How To Heal Your Past, Build Strong Relationships & Deepen Your Faith w/Sarah Jakes Roberts EP 1105

This is episode number 1105 with New York Times bestselling author, Sarah Jakes Roberts.

Welcome to the School of Greatness.

My name is Lewis Howes, a former.

Pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur.

And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Maya Angelou said, you may not control all the events that happen to you, but you can decide not to be reduced by them. And Beyonce said, power is not given to you. You have to take it. My guest today is Sarah Jakes Roberts, someone that I'm extremely inspired by after this interview and conversation and really just love what she's up to, her mission and her life at this stage. It's incredible to see what she's doing. At 23 years old, she was battling insecurities, teen pregnancy, stigma, toxic relationships and depression. And she realized she had only two options, settle or evolve. And alongside her husband, she is now the co-pastor of the Potter's house at 1la and the Potter's house, Denver. And her messages spread throughout the world are defying cultural religious, gender, socioeconomic boundaries. Sarah has a unique way of reaching people who are seeking to make peace with their past, maximizing their present and deepening their faith. And she's got a new book that is a New York Times bestseller called Woman Evolve: Break Up With youh Fears and Revolutionize youe Life. In this episode, we dive deep and it gets real, real quick. She talks about how to develop self-confidence even when you feel like the world is against you, how to heal your past and be kinder to yourself today, how to manage not living up to others expectations. Ooh, I know this is a big one for a lot of people. The three most important qualities of a strong intimate relationship and how Sarah was able to create financial freedom for herself when she was struggling for a long time in that department. If you're inspired by this, make sure to text a few friends and ask them to share what their favorite part of this episode was with you. I'd love for you to start a conversation with someone you care about in your life to be inspired by Sarah as well. You can copy and paste the link wherever you're listening to this podcast or use lewishouse.com/sarah slash 1105 and text a few friends, post it over on social media. Make sure to tag me and Sarah as well to let her know that you're listening to this. Okay, in just a moment, the one and only Sarah Jakes Roberts. If you are a business owner trying to hire, you're probably running into some obstacles as you try to find the right fit for your team. And I've been there as well as we work to grow our team. You might be coming across challenges like needing to hire ASAP, yet having tons of resumes to sort through, or the reverse, not having enough applicants with the right qualifications because recruiting is tricky and hiring can feel like trying to find a needle in the haystack, which is why you should try ZipRecruiter for free at ziprecruiter.com/greatness. And here's how it works. When you post a job on ZipRecruiter, it gets sent out to over 100 top job sites with one click. Then ZipRecruiter's matching technology finds people with the right skills and experience for your job, and then it actively invites them to apply. And get this, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. It's insane. No wonder over 2.3 million businesses have come to ZipRecruiter for their hiring needs. So while other companies overwhelm you with way too many options, ZipRecruiter finds what you're looking for, the needle in the haystack. And right now you can try ZipRecruiter for free at this web address, ziprecruiter.com/greatness. Once again, remember to go to this unique place, ziprecruiter.com/G-R-E-A-T-N-E-S-S. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire.

There.

Is a new service called Capsule and it has changed the game for so many people because it sends your prescriptions delivered right to your door. And I mean, we pretty much get everything else delivered to us these days. So why have we still been going to the pharmacy to pick up our prescriptions? Well, Capsule is a new kind of pharmacy that will hand deliver your prescription the same day for free. And here's how Capsule works. It's super easy to start. Visit capsule.com, it only takes 15 seconds to sign up when your prescription is ready. Capsule will text you to schedule free delivery at a time you choose. Then a Capsule courier hand delivers your medication to your door straight from their pharmacy in a tamper-proof package. It's totally secure and if you have any questions you can call, text or email with an expert pharmacist. It's that simple. No more waiting in line, no more driving to the pharmacy, no more forgetting refills. Best of all, Capsule doesn't cost any more than your old pharmacy. Capsule accepts all major insurance and is currently available in New York City and the surrounding tri-state area. Austin, Boston, Boston, Chicago, the Twin Cities and LA and other cities are coming soon. To sign up, visit capsule.com to get your prescription hand delivered today for free. That's capsule.com Welcome back everyone to the.

School of Greatness podcast. Very excited about our guest, Sarah Jakes Roberts in the house.

Hey.

Good to see you. Good to see you too. Very excited. You've got an incredible energy. Right when we just met recently, you've got a credible glow about you and energy and I just feel like there's a truth inside of you. But I know that you didn't always have that truth. And I know you went through some challenges earlier in your teens. And I'm curious, what is the biggest insecurity you've had to overcome, especially being raised in the church and with a father who's a preacher, a big personality? What's the biggest insecurity you've had to overcome growing up? with all that.

No, I love that. I think the biggest insecurity is also the thing that has become my greatest strength. But it's ultimately that I didn't fit where I thought I was supposed to fit. Growing up with TD Jakes as my dad, you know, I didn't always feel like I fit in church. Like, you know, not too long ago, I did a DMX tribute episode on my podcast, so that gives you an idea of the type of gospel music I preferred. So I didn't feel like I really fit in church, but obviously I'm not a thug. fully, you know, in my heart, I am one a little bit. But so I really didn't feel like there was a space for me anywhere. And so, you know, now you fast forward and I felt that way actually is why I kind of created a space for different women who were like me.

You just feel like you didn't belong in the space that there was.

Yeah.

And so then you said, I'm going to create a space and then people came into it. Yeah. What is that space called?

Women Evolve is what I branded it, but, you know, I feel like it's a safe space where women can bring all of themselves and see what they need to eliminate and what they need to multiply so that they can become the best version of themselves.

What is the biggest challenge that women face with today that you see?

Self-worth. self-worth I think even women who you would think have succeeded so much that they should find value in where they are in life still struggle to receive the life that they live. And certainly women who've had challenges like I have, I wonder if there is any way that they can have worth with the broken pieces they have left.

When did you feel the most broken?

Ah, okay. Do you want the full story?

Full story, yeah.

Okay. So I was married before and when I was, I I was 19 when I got married and 23 when I got divorced. So at a point in that marriage, there was some infidelity and. Okay, so here we go. This is the school.

On which side?

On his side.

Okay.

Okay. On his side, there was infidelity.

Oh, she's. She's getting real.

I'm not telling you the whole story now. So there was infidelity on his side, and there was this moment where something happened. I won't go into the full details, but they called the police on me because your girl lost it. Okay.

A little lost in terms of the screaming, fighting, punching.

I did take my car and ram another car repeatedly. Here we go. The School of Greatness.

Wow. How old are you?

22. Wow.

Okay.

Right. Last and forward, reverse, forward again. Wow. Reverse over and over again. They called the police on me because I wasn't stopping. Wow. Problem is I have two children. Okay, so they weren't in the car. They were-- it was like 11 o'clock at night. This was in our driveway because the girl was at our house. And here we go. You weren't even ready for it, but yet here we are. And so they called the police on me, and the officer asked me, like, what happened? And I was like, well, you know, my husband brought his girlfriend to our house. And I didn't know how to process that. Yeah. And, you know, it's funny in retrospect, but I was in the DMV. I didn't have any family. I felt so vulnerable. I didn't have where I could just pick up and take my kids somewhere. And I felt this violation. I had to go see CPS after this. The officer didn't arrest me. CPS is? Child Protective Services. And so I was leaving Child Protective Services where they're basically asking about my routines with the kids and, you know, what I enjoy about them. They're interviewing me to determine whether or not I'm a good mother. Oh, wow.

Okay, now- Like that night or like weeks later?

Weeks later, I had to schedule it or I would have had to go to court. Now, you're talking about someone who got pregnant at 13, now interviewed, being interviewed almost 10 years later about whether or not she's a good mother. This is my biggest fear right in front of my face. Am I going to be a good mother? And I'm talking to this CPS officer, you know, representative, I don't know what you call them. And I was leaving the CPS office and they're like, okay, we'll be in touch and follow up if necessary. They didn't end up following up, but when I walked out of that office, that's when I felt the most broken I'd ever felt. That is the moment where I was like, I can't keep on living like this outside of the marriage, living as a woman who doesn't know who she is, who doesn't have any limits, who doesn't have any boundaries, whose only emotion is anger. I felt nothing else but anger. And that's when I wanted to start doing some work on myself.

I can relate to the fact of feeling anger a lot.

Yeah.

And not knowing, like, what's the purpose? Why am I here? Like, I can't live like this anymore. And being in a state of reaction a lot. Yeah, it's not fun.

It's not. It's, it's like, I have a smile about it now because I know how the story ends.

Yeah, yeah.

But in that moment, there's nothing fun about it.

I mean, you're 23. You've got two kids and you, you see that your husband's cheating on you and the girl is there.

Yeah.

I'd, if I'm 23 and that happened to me, I don't know how to react either. Yeah, you probably react. the way you think to react. I'm gonna be angry, I'm gonna fight, I'm gonna scream. That's a normal response that you might see. So how does someone learn to develop tools, emotional skills to go beyond that?

Okay, so what I learned is that I wasn't just upset about the incident. I was upset that every time I was trying to create this image of my life, it kept being ripped to shreds.

What image?

This image of not a girl who got pregnant at 13. Whoever you think that girl is, that's not who I am. look, I went to school, look, I finally got married. I was trying to fix this image of myself. And so emotional tools for me came down to realizing that the marriage and even the pregnancy was the fruit, but it was not the root. It was the fruit of my insecurities. It was the fruit of my fear. It was the fruit of feeling like I didn't belong, but it wasn't the root. Emotional.

What's the root?

The root was that feeling like I didn't belong. and needing someone to tell me you belong here, whether that was as a teenager or even as an adult woman, I want you, this is where you belong, this is where you're supposed to be. And I kept hoping someone would answer that question for me, where do I belong?

What if no one ever answers that for you? What if no one ever says you belong here?

ASHLEY BLAINE KETT: so for me, I found the answer in my faith. Because the whole premise of our faith for me as a Christian is that you belong here because God created you and placed you in this earth. And yet it's difficult to understand, like, they're okay, well, there are millions and billions of people around me, like, so why does that make me special? Why does anyone care? And still surrendering to it as truth and asking myself, well, if I decided, if I just chose to try and believe this one day is truth, what would my life look like? What decisions would I make? How would I show up in the world? And it was really like me just trying it on, right? Like, I'm just going to try on this truth.

See how it feels. Just see.

Just see who I become. You know what I'm saying? You know, like, and that to me is what happens in faith in general. Like, I'm trying it on. Like, I don't know if I fully believe it myself, but I'm going to step into a faith that I don't fully understand and see how it can fit in my life. So I'm going to pretend that I'm fearfully and wonderfully made, and I'm going to make decisions from this heart posture. I'm going to pretend that I am not random and my life has purpose. and I'm gonna see how I show up in the world as a result of that. And I started loving the person who I was becoming when I believed that I was more than what just happened to me.

How do we love the image of a past that we're not proud of? How do we make that our fruit and not a pain?

Yeah, okay, this is, you're right up my alley with this. Because a lot of times when we, like, when I looked back at my teenage pregnancy, I cringed, you know? and yet I'm cringing about a part of my identity. Like, this is truth. You know, this is who I am. I spent so long trying to not be the girl who got pregnant at 13, but I am the girl who got pregnant at 13. That's my story.

You tried to hide it.

You tried to-- In my mind, emotionally, I felt like I want to separate from this idea that that's who I am.

But it's a part of you.

It is a part of me. And so I was living divided. And forgiveness for me came from not judging that girl who got pregnant at 13, It came from embracing her. Yeah. Embracing her.

Was it harder for you to forgive yourself or your husband? Not yourself or ramming the car.

No, I didn't feel anything. I didn't feel nothing about that.

But yourself for the 13-year-old pregnancy.

Myself for the 13-year-old pregnancy. It was harder. Oh, yeah.

Why is it harder to forgive ourselves in general than someone else?

Because once again, like, and not for nothing, like, this was not a good marriage on either side. You know what I mean? It wasn't right. It wasn't a good marriage. The most beautiful thing that came out of it is a little girl. But it wasn't a good man. I wasn't good to him. He wasn't good to me. Like, I would talk so crazy to him. Things I would never say on the School of Greatness, things I would never say now, understanding how delicate a person is. And so it was toxic in general, but I carried my own poison into it. and I take ownership for that. And when I've written about it, talked about in the past, I take ownership for that. And so it was easier to forgive that because I just realized that that was a byproduct of me having not forgiven myself from that original situation. Right.

And I'm curious, like, I don't have kids yet. You have six. How do you I mean, your father, I want to talk about with your father, it's not about him, but how did you grow up in a community where your father is preaching certain things that maybe you felt like you weren't living up to?

Yeah.

And then how do you, now that you're speaking this similar language that he is, how do you raise kids to not, to, to live into that and not kind of make mistakes on their own? I don't know. How do you do that?

Well, I think it's like expecting a dentist child to never have a cavity.

You're gonna want to eat some ice cream.

It's hard, you know what I mean? So I think the removal of the pressure of you have to do this. I mean, the idea that Christianity in general is about doing everything perfect, I think is why a lot of people struggle, because everyone knows the pressure. It's too much pressure. And the whole premise of this is that we cannot live up to this expectation. So we need someone to come to come and help save us from this idea that we can live perfectly. Like we are never gonna do it perfectly. So then it's like, how do I live with this thorn in my side? How do I strive to become better? How do I make peace with the fact that I am a work in progress? And I think somewhere lost in the translation of religion is this idea that you're never gonna mess up. And that's where we end up losing a lot of people. So I don't have pressure for them to not mess up. I have pressure on them to learn how to get back on track when they've strayed away.

Yeah, I think the judgment of like, needing to be perfect from people is the thing that pushes people away.

Because, like, who has time for that? Right. And life is too hard, and I have too many complications, and in some cases, too much trauma to think that I'm going to come into this space and do everything the right way. Jesus said, Turn the other cheek. You know, that's not really-- that's not.

You all the time, you know what I'm saying?

That's not really my jam.

What is the greatest trauma that you're still dealing with the most? that you maybe started the healing process and you've improved, but you're like, that still triggers me. Maybe I'm not slamming cars into someone, but it's still like, that doesn't feel good.

You know, I don't know that I have a certain incident that triggers me, but I think the residue of not.

Being able to defend myself Emotionally, spiritually, physically.

First of all, you better ask these questions. I'm trying to get clarity. I think emotionally, because I think that the residue of that shows up in my life and I have to advocate for my feelings. Because when I got pregnant, I felt like I did something wrong. Okay? And this is not just something wrong in church, right? Because if you do something wrong in church, there's another community that will embrace you. you. When you're a teen mom, there's not another community that's like, oh, we love team mom. You know what I mean? Like, oh, we please have another baby. We love this, you know? And so I didn't have anywhere to go in the world that wouldn't judge me or in the church that wouldn't judge me. And because this was something I willfully did, no one took advantage of me. I felt like, well, I can't be hurt over this. I can't be broken over this. I have to let everyone else grieve, and I just have to sit here with my feelings. But I was hurt. I was sad. I was disappointed. And so now, even as a woman, I have to learn to advocate for my right to have feelings, even if I've done something wrong.

Yeah, and even if it was your decision.

Yeah, right, right.

And it's hard at 13 to develop the emotional capacity to express and feel in a healthy way. Yeah, they don't have those tools.

And then you have to stop, right? Because when you're now a parent, you're not able, like, because I assume, I don't know, I've never been 13 and not had a child, but I I assume somewhere between 13 and adulthood, you learn how to get those tools. I feel like I emotionally shut down at 13 and have had to work to open up again.

Do you feel like you're a lot more open now?

I am.

My heart is open. I love everything.

I don't feel about it though. The other day I had to break up. I have a feelings wheel, you know?

Feelings wheel.

A feelings wheel.

Wheel.

Mm-. It's a wheel and it's got like, happy, sad, angry, and then once you pick one It shows you all of these different because my emotional vocabulary is pretty limited. And so like the other day I felt happy, but I didn't know like why or what. And then I had to follow my will and then the will to happy led me to like valued and respected, which were very foreign for me, like to have words that I feel valued, especially after struggling with my worth was like really interesting. My initial reaction was like, I don't want to feel that. And then I was like, you don't.

Want to feel valued.

That was my fear-based initial response, which I think is the residue of trauma throwing the wall up. But then I had to work to say, no, this is your life. This is your truth. Like, I'm still coaching myself emotionally.

ASHLEY BLAINE FEATHERBY: so, when you felt valued, it felt foreign.

Yeah, for sure. Not that I have never felt valued before, but I've never been able to connect what I was feeling with the idea of being valued.

When do you feel the most valued?

When my husband talks to me. Yes.

When he talks to you about anything.

When he just looks at me, when he just talks to me, when he just says whatever to me.

And how have you learned to develop your own self-worth, regardless of what he does or your kids do or your parent, you know, how have you done that yourself?

So in between, so I got divorced and I moved back home with my parents.

You didn't kill them?

No. No, no, no. No, everything worked out fine. I didn't go to prison. Everything, yeah.

I kept your kids.

I kept my children, you know. I moved back home with my parents, and I started rebuilding from there, really from the inside out. And then, you know, I fell in love with myself. Like, because I think I was so, so just uninterested in who I'd become. that when I finally got out of that marriage, I started confronting my own poison. And I was so in love with myself and with my life and with my children, and I was able to get a house by myself. And so, like, I'm a. I ended up getting to that place I wanted to be where I was, like, a good mom and taking care of my children, and I was happy with myself, and I was taking care of my health and my body. And so I felt so valued. by myself then, that when my husband came in, he really just echoed what I was already saying about myself. And so I think that me coming to that place on my own had a lot to do with self forgiveness and then beginning to work towards a life that felt true to my potential and my dreams.

How did you get the poison out?

I think the first thing is acknowledging that it was there.

Because you weren't really acknowledging like, this is what happened, right? Blocking it and disassociating.

Exactly.

So what did that process look like? Okay, I've lived this life up until now. And what is the conversation that you had with yourself? Did you do some journaling? Were you just praying and connecting to God? Were you talking to your parents? Like, what was happening?

I did a lot of journaling. I started blogging. I let the poison and speak.

Isn't it interesting when we hold our shame in, the poison just grows and expands?

Yeah.

It's like the moment we share our shame, whether it be to ourselves, written down to a friend or whatever, it's we release it.

Yeah, that's exactly what happened. I gave the poison a voice.

What was the voice?

Okay, so it said, you're worthless. like, you're nasty. You're never going to have purpose. No one will ever want you. No one will ever be proud of you. Like, I let the poison speak. These were my thoughts 24/7. These were my thoughts 24/7 from 13 to 23. That's 10 years of poison.

You kept saying to yourself, I'm worthless. No one's ever gonna value me. No one's gonna love me.

This idea of, like, oh, I'm proud of you. Like, I never had I had thoughts that were positive towards myself. Never. My dad would say, you,'re smart, and I would instantly reject it, because I'm like, Smart girls don't get pregnant.

I thought, Smart, why'd I do this?

Exactly. So when I finally started letting it speak, I came to this place where I had to ask myself, How long are we going to receive this as truth? and then I would blog it. I would put those words out. Like, no one knew that I was pregnant, but I would like, or that I'd gotten pregnant at the time. Of course, people know now, but I would just, like, write all of these things. And then at the end of this blog, I would kind of, like, talk to myself as if a friend was talking to me. And it was through that process that I had something to say back to the poison, and then it went from whispering it back to the poison, to raising my voice and raising my voice until the poison had to shut up because faith was speaking.

Wait a minute. So for 10 years, your self-talk was poison based. The foundation was not good enough. You don't matter. You're not valued. You're not smart. All these things. How important is self talk for you now in order to develop and increase self worth?

Well, okay, so, you know, in scripture, it talks about being transformed by the renewing of your mind. Yes, the renewing of your mind is what took place in that moment. And so as my mind has been renewed, I have been transformed. And in that transformation, it's why the other day when I felt like valued and I initially rejected, I let my renewed mind say, instead, receive this. Allow it to penetrate the parts of your life that have never heard this before or wasn't aware enough to receive it. And so Mary J. Blige says once that, you know, she doesn't have children because she needed to parent herself. And I feel like in many ways, the way that I feel like I'm talking to myself in some instances is me parenting myself.

It's so funny, I don't have my phone on me, but on my phone, I've been working with a coach and a spiritual therapist right now who's been telling me to have a photo of my childhood self on my phone, like six or seven years old. So I've got a photo on my phone, I'll show you afterwards. And it's for me, whenever I feel that trigger coming in to like reparent myself and reconnect and be like, Hey, you're safe. It's okay. Like you don't have to be afraid of this. You don't have to react. You can let that go. I got your back. You know, these things. And I think we haven't learned these tools on how to re-parent ourselves. It's challenging. And I can only imagine having kids and not having the tools to parent ourselves and then trying to parent someone else.

For sure.

Triggers must just be coming up all day long.

And I feel like, I mean, I will, two things. I don't know that previous generations had the tools at all.

At all.

It's all trigger, reaction, anger, For sure.

Fear. Yeah, and I think because of, you know, whether you've got toxic masculinity or the rise of women in the corporate environment, like there are so many, we had so many different things to worry about that, like how you feel, like, child, please, we'll talk about that later. Exactly. And so, you know, that didn't happen for the previous generations, but what I will say is this, I do think no matter how great you've had parenting in your life, that there's an ache inside of all of us. Now, it could be something minor, like a headache, or it could be a missing leg, depending on what you've gone through in life emotionally. Yeah. In some way. And so I think to come to terms with the fact that there is going to be a part of me, and even for me as a parent, there's going to be a part of my children that I just don't see, that I just don't see. I'm going to give this 100, but there's still going to be moments. Life still going to have to suck them in. And in the process of doing that, they may come out wounded. And this is part of what I thought even when I was a single mother is like, so my job is not to protect them from harm. I'm going to do the best that I can, but I realize that they are going to have some harm, right? They're going to school, they're going to be around people and peers and who knows what will happen in that environment. My role is to show them how to recover from harm.

That's so true. That's so true. I feel like no matter how much we create safety for our kids, again, I'm acting like I'm a father, but I'm not in general. No matter how much we create safety, there's gonna be some trigger, some wound, some pain they feel from peers or school or sports or music.

Yeah, it's true.

Whatever they're in, they're gonna have something that hurts them. We can't always protect our kids, but what you just said, teaching them the tools on how to recover, how to emotionally navigate those feelings. how to express it in a healthier way.

Yeah.

Is, I think, our responsibility.

Yeah.

As parents or as humans, right?

Yeah. I think I get on my kids nerves because now I'm like, let's look at the feelings. Let's talk about deep feelings. Write down.

Write down. Tell me how you're feeling. Let's process this in a healthy way.

Yeah.

I think it's better than screaming and raging. I mean, I think there's a time for feeling the full range of emotions and, and being angry, but in general, that's a poison.

Yeah, I agree.

In general.

I will tell you one of the things that I noticed immediately about my husband, Torrey, who I've been married to now for seven years. When we first got married, so we're a blended family with six children. So he had two. He had three. I had two and we have one together. So that's how we got our six. But, you know, when he was parenting his children, if he had a bad day and was like, maybe too sharp or too rough, he would apologize to them. And I was like, oh, no, we don't apologize to children. We don't do that. We just let them get over it. We take them for ice cream. And he was like, no, it's okay to apologize to your children. I cannot remember a time when my parents apologized to me.

This is the way.

You do what I say.

You go to your room and this is the law.

Absolutely. And even if I'm wrong, suck it up. I'm right most of the time. and so my husband taught me the power of apologizing to your children. And so even when you have those moments where maybe you fly off the handle, you react too soon, or don't react from the best version of yourself, don't underestimate the ability to go back and fix it through an apology.

What have you learned about yourself as a parent now from what you witnessed as a kid with someone in a high profile? now you're in a high profile. Is there things that you want to make sure you really do to support the evolution of your kids, to not have to live up to the greatness of Mom and the pressure of the attention that Mom gets, but allowing them to be themselves in their best way?

Yeah.

So something you've learned from that to where you're at now and how you're passing that down?

Yeah. I want to answer your question. I'm gonna take the long way, though. Yeah.

Give it to me.

So when I when I was seven, we moved from West Virginia to Dallas. And in West Virginia, there were like 50 families that were a part of our church community. It wasn't very large. Our first Sunday in Dallas, 1500 people joined the church. 1500 people the very first Sunday.

They joined, or it was already a church with 1500 people.

It was like, this is our first Sunday. Anyone who wants to come can come. And 1500 people came.

How did they hear about it?

The radio.

Okay. Was your father already pretty well known.

In He, I mean, he was on TBN, which is like, you know, Christian television. And so between that and radio, people knew who he was. So, you know, mega churches get a lot of slack because there are so many people there and it's such a big building. But like when 1500 people join on a Sunday, it's like, my dad can preach eight services or we can try and get a building that's big enough for everyone to come.

Yeah, 3,000 in one time.

Yeah, you know. And so, and I know that, you know, whatever, but anyways, 1500 people joined. And what I learned or what I felt in that moment was like this instant separation from them.

From parents.

Yeah, for sure. Because even in West Virginia, like I would sit by my mom in church in Dallas, they set up on a platform and we sat down like in the pews. And so this instant separation, I felt now, you know, this was their first time ever doing it. They're trying to survive. So we've gotten to learn from them.

Sure.

So one of the things that I have learned is to keep my children close to me.

Interesting.

So as our ministry and platform grows, you know, we go on tour. Our four oldest children go with us. Our two youngest are now old enough to come with us, but I try to keep them close. Like when we're at church, they're sitting with me. I want them to feel a part of it, not a piece in it.

Not separate. Interesting.

Yeah.

That's smart. That's wisdom.

Yeah, I'm trying. I'm trying.

What do you think is your biggest mistakes you make currently that you're aware of?

Yeah, I don't know that I'm aware of them.

Maybe she's like, I know what this is. Your husband would be like, texting me.

I know this, this, this. I don't know that I am aware of them. I will tell, okay, 'cause me and my husband were talking about this the other day. confrontational at all. And so...

I'm just imagining the car running in the middle of the room. Not confrontation.

Now, me, this version of myself, is not confrontation. Well, I will say when it comes to communication, right? So I am not-- and I don't mean confrontational, even like in-- with anger, because there's good confrontation, right?

Of course.

So I don't have healthy confrontation skills.

What do you have?

I'm either silent or I'm flipping this table over.

Wow. Yeah, you're either frustrated.

I'm learning. I've got a feelings wheel. Right, right. So it's. I'm, you know, 0 to 60. And so with the children, if they do something that I know isn't necessarily like, I don't confront them about it. And so I feel like an area where I'm learning and growing right now is to be more. confrontational in a healthy way when I see them doing something. You know, like if I see my daughter go upstairs with like some chips and she's not supposed to have food, you know, like I may take the chips out of her hand, but I don't sit down and talk to her about like why would you willfully break one of our rules? And you know, what does this like, I don't do that. I just take the chips.

Just like, you don't got time for that. Girl, please. Yeah, you got six kids in business.

You're like, I don't have time. I don't have time for it. Yeah. But that's not good because I I need to call them out so that you know that I know that you out here not doing the right thing.

Yeah, breaking the rules.

Exactly. I feel like I've given you so much to work with that you don't know where to start.

No, I'm excited. I want to go back to self-worth, because I think women, this is the thing that you said that women need the most support with, self-worth, developing self-worth, or one of the main things.

For sure, and I will say that our society plays a big role in that, when we don't have equal pay, so that already says that my worth is not as valuable as the worth of my counterparts. When we have to work twice as hard to just get the bare base of a salary, I think that that communicates something when our worth comes down to our body image and, and what size we are and what does our skin look like and our hair look like. There are a lot of things that automatically say, this is how I determine your worth. And so don't add any other emotional emotional, toxic issues that you may have, because from there, where do I fit at all?

So how does someone continue to learn how to develop self-worth even when things aren't fair and things aren't equal yet and things aren't where they could be? How does a woman learn how to develop that through self-talk and other strategies?

You know, for me, my worth, like I said, it started with me just trying on my face, right? And so it became such an intimate conversation between me and God, where this reflection of His ideas and His vision for my life became something that I began reaching for. I say that to say that I think that we have to believe in our worth.

How do we believe it if everything is telling us we're not worth anything?

This is such, okay, so how does.

Someone, like for 10 years, you didn't believe it?

Yeah.

And most, for a long time in my life, I didn't believe it either. And I know a lot of people listening or watching are thinking like, no, I'm not deserving of this. Why should I get this? How do we learn to believe when all we've ever done is doubt?

Maybe it's less about belief and more about acceptance. You know, because I think at the end of the day, I had to surrender to the fact that whether I think I deserve it or not, it's in my life.

I'm here.

It's here.

I'm here. I'm alive.

It's like, this is the only body I'm gonna have. I think what calling belief is actually acceptance. Maybe it's self-acceptance and finding worth in the acceptance of our actual truth and truth building us up in such a way that we live without fear because we're no longer afraid of our own truth. Because I do think the acceptance of this is my body, this is my life, this is my past, like, this is my husband. And if I only have a short amount of time here? Do I want to spend it rejecting the very life that I've been given, or do I want to dare to accept it with no fear that it could be gone tomorrow? Like, even with me and Womanyevolve, like, I'm at this place now where I'm like, I'm going to give this thing 100% and I'm not going to worry about how I keep it afloat. Because right now it's here, right now it's present.

Don't stress about it going away.

Yeah, yeah. I want, but I do think, like, this is probably going to sound a little crazy and I have no science to prove it. But I'm out here and I'm gonna say it anyway. I feel like practicing acceptance and living in a moment is something that social media and just our phones in general have robbed us of. I have to tell myself to put my phone down when watching a movie.

Because we're watching and on the phone and on the iPad.

For sure. And then what happened? Or saying the movie wasn't good. you didn't even watch the movie, but I think there's something about practicing being present fully in a moment. And I think that as we practice that, that we will take in our life in such a way that we find what we enjoy about it and we accept it and embrace it and love the life that we live.

How do we accept if we're not happy with what we have?

Then we get to decide how we got to accept it if we're going to change it. You know, like when you get an Amazon box, you don't know what's in it. You open that box, you don't I always like what's in it. And what do you have to do? I got to process a refund, a return. This can't stay in my life. So I think we have to accept that. Okay, so this is my life. I'm in a bad marriage. Okay. My career isn't where I want it to be. Like, this is my truth. I'm going to accept this as my truth. And then I have to determine, can my truth stay? Can I build with this truth? And if not, what do I need to do? Do I need to go to therapy? Do I need to go back to school? Should I start a side business? What would it take for me to come to a where I can embrace and love the truth that I've had to accept. Yeah.

You mentioned relationships. You've been married twice? Yeah, twice. What are three things that people should look for when knowing they've found the right partner for their life? Maybe not the perfect person, but the right person, great fit. Three things.

Okay, this is on the spot, so I'm gonna take my time.

Yeah, it's okay. All right.

First thing that you should look for is the best version of yourself.

In them or you being the best version of yourself?

You being the best version of yourself. You know, I don't want to even talk about what the other person should possess until you understand the fullness of what you possess.

That's smart.

You know, because too much onus is on what a person is going to bring into the room. What do you bring into the room? Who are you at your best? Who are you at your worst? How do you handle your finances? How do you handle your emotions? What does anger look like? for you? Where's your childhood baggage? You know, how is that playing out in your adulthood? Who are you? My father said the most powerful thing to me after I went through my divorce. And I wasn't even thinking about marrying again. But he was saying in the context of marriage in general that when you're married, you're looking for the person who you want to be beside you when you put me in the ground.

Ooh, it's got the chills.

It's because in your most fragile moment, who do you want besides you? When everything you've known is being pulled up from underneath you, who do you want besides you? So I think understanding who you are well enough to make that decision is the first thing.

Yeah, and if you can't imagine when you're going to be buried, if that's the person you want next to you, then maybe it's not the right fit.

Right.

So was that, I think that was.

One of the things. That was one. Okay, best two is someone who has done that type of work for themselves.

Which type of work?

That type of work of knowing their strengths, their weaknesses, their childhood trauma, someone who knows themselves well enough that they can say, oh, I'm sorry. The little boy in me was speaking. The little girl in me speaking, right?

Take responsibility for those actions.

Absolutely. What you can't do unless you've gone on a journey yourself. Right. And then the third thing I will say is someone who makes you laugh. Because laughter is medicine. It is. And if you're going to do life with someone in a world that is often sick, you want to have that medicine right beside you every night.

A lot of challenges that come up. You might as well be having fun in the challenges. Yes.

My husband and I laugh at the most inappropriate things. It's like, this is not funny. Like, you know, there's this big shift or transition or the kids are going through something crazy and we're like, hey, at least they're not ugly. And I'm like, well, you can't. You know what I mean? Like, we gotta find something and that makes it possible for us to make it through the thickness of life. Yeah.

What would you say is your biggest fear right now?

That I'll miss my life, that I'll be so busy building it that I miss it.

What are you doing to make sure you don't miss it?

I am avoiding the pressure to perform and being intentional about scheduling time to do nothing. Blank space.

Gosh, it's so. I'm so glad you're saying this because I'm hearing. I'm hearing this, you're the second person that said this in my life in the last month. So I'm hearing like, okay, this is something that I need to be thinking of more of just scheduling no time. Yeah. Whether it's a day of no time, a week, a month, and just no time.

For sure. So my friend Shanice is here and we're in this book tour kind of heavy and thick. And I was like, I need to schedule a week off. And she's like, you, can't schedule a week off. We got stuff to do. And I was like, first of all, whose side are you on? And I'm like, no, I to schedule it because I'm going to miss all of it if I don't take time to consume it. It's, I explain this in the book. I say that a lot of times women are so busy, like photographers at Sears saying, let's put the bow tie here, let's put this person here, let's put the house there, let's put the props here. They're building this picture of their life, but they don't make room for them in the picture because we're so busy thinking about what we want to create and what we want that image to look like. that we forget that we belong in the picture too. So I call it soul care, taking care of our own soul, seeing ourselves in our world. And sometimes you got to zoom out of your world to see yourself in it. Definitely.

You need that space and time of just not working, not doing anything, just being.

Yeah, absolutely.

And it's challenging when there's so many opportunities at this point in your life, right? Yeah. Like every opportunity is coming your way. People want you to speak everywhere. Luis keeps hounding you to come on a School of Greatness. Like we need some more of you on the show and it's scary too. You got six kids and a husband, you got your health, you got all these things you got to take care of. How do we win every opportunity that's coming our way? This is a very first world problem. The abundance is in my life, the opportunity galore. How do we learn to say no and know that those will still be there after we give back?

You don't know. You don't know. You don't know. You literally don't know. Yeah. And and yet I trust that I am where I am supposed to be and that if I make that's a fear based decision to say I have to take on everything because if I don't, I could lose it.

That's scarcity.

Yeah, that's scarcity for sure. For sure. And so I practice this a lot because we've had like TV show opportunities, we've had book deals, we've had speaking stuff like so many people who want to capitalize off of the gift. And yet the truth is, I'm really the only person who understands the fullness of what I can and cannot offer. And so if I allow everyone to capitalize off of my gift, I could do so at the risk of depletion if I'm not in tune enough with myself to know when I need to back off. And I had a baby right in the middle of me, like, kind of becoming someone who spoke a lot. And I was afraid, like, you know, I love my daughter, but I was afraid that, like, oh, my God, my gosh, is this going to stop my progress? And I have found that even in that downtime, it is accelerated exponentially. This is my fifth book. None of them were even close to becoming, you know, what this book could possibly become. And yet what happened in between my first, my last book and this book is I took time away and said, I'm not going to write again until I have something worth. I'm passionate enough to write about, and I to trust that it would come. And when it came, there was a wind on it. So, you know, I'm a preacher. So, like, there's this wind when you're in the flow of what the world needs.

Wind beneath your wings.

Just like, there's a wind that just takes things. It's acceleration. It's. It's beyond what can be formulated by a publicist or an agent or a publisher. There is a knowing that says, if I strike now, no one distracts. and when I strike, I trust that it'll do what it's supposed to do.

It's so interesting you say that for like a year and a half, I've been working on a book, but I haven't felt like that window to strike. So I've just been researching and collecting notes and gathering information and formulating it, but it hasn't been right. I feel like the window's about to come, but it's still not here. And instead of forcing it like I normally do, I'm just like, okay, I'm just not writing a book right now. I'm gonna wait until it feels like it's the time. And you gotta also trust yourself and not, like, I've already written a few books before.

No, this is not procrastination.

I feel like I'm afraid to put out my message. Yeah, 'cause you've done it too.

Yeah, for sure. And that's why leaps of faith teach you a lot about yourself and it teaches you a lot about just trusting your message and the release of your message. But yeah, when I wrote my last book, I was like, I'm not doing this again. There's so much pressure to be a New York Times best seller. So much. I hate it. I hate it.

Part of the thing that I've actually been resisting is like the whole traditional book publishing world and waiting a year and a half until they release it and then you get a dollar a book and they own it. Like, I'm grateful for that.

Sure.

But I don't know if that's the future.

Yeah. First of all, you sound like my husband. He is big on like tear the whole system down. Tear it down, yeah, yeah. But no, there's so much pressure on this New York Times bestseller list. It's a lot. And pre-order sales, you need to pre-order sales, you need to pre-order sales. And I was like, I'm not gonna write again until I have a book that is worth the pressure of going through.

Going all in on it.

Yeah.

And this book, why do we need to break up with your fears? and revolutionize your life. Why did you feel like this is the message you needed to put out right now?

Well, because to be in relationship with your fears mean that they're constantly speaking and dictating who you are and how you show up. So to break up with your fears means I'm in relationship with my fears. Like we go together, like everywhere I go, they go, they determine where I can go and how I should move. And so break up with your fears are in control. For sure.

They're manipulating you.

Yes.

They're consuming you.

Yes. I write in the book and I don't remember the exact quote, but it's like your fears pretend to keep you safe. They do. They pretend.

But what are they really doing?

Okay, so I'm gonna try. I'm probably gonna butcher it, but I did write it. I promise. It's like your fears pretend to keep you safe and your faith makes a demand on courage you aren't sure you possess. Yes. And so we end up indecisive because those extremes are so difficult.

Procrastinating, self-analyzing, assessing what could go wrong, what about this, embarrassment, all these things, right?

Absolutely.

When we are living in that space of fear of what could go wrong, what are we really saying?

I don't trust that I can handle if this doesn't work out well. I'm afraid that this will break me. I'm afraid that this will prove that I don't have worth. I'm afraid that this will prove that I'm not smart enough.

Ooh, gosh.

I'm afraid that this will become the evidence that my insecurities need to keep me from being who I'm supposed to be, whoever that is.

And what if it is the evidence? What if people said, this is a failure, this flopped, I can't believe we did this, It didn't work. What happens if you find that that is evidence for you? How can you flip it and make it empowering as opposed to disempowering?

We have to come to a place where we realize that like not everything you do is going to win.

It's gonna be great. World class.

Like you're gonna suck sometimes. Like you just are. And yet I was listening to this podcast with Brené Brown and Sarah Lewis and they were talking about the difference between success and mastery. Mastery. When your goal is Mastery, you recognize that failure is going to be a part of the process. But because you want to be a master, you dissect that failure, extract the wisdom from it, and apply it to the next try. Because at the end of the day, I'm going for Mastery when it comes to this. Like you're doing the school of greatness. I have a feeling that you're not just trying to put out one good podcast. You're right. You're trying to a space in which people are able to come here and literally become great. Yes. So if you have a podcast and the numbers don't do well, we don't turn the cameras off and walk out of the building.

We suck.

Nah, we too gully for that. Okay, come on. We're coming back in here. We're going to do whatever is necessary. I'm going to ask better questions. I'm going to do more research the next time, because failure is not where I'm going to allow the story to end.

Why do we allow, why do some people stop once they fail. Once they go after this dream, it didn't work out. You know, I give up. Why do people do that?

Because I think they wanted the success to define them.

As opposed to what defining them?

As opposed to allowing who they are to just be who they are. Like I'm looking for something that is going to add to my value and add to my identity. So if I do something and it fails, I'm not going to try again because I can't take take another, another debit off of this account, right? This is taking a debit off of my worth, and I'm going to go into the overdraft, so I'm not going to do it again. And so I think to come to this place where, like, listen, I'm just out. This is what I tell my team all the time. I'm like, I'm just doing stuff at this point because, like, I already experienced failure. Like, ramming cars, CPS, like, okay, if we drop a clothing drop and it doesn't go well, like, we're okay. I'm not in jail, you know? I still got my kids. Yeah, you know what? So that has given me this sense of freedom that like failure for me is really deep. It's like a deep thing. And I'm able to prioritize properly what actual failure is. So I think that when your efforts are to define your identity and then those efforts don't work out well, it is easy to say, I'm not going to do it again.

Right.

It's almost like we need to flip it and just say the effort itself is the worth.

Exactly.

The act of doing, the act of being and who you become in the expression of your your truth, your gift, your art, your talent. No matter what someone says about it, that is the worth.

In my book, I say success is in the process, not the outcome.

Absolutely.

It's in the process. It's who you become.

The process is the prize.

Yeah, for sure. Come on, I love that.

Not the prize. At the end, it's what you become in the process. What's another thing that you see women really struggling with today? Self-worth being one of them. and if they developed more self-worth and self-confidence or self-acceptance in the self-worth, what could they become more of in the world?

You know, I say this while I watch women rise in places of leadership, because I do think that there is leadership that women have not been able to access that we're seeing them access now. So I think that we're beginning to move forward in that way. I think that what we would become are champions of other women, too, though. I think that we would be so enthralled with who we became. I've got this whole slogan for the book that I just pulled out of the air, which is no woman left behind. Because when you realize how bound you once were and now how much freedom and creativity and strategy and wholeness you feel in your identity, we would become champions like modern-day Harriet Tubman, making sure that any woman who's ever felt shame or any woman who's ever felt like she couldn't graduate or climb the ladder, we would make sure that no woman was left behind from the fullness of her identity.

And if a woman doesn't feel valued, doesn't feel accepted, doesn't feel like they belong, whether it be their family, whether it be their friends, their work, they don't feel like they belong or they accept themselves, what's the next steps they could take to feel like they belong, no matter if someone accepts them or not?

Yeah, I think it goes back to like, okay, so this is the life that I have. Like, I know how you feel, but like, this is where I am. And if no one is doing it, if no one's valuing you, if no one's accepting you, are you bold enough to be the first person who embraces yourself?

That's hard.

Yeah, but necessary.

I'm a big fan of what you just said because I'm always telling people that it doesn't matter if the world believes in you and says you're the greatest. If you still don't believe in yourself, it doesn't matter how much talent you have, skills, athletic ability. If you don't learn to believe in yourself, the world could put you in a leadership position, but you've got to learn to believe it. And the beautiful part of that is it doesn't matter if the world is against you and doesn't believe, because if you do believe, you can make something of yourself.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

It's just so hard to believe sometimes when you've never learned how to do it.

You know, I do think that there is something to, you know, writing the vision and making it plain. So, like, who would I be if I believed in myself? Because right now it's like, okay, I should believe in myself, but, like, who would I be? How would that feel for me? What decisions would I make? how would I speak? What classes would I take? Where would I travel? And if you can make a list of who you would be if you believed in yourself and say, I'm going to practice this today. I'm going to practice and see if I can speak up. I'm going to book a trip. I'm going to take a class. I'm going to laugh out loud. Who would I be? If you could try practice it, I think that that is a good way to practically begin to become someone who loves who they are and is able to accept their identity.

Yeah, that's cool. We got to practice it before we become it. And in your marriage, what are non-negotiables for you in order to keeping a great connection in your marriage that you apply to your life and you also recommend other people, non-negotiables.

Oh, good.

Whether it be a daily or yearly, something you feel like this is non-negotiable every day in our relationship.

I mean, respect, respect, and not just like the basic human respect, though, that is a part of it. I love the way my husband sees the world. I respect it. I respect it. Like, I could never think the way that he does. And, you know, I got my own thing going for me, but, like, I love the way he, I have I have respect for his mind. I have respect for his decision making. I respect him. And I feel like that level of respect in a relationship sounds basic and fundamental, and yet I'm not so sure that it exists in every relationship. Because so many people are like roll their eyes when their spouse says something or they're like, oh, here they go again. And I never feel like that with my husband.

You respect him.

I respect him.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm assuming he respects you.

Yeah, he does.

That's number one.

So, yes. Okay, so respect number two, non-negotiable we're first in the sea of all of the things we have going on. We are the nucleus of our world.

Yes.

Which means if we're not good, we cannot expand beyond that. If that means we have to cancel meetings. My husband has put up a guest speaker on Sunday because we weren't flowing well.

Mm-.

Like, we don't fake it and then come back and we'll figure it out. Like, if we need to go upstairs real quick to talk, like, we don't allow our nucleus to be torn apart. That's beautiful. That's, and especially as a blended family, you know, when we first started dating, like, I let our kids go one day. I was like, we need to let the kids date, too, so we can get to know one another. But even in a blended family, like, we recognize, like, our children are actively planning right now to leave us. us.

How do we get out? How do we get out of here?

Like, oh, I'm gonna move to New York. And my five-year-old's like, one day when I get my own job, I'm like, okay, so you guys are leaving us, okay? Which means that I gotta make sure this is tight because I'm gonna be looking at him when you're gone, okay? And I don't want to have to start from scratch when you walk out of the door. And so we keep us tight. We keep us tight even if that's over the not over the kids, because that doesn't just over the kids doesn't mean the kids are the bottom, but it means like we want to allow them to divide us. We won't allow them to play us against one another. So like we remain the core, even in business, if something like my husband has been, he's basically been on the book tour with me. I've been waking up at 3:30. He wakes up with me because I've been doing some press that is foreign for me. And you know, you say one thing the wrong way and it's a snapshot. It goes everywhere. And so he's like in my corner coaching me and helping me out because we're tight. Okay. And then the third non-negotiable, for me is a recapping our day.

What does that look like?

We use, he usually puts his head on my lap. Oh, and that's nice. It's kind of like, it's, it's, I love them. I love it. But it's kind of like, you know, how's your day? It's basically saying, what did the world look like from your perspective? Even if we spent the whole day together, it's like, what did the world look like from your perspective today? And that's really important because, like, you take maybe a more traditional home environment before the pandemic, and the husband comes home and, you know, and these are just, I'm using, you know, stereotypical gender roles, so please bear with me. Maybe the husband doesn't take out the trash. and the wife hasn't cooked dinner. And he's frustrated because dinner's not done. And she's frustrated because the trash isn't taken out. But she doesn't know that his boss was riding him all day. And he doesn't realize that, you know, one of her best friends is depressed. And so having that moment at the end of the day where it's like, what, how did you experience this world? How did your Humanity be shaped? How was your Humanity shaped in this day? What did you experience emotionally is an opportunity to love one another better.

That's beautiful.

Thank you.

That's beautiful. Who was the most influential person in your life growing up?

Not rappers. Not, I don't know who said that. I didn't think I was a thug. The most inspirational person in my life growing up.

Most influential person.

I mean, I don't, I will say I kind of break up my childhood into, like, different sectors. Right. So because I got pregnant at 13, like, immediately women like Kathy Hughes and Oprah Winfrey became role models to me. Even Whoopi Goldberg, who had her child as a teen, Kathy Hughes, chat as a teen. And they went on to Oprah Winfrey got pregnant at a young age. She didn't end kept keeping the baby. I think the baby passed away. And yet these women who had experienced this pregnancy and were able to overcome were really influential to me because they just served as reminders that there's life after this. And then probably honestly, like, just any hip-hop artist at all. And that sounds so terrible because I am now a whole person's pastor. But, you know, I was influenced very heavily by the cultures. so I mean, I grew up in the 90s and early 2000s, so like culture was like my thing. It was the only like me rapping and doing the hands like me. I was out on the block doing things like that. I was heavily influenced by that.

Sure. Okay. What do you think was the biggest lesson you learned growing up?

What I know now as the biggest lesson, I would not have said that then, but what I know now, is that I can always come home. And home can mean my parents' house. Home can mean the place where I can feel confident and secure and whole, where love is abundant and peace is overflowing. I knew that subconsciously growing up because home is always where I landed. Like me and my two kids came home, like home, that idea of home. was a very important part of my life. And I feel like that lesson youn Can Always Come Home, I was learning throughout my teen years.

And what were the skills you wish you would have learned sooner?

Trust.

When did you learn to trust?

After I got divorced.

What did that feel like?

It felt like you made a good decision. Leaving was a good decision. And you can trust yourself to make a good decision. And then it started becoming like, well, what other good decisions can I trust trusted myself to make, you know, and being sensitive to pick those out wisely. Like when I first, you know, met my husband at this point, he should probably be on the podcast with us. But when I first met him, I was so proud of the decision I made him. Like, I couldn't wait until he met my parents because I trusted my decision making so much because of me, you know, I got the house. I was able to trust that. I landed this book deal and I negotiated myself and I was able to trust that. So I had all of these little check marks that allowed me to. And when I bought my house, it was such a big deal for me because I looked at the area, I looked at the progression, I looked at the home value. I knew that it was a good investment. And so I learned to trust myself. And I wish that I would have trusted myself earlier. I think that that's what happened with the team. I lost the ability to trust myself when I got pregnant. And yet I feel like had I done that earlier, things you know, would have been different, but probably not as beautiful as they are now.

What would you say are three skills that every 22 year old should start to learn? Whether it be learning to trust themselves or their environment, whether it be public speaking skills, a soft skill, you know, whatever it may be. What do you think are three skills that everyone leaving transitioning from school into adulthood, whatever you want. What skills? Do you think they should develop?

Vision, vision, not just a dream, because to me, I feel like a dream feels very distant, but a vision for now, a healthy vision for now. At 22, you know, you're kind of still taking things as they come.

Yes.

And yet to say, no, I need to really take ownership of the vision of my life, I think allows you to begin making decisions in that direction. Vision to be present, to be fully present.

Yeah, it's a skill.

Yeah.

Most people are distracted.

Oh, my goodness. To be fully present. And. Okay, now so many are coming to me. Okay, let me. To avoid comparison.

The thief of joy.

Yeah, avoiding comparison.

I want to ask about money for a little bit.

Okay.

How does someone, I love bringing on preachers. People in the church and talking about money because I'm always of the mindset that money should be of abundance to us if we want to receive it. But I know that there's been like a stigma around the church world. I don't know if it's still happening now or in the past around like having money, making money. It should all be sacrificial type of energy. I'm not sure if that's still true or not. How do you approach the mindset around making money and not feeling bad about making money? and, and multiplying money for yourself.

So I don't, I mean, I think the stigma is still around, but, like, I'm right in the thick of it. So, you know, it could be my sensitivity towards it, but I definitely think it's around still. I was really intentional when I first started my, you know, life and the movement of woman evolve to make sure that I at different streams of income, right? So we have a store that has a product connected to it. And so that is a stream for me. I podcast and so we have advertise. So there are all of these different streams connected to it. And I feel like part of the reason why I'm able to balance it is I want to make sure that the ministry part of what I get to do is as free and accessible as possible. Now, when we tour, we take 40 people on the road. We've got buses, I've got overhead, I've got major expenses. And still, even with that, like we try to make it feasible enough that these people can be paid so that they can take care of their families, but that I'm not taxing the people who are connected. So 19 to $25, $32, maybe depending on the venue that we're in, something that is reasonable, you know, and then we try to make sure that we're also doing plenty of things for free. So if you're never able to go on tour, like we need to have something monthly. And I've had to really, because Woman Evolve is not a church. It's a movement that I kind of like, I want to have events, I want to have conferences. And yet my husband actually made me realize, like, this is the only church that some people go to. Like, they don't go to church on Sundays. They are connected to you. And so I felt a responsibility to make sure that I was not just having stuff that had a fee connected to it. Right. So making sure I have video content is available. The ministry of what we do, you know, the things that are a little bit more fun that we have to put great production value into, there's a fee connected to it. But even at that, I'm always thinking in terms of like, how can we make this reasonable? I don't assume that people just have money laying around. Like how can we make this as reasonable as possible? Where it's like if I give up Starbucks for a month, then I can get this subscription to the channel where I can get all of these resources that are in value. Mm-. So I try to make sure that the fee is as little as possible.

And how do you personally think about money and the abundance of money and the mindset around it to attract more around the business side of things, not the ministry side, but how do you think about that to continue to be a leader in your space, a female leader, a woman of faith in the church, and also be an example of like, Hey, you can preach and do this stuff for free, but also you can go and make as much money as you want.

Yeah.

What is the mindset around that for you?

I will tell you, especially as a black woman, that I feel like the idea of luxury for African-Americans whether you are a preacher or you are someone who is an entrepreneur or someone who is in sports or whatever, I think there is a normalization that is necessary. because for the most part, it's like even when we look at things in the diaspora in Africa, like there is this image of Africa that we are constantly inundated with of children who need to be fed. And I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, and I'm not saying that we don't need to sow into those lives. But there is another version of Africa that we hardly ever highlight where people are doing well, where they are driving nice cars, where they're flying private jets. But I I do think that we do have to have people who are more comfortable saying, okay, we're not just all trying to make it out of the projects. That is a reality for a lot of us, but that is not everyone's story. And I think if we don't begin to normalize these images and normalize vacations and luxury on our level, then we end up continuing this cycle of saying that to be black in America means that we're all either to be athletes, we can't do business, or we're all on drugs, we're all struggling when there are different versions and expressions of us that we don't get to see very often.

When did you start to create more financial freedom for yourself? How old were you? And what was that feeling like when you're like, oh, I've got this revenue stream and this revenue stream. And I'm okay, I can take care of myself. I have abundance this month. I can give some contribute some like when did that start to happen?

It was probably right before the pandemic.

Really?

Yeah.

So not until 20, right before 2020.

I. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

Where you felt like you had, like, a surplus, you had extra.

Okay. So, like, where I felt like, not only do I. Yeah. When I have a surplus into. Okay, so Surplus is different depending on what you're building.

Gotcha.

So my Plus, when it was just me, existed before 2020. But now I have a business and I have people I started hiring and I had overhead. And when I first hired them, it was just me. And your girl was scared because now your whole life depends on whether or.

Not you're making the money.

This idea can get off of the ground. And so we managed to get the business off of the ground and we started working for things and we were building it up. And right before the pandemic, I Finally felt like, I hired these people. I'm going to be able to keep them on staff. Like, I'm going to be able to offer them benefits. Like, I was really intentional because, because of equality and pay. Like, there were certain things I couldn't do as a small business owner, but there were certain, like, I want to make sure you have benefits. I want to get us a 401k plan. Like, I don't want you to just hire and hire you and a struggle. And so right before the pandemic, I finally felt like I can take care of my team and still not worry about if my kids want to go to college. 'Cause I was praying at one point that y'all just decide you want to be artists and not go to school.

Right, right. And then the pandemic hit.

Or you're so smart you get scholarships. Exactly. And then the pandemic hit and I.

Felt like I was back in this space where I'm like, okay, I don't.

Know what we're going to do. Really? Yeah. When it hit, you weren't sure what you were going to do. Well, like, so I have a clothing.

Store and people aren't going anywhere. right.

Okay. And I'm a speaker and you can't speak anywhere. We're not speaking.

So how did you navigate that? Were you able to shift that to keep earning?

And so the good thing is that we were able, like I had savings, so it wasn't like I was completely in trouble. So I had enough time to pivot and we were able to pivot. Podcast was still going. I expanded the podcast. I used to do it in seasons. I'm like, okay, I'm going to do this weekly so that I can continue to have. I like that. okay. That's what I do. Yeah. So I can continue to have this stream. The clothing store continued to do well. Let's flood this subscription on demand Channel with content so that we can make sure we retain our subscription services. And then I did what was, like, probably crazy and doesn't make sense on paper, which is how I know it's a God thing, is we started giving money away to people who really needed it. Wow. People who had lost their job during the pandemic. Like, we would give money away to to four or five women a week for this one on for months. Like, you need help with your groceries, you need help with childcare. Like we were just giving money away because my faith, I don't know, now this is like some, you know, not necessarily make sense on paper. I just believe that if I took care of people, that God would take care of me. And so my mission became like, how can we take care of people? It doesn't make sense on paper. how we were able to still sustain it really literally doesn't make sense on paper. There were like some things like virtual speaking things came through where people were like, Hey, if you can do this, we'll give you that. And so, you know, there were some hits that were able to come through, but I'm not afraid anymore.

That's smart. I like that idea. When people have a negative mindset around money, how do you support them in that? Or do you talk about that in your ministry Shifting the beliefs around money that money is bad and evil or I'm not deserving of making money.

Yeah. So there are people who are much more qualified to talk about money, who I try to bring in to help us navigate money mindsets. But I do think at the end of the day, not having a strategy for your money is one of the major stresses. I have a friend, her name is Dr. Anita Phillips, and she talks about how, you know, the financial stress of life has a negative effect on our mental health.

Yes.

And so the strategy behind our money is something that I try to touch on, but I know that there are people who are just much more knowledgeable who I bring in to try and help our women as much as possible. Yeah.

What's the thing you're most proud of that most people don't know about you?

In another life, I was probably like a 1950s housewife. Like, I really, I'm really like someone who likes to create environment and that shows up in my home. So like, you know, if we have friends, like during the pandemic, you know, we're at home more. And that's when you realize like, okay, we need a table here. Okay, this girl don't have a dresser. She needs a dresser in her room. and things would come in. Not only did I order them, I will put them together.

Wow.

Like, I will put them together. We will have dinner on the table. I make, like, and this is not what I'm saying every woman should do by no means in my sight.

You enjoyed it.

I enjoy it. I make my husband breakfast. Like, okay, so I've been doing this tour, so I haven't made him breakfast this week. But every morning I make my husband breakfast. Dang. Like, every single morning.

I'm gonna come stay in the guest house.

You know what I'm saying? Let me get some of that. Four times a week, I cook dinner for my family. Like, we've been ordering in a lot this week 'cause the book launched and I asked them last night, like, what do you guys wanna order? My daughter's like, you,'re cooking. That's what we wanna order. 'Cause I mean, that's, I love taking care of my family. All I want, like, I really wanted to be a housewife. Like, I really wanted to just, like.

Create this environment for my family and I get to do it now. How do you balance it all? Of building businesses, managing team, preaching and doing the ministry work, touring, wife, mom, cook, HGTV personality. How do you do all of it?

I'm not all of those things at the same time. And I avoid instances that require me to be all of them at the same time. So right now, I am only the author of Woman Evolve. When we leave here, I am only going to be their wife and mom. and I think the idea of when I'm in something, I am 100% of who I need to be in that moment.

Yes.

And when I leave that moment, I close the door on it. I'm not going to rehearse what I should have said or should not have said. And it's over now. It is what it is. I'm moving on to the next thing because I can't live divided. I did that already. It didn't work out for me.

Yeah. The skill of being fully present, you said, is a, a masterful skill. I'm curious. You 13 when you had your child. What would you say to your 13 year old self right after the moment you got pregnant? If your 13 year old self was sitting where I'm at, what would you say? What did she need to hear from where you're at now?

Okay, so this is not an exciting answer, but it is true. I would not say anything. I would hug myself. like super, super tight. Maybe I would whisper, you,'re gonna be okay.

Wow.

But, you know, I think that that instantly kind of makes you like the social pariah. Everyone else is so wounded that no one really is thinking about the pain that you're in because you did this, right? So I would have held myself really, really tight. really, really tight and I just said, you're gonna be okay.

Wow. Was there a moment where you felt like you let go of that pain?

I don't know if it was a moment. Oh, there was a moment. Okay, I just shared this story recently and yeah, I can, if I like go back in time in my mind, I can still like tap into it, but I don't live with it as ever present as I did. I was still carrying the pain with me to a certain extent. I just stepped into my life with faith. So like you can step into your life with faith and still have pain about what it took for you to get there. And so even in accepting my life, I still just accepted, you know, this is a part of my story. There's pain there. That's fine. I'm moving on. But right before we went on our very first tour, I started having the 13 year old just started talking like, girl, you crazy. You cannot do this. Why would you do. Because the tour, like, we put the tour up and, like, it was at capacity, like, within days. Like, we did eight cities.

When was this?

2018. Right. 2018. Yeah. So we, you know, tickets at at capacity.

Gone. Sold out.

Gone. Wow. And then I'm like, why are people coming to hear you speak? Like, this is crazy. This is not a good idea. Like, what are you going to say? And I'm always naming things crazy, like, revolutionize your life. Like, that's a big thing to say. And I think this one was, like, wild woman. It's like, okay, so we're gonna turn all these women to wild women. So I was like, this was such a clown. This is such clown behavior from you. So I'm just, like, giving all of the words. I'm in his zone. And I just remember this person said something to me when I got pregnant, and they found out, they said, I always knew to expect something like this out of you.

And it was just like, oh, dagger.

Yeah, big time. Big time, because I didn't know what it was about me that I didn't know. I didn't know why they said that. And so I never trusted myself because of that. And so here I am in a moment again of distrust with self going on tour to empower other women. And it's like, who are you? You're the girl that got pregnant. And so I'm praying, I'm worshiping, because, like, at this point, I'm like, Lord Jesus, please help me. If you up there, big guy, I need you to talk to me. Okay, send a word down. And I was in that moment of worship, and I'm feeling really tender, really delicate, really vulnerable and fragile with this demand that is being made on me to, like, change people's lives. And I was just carrying all of that into the presence of God and into my meditation. And I just felt like God said, I always knew to expect something like this.

Oh, my goodness. That gave me the chills.

Wow. It was-- it's what I tell myself now when I'm walking into a moment that feels bigger than me. Wow. It's like, I always knew to expect something. looking like this out of you.

You're giving me the chills right now.

Yeah.

That is powerful.

It's the very thing that made me stop trusting myself.

Ooh.

Are the very words that make me step into a moment of extreme belief.

Mm.

That is like, that was the moment where it just, it couldn't hurt me the way that it did anymore.

Ooh, that's beautiful.

It changed, it changed, it changed everything.

It's kind of getting back to that self-talk and not allowing the words of other people to penetrate your self-worth, but you building it from within or listening to something greater and speaking from that, coming from that place. That's beautiful. Whoo, I want to talk forever with you, but I also want to respect our time and I've got a couple final questions. Before I ask the final questions, I want people to get this book, Woman Evolve. Break up with your fears and revolutionize your life. Big words, powerful words, but they're gonna support you in a big way, so make sure you guys check out this book. I say get a few copies for your friends, pass them out to people. It'll be worth it. Definitely pick up this book. This question is a question I ask everyone at the end called the Three Truths.

Okay.

So I'd like you to imagine a hypothetical scenario. It's your last day on earth, many years away from now. You get to live as long as you want to live, but then you got to turn the lights off at some point. And you accomplish all your dreams. have the life you want to have, your family does amazing, all the things happen. You write the books, you build the businesses, you change lives, whatever you want to do, it happens. But for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your messages with you. All of your books, writing, podcasts, videos, everything you've ever said has to go with you to the next place. So no one has access to your information anymore. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true. Three lessons that you've learned from your life, You get to write them down on a piece of paper and share this with the world and this is all they would have to remember your message by. What would you say are your three lessons or your three truths? Oh, goodness.

I get to take my time and think about it.

Go ahead.

Cut all of the dead air.

All again.

Okay. God is real. God is good. God is in you.

Amen. I love that. This is before I ask the final question. I want people to make sure that they follow you. Your Instagram is amazing. Lots of great video content there. I know the stuff you're up to there. So that's Sarah Jakes Roberts on Instagram. S Jakes Roberts on Twitter. Sarah Jakes Roberts on Facebook. YouTube as well. Sarah Jakes Roberts as well. And then is there a main website we should go check out for all the stuff you're up to, the members.

Area that you have, the ministry, everything else?

WomanEvolve.com They can get the book there. They can see everything you're up to, the tour, the clothing, the, all of that. Everything's there. Okay, WomanEvolve.com check that out. And your podcast is called... Woman Evolve. Woman Evolve, so everything. So subscribe to all these things. Check it out. This is powerful. And if you're watching on YouTube, make sure to leave a comment below with the biggest takeaway from this interview. This has been really inspiring for me. I'm really glad we got to connect. Before I ask the final question, Sarah, I want to acknowledge you for a moment for your gift and for your voice. and I've been getting the chills throughout this interview and usually it doesn't happen this frequently. So I really acknowledge you for the truth that you have inside of you and being 100% authentic to you are at this moment in your life. For living your life in service to other people, especially for women who don't feel like they have a voice and you sharing your voice and giving them tools and strategies and inspiration. We need more people like you, Sarah. So I'm very grateful for you. I acknowledge you for if you are. And I acknowledge you for making the changes when you didn't believe in yourself and you didn't feel like you were worthy of certain things. Because a decade of feeling that way can cripple some of us. And for you to say, okay, I'm in a dark place, but this isn't going to define the rest of my life. I can still make something more meaningful. It's really inspiring. So I acknowledge you for all the changes and all the beauty you're going to create in the world. in the future. And I'm really grateful I got to connect with you. So hopefully we can stay in touch and hopefully I can see you live someday from the stage. It'd be fun to watch you live. My final question for you is, what's your definition of greatness?

Daring to live vulnerably for the world to be inspired by and taught by. I think that's greatness. Living vulnerably, living vulnerably, like actually showing up and doing life vulnerably, loving vulnerably, working, creating from that place of vulnerability where validation would be nice but not necessary because my only option is to produce from in its place. I think that's greatness.

Sarah, thank you so much.

Appreciate you.

Thank you. This was fun.

Appreciate it. Powerful. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I truly am inspired by Sarah, the human she has become, the message she stands for, her mission, her vision, everything. Make sure to check her out over on social media. Make sure to get a copy of the book. Support her there as well and learn more about all the amazing things she's up to. I really loved her energy. her message. And man, this woman is doing some big things, so make sure to check her out. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe over to the School of Greatness on Apple Podcast or Spotify. Click that subscribe button right now and leave us a rating and review. I would love to hear your biggest takeaway from this episode. Leave it in that review section over on Apple Podcast. We picked some of our top reviewers of the week and share them throughout our newsletter, so make sure to share something that you would want us to share to our audience as well. And if you want inspirational messages from me sent to your phone via text every single week to keep you inspired and motivated, then text me the word podcast to my number 614-350-3960. And I want to leave you with this quote from Dolly Parton who said, if you don't like the road you're walking, start paving another one. It doesn't matter. The challenges, the pains, the struggles you've been through.

That's one road.

You can start creating and paving a new road for yourself. You don't have to be defined by your past, but you can use the past as a foundation to build the next road for yourself. You can always change. In this moment, you can start making different decisions, start thinking differently about yourself, start practicing better habits, and start building a better path moving forward.

You are so worth it.

Now is the time. It's time to step up, it's time to overcome these challenges and start moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one's told you lately that you are loved, my friend, you are worthy and you matter. And you know what time it is? It's time to go out there and do something great.