How To Heal & Move On From Narcissistic Relationships w/ Dr. Ramani EP 1344

One thing I would tell people is don't shame your triggers because I think what people say, I don't want to be triggered. I'm like, nah, you know, you don't have that line into your sympathetic nervous system. It's always going to be quicker than you. So it because it's always going to be quicker, we have to be aware.

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When I work with survivors in my practice and when I speak to them in a subscription, like a sort of healing program I've got that people come every month, the one thing I say is you got a way to beat. The temptation is I'm gonna throw myself into a new relationship as a palate cleanser. you know what? Sit with that dirty palette for a minute because you need to do this work in you. Because I think the challenge is that when people get into narcissistic relationships or antagonistic or toxic relationships, they don't know what they're dealing with or they're replicating cycles from earlier in their life, right? Or both. And so what happens is that if you pivot too quickly, you don't get a chance to sort of know you. A narcissistic relationship does such a number on you. You have now been living in someone else's reality, right? People forget, like, do I like pepperoni pizza or do I enjoy this TV show or what temperature do I want the house at? Like, you literally lose sight of your own subjective sense of who you are. You lose sense of reality or your it and your own perception of things. You just lose it all because you literally have been living in psychological servitude to this other person. So I tell people, listen, my gold standard is a year. Give yourself a year, which I know is not a short period of time, and everyone's like, you know what? Take care of your own business. But a year, I understand that feels like a long time. But here's the thing. These relationships get so much into someone's head that in a year a person can re-coalesce and they can unpack it. and they can start putting down some of the rumination. You certainly don't want to do that in a new relationship, right?

You don't want to bring that.

You don't want to bring that in. And you can also learn what you like, what you don't like, so that when somebody encroaches on that and says, they say something contemptuous, oh, who eats that? Say, I get this is not okay. I'm not doing this again. You can start recognizing those patterns of what just doesn't feel right. But if you roll right into it, it's almost like a recreation of the old cycle. You need that separation. you need a break from anniversary dates. You need to have that first birthday alone, their first birthday alone, the holidays you do, the vacations you take. You've got to go live a life without them. And once you, because otherwise you're so again caught up, you might get caught up in someone else's sort of whole toxic bomb storm. So now I know a lot of people say, year just feels too long. I'm like, I got you. I get it. A year is optimal. And the Folks who've done it said, I don't regret doing that at all now. But for a lot of people, it might even be eight months, nine months. But there's a moment, Louis, after a narcissistic relationship, where a person will look up as they go to bed that night and say, oh my God, I didn't think of them once today. That's a good day.

That's an amazing day.

And I want not just one of those. I want a person to have a month of those. A while of those where they're just, you know, sure something might remind them or something, but not that like, what are they doing? What are they up to? Almost to the point where you've detached. It might even be a moderate indifference. Like, oh, whatever.

You know, let them do them.

It doesn't, like, trigger you. It doesn't set you off in the same way. But I do caution people, depending on the severity of the narcissistic relationship, sometimes people will report feeling those Echoes years down the line, even if they've fallen in love with someone else. And some, someone will say, does that mean I'm not over them? Not at all. It means that the way the trauma systems in the mind and the body hold on to information, it means that anything that reminds you of that can still activate you. I've been through this and I gotta tell you, to this day, I think if I saw some of the people who harmed me in the past, I can think of a few... -You never have a response. -Oh my gosh, beyond a response. I actually think I would have to, I would almost, it would be akin to panic. And I honestly do not care what happens to those people, but if I saw them, it would be really upsetting for me. It's not that I'm not over it, it's just that it's just my nervous.

System is just like danger, danger, danger, danger. Get away from this experience. Interesting. Wow. So the optimal is nine months to a year, but it's really more like taking the temperature of allowing your nervous system to heal, see if you can have a few days in a row and a month in a row where you're not thinking about that person or it's not triggering you consistently before you.

Enter into a new relationship. And that you're clearer on who you are. Because in a narcissistic relationship, you're defined by the relationship. Are they happy today? are we having a good day? Are they happy with their lives? It's everything is about them, right? So now for the first time, you make things be about you. Like, I'm good. Like, no, I want to pursue this job. Yeah, no, I'm moving to New York and not like, oh, is this gonna work? You for a minute. You. And when you meet your person, capital P, and it's healthy, they might say like, ah, you know what? For about Six months we can do this long distance or I can work remotely. I'll come to New York or we'll figure it out. You'll start to see that there's a possibility for compromise. But I do think that a lot of people after a narcissistic relationship, their trip wire is a bit more sensitive and they may throw back a few fish that are big enough to keep and that's okay. I'd rather that they people overcorrect than undercorrect and they might say, Am I... and this is where again, when I work with clients, they'll say, Am I being too intense about this? Is this too big and ask nine times out of ten, Louis, it's not too big. Like they're right on point with the thing they're sensing feels red flaggy to them or doesn't feel comfortable or something doesn't isn't sitting well.

And I'm teaching people listen to that. It's so funny you're saying this because when I got into my relationship with Martha, my girlfriend now, in the beginning, I was like, Listen, part of, I think I specifically said to her, like, I kind of want you to run away from me because I want to be so authentically myself that it either draws you into me because you accept and receive who I am, or it kind of repels you away from me of, like, my truth and my vision and my mission and who I am in this world and my being, right? My, what I want to create in this life. Because I think I gave in so much in previous relationships to please others and to be change who I was and morph to make sure they were okay and happy, which is all my responsibility for doing that. But I was like, I'm not changing who I am just to make one person happy. I'm going to, this is who I am. If you want to hang out and be friends and see how it goes, cool. If not, that's cool too. But I'm not going to change myself to try to get you to like me. and make you constantly happy. Or anytime you're upset at me for doing something, I'm gonna stop doing it just to make you happy and be an edge. And I'm so glad that I did that. Part of me was like probably some PTSD in the beginning where I was like, I'm just doing this to protect myself. Because I'd rather be single.

Correct.

Then get into a relationship that's unhealthy.

And that's the key, right there. I'd rather be single than get into a relationship that's unhealthy. And that's because that's the that's what people are afraid of.

Yeah, and I was like, I'll be single the rest of my life. If it means I'm not gonna be in this type of relationships that I've been in the previous. And it's creating a new standard for myself. You know, what I'll allow in and what I want to allow, what boundaries I'll create and making sure that it's in alignment with my partner as well. And I'm glad I did that. Even though in the beginning, she's like, you might have a little PTSD still from the previous relationship. I'm kind of glad that I came with that.

I would call it, I was very.

Courageous in my communication about this is my truth. And it may scare you away. And I have to be okay if you're not correcting it. I have to be okay if you don't like me.

Correct.

And here's like an amazing woman that may not want to be with me. And I have to be okay with that. Yes. But it's not giving in anymore. Right.

It's not giving in.

And I think that that's the key. Yeah. And it was a beautiful experiment for me entering a relationship that way about being honest about this is who I am. This is my values. This is my vision. this is what I'm aligned to and what I'm not aligned to. If this is something you want to explore, then let's keep dating and exploring it and seeing how it goes. And I think that was a beautiful experience for me to witness the receiving of that on the other side and just being consistent with my word. You know, this is what I want, this is what I not want, and being in that place. But how can we make sure, but in the beginning, I'll probably say there was a little PTSD remnants of it. How can we make sure we don't bring in that energy? Is it just waiting for a year and nine months and doing the work on the healing process? But how do we not bring any of that past relationship into new relationships?

When you say bring that past relationship into new relationships, what do you think that looks like? What do you mean by that?

The traumas of the past relationship, the trigger responses, the things that you did in previous relationships to protect yourself? How do you continue to keep an open heart and open mind and not go back into the default?

-Right. So, one thing I would tell people is don't shame your triggers. Because I think what people say, I don't want to be triggered. I'm like, nah, you know, you don't have that line into your sympathetic nervous system. It's always going to be quicker than you. So, it is because it's always going to be quicker. We have to be aware. For example, sometimes we even feel it. Like, I know that for people in a relationship, Something will happen. They'll hear something and they'll feel that tightness in their chest, that funniness in their gut, right? The key then becomes is to say, okay, I am uncomfortable. Let me hear through that. That's where the mindfulness, you almost gotta try to punch through that. Let me be present with what they're saying. Even though, you know, it's almost like trying to listen to someone in a noisy bar at that point. You know, when you lean in, you're like, okay, I'm fully concentrating on what this person's saying, oh, it's distracting. It's chaos around me, but I said that, that chaos, that sympathetic nervous system turning on, is like the noise in a bar. So now you're really leaning in, you're looking at them. I know when I have that response, I literally watch their mouth because I'm like, okay, I can shape out the words. And it almost gives me a totally mindful space to watch them shape the words. It's almost like you can think of it in a movie when they go right to someone's mouth. And so now I'm really paying attention to what they're saying because the, the danger of the trigger is that we don't hear. Right? So it's to be aware. We're in freeze mode. Our eyes become wide the whole nine yards. We feel that and then we start to name it and say, I can feel that I'm getting activated like I did before. I've really got to listen. I'm not going to, because we can't, you're not going to turn that off. That's my point is that people say, I've got to wait till I can turn it off. I'm like, then you're going to be 117 and that's when you're going to start dating again, which I'm sure You're gonna be, you know, there's a great dating pool, I'm sure, no doubt, but at that point of the other 117 year olds. But no, you can't, otherwise you're forever, then you're living in, you're still living in service to that relationship. And the whole idea is to no longer live in service to your narcissistic relationship. To the past where that's interesting. To the past relationship. So the trigger then becomes, to me, triggers are communication. Your nervous system is saying, Whoa, something dangerous is happening. And you're kind of saying, I get it. I need to listen. This is new. Because when you think of what post-traumatic stress is, right? It's a programming. So if you use a classical example, I know a person got into an accident on a particular stretch of the freeway, right? So they avoid that road, right? And let's say then one day the Uber driver takes that road and their heart is racing because that's almost been sort of imprinted in. But you know what? You go down that road enough times, times you set, you don't let the racing heart say, I can't go on this road. Something terrible is going to happen. You say, okay, I'm going to tolerate this. Maybe you have someone in the car with you the first time. So it, you can't stop living, but you, you can also hear those triggers happening. And in the new relationship, give yourself permission to communicate, not say, like, I'm being triggered and I think you're cheating on me. That might be a little heavy and say, you know, I need a minute. I, you know, in my past, X and Y happened. So at these moments, I know it just, it takes me a minute. Can you, it's hard for me. My trust was betrayed. So I'm going to need time to build that trust. I always say that in some ways, people coming out of narcissistic relationships are at an incredible advantage. Because if you can really be honest with yourself about saying, I'm going to ask for what I need, and if this person ain't going to give it, then maybe this isn't my person. And time is a big one. Narcissistic relationships are usually like this. Fast, fast, fast. Right? Let's do this. We're in love. This is the best thing ever. Let's move in. Let's do this. Let's go to Paris for three years. Like whatever kind of over-the-top stuff. But time is usually a way that people can build trust. You can see that there's a new way to respond. A loving, kind person will say, we're good. We're going to take this really, really slow if, if you need that, because then that's telling you that this person's hearing you on one of many things you need someone in an intimate relationship to do. And maybe because I'm older, I say the, I think and say these things is that, you know, this, forgive me, this is going to sound so off color, but I'm just going to say it is the, I call it the a** wiping test. I need you to look at this person, you know, everyone's young and beautiful and dating. I want you to fast forward to you're 85 or maybe 90 and you've snapped a hip or something. This person's gonna wipe your and be loving about it. And if the answer is yes, it's probably a keeper. But if you think like this person's gonna sneer or doesn't wanna be in the hospital, no, not your person. And I know that, but if you're really thinking you're gonna go the distance with this person, Are they going to stay up all night with a kid who has diarrhea? Are they going to wipe your ass? Are they going to be okay when things are no longer okay? Because that's where narcissistic relationships fall apart, when real life comes along. So try that test. I'll tell you now, ain't no narcissist and we're gonna wipe your ass. I promise you that right now.

Yeah, I think Esther Perel talks about the difference between a love story and a life story. Or a love partner and a life partner, right? Where it's like you could have, romance and adventure and, you know, crazy sex with a love partner, right? But are they gonna be a great life partner for you during these times you're talking about?

Correct.

There's also kind of like the, someone else mentioned this, I can't remember who, the 10,000 meal test. Do you want to have 10,000 meals with this individual? If every other meal they're exhausting to be around and they're ungrateful and they're gaslighting you or whatever they're doing, Do you want 10,000 of these?

I love that.

For the rest of your life? Can you imagine sitting down for 10,000 meals with this person? So that's why I think 10,000 meals, life story, all these things I think are great. But I feel like, I'll speak from example, I used to get caught up so much in the passion, the excitement, the chemicals of the early relationship moments. I used to think, this is incredible, this feeling, this love. and then six months, nine months, 12 months, it's like you start to unwind and realize, well, what are, do we have the same values and are we in alignment of what life looks like together and our lifestyle? And then you try to, I tried to make it work, right? So it was always out of alignment from the start. And you mentioned something off camera about, you know, when we find someone who is quote unquote boring, that's a great sign.

Especially for people of histories of trauma.

Yes.

I mean, I think that for some folks, you know, it's the, again, the activation, the trauma bond, the sort of hot and cold is what equals love, that I need to earn love, that I constantly have to feel like I'm running faster and faster on the treadmill becomes equated with love. That's the love equals chaos kind of thing. So the person where it's kind of like- It's not healthy love. It's flat. It's not. The flatness though, and I think, I even hate the word boring where as much as it's not volatile. It's calm. Right. It's calm. It's calm.

Run towards the calm.

Calm is, those are what long-term relationships look like. But I think people, they want the chaos. They want, the chaos becomes, it's not even that they want the chaos, it's that chaos equals love. They want love. And so it's a rewriting of that. Love is stable.

Why do they, why do people, you know, I'm as guilty as anyone in the past for this. Why do people feel loved or think it's love when there's explosiveness or there's chaos or there's someone screaming at you and then apologizing. And it's this pattern. Why does that feel like love? Is that because we maybe saw this as a model as our childhood from our parents? Or why does that, why do some people feel that's love where others can see that's not healthy? I don't want that.

Well, I mean, part of it goes to this concept of trauma bonding, which is sort of the core of the narcissistic relationship. And in the trauma bond is formed by a relationship that has an alternation of good and bad, hot and cold, high and low. So in a way you're sort of chasing a high because where there's a bad day, guess what's going to come again? Makeup sex or whatever makeup looks like, right? Because as a kid, what it was was that you'd live for those good days. Despite all the abuse, then there'd be a fishing trip. Despite all those bad days, then your parent would do something, there'd be something so quick quirky and fun about them, or you're like the day they do something good, now you could go back to constructing the narrative that I come from a normal happy family. That is the origination of that trauma bond. But then in order to keep the mindset that the relationship's good, you have to justify, justify, justify. You have to make sense of those bad days to fit the good days. So the justification and the denial become big parts of the trauma bonded theme.

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Fidelity Brokerage Services member NYSC SIPC. Now obviously that trauma bond is going to play out a lot more powerfully in somebody who has that in their back story because your entire childhood was wired around how can I get this parent to notice me? How can I be seen? How can I be heard? How can I be cherished? It's about a chase because that child was put in the unfortunate position of believing they had to earn that or even worse, their needs were shamed and their parent resented them for having needs. So they learned, well, if I'm going to be in love, got to be quiet, can't bring up my needs. There's going to be bad days, but then there's going to be good days. And those bad days are because, well, maybe I was too demanding or you know, maybe I'm expecting too much, so a lot of it becomes self-blame focused, and that becomes a really profound kind of connective tissue. It's not to say though, people who, not everybody who gets into a trauma-bonded relationship has that history. They're by far the people who are going to be more vulnerable, but because narcissism is about such a good front game, right? The charm, the charisma, the love bombing, you, you feel like you're in something really, really special. But the reason narcissistic relationships are so confusing is because there's enough good days to confuse you and the good days are good.

-Right.

-I mean, they're really, really good. -They're over the top. -Yeah, they're over the top and they sort of feel perfect and remember- -You.

Try to go back to that, right?

-You go back to it. But the thing we got to remember is sometimes those good days even stay in there years later. you know that it's whatever that moment is and narcissistic relationships are all about alignment. If they're having a good day, right? For whatever, maybe that good day at work or maybe they flirted with someone at the gym, you don't know what it is. Then the narcissist. The narcissist. And you are having, happened to have a good day, something good happened to you and you're both, then you're like, they get me and they love me. No, it's just coincidence, a fortunate coincidence. And then, because the narcissist could just as easily have had a bad day. Their car got dinged in the parking lot, their friend got the raise and the promotion and they didn't get it. Angry, angry, angry. You had that same good day, they will invalidate, they will criticize. So it's all about alignment and timing and that alignment is what makes people say, ah, we have such a great relationship. I'm like, it just sounds like you're connected. We're connected, we have great chemistry.

Yeah, it's like you thinking like roulette can be gamed. I'm like, you got lucky on the double zero. So funny you say that. I mean, I'm gonna start having flashbacks now in memories, like I did in the last interview, where I remember a time for a few years, I had this dream of going to the Olympics. And making the USA, first it was making the USA national team, so I had the opportunity to go to the Olympics.

When you said go to the Olympics, I'm like, to watch. So you see your dreams are up here.

This was 2008. 2008, I watched, I just got in a, I had surgery playing professional football, broke my wrist, had a cast on my arm from here to here for six months in this position, just got it off and the Olympics came on. And so I was kind of down in the dumps because I couldn't train, I couldn't play football anymore. But I was watching Olympics getting inspired and I see this sport at like 3:00 a.m. in the morning that I'd never seen before in my life called team handball.

Oh yeah.

It's not well known in the US, but it's a big sport in Europe. It's kind of like water polo on land. On land, yes. With no water. And I watch this and my mind is blown. I'm like, this is incredible. This looks like the sport I should have learned growing up. I'm built for this. I'm the size. I got the speed. This is my game. And it gave me this opening into a new possibility in my life. Let me research this. Maybe there's a USA team. Maybe I could make the team. Maybe we could qualify for the Olympics. this is what happened in about 10 minutes of watching this sport in 2008. 2010 rolls around. I moved to New York City to play for a team on Team Handball, the top team in the country. I moved. New York City's got the best team and in the USA for the club teams. I moved there to literally to go learn this sport for a year. I meet a girl and this girl, we have this, you know, kind of this chemistry, this connection, all these things in the first, like, month or whatever, right? But then I start to see the signs later, but I wasn't aware of it. And she knew that this was a part of my dream. And I've been training this whole year for this chance to make the USA National team. They'd select 16 Americans.

Wow.

The whole population to be on the USA National Team. Wow. Been planning this for two years, training for a year, moved to a new state, new city to practice every week. I get an email and I'm with the person I was with at the time. I get an email that says, you,'ve been selected to the USA National Team.

Congratulations, I'm kind of excited.

I get it, because I was thinking about it, right? This was something the email was waiting for. You've been selected, you're going to the Pan American Championships with the National to compete for our country. And I'm reading this, I'm literally like so vulnerable and in tears, like thinking about this when I'm reading it. And I was with her, she was in the other room and I'd take it to her, I'm like, you,'re not gonna believe what happened. Look at this email. I just got, I'm like so excited. And right away she goes, man, I wish my career was doing better right now. There was no congratulations, there was no, it was like, God, I wish, She went to a depression, kind of.

Yeah, yeah.

It was like a depression of like, oh gosh, I wish I could do this with my career. I wish this was happening. And, ah, da, da, da. And so I put my attention on her to make sure she was okay. When I'm like, I've been dreaming about this for two years, but I'm busting my ass, like, telling you about this in my mind. But I was like, well, let me just make sure her needs are met in this moment and I'll get back to celebrating me one day. And it wasn't even an acknowledgement of like, congratulations, right? Anyways, this happened multiple times in many relationships, similar situations like that, which I didn't even know that was a sign, right?

I was just like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

I didn't know until I talked to you whenever this was six months ago or something. But, you know, let me remember where I was going with this, but just I think like the good days, it's like they had a good day.

Talking about alignment. Right.

But if they have a bad day and you have a good day, They're gonna kind of try to take you down, is what you said, right?

And your story is so interesting too, because who knows if she was having a bad day or not, but your good news is always a threat to a narcissistic person.

Why is that?

Always. So, you know, it's funny. Why is that? Because it, remember, at the core of it, narcissism is about insecurity. Deep, deep insecurity. We always think of these people as having really big self-esteem, They have what I can only call inaccurate self-esteem. They have this sort of falsely grandiose vision of themselves, but at this unprocessed, deep, unconscious level, it's not like they walk around thinking, I'm really insecure, so I better be grandiose. The insecurity is unprocessed. They're not even aware of it. They're not even aware of it. But it's almost like this nagging thing that's always in the background. So anything that activates that sense, like it's almost like it starts to percolate up out of the groundwater, that's when you'll see all kinds of things, passive aggression, which is what you were up against, a sullenness, resentment, sometimes overt aggression, because they're trying to protect themselves against the threat that this insecurity will pop up. That's the dance, right? So when I've worked with folks who are in narcissistic relationships, listen, people who have been married a long time or in long-term relationships or kids, it's not so easy to say just break up and follow your bliss. It just doesn't work that way. And so I'd say, okay, I'm gonna have to give you some strategies to stay in this. And I always call it the good, bad, indifferent rule. Never, ever share, never, ever let the narcissistic person be the first person you share your good news with. Never. You should have called your bestest person at that point. Who's gonna celebrate you? Who would have been like, oh my gosh, we all got him, right? Like the good thing happens and you're like, I gotta tell this person. And they're like, oh my gosh, 20 bottles of champagne. We're having a party. That's who you tell first. Then you got your other people who are gonna be happy for you. And then and only then do you tell the narcissistic person. Because at that point you felt that your good news was held and cherished and celebrated and you just feel happy. You shared it with people who are able to mirror it back to you, that feeling of goodness. That's what parenting is about, by the way, and your kid says, Look, Mommy, I got an A on my exam. Honey, that's so great. Not like, oh, I'm too busy to deal with that right now. And that's what kids who have narcissistic.

Parents get a lot of.

Like, I don't have time for that right now.

Success is never enough.

It's never enough. What else do I need to do to get the attention? But in adulthood, that mirroring matters. And then once you do that and you roll up to the narcissistic person, like, I wish my life was like that. In some ways, you've been so buoyed. that would be like, you know what? Like, you don't even, some people are like, whatever. You know, like, I hope it is too. I hope that works out for you. You feel good, you feel seen. And that's the good, the bad, same thing. Never go to a narcissistic person first with your bad stuff.

What happens when you share bad stuff?

They'll either feel inconvenienced, frustrated, what do you want me to do about this? Oh my gosh, like, oh, I'm under, so many things are being asked of me. They go into their vicar, thing.

Yeah, you figure it out.

Yeah, you figure it out. And you feel, let's say it's really bad news. Like I found out my mom is really sick or it turns out they're going to be downsizing my division and I'm probably going to be in that first round of layoffs or whatever it is. You find out your friend is ill or you're ill or something. More often than not, the narcissistic person, it's almost like they don't want to hear that there's real stuff that happens. in the world that has nothing to do with them. Your mother being sick has nothing to do with them. So they're really not that interested and that you might interrupt them and bring some like negative juju into their life. They don't want that. So I always say to people, have your people to take your bad news to so people can offer empathy, compassion, emotional support, practical support, and only as an afterthought will you say, because now you've been held, you've been supported, You might have the strength to say at some point, like, yeah, my mom's sick and they're going to have whatever foolish, you know, unempathic response they have, but now you've been supported. So that takes us to the indifferent. And I tell everyone in a narcissistic relationship, keep it in your phone. Make a little list of completely vacuous topics. The weather, they're building a new house across the way. Can you believe that new grocery store is coming into town? Back to the weather. You avoid anything that's a third rail, that's a sensitive issue, or where their negativity could hurt you. So then you can kind of keep the trains running on time. Like, can you believe this heat? It's great. I live out in the San Fernando Valley. So, can you believe this heat? In fact, all the narcissistic people out there are going to know now, I think they're narcissistic because that's how I always start the conversation. Can you believe this heat? But because there's nothing else to say.

So what do you say with the narcissist then? What can you talk about?

You're like you've taken out almost everything you can talk about.

But if you live with someone and you have kids with them and you have to interact.

Procedural stuff. And I think that what happens is people want a real partner. They want someone to share stuff with. I'm like, you're never gonna have that here. Within our relationship. You're never gonna have it, so give it up. So you're just gonna have to recognize, it might be things like who's taking him to soccer today? And if they say, I'm too busy to take him to soccer, realistic expectations, of course they're too busy. Say, Piece of cake, I got it. I always tell folks, if you're in a narcissistic relationship, you need to plan.

A, B, C, and D, because they are always going to let you down. Oh my gosh. Okay, so you mentioned a little moment ago about there are certain situations where you're not going to be able to get out of a relationship and follow your bliss. Yeah, no, you can. But is there a world where you could at some point, as opposed to saying, I've got to live in the next 30 years with this person or 10 years with this person. That sounds like a, you know, a free prison sentence. You're in the free world, but you're living a prison inside in your own home. That doesn't seem like a healthy lifestyle.

It's not. Because I work with such varied audiences, I'm very, very mindful of how painful it is for people to say, if you don't go then. Now, I've said to them, if you don't go, there's limits to how far I can take you on this growth process because you're still constantly having this echoing voice that invalidates you and reminds you of that invalidation, you know, in the next room. So there's only but there's only so much, but there's still a lot of growth. I mean, your life almost becomes a series of silent acts of rebellion. You know, some people literally, I know some folks told me, you know what? I was inspired by what you said, so. I just went to an online university and I got my degree and I never told him. Wow. And I was like, that's inner victories.

Yeah, inner like... That's a triumph. It's like everything is a little game.

For yourself to find your own joy. Correct. Or they volunteer in their community and what they recognize is that the volunteering is joyful. The narcissist would say to them, why would you want to help a bunch of people who are too stupid to help themselves? If anything, they'll say, They're horrible negativity only reinforces that I'm totally right about them. I'm not wrong about this. I'm not a bad person for recognizing that they're toxic, and I can go out and do something that fills my soul. But you're right, it's only a partial victory. But if you can get out, get out.

Right. Okay. So let me ask you this. So, again, I know there are certain cultures and situations and countries that probably have harder, harder restrictions of removing yourself. So. But it. Okay, so let's figure this out. It's going to be painful to stay in the marriage if there's with the narcissistic person. It's going to be extremely painful to leave for potentially years where you might have to find a whole new Community, move, you know, build friendships and relationships again, be on your own, all that stuff, but. If there's light at the end of the tunnel when you leave, you know, three, five, seven years out, as opposed to being in the relationship for that time, is that the better solution?

You know, I don't, I think that here, and it's so hard to say because if you, somebody said to me, tell me the best solution, take away all the contextual factors, it's obviously not to be in such a relationship. When we talk about how people manage themselves in these relationships, there's all these forms of contact you can have. And the most extreme is no contact, which means done. You block them, you cut them out, you don't speak to them, you don't take their calls, nada, nothing. And you know what? There's places I've actually seen the hard data on this, everyone will say, no contact, awesome. Like I feel so much better now that they no longer exist in my life. But it's a really limited strategy. If it's your family member, if it's someone you co-parent with, It's somebody you might still have professional contact with. So that's such an extreme that it might work like somebody, let's say someone dated someone and you don't have a ton of mutual friends and you move away physically, no contact can happen. And let me tell you, I've done no contact. Whew, it's good. Okay. Yeah. Then there's low contact. Now low contact can be done in a couple of different ways, but it tends to be, you know, what I'd say more perfunctory. You don't really engage with them. It's just really like, just sort of, let's say it's a family member, you've decided like, okay, this person's so bad for me. I want nothing to do with them, but your beloved cousin's getting married. You may just say to beloved cousin, just whatever the opposite side of the room for seating me is, I'd appreciate it. Maybe they come and talk to you and you give them very simple yes, no, kids are great responses. You go to the bathroom a lot when they approach you. People are going to think you have some sort of digestive problem, but it's a great out, but you step away and if it gets to be too much, you give yourself permission to leave. So it is, you know, low contact doesn't mean like they come to you and you don't speak to them. You might say, oh, hi, yeah, mm-, kids are great, yeah, mm-, it's been a long time. Yeah, I actually got to run to the restroom. It's one of those. Or I got to run, I've got to call or whatever. So you find your ways to maintain, and then you won't have contact with them maybe for 10 more years until there's another wedding or funeral something like that. So that's more of the low contact. And then there's all these techniques like gray rock and yellow rock, all these techniques to figure out ways to communicate. But the tool I give people, and I think maybe I talked about this last time, I don't remember, but it's something I call don't go deep with them, which means don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, and don't personalize. And it's a mantra, like don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize.

What happens if you do any of those?

If you defend, you're going to get in the mud with them and they like it and you get dirty. So that doesn't make sense. So you don't want, if you defend, it's just going to escalate and gaslight and fight and, and there's no point because you're not going to end in any kind of sane, rational place. When you explain, they will definitely gaslight you. So there's no point to that. Engaging means don't get into a conversation with them. Do not ask them what they think of something. Do not tell them that good news and don't personalize. this isn't about you. They do this to anyone in your position. They're going to manipulate. It's what they do. And so they're going to lie, they're going to gaslight. It's just how their personalities are organized. It's not about you. There's nothing you can do to change this. Not you, not me, not anybody. And so that's the, it's a really fun, then that's what we call radical acceptance and nothing you can do.

So chat.

It ain't gonna change and that's not because and a lot of people say, well, it's not gonna change because I'm not enough. It's not gonna change because it's not gonna change.

No one's ever enough for them. So, okay, let me ask you a practical question. There's different stages of being in a relationship, right? You meet someone, you go on a date with them. That's a certain stage of a relationship. You date for weeks, months, however long before you say, we're gonna be committed or exclusive with each other, right? Then there's a, you know, a marriage commitment and that type of relationship. What would be in your mind, the key things that an individual would should really focus on seeing or experiencing from the person that they want to date before they say, I want to get committed and exclusive with you, not before marriage, but just, okay, I feel comfortable enough to be an exclusive committed relationship what are those key things you would need to see or experience to make sure you feel comfortable taking that step?

Watch how they respond to stress or frustration. If you only had one thing you can do, it's that. Because that's the test, right? Do they start, do they become really dysregulated, impulsive, say really awful things and then, you know, I was just really stressed out, you know, because if they did it there, they're always going to do that because they're on their best behavior in this early dating relationship.

They'll do it worse in the future.

How are they handling themselves in a traffic jam? How do they handle themselves when you get to the restaurant and they say, oh, we've lost your reservation? You know, because you really are looking for the person who says, you know what? You up for a fast food? Because there's a place across the street. And you know what? It could be the dinner where you fall in love with that person over your, you know, over your cheeseburger. Exactly. And so, but if that person makes a, do you know who I am? Oh, let me tell you, Yelp review, blah, blah, blah. You're gonna be sorry, blah, blah, blah. No, I mean, and I think those situations manifest pretty early on. And the trick is because everything else is sort of new and sparkly and fun, people want to say, oh, they just had a bad day.

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I would say that's your, especially that early in the game, that's your first few months. A runaway kind of like, kind of, or not even runaway to say, just sort of slowly start distancing. Some people need to see two of those events. Okay, so great. There's your, you'll get your second soon enough. And so I would say that's a really, that's a big one. I think other things you want to look at are things like are around equity, equity and balance in the relationship. How often are you knocking yourself out for them? So in other words, you're shaping your schedule to them, you're shaping your preferences to them, you're giving up things for them, and yet they still make it sound like you, you give up maybe, I don't know, you're, you're invited to a, a, old friends birthday party, it's gonna be a girls night out, and they doubt your commitment. Like, oh, really it's your friends instead of me. And then you end up canceling on the friends and you go out with them and they'll say, isn't this so much more fun? So they make it seem like your sacrifice was actually good for you. That's something else you could say early in the game. Especially narcissistic people do tend to like to control the narrative. So, there will be some isolating happening. If you feel that you're not, you don't feel comfortable saying, I'm going to go see my friends, or, I want to spend time alone with my sister, or something like that, and they pathologize that, especially when it's early, this is sort of a process for you. And if they're trying to annex all of your time, that's a sign too, that you need to pay attention to.

If they're trying to take you from your friends and family.

But sometimes it's not even that obvious. It's more of a, why am I, why can't I come? Or they doubt your commitment. And so it's not as like, you're not seeing your friends. It's, you know, you spend a lot of time with your friends. Like, you know, maybe this just isn't the right time in your life for a relationship. I get that. I got that. So they play that game. And then you're thinking, oh, I'm kind.

Of really into this person. But I'm angry at you.

No, I guess like, I'm covert.

Yeah.

They doubt your commitment. And because people want to prove their commitment, right? And they know I'm really committed to this. Okay, you know, it just, I find it interesting that on a Saturday night, that's what you chose, even though you've told them weeks ago, and then you give in.

So look out for those two things. It's interesting because every time you say something like this, I'm reminded of the past of like, okay, all these stressful situations, but, with Martha. I talk a lot about Martha on the show because she's been amazing for me. But with Martha, we. We had an experience. We went on a trip within the first, like, month, right? Of kind of knowing each other and dating. And we were supposed to go to Vegas, and we had flights booked, but for whatever reason, all the flights that day, like, got canceled, and we couldn't get there for, like, the event. We're going to see an event until, like, the next morning on the flight, and we were gonna miss it.

Mm.

And so I'm coming to her kind of bring in some, a little bit of this PTSD.

Yeah, yeah.

Remnants of like, hope she's gonna be okay. You know, is she gonna be upset? This flights, this. And I bring in and say, hey, the flights are not, you know, happening. We could try to take a later flight, but we may not make it in time for the event. What do you want to do? Let's just drive.

Yeah, that. I was gonna say, if this girl's got it going on, she would always drive. Oh, it's no worries.

Let's just drive. I was so used to people being like, well, I need first class and I needed this. And this kind of like, don't you know who I am type of mentality. She was like, you want to drive? Kind of like fun with it. And I was like, you sure you're okay with that? And she was like, yeah, let's go. And I was like, cool, let's jump. We just grabbed our bags, we packed, we went in and we drew and it had the most incredible five hour drive. There was traffic and it was on a Friday night and it was like whatever, stressful. But we had so much fun. I was like, this girl's got something. She's got something going on. And I think when you travel with someone, you can see these stressful experiences.

Yes, I do agree that if you travel with someone, you can see a lot. And that's what I'm saying, that stress can come out there too. But I do think it's almost a way to create a living lab and set up a trip in the first three months of the relationship. It doesn't have to be elaborate. It could be something as quick as a weekend trip. It could be a weekend trip. It doesn't have to be like two weeks somewhere. Watch how they do. Because I will tell you, that's the test. Somebody who can be chill while they travel, done. That's one of, it's almost like a final exam.

Before you get committed. Before you exclusively commit.

And again, for people to know, this doesn't mean you have to have air tickets in this. It could really be like a road trip, it could be a camping trip, it could be any number of things, but like a few days where it's really just you and them and there's, because when you travel inevitably, something, right? And to watch how you manage that. It's a great test because if it's a narcissistic person, if everything isn't just so perfect and the thing is you've got to watch how they try to gaslight it away. If you start getting a little leery on, this is not okay, they're going to make it into, Don't you understand? I wanted to make it perfect for you, okay? I just wanted it to be a great trip, you know? And so, because if you might be pushing back, and saying, you know, the way you were acting under stressor, I just was trying to make it right for you. And now you're feeling so guilty because they were trying to make it right for you. So I will tell folks this. If you're noticing there's some of those early patterns and you decide to distance from this relationship because it feels like there's some red flags, don't tell them the why.

Really? Yeah.

This ain't your teacher, their life coach. You're trying to get out of this relationship. relationship because if you tell them the why, they're gonna gaslight you.

They're gonna say, well, I was stressed.

I was stressed. I was trying to do something nice for you. You're being unappreciative. You're unappreciative. Exactly. You're sensing a red flag. You can make it about yourself and say, yeah, you know, whatever your reasons are, I think work's getting to be a lot for me, or maybe this isn't the right time for me to have a relationship. And people say, well, Dr. Romany, isn't that a missed opportunity? No, they ain't listening to you. So, if you say to them, this is why it'll be Gaslight City and you're going to stay in it. Because I think people feel like, well, I need to tell them and maybe they'll improve. They're not going to improve. That's the radical excuse.

What about if someone feels just stuck in a relationship? Maybe there's narcissistic tendencies, maybe not, but they feel stuck in a relationship. what's a good conversation that someone should have with their partner to evaluate where it's at and how they can get unstuck? Whether there's narcissism or not. What's your opinions on that?

I mean, it's a different scenario, right? Because I think in a narcissistic relationship, you're working for survival, right? So you may not even, I have to tell you, people in narcissistic relationships may not initially feel stuck, they may be like, okay, it's like the MacGyver of relationship situations. Like, what kind of duct tape do.

I need to use?

Fixing everything, yeah. Fixing this thing, right? So you're doing, doing, doing. Where people feel stuck in a narcissistic relationship is when they get in too deep, share a place, kids, marriage. That's where the stuckness happens because I think by and large, and then honestly, there's one big interesting thing with narcissistic relationships, is the fear that the narcissists are going to change for the next person. Because there's a lot of stuff they like about that person. Like they're really attracted to them. They have great sex with them. They are charismatic. They have shared interests. People love them. They've got a really amazing career, job status, whatever, whatever it may be. There's a lot of magnetic qualities. And so that idea that the new person is going to get, you know, Mr. Magnetic is actually really overwhelming, but in a sense of stuckness, it's an interesting issue and it's something I've encountered even with couples I've done therapy with. And it's, you know, listen, there's the, you know, there's sort of the kind of the standard advice around like how do you start dating again in this relationship? How do you keep that piece of it alive? How do you keep giving it some level of priority status. How do you make sure you do communicate, make the time? Part of that is, I mean, mindfulness has such an important role in human relationships, not just intimate relationships, all relationships. Everybody's talking about mindfulness, mindfulness, mindfulness. It means paying attention to what's in front of you. And that means that it can be the littlest things about, oh my gosh, that's right. He had an appointment, he had a meeting at two. You text them at three like, Hey, how did that meeting go? I was just thinking of you. That stuff becomes the stuff of the relationship. And then saying, Hey, you had a tough one today. Let's cook this, go here, pop the champagne. It's that idea that someone's noticing you. So, mindfulness can be one piece of the stuckness. The other is, do you have shared vision? I mean, we talk about this in the workplace all the time. But is that there? Because it's, it does, and that doesn't even mean there's something wrong with someone if they don't have shared vision. But sometimes if you don't have that, that can contribute to the stuckness because you're not working towards a common goal, right? If you have a company and one person's like, I want to sell lots of hand lotion, and the other person's like, I really envision us as being a salsa company, you're gonna be stuck. Right, right, right.

Right?

Someone's chopping tomatoes, someone's like putting on all this lotion. So you're gonna be stuck. So it's the hand lotion of it all. One of you may be wanting to work towards family and children. The other one wants to travel the world. Both people are afraid to talk about it. And so how do you get unstuck? You actually go to the edge of the cliff and recognize that if you open up and they go, 'cause that's the fear, that fear of abandonment, that fear of being alone, that fear of loss, that if you can go to the edge of the cliff and say, this is actually what I want, and can tolerate that early in the game, especially if you don't have stuff like kids and commitments and all that, where you spoke in your truth and they can say, that's not what I want, and not personalize it. Because as kids, it's almost like the equivalent of bringing our picture to our parents and say, Look what I drew and the parent not caring. Or even worse, the parent saying, you,'re not my kid anymore because that's a bad job.

Oh my God, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so the idea that we could bring our truth to someone and they'd say, yeah, no, that's not what I want. It starts becoming the sunk cost fallacy, which kills most relationships. That's the idea of, I've already put all this resource into something. That's how people get stuck. is the sunk cost fallacy. And you've got to remember, behavioral economics often does have some of these answers. You've already put the money in, you've got a human experience, don't put more into this. And so then you have the conversation. And I've actually seen some people have beautiful ends to their relationship where they say, I, you know, I still have this, I'm not ready for X or Y, I don't want to do X or Y. That's not the direction I want to go in. And they managed to salvage friendships and genuine curiosity in each other. And then that, and then that's that. Yeah, but it's scary.

It takes a lot of courage for someone to end a relationship, no matter what type of, you know, and I.

Wouldn'T even say it's ended. I think it takes a lot of courage to speak your truth in a relationship. It's not even the ending. It's saying, what I want in this relationship is I want us to set. I want to have kids. I want to live. I want to move out of city. I want to put our focus there. And the other person might say, I don't want those things. And that's when you say, okay, then we're on very different paths. But it's so easy for me to sit here in a studio and intellectually say this. Let's say I'm a 39-year-old woman. That's not the what then? What then?

Yeah.

You know, now you're thinking, oh my God, I want a child. This is what's in front of me. I'm good. Then they start doing the math. I'm going to meet.

How many years?

Now I'm 42.

I want to find someone. Is there someone better than this? Yeah, all these things.

And it's not even like, or not even better as much as somebody who's more on my path. This is how it happens because we do forget that there is a sort of a biological piece to all of this. I mean, reproductive technology is changing that. And some women out there and I, women close to to me have said, you know what? I want the kid. I'm not so sure I want the relationship. And should I fall in love with someone? I don't want to fight with them for over custody. So women are having their own children without a partner and saying, I now motherhood's out of the game. It's actually easier to date. And now I'm going to meet a man either he wants a woman with a child or he doesn't. If he doesn't, he's not my guy. But I'll never have to fight this guy for custody of this kid. It's a new world and people who are making allowances for not wanting to stuck in toxic relationships are going different path. And I know men who have done that, too. Men who have gotten surrogates and said, I want to be a father. They. No, they look, they find a. They find this. I'm going to get donor eggs. Donor eggs. They get donor eggs. And they find surrogates. They find surrogates and they're like, I want to be a. Being a father to me was foremost. If I meet and fall in love with someone, super. But I want to be a father. It's not cheap though. So these are very privileged folks who can do this. But the fact is that there are paths forward in a way. And I think that the amount of damage, Louis, that people being raised in toxic relationships, having witnessed toxic relationships, may be one of the biggest psychological crises that most people bring into adulthood. So I think making sense of that is how we were raised.

Yes, and not breaking the cycle.

We have to be blueprint.

Very crappy. I have this, I don't know if I want to call it a formula, but just some steps that I've been developing through my own healing journey and reflection of previous relationships and now being in a very, I would call conscious healthy relationship. I would love for you to either pick apart or validate or add to or whatever you want to these kind of steps that I've been putting together myself that I think have helped me in this transition towards what to create when stepping into a new relationship. The first one is for a conscious, healthy relationship. The first one is you working on your healing journey before you get into it. Or if you're into it, start it while you start the relationship being in a healthy, focusing on a whole healthy body, mind, spirit and soul. Healing the past, and being on that journey. Step one. Without that, I feel like it's not a strong foundation, right? 'Cause you're gonna be more susceptible. Step two is, I don't know if this, for me, feel free to pick a hole at this. Step two would be to do the love language test with the person you're dating, and to see if you're in alignment with the way you receive and give love naturally. I think in previous relationships, for whatever reason, I chose women that didn't receive the love that I naturally gave, They liked acts of service and gifts. I was like, I don't care about giving someone a gift because it doesn't, it's not value for me. I like praising someone and touching someone. Words of affirmation. Yeah, and touching them and giving affection and telling them how much, you know, I appreciate them. Like, but they wanted a gift to feel loved because that was their blueprint. So I was always doing something that was more work for someone to feel loved. And in the current relationship, we have like, identical love language in order. So we both naturally show up who we are and feel loved by that person. So it's just less friction. I don't have to think, I need to buy a gift or I need to do this every week. Right. That I normally wouldn't want to do. So that's number two. Number three, four and five is getting clear with your honest truth about your values, your vision and your lifestyle.

Yeah.

Kind of like what you were saying. Like if you're If your values are out of alignment, it's going to be challenging. If your vision is, I want to make hot sauce and you want to make shoes, we have a different shared vision of our relationship. And if you want to live in the city and I want to live in the country with the lifestyle, there's going to be some friction there. Number six, for me, this was a non-negotiable entering this current relationship. Maybe this is too tough, but For me, I was like, we need to enter a relationship in therapy and start the relationship in therapy so that we can communicate in a conscious way with a third party about agreements. You know, there's going to be things that come up. There's no perfect relationship. You're going to have a different lifestyle, this and this. But can we create agreements together so there's alignment on our communication, our agreements, to just minimize some friction? not have expectations, but get clear on agreements and a standard we both have. And then with that, going through those first six things, choosing to fully accept the person for who they are, once you've gotten clear on all these things over a period of time, saying, okay, I'm not expecting you to change into a potential in the future, but do I accept who you are from your values, your vision, your lifestyle, your healing journey, we're doing therapy together. Can I accept this person? My girlfriend, she's an actress, so she does movies. She's on set. She's kissed guys on movies in the past, and maybe she will in the future. I had to be like, Do I accept this is who she is? Or am I gonna need to change her and say, you, can't do this anymore?

Correct.

So I said, I fully accept you. And this process has been very powerful for us. I'm sure from my personal experience, what's worked for me, Is there anything that you would poke a hole in or add or remove from these kind of seven things that I've been, you know, kind of playing with myself?

So it's almost like I'd make a step zero.

Okay, give it to me.

And a step zero is addressing legacy issues and your own traumas and all of that, right? Because the word healing is so ephemeral and it's so sort of non-specific. But when I think of hundreds, probably thousands of people whose narcissistic abuse in intimate relationship stories I've heard. It was a, they went into the relationship, and actually I take that back, because some folks enter this relationship confident as can be, it's not like they entered in deficit territory, but it was for a lot of people, for many people, their own backstory shaped what they thought they even deserved in a relationship. And I will tell you this in that part of that step zero is how do you reconcile yourself with societal messages? You had said something earlier that made me think about this too, which is this idea of the romance and how we view relationships early on. We're very programmed, whether we like to think that we are or we're not. We can, you know, everyone brings up the Disney movies, but it's beyond Disney movies. It's about what a love story is supposed to look like, what a, at least a heteronormative relationship is supposed to look like. You know, we have these, and this is where we get this idea of a gift, like, what do you, how many people say, you mean he didn't give you anything for Valentine's Day? And I've had to say that, and I'm in a relationship, I said, if he brought home something home for Valentine's Day, I would slap that man silly because, people go, what are you wasting your money for, fool? But the day after the candy's off 50%, so you're welcome to go to.

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-So it's- -'Cause your value was something different. -Right.

Yeah.

So and so it's that, but beyond that is that we get this message of what it's supposed to be and when it's not that, we think, well, there's got to be something wrong with me. And so I do think that it's a, it's, there's some, there's some pushing back on existing sort of societal messaging. There is being aware of one's own legacy issues. What are you trying to work through? One's own history of trauma and those kinds of adverse experiences from early in life. To me, those are sort of like the step zero before the step one.

So being aware of those things, talking to your partner about them or just.

I know, I think that's the word. Step zero is almost like before you ever Any partner.

And part of me is thinking, you know, the healing journey is being aware of those things, addressing them, you know, reflecting on them, and then starting to integrate it, some type of therapeutic healing process.

And then I think that the other thing I'd say is the, going back to that societal message is the abyss of it all. I think a lot of people would hear a list like that and be like, homie, you're high. Like, if I do this, I am going to be alone for the rest of my damn life.

But I was willing to do that. You were. Because I had felt so much suffering inside from the pain. I was like, I'd rather be alone with a cat and dog.

Correct.

Be peaceful.

Right.

Than be in a relationship where I have to, you know, give up who I am every day and walk on eggshells.

But that means that people have to understand that giving up who I am means that they value the who I am, that that's actually something to give up. And I think that what, what I'll. I wish this happened in school. I wish that a significant part of the curriculum was on Who am I? What am I about? What do I stand for? What matters to me? What are my values? I got a text from my daughter two days ago. She's in college right now, still trying to figure out her major. And she texts me and she's like, Mom, I've decided I'm gonna pursue a career in the arts. And I text back, that is absolutely magnificent. And she texts me back, said, no mother ever. Do you realize that I'm probably never gonna have a lot of money? I said, Girl, I've been broke since I was 50. So I said, and I wasn't happy. So I said, if you wake up every day excited about what you do, you're good. And so what my daughter was doing was she was unfurling herself in front of me. Now inside, am I thinking like, you know, rice and beans and- She might have a tough life in the apartment. Okay, yeah, you could do that. You could do that. That's all. But you know what? If you're doing what you love, that rice and beans in that studio apartment.

Is gonna be A-OK.

It's gonna feel like a filet mignon, you know? I love. You know, that this is not like, how dare you take this expensive education to say, you are loved and I want you to be you and I want you to find your path. You know, that's definitely not how I was parented, you know, and that's not how a lot of people were raised. You're loved if you do what we.

Tell you to do.

You're loved if the word doctor is in front of your name. They're like, I don't care what damn way you get to that.

You're gonna be a doctor. Here's the funny thing. You, the doctor is in front of your name. Do you feel loved or did you feel loved after do you got that accomplishment?

No, and I think I became the wrong kind of doctor. I think they had the whole MD thing in mind. But you know, I also understood where they came from. As immigrants in the generation that came, they really did believe. They said, no one in this country is going to take you seriously, you know, when they look at your face. So they said, at least with the doctor, you're going to get a little respect when they say your name. So I'm like, okay, I could work with that. But the fact is, I did think like, oh, they're going to love me more if I do this. No, they had their own story. But I think that and then I'm bringing in my daughter is like, she's trying to figure out who she is. Who are you? What do you stand for? And that idea, what are your personal values? Like, I do leadership training with folks and they actually take a values deck of cards and you realize like, whereas you're, if you and I did that exercise, we should do that one. We should have that episode. I should bring in my values. Bring them in. Let's do that. Okay. For sure. I'm gonna bring them in and we're both gonna do it. And then I think you put your top 15 and you take a look at them, right? And so ours are gonna be completely different. And yet, I adore you, you're a friend of mine, all of that, but we'll have very, and you know what? I'm gonna get your own deck, take it home, do it with Martha.

Well, it's funny you say that because before we got committed, and maybe you think I'm high because these things were important for me. Because I was like, I'd rather scare her away. from being intentional about my communication and my values and my vision and who I am or what I want to create in this world, then attract someone on a false foundation.

So I want to push back on your language there. I want to scare her away. How interesting that you still feel-- I.

Don'T scare her away, but make sure that we're the right match.

Right, but language matters. I'm gonna scare her away. The real Lewis is scary is sort of that, and that-- Right, right, right, right. You know, there's a certain ingrained assumption that if I'm me, that is going to scare her rather than simply, I'm going to show her the real me. True. And let's see if that's a fit. So I hear some unconscious bias within you towards me.

I like that. I like that. I'll start correcting myself. That's good. So I wanted to share her with the real me and be honest about all these things that I wanted to create in my life unapologetically. Let's say that. I'm going to be unapologetic about what I wanted to create. And so before we got together, you know, got into a committed exclusive, you know, dating experience, we had, we'd had an amazing few months already, like so many trips and things, and it was just, like, peaceful. Right. And so I took her to Sedona, and I took her up a. A Vortex, right? Like this kind of little mountain Vortex in Sedona. and I had a workbook for us, a journal. I gave it to her, I put some music on and I said, Listen, I want to do a values exercise with you.

Good for you.

So it's kind of like the value deck, but I said, I want you, I put some music on, some gentle music, we're up, the sun is setting, we're on this energy vortex. I said, I want you to be so honest and authentic with what your core values are. And this is many things that are part of your values in your life. you know, and I take five, 10 minutes, right? I'm not going to look at it. I'm not going to, you know, you do your thing. I do that, she writes it. Then I said, Give me a blank piece of paper, and I take it and I do the same exercise. And I said, Now I want us to look at them side by side without a bias, without me seeing it first and then me writing down the same things, because I want you to think I have the same values. Are we in alignment? Is there alignment? Not perfection, is there alignment?

Sure.

And 80% of the things we wrote down were the same.

Right.

And the 20% that was different, it was like, okay, cool. That's nothing against that here and nothing against here. And it felt just more organic, right? It felt because we were honest about it.

Right.

I don't think there were many relations in the past where I talked about values and vision and lifestyle until it was too late.

Correct.

When we were breaking down and it's like this frustration and we're like, what are we doing? Right. But we've already chemically bonded and we've already like gotten deeper into a commitment. And you're like, well, we just lacked the, I guess, emotional courage or intelligence.

To have those conversations early. And I just don't think a lot of people live their lives from that examine standpoint. Like, what are my values? What do I stand for? You be like, what do you mean, what do I stand for? I can't afford gas, you know? And so that, and I understand that, right? I'm surviving. You to surviving, but there are certain things you that you're willing to fight really, really fight for and be and that you actually do need in your life. For some people, for example, spirituality may really matter. You cannot minimize that. And if a person for whom spirituality matters enters into a relationship for someone who doesn't, it's not an indictment of either of them, but that may not be a language they can use with each other, which might leave both of them frustrated. But there's, then there's some things that you're not going fully map on to someone else. Someone may say, I'm very comfortable with your spiritual world. I'm simply not going to participate in it. And then that will work. And they'll say, I can see how joyful it makes you. But what the struggle here though, the main sort of pushback I'm going to have on your list. Give it to me.

Is your list is predicated on two healthy people. That's why step one is both need to be healing. Yeah. And so- and both need to be in a therapeutic journey together. That's why for me, if one person is working on their healing journey and doing some type of therapy consistently with accountability and emotional intelligence and integrating that process, and the other is not, I feel like it's going to be challenging. I think it's going to be impossible. That's why I said enter the relationship in therapy, which again, this is maybe.

Hard for people to do. I think it's great to enter a relationship in therapy. It's just not a typical third date activity. Hey, instead of going out for drinks.

You want to therapy. This is after a few months.

You know, this is after a few months. But still, I do think that there's some, there's some, there's a business for me to open, like third date therapy.

But here's the thing. What's the alternative? Getting in a relationship where 50%, you know, get, go through divorce within however many years and then, and then those that stay together more unhappy and then you're suffering and you're feeling trapped and you feel stuck. And it seems like very few in their first marriage make, you know, create a peaceful, thriving life with, you know, challenges and bumps along the way, but it just seems like it's rare. And so if you want that, if you want a healthy, thriving, long-term committed relationship, not perfect, but a healthy one, I mean, I feel like it's rare. You got to do the ex, the extreme or the different things that people have never done. I don't know.

Right. But you also have to Value yourself and that's the work, right? Is for a person to be able to say, I am valuable. And if a person can get there, all relationships in some ways have a fighting chance, not toxic ones, but because they do value themselves. So they're willing to set a boundary. They're willing to extract from unhealthy situations. They're mindful and aware of what another person, you know, they're self-aware they're able to, and also aware of another person and can make judgments and statements and all of that about the, you know, in an informed, aware manner. And then above all else, they have empathy, right? And either you got it or you don't. And in the absence of empathy, your whole system goes away, right? Without that, this passion and empathy.

Yeah.

And I think that there's, you know, I think that a lot of people right now in the world are engaging in pseudo healing. and I think it's just narcissistic navel gazing and they're actually not really healing.

What does that mean?

I think is that they're doing whatever they're doing. Like, I meditate 75 times a day and I do mindfulness this and I ayahuasca that and blah, blah, blah, blah. And they do all of that, but they're still really going through the world in a rather monstrous, entitled, dismissive, contemptuous way. But it's sort of like, you know, what I call healing porn or recovery porn. look at my recovery. I'm so recovery-ish. It's like a spiritual bypass. Exactly. It's a spiritual bypass. And that gives me pause. So you can't even just say, oh, they're doing all this work on themselves.

I don't care how much work you're doing on themselves. How are they showing up? How are you showing up? What's your thoughts on plant medicine as.

A professional, you know, in terms of a therapy? In terms of helping people heal. Right. I'm always, I tread so lightly here because as a licensed person, I always have to recognize that my my feedback will always carry weight. I am not an MD, so I can't prescribe medication. I do believe this though. What's happening in plant medicine, what's happening in the psychedelic world is the future of psychiatry. I do. I think that there's things happening there. The early clinical trials on MDMA and PTSD, we're seeing some really extraordinary things starting to happen. And I'm enough of a cynic and I don't know, maybe I look like I have a tinfoil hat on right now, but I do believe Big Pharma doesn't want this to happen because I think that there may be a lot of answers lurking there. But folks, this is not about you going home and going to a rave and doing some MDMA and saying, oh, I'm treating myself with PTSD. No, no, no, no, no, no. The treatment protocols for this have to be done with licensed people in controlled settings, therapy is happening while the person is using the psychedelic. This is under the most, it has to be done under the most clear formatted protocol. So this isn't just like party drug time and look at me, I'm treating myself. This is not self-medication. It's none of that. This is highly controlled. The dosages are controlled. But I do think there's a tremendous future there. I would be arrogant for me to say otherwise. And when I've talked with folks doing this kind of work, it's impressive what they're showing. I'd like to see more data. I, you know, I'm not, when it comes to what I do from a practice perspective, for example, I can't say to someone, you need to be on Zoloft. I have to say, I'm going to give you a referral to a psychiatrist. You will work with that psychiatrist and they will make whatever medication recommendation they have for you. But I can't, the way my license works, make clear recommendations. So if a client of mine says, I want to explore this. I'll say, if you do, we just simply need to make sure you're doing it with a licensed, you know, so somebody who's doing this in a very legitimized, thoughtful kind of a way.

Yeah, I have a. I feel like I. I feel like I have an open mind to a lot of things, but for whatever reason, I. It's gonna be intentional with my words here. I've met a lot of people. I have a lot of friends who've done a lots of different, you know, Ayahuasca and plant medicine Journeys and experiences and. treats and all these things that swear by it, right? And people I respect, people that I love and I appreciate and nothing wrong with it. But years down the road, I don't see it having like the healing effect that I'm like, okay, well you keep going to doing it. But where is the progress? There's like a week or two of the euphoria. But then you're still struggling in your rela- you're still being a big bad per- you're still, you know, and it's not for everyone that does this that I know, but I've just experienced that where people swear by it as this euphoria experience, but then six months later they're suffering again.

Right, it's the if there's the bypass though, right? Because the work and I've worked with narcissistic clients, Louis. It's not like I'm only on the survivor side. I've worked with many in my time. And let me tell you, I mean, that's, I feel Foreman in the ring and mercifully I'm actually really good. And you know, actually more like Ali, 'cause I can get him against the.

Ropes and exhaust him. You probably created the energy field so.

You'Re not like, yeah. Or I can take the, actually no. Foreman gets him against the ropes, Ali can take the punches. I can take the punches. And so it's a, but what I would see is I would say, 'cause here's the thing, what would be really interesting being in the room with a narcissistic client who actually saw through the therapy. They didn't drop out. One of the interesting things for me, I was fortunate because I had no spots in my practice and I've completely downsized it and mostly have ended most of it. But back in the day I'd say, you don't show up, you lose your slot and you're not in this practice. And I'm like, well, I don't want to lose my slot, right? They don't like that. So they'd show up. But the fact is, is that when they'd show up, they would sometimes say, I would say, gosh, that thing you just told me you said to your wife, how did she feel? and how do you feel? And how do you feel? No, no, they'd be like, I didn't really think about it. I'm like, let's think about it, shall we? And that's something called mentalization. When you have someone reflect on what they think, how they think someone feels, how they think their behavior is affecting someone, like put your head self in that headspace. So I said, how do you think your wife felt when you did X or Y? Oh yeah, I guess that wasn't cool. Okay. So what, what might you want someone to do for you in that circumstance, right? And get him to do it.

That's good.

And they would sometimes say, like, yeah, you're right, that wasn't. So they weren't, like, punching me in the face. They were just kind of like, okay, that wasn't cool. Would they keep making the same mistakes? Yes. Me repeatedly saying, what do you think she felt? Or sometimes I'd even say, like, that's not cool. You know, that was that. And I would often say, how would you feel if your wife saw the text that you sent? I Divorce. Really? And so they, and I said, do you see you have a double standard? Here's my point though, Louis, and one of the most, you know, and this is gonna be sort of a comp, what do you call it? A composite of multiple people, you know, from a confidentiality perspective. But I do remember working with a series of people to the end of their relationships, and a couple of them said, more than a few said, you,'re telling me to make my marriage work, I gotta listen to her talk about her emotional stuff. You know, she's getting old. I don't even like to look at her that much anymore. You're telling me that I can't like, all right, so I'm having, I'm just having sex with this other person, but you're telling me it hurts her. And they're like, I mean, I'll be like, okay, so you're telling me I've got to listen to her and I have to care about her feelings and, and then, and you're also telling me I have to do this with this other woman I'm having sex with who thinks I'm gonna have a relationship with her, please. oh, my gosh. Like that. Okay. So you know what? I remember one of my more successful, you know, some of the more successful cases, they come back and say, I divorced the wife and I dumped the mistress. Like, if this is, if I don't want to be causing this much harm, they weren't sadistic, you know, but, and after the therapy, they're like, okay, if that, if this is never going to change, I don't, I, I, it's very clear. I want to do what I want to do. And I thought that was a win. They're like, I'm not changing. They were even aware they weren't going to change.

Like, I'm not listening to her.

And I don't like looking at her and I don't think she's attractive anymore. It's like yikes.

But it's a win for her and.

It'S a win for the other people who have been released. Now- that's big. Most folks, most narcissistic folks or people with these personalities don't stay in therapy. They're not great candidates for therapy and my guess is to your point about these people who all slide backwards, there ain't enough ayahuasca in the world to turn these people around. I can tell you that right now, there's not enough MDMA, There's nothing. I think everyone's looking for the empathy pill, right? That's what there's that it's not how it works. You know, there's just no such thing.

There needs to be a, you know, this could be something that unlocks you and allows you to start processing and bringing up, you know, potential wounds that you could start to heal.

To do that work.

But you've got to be willing to do some other therapies that are not, you know, external focused around like a medical drug or something to fix you. You've got to do the inner work. to continue that journey.

Right, exactly. And that's what I'm saying, that any of the protocols that are showing any efficacy around things like PTSD and everything have to be done in a managed circumstance. And to your point, I remember once meeting a guy swearing by whatever psychedelic that's swearing about. This is it. Can I curse on here? Because I'm gonna tell you right now, this guy was the biggest a-hole I have ever met. I mean, he was just a jerk. Just a jerk and cold and abrupt. But yet he had the audacity to say, I am so empathic now. I'm like, ooh, you know, like, okay, that's not how it's usually done. And I had no skin in this game. I was just sort of watching this conversation happen. He was talking to a group of people, but he was just a jerk for the full two days I had to spend in his presence and yet was extolling how much growth he had had. And so I don't know what that meant to him. And maybe people in his life thought there was progress. Remember, I mean, if you're starting from negative 10, even getting up to zero is growth. So there is that too. But it's really tough because I do think there was an interesting article in the New York Times, actually. I think it was today or yesterday about this idea of like, does being in therapy make me a good person? You know, and is that what the point of therapy is, to make someone a good person? What really is a good person? So it really raises a lot of philosophical issues.

What is that? Interesting.

And it's subjective to a point, but I don't think it is. I think one thing we do know when we look at personality, in general, I do think we do believe that compassion and respect make for a good person, but we also live in a world where people like that are viewed as suckers. Right. You have to have discernment around things.

And not just buy into whatever one's saying. But it's not even that.

If you're just, especially men, this is, and I really feel for men having to endure this. If you're compassionate, sweet, and respectful, often it's not, those are not masculine qualities. Weak men take advantage of that. Versus the guy who is like a corporate raider who has a ton of money, who drives the fast car, R is somehow viewed as strong. I mean, this is, and then right now that that's right there, the paradox of what masculinity is in our modern age. Until we can make compassion sexy, we're in trouble.

What do you wish every man could learn to develop more of? Empathy.

Being vulnerable with emotion, to share vulnerability, to share sadness. The number of men, for example, who've been sexually abused, we don't talk about it. One, six. I mean, yeah, exactly. And for women, there's actually, at least in therapy, I'm talking about the safe space. But I'm telling you, for clients I've worked with, with male clients, I remember some of them saying, I don't want to, I have somebody to talk to, can we do this session by phone? I don't want to look at your face. So shameful. You know, so shameful. And I think that, and when I taught abnormal psychology at the university level, and I was teaching about adverse childhood experiences like child abuse, child sexual abuse. What I did notice was that some of the male students were really shifting uncomfortably in their seats. And I would slow down. I'm like, listen, if you know, and take this topic slow. It felt like the women in the class were actually had processed that a little bit more on the macro, like overall than the male students in the class. So I think that to hold space, to be able to feel safe with talking about their insecurities, their vulnerabilities, their feelings to show tears. I mean, there is nothing more beautiful when a person's able to cry because they're feeling a genuine emotion. And I think of how we pathologize men for doing that. We do, we literally pathologize. It'll be the cold open on Saturday Night Live. They'll make jokes about it. There'll be memes about it. It horrifies me. So why would a man ever be vulnerable if he thinks he's going to be turned into a man?

It's interesting you say this. And I wrote a book five years ago called the Mask of Masculinity, which is about my journey of letting go of anger, frustration, resentment, and stepping more into vulnerability. The healing journey and allowing myself to be vulnerable, talking about sexual abuse for the first time in 25 years since it happened, and just unpacking what it means to be a man. how to take off these masks. And in the process of doing this, I would go to events and talk about the book, right? And there would probably be 50-50 men and women who would be in the room. And I would ask at some point in the event, I'd say, all the women in the room, raise your hand. If you, once a week, talk to your girlfriends or you have a place where you can go and talk about your challenges or insecurities or fears and things like this of life. your body shaming issues, whatever it might be, you can talk to someone about it and pretty much every woman in the room would raise their hand. I said, Keep your hands up if you do this every day with your girlfriends, your mom, your sister, and pretty much all of them kind of laugh and say, yeah, I call people every day. And I said, okay, the guys in the room, raise your hand. If you do this once a month, you talk with your guy friends and you feel safe to be vulnerable and open up about your insecurities and all these different things as well. Maybe two hands out of hundreds once a month would raise their hand. And let's say, are you guys part of a church group that does this kind of like mandatory, like structural thing where you feel safe in this place and they all kind of laugh like, yes. And I go, how many of you do this once a year? No hands. And so I go, ladies, imagine going once a month, not even going once a month, not even going once a year. Imagine going a lifetime. without ever being vulnerable and opening up because you feel like you're gonna be shamed. Just think about the weight. I'm not saying how men act and treat you and this and this is okay or actions are okay, but just think about that.

Yeah, it's true.

And I talked to different men throughout this period who said, Louis, I started the opening up with my wife and after years that she would always say, I wish you were more vulnerable. I wish you would show emotion more, not just be stoic or angry. And some men would say, listen, I started to do this, and I got the worst response from my wife, my partner.

Interesting.

Because they weren't available to receive me being, they're so used to me being stoic in this, having it all together that when I was emotional, they needed me to be strong for their emotional challenges. Some of these men, I'm not saying all these women, so how do we get women to be to accept of men starting to shift and be to show emotion, to cry, to say, hey, I'm struggling. I'm really going with some issues right now. And I've got some stuff I got to deal with. How do we get women also to be like, hey, it's encouraging. It's okay. And keep a safe space so that men will continue to and not be like, well, I'm never doing that again. She made fun of me. Why would I ever do this? I'm gonna be strong and tough again.

And that's something that, you know, everyone has to work on is how to say, what are our biases about masculinity? Does it, how do we, will that change how you view a partner? Would that, you know, I mean, again, you and I, I was watching you talk about something recently where someone was talking about masculine and feminine energy and all that. I'm not so sure I agree with that dichotomy, to be honest with you. But I do think that it is a, you know, the shaming of emotion and anger being the only acceptable emotion. So men use that. They turned it into like the Swiss Army knife of emotion. I'm sad, I'm gonna be angry. I'm vulnerable, I'm gonna be angry. Angry, angry, angry. Right? It's just like the one stop shop kind of thing. And to me, anger is an incredibly acceptable, healthy emotion. It's in the whole, but it's meant to be a whole drawer full of stuff, not just one emotion you use for everything. And that's the challenge is that men do have emotion. Anger. and that it's sort of switching that up, societally not pathologizing that and women holding space for that. But I think the other piece for men is I want them to have more deep friendships. Again, something else I read, a great article I read about a guy who wrote this idea of how many men out there have colonoscopy friends? And that headline grabbed me, so I kept reading. You know what his point was? I think he had a girlfriend or wife or something, and he said, if If she wasn't in my life, there's nobody to drive me home from a colonoscopy, because you can't drive yourself home and you can't take an Uber home. So a person has to come and get you at the colonoscopy. That's vulnerable. It's very vulnerable. Most men don't have a, and this is like men over the age of 40, which is when you'd be getting a colonoscopy, that men often don't have friendships. They have like, let's go play golf, let's go watch a game, let's meet at a bar. person where women have been, are really good at that. And in fact, it's why women often fare better later in life after a spouse dies. Whereas a guy, it's sort of like they'll often decline rather quickly. Some women, not because they flourish, but some women actually do flourish, but they often have a stronger support network because women are often doing that cultivating of social relationships. And so because that's part, that's just something that's more validated for them. And so, and I love that, that analogy of the colonoscopy, friend, like the person you call, can you pick me up from this? And that, I'm gonna go to work. You know, of course, I'm thinking of, like, the friends I have, like, you, give me enough notice, of course I'm gonna come get you. And there's dozens of women I would do that for. And so, when I even ran that by my partner, he got really sad. He's like, I don't think I have any colonoscopies could be friends. Yeah. And he's like, I gotta work on that. And so, yeah. Mm-. Yep.

Dr. Ramani, I appreciate you. I want people to get more of your work. Navigating narcissism.

Yeah, you got to tune in.

Podcast, powerful. Season one is almost complete. Season two is going to be coming out early next year, but they can go through 30 episodes of the podcast. If you want more, go there, subscribe, Everywhere Podcast that you listen to. Also, your YouTube is an amazing resource. They can go check that out as well. Thanks. They can subscribe there. You've got an online program for people healing from narcissistic relationships and abuse. If they go to your website, dr-romani.com, they can learn more about that. They can sign up and get that as well. You've got great content on social media. How else can we be of service to you today?

I would say that, you know, for people who want to do the deeper dive into healing, I have that monthly healing program. I know some people say, I don't know. I don't know if I'm getting this in therapy. I may not have the money. It's very affordable. And I'd say to people, try it for a month. If you don't like it, it's really not that much lost. And some people say, okay, this is working. Or you see there's a community of other people who've been through this. So definitely encourage people to check out my healing platform. They can go to my website and find that. And for people who want to hear lived experience, the podcast is great for that too, because On YouTube, I teach people about stuff. On Navigating Narcissism, I talk to people who've been through, and all kinds of things. They've survived cults, they've survived abusive relationships, they've survived spiritual abuse. I mean, pick a form of abuse, we have talked about it. And so it's a real interesting opportunity to hear that conversation happen in real time and the insights people get when it's framed in that way. And like I said, YouTube is like a big old library where if I haven't talked about it, then drop me a line and if it makes sense, and I'll make a video about it. And that's where a lot of our content ideas come from. People saying, Could you talk about this or that? And so I do that. And then I'd say, you know what? Get out there and be empathic, be compassionate, and practice what I call recognition. My recognition is that see other people, feel them, you know, Experience them, hold space for them, because that moment of recognition, for some people, this might be the very first time they've gotten it in years, and it can be a real eye-opener. That every time we meet someone, there's something really extraordinary about them, recognize it.

Powerful stuff. I asked you a couple of questions last time, but I want people to go to our previous episode to see your three truths and your definition of greatness. They probably have changed. Next time I'll ask you those again. But I want to acknowledge you first before I ask you the final question. I want to acknowledge you for what you just said about five minutes ago about how I think it was a week or two ago in your own therapy, you realized you're still having awakenings and growth and creating more wholeness in yourself, which is really cool to see that you're teaching the work, but you're doing the work.

Oh, you have to do the work. It would be disrespectful to everyone I work with if I didn't do the work myself.

Well, I appreciate it and acknowledge you for for how you show up in so many ways. You know, in private conversations with people, the way you coach people, the way you're teaching in all the different platforms. So it's amazing. We need your voice. Very grateful for you and appreciate you for learning and using your wisdom from experience on how to teach this stuff.

I appreciate that.

You're welcome. And my final question, I want people to go check the three truths in the previous episode. We'll link it up. But my final question is, if you could go back to your younger self before the first narcissistic experience that you witnessed yourself, you know, you probably weren't even aware of it, obviously. But if you could go back in before that, and she was standing in front of you, whatever age that was, what are three things that you would say to her to support her in the journey she's about to experience or to help kind of like minimize some of the things that she was about to experience. If you could go back with the wisdom you have, what would you say to her?

I would say to her, keep getting lost in the daydreams because they are going to happen. and don't be afraid to change course. And especially that last one is don't be afraid to change course. I'm somebody who went a very traditional educational route. You know, four years of undergrads, five years of grad school, one year of the training in, like, residency kind of thing, two years of postdoc. And there was a time in there that I thought to change course, and I didn't. and then I became an academic and tenure and blah blah blah blah blah. And when I was golly, I really didn't change course. I was 55 years old and it worked out just fine. I landed on my feet and. But there was a lot of work that had to lead up to that. There was times I was working three and four jobs. But I would say, don't be afraid to change course. I don't know what would have been different if I had changed course when I was earlier in education. I knew probably there was a different path for me. There's a lot of dreams I haven't, I don't know that I might ever get a chance to do. I've always wanted to live in another country and things like that. I don't know if those will ever happen for me had I changed course, those would have. So I'd tell her, change course. Like it's okay if in the second year of grad school you would just listen. We end up where we end up. So it's, I think that the path is the path. But I, yeah, those are those are that, but I'd say it's going to be okay. And when I look at pictures of myself at that age, I'm thinking of my life exceeds anything that she would have allowed herself to think. That's beautiful. Dr. Ramin, thank you so much.

Appreciate it. Thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full Rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. Explore the world's hidden wonders on the Atlas Obscura podcast, a village in India where everyone's name is a song. A boiling river in the Amazon. A spacecraft cemetery in the middle of the ocean. Every day, the Atlas Obscura podcast will blow your mind in 15 minutes. You can find it on the SiriusXM app, Pandora, or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.