How to Know They’ll Cheat on You - Cheating Expert Reveals Warning Signs! - Neil Strauss
13 May 2024 · 94 min
In this extensive podcast episode, host Lewis Howes (Lewis AI) interviews author and former pickup artist Neil Strauss about cheating, relationship health, and personal transformation. Strauss shares his own experience of cheating, being caught, and the long journey of self‑work that included therapy, sex‑addiction rehab, and confronting childhood wounds such as enmeshment and abandonment. They discuss why people cheat, the cyclical pattern of betrayal, and how a relationship can recover only if the cheater fully owns responsibility and does deep inner work. The conversation expands to monogamy versus ethical non‑monogamy, highlighting that cheating occurs across relationship structures and that healthy relationships require emotional maturity, clear agreements, and ongoing communication. Strauss describes practical tools he uses with his partner—relationship agreements, nightly check‑ins, and a rule against challenging conversations in bed—to maintain safety and trust. He also explains the value of group therapy for men, the importance of recognizing enmeshment, and how early parental dynamics shape later relationship patterns. Throughout, the hosts emphasize self‑awareness, consistent personal work, and honest dialogue as the foundation for lasting intimacy. The episode includes several sponsor reads (Northwestern Mutual, Bank of America, Home Depot, etc.) which are peripheral to the core content.
Chapters
The reason I'm such an expert on cheating is because, well, I cheated, got caught. And I remember talking to Rick Rubin. He was. He's in the books, says not. He's the producer. He's like, you did all this for, like, sex. That wasn't that good anyway. Right, right, right. You know, that wasn't even a great experience. And, like, it wasn't worth it.
Yeah.
And so what's wrong with you? And it took a long time with.
Talking to him to.
To recognize something was broken in me.
Our next guest.
Became the world's greatest pickup artist. Former New York Times rock critic Neil Strauss, one of the most renowned and respected pickup artists in the world. Please say hello to Neil Strauss. Please welcome. Well, you know why you've never been in a relationship? You know why? And she goes, well, because your mom wants to be in a relationship with you. And then, like, as soon as she said it, wow. Like, logically, it made no sense. My whole body felt the truth of it. Felt it like I'll never, I'll literally never, that moment, like exact moment changed my life. When people lie, they think they're protecting the person or something, but they're not. They protect themselves from feeling uncomfortable emotions from that person.
Right?
They're like, I can't deal with your emotions, so I'm not gonna tell you what I'm doing in case you have an emotion that I'm uncomfortable with.
Wow. Do you have any signs that you can see if someone potentially would be a cheater that you're getting into a relationship with?
Totally. I mean, yes, totally.
Wow.
He has a great hack that I haven't heard other people talk about, but it's also affordable, powerful, and will change your life.
This podcast is sponsored by Northwestern Mutual. Everyone wants to feel good about their finances, right? Well, that's why I've had life insurance with Northwestern Mutual for years. Their financial professionals ask the right questions, truly listen, and help uncover opportunities most people miss. I've seen it firsthand. Northwestern Mutual has been a part of my journey from the very beginning, providing the security and peace of mind I need as a human and and an entrepreneur. Find a better way to money@nm.com, the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, paid testimonial by a Northwestern Mutual policy owner.
As America's leading business lender, Bank of America is on your corner and in your corner. With $215 billion in business loans and over 3,700 business specialists across the nation, we help businesses thrive. So communities prosper. What would you like the power to do? Learn more at bankofamerica.com/localbusiness. Bank of America, official bank of FIFA Club World Cup 2025. Copyright 2025 Bank of America Corporation, all rights reserved.
Father's Day is coming up, and for lots of dads out there, dad doesn't quite cover it. They're groundskeepers, patio whisperers, and rogue leaf vigilantes too. So this year, show dad some love with gifts from the Home Depot. They've got fast, free delivery on handy gear that helps dad do his thing. We're talking Ryobi cordless outdoor tools like the Ryobi 40 volt expanded string trimmer. Find the perfect Father's Day gift at the Home Depot. Shop in store and online at homedepot.com, free delivery subject to availability. Fuel your greatness with wonderful pistachios, no shells. Wonderful pistachios is a great source of protein with zero guilt. Each one ounce serving has six grams of protein. giving you over 10% of your daily value. Pistachios are known for their protein power, fiber, and better for you, unsaturated fats for a combination that may help keep you feeling Fuller longer. And now there's a new way to snack strong with unsalted no shells holding the salt, not the flavor for a snack that packs a protein punch. Visit wonderfulpistachios.com to learn more.
Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guests. We have the inspiring Neil Strauss in the house, my man.
So good to see you. Good again?
I think we met originally about 13-14 years ago. And one of the first interactions I had with you was at your house. You were doing an interview show with a number of porn stars. And since I've met you over the last 13-14 years, we've had a number of interactions. You worked on so many high level books, projects, podcasts. You, you know, were originally famous, I think, for writing the game. Then you wrote the truth. You now got a podcast that's about Russian spies on how women can manipulate men and persuade them to falling in love with them. You've had these wide range of topics and conversations that you've dived into for 20, 30 years. And I'm fascinated with your idea on relationships because really you're a person who understands relationships from all the journalism that you've done, the interviews, the books, the conversations. And the first thing I want to talk about is again, you went from the game to the truth. One was black, one was white. And I want to talk about cheating first because I think cheating is a hot topic right now in relationships, but also just hookup culture. I think people are in this world of hookup culture with social media. And I'm curious, do you think someone can be in a monogamous long-term relationship after they've cheated, first off. And also, from all the interviews you've done, do you have any signs that you can see if someone potentially would be a cheater that you're getting into a relationship with?
Totally. I mean, yes, totally. So that they're absolutely, they're absolutely signs. Before you say that, by the way, it's just so great seeing you because when we met all those years ago, I remember you were sort of looking for your place. I remember like you were sort of like, okay, I'm going to transition from like sports to sort of like doing something that helps other people. And I remember sitting on my couch and talking about that and really seeing like how much I really had this great feeling. I knew like this is gonna work out for him because you just have this quality besides greatness is like likability. You're a very likable guy and you communicate yourself with so much heart. I'm like, oh, that's he's like, gonna be creative. So it's been so fun to watch your career and check in over the years. Thank you. I appreciate it.
Appreciate it.
So back to the question, there were two questions. The first one was, can a relationship recover after cheating? And the second one is, what are signs to spot someone who would cheat? So the first answer is, a relationship can absolutely recover out of cheating, but not by someone promising not to cheat again.
Really? Right?
Because what happens is, There's a cycle that happens, which is someone, they get caught. They're not guilty about it till they get caught usually.
There's a pain, there's a wound, there's a trauma afterwards, right, from the other person.
And then the relationship they currently have is then threatened. They go get fearful and desperate of abandonment and they promise anything to get that safety and security again.
Interesting.
Once they get the safety and security again, they then rebel against it and cheat again.
Really?
Yeah, that's the pattern, right?
How many people would you say cheat one time in a relationship, repair, and then cheat again? What do you think that percentage is?
I guess I couldn't tell you the percentage, but they're saying, if only we want shame on you, if only we twice shame on me. However, being somebody like that short version of the answer is you can if you actually do the work to change. So in other words, if someone says, I cheated, I really need to look at myself and why I would do that to somebody I supposedly do love and care about and in a relationship with and are married to or live with or have children with. And I'm really gonna do the work on myself. and to really understand, first of all, they have to own it entirely, 100%. One important message about cheating is that it's so hard when you're cheating on to think, what did I do? Or what did I do wrong? Or it's my fault. Or you have nothing to do with it. There's nothing that is your fault that makes someone else act outside of their integrity. So we'll talk about the cheaty later. But they have to do the work, which is why do they do it? what was going on, what was the wound, and then actually do the real work to repair that wound to become whole again, and then relationship as possible. Flip side of that. So a partner, and I don't know if this is too much, because it's such a broad topic.
I love it.
So.
The cheater can repair and can really repair, but the relationship can still not work out, and this is because the person who was cheated on can experience, does experience what's called betrayal trauma. It literally is a trauma, being cheated on is a trauma and betrayal. And sadly, even though you're the victim in the situation, it's a trauma one that it's important to heal from. So a lot of times, how do you have forgiveness? Someone, how do you have trust again? You can't repair a relationship unless that trust is restored gradually over time.
Now you've had many, I mean, open conversations in your books and on interviews, you know, from the Game to the Truth and the Truth, you talked about how you were in an open relationships. I think you lived in a house at one point, was like everyone in a relationship with everyone type of thing.
Yeah, you were at that house. That was the same house. Right, right.
Where it was like a bunch of.
People lived together and just had, open love, essentially.
Yeah.
And because I think at one point you said, this is the way. And then you flipped it to no monogamy and intimacy with one person and commitment. That's the way. And then, you know, it's kind of gone back and forth. Where are you now in terms of relationships of what is a healthy, loving way to be in the best relationship possible?
Yeah.
I mean, I think to back it up, I really When I started writing the book the Truth, it's interesting for me, I started writing a book with a question and the book tells me the answer. Not saying because I started or I really thought, started writing the book thinking monogamy isn't natural, monogamy doesn't work. It's just there are all kinds of evolutionary reasons why that support this. But what I've actually found out, and I think this is 100% true of just about everybody, is that if you are not healthy in one kind of relationship, you won't be healthy in the other kind of relationship. So I found there are so many couples in, or throuples, or whatever you want to call them, in open relationships and polyamorous relationships that still cheat. Really? And I found it happens so often. But cheating might be like, okay, you can, there's some, just small rules, like just be protected, right? And they get carried away, they're not, you know, or don't do that, or this or that, or being honest. So I found that a lot of cheating happens the same, almost in all relationships across the board.
Even in open relationships, people still cheat.
There's a, yeah, they're still cheating or betrayal or this, and again, there are some that are amazingly healthy and great ones I've seen, but, and just like they're healthy monogamous relationships. But that said, I believe if you're not healthy in one kind of relationship, you won't be healthy in another kind of relationship. What I found was separate from monogamy, polyamory, you know, ethical non-monogamy, all those things, and just, get healthy and secure in yourself and any kind of relationship will work. That said, to have a healthy, non-monogamous relationship, it takes a lot more work on yourself in terms of communication and emotional maturity and all those sorts of things.
Do you know anyone in a 20, 30-year-plus open relationship? that have been together themselves, but are in an open relationship, that have a thriving relationship, healthy conscious relationship together, lots of love, lots of trust, have kids and have raised healthy conscious kids as well. Have you seen that?
I have seen it. Really? Yeah, I have seen it. And I think just, I think in a sense, I think that, let me start with this, there's actually a study on polyamorous families that showed, and again, I guess studies can show anything, right?
And people can prove what they want.
Exactly. I think there's even a study on studies that shows it just confirms the bias that the researcher had at the beginning, especially in psychological studies. But that said, that children born in healthy poly families grew up healthier because I think it actually makes sense if you have more loving caregivers. How great is that instead of just, Mom and dad.
Wow, that's interesting.
But the answer is the unhealthy version of an open relationship is when one partner wants to explore other partners, the other partner doesn't, but they don't want to lose that partner. So they're like reluctantly accept it. That's the unhealthy version.
But they don't really want it, but they accept it because they don't want to lose something.
Yes, so they just go along with it, even though it's against the way they feel.
Is that a lack of self-worth or a lack of creating boundaries in that person?
I think it comes from both sides. I think one side has a narcissism, right? It's the balance. One side is narcissism and the other side has the opposite, insecurity, and together that's how that dynamic works. So I think it's sort of on both sides versus a healthy one is, if you think about it this way, there's three entities in a relation or in, which is the person, one partner, the other partner, and then the relationship itself, or if there's more partners, you can do it. But the relationship itself, and if you, so if you're going to choose to explore, and I think, I really think that most, a lot of couples want to explore, there's just fears attached to that.
Yes.
Right. Just to, even just for a night or a weekend, like, but there's fears attached to that. So I think we should kind of remove those definitions, and I'll talk about that in a second, but. I think everything you do should be healthy for all three entities. So in other words, we're in a relationship, but like, I feel trapped. So I want to just go have another experience with someone else, and you're going to let me even though it hurts you? Well, that's not good for you or the relationship. So if you think about what can be good for all three, and if it's a yes or a green light, then go. Right, but it's got to be healthy for all three.
Right, exactly. And if it's not, then you're fracturing a part of the relationship.
Yeah. Right?
You're fracturing yourself or you're fracturing a relationship or the person you're with. So it's choosing out of a place of, you know, conscious integrity that is.
Best for all three, I guess. Well said.
That's good. But if one is against it, then.
You can't really choose that then.
Right, right. And you have to either accept that.
Or not be in the relationship, I guess, right? And the key, the other key is a lot of people want to explore outside because they're lacking something in their relationship. and like the smartest kind of polyamorous sort of experts that I spoke to said, and I think this is so true, your partner has to have an abundance of you before you test are with and then they're on that secure platform. But if you're like, this is turning out to work, maybe we should try some other things. Like that's going to go downhill quickly.
So why do you think, because not all monogamous relationships work out, right? People are not, happy after 20, 30 years, but they're monogamous, I guess. What do you think are the keys of a happy, healthy, monogamous relationship? What are each partner doing for themselves and for the relationship?
As a note, I think it's the same for all relationships. And the way I think about it, because it's funny when you ask the question, whether you're monogamous or this, and I think that a relationship should be a constant discussion and it can evolve. Like imagine you're just working a job and you're like, this job is never gonna change. Don't even discuss it changing. This is your job forever. But people grow and people change and you can have discussions. As an example, when I had that Sirius Radio show, the engineer, I think it was okay to share, his wife was going through menopause for several years. She said, you, know what? I feel bad. for you, like, I don't want to be touched. I want to think physical. You should go have some experiences and get that need met. And then she thought that was healthy for him. It was good for her because she wants him to be happy and it was good for the relationship.
Interesting.
So these things can change. So I think I like the idea of a relationship is just, I love you and I'm committed to you, and let's just see what's the most, what grows from there and is the most exciting for us.
Yeah, I think each individual focusing on their own happiness and the happiness of their partner and saying, how can we both be happy together? I think that's really key at the end of the day.
Yeah.
When do you feel like has been the most insecure time of your adult life and the most secure time of your adult life? In a relationship and out of a relationship. Can you think about those times?
Yeah, for sure. I think the, I think the most insecure time, the relation, again, I'm just being super, I don't think I really talked about this, but I think the most insecure time is probably right after my wife at the time had our first child. And I think I wasn't ready. I was really ready to be a good parent, all the stuff we know about trauma, healing, I'm like, this is the chance to right the wrongs of the previous generations before us and live what I talk about, but when I wasn't ready, for was how that affected our relationship.
Really?
And so I'd say the most insecure time was when all of a sudden, all of a sudden, for the next couple of years, any need, I'd say in my case, it was sort of, it was all very overwhelming for her combined with postpartum and the things that are going on with that, that just kind of completely disconnected And the relationship or yourself? The relationship, to the degree that I remember I was doing my podcast with the Missing Persons case.
To Live and Die in LA.
Yeah, yeah.
Incredible podcast.
I was getting a death threat from someone. And I was trying to tell her about it and she's like, Listen, I have no time for you. I'm like, But I'm getting, someone's trying to kill me. She's like, Just enough, what? I'm like, and because I'm recording everything, this is a podcast. I have it on tape, I didn't put it on the podcast, but I was like, Man, I'm like, but by the way, I think it's important to say that she was just overwhelmed in that capacity. It's not like she was just at capacity. And I think the toughest time for me then was having no space and so I'm not having no space. No space. So I think it's tough and I think it was something I wish hopefully for most of you who have children on the way or first or sometime in the future can prepare you for it is like, is that it's really hard on the other part. It's hard on both partners. You know, like, imagine going through postpartum.
Your identity is changing.
Yeah, your husband's still trying to run around doing exactly what he did before, and somehow it just feels, even though you can split the time exactly equally, I just think for the person who carried the baby, it feels like her responsibility. It's such a, I feel like, I'd love to see a book. I can suggest someone write it for, it's not about parenting, but about relationshiping after having kids. So that was the most insecure time.
Interesting. When's been the most secure time for you in your adult life?
Yeah, the most secure time. Same relationship right before the child. Really?
Yeah.
And this speaks to exactly your first question. By the way, thank you. I love this conversation because it's like, these are things I think about all the time. So, so it's so interesting to talk about, is that the reason I'm such an expert on cheating is because, well, I cheated, got caught, went to, not just to rehab, but really just made an admission. I'm like, whether this relationship works out or not, because of what I did, I want to be a better person who lives inside my own values system. And this is why would I hurt somebody who I love, who I care about, who I want to get married, who weren't married at the time. and just really, it took like a long time, it healed so much. We can talk about the steps I did or the things I did if helpful.
How long were you in the relationship for? Committed. And again, when was the first time you cheated within the relationship, I guess? How long after you were committed?
Yeah, we were probably, I want to say it was maybe about like a couple years and then maybe like nine months in or something like that. And it was like, and I remember talking to And it's in the books, it's not, to like my kind of friend mentor, to Rick, to Rick Riordan, he's in the books, it's not. He's the producer.
And the truth?
Yeah, and the truth, yeah. So he's like, you did all this for sex that wasn't that good anyway. Right, right, right, right. You know, that wasn't even a great experience and like it wasn't worth it. Yeah. And so what's wrong with you and it took a long time of talking to him to sort of recognized something was broken in me.
What do you think are the main reasons a guy or a girl might cheat?
Oh, I'd rather just to finish that second part of the question. So after I did all the work on myself, and this speaks to like the monogamy, like, and I got back in the relationship.
So you went to rehab.
Yeah.
And to kind of heal the wounds or the root cause of why you wanted to cheat or.
Yeah, and I think actually rehab is not enough. I literally think rehab should be a year long. But it's hard to sell, it's hard to sell if it's a year long. But it takes a long time to rewire those patterns. It does. It's been built up in our brain over 17, 18 years of childhood and then reinforced over another 10 or 20 years of adult living. So I probably went to several rehabs, like I really made it a project, almost like this podcast or a book we do or something. I made it. my healing is the most important project in my life. Wow. And so I really did and tried everything till what, what, what, what did.
You learn in, I guess, sex rehab or what's the rehab?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's called, like, yeah, it was, it was, it was like sex, sex addiction rehab or whatever. But a lot of it to me felt like a, maybe it's just splitting, calling it a nicer word, but it felt like an intimacy disorder. But what I learned there I'll tell you what I learned there. But just to finish the point was once I was back in the relationship, I felt so, I didn't need to look at people on so, you know, just little things like I felt so happy to be with her. I felt so committed, same person, I just changed. And then those three things, the relationship and she changes within that. So side note, if you want to change a relationship, something's wrong, the only thing you have control over is yourself. You change yourself. whole system changes and gets better.
Wow.
So that's literally like all you have to do to make your relationship better is actually change yourself and stop trying to get someone else to change.
Why is it so hard for people to want to look within and change the things about them that might be broken or that need improvement on? Why is it so hard for us to look in the mirror and say, I need to work on me.
A Force Inside and Out, the Range Rover Sport is available with a choice of powerful engines, including a plug-in hybrid with an estimated range of 53 miles. We all know that staying hydrated is so important, and we've heard it a million times. But let's be real. You can really feel the difference when you're hydrated properly. You're sharper, you're energized, and you're ready to go. And when you're not, well, you feel foggy, sluggish, just drained. And with the summer heat coming, staying on top of hydration isn't just a good idea, it's a must. And that's why I love Liquid IV. It's powered by live Hydra Science, which is clinically studied to maintain hydration better than water alone for up to four hours. And I've been loving the new sugar-free raspberry lemonade hydration multiplier. It's so refreshing. And I don't know about you, but if I'm not hydrated, it's hard to function. Whether I'm gearing up for a workout, recording a podcast, or pushing through a packed day, liquid IV always keeps me hydrated. And if you've ever hit that mid-afternoon slump or struggled to keep up, trust me, This is a game changer. Maximize your hydration with Liquid IV and get 20% off your first order of Liquid IV when you go to liquidiv.com and use code LEWIS at checkout. That's 20% off your first order with code LEWIS@liquidiv.com this is an advertisement from Better Help. You know, one of the biggest stigmas we still need to break, especially for men, is the idea that asking for help is weakness. In reality, it's the most courageous thing you can do. Taking care of your mental health doesn't make you soft. It makes you strong, focused, and grounded. We live in a world that puts a lot of pressure on men to man up, stay silent, and just push through. But bottling it all up only leads to burnout, anxiety, or worse. And the truth? It's okay to struggle. It's okay to not have all the answers. And there is real power in opening up. BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, helping over 5 million people get the support they need without the hassle of waiting rooms or long commutes. You can talk to a therapist from wherever you are and switch anytime if needed. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/Lewis. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com/Lewis.
Yeah, because it's so much easier to criticize someone else. It's so easy to look at all of Twitter, is people looking what's wrong with the world and everyone else, and then would they do better in that position? Probably not. They'd be defending their own behavior. So I think it's really hard and I've worked really hard on it to say I have no control over anyone else. And before I accuse anyone of anything, like how am I contributing here? What's my part in it? What am I doing? How am I engaging? And how am I trying to control for my own safety? All these types of things.
It's so hard to, I mean, grow up and have a perfect set of values that you're integrity with all the time. Especially if you've got trauma, wounds, psychological breaks from childhood that you never addressed. It's hard to carry those wounds into your adult life and then say, okay, here are my values. I'm going to stick to them at all times. I'm not going to lean into temptation. I'm not going to sway away from my commitments. I'm going to honor my word.
It's really challenging unless you do the healing work. and you can't do it alone because the hard I think there are other reasons it's hard is you can't see yourself. So there's nobody thinks they're a bad person. Like nobody actually thinks they're a bad person. And but some people do really, really bad things and justify it, right? They justify it by getting to a story of, well, they had it coming. They did this to me. That was wrong. And who even knows that those are factual? So like it's important to have someone qualified see from the outside thing pointed out and you need to be open to it. I have a hack for that. That's good because the other problem is healing is expensive.
It is.
We have this, like, expensive in health insurance. She doesn't cover it. It's really broken our whole mental health.
Model, and it takes time. Healing doesn't happen overnight or a weekend or two weeks in rehab. It happens. You might have aha moments during those times, but then it takes months, if not years, to rewire your brain to integrate the lessons, to process, to transform into a healthy version of yourself.
And so here's a great hack that I haven't heard other people talk about, but it's also affordable, powerful, and will change your life. That sounds like you can just clip that out. But here's a great hack, which is, and I did this and it really helped a lot, which is, Got a group of men in my community who were in the same place. Maybe they were just married, just had children, wherever they're at. And we decided to form sort of a therapy group. And if you get a bunch of guys together who are broken in their own ways to form a therapy group, it's not going to go well. And then we hired a therapist. To help all of you. Right, to help all of you. And so we think about it, even going to individual therapy can be expensive for some people, but it's five, six, ten of you. Hiring one therapist, you can all split that and afford it or pay as you want. We've been meeting every Monday night for what's now, like, I want to say it's eight years now. Wow. Same group of guys. And so when I walk in and I say, Hey, you know, I'm having this issue with my relationship or with work or something, I don't even have to finish the story. They're all like, Neil, that's you again. You're doing that same thing you did that time and that time. But the reason why it's powerful going back to us not being able to see ourselves is if I'm sitting with a one-on-one therapist or even just a friend and they have a critique or something to point out, I can just disagree. But if it's eight guys or eight of your people you respect, even if you disagree, you're the jerk in the situation. And all eight of them have this point, you can be like, I don't agree, but they probably got something there.
Interesting. So you can do that almost every week for like eight years.
Yeah, and I literally don't make any major decisions without discussing it in the group.
Wow. that's powerful. I really, I mean, I'm such a believer in either group therapy, one-on-one therapy, therapeutic experiences, week-long retreats to help you kind of reset, relook at yourself, reevaluate your values, where you're at in your life, and just try to get you on track to a better version of you. So I think it's really beautiful you're doing that. And I think in general, a lot of men don't have one friend that they can open up to and talk about their insecurities, their problems, their challenges. and it feels suffocating when you don't feel like you have the ability to just share or express your feelings.
Yeah.
So the fact that you're creating that commitment for yourself and other men is a beautiful thing.
And they'll say things that they maybe can't share with their partners or even with their best friends because there's that cone of trust in there.
Wow.
Yeah, it's really, it's really, I love it. So I really recommend that. And also there's something, our wounds happened in relationship.
Right?
The relationship with our parents, they're relational. And so we can heal them in healthy, trusting relationships as well.
Interesting. So our wounds happen in relationships and the only way to heal them is through relationships, it sounds like.
Yeah. Interesting. And I was interesting, the other thing for, I think a lot of people will be precious about what they do to help themselves. Like, I'll give you one caveat, but I think anything you do with that has the intention of healing you is not gonna hurts. I'll talk about a couple exceptions to that obviously. But you know what I mean? If someone's going to say if there's a therapy and it's, I don't know, surrounding you, anything that's any, as long as A, like obviously there's, there's a, you know, that the person running it isn't toxic, dangerous, abusive. And then B, there is a certain segment of just a warning. There's a certain segment of self-help improvement courses that are mind-blowing, phenomenal, amazing. However, they also try to get their members to recruit for them. So if you're ever, some people are mad at me for saying this, and it's been forever doing a course and part of the idea of improving yourself is going to get other people to join the course. You know, get people to join courses if you love it, but if it's sort of a compulsion or part of the education, it's beware.
Beware for sure. What were the three main takeaways you got from sex rehab or intimacy rehab?
Yeah, I mean, I think the big takeaway, and this actually goes back to your second question you asked, I love that we have so many. So that goes by the second question, but how can you identify a cheater ahead of time? So the big takeaway, and I'll never, the big takeaway was understanding the idea of enmeshment, which I didn't understand. What is enmeshment?
Do you know what it is or.
Are you saying it's a thing?
No, what is it?
Yeah. Okay. There's generally like three types of parenting. There's healthy parenting, which is a parent takes care of a child's needs. And obviously a parent can't take care of all the child's needs because children are so needy and wherever they sort of miss a need or especially consistently miss a need or one time dramatically miss a need, that creates the wounds that we're talking about as trauma. Then we all know about abandonment, which is a parent's-- we actually don't know as much about-- I think People think abandonment is a parent physically not being there, but a parent can also be a parent emotionally not being there. A parent can literally be present all the time and just emotionally checked out. And that creates the same kind of abandonment. Abandonment can also be, by the way, if you're really young and a parent passes away, that has nothing to do with you. But when you're that young and a little bit of, you know, it feels like, why is that parent not there? You know, even sometimes having surgery, having an operation when you're young or something like that, your parents left you with someone who then cut into you and caused you pain. Like, why weren't you protected? So there are a lot of things that are actually come from, that are out of the parents' control, it can come from love or protection that can still land these wounds. I think it's important, people often think it's blaming the parents, but it's just understanding ourselves. Yeah, okay.
The second thing you said?
Oh, so the second thing, so there's the, there, is enmeshment. Enmeshment is if abandonment's when a parent doesn't take care of the child needs, enmeshment is when the child takes care of the parent's needs.
Right?
A lot of people can relate to that, I think.
Yeah.
Like they had to grow up too fast. The parent was throwing their baggage on them, their problems on them, saying, oh, you're a lifesaver. You're so strong for me. You know, all these different things.
Yeah.
And so, and why it's so hard to catch, I don't know why I just got the chills for some reason, because it's so, what's so interesting about it is it doesn't feel like trauma, because abandonment is like disempowering. We feel like, why don't I matter? If that parent cared about me, they'd be there, or they'd not just like divorce and then never see me again, except for like twice a year, like, them and why, what's wrong with me? But so it's disempowering, whereas enmeshment is falsely empowering. like, look at me, I'm taking care of dad, look at me, I'm taking care of mom, look at me, dad realizes, look at me, mom realizes, look at me, I'm special, look at me, like, look at me, like, you know, so, so you feel you're, you're being sort of elevated, so it doesn't, it's harder to recognize this trauma, and that's why it's lesser known. Wow. And those people, by the way, this will probably hit it like a chord for some people, people who are enmeshed and they get into relationships, they like, tend to date people they can help or save.
Really?
Like projects. And then what happens is they date someone they want to help and save because that's how they get their worth and value.
Right?
Because that's how they got it from mom or dad.
Right, exactly. That's my job. Like if I don't have a job, then I'm not lovable. Right? And then what happens is that after a while they can't really help save, change that person and they start to resent like they did with their parent and then push them apart and cheat or act out like they feel trapped. Wow. Yeah. Wow. And they might act out in some other way. It doesn't have to be right, right, right. It can be some other inductive, both and behavior. Man, that's interesting.
There's a big book out there. I can't remember the name of it. I think it's something like adult children of emotionally immature parents or something like that. I love that.
That's too.
I don't know if you've seen that, but I see it out there. I gotta check it out. But it sounds like, you know, being raised by a parent who was emotionally immature, that you had to grow up and kind of be the parent to your parent. And the wounds and the traumas that that causes. Of those three, which one did you experience the most growing up?
Oh, for sure, enmeshment. That's why I was, yeah, that was the big takeaway in rehab when all of a sudden I literally thought as a journalist and a writer, I thought I was the same person who wrote about the the extreme people who were unhealthy. And because for most of us, our childhood just seems normal because we had nothing to compare it to. That's just normal. That's how it's done. Right? So once I was there, and as we're talking, I saw my child from the outside. I remember the therapist pointed it once she pointed out the patterns, it was like all of a sudden everything made sense.
Really?
Yeah.
What was that like the first time you were able to see little Neil in front of you?
Yeah, I think that, I think that, and I love that, you know, because you've done the work, we're talking about little me, we have a, it's true that just to speak to what you said, we have that inner child that feels that when it recognizes someone familiar, takes over and gets in the driver's seat and all of a sudden we're not in control of our own lives. and so. So, yeah, I remember the first time I really didn't expect that. I was super cynical, like, rebellious, you know, like. Like. And. And then when she pointed out the patterns and said, well, you know why you've never been in a relationship? And I'm like, no, why? And she goes, well, because your mom wants to be in a relationship with you. And then, like, as soon as she said it, wow, like, logically made no sense. My whole body felt the truth of it. Like, I felt it, like, just. I'll literally never, that moment, that exact moment changed my life.
Wow. So you had the aha in that moment.
Yeah.
But healing didn't happen right away. It probably took a little time to kind of process and integrate it, right?
I think the hardest part of healing is having the awareness and still doing the same stupid stuff. Right, right, right. Because man, awareness is just the first step, right? once you have awareness, now you have to actually do the work together. Like, I have awareness, I have this goal, but the awareness doesn't get to the goal.
Why do you, you mentioned, you wanted to kind of write about, interview, and do journalism on the weirdest or most extreme types of people. Why do you think you were fascinated with the most extreme personalities in the world for the last 20 years?
Well, you guess from what we just talked about. Just put the puzzle pieces together. See if you just give it a quick shot.
I don't know, it sounds like you were trying to learn about extreme personalities because you didn't feel emotionally safe or you didn't feel like you had safety growing up in some way from the relationship you had with your mother, it sounds like. And you were trying to make your life more normal by interviewing or learning about extreme people and their personalities.
And who is the extreme person I grew up with?
Your mom?
Yeah, so yeah, so thinking, yeah.
And you were trying to make her feel normal by looking at, well, there's got to be more extreme people out there, so my mom can't be that extreme.
Right, and by the way, at that time, and I think that there's a lot of accuracy to that, I think I didn't see her as extreme because I didn't know any other moms.
Exactly.
So, I think what it is was enmeshment makes you great, were you enmeshed at all? The mom and all?
I felt, I was the youngest of four. And my brother went to prison when I was eight. So from eight to twelve, it was just kind of like scarcity survival feelings, you know, for a number of years, 'cause we would go to the prison to visit him on the weekends for visiting hours. It was just a lot of trauma and sadness and shame. And so I didn't feel like I had the attention towards me because it was my older siblings, my brother, It was just us trying to get through this time of sadness.
Right.
So, by the way, it's interesting you said that because one of the signs of the meshing is not like, oh, I'm taking care of mom sometimes or dad. Sometimes it's like if mom is or dad are sad or depressed, and that.
Can be... Yeah, they didn't have a loving relationship either. So there was just no love between them. So it was always just kind of insecurity, fear. When are they going to scream at each other? It was just like uncertainty constantly.
One cell phone message is kind of mom or dad, they feel bad, you don't want to bother them with your needs. So if you feel sorry for a parent, that's usually a good message.
Interesting.
Did you feel sorry for when your parents or now out of curiosity?
Man, I was just like, I felt sorry for myself.
That's a smart move.
I felt like, you know, I'm stupid, I have no friends, I'm not enough. I felt just like very insecure, you know, and I didn't feel the love I know they loved me and they showed moments of love, but it was hard for me to feel it.
Right, I think, yeah, it sounds like abandonment stuff.
Yeah, I felt, yeah, and I was dealt with sexual abuse, which you know about that, when I was five from a man that I didn't know. So it just had like a lot of uncertainty and like, what's gonna happen next? There'd be screaming in the house, there'd be fighting, there'd be a disconnection feeling between my parents.
So just didn't know what's gonna happen all the time.
Yeah, it's like hyper vigilance. Yes, yes.
Yeah.
So it just. Yeah, it fractured my personality.
Yeah.
And it took years to heal.
Yeah.
So it drove me probably just like you. It drove me to, like, how do I be the best I can be and how do I win and how do I get girls to like me and how do I make money? And it's like, how do we become significant?
Yeah.
In society.
But it also, like, wanted and accepted and seen 100.
Yeah.
And love and love and loved and safe, but. no amount of success, money, girls or fame made me feel more loved.
Yeah, of course.
And so about 11 years ago, I started going through my own transformation, healing journey, you know, events, therapies, workshops, meditation retreats to reclaim the inner child and create safety within myself. And that, you know, has been a 10-11 year journey of different waves of emotions and healing and then regressing and then healing and, you know, ups and downs. And I finally feel like I'm in a extremely emotionally safe place with myself. I feel like the adult me is on a conscious, healthy journey to. To take care of the little me inside of me.
Yeah.
And it's a constant relationship with the two to be my word to my younger self. to acknowledge my younger self for. For carrying me all the way to this moment.
Right.
For loving and accepting myself. But also, it's like just really doing the work like you talked about from, you know, I guess, sex rehab. It's like being committed to the daily practices and work where I can align with my vision and values for myself and the effort that I'm putting in consistently.
Yeah.
Not trying to be perfect, but being consistent. and that journey gives me peace. The effort gives me harmony. It makes me feel grateful and abundant as opposed to beating myself up or talking negative to myself or saying, oh, you could be doing better. It's like, yes, I want to improve, but not from a negative place. And that's been a beautiful journey.
Yeah, and I love that you said, it really is. I think a lot of people like this pretend like it's, and again, Even some stuff I send may appear that way, but it really is a back and forth thing. I mean, I think of healing like the half-life of radiation, like you're cutting in half and half and half, but it never goes away entirely. And I love, I want to say, I'm going to elaborate this again. It goes back to what we were saying in the green room back there before, is I get excited When I backslide. Really, why? Meaning that, like, I'm like, there's something to learn here. Okay, there's something I gotta work on here. Like, so it's just easy to beat yourself up when you backslide and go into reactive mode, shutting down, or kiddo ego, whatever it is. And it's easy just to be like, all this healing's for nothing. I'm just right back here where I was before and how I know it. But, I had, it's really about how quickly you recover from it. It's not about never backsliding or never getting in a reactive place again. It's about how quickly when it happens, can you go back and recover to your healthy, and dealt, functional self? And then I'll go back and look at it and say, okay, what was going on? I'll try to look at it this way. What was the stimulus that I received? Right? Then what was the behavior that I had? Then this is the key question. What was the belief that was underneath it that drove the behavior? Because literally so often, like I grew up with a very critical mom, right? So it explains a lot of self-esteem issues. And so if I get, you know, Ingrid was my ex-wife and best friend. if she criticizes me, I might take it more personally. And I might be like, you,'re always criticizing me or something. I'm like, wait, maybe it's a fair, maybe what she said was actually just factually accurate. So, but in my brain, I'm like, well, what's my belief? Where does that come from? And as soon as you can make it not about the other person, then you have a shot of healing. And then the other key thing I'll think about afterward is how did I feel after it, afterward? So, you know, often when someone's is in a reactive state, and some people act in, a lot of people act in, some people act out, some act in. How do I feel afterward? Was it usually shame?
Exactly.
And so try to look at those pieces and then figure out, is there a lie I'm telling myself that I need to intervene on? Like you were saying about your childhood, I don't matter, like, you know, I don't fit in. Like, all those things you were saying were all, when you say it was adult, they're not true. They're just lies. And you have to intervene. When you talk about being consistent, that was a great word you said. You have to intervene on the lies. Like right away, as soon as they happen, you have to tell yourself the truth.
Yeah.
Not an affirmation, because I think some affirmations are in other forms of lies. It's like a spiritual bypass. Right, right, right. But if you say, as an example, Here's a small intervention I'll do is like, let's say when I first moved to LA and started driving, my friends would call me Kirby because I always hit the curb when I was trying to park. So maybe I'm trying to hit the curb, I'm like, I'm such an idiot. Right? That's not true. No, that's not true. And so, but the truth is, I'm still learning to drive and I made a mistake. Exactly. So you can just, you can not, you don't say I'm an idiot instead of saying, no, I'm a super powerful you know, human being, which is great too, but it's nice to just actually correct it with the actual fact.
Yeah.
I don't know if we answered this.
Yet, but I know one of the questions we have.
I wanted to ask you about if you're entering a relationship, what are the signs that you might be entering a relationship with a potential cheater?
Maine, where life the way it should be transforms all who encounter its spectacular landscapes. Rugged coastlines, pine-scented trails, sandy beaches, sparkling lakes, and tranquil forests inspire you to reflect and make meaningful moments. They offer endless opportunities for adventure and exploration. Whether pedaling or paddling, hiking or biking, Maine has more than enough outdoor spaces to make the most of long summer days. Relish in exquisite flavors harvested from the ocean and the rich soils of orchards and fields. Maine's makers are rooted in its heritage while boldly branching into new ways of thinking, doing, and being. Connect with its people in warm and authentic towns, which beckon you to stroll art galleries and locally owned shops, where generations of artists, writers, entrepreneurs, and craftspeople see the world anew. It's tempting to do it all when you visit, but take a beat and a breath. Get a feel for the time and tempo of Maine. Simple pleasures, Scenic Adventures, where every route is the scenic one. Discover more at visitmaine.com Haven't you heard? The newest fashion trend is finding clothes that feel good and last. And that's where Quince comes in. Their lightweight layers and high quality staples will become your new everyday essentials. Quince has all the things you actually want to wear, like organic cotton silk polos, European linen beach shorts, and pants that work for everything from backyard hangs to nice dinners. Everything I have from Quinte is such good quality and it's so comfortable. And the best part, everything with Quinte is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quinte gives you luxury pieces without the crazy markups. And Quinte only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. Stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from Quince. Go to quince.com/Lewis for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com/Lewis to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/Lewis.
Yeah, so I think it's a few signs are, obviously, if they cheated before and haven't healed, But I think it goes back to the paratag. So it goes back to the enmeshment. Like I tend to find, as an example, I was somewhere in the makeup artist was working with me, she was talking about she's never had like a relationship cheats all the time. I'm like, what's your relationship with your dad like? She rolls up her sleeve and it says like, Daddy's girl on her sleeve. Oh my gosh. And I'm like, okay, because nobody's like your dad. So, you know, and so I think I think, and I don't want to say like never date someone who's enmeshed, but you can actually see that if someone is deeply enmeshed by a parent, and sometimes people are still taking care of the needs of their parents, and it's different if your parent is ill or something like that, but if your parent is just calling you every day for everything.
Just a victim.
Right, right, and just relying on you just for their own mental for their own, just to get through each day, often what will happen in a relationship after some period of time is they'll start to feel smothered by their relationship and then act out for their freedom. And again, it doesn't have to be sex or cheating, but it doesn't mean, oh, they're going to cheat 100%, but you can say, oh, this is something and just see if they're aware of it and working on it.
Would they numb themselves and in drugs or alcohol to numb the feelings of being stuck or trapped and then they're neglect the relationship, they're not present, they're not intimate, vulnerable, whatever it might be.
Right, right.
They distance themselves some way.
Yeah, they have to distance themselves in some way because they're not suffocated.
Right.
And literally, I remember when I was, they just, just being with one person and dealing with their neediness and they usually choose someone needy as a partner.
Right, right.
Can be a big deal. I think it's interesting when We talked about cheating and I just think.
When.
It comes to cheating, it's someone being afraid to be honest in a sense that like I realized afterward is you're making your partner, people who cheat often think, my partner is not letting me do this. They don't allow me to do this. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna take care of myself because they're not letting me. Like they get in this victim child position to their partner. But the truth is you can literally do anything you want and your partner can respond to it how they want to. So you can literally just say like, hey, you know, I met someone today and I would love to go sleep with them and you can say, cool, you can do that. I don't think I can still be in a relationship with you afterward, but go enjoy yourself and thanks for letting me know who you are, right? Like I think, I actually think we'd be healthy if you can, and then would you still cheat with that person given that choice? But you kind of wanna, yeah. And then people think, well, I don't wanna hurt the person, so I'm not gonna tell them what I'm doing, but you're actually, when people lie, and I'm jumping like to a thought, but I think it's important, which is when people lie, They think they're protecting the person or something, but they're not. They protect themselves from feeling uncomfortable emotions from that person.
Right?
They're like, I can't deal with your emotions, so I'm not gonna tell you what I'm doing in case you have an emotion that I'm uncomfortable with.
Yeah, I think they're probably also hurting themselves the most because they're out of integrity with their commitments or their word to their partner, their wife.
Totally. And you're lying, you're not even in a relationship. You're lying in bed next to your partner in this secret world that they don't know about. And that's also important thing to say is what is cheating? Cheating to me is break acting outside the rules that you have established for your relationship. Meaning that if someone's like, you can't watch pornography, guess what? You watch porn, you didn't sleep with somebody, you'd have an affair, but you broke the rules and that's cheating. You can't take a, you know, exchange phone number, whatever. First of all, Rules should be stated. A lot of times people start dating and they have these assumptions, but you haven't agreed on the rules. And secondly is you don't have to agree to anything you don't want to. It's a consensual thing. No one's making you not do that. You're choosing to do it because it's.
Important to your partner.
Yeah.
I think that's beautiful with my fiance Martha and I. When we got into a committed relationship, we were dating for a few months, but then we entered a committed relationship. one of the things I requested was to start the relationship in therapy. And I said, I've always.
Oh man, you're the keeper right there.
Because I'd had five, I'd had five.
Or five or six kind of, you know, year to three year relationships for the last 20 years, right, since I was in high school or college or whatever. And all of them ended in therapy.
Right.
And they didn't end, you know, typically well. I tried to end them well. I tried to like make them work. and I was the one who was always requesting to do therapy. This was the crazy thing. I don't know if this is something wrong with me or me choosing a certain type of personality. I would always say, let's do therapy. Let's try to find a way to make this work. And the people that I was choosing to be in relationships with never wanted therapy. They resisted it. It was almost had to beg them for like six months to a year to be like, something's not working. I'm trying to improve. I'm trying to do what you want me to do. It's still not working. Can we go to therapy? And they didn't want to go. and so we would finally go and then it would end, right? And it wouldn't end well. They weren't happy that we went to therapy. And I never understood. So I was like, I'm not entering another relationship. I'm happy to be single for as long as it takes. And I'm not entering another relationship unless the person is willing to work on themselves and create agreements in therapy together in a conscious way from the start. And Martha right away was like, Yeah, man, let's do this.
Yeah.
And for the right person, that's like such a value add.
It's amazing. So when you talk about rules, we created agreements early on. Like every time we did a session, we were like, okay, we're experiencing a little discomfort here or friction here. Can we create an agreement around this? So that we both know where we're at. And just make sure we're going in the right direction. Otherwise, let's get out of this thing early. You know, it's like, why wait two years and just have all these chemicals connecting and not talk about our values, our vision, our lifestyle, kind of our agreements and make sure we're aligned. And so it has created a lot more peace and harmony in the relationship by creating that. And it doesn't mean everything's perfect every moment, but it's creating more safety.
One thing I love, I love to have so many thoughts on what you said, but one thing I love someone said, and I haven't been able to do it, I think I liked, I think it's a way better way to, they said we have intentions. Not rules, I think intentions. What's one of your agreements?
One of the agreements was like, I don't know, within the first year, and it's like little things could turn into big things, right? You know, it's like a little thing where like, oh, maybe it's not that big of a deal, but it can be if it happens every other month.
For sure.
One of them was like, within the first year, you know, she would want to talk about something challenging at night. like we get into bed, I'm ready to fall asleep. I'm exhausted. You know, it's 10, 11, 12 o'clock, whatever. I'm like winding down mentally, emotionally, physically, and then she wants to start a conversation. And it's not like a light conversation. It's like something that takes time and energy and presence for me. And a couple times this happened where it's like, all right, we're up until 3 A.M. 4 A.M. talking about these things, and I want to be there to support her, right? It's not that I don't want to talk about these things, but I'm like, listen, this doesn't work for me anymore. Having these conversations like after 10:00 p.m. do not work because I want to show up fully for you and I can't show up fully to be present. So I have to wake myself back up.
I have to turn the lights on.
I have to sit up at like 1:00 a.m. and try to like look you in the eyes, be open body position, be present with you, open my heart when I'm like falling asleep.
Right.
So The agreement was no challenging conversations when we're in bed. Like we talk about what we're grateful for, we talk about lighter things so that we can go to sleep.
Yeah.
And we can talk about them tomorrow.
And everything's gonna be okay.
Yeah.
And so we created that agreement in therapy together and it has created so much peace.
It's for both of us.
Yeah, and I think it's really understanding too. People have different processing styles. Yeah. She might want to process everything right away.
Exactly.
In the moment. Maybe accepting that you waiting a little bit to your present is going to help her process it better versus getting re-wounded by you not being present.
Exactly. And then we're both exhausted the next day and more resentful the next day. We didn't solve this thing.
Right.
So it's like, let's just talk about it over dinner. Let's talk about it when we're both awake, when we're both still have energy.
And if not, then we'll wait till the next day. We'll talk about it then. There's one little tool I love that I use. I call them, I guess, check-ins. I don't know. So I realized that sometimes in a relationship, you can start to stop, you can start to just grow distant without meaning to by not talking about certain things, especially things that might be uncomfortable with each other. So I started doing this every other night. It was in bed, but earlier. And you're going to start. And I kind of recommend this as it's great for relationships. It's a check-in. Here's how it works. shares everything uninterrupted of what's going on for them. Then afterward, the other person can share everything of what's going on for them. And the deal is you just listen, don't interrupt the other person, and you also don't defend yourself, right? If they're like, you know, I was frustrated. And sometimes you hear everything versus reacting right away, you'll see that it's not about you.
Right.
One big key, this is the hardest thing for people to do, but the most important thing to do, whether work or relationships, it's so hard it's just not to defend yourself. Very hard. As soon as you defend yourself, someone shuts down from telling you their truth. Very challenging. And even if they're wrong, if I'm like, listen, Louis, when I walked in here, you were so disrespectful to me. I walked in and you were busy doing other stuff and I haven't seen you in so long. Let's just say it's that, and we know that's not what happened. You were nothing but awesome when I walked in. you can say like, so what was your experience of that? Like what was it like for you? Did that hurt? Was that hard for you without ever validating that reality as being yours? And so you can just let them say everything about it well, how they felt, and once they feel emptied and complete, you can say, I'd love to share what my experience of you was when you wanted, and I just want to share my reality with you. And so you can actually, it's like, it's the most beautiful thing to really hear someone out when you don't disagree and you never need to agree with them or say it's right. But what is right is that those were their thoughts and feelings. Those are facts that they were their thoughts or feelings, whether a camera would have seen those same actions or not.
Yeah, but it's how they were feeling. It's their interpretation.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love relationships. I literally think so many people think they're healthy till they get into a relationship. Right. And it's like, so I think, like, once you're in a relationship, going to therapy, doing that work is like, it's two people growing together. It's beautiful.
Well, the thing I think I, you know, I don't, I would, I recommend it to everyone, but I know not everyone's going to do this because it's like completely opposite of what people would want to do is start a relationship in therapy. But I've, for me, my highest currency is inner peace and harmony.
Yeah.
And to have and be harmonious and to create peace inside of me, means having uncomfortable conversations consistently. It doesn't mean like never having challenging conversations. It means being willing to go there and having the courage to communicate and listen when you, ah, that doesn't feel that good. But communicating it gives me more peace. And the consistency of it is supportive for us. But even I respect her so much more because I know she wants to continue to evolve and grow. It doesn't mean we have to do it every week or every month even. It's just we're committed to each individually growing. And for me, I value that a lot. And it creates more peace in the relationship. Great. I mean, doing it ahead of time.
Before there are problems. But as you said, like with all your relationships, most people the time you're in therapy dealing with a problem, it's almost-- It's challenging.
It's hard to make it work, right?
By the way, I love what you said. It was interesting, I just had a thought on what you were saying earlier, which is, dated these people who won't go to therapy. And then you said later, because I wasn't doing what they wanted me to do. I think the key of why tell me this story.
And then I would stay with them and try to change myself to make them happy.
Because I think the idea was like, for them, tell me if this is right, I don't know them. But for them, control was safety.
Probably, yeah. Yeah, yeah, they wanted to control me.
Yes. And so if they can't bring a therapist in the mix, who might ruin their control over you. 100%.
I think that's what happens.
100%.
Because when we do the, it's funny, because when we go to therapy, the.
Therapist, and I always say, you choose the therapist, right?
Like, you choose who you like, I.
Will go to anyone. Right.
Because I'm willing to open up and.
Reveal and talk about anything.
And the therapist would be like, okay, yeah, you shouldn't be doing that to the, you know, the previous partners I had, like, this is like a better way of going about it.
And here's how you can look at.
But also they would criticize me for what I needed to work on. And I was like, cool, tell me more. What do I need to do? But the other people didn't want to look themselves in the mirror based on what the therapists were sharing. And I don't blame these women, you know, I accept them for who they are and I just chose out of a wound these types of personalities. And so again, it's not me blaming anyone and saying, oh, they didn't want to go to therapy or whatever, it's me looking within and having to say, why did I repeat this pattern consistently? And why did I stay in this pattern? Why was I unwilling to heal from certain traumas? Or why did it take me so long? And so...
I don't think you're being blamey or dictatorial about it.
No, no, no. Yeah, yeah. It's just looking myself in the mirror and saying, okay, I chose... A lot of my relationships I chose out of, you know, chemical reactions over actually communicating.
Values, vision, and lifestyle. or maybe being lost in your family, you're like, and they think, just someone tell what to do and how to be. Maybe you're, I'm just throwing this out there, but look at your whole, your whole, like, life is like, let me be around parental figures who can tell me, yeah, for sure. Who can be healthy parents and tell me good things. And some of you are choosing someone to, to give you some of the structure.
I know. Even if it's unsafe, it's still like.
Someone trying to control or something. So. Yeah. Anyways. And also. Yeah. And then, like, How can I be better? How can I be better for you? How can I, you know, and then eventually, like, you realize that it's actually not about you. It's not, yeah. I think it's so interesting. So many, there are a lot of partners who, just like you were saying about self-esteem, right? I'm trying to get it from, you know, work, career achievements. Some people are like that with, that they're trying, so you try to get your self-esteem. I'm just trying to think, because I'm, some people try to get their self-esteem. from the outside world just as some people try to get their safety from their relationship partner. And then they're like, if you did, then the relationship partner starts like, okay, I have to do this, this and that to make you feel safe, and I didn't call you that thing, and you're not safe, and all of a sudden, like, it just, that's the most, it can be a real toxic dynamic. 100%. And then you eventually realize, and it breaks up when the other partner realizes.
Oh, nothing I'll do will make you feel safe. Nothing. Nothing.
Yeah.
But how much I change who I am and change my behaviors, they're never gonna feel like it's enough.
Yeah.
And it's exhausting.
It sucks the life out of you. Yes. And I repeated that so many times. It's like, why did it take me so long to learn this lesson? But I think the lesson's gonna keep coming to you until you're willing to.
Make a change and heal. And the ironic thing is that's often when people cheat, because they're like, oh, I feel like the life's getting sucked out of me. I just wanna be somewhere where I just feel free and I can connect with myself again. Yeah.
Yeah.
That's interesting. I think I really think, like, I really think that that like just relationships are so hard and our culture does not raise us to have that right. We just see movies and TV shows and Instagram, all these things where we're just told how they're supposed to be and we develop this fantasy and we don't get any tools.
I know. Well, I'm glad you're teaching these tools right now. I want to pivot a little bit.
Yeah, I know. We can talk about this.
This is fascinating.
It's a great, such a good subject.
But I want to use part of the subject we've talked about into this next topic, which is, I think one of the most interesting things about you. I don't think anyone in the world has the experiences you have in terms of interviewing, diving into the world of and researching the world's most extreme personalities from at the top of their game, I guess, from, you know, musicians, porn stars, FBI spies, Russian spies, and everywhere in between. You've dived into these worlds of unique personalities that have learned a unique set of skills around charisma, persuasion, manipulation, lies, creating fake personalities, and literally transforming themselves to get anything they want from anyone else. And you have a new podcast that I'm so excited about. It's called To Die For, where you essentially immerse yourself in a number of conversations with a female Russian spy who learned how to make men fall in love with them so that they could get information and ultimately hurt them in big ways. And I'm curious, what have you learned from all these different personalities about manipulation, persuasion, influence that they used for evil that we could actually start to use for good.
Yeah.
Well, let's think about that for a second because first of all, I would guess that a spy thinks they're using it for good. So if you take the case of the woman in the podcast, the Russian spy, she was kind of brainwashed to believe you're serving your country. You know, you're, you're, these are bad people. And by doing this, you're doing, using this for good. So I don't think-- you-'re doing a.
Service for your country.
Right, so it wasn't till later when she gets out of the country and sees all the horrible things and is sort of, they do that she realizes that she's willing to talk about it now because it wasn't good and she was brainwashed.
And what was some of the things that this woman that you have on this podcast series.
Maine, where life the way it should be transforms all who encounter its spectacular landscapes. Rugged coastlines, pine-scented trails, sandy beaches, sparkling lakes, and tranquil forests inspire you to reflect and make meaningful moments. They offer endless opportunities for adventure and exploration. Whether peddling or paddling, hiking or biking, Maine has more than enough outdoor spaces to make the most of long summer days. relish in exquisite flavors harvested from the ocean and the rich soils of orchards and fields. Maine's makers are rooted in its heritage while boldly branching into new ways of thinking, doing and being. Connect with its people in warm and authentic towns which beckon you to stroll art galleries and locally owned shops where generations of artists, writers, entrepreneurs and craftspeople see the world anew. It's tempting to do it all when you visit, but take a beat and a breath. Get a feel for the time and tempo of Maine. Simple pleasures, scenic adventures, where every route is the scenic one. Discover more at visitmaine.com Are you ready.
To level up your business?
Intuit QuickBooks has got your back. Forget stressing over unpaid invoices or tracking expenses. QuickBooks takes care of all that so.
You can focus on growing.
Let QuickBooks be your all-in-one tool to help with the day-to-day tasks so you can stay focused on the big picture. Manage and grow your business all in one place. Intuit QuickBooks, your way to money. Get 90% off for three months. Limited time only. Terms and conditions apply. Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments Inc. Licensed as a money transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services.
I'm trying to think I'm allowed to say them yet. Let's see. Okay. But let's just say she was trained to seduce men for their secrets or sometimes their lives, right? Depending on what they need. And literally, again, according to her, was in this training thing where she was taught, there's a great-- so she was.
Trained on how to manipulate men.
Yeah. And one of the keys is this, and I was reading about actually, a lot of men are caught in these love traps or honey traps. The love trap is longer than the love trap. Some people are literally, some people, and this is like historical fact, they were like, the, so that, such a crazy world. So the men are called, often called, Romeos, and the women are called Swallows. Here they, it's called Red Sparrow, but the real word is Swallow. In Russian, but Swallow has different connotations. So they probably changed his boss to Sparrow. But there were women who were often, if they were, this one woman who worked in an embassy or several people who usually get someone lower level who was secretary in this Romeo from Russia or East Germany, I think at least at that time seduced her. And she literally was in a relationship with him. And he was saying he was working on a world peace project. Never knew she was a spy and she was giving him data to help him find world peace. Wow. To help him create his world peace project and literally he's just feeding it all back to the Russians. And as soon as the Soviet Union collapsed, well, guess what? That relationship ended and later she's being looked at as a traitor. Wow. So men were doing this, but then.
There'S women doing this as well?
Yeah, there's women doing it. Yeah, and there's all kinds of different forms of it.
What was the training like for this woman that you, you know, interviewed in this podcast? What, like, what is training camp on seduction and manipulation and getting men to fall in love with you? What does that look like?
The training, what's interesting is that the key part of the training is that he has to approach you.
See, the man has to approach you.
So you have to get the man to approach you. And I was reading other, other, other sort of cases. There's one, and again, men can be kind of not so smart when it comes to, she has a great line, she's like, yeah, like men's biggest weakness is sex. And so there's one case in the podcast about this Israeli nuclear technician who defects to spill the secrets of the program. and then he's in London talking to reporters. He's at a newsstand getting a cigarette or whatever. He meets, there's a woman that he's attracted to. He starts talking to her. So he thinks he picked her up, you know? And so the first thing they'll teach you is how to sort of get someone. It started for her, she says, that she was, it started with posture, clothing, makeup. She was actually from, she's from Kazakhstan. So she, yeah, I think Kazakhstan, she really strict upbringing and never even, you know, wore makeup. Wow. Never had a boyfriend, never even kissed anyone before. And so really a lot of it was, well, it sounds sexy so much as, is really, you know, abusive, abusive power and like, it was a horrible, you know, it really is, it, that was It's dramatic for everybody, this kind of line of work. Wow.
So they put her through a training camp on essentially how to get men to approach her without her saying anything to them.
Yeah, everything, literally like they teach her poisons and they literally, and they also say-- Yeah.
Oh my God. How to poison someone?
Yeah, like for example, and I'm an expert on this, but Coca-Cola, like soda is like Coke is a good thing 'cause it has such a strong taste that it covers up the poison. Oh my God, the water is tough. You know, so rum and coke is a great concealment. So then the other thing is also they taught her how to like to be sexual stuff. So if you're the best he's ever been with, you- He still wants more. Yeah, he still wants more.
It's like a drug.
That's literally what she says in the podcast. She says, she says like a drug, you give a little bit, and you take it away. You give a little bit, and you take it away till they're addicted to it.
And then they reveal all their secrets.
Yeah, and there's two ways. Yeah, you can just sort of overtly, covertly, you know, different ways to get the information. Sometimes it's not about revealing their secrets, sometimes it's about trapping them, in other words, like if they are married or acting outside of, sometimes it's about trap them or black mail or, yeah.
It's so sophisticated, and I don't know.
If this is just to your listeners, but I'm just, it's so sophisticated that let's just say, you're, you're. And it's very funny. It's really widespread. The transcriber of my podcast is transcribing it. The interview, she gets the first interview. She's like, oh, you know, I used to work on, like, a secret program, and they warned everybody about these women that if you're somewhere traveling and you meet someone who's out of your league, they probably are.
Right, right, right. Yeah.
So, so, so this is how it kind of once they got somebody on the hook, so let's just say they have some blackmail material, they call it kompromat, blackmail material, they would just say, hey, we just need to do this for us, and it might be a real harmless thing, we just need to get this piece of information, like this doesn't hurt, this security mic safety, it gets rid of this thing, you give them the harmless piece of information. Then they really have you, because now it's one thing to be caught having sex with someone, now you've actually betrayed your country. with this tiny piece of information, and I'll be really happy.
Oh man.
Yeah. This is crazy. It's crazy. There's like a world out there that I never knew about.
How do men know if women are truly falling for them or are trying to manipulate them?
Yeah.
Now we've gone from cheating to are they Russian agents?
Or maybe they're just more narcissistic. They want to get money from them or they want to get, you know, fancy dates from them. It's like wanting them for their personality and who they are versus wanting them because of what they have.
Yeah, that's a great, great, great question. And let's match that with there are some men and some people who are just so insecure that think their only value is giving something if I'm not paying, buying, giving, I'm not lovable as I am. So, the first step is, do you feel that you're lovable as you are? And if you don't, you're really ripe for manipulation. And the second thing is, is like, is if you don't comply with the request, are they still gonna love you or care about you?
So how do you know if they're actually manipulating you or if they care about you based on how they respond to your actions or... Let's see.
How do you so how the question is how do you know if someone's just kind of using you or with you. I mean, I think the things are that, I mean, first of all, they're always telltale signs. And by the way, I would also say the other ones, how do you know if someone's using you just for sex also? And I think the sex money dynamic across the board is, are they willing to spend time with you without any of that?
Right?
Like, there's so many, it's like you have to be secure enough within yourself or at least rude enough for herself that you can see that, oh, okay, unless they're, when all of a sudden you're jumping through hoops, when A, maybe that person doesn't want to see you if there's not a sex possibility involved, right? Like, oh, we'll see each other on Saturday night instead. Instead of meeting for lunch junior work, like, okay, they probably urged him that. Or on the other side is like, okay, they're not going to do this unless I roll out all these luxuries, otherwise they don't want to go for dinner or something. But that said, I do think that I like to operate on a position of trust with everybody. Meaning, even if they're enmeshed, even if all these other things we're talking about, I really want to give someone 100% trust, because if you don't, you're already hurting the potential for what it can be. Then just be aware if there are warning signs and just be like, hey, I'm discerning. Yeah, be discerning. I think being really, really open and then not being afraid to see the warning signs and take a step back or discuss it. Wow. Yeah, but I think it all starts from being secure within yourself. I think that it's important. I don't know why people know this intuitively, I'm not emotionally that we're wired when we're children, right? If our parents, caregivers leave us, well, we die. when we're just infants. So some people think that as adults. If the person we love leaves us, we're gonna die. And some people, you know, do catastrophic things to themselves or others because of that, you know. But the fact is you're literally gonna be okay and you're gonna find love again. And just wreck having that security and be like, I'm gonna find someone great or probably better.
Right.
And again, if somebody cheats on me, Thank you, you showed me who you are. Now I get to move on. I wish you told me sooner. There's a great line that one of the therapists in the Truth said, that the only people who can be abandoned are children and dependent elders. Everyone else, the only person who can abandon you is yourself.
That's strong. It seems like people want love and intimacy more than ever, but people are afraid of commitment. more than ever. Why do you think that people are afraid to commit?
Yeah, I think it's part of that paradox of choice, right? Like, I've noticed that. I've noticed that too, that we're living this, people have that mind and I.
Think- Endless possibilities or choices.
Can I do better? And now it's so easy to meet, like literally, like you're single, you download three apps and now you've got 50 options, right? and it's so easy to be like, well, I'm going to trade this. I'm going to trade. I can get better.
I can do better.
That thing's not right. I don't have to fix it. I can just throw it out and start all over again. And, and that's why, that's why on these apps, when you're hiring for a job, right? It's really hard if you're going off, if you do a posting, because a lot of people come to you, been looking for jobs forever or just leaving job there for a few months because they're not hireable. The same is true in the dating apps, which is a lot. undatable people are circulating endlessly there.
With other undatable people.
Yes.
Yeah.
And not to put it be hard on that. And by the way, many people had love and got married and amazing things and just as many people have gotten amazing jobs through job searches, but it's tougher and there's less time to interview people. Wow.
This is fascinating stuff, man.
Yeah, it's such interesting, it's really interesting. So it's funny we got back to relationships.
Yeah.
It all gets back to relationships.
I've only got about 10 minutes left with you. I've got a whole another section on creativity that we'll have to do another episode on. But I want to ask you, from this podcast that you're launching, when we put this out, it'll be out that week. It's called To Die For, and it's really powerful. Eight episodes from this series of interviewing this former Russian spy who manipulated men, who did harmful things to men, who got secrets from men, all these different things. What were the three biggest takeaways you learned from interviewing her about the human mind?
Yeah, so in other words, yeah, I think the three biggest takeaways is one is she had this technique called Circles of Hell. I thought, what was that? I know. So Circles of Hell was basically that what really gets us hooked and be aware of this in your own life when you fall for it, is the push-pull. If I give someone, she would control people by punishment or reward. So we really go crazy with punishment or reward, which is you're acting nice, you get to come close and hang out with me, and then you're now, I don't like how you're acting, so I'm gonna punish you and make you distance. So tell you beg or forgiveness or whatever, yeah.
And we've seen people in relationships who.
Fall on that, and also in really toxic ways, so we would have a very toxic partner, but all of a sudden that person is all nice and loving and they go back to them.
I've experienced that in the past, yeah.
And so just beware if you're sort of in. So that was one. I needed to listen to this podcast.
Like 20 years ago.
Yeah, yeah.
'Cause I would have heard the signs.
Yeah. It's funny too, I also think of, listen to your friends when you're in relationships. Oh man.
Yeah.
Sometimes the friends, I've had friends in those relations where I'm like, I can't say anything to them till later. Like, why didn't you tell me earlier?
Like, I tried, but you shut me.
Out of your life when I tried, so I stopped. It's tough. Okay, circles of hell. Circles of hell is one. Second one, is, let's see, second awesome technique from her. It's funny, a lot of the stuff overlapped with the game, right? But she-- But from the female point of view. And besides sex, men's other biggest weaknesses? Flattery.
Compliments, flattery. You look so good in that.
They get addicted to how they feel about themselves. when they're with you. Wow. Right?
Flattery.
Yeah. So it's like, it's so nice to be around that. But, like, sometimes it can be like a manipulation. I remember.
Yeah. It's very seductive and manipulating.
Yeah.
I see. So flattery, circles of hell. Let me think. There were so. There was. There was so much stuff. A lot of the stuff came from NLP. She did, like, a lot of. Oh, she just. She did a lot of, do you know what anchoring is? So basically, she's talking to you and having you talk about a peak positive experience. She tried to touch you somewhere.
Touch you on your shoulder, your arm.
Yeah, she tried to choose a place where maybe people normally don't touch, like your neck. Really? That would be a good one. I can go fourth bonus one. She's like, you know when the men are the most vulnerable? Yeah, yes.
In bed.
Yeah, and that one certain point in bed. That she's like, at that point, you can do anything. She's like, you, could kill, it's pretty intense. I can't even believe. She's like, you, can kill them or you can, if you whisper something or tell them something it really implants in their brain in that point.
It's dark.
It's the most vulnerable sexual moment.
Yeah. Yeah. It's unbelievable. I mean, but I think it's, none of this makes me be any less trusting in the world, but also, So I think none of this, I think we should still have trust, but I think we should also see warning signs and run. Absolutely.
Yeah.
This is fascinating. So the new podcast is called To Die For. You can find it anywhere on podcasts. Where else can we connect with you personally? I don't know if everyone knows this, but we had Rick Rubin on and you helped co-write the book with him. which has been, I think, on the New York Times bestseller list for whatever, a year and a half now or something.
Every year. Yeah.
It's crazy how this has taken off and it's such great writing. So congrats on the work together. Because I know you played a big part in that collaboration, but how can we connect with you and support you besides listening to this podcast?
Thank you, by the way. That's a great question. I don't know. I just love, I think I just love what I do. I love having these discussions. I love learning the stuff about the human mind, whether it's creativity from Rick or like, you know, men's vulnerabilities from the Russian spy or, you know, again, talking to you about your past. So I think just like, just means a lot, just either engaging in conversation or reading, listening to the works or whatever. I love sharing the stories and the information.
Wow. Where can we connect with you online? What's the best website and social media?
I guess it's whatever one people use, but I would really rather people connect with me through, like, Just listen to the podcast. Yeah.
Listen to the podcast.
But if they want to leave a comment about like messages on Twitter or Instagram. Yeah, I try to like avoid so hard promoting myself because I hate when people do that.
But it's good, you're promoting your assistant. Yeah, probably Instagram's like Neil Strauss on Instagram, right?
Yeah.
Okay, cool. So if you listen to the podcast, you know, share this with a friend. If you thought this was interesting, send it to a friend and then leave a comment of one of Neil's Instagram posts and let them know what you thought about this episode, of course. but listen to To Die For. It's an eight part series. The last one you did, which was To Live and Die in LA.
Is that right?
To live and die in LA, like.
Took over the world.
It was fascinating what you did with that. And I think that was four or five years, five years ago, when you had that podcast. So if this is anything like that, and I know you probably even better now, five years later, it is going to blow people's minds. So I'm so excited to let's do it myself. when it comes out March 26th, make sure to leave a review on there, you know, leave a comment, give it five stars when you listen to it because that'll help get the traction for the podcast as well. But it's to die for on Apple Spotify or anywhere you listen to podcasts.
By the way, first I gotta make a quick note. First of all, thanks for seeing on saying all those things. And I'm giving an example of remember what we talked about earlier when like you do something that you reflect on it later. So I grew up in a childhood that's gonna relate to exactly what you're saying. I just have this great epiphany from what you just did, which is I never spoke up for my own needs. So we're like, what can we do for you? How can we do that? Oh, nothing, nothing. I'm like, nothing, right? And I'm like, oh, me doing that instead of just saying, yeah, I'd love it if you could do this, was actually like a bit of that left over, the discomfort of that. It's so interesting, right? So no matter where we get, we're still working at ourselves and looking at these things. Yeah, yeah. That's a cool lesson, so thank you.
That's good, man.
That's good.
A couple final questions for you, Neil. This is called the Three Truths. And you answered this five years ago when you were on last, I think. But I'm curious where you're at with this question now.
Right.
Hypothetical question. Imagine you get to live as long as you want to live.
Right.
But it's your last day on earth. You're as old as you want to be, but you know you're turning off the lights, you're going somewhere else. You're not in this world anymore. And you get to, from this moment until then, create anything you want to create. You get to have the relationships, the life, the art, the work you get to do, it all happens. But for whatever reason, you've got to take it all with you. So, we don't have access to any of the articles, books, podcasts, anything you ever make, it's gone. It's hypothetical world.
-Okay.
-But on the last day, you get to leave behind three lessons to the world. And this is all we have to remember your information by. I call it three truths. What would be those three truths for you?
I don't know, man. You know, it's funny, these questions always so, I think I would at least, I think, you know, I guess my thought is I don't want to like, I feel like we learn through stories and that's why I'm a storyteller. So I probably would find a way to, you know, to tell a story. I'd want to leave room for just some very short story that you remember in your, that people would remember that somehow helps them with themselves. But if there are three truths, I don't know. I don't know, maybe I gotta live longer before I find this truth, Sarah. And because I also know that what I said five years ago is not when I say now, five years from now.
What would you say today?
What would be the-- For today, I'd be like, don't listen to anyone else's truth, just go find your own.
Uh huh.
You know, I think we have to, the truths don't work if you don't find them yourself. And so, and I realized that, like as an example, I read a friend recently who was like, I just did this experience where I did ayahuasca straight, for seven days. It was like mind-blowing, it changed my whole life. I'm like, cool, after doing Ayahuasca straight for seven days and doing whatever you just did to your brain, like what did you learn? He goes, man, tell what I learned. Trust. You know, so I could just say my lesson is trust. You have to be in that guy's life for 30 years and then take Ayahuasca for seven days to really get that lesson. So yeah, go live and experience and find your own truth.
Okay, cool.
There is this live experience, find your own truths.
There's three, I still like it. There you go, I like it, there you go. Before I ask the final question, Neil, I want to acknowledge you for a moment, even though you don't like acknowledgement. But I want to acknowledge you for the consistent, really commitment you have to your craft, because you have such a wide range of unique talents from writing and researching and podcasting and interviews and conversations and then shaping stories and narratives to help people or share experiences in a beautiful way. I just want to acknowledge you for the gift you have and consistently showing up. You've written so many books in the last five years for some of the biggest names and talent in the world that you co-write with. You've written many of your own books. You've got this journey you're on with the podcast. So I just appreciate you, man. I acknowledge you for the whole journey you're on and how you keep evolving as a human being in life and health and relationships. So I just want to acknowledge you for a moment.
Thank you. And I'll give you all my secret information. That was great for us. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you, seriously.
Final question, what's your definition of greatness?
I think my definition of greatness is like just, just always improving and striving to be better of taking where you are and thinking what, looking at yourself and saying, how can I do better or be better from whatever your starting point is.
I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis House. I really love hearing the feedback back from you, and it helps us continue.
To make the show better.
And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do great.
Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a.
Podcast that's called literally with Rob Lowe.
And basically it's conversations I've had that.
Really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire.
Like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox.
There are new episodes out every Thursday.
So subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts. Prices keep going up these days. It feels like being on an elevator that only goes up. Going up. But not at Metro. we're pushing the down button. We've lowered prices. Get one line of 5G data for forty dollars, period. That's 20 lower. And you get a free Samsung 5G phone when you bring your number only at Metro. Five year guarantee on eligible plans. Exclusions apply. See website for details. Not available at Metro with T-Mobile in the past six months. Tax supplies.
