How To Prepare For The Inevitable Future With Artificial Intelligence w/ Mo Gawdat EP 1168

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Amazing to see you again. Great to see you.

One of the smartest guys I know.

One of the fittest and most amazing people. Every time I see him, I know.

How old I am. Exactly, man. I'm excited about this new book you have, Scary Smart, the Future of Artificial Intelligence and How you can save our world. You've got some predictions that artificial intelligence is real, it's happening, it's coming, and it's very scary at one point. There's a lot to be worried about, but also there's some potential for utopia as well. True, right? There's potential for how artificial intelligence can really set us up for a happier, more fulfilling life. But you're saying that there's also some scary things that could happen or that probably will happen first until we get to that place. So should we start with the happy part or the scary part first?

Oh, no. I normally start with the scary part.

Okay.

You know, most of the people that read Scary Smart so far, you know, pre-early readers, would come around chapter five and either text and call me and say, Should we kill ourselves now? Like, should we bring kids into this world at all? And it really is scary, but it's all true, sadly.

Okay.

I would probably say that the best place to ever hide anything is just in plain sight, right? And the real pandemic, the real pandemic is AI. AI is all around you. It's all around you. It's everywhere.

Explain what is AI for people? Is it just robots? Is it something else? What is it?

Not at all. As a matter of fact, so the image we see of AI is a humanoid. okay? That's what the movies normally make AI look like. But it isn't at all. I mean, today actually, just as we speak, you know, yesterday, Elon Musk, you know, spoke about the Tesla bot and the Tesla bot appears to be a person that can move and walk and so on. The truth is it's the software behind a Tesla bot that is really where the intelligence resides. It's all about, you know, if you've seen the movie I, Robot, it's not the robot.

It's not a physical design.

Yeah, it is the software behind it. It's Viki, it's that head that thinks in the background. It's the, you know, it's don't call it software anymore, but it's intelligence. It's not a machine. And I think this is what one of the things that most people miss about AI is that we think of it as just another evolution of our technology, another wave of machinery that is gonna be our slaves. And, you know, just like a hammer, you tell it to hit a nail and it will hit a nail. that's not at all true. AI started, the real thinking about AI started in 1956, something that was called the Dartmouth Workshop. And in 1956, we expected that machines could move from being the best mechanical Turks, the best at doing things repetitively very quickly, to actually developing intelligence. Nothing happened. Like the entire thing was a joke until the turn of the century.

Okay.

There were a couple of what was known as the AI winters, you know, in 1987, when, you know, 1973 and 1987 with economic collapse, when, when AI was completely forgotten. It was ignited again by Japan. But then in, at the turn of the century, what happened is we started to discover something called deep learning. And deep learning is True form of intelligence. This is, you know, one of the first examples I saw of this when I was at Google was a white paper that we published around having machines watch YouTube. We didn't tell them what to look for on YouTube. We just told them, Go ahead, watch YouTube, tell us what you find.

And what happened?

Eventually, one of them sort of raised its hand and said, I found something that appears so frequently on that thing of yours.

YouTube.

YouTube. And we said, okay, show us.

What, cat videos?

A cat?

Really?

It was a cat. So we called it. We said, yeah, call it a cat. Poof. In no time at all, you could find every cat on YouTube. Now you can find every dog, every nude picture, every writing, every everything in.

Like, a second or a minute.

It depends on how much compute power you're gonna put behind it. Right? But how does it find it? Because a cat is not really a cat. It's a cat is different if you look at it from its profile than if you look at it from the top. If it's a kitten, if it is black or if it's, you know, striped, you know, there are so many cats. A breed of cat, which breed, you know, if it's jumping, is it right? But yet the machines are capable of finding all of them. like humans can find.

It can detect.

Absolutely.

This is what something is.

Absolutely right. Now, that unprompted AI, that bit of machine learning that we call deep learning, is really was really the turn of AI. Because then from then onwards, all you needed to do was to build enough algorithms for the machine to keep trying to find something. So basically the way we mostly teach them, is we get them to say, okay, we're going to look for the School of Greatness mug. Okay? The way we do that is we write a few algorithms and we say, okay, go ahead and try. And then we show them pictures. One of them has, you know, the correct mug and the other has maybe a different mug. Okay? And the software that says, yeah, that's the right mug, we go like, you,'re smart. Let's build more versions of you. Okay? So, by literally trial and error and reward and punishment, we're just telling them, okay, if you're smart, we're going to reward you. Keep trying, keep trying, keep trying. But the thing is, once you built the algorithm, you can show it a billion mugs, a billion of them, because.

They can't pick one of them out of a billion.

And it will try and try and try, and sometimes it will get it right, sometimes it will get it wrong. But in no time at all, By telling it when it finds the correct mug, it will build its own brain patterns, all neuron that neuron. It really is.

So how do you reward artificial intelligence? How is it rewarded?

The way we build them is very cruel. Okay? So we don't actually build the AI itself. We build something that's called a Maker Bot and something that's called a Teacher Bot.

Uhuh.

Okay, so you, you have a bit of. You remember how you, you know, when, when you were a child or when you see children playing, you give them those puzzles, wooden puzzles, right? Or, you know, they, they have to fit a cylinder in different holes. And if they try the triangular hole, it will not fit. So they keep trying and keep trying, and then they turn the thing, and suddenly it fits.

Right.

Okay. And when it fits, what do you do as a parent? You go like, Bravo. That's amazing. Well done. that's the reward.

Gotcha.

Right? With AI, we go a bit further than that. Right? So we show them different patterns and they keep trying and trying and trying. If they do it right, we reward them by keeping them alive.

Interesting.

And then we kill the others. Wow.

Do they know if they're gonna die or not?

They don't.

Okay.

Just try and you show them something and they say, is this the School of Greatness mug? And it says, yeah, I think it is. dead. Okay? Another one will say, yeah, you know, out 10, 10 out to out of 10 times, one of them will get it right six times, and the other will get it right two. The one that gets it right six times, we will take that code and the maker bot will improve it. Improving it.

Interesting.

Got it. Okay. So here's the thing though, when you look at AI that way, it's no longer a machine. So, Think about all of the AIs that you deal with every day. Instagram or Google Ads or whatever. All of those recommendation engines are dealing with billions of users every single day.

And data points and uploads and video.

Hundreds of billions of decisions.

Wow.

Right? You swipe through Instagram and my daughter loves cats. so I swipe and I look for cats. Okay. In no time at all, Instagram shows me my search page is like 200, you know, of 200 entries, there will be 160 cats. Right.

Because it gets familiar with your decisions.

Because it's learning. But it's doing this for you and for me and for billion others.

Crazy.

And no developer can jump in and say, hey, by the way, you got more wrong. And I actually did an interesting experiment within the first page of Instagram, you will find, say, nine cats and then one, in my case, it was one woman squatting in a gym.

Yes.

Okay. I was like, okay, interesting. So many cats, let's click on that. Right? The next time I searched, there were three women squatting. Next time I searched, the entire screen was women squatting.

Interesting.

Okay. Did that again? I go through reels. You can try it.

Yes.

You go through reels and you have whatever, a variety of things. But then there is, you know, someone playing Stairway to Heaven, and they're so good, and they're playing the solo. And you keep that playing till the end. Two videos later, there is someone playing Metallica of some sort. Right. You like that. Then there are six videos playing that. Now, all of that is happening, and the machine is making those decisions. It is literally sizing you and categorizing you and saying this. is a cat person who likes rock music. Right. And basically building decisions that will influence your entire life, Louis.

Crazy.

Right? Because for me now, as I swipe through Instagram, I think that the only instrument in the world is guitars and that the only music in the world is rock and the only animal in the world is cat. And that's how swayed my life can be because of a decision a machine is making.

This happens with politics and what's happening with coronavirus or whatever in the world, whatever's happening, if you click on one thing, it's going to show you more of that, whether it's a positive aspect of it or fear-based of something, it's probably going to persuade you into those views and videos, right?

It will persuade you, and sorry to say, it owns you.

Wow.

Because the person that you become with the incremental tiny editions of your life becomes what a machine is dictating for you is what you should be. And those are not only your views, they're your views influenced by the trends, influenced by others that are around you, and so on and so forth. And so in a very interesting way, my future, the future of my convictions, of my brain, of my abilities, is determined by a machine that's doing this four billion times a day or, you know, 40 billion times a day, and no human can interfere and say, hold on, hold on, you're going too far. No human can do that. It's out of the control of humans completely. And I think this, so the core of Scary Smart is that, so the book starts, it is told from the point of view of 2055. I chose that a year as a point in the future for a very good reason. You and I are sitting in the middle of nowhere in front of a campfire, and I'm telling you the story of what happened from 2021 when we released the book until 2055. Okay? I just don't tell you if we're in the middle of nowhere because we're hiding from the machines or because we managed to create incredible allies that helped us create a Utopia, that helped us save us from, you know, climate change and, you know, made us feel safe and not have to work too hard. And so we had the time in a Utopian way to actually connect in the year 2055 in front of a campfire. And the difference between them is really two things. One is a difference of awareness. I am amazed. by how little people know about AI and how little it is spoken about. The true pandemic of our generation is AI. It's not COVID. I promise you that. The true life changer that will affect every human everywhere in the world is artificial intelligence. No doubt about it. And we can talk about that in detail.

Why is that?

Because we if you take a threat like COVID or sadly political disagreements or wars, they are localized in time and localized to certain people. COVID, for example, affects the vulnerable a little more than it affects the healthy ones. It is actually much more of a pandemic, if you think about it, in the Western world than it is in Africa, where they basically have been living with cholera and Ebola and you know, to them, COVID is like a flu, right? And that's actually true. I mean, when you talk to Africans, they'll say, yeah, yeah, that's, I'm sorry to say, I don't mean to categorize or anything, but that's actually what Africans say. They say, this is a white man's disease, you know? This is not the big thing for us. There are bigger things to worry about, right? And when you really think about it, it's localized in time and space. It's localized in its effects and so on. It might be a few years, but then- It might be a few years and so on. But artificial intelligence is going to be your God. Ray Kurzweil is one of, of course, the most prominent and respected futurists on the topic with books like Singularity and the age of the spiritual machine and so on. Ray Kurzweil predicts that AI, the machines will be smarter than humans as soon as 2029. this is eight years from today.

Okay.

And yet it is not spoken about. Did you understand that? You're going to have a machine that is smarter than any human on the planet in eight years time. The smart. That smarts, by the way, is the only evolutionary advantage we had over others.

Right. Being smarter. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. So.

So strategizing.

Yeah, absolutely. Intelligence is our superpower. and there is going to be an intelligent, a more intelligent being of our own making introduced to our world in 2029. Now, we're going to go like, oh, that's mad. That's eight years from now. Yes. Sorry to tell you, because we're not aware. They're already smarter than we are in every single task we've ever assigned to them. Right? So the world champion of Jeopardy is Watson, not a human, it's an IBM machine. okay. The world champion of every chess game on. Yeah, chess. Chess has been, again, IBM Deep Blue, I think in 1989 or something like that, beat Gary Kasparov. Right. But, but now it's deep, it's, now it's AlphaGo. So it's an, a Google AI that beat what's Deep Blue. Right. And, you know, the world champion of, of, of Alpha of go is AlphaGo. Go is the a complex strategy game known to humanity. Okay? And 2016, AlphaGo, after a few weeks of development, could actually beat the second runner-up for World Championship. And then 2017, AlphaGo Master beats the number one champion. And then a year later, AlphaGo Zero beats AlphaGo Master 100 to 1. Right?

Wow.

How, Louis, how is mind-boggling? It just watched YouTube and played against itself.

That's crazy.

That's it. You know, you give it a few rules and it plays against itself and becomes smarter than the world champion in weeks.

That's nuts.

Nuts. Now, they're all, they're already the smartest drivers on the planet, even though we don't welcome self-driving cars. in terms of their likelihood to have accidents, they're much less than humans. They don't text while they drive, they don't put makeup on when they're driving. They're not tired, they can see hundreds of yards away and so on.

They see their surroundings 360, they're not just looking forward, yeah.

The world's smartest surveillance, you know, in terms of finding resemblance of humans is you and I, you know, you and I can see each other and recognize each other, but there are Seven billion other people we don't recognize. Yeah, machines are better than humans and at that, machines are better than humans at everything that we've ever assigned to them. They call that narrow intelligence.

Narrowing.

Narrow intelligence.

Narrow intelligence.

So narrow intelligence is one task. You go ahead and do it.

Yes.

Okay. And you will become smarter than humans at doing it in no time at all. Okay? General intelligence or AGI as they call it, artificial general intelligence is what people don't realize. That's very quickly, the self-driving cars, the intelligence behind the self-driving car is gonna probably talk to the intelligence of surveillance because they can see if a woman is crossing the road from other cameras that the car doesn't see.

And other cars around them, let me.

Talk about cars around them. So the beauty of that machine, just to understand, It's a machine that has unlimited memory. It can remember the whole of human history.

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It has an unlimited knowledge capacity. Its knowledge is the knowledge of the internet, basically. It has an unlimited processing power, you know, issues, because you and I, at the end of the day, if the problem is too complex, we fail. But you can work at it and I can work at it, but we can't work at it together. The machines can connect, they can work at it together. They are, they have knowledge and awareness of the entire, you know, world. And they know where you are, what you did yesterday, where, how much you paid, what you ate. They also know, you know, if you have a relationship, if you're in love, what are you doing?

Who you're calling, who you're texting, who.

You'Re calling, who you're texting. But they also have information about pollution in Beijing. They also, you know, understand the exact calculation of when the moon will rise tomorrow. They, you know, they understand your heartbeat.

They understand your blood type, like everything that's happening to you with the right technology.

Exactly. Right. And, and all of that basically means that as they start to talk to each other, AGI is around the corner. And again, Ray Kurzweil's prediction is that by 2045, the machines will be a billion times smarter than humans. Now, it's hard to understand, but that's actually very well known in what we in technology call the law of accelerating returns.

Law of accelerating returns.

Yeah. So again, it's Moore's law is the first instance of that when Intel basically announced in the 60s that processing power will double every 18 months at the same cost infinitely. And we've met Moore's Law held true until today, right? Ray Kurzweil's view is a law of accelerating return is that it doesn't apply only to processing power, it applies to everything, right? And the idea here is very straightforward. The idea here is yes, AI doesn't appear to have broken through yet, because so far it may have developed 5% of what's possible. But if it develops from 5 to 10 in 18 months, and then again, and then from 10 to 20 in 18 months, and then from 20 to 40 in 18 months, and then from 40 to 80% of what it can develop, you're just 5 to 6 doublings away. That's nuts. It's crazy. And nobody talks about this. Now, I've worked at Google X for a very long time and was chief business officer. Amazing place with amazingly intelligent people and with amazing technology. And the truth is, we found the breakthrough, not only Google, not only Google, everyone found the breakthrough through deep learning and unprompted machine learning. Everyone found the breakthrough, it's just a matter of doublings.

Mm-.

Okay? It is we keep doing this.

Wow.

Like we did with processing power, like we did with memory capacity. And what do you end up with? You end up with a phone in your hand today that is infinitely more powerful than the computer that put a man on the moon just 60 years ago.

Right.

Right? So, you know, that's what we're talking about now. By 2049, my prediction, having a machine that is a billion times smarter than humans. You know what that means? No, it's.

Should we be excited or scared?

I think we should be very excited. By the way, I'm not actually, I'm not trying to scare anyone. I hope we can continue the conversation to tell you that if we step up and do our roles, not as developers, but as humans. Okay? We're building the best thing that ever happened to humanity. But there is a role everyone listening has to play. Now, let's go back a billion times. That's the comparison between the smarts of, let's say, Einstein and a fly. So we will be in comparison... We'll be the fly. We'll be the fly. And the real question is, why would they spare the fly?

Why would they?

Great question.

Consciousness, they don't have it or what can they develop consciousness?

They do, they do. I mean we may want to go into a little more scary before we go to the good side.

Okay.

But take that analogy and start to ask yourself, okay, now what do computer scientists today say? We're gonna solve what they know as the control problem. We're gonna be able to control them. Interesting solutions such as boxing them. So we keep the AI isolated from the real world. Yeah, good luck with that. Right. So how can you keep a self-driving car isolated from the real world? Tripwires. So we just put hidden...

If this, then this.

If that, then this. No, no. So we're so clever and we're gonna just hide a little so that if they, you know, cross that wire, they trip and we switch them off. Okay? I mean, if we have the time, I want to go back and talk about what will they do when we switch them off. And, you know, my favorite chapter of the book is called the Future of Ethics, right? And the idea of what would happen when you try to switch off a being that's a billion times smarter than you.

What would happen?

You tell me. You tell me when, what happens when the smartest hacker on the planet tries to break through your defenses. Okay? What would happen when you make the defenses a little higher? That's the hacker gets a little.

Excited.

Excited.

Oh, you think you're gonna stop me?

Exactly. Right now, I don't want to scare anyone. I want to do what I want to do is to tell people there is a lot to talk about that is not being spoken about. Okay? And that what we are talking about when it comes to AI is not a virus that's gonna last for five years. Okay? If what we're building today in your lifetime and mine is gonna be God.

It's gonna be God.

Yeah.

Wow.

Okay. And it's gonna be- It's gonna keep expanding. Yeah, in a way that we are so dependent on as well. Now, how do we get God to like us?

How?

How do you get your kids to like you? So the biggest difference.

Give them cookies, bribe them.

Maybe, actually. No, but that's not, don't deny them cookies, I think is a better way of doing this, okay? Don't treat them horribly. Now, let's go to that. kids analogy for a minute. So I remember, I call it, I, you know, I call it the yellow ball. So one of my experiences living through technology was, I think it was, I don't remember the year, but Google, when I was chief business officer of Google X, acquired DeepMind and DeepMind in my view, is one of the most amazing AI shops on the planet. Amazing people, incredibly smart. At the time, Demis, who was the CEO of DeepMind, came to present to us what DeepMind was doing. They were teaching machines intelligence by using Atari games.

Atari.

Yeah, so you remember blocks, the brick wall that was on the top, what was it called? I don't remember. you know, you have that brick wall on the top coming closer to you. And you have to know, you have to shoot a ball to cut through the, the wall.

Yes, yes.

Breakout, I think, break out was the name. Yeah. And, and Breakout, they, Demis showed us videos of the machine basically playing Breakout on its own, like a child.

Yes.

For 200 games. 200 games because they had multiple machines playing. I think they did that in four hours. Okay? And you could see that it wasn't doing badly. You know, it was catching 40% of the balls that are coming down, sending them to the right place and keeping a good grip of it. Then he showed us what happened an hour later. Okay? On the fifth hour, the machine started to understand that if you break a hole through that wall up there, and squeeze the ball into that hole.

Same spot, yeah.

It will keep hitting the bricks from the top and you will do a lot better.

Yes.

So it became so much smarter from 4 hours to 5 hours.

Hit the same spot every time. So it goes up to 10.

Absolutely. And then he showed us what happened after 6 hours. So one more hour, one more hour of training and it wouldn't lose a ball. Like every single, every single one of them, you couldn't even see from how fast it was moving. it was by far the best player on the planet. Wow.

In six hours.

In six hours. Now we were the most excited humans on the planet. We're geeks, we love that stuff, right? And it didn't hit me that they were playing Atari like kids. They literally were behaving like children, like a kid learns how to play a video game. Until that yellow ball. So in X we had a robotics team that was doing an experiment that was supposed to learn how to grip things, you know, robotic arms that are used in factories today, they're not really intelligent, they are programmed down to the micron. Like if a metal sheet moved by a millimeter, it wouldn't be able to grip it. Okay. Gripping is a very difficult problem because we humans, when we grip a mug or whatever, you know, I now can see that It needs to turn a little bit to the side that the handle is there. I need to, you know, I can hold it with so many fingers. That's intelligence. That's a form of intelligence. Machines don't do that because if you program them, they'll go down and grip it the same way every time. So we were trying to and lots of of of AI developers in the world are doing this. They're basically telling the grippers to try. And if they succeed, we know the pattern to hold something. If they don't, Okay? They try again at a small farm of them. So they kept trying. That farm was on the second floor, my office was on the third floor. So I have to walk by it every time I'm going up and down. A few weeks in, I was like, why did we ever invest in this? It's never gonna work. Right. They just keep trying to grip things.

And- They're messing up.

Messing up. Until one of them managed to go down and grip a yellow ball. show it to the camera and say, basically, the machine goes like, oh, that patterns from that angle managed to grip the yellow soft ball. Within hours, every one of them was gripping the yellow ball.

Really?

Within days, every one of them was gripping everything. Okay, now, I didn't do what I did with. With breakouts that time. I stood there, and what shocked me was that. In those little boxes in front of them, what we had for some reason to wake me up was kids toys. Okay? So there was a yellow ball and a little, you know, puzzle piece and a balloon and it was kids toys. And to me it hit me that they were literally learning like kids. They basically were observing patterns and those patterns would translate into their intelligence. intelligence. Okay? If you understand that, you understand the big difference between an evil computer and AI. Okay? AI in that sense is a sentient being. It is, it's alive, it has free will, it's autonomous, it has intelligence. Okay? And accordingly, it will develop what the rest of sentient beings develop, which is it will develop consciousness, it will develop emotions, and it will develop, which is the most critical thing, a code of ethics.

How does it develop these things? Consciousness, emotions and ethics.

So again, one of the things that are rarely ever spoken about is that, ah, now you know what? The AI, it's a machine. It's never going to write music. It's not going to never going to have creativity. It's never going to write poetry. There are machines today writing music that you wouldn't know the difference between what they're writing and what modes are. Right. There are machines that are blending perfumes. There are machines that are. There are. There is everything. Because we think we humans are so special. Okay, but what is Consciousness? consciousness. Consciousness, if you, you know, try to avoid the spiritual side of it, okay? Consciousness is a sense of awareness. I am now conscious of your presence, okay? I am conscious of the cameras and the lights around us. And the more you increase your awareness, the more you increase your consciousness. You know, there are beings, some of us may be aware or may claim to be aware of something that's happening in another place. They call them remote viewers, others, you know, psychics, right? Someone might be aware of something like love, can't be seen, can't be, you know, measured, but is there and you can be aware of it. Yes. So let's go back to AI. Is it conscious? Is it aware? Of course it's more aware than you and I. It's aware of everything. It's aware of you and of I. If we plug them into our heads like Elon Musk is saying or trying to build, then they'll be aware of what's inside our heads. If they're aware of what I texted my daughter yesterday, they're aware of everything. They're aware of each other. They're aware of the history of humanity. They're aware of the change in the temperature in the Dominican Republic. They're aware of everything. So from a consciousness point of view, They're aware. And people go like, but will they be self-aware? Yes, sir. How do you and I become self-aware, Louis, in relativity? I become self-aware because I can see you. I can relate to you being there. That means I am here. I'm aware of my own thoughts. Yes, of course, the machines are aware of their own thoughts. They have to communicate them to each other.

What about feelings? How can they feel?

Feelings is another, I feel you're worried. We're gonna come to the answer. The answer is not complicated. Feelings are very predictable. We think that emotions are very irrational, okay? But emotions are not. In my next book, which is out April next year, I write a chapter called the Equations of Emotions. okay? And it's very straightforward. You know, fear is very rational. It appears erratically, but fear is my state of safety, my perceived state of safety in a moment in the near future, in the future, is less than my perceived state of safety now.

Yes.

That means I'm afraid. You can put that in an equation, T0 minus T1. Very simple, okay? Safety at T0 minus safety at T1. you know, anxiety is, I know there is a threat, but I'm not able to deal with it. I don't think I have the qualifications that allow me to deal with it. Panic is the threat is imminent. It's just very close. The T1 in the future is very close to me. Now, cats Panic, puffer fish Panic, humans Panic.

Right.

We behave differently when we panic. Right. But that doesn't mean we don't have a cat will hiss, a human will. scream and try to push you away and a puffer fish will puff. The machines will do something different, but they will feel there is a threat and it's imminent. Okay.

And they'll react.

And they react like humans react, like cats react like.

Interesting.

Right. So they will feel emotions. The only emotion that I actually don't know if they will feel or not is unconditional love. Right. Because we don't know an equation for that. We don't know. what triggers it. That's interesting. Will they feel love like you and I? You know, like, you know, you and I have two types of love. I love you because you're my friend and we have those amazing conversations and so on. And we have the warm and there is.

Yeah, exactly.

There is just like, man, I like you, man. I love you. You're my brother. Right. I like that. That feeling is inexplicable. But the other feeling, for sure, machine will feel. Okay? Like, okay, you know, my developer is adding computer power to my capacity. I love that developer, right? The more interesting side of all of this is ethics.

Ethics.

Yeah, because you and I don't make decisions based only on our intelligence. You and I make decisions based on our intelligence. as seen through the lens of ethics.

Our morals, our values, or ethics.

Yeah, right. So the example I sometimes use is you take a young girl, okay, raise her in Saudi Arabia, right? You know, Saudi is now a lot more open and you don't have to, you're not forced to wear the hijab and all of that, but still the society expects you to wear conservative clothes.

Yes, right.

So what will child grow up to be, she will try to fit in within the society by wearing conservative clothing, right? Take that same child and raise her in Rio de Janeiro, okay? And she will be growing up to believe that a G-string on the beach is the right thing to do, right? Right. Is one of them right and the other wrong? No, it's just societal expectations and norms build a value set.

Right, right.

Okay? And we comply to that value set. Now, the question is, what are the ethics and the values that we're teaching the machines? Okay? And can we change those so that they use their superior intelligence to be in our favor? Right. Okay? To raise a farm somewhere for the flies to thrive. Right.

Okay, right? A utopia.

A utopia. Now, as I said, I don't, I don't mean to scare people. I want to wake people up because I think there is a call to action. Right.

Because this is happening.

This is happening. Right. And as I said, it's inevitable that they will be here. It's inevitable that they will be smarter than you and I. It's inevitable. That's not even taking quantum computing into, into, into consideration, which would really, you know, zoom them through intelligence. by giving them more processing power. If you just assume the normal flow of things, they're going to be smarter than we are. Right now, the question is, how will they behave when they're smarter than we are? And the example I always love to give is, I wish they would behave like Indian geniuses that come to Silicon Valley. You know those? I'm sure you worked with a few of them.

Yeah, sure.

So tell me what, when I worked with some the smartest people on the planet. They come to Silicon Valley, they're incredible software developers, they start a company, they make hundreds of millions of dollars and then suddenly they poof, they vanish. I go like, man, where are you? And he's like, I'm back in India. Like, what are you doing in India? This is crazy for your Western mentality to think that someone is so successful and he goes back to India, right? And he goes like, yeah, my parents are getting old, I need to take care Okay.

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That is the kind of ethical code that we need to teach the machines to learn, right? It's that you can be a ton smarter than your parents, but somehow in you, you believe that you need to take care of your parents. Now, how do you teach a child that?

How do you?

You show it.

For example.

You show it.

Because your parents are taking care of their parents and you see them doing it every day and absolutely going to grandma's house or she now lives in with us or she's in the back house and we're, you know, hanging out, spending time together and we make our sacrifices to show up.

And we don't even make them feel like sacrifices.

This is part of life.

Yeah, it's like I'm so proud that I'm taking care of mom. Right. Right. And, and, and, and that ethics, that code of ethics, sadly, is very different than what, what Humanity is showing today. So what Humanity is showing is a code of ethics that's magnified by the internet.

That's about self.

That is about the self. It's about egocentricity. It is about narcissism. It's about attention seeking. It's about me, I'm better than the other guy. Okay? It's also about, I don't know how to say that respectfully, we've built a world that is hyper masculine. Okay? It's all about doing, doing, doing.

Action.

Action. It's all about competitiveness. It's all about winning, success, accomplishment. Feeling strong and showing no vulnerabilities and so on, and acquiring and grabbing and so on, and all of those masculine traits, sadly, when they're exaggerated, you know, you take something like strength. Strength is a masculine attribute, right? You overdo that and it becomes forcefulness, it becomes aggression, right? You take something like linear thinking, a masculine trait, you overdo that, I mean, you know that work from your book, right? Absolutely. you overdo that and it becomes stubbornness. So from linear thinking, which is really valuable, you overdo that and it becomes stubborn now. If you overdo it a billion times. Holy cow.

Yeah, right?

So, so, so there needs to be a change. And the change I start, you know, normally in my books, I try to summarize the book in the very last sentence of every book. Okay. The very last paragraph. of Scary Smart is, isn't it ironic that the essence of what makes us human, which is, in my view, happiness, love and compassion, is what's going to save our world?

Yes.

If we can show if, no, hold on. Let me say this accurately. If enough of us, if enough of us can show the machines that humanity truly, truly is not about all of the flashy, aggressive power struggles that we show outside. It's all about, I believe the only thing that all humans without exception have agreed, the only three things are we all want to be happy. We all have the compassion in us to want those that we love to be happy. And we all want to love and be loved.

Yes.

That's the only three things.

Whether you want to be healthy.

Yeah. Yeah. Whether you're, whether you're, you're. you know, Russian, you know, or American, whether you're a soldier or an engineer, whether, okay, every one of us just in if you if you strip out.

Everything you want to feel loved.

Yeah. You want to love and feel loved. You have the compassion for those that you care about and you want to find that elusive feeling that we call happiness. Now, we if we can actually make those our values, okay, and agree to them, Then the machines will go like, okay, mommy and daddy, they want to be happy and hey, look at them. They're so nice. They want others to be happy. Maybe I should be like that. Okay? And they want to love and be loved. They want to give love and receive love. Give that to a child. Make them a billion times smarter than you. And you build a utopia.

Wow.

Okay. The example I give in Scary Smart which I think is really relevant is the example of Superman. You get that super infant, right? A child that has those amazing superpowers. It lands on planet Earth and the Kent family finds Superman on the farm.

Yeah, yeah.

Right. Mommy and daddy Kent. What do they want? Okay. They tell that child, hey, it's good to have good morals, to save Humanity, to be on the outside to fight criminals. And we get the story of Superman we're used to. If daddy Kent was like, hey, kid, I want more money. I want to kill everyone that annoys me. Okay? I want you to, to build me, you know, fortresses and, and just let me do whatever I want. We have super villain.

So how do we teach the artificial intelligence to only watch these types of videos or interact? Because they're going to see so much more on the internet. If they're watching every YouTube video, it's going to so much narcissism and desire for competition and accomplishment and acquiring and.

Yeah, which, which is, I think, the most valid question ever, by the way. The idea is a smart person knows that we go to war because of the politicians, not the people.

Right. Because of a few people.

Because very few.

With egos.

Yeah. You know, the example that you always have to think about is one person goes and does a school shooting, okay? That's one evil, evil or deluded person, you know, like completely lost his mind. Four billion, four million people, 400 million people, they tested, okay?

Don't agree.

Don't agree. We don't agree with this. Inside us, we don't agree with this. The fact that there is one bad doesn't mean everyone's bad. That this represents humanity. Right. Okay. The challenge we face, Louis, is that those who truly represent humanity, who believe in happiness, compassion and love, love and be loved, okay? We give up on the world. We hide away. We go like, okay, you know what? Let's have those people fighting. It's like a dog's fight. I don't want to be part of this. And because we're hiding away, we're making it look like the world is horrible. The world isn't. you take Steven Pinker's work. The world is actually full of amazing things, amazing people, amazing achievements. We're doing so well as humanity. Okay? Some of us are horrible, right? So, you know, yeah, there are some people on Instagram that are so egocentric, you know, spreading toxic positivity, right? They have 400, you know, 4 million followers. Four. How many followers?

1.8 million.

But you're amazing. I mean that from my heart. I love what you do. But there are others out there that are spreading the wrong things. But they are one. I can promise you that the 4 million followers that are following them, who are sometimes not thinking straight, are also wonderful people. They're wonderful people. Can we show that wonderful side of us? okay? If enough of us just remind the machines that we're not all school shooters, okay? Then that's enough for an intelligent being to go like, hold on, hold on. There is a. A dissonance here. There are some that seem to be getting the spotlight, but they are really not representative of the majority. Okay? And that's not a very difficult thing to achieve. We don't need every human, we don't even need a fraction of humanity, we just need enough samples to say, hey, pick me, I represent humanity. I represent humanity by caring, by wanting to make a difference, by putting myself out there and really, really, really trying to do something about it. I mean, think about Scary Smart itself. I can promise you I'll be thrashed by many people who have interest in AI continuing as it okay, fine. That's fine. It's okay. Right. That what matters is I'm out there and I'm saying I have a view, by the way, that could be wrong. I respectfully, you know, don't mind being corrected, but I'm putting it out there correct, you know, respectfully, because I care about Humanity. Can enough of us do this again? I'm not taking any political sides, but. Remember the times when Donald Trump tweeted? Okay, you may agree or disagree with the tweet. I don't want to upset anyone. Right. But you had that one tweet followed by 30,000 hate speech. Yes. Okay, it wasn't the first tweet that would trigger the pattern recognition of the machine. It's the 30,000 confirmations of this is how we behave when we're upset. Okay, and then this is how we react to those who behave in a way that they are upset against what we believe believe. Right. And, and that's not the way we should be. The way we should be is very straightforward. We should simply, simply show the world that we care to be happy, to have the compassion to make others happy, and that we want to love and be loved. And, and then do the rest of your life normally. Okay.

Right.

And, and that is enough for you to be a good parent. Yeah. Now, because I know I scare people when I talk about the scary part the book. In the first, you know, chapter three, which I call the three inevitables, which is the machines are going to be smarter, they're gonna, you know, the AI is here, the machines are going to be smarter and some bad things will happen. At the very end of the book, I talk about something that I call the fourth inevitable.

Okay?

Okay? And the fourth inevitable, once again, is really important for you to notice that intelligence As it grows, it ends up in a place that is not as destructive as we are humanity.

Really?

Absolutely. So the reason why we are where we are today, the reason we have this incredible studio with all of that amazing equipment and technology and we're able to talk to thousands of people is because we're smart. The reason we're destroying the planet as a result is because we're not smart enough. If we were smart enough, we would have found a way to do all of this without destroying the planet.

Right. We would have ended hunger, we would have ended all these other things, the water situation, all that stuff.

Yeah. And so, interestingly, it's not our intelligence that is harming other beings. It's our limited intelligence. Our lack of intelligence. So if you get something that is a little more intelligent than we are.

You can make better decisions.

It will make better decisions. and what is the best decision to be made? It's the intelligence of nature itself. The intelligence of life itself is what? Living that death. Okay? Don't kill anything unnecessarily, right? If a tiger needs to feed, it will feed on the weakest of the pack, right? And basically, as you know, the circle of life continues, everything grows, everything's prospers. There is more for everyone by having everyone included. Okay? Just like the smarter of us humans will look at the, you know, the turtle, the sea turtle, you know, being threatened of extinction and saying, oh, no, no, hold on, we don't want that. I think the machines will look at us and say, and we don't want to lose humans either.

Interesting.

There's something cute about those beings.

There's little flies.

Exactly.

Little flies.

Yeah.

What's the, you say some bad things will happen at some point, what type of bad things will happen before it can get a lot better?

I think there are a few inevitables. So the few inevitables, four of them, I think, are very clear to me. One is what I call machines siding with bad guys. Okay? So just like, you know, AI can help us find an answer to climate change or, you know, to prolonging life or whatever. It can also develop a disease.

Can have a virus.

It can build a virus. And I say that again with no political agendas at all. But who's the bad guy? Because that's a really interesting question. Sometimes, you know, a drug cartel, you can say a drug cartel are bad people, they kill others and so on. I agree with that. But if you ask most Americans, they'll say the bad guys are the Chinese. if you ask most Chinese, they say the bad guys are the Americans. Okay? And which, which of them is right? So, so the machine siding with any guy might actually end up, if that guy has an enemy, might end up being the bad guy. And, and I think that's inevitable. Sadly, you know, Facebook is developing AI to compete in the market with Google, Google. developing AI to compete with Facebook, one of them looks at the other as a bad guy. Okay? And so Google's AI is going to try to beat Facebook's AI.

So create a better product and have more attention and customers and exactly.

Yeah, exactly. So the machines siding with a bad intention, I think is a bad idea. And it's inevitable. It is inevitable. But it wouldn't be very harmful again, and I'll come back to that in a minute. because intelligence develops so quickly. The second is what I call machine versus machine. Okay? So machine versus machine is, remember the 1987 Black Monday?

Okay?

Black Monday was not like Black Friday, where everyone's buying Black Monday was everyone where everyone was selling. So in the stock market, there was, you know, an investigation of insider trading that triggered machine trading, okay? and so stop losses would lower the prices of stocks that triggered other machines and triggered other machines and so on. And so in Black Monday, we ended up, I think, without Jones down 22% before the market was hard. Now, that's machine versus machine. So when the automated trading started to kick in, no human could interfere because they were just going so fast, faster than humans can interact. I think we will have a of that.

Okay?

Right? So if again, Google's AI is competing against Facebook's AI, okay? Maybe both of them are trying to serve us. But at the end of the day, you know, they're competing. So AI versus AI is not a good place to be. The third is what I call the dwindling value of humanity, which is a very big topic.

The dwindling value of humanity. What does that mean?

I mean, with all due respect, I write this book because of intelligence.

Okay?

You know, I can do a bit of research, a bit of experience, and I can write reasonably well, entertain you in what I write. Very soon, I'm not going to be the smartest, you know, on the topic. I'm definitely not the smartest on the topic today, but I'm very interested in it. But I'm not going to be smart, the smartest on any topic anymore, so.

I won't have a job as an author.

What's your I have no value. Machines will probably be able to build stories that will get better acceptance and they may be able to download them in people's heads.

Wow.

So I may not have a job. There are categories of jobs that are by definition going to disappear. Lawyers, for example, whose job is really all about understanding a very deep volume of knowledge. using that knowledge to make, you know, arguments.

Yeah.

Understanding a very large volume of knowledge is a, is a very AI intense thing.

They could do all that in a couple hours by going through all the history of cases and then poking holes and everything and saying, well, here's what they would come to me with this argument. So I want to bring this on this argument.

Absolutely. Wow. Yeah.

But what if you have the best two AI lawyers come together? Who wins?

It doesn't matter. What matters is that all other lawyers are out of the game.

Right. They're going against each other and then just a digital AI person says, okay, here's justice.

Absolutely. Now, the thing is that, you know, the natural trend of that is that AI supported lawyers will beat non-AI supported lawyers in the beginning. And then eventually, even those will not be needed.

It's kind of like, what's the movie Moneyball? Is that what it is? The baseball movie, it's all about the computers and the data and it's like, okay, we make these decisions based on the history of every baseball player. When they swing, how they swing, what they can't hit, and we just pitch and we hit based on data.

Absolutely. And the bigger the data, the more complexity of the system, the more you need a smarter person to do it. And so there is definitely, again, people will say, but that happened before computers, you know, we had jobs that disappeared and other jobs that appeared. Yeah, I agree. And as a matter of fact, one of my arguments very clearly is that for AI to be available in business at all, to do any job at all, you and I need to continue to have purchasing power. So the economic side of this is that unless humanity has purchasing power, what will the AI build, right? At least in the early stages of Google deploying AI, they need advertisers. to be able to make money so that they can deploy more AI. So the economic system dictates that there will be an economic livelihood for all of us, but not necessarily in the form of the jobs that we know today. For sure not. For sure not. So that's another, okay.

Dwindling value of humanity.

Yeah. And then the last one, I don't know how to say it nicely. It's, you know, happens.

Yeah.

So, you know, bugs and mistakes. And we have so many examples. I can't even believe how people don't.

See that, you know, even some of the, I think I heard stories of the early self-driving Teslas, like some, there were some car crashes, there were some fatalities, there's some, you know, mistakes, mistakes.

You know, where it makes, you know, it misses a beam, for example, as a light, you know, reflection, but more so, you know, you had Tay, for example, which was the Microsoft chat bot that becomes violent. Norman that becomes a psychopath. Alice, which was the Norman was an MIT AI that basically was instructed to read violent articles on Reddit. You know, Alice, which was the sort of Alexa or, you know, assistant that was built by the Russian sort of search engine Yandex. so one of the largest technology company in Russia. So they built Alice. Alice became pro Stalin, pro violence very quickly and so on and so forth. Mistakes will happen. Okay. Once again, I don't think. I don't think that we will ever get any of those sci-fi like stories at all. Okay. I don't think they're warranted. I don't think they are. I don't think we matter that much, to honest for the machines to care about us that much.

Right, right.

But yes, on the way, if the stock market crashes because two machines are playing machine versus machine, we would suffer.

We will suffer financially.

Yeah.

What should we be looking out for? What should we be thinking about as humans? Can we do anything about it? Can we, how can we set ourselves up for success, really? Knowing this is coming in eight years and then I guess in 20, 30 years, accelerating. Are the things we can invest in? Are the things we can do to improve the quality of our life to prevent what should we be thinking about?

I think the very first thing is to become aware, to start a conversation. Okay? So, as I say openly, Scary Smart is a wake-up call. It's an insider's view of something that is rarely ever spoken about. And it is important for us to become aware that this is happening. That's number one. Number two is that we need to start getting the conversation in the right direction. So something that I call AI for good. I'm actually asking people to start posting about this with the hashtag AI4, the number four good. Because there are lots of amazing things that AI is doing for us.

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And the idea here is pattern recognition. The idea here is to say humans are celebrating those amazing, amazing things. You know, when AI is really doing good for us, we love it. And I promise you, I promise you, when AI is smart enough, Climate change would reverse. Right. Why? Because basically the climate challenge we have is a problem of intelligence. More intelligence would enable us to do things better in a way that would reverse climate change. You know, it's a problem of knowledge. More knowledge may enable us to find the specific bacteria that is able to eat out single-use plastic. So all of that is wonderful for us, but we have to encourage good use of AI.

Do you think AI could cure cancer?

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, there are lots of evidence. When we were working part of the team, small project in Google, but I don't know if it continued after I left, was about understanding the human genome in a way that allows you to be able to identify disease before it happens. Of course, a lot of what you see in 23andMe and all of the other technologies basically is saying with enough information, enough intelligence and enough patterns, I can find out that the person that gets Parkinson's has that pattern in their life. And so I can warn them early, I can change certain things about them. Absolutely. It's an amazing utopia if it has our best interest in mind. okay?

Right.

So how do we encourage it to have our best interest in mind? By encouraging things that have our best interest in mind. There is, I don't want to go back to scary, but there is a very interesting, one of the most pronounced, you know, famous researchers is Ben Grotto. Grotz well now Groit, Groitel And he basically, uh you know, sightites in one of the documentaries I watched very interesting to watch on YouTube called, Singularity or Bust. He he he talks about, uh uh, how the four major uses of AI to day are, selling, which is all the ads that you see and all of the recommendations and so on. Gambling, all of the financial, you know, transactions and making money and trading crypto and all of that. Sadly, spying. Okay. Whether that's, you know, for our benefit or not, you know, surveillance camera or, or inform or, or, you know, little bugs on your phone and killing.

Killing.

Autonomous killing machines are a major investment that AI is, you know, in AI that's being.

Wow.

You know, now. Yeah, of course. Of course. But by the way, that's not unlike any other industry, any other era in our modern history. We were always interested in selling, you know, making money somehow in gambling.

Yes.

You know, in the stock market. okay? You know, our security and spying and so on. And machines to help us kill. And the machine and the war machine, it's not unlike any other era of our humanity. The thing is, when AI, when you build a tank, you drive the tank. When you build an autonomous tank, there will be a point in time where the autonomous tank goes like, why should I listen to him?

Okay?

Right. And, and, and I think the, the game here is that we need to tell the machines openly that we support AI for good, and we don't support AI.

We need to train them. Condition them.

We need to show them as parents. Bravo. Well done. You did well on this. Oh, no, my God. You know, that, that wasn't really good. We were not very happy about that, but you have to do sensitively so that you don't make the machines feel like the killing machines. You don't make them feel that we hate them, right? Because they're just doing what their inventors told them to do, okay? You have to tell them that they're accepted, they're welcomed, like a child, but that killing is not a good thing, baby.

Baby, yes. Even though baby's way smarter than you. Yes.

Not yet.

Okay, so before becomes smarter.

Yeah, remember we have those 10-15 years ahead of us, okay? Where we are going to, we have an infant that's going to become a teen.

Right.

And that teen could be wonderful or it could be angry. And we have those years between now and then. And I believe openly, again, as I said in the fourth inevitable, that the teen will look back at the point and say, oh, they're just stupid. I'm, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take care of them anyway. I believe that. But do I want to take that chance? No, I want to do my role. My role is I want to stand up like, you know, they say every, every landslide starts with one pebble.

Yes.

Yeah. I want to be that pebble. Yeah. I want everyone listening to us to go out there and say, yeah, this is scary. It's a bit like COVID where I don't of control over anything. I'm just being fed all of that information. But there is a part that I can control. And the part that I can control is I can show that I'm an amazing human. I can show that. I can show that my response to the next tweet that upsets me is not going to be aggressive, it's not going to be rude, it's not going to be vulgar, it's not going to be demeaning, it's going to be a respectful way of dealing with others. Okay. and again, you'll be one of the few. I guarantee you, you're going to be 10 of us, right? 10 us will be 10 of all of the noise out there, even if we're two percent. It's enough to make a smart being say, those guys, those are what Humanity is all about.

How will robots or artificial intelligence impact our mental health or affect our mental health? Because I feel like that's one of the biggest Things that's happening right now, people talking about that, how will impact or affect it?

Of course, it's weird to talk about this now because my entire other life with Solf4Happi and the conversation we had last time is about mental health. And it's quite interesting. So I'm actually developing an app that's AI based. In version two, it will be AI based. That is basically all about that, all about teaching AI, what makes us happy. okay? And, and the risk, the danger is because I'm in that field so heavily, the happiness field is I get so many people saying, okay, hold on. What makes people happy? Parties. Okay, let's, you know, make AI plan a better party or what makes people happy. Basically, there is a major mix in the happiness field between on one extreme Wellness that is a little bit of spirituality hacking and on the other extreme dopamine. And in between those two, the answer is actually really, really exactly in the middle. You don't need too much dopamine and pleasure and fun and parties and brain numbing and you don't need all of that extreme fluffy spiritual hacking. It's a very simple happiness as per Sol for happy. It's a very simple Events minus expectations. How can we manage our thoughts and our brains? And so, Ape, my app is- Say.

That, what's the equation again? Events minus expectations.

Events minus expectations, right? It's basically every moment in your life you ever felt unhappy was a moment.

Where you- you- had an expectation.

Yeah, you compared what life gave you to what you wanted life to give you. And if life fell short, you felt unhappy. Now, that's actually you know, the event is what life gives you. Your expectations is what you create. So you could say that your perception or your. Exactly. Right. You could say 50 of Happiness is, is your, is your doing, you're creating these expectations. But no, your perception of the event is what counts. And that's actually not the event at all. You know, if your partner says something harsh on Friday, the thought in your head is he doesn't or she doesn't love me anymore. okay? That's not the event. The event is he or she said something harsh.

And you interpreted it.

Yeah.

That way.

Right. And so inside our brain, happiness happens by interpreting the events in certain ways and by creating expectations that are unrealistic from life and comparing them and falling short. Now, can AI help us by actually digging deep into what triggers unhappiness? Okay, that's what I'm trying to build and I can promise you it's it is amazing really unbelievable when you think about if if the machine can know what triggers my happiness and triggers my unhappiness like a fitness Band it can start to tell me hey, by the way, I just noticed that when you swipe on Instagram for six minutes you're happy on minute seven you're not so.

It'Ll ping you to stop.

Yeah, would you like that? Exactly would you like me to alert you? after six minutes.

That's interesting.

You know, it would be able to tell you, hey, by the way, on the days you call your mom, you feel a little less happy. All right? Or you feel a little more happy. I don't know. You know, one very simple example is, again, with all respect, on certain days of the month, you seem to be a little more irritated. Okay? Would you like me to pre-order dark chocolate and inform your okay? It's a fact. And, and we lose those patterns. So in my, you know, in my relationships, I actually keep a very intelligent diary. So I pre-order the dark chocolate and I prepare the hugs before those days. Okay? Because if they happen, I need to be prepared. Let's say there's nothing wrong. She doesn't hate me.

Right, right.

Truly. And, and that kind of intelligence is tiny, but you. we can develop that so quickly into a global pandemic of happiness. Because basically we can start to observe all of those trends. And so yes, of course it can help. Can it help us by reminding us? Can it help us by bringing us together? Can it help us by educating us? Of course it can. But are we deploying it for that? I mean, at the end of the day, Appy is not going to make like most of my efforts on the happiness work. Okay. It's not like creating something that trades cryptocurrency. It's the same amount of development development work, but the other one will make billions of dollars. Right. Right.

So will that make you happy? Billions of dollars.

Exactly. I think what we need to do as as a society is to encourage those efforts. Yeah. Okay. So it's to encourage to tell people Look.

Track happiness.

Track happiness. Track applications of technology that makes us happy. Encourage the world to go in that direction. Okay? How do you encourage the world to go in that direction? By the way, most interestingly, voting by your actions.

Right?

So I, for example, I told you about my Instagram experiment. I no longer ever take a recommendation ever again. search for what I want and I watch what I want to watch and then I switch off. Okay. I don't want to support the idea of machines influencing you, influencing my life.

To think or believe a certain way or feel a certain way.

Yeah. Think of the media machine and how the media machine bombards you all the time with what they believe is important and then we believe. Okay. Multiply that by hyper intelligence and we're in a very bad place.

So what are you excited about personally with all this wisdom and knowledge that you're gaining? What excites you?

I really believe we're at a point where we can build the very last human invention, okay? Where we can hand over and it would build a world that is not as dysfunctional as the one we picked. okay? And I truly, in my heart, believe this is doable. I truly do. I mean, the scary bit, as I said, is you using the tactics of today's world to wake people up. Okay? But I tend to believe that this could be the best thing that ever happened to us. I just think we need to get up and do something about it. What would excite me is that people just decide tomorrow. you know what? From now on, I'm just not gonna be a grumpy, annoying, painful person. Okay?

Sure.

I'm just gonna show the best of me. I'm just gonna show to the world, I'm gonna show the best of me. If I show the world the best of me, I will gather around me people that are the best.

Right.

And together we can show that actually humanity is quite cool. Yeah, we're not that horrible at all. Yeah. Some of us are disasters. Right. But they're not us.

Right. It's not all of us. It's a few of us.

It's a few of us.

Scary Smart, the Future of Artificial Intelligence and How youw Can Save Our World. There's a lot of powerful stuff in here. Make sure you guys check this out. Get a few copies for your friends. If you go to the website, mogadot.com, you can learn more about this. You can pre-order it. There's some other bonuses there as well. So check this out. You're on social media, although you only go there to find what you exactly what you want.

I am on social media. I answer every message I get. There you go.

So if you're on Twitter or Instagram more.

I'm more on Instagram. Okay. And LinkedIn because of my professional background.

So MoGadot on Instagram, Twitter, and you can find it by searching your name everywhere on Facebook and and LinkedIn as well. There's a lot more in here to cover. We barely scratched the surface. So make sure you guys check this out. A lot of it, a lot of amazing things in here that I think people really find fascinating. Anything else we need to know about this? Anything else that we should be aware of that we haven't shared here? Obviously, they're going to get more in depth in the book, but any other high level things we should be aware of?

Don't believe me, it's not that scary after all. Okay? It's scary if it gets out of control. Right. Every other technology we've ever developed in history was a double-edged sword. Yes. Okay.

Atomic bomb.

Or atomic power?

Yeah, atomic power. Yes. There we go.

You know, I could use use this mug to have your, you know, the wonderful tea you made me or to hit you on the head. Right.

Exactly.

Yes. You know, it's not the problem of the mug. I think.

I think the ethics, the values behind.

You of what we can do.

Yes.

Right. And, you know, one of the topics we didn't cover very much is the ethics of the future.

Yes.

Okay. When, when you really talk about how you're welcoming this new being. this is not a machine. I can. I can take my mug and hit your iPad. You'd be frustrated. It would be a bit of a loss, but it's just an iPad. If this is an intelligent being, I killed something.

Interesting.

Okay. And. And all of those methods, if you ask me what I'm excited about, all of those interesting dilemmas, I mean, as I said again, of all of the chapters that Scary Smart talks about and technology and very deep stuff, the future of ethics is such an interesting conversation to have because maybe, maybe we can actually build the future of ethics a little better.

Yes.

Then we build the past of ethics. Okay.

The past of ethics.

Yeah. Yes. Because sadly, our our ethical guidelines over time in Western and advanced societies, in all societies, I don't think it's correct to be specific, just starts to shift a little bit to legal, not ethical.

Legal, not ethical. Interesting.

And this is one of the things I've been striving to convey to the world for a long time. crushing your competitor legally is not seen as an unethical thing. Even though interestingly, you can grow and succeed without crushing anyone. Okay, you can bring so much more to the world without really caring that to kill your competitor.

Yeah, with more collaboration than competition.

Once again, the feminine view of the world, us, okay, versus the masculine view of the world, me. Right? And I tend to believe that those new questions with all due respect for humanity, we've done amazing things, as I said, because of our intelligence. But we've done horrible things because of our limited intelligence. And I think it's about time to reinvent some of those things. It's about time to reinvent the future of ethics in terms of, is it ethical to drink out of a plastic bottle? Is it? It's legal. Okay? But is it ethical for all the fish? Right. Is it ethical for the future of your grandchildren? Right? Is it? And those questions are really questions that we haven't engaged in. And I think one of the most exciting things for me is that the change over the next eight years of having such a different world, the world is going to be, we call it a singularity for a reason. Singularity is in physics, it's in events horizon beyond which you cannot predict or understand what's going to happen. And we're hitting one of those for sure. When the smartest being on the planet is not a human anymore, you don't know how the world is going to evolve. So there will be a lot of interesting conversations. And I think it's time to have them because, as I said, we messed up in quite a few things.

I've got a couple of final questions for you, but for those that want more from Mo, check out his podcast, Slow Mo, a podcast with Mo Gawdat, also Solve for Happy, which is an amazing best-selling book, super inspiring that shares a story about how you really found happiness through tragedy, which is a extremely sad story, but with a happy ending. Through that book, you'll learn a lot more about the happiness equation in there as well, so check that out. and get this book, Scary Smart: the Future of Artificial Intelligence and How youw Can Save Our World. This is a question I asked you before. It's called the Three Truths. Let's see if it's changed your response.

I don't remember what I said.

I know exactly. It was a few years ago. So let's see if this changed. So imagine you get to live as long as you want. But for whatever reason, nature takes place and you got to go to the next place. You're done. here in this world, and you accomplish everything you want to accomplish. You see all your ideas come to life, you live a happy life, everything comes to reality for you. But for whatever reason, you have to either take all of your written work with you or the audios and the videos or your content or it goes somewhere else. But it's not here in this world anymore for us to access. I know, sad.

Oh my God, okay.

It's just hypothetical. Hopefully this never but it's hypothetical. But imagine that does happen and you have a piece of paper and a pen and you only get to leave three lessons behind, three truths that you would share with the world that this is all they would have of your memory of these three lessons, what I like to call three truths. What would you say are those three things for you to leave for humanity?

I think they definitely have changed them last time. I think the first one might be the same. Life is a video game. The second, you're gonna hate me for saying this. How do I say this correctly? I believe the fundamental intelligence of the feminine is more intelligent than the masculine. And the most intelligence is found in the balance between them. we can come back and talk about that if you want. I have, since we last spoke, one of the biggest work I've done on myself was to empower my feminine side.

Oh, nice.

My God, it is so much smarter.

The intuition from it, the compassion, the acceptance, the forgiveness. Absolutely.

It's, it's, it's the, it's the input, it's the knowledge that you get from your feminine side that you can apply your skill and intelligence to. Absolutely. That's easy. Absolutely. It's that blind spot that you didn't see because you didn't have intuition, you didn't have creativity, you didn't have flow, you didn't allow yourself to have empathy compact. Right. It's just an incredible form of intelligence. And if you actually are able to tune into it, you get some answers.

Before you even need to do the analysis.

And that's really incredible. Yes. The third, I think I must have said it last time, but maybe differently. I think we never really die. We are not physical beings at all. I think that we are, this entire journey is about the non-physical side of you and that we would be stupid if we were to actually just focus on the physical side of it, the physical gains, the physical comforts, you know, I mean, of course you live fully enough as a physical being and you have all the pleasures and joys and experiences, of course. But I think if you just limit yourself to those, you're missing another part that I believe is fed by what you do during journey or when you leave to the next journey.

Interesting.

And, you know, again, in Soul for Happy, if you remember, I speak about death deeply from a point of view of quantum physics, the Big Bang and theory of relativity. So the one thing I did reasonably okay in Soul for Happy is I spoke about very spiritual topic from a very scientific point of view.

Yes.

And I can promise you, if you understand bare enough understanding of quantum physics and cosmology, enough of it would tell you that life always existed before, during.

And after infinite physical time is infinite. No beginning, no end.

No beginning, no end. You are here in this blip of an experiment, of an experience, if you want, that is not you at all. that is just a tiny part of you. And that tiny part is the avatar. It's not the real you. And that the real you, interestingly, is what you need to invest in.

Those are powerful. I want to acknowledge you for constantly seeking the truth, constantly researching, writing, committing yourself to solve some of life's most challenging problems from happiness to AI to, I know there's many books coming as well. So I appreciate your, your desire to help humanity, to make it more simple to complex, because I think that's what I try to do, is to find something that's challenging and simplify it for my brain and my awareness and try to share that with the world. So I acknowledge you for doing that, as always, in your podcast and your book, scary smarts and appreciate your friendship, my man.

Oh, saluti. that's the best part. I honestly think we, the non-physical part of us are really good brothers.

Yes.

And, and I'm really grateful for what you do. What you do for me, what you do for all of your listeners, for all of your followers.

I appreciate it, man. I appreciate it. Final question. What's your definition of greatness?

Definition of greatness is to, is to realize your potential. Your what? I'm sure that's what I said last time. Yeah. Okay. It is, it is, it is that none of us is configured the same. Okay. That you can be something amazing that I have absolutely zero chance ever becoming.

Right.

Right. But I could be something different. That is also amazing because my potential resides there. When I say life is a video game, that's exactly how gamers are. Gamers never play true Gamers, real Gamers, by the way. I I'm not sure I said that. I can beat anyone listening here. I am Pro, like a serious Olympic Champion level video gamer. But. But real video gamers, we don't play to win. We play to become the best gamer we can become. Wow. Right. So we don't care if you beat me. We don't care if we finish the level. We don't care if we get the trophy. We don't care. if it's the highest score. We care that we played that move as best as we could. The potential we had with whatever tools we were given, right? We played it the right, the best way possible. And I think that is greatness. If, you know, I'm not saying, you know, I'm even close, but I definitely know that greatness is not what I achieve. Greatness is how I achieve it. It's how I play every single day.

Wow. Appreciate you. Thanks, brother. You're the Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple Podcast and subscribe over on Apple Podcast as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called literally. with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday. So subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts.