it happens over and over again. I never said that. I never did that. You're being too sensitive. Stop making such a big deal about that. You really aren't committed to this relationship. and they keep saying things to you that are not your reality. So what do people do when they're gaslighted initially? They defend themselves. No, no, no, you did. You really did. Like you said that. Or, I'm not being too sensitive. And now you're getting more and more worked up.

Right.

Yeah.

And then they'll say things to you like, oh, yikes, somebody is a little bit crazy. Like, have you seen a therapist? So now what are they doing? Not only they doubted your reality and you're a little off balance, then boom, they close it by saying there's something wrong with you.

Oh man.

And you start believing it.

Oh wow.

Many people are gaslighted, will start wondering maybe I'm the narcissist, maybe I have a mental illness, maybe I need to get help, there's something wrong with me. And at that point, the gaslighter fully controls this person.

Oh my gosh.

That's the process. And so, but initially the person who's being gaslighted has some level of trust in the gaslighter. Maybe they're in a new relationship together, maybe this is a family member, maybe it's a boss or a respected colleague. You've got to have a little of that from the jump. There has to be some skin in the game for someone to be able to gaslight someone. Then they're groomed. Now, let's say the first time someone gaslights you, you say, no, here's the email. This is the time you said we're meeting and don't ever do that to me again. The gaslighter's probably going to move on to a new target. They'll stop with you. Yeah, so they'll say, that's not a fertile target. I'm going to move on to another one. So early on when a person or a person says you're being too sensitive, say, no, that's my emotion. Don't you dare play judge and jury on my emotions. I'm sad right now. I'm going to stick with that.

That's what I'm talking about. That's a good one.

And then the gaslighter will probably lose interest, but they'll always get their last dig in. They'll say, she's just a really difficult person. So they'll still have to get their parting shot and say, I, I'll wear that as a badge of honor. But you, but just look how solid you have to be in yourself and understand gaslighting. In fact, I'm doing a gaslighting seminar on Saturday, literally three hours all gaslighting, because that's how much people are confused by this. It happens at work, it happens in families, it happens in intimate relationships, it happens from the world at large. Like, no, everyone can, the playing field's equal. And then the people are like, it can't be equal, because I can't get job.

So the first time you feel like someone's gaslighting you, what should you say without them saying, because I feel like this has happened to me in a previous relationship where I'd be like, no, I never said that. And then it was like they bring up three other things that were unrelated to try to confuse and be like, well, this, this, this, this, and I'd be like, just focus on the one thing we're talking about, and so I have to go around all these other things and talk about them. where I forget what we were talking about in the first place.

That's gaslighting. That all that is exhaustion. It's very exhausting.

It's like, let's just focus on this thing.

So a great example, a gaslighting thing that people will do is they will say something like in a relationship. And, you know, I'm really uncomfortable with how much time you've been spending with that person. And there's been a lot of communication between the two of you. Like, it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel to me, this feels shady. It feels like a boundary violation. Like, this isn't okay. They'll hit back with, let's go back to when you were in college and you're like, wait a minute. And then you know what I tell people? Have a whiteboard, say, okay, I'm gonna table that. Let's we'll get to that. Let's write that down. I don't want us to not talk about it.

Let's go back to the original issue. So keep going back to the original issue. Until they have a discussion and resolve.

They'll get mad.

And they won't discuss. They won't discuss. So how do you find resolve? You don't find resolve.

In these relationships. There is no resolve. There is no closure.

And that's the radical acceptance. So you just got to accept this person isn't going to have these conversations. This person's not going to have rationality for certain things. It's going to be their way or the highway. Correct. And they won't be flexible. Nope. And you've either got to live with it and accept it for a certain period of time, or you can choose to move on. Right. But being in an argument is only going to make your life correct.

And you might say like that seems lonely, yeah. And so I have worked with people who have stayed in long-term narcissistic relationships, who have done everything from get very involved in like a religious community, church community, something like that, to do a lot of things with their friends, really build friendships.

Unless the narcissist tries to control them hanging out with their friends.

If you have a controlling narcissist. None of this will work like malignant narcissist. It won't work. But if you can build out friendships, if you can build out collegial relationships, if you're working church community, some people do this in online communities if they're not able to easily get out of the house and have friendships that way, develop hobbies, they care deeply about a garden, building something, whatever their groove is music, something like that. I've known people to have lovers, you know, to say like, I haven't, my body hasn't been touched in 15 years. And so they'll do that. And they'll say, I felt a little guilty, but they're having sex with other people. I haven't been touched. And they're like, you know, I know I'm not. Yeah. Like, I know I'm not very attractive, but they found, everyone's got someone. Everyone finds someone, and they find there's someone. And so I've heard it all. I've heard people do all kinds of things. Finding their way, finding their way to get that support on the, when they're not being, when, when they have to stay. Because that's where you get ungaslighted, right? Person saying, no, that's not okay or this person's conduct isn't okay. But I think where most people destroy themselves is they're like a moth to flame. They're like, I can fix this. And I'm telling you here, you can't.

Stop trying to fix it. Stop trying to fix it.

It's just not gonna work. That was probably my challenge, is I wanted to fix-- which again, your athletic background makes sense. I mean, there are people who have had a track record of being able to get get things done, they're the ones who are very vulnerable to staying in these relationships too long.

I think I was attracted to it and then one of the things that's attractive. And then I was just like, it just becomes exhausting when it's a full energy on someone else as opposed to a combination of let's work together on a shared vision towards our relationship, towards life, not all the energy in one place.

Correct, correct. And it's draining. It is very draining And I think a lot of people do feel like, you know, a good relationship is me doing everything they ask or catering to them. No, a relationship is being unselfish. No, it's about give and take. I'm not saying transactional give and take. It's that you feel supported enough that when they say, Hey, do you mind going to this dinner for work? And you're like, Of course I'll go to that dinner for work, because you care about them. And even if you both think it's ridiculous, you're kind of giggling at each other or, you know, having fun with it is that you understand that there's a give and take and you give graciously and the other person gives graciously. This isn't just about grinding your teeth and being irritated you have to go, but really that giving with grace. But I'll be frank with you, it really comes down though to finding somebody who has a good personality. And I keep using this word agreeableness, right?

Being agreeable.

Being agreeable. And that's actually a personality Style.

How do you know when someone's agreeable?

All those things I talked about flexibility.

And warmth and kindness. Just the time, seeing it over time.

Seeing their words, their actions.

Agreeable men make less money.

Agreeable men make less money. The research has shown that pretty clearly. Bless their hearts. And so for everyone out there who wants somebody who's got the money and the stuff, the probability that that person's.

Gonna be agreeable is a lot lower. So you just need to find a unicorn, someone who's agreeable and who has money. I have not. You've never seen that?

I very, I know, yes I have. I can think of one person off the top of my head.

Okay.

Billionaire, most agreeable man in the world, sweet, sweet, married to a raging narcissist. Do you care?

Oh man.

He's a darling, darling.

Man, but just gets walked all over in his relationships.

Oh my god, beyond. Walked all over.

But in his business, he can go and have- killed it. he can be assertive and yeah, I've.

Met a few agreeable rich folks. I mean really, and we're not just rich, like really good at what they do. They, unicorns, like they definitely, but what was interesting, you know, with some of the, a couple of these folks, agreeable, very wealthy, at the end of their career, they got taken down. They got like people in the company, they were a soft target.

They were the vulnerable targets. So we're gonna make them scapegoat and they're gonna take the equity from them.

Or they're gonna be the one to blame.

They did, they got a group of people to blame.

Because they weren't willing to fight for what they.

Well, no, they weren't willing to be disagreeable.

They just wanted to keep the peace at all costs or whatever.

And because they were collaborative people, they actually thought they were bringing up the next generation. It's interesting because, man, over the last decade, I really started doing a lot of healing work when I turned 30. I've talked about this many times on my show. that I was sexually abused when I was five by a man that I didn't know. And it definitely shaped a part of me for my life until I started to heal that process and really go through a healing journey of the shame that I felt for so long, the guilt, the insecurity, the not feeling enough or not feeling lovable, all these different things, and to kind of reshaping the story, the narrative. and finding the value in the process and in the pain, I guess, and really finding the value from 25 years of holding it in and channeling it, saying, How can I be of service at a greater level? How can I use this to support other men who have gone through sexual abuse? And that's why I wrote the book, the Masked Man. One in six men have been sexually abused, one in four women, obviously. And what I always tell people is that men just don't talk about it. And they hold it in and then they become angry or reactive or rageful or dismissive or whatever it is, they put a mask on. And that shame causes that mask. At least it did for me and a lot of men that I've talked to. So for many years, I had to learn how to unwind and heal that process. It's been a beautiful journey of healing where I can, because I used to be very competitive. It was like I had to win at all costs. And now I'm like, well, that didn't work for me. It got me results, but it left me feeling empty and alone and unfulfilled, and I didn't have peace because I always needed to win. Then I started transitioning and when I hit 30 to, I just want to collaborate and I just want to support others and work together, and it feels a lot more peaceful inside. and fulfilling.

What do you think the function was of trying to win?

Oh, to get love and be accepted. To get love and be accepted.

I was gonna say maybe to be safe.

Yeah.

To get love, to be accepted, to feel like I was, yeah, to fit in, you know, because I didn't feel I had any friends growing up. So it was like, well, if I win, people recognize me and they like me. Right, right. And I'm desirable.

Right.

If I lose, then who wants to be, you know, around me?

Yeah. And then the shame it's activated, but it's also safety. That's why that idea, if I win, I'm safe. That's the ultimate get for any human being. I'm not alone. I'm not alone if I'm accepted, I'm safe.

If I'm loved, I'm safe. And it's funny, when I moved into, and Jay Shetty talks about this a lot, when I talk with Jay about this, he's like, just being in collaboration is the key. And I was like, I know that's what I feel like over the last.

Eight years, because you're safe when you're still collaborating. You're still with people. You're helping each other.

Accelerate together.

Right, but there's a fear, and I think one of the big impediments to collaboration is the sense that others will leave you behind. So if you become an island unto yourself, you feel safer, right? So I think that's often a blockade. And then, I'm at the top of the mountain, everyone else is down. Yes, if they leave you, it's not even the collaboration that's the issue, it's.

The potential for abandonment. Interesting. Like if I'm in this business, like the billionaire friend, I'm at the top, but then and I collaborate with others, but then they take it all and they leave me behind.

Well, they took it all away. I mean, this was somebody and that man, that agreeable billionaire, was collaborative from the day one of his career.

So how do you stay collaborative and live in abundance and want others to win around you, but also not get taken advantage of?

It's not easy. With the one in five number I'm giving you, it's not easy. I mean, it is, you know, what is the best offense? It's a good defense. You better have a good Defense.

Get your contracts in order.

Get everything. Contracts in order, document. Don't put your head in the sand. I mean, the reason narcissism is proliferated the way it has is enabling. People keep giving it a free pass. Oh, come on now. You know, don't hate the player, hate the game. It's not how that works, right? It's a player. And yeah, so it's a player. Yeah.

No.

So like it's, it's a, we have all this kind of culture around, and in some ways people like want to.

They.

The best example I can give is that people hate the idea. When we see a magician do a trick, we know they didn't do magic. We know they had something up their sleeve, but we want to believe it's magic because that makes the world seem more interesting. With narcissists, we want to believe in the magic.

We want to believe they're... We want.

To believe that they're going to be... We want to believe that this charismatic person is really is real. That someone this larger than life is larger than life, rather than an ordinary person who just has ordinary things and could fall and, you know, and we want superheroes. We want, that's why we've always written myths as a species. But the myths should remain stories, not the person who's trying to scream at you from the other cubicle.

I'm reading that. You've got some great books.

Thank you.

Don't you know who I am? How to stay sane in an era of narcissism, entitlement, and incivility. And you've also got another book called Should I Stay or Should I Go? I'm just laughing because of all my experiences in my life. Should I stay or should I go? Surviving a relationship with a narcissist, it just feels like the best way to set yourself up for success is don't commit to being in a relationship with one in the first place. Take it slow. Learn the person. Learn as long as you can. Spot the red flags. You talk a lot about this in these books. You talk about this on your YouTube channel, which is amazing. I was watching some of the videos, very inspiring. So if you want to make sure you learn this, I would do not get committed until you learn the person you're with.

Learn the person, take it slow, and don't justify bad behavior. When you witness bad behavior, unfortunately, it's like, you know, if it walks like a duck, And it quacks like a duck. You know, scorpion sting. There are no such things as scorpions that hug. And so, you know, once you see a scorpion, you just got, it's gonna sting you. So walk the other way. And once it stings you once, don't.

Pick it up again. How else can we be supportive of you right now besides checking out your website, YouTube, social media, the books?

You do workshops now? I do workshops. If you go to my Instagram, follow me on Instagram, we often put, you know, we put the let people know what's coming up then. We're gonna have a healing program and recovery program for people who've been through narcissistic relationships. That's coming up next year. Yeah, just follow me on YouTube. We're always making our announcements. Every day we have a new video coming out. So, you will be 365 days wiser.

If you just keep watching. Yeah.

Dr. Ramani everywhere, right?

Yeah, Dr. Ramani everywhere. Everywhere, there we go. Okay, cool. A couple final questions. This one is called the Three Truths. That's what I asked everyone at the end of our of views. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. It's your last day on Earth, many years away. You get to live as long as you want, but it's the last day. And for whatever reason, all the content you've ever created has to go with you or go somewhere else. But it's not here. We don't have access to any of your information anymore. Books, the videos, everything's gone. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true from all your life lessons and experiences. And this is all we would have from your information. What would you say would be those three lessons or three truths?

If someone else is cruel to you, it's not your fault. You came into this world lovable and will always be lovable. Trust and honor your truth, and don't let anyone ever take it away from you.

Those are beautiful. Those are beautiful. Before I ask the final question, Dr. Ramani, I want to acknowledge you for your commitment to this information, to this message. I feel like there's a lot of people, including myself, who have gone through a lot of this, who have always struggled feeling like they're wrong and they're bad and they're not good enough in these types of relationships. And so for you to commit your adult life to this, to researching, studying, teaching in the university on an academic level, and now to the masses with your information, your books, your content, I really acknowledge you. for the gift and also the pain that you went through in your journey to learn these things and experience it so you can help educate and teach others to hopefully heal the relationships they've been through, make sure they don't get in those relationships and have a much more peaceful life.

Well, I appreciate that. Pain is a hell of a mentor.

Absolutely it is. And it's gonna keep coming until we learn the lesson. It's gonna keep coming. My final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

My definition of greatness is humility, self-awareness, compassion, and empathy.

There you go, Dr. Ramani, thank you.

Appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now Now it's time to go out there and do something great.