How To Raise Children In An Unjust World w/Dr. Traci Baxley EP 1179

This is episode number 1179 with Dr. Tracy Baxley.

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former.

Pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness.

Thanks for spending some time with me today.

Now, let the class begin. Welcome back, my friend. Today's guest is Dr. Tracy Baxley and she is a professor, consultant and parenting coach and speaker. And as an educator for more than 30 years with degrees in child development, elementary education and curriculum and instruction, she specializes in diversity and inclusion, anti-biased curriculum and social justice education. And she's written a new book called Social Justice Parenting. In a world that's so divided, it's become even more critical that we raise the next generation to create a more inclusive, just and fair world. So in this episode, we break down the most important principles all parents should know right now. How to raise children without over parenting them. The important conversations you should have with your children often. How to navigate raising children in a world filled with injustice. What adults should avoid saying to their children and so much more. And if you're enjoying this at any moment, make sure to send this to a few people that you think would be inspired and empowered to help them improve their life as well. And if this is your first time here, click the subscribe button over over on Apple Podcast or Spotify and stay notified and up to date from the latest and greatest from the School of Greatness podcast. Each week we've got some incredible content just like this, and I want to give a shout out to the fan of the week. This is from Joe, who left a review over on Apple Podcast and said, I love that every episode contains different information and resources to apply to my life. It's everything from sleep to relationships to mental health to physical health. Love the content and love how well-rounded it is to help me become more well-rounded myself. So big thank you to Joe. And if you want a chance to be shouted out make sure to leave a review over on Apple Podcasts right now because every week we are shouting out the fan of the week. Okay, in just a moment, the one and only Dr. Tracy Baxley.

Do you think there's any parents out there today who had parents who were emotionally available, had tools about communication, self-regulating their emotions, not taking things personally, Do you think that's any parents had that?

I don't think anybody does that completely, right, as human beings.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah. So we have to learn how to do it more often or when we're not doing it well to be open about that. Like I go to my kids and like, you know what? I screwed up. Yeah. I should not have said that or I shouldn't have said it in that way. This is what I really meant. I was feeling hurt or angry or hungry or whatever at that time. And what I said to you does not align with our core values of our house.

So taking accountability and responsibility is important for parents.

So kids will know, okay, this isn't right, right? This is a mistake so that when they are making the same mistakes, they don't leave their house thinking that this is just the way of being, but that these are things that we are growing in. Oh, okay. These are the roles that we're growing in.

How do parents have the awareness to actually take accountability and not just say, no, I'm never wrong, and my way is the highway? My Way or the Highway is, I mean, how do parents learn that?

I think just being open, right? You have to be open to relearning and unlearning. I think reading things like our books, right? Podcasts are really great. I think that people just have to be open to learning, no matter how small the steps are. And I think the other thing is reflecting on your own childhood what it felt like for you and say, okay, this made me feel this way when I was little and I realized I'm doing the same thing. So then let me figure out how to unpack that one thing so that my kids are not feeling what I felt when I was a kid.

Right. I'm excited about this. I mean, there's a lot of messy conversations happening in the world, obviously, more so in the last couple of years. about how to really navigate conversations, how to navigate social justice, anti-racism, all these different things. What do you think a parent should be equipped with before their kids are able to communicate with them? What do you think should be the baseline of their understanding on how to raise conscious, compassionate kids?

I think, first of all, you have to recognize it is messy and you're gonna make mistakes, right? It's not a straight path. It's very windy and there's no one right way of getting there. So I think walking in with that idea that I'm gonna get it wrong, it's gonna be uncomfortable, being comfortable with being uncomfortable is really important. And not really thinking that you have to make huge changes, right? If you are moving forward a little bit today, that's good for you. And that social justice doesn't mean that you are at every rally. I really believe that social justice and activism really starts in your own house. Like, what are you saying to your children? What are you reading with your children? What kind of conversations are you having with your own children? How you're raising them? What are the core values in your house? That really is the start of really social justice work. Because my little saying is what you do in the privacy of your own homes shows up in the public spaces. It's like, what kind of kids are we raising? Do we want to raise the kids who are kneeling on the necks of other people? Because if you talk to Derek's friends, they say he's a good guy. He was a nice guy. So do you want that to be your child? Because you're not having these hard conversations and you're thinking that they're learning, they're picking it up, They know better. They're good people. We're finding that that's not enough anymore. You know, there's a difference between raising good people and raising pro-justice kids.

For sure.

You know, the activists, the agitators, the ones who are proactive and standing in the gap for other people.

Absolutely. I like that you said it's messy and you're probably not going to get it right a lot of the times as a parent. Even if you think you've been educated, you're still going to say the wrong thing to your kids. It's going to be messy in some ways. In terms of the messiness with social justice or raising them to be as conscious as possible, there's still gonna be people that are believing in another way, that are gonna think that your way is the wrong way, and they're gonna be very aggressive in their stance with their beliefs against you. So how do people deal with the cancel culture that's happening? Even when you feel like what I'm doing is right, I feel like what I'm doing is just, or I feel like I'm having good intentions, and it being messy, but then being judged by your friends, your family, your community, if you're standing up for something, how do people navigate that when they also just want to fit in and be light and, you know, survive and just not be made shamed for their, you know.

How do you balance? Right? Yeah.

How do you deal with that?

I think if you are really active in, like, the anti-racist work, you are going to lose people.

Ah, yes.

You are. You are. There's no way around that. So it depends on how important the work is to you. And your belonging may have to be with a different group of people. Right. Right. As you start to change and grow, sometimes the people who we used to hang out with or the people that we used to be in our inner circles, they may fall off. And you have to be aware and prepared for that. And I think People don't want to see performative anti-racist or activist work, right? They don't want to see people just putting stuff on their social media and then never addressing it again. And so I think coming from it from a sincere way, saying that now I'm at the point where I know I need to do better, right? Now I'm at the learning stage. and I am learning and growing and listening. And even if I'm not saying much, it's because I'm listening. And I want to take in and get more knowledge and stand in the gap using my platform, my power, my whatever, in ways that other people's voices are being heard. So I think oftentimes People are being canceled because they are, instead of staying standing for the work, they're really standing for themselves in the middle of the work, right? And so I think less talking, more listening, more allowing those who are being marginalized to be in the front while you're in the back, helping and supporting and empowering Yes. In ways that you're following and not leading.

Right, yeah. You've been doing this work for what, 30 years now? Is that right?

30 years, yes.

30 years.

It's evolved.

Yes, on childhood development and education and parenting. Exactly, yes. And you've been married for 25 years, or you've been in a relationship for 25 years, right? Yes. And what has that been like being with a white man in this society for the last 25 years? What was it like in the beginning and how has it shifted and what do you see for the future? for people that are in those relationships.

Yeah, we have definitely evolved. I mean, the great thing about our relationship, which is why we gravitated toward each other's right, our basic foundation and values are the same.

Yes.

Our political views, the same. Our social leanings, the same. So that's our core. Now the way we show up in that is different.

Yes.

Right? Like, there's an episode in the book that I talk about just in the last, this happened during the election, last election or the election before last. We were talking about an issue, I don't remember what the issue was, but as an educator, right, I see things a certain way and as attorney, he sees things a different way, even though we're on the same page with the outcome, but the process is very different. And whatever the topic was, we got into this, It became race-based.

Really?

Mm-. And he said something to me about brainwashing my kids to only see race. And that made me crazy because I'm like, as a Black woman in this country, you don't get to tell me how to raise my Black kids, right? Because we raise our kids to be Black in the world. And in our house, they're whoever they want to be.

Right, because they look black.

Right, right.

So you can't raise them white if you look black.

If you look half black, you're black in America. You're black in America, yes, exactly. And so, you know, we really had to unpack his statement in a way, and for me to tell him why it offended me. And then his point was that we have to teach them to see all perspectives, which I get because that's what I teach. But it came off very kind of one-sided to me. And so we had to unpack it a lot because I said, when it comes to race with our family, you got to take the back seat, right? This is my call. And ultimately we got to where, yes, you're right. And then, yes, you're right. We do have to see multiple, multiple perspectives. So, but we've learned to communicate things like that, you know, like if he says something that I feel is offensive and he doesn't realize it, I have to call him on it.

Yes.

And even when he doesn't understand why, we will have to talk through it again, you know, because he's an attorney, he likes to analyze this case, right? So we, it was a working process. It always is, right? Like any relationship. But generally, I would say he's supportive. He understands what it means for me as a black woman. Our causes are the same. Our love for our kids to live in a better world where skin color is just a fact and not something that could be a weapon. I mean, I have four black boys and I worry about them. And I want to make sure that the world is safe. Yeah. And part of this work that I'm doing is really about not just me protecting, and this is kind of how the social justice parenting thing really kind of got going because I realized it's not enough for me to teach my kids how to be safe and for me to protect my own kids, but I need people like you to see my kids, right? I need other parents, white parents, to say, that's my kid too. And I think we need to get our country in a place that we see the humanness in everybody. So that it's my job to look after your children, your job to look after mine like a big village. And I think that's kind of where all the ways I was trying to raise my kids to do that, I realized it wasn't enough. And then that's where it kind of became a bigger platform.

Do you think it's harder to be, you know, a white married couple, a black married couple, or interracial married couple in America today?

I think it's less about the race and more about the ideology and the core values. Okay. So I think if you and your spouse, your partner, are on the same page with the hard things.

What are the main things for the values they should be on the same page with?

I think the way that you show up in the world, like, For example, in my house, giving back, acknowledging our privilege and ways that we can use privilege for a tool for change and not as a weapon is really important, right? Knowing that we are responsible for other people, right? That's really important in my house. And if my husband didn't believe in that, it would be very difficult to be married to him, honestly. Right. so I think your core value and when I work with families, the first lesson we do together is, do you have core values in your house? What do they look like? Have they been written down? Are they in a place that everybody in the family knows what they are and they know where to find them? If you have older kids, they need to be a part of that too, so that when you are parenting in the world. Your kids are out in the world. You're out at work. You can ask yourself, does this align with micro value? And if it does, I'm going to keep going. If it doesn't, then I need to use those core values to realign me like a GPS.

Right.

And get me back on track. Sure.

So I think what if you're been married, you haven't done that exercise and you realize, okay, we're going to do this and we have different core values.

Yeah. Then that takes some work, right? That may need some outside help. Right. I'm a big proponent of therapy.

Yes, yes, me too.

And sometimes you may need somebody outside to really help you to kind of navigate that space.

And what if your kids are resistant to the core values of the family?

And they may be at first.

Like, no, I don't want to do this.

Yes, yes, and they will be some of them, especially if they're older. I've had, we have family meetings and we have It's like safe space where kids can say and do what they feel, even though it's hard. But they don't get reprimanded in that space.

Really? How often do you do the family meetings?

We used to do it once a week on Sundays after dinner. And now we're down to like once a month.

Yeah, 'cause a couple of your kids.

Are off to college. A couple of you are gone, yes, yes.

And so what does that look like? Is it in 30 minutes? Is it an hour? How does that structure?

It could be 30 minutes, it could be an hour, depending on the topic, right? So we used to, we don't do this as often, but we used to have like a jar where you write concerns, put them in, and we would take like one out a night, you know, on our meeting to say, okay, why is this a concern? What's going on? Sometimes I would put just simple, easy things so it didn't always feel heavy.

Yeah.

But it's where my kids can, it's so important to create safe spaces in their homes, right? That's so important. So it's where they can, say things, tell me things that I know I have to shut up about.

You can't send them to the room.

Right. Ground them for their opinion.

Exactly.

Yes. And then my older kids now, when they want to talk to me, I said, okay, am I listening as a friend or am I looking at listening as a mom? Because that's very different for me. And if they say, I just need you to listen as a friend, I know there's certain things that my mama bear would want to say that I have to kind of restrain myself from saying. So I think sometimes those kids don't want to be doing that, but you just keep doing it and eventually they will. And even if they don't act like they like it, in the back of their heads they come back to it, right? It creates a foundation for them when they're off in their life. I know my daughter now says, Boy, when you used to say X, Y, Z, I get it now. I didn't get it then, but I get it now. So it comes around.

It's good to have those consistent, uncomfortable, meetings or conversations with the family because then you're not just sweeping things under the rug all the time. You're not just trying to hide things. You actually feel like you can kind of communicate how you feel in a safe space.

Right.

As opposed to always hiding it. That's exactly right.

What was the hardest? It also gives them a chance to practice when they're out in the real world.

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. When there's an uncomfortable conversation and when they're an adult, they can actually work through it. Yes, because they have practice. What was the hardest meeting, family meeting you went through? And where you want it, we're like, man, this is just wrong. All my kids are wrong or bad or crazy thinking. They need to all be, you know, sent to somewhere else, you know, private school, boarding school, sent to the room for a month. Was there something like that that ever happened?

I think when we talk about race, it's sometimes can get heated.

Really? From the kids, from your father, from your husband, or from you?

I think from all of us. Really? Wow. And I think because I am, I am a, I feel like as a black mother, I have to teach my kids how to navigate in a black skin. Like it's a must for me. I have failed my kids if I haven't done that. Where my kids, they're so different in how they self-identify. Like my oldest son, who actually has the darkest skin of all of my kids. He's very much like, Mom, I am biracial. I'm not black, I'm not white. And so he's the one that's 6'2, that he has a black male presence. And I say, you know, your presence alone, nobody cares that you're at Harvard, nobody cares that you play piano, nobody cares that you're soft spoken. They're gonna see your 6'2 black male frame, and they're gonna make judgments about who you are. And you have to be prepared for that. And so some of those conversations with teaching my kids how they needed to show up, even when they felt differently about who they are and how they identify. And that's when my husband's like, don't try to brainwash them. Let them discover who they are. And I'm like, it's not that easy. You've lived in your white male skin all your life and there's some things that you didn't have to think about. But there are things I think about every day as a black mother.

What are those things?

Every day.

You think about the most?

I think about, like, I did a post a couple months ago on my, when my son went off to Harvard, about the 10 things that I had to talk to him about to make sure he knew. The first thing was always have your Harvard ID, not even your driver's license. People are going to need to know that you belong in that space. You always write, you always have to be prepared. The other thing is always have your phone charged. They're never, they're There has to be never a time that you can't call me or call somebody to get help. You're going to have to eventually explain to your roommates, your white roommates, why you have all these rules, right? You're going to have that conversation, never be the only person of color in a white space at Harvard. Because I don't want somebody else's sloppy ways of showing up. to become part of your story. And so those are the kinds of things that I am very active in talking to my kids about that sometimes, you know, my kids do the, you know, it's different now. Things have changed, Mom. They're not the same. But when I see things like Breonna Taylor, Trayvon Martin, and I'm like, They're not that different. That's work to changing those things, but you have to also be prepared. So I always talk about with my parents that I work with, less protecting and more preparing. So we want to do those things with our kids. We want to make sure they're safe, but we can't do that in a bubble and we can't do it in isolation.

What are your kids saying about racism in schools? Are they saying it's very racist in the schools they're in growing up and elementary through high school and college? Like you said, it's different now. Is it different for them or is it because they're mixed race that they're not experiencing the same harshness? What is this?

Each of my kids, they've had different journeys. My daughter has had a really tough journey of not being black enough, not being white enough. Really? Yeah, yeah. She felt like she didn't belong in either worlds, right? So she really, I think that was led to some of her mental health challenges, right? The idea of where do I belong?

Wow.

And as a mother, how heartbreaking that is when my whole platform is about belonging, right? So that there has been a time in my own daughter's life where she felt a lack of belonging. And so for me, that probably was the most challenging, most heartbreaking part of time during my parenting. And so she's seen what that looks like. She's felt that.

She felt it. She felt the lack of acceptance or judgment or whatever that might be.

Absolutely, yes.

Is this in middle school, high school, college?

Started in middle. Started in middle.

Okay. So not as much in elementary school, huh?

Not as much in elementary. Yeah, it started in middle school, which is where all of it starts, right? A lot of times. And through high school off and on, and I would say really the last Maybe three years is where she's really kind of got grounded into, I am a black woman, right? And what this looks like for me. And it's okay if I'm not black enough for you. She's starting to develop that agency. That's cool.

How important is shaping the identity of your children as a parent versus allowing them to shape their own identity? And if they lack identity, does that hurt them in their childhood?

That is a really great question because as parents, we want to guide them, right? We want to lead them.

This is who you are. This is what you're gonna do. I want you to do this. This is, yeah.

And that's based on our own fears, our own experiences, our own anxiety, right? And so that takes work to be able to let that go. like, this is a small example, right? My husband and I played sports all through our lives, right? We just knew all of our kids would play sports. Like, that's kind of the natural, you know, for, for many reasons. Right. Health reasons, social reasons, you know, a lot of activities, negative activities are delayed when kids are busy in sports. Right. Yeah. So naturally that we thought our kids would play sports, but we have one. son who is not really into sports. Like he's into science, nature, you know, those kinds of things. And we were like pushing him into sports. And it wasn't until we had to like say, okay, this is us. This is not him to allow him to be who he was. And boy, he's this fantastic smart kid who knows everything about everything in nature. And he's so happy. And so I think We often think we know who our kids should be and we don't allow them to tell us. And I also think sometimes what we think are opportunities really are stressors for kids, right? There's a book I read, is it the problem with privilege or the power privilege? I can't think of the title. But basically, this psychologist is basically saying, The new at-risk kids are the kids who are upper middle class, who have all the opportunities, all the tutors, all the extras, because the parents are pushing this on them and the kids are having so much anxiety around that. And those are the kids that we need to be looking out for because they're hiding all that pain inside until it comes up negatively.

That probably goes against what a lot of people would think, oh, you're so privileged, you've got all the support, this help, you've got this. Private school, whatever it is, like you shouldn't have any problems.

Exactly.

You should be grateful, you should be happy, whereas other people aren't having that opportunity. But you're saying that they might have some pain, hidden pain or shame around something or pressure.

For trying to measure up, right? And my daughter said to me when she was going off to school, you know, when she was dealing with her depression, that What we saw were giving opportunities to her. She felt it was just one more thing she had to be good at.

Ooh, she could just relax and be a kid and be herself.

And I play soccer, that's enough. But then I gotta be good at this. You wanna do piano, you wanna... And the disappointment that she thought we would have if she wasn't good at all these things. And so I think that is the balance we have to look at. The opportunities versus the overwhelmingness that our kids feel like.

How do parents put their own lack of opportunities aside from their childhood? Well, I didn't have this. I want to make sure you have it all. And I'm going to force it down you and you got to do this because I didn't have this. How do parents learn to let go of that? I'm not a parent, so I don't know what that feels like yet. But I want to make sure that I'm preparing myself to not make that mistake.

Yeah, I think one thing we don't do enough of is just listening to our kids. like we're always telling them, we're always talking. Sometimes we just need to sit and listen in quiet spaces, finding time where your kid can lead is really important.

And where your kid can lead.

Yes.

How do parents learn to let their kids lead?

That is not easy. Yes. Yeah.

What does that look like?

I think sometimes it's going out, like on a date with one kid, right? They plan the date. We used to We don't do it anymore because our lives are so busy. But I try to have a date with one kid once a month where they plan the date, they decide what they want to go on and do, not something that I plan. Because in that, you get to know what's important to them. And that's a time that you can talk to them about what's important, how they're feeling. It's like a check-in. And I think we don't check in with our kids enough. And I'm guilty of this too. We're so over-scheduled, we're so busy. that sometimes you just have to take a breath and just check in. How are you feeling? What's going on? What I do, I have all of my kids on a group text. And every now and then I would just say, I'm checking in, you know, give me emoji of what's going on, how you feel.

Emoji, just an emoji. Yeah, keep it simple.

Right. So then I can see, okay, I need to be talking with this one a little bit more because they feel like they just sad face or thumbs down or Whatever. So it helps me connect with them more and saying, okay, this one needs me a little bit more now. And having five kids, I have to decide who needs me at that moment. But I think sometimes the parenting looks a little bit hands off in terms of allowing them space and not always directing and giving and doing. But sometimes our kids, like my son who doesn't do sports, He was very open, you know. I really don't want to do that. I want to go on nature walks. I want to go collect frogs. I want to, you know. And I'm like, Really? And he's into anime, which I know nothing about when he talks to me as a different language, but I have to force myself to listen, you know, because it's important to him. So I think allowing our children to find out what's important for them and it may not be like, listen, when my daughter And my second, third son gave up piano lessons. It was like, ah, devastating to me. Like the sports was devastating for my husband when one of my kids gave that up. And I think he and I helped navigate each other around those hard things. But I think the more we can listen to our children doesn't mean that they're always gonna tell you the right thing, right? So there's some things that they say and you have to say, you- know.

You'Re doing it anyways. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I hear you and thank you for telling me what you say. But as your mother, right, I'm going to have to make the call on this because of my experiences, because of what I see five years from now that you may not be able to see. And sometimes we do have to make that call. But I don't like saying because I said so.

Yeah.

Which I got a lot, you know?

You got a lot.

I got as a parent. I mean, as a kid, you got to. That was it. All right. My dad's. Because I said so. Like, there's no talking about this. There's no talking through this.

What happens to your kids when parents say that over and over again?

I think it stops them from talking to you, right? It shuts down. They don't get to discover who they are and they don't get to lean into the natural curiosity. They don't get a chance to explain what they're feeling so their voices get lost. And if their voices are lost in the house, how in the world will they be able to use it out in the world?

Ooh, right? Wow.

So, I think allowing them have that space in the homes is the way that they practice of showing up in the world.

So, if you don't have, if you're not able to use your voice in the house, how are you able to use it in the world? Or maybe you lash out in the world because you weren't able to use it in the home, or maybe you shut down in the world. That's interesting. So, how can parents create a safe environment for kids to speak up on their opinion or their feelings or their thoughts about something? and the parent maybe feel like, you know, I know they're just chaotic right now or confused, but this is really something they should be doing for a few more years. How do you do both? Keep them, you know, focused on their school and their homework or doing their sport or their lesson or whatever it might be for another year or two, but also listen to their, their needs or wants in that moment.

And that could be the compromise. Listen. I really think this is important for you. Why don't we, if we can agree that you'll do it for six more.

Months, and it's six months on. You go all in.

Yeah, yeah.

You have a smile on your face.

Right.

Yes.

You show up. You show up for six months. And after that, let's revisit this conversation. And let's see if we, there's some adjustments that need to be made. That's good.

Did you do that with a piano situation?

I tried to, but he didn't. Yeah, so I'm like, okay, I'm not gonna force it. Yeah. So I just say, you know, tell me the reasons. This could really be good for you later on in life, you know? And then I have the one kid now who stopped. And he is in middle school and he got keyboarding, you know, piano for one of his electives. And now he's kind of like, he's like, I kind of like it now.

You know what's interesting? It's so funny because I wish my parents would have kept me in piano. You know, later in life, you look back and you're like, they sent me to piano lessons. I think I did three. And I was like just complaining the whole time. I was like, no, I just want to play sports. But I'm like, Man, I really appreciate music now. I wish I could have that skill. I wish they would have kept me in it.

Yes.

But at the time, I was glad they got me out of it. So it's like, how do we, you know, it's like we want something now, but then we regret it later. I have friends who are, their parents speak Spanish, but they don't speak Spanish. And I'm like, what? For me, I'm like, I would do anything to speak another language, right? And your parents chose for the reason they moved here, they wanted you to speak English. Like, I get it. But it's like, aren't there certain things that we as humans should want our children to learn? I don't know. It's just like a messy situation.

And I think too, especially with the language thing, I think society has a big part in that, right? Because when Immigrants came over, the rule was to assimilate. And in that, it means stripping your language, stripping your culture, right? And it's so you have generations of people who lost touch with their homeland, right? And their culture, which is so sad. Because now these, our generation, well, you're not my generation, but your generation, The adults are now saying, I lost all of that, and I wish I could have had that back.

So I think-- It's like, how do you navigate that? The balance of like, man, wishing your parents would have forced you to do certain things. You're like, why didn't you teach me this? I feel like as a parent, there's no matter what you do, you're wrong in some way.

I think we're always evolving as humans, right? And the thing that we We did the best that we could when it was that time, right? And so I think, like I say to my daughter, when we have these conversations about her always, and I'm like, you know what? I did the best that I could at that moment. Looking at it from your perspective now, I totally understand that. And I'm sorry I didn't see that then. But unfortunately for you, but fortunately for your brothers, I can correct that now, right? That's tough. So being the oldest, that's tough. Yes.

Yes.

But I think as we evolved as human beings, our parenting skills evolved too. And I think often we're just doing the best we can at the moment that we can do it.

How do kids learn to forgive their parents for not giving them when they're 18, 25, 35, 50 and say, oh, my parents didn't do this for me and not hold on to that frustration? or anger or resentment or you said because I said so all the time, I just needed you to listen to me. You told me to do this, but I didn't want to do it. You didn't teach me Spanish, whatever it is. How do we learn to forgive our parents as humans?

You answered the question, right? Knowing that they're humans, right? And that we don't always show up the best way. And that at the time that they were doing that, it was the best decision that they knew at that point. And we can't hold on and let it impact the way that we show up for ourselves and for our own children when that's all our parents could give us at the time. Right. And we have to be okay with that, even though it's painful, sometimes traumatic for adults, for kids. But that's all that they had at that point. And I think what I think is really important, and it goes back to this being present, being intentional, being conscious, being self-reflective we have to then look at our own childhood and say, these things are really great that my parents did, and I want to make sure my kids get that same thing.

Right.

These are the things that didn't go well in my childhood, the things that I felt hurtful about, and I am going to be darn sure that that's not going to show up in the way that I parent. And so I think Making hard choices for yourself and being reflective to show up differently.

Yeah, that's powerful.

Yeah.

And how do we raise healthy, conscious, happy, thriving humans without over-parenting?

I think modeling what that looks like as an adult is really important. I think allowing them space for mistakes and grace for mistakes is important. I also think one of the most important things that we can do for our kids is to listen and not always feel like because we have more years, because we have maybe more knowledge that it's always right. And I think we don't give children enough credit for what they know and how they see the world. I mean, they really have natural curiosities that they really should explore when we shut those things down, you know, we shut off opportunities, experiences, and ways of showing up for others. And so I think being very active in listening to our kids who are very different, right? So you need more, if you have more than one kid, there's different ways that you have to show up and being willing to do that.

What would you say then, like, the five core rules of parenting today? in our society. If you're like, here are the five principles you should learn as a parent right now.

I would say self-reflection.

Self-reflection is number one. What does that look like?

It means to think about how you're showing up. Think about your fears, right? Your own anxieties, how they're showing up in your parenting, how I can do things differently. Where do I start? What's the one thing that I can do today? How do I begin to separate my own childhood from my parenting? So I think, and it's a constant, right? The way I showed up yesterday for my kids, it's not the way I want to show up tomorrow, right? So what do I need to tweak? What do I need to do? I know when I was writing the book, when my kids were home, right? Everybody was home during the pandemic. And they would come to me asking questions, and I, would be in the middle of a thought and I would-- Let me focus. Stop it. And so with that, I'm like, okay, this is not the way I want to show up for my kids every day. And so we devise a system, right? I'm going to put a whiteboard here. You write your question down and the minute I take a break, I'm coming to you with that question so we can answer it. So you don't forget, so you don't think what you're saying is not important. So finding ways to reflect on the.

Way you show up and-- Creating boundaries for yourself also.

Yes. Absolutely.

It's not being available for your kids 24/7 to interrupt you whenever you're doing something important for you.

Absolutely.

But also setting ground rules and boundaries is what it sounds like.

And kids need that and they want it.

Structure.

Absolutely.

And okay, so self-reflection.

Okay, self-reflection. The other thing I would say is modeling the, modeling what you want your kids to do and who you want them to be.

By you being it.

By you being it. Yes, right. We can say all kinds of things, but it's in one ear out the other if you're doing something different. So our actions, you know, how you show up, how are you showing compassion, how are you showing kindness, how are you problem solving, you know, how are you leaning into your own curiosities, you know, and what that looks like for your kids.

Right. So being a leader for yourself.

Yes, exactly. And admitting when things are not going well, letting your kids see you do that too. yeah. So the third thing I would say is showing compassion and kindness to yourself. Right. That's the hardest thing for me.

Really?

I have a hard time. I have a lot of negative self-talk when things don't go well for myself. And I have to. I call it the mean girl inside. Right. I have to shut her down. And sometimes, especially with my daughter, I want. I wanted my daughter to hear how I shut that mean voice down.

What are the things your mean girl says and how do you shut her down?

You're stupid, that's not good enough. You're a terrible mom if I make a mistake, right? Or you shouldn't wear that, nobody wants to see you in that if you're on stage. Different things like that I have to, you weren't kind to your kids, what kind of mom are you? A lot of that. Or I'm an empath, so I take on all the work that I do. So when I need to take a break, she will say, How do you get to take a break when people are hurting? Oh, man. So yeah, so I- Man, that's a.

Mean girl outside of your man. That's what I say.

So I have to talk that out loud. So if my kids are having that mean thing going on too, they get to hear how I do that in my head, but out loud, so that they can start doing it.

What do you say to them?

So I'll say, okay, self, I hear you saying that I'm not a good mom, right? I know that's not true, right? I didn't make a good choice, but I know I'm a good mom. So I am going to do something or say something that's going to remind youself that that's just one time, one mistake.

One moment, it doesn't define you.

Exactly, yes. And so having those conversations out loud or having my kids hear me think through a problem, is really important. And then also allowing them to problem solve because it's faster, it's easier. You love your kids, you want to do these things for them. But I do, I try to show up in a way that I'm not doing it for them. Like allowing them to suffer through and work through. Like we were talking about earlier, the messy stuff, in order for them to learn how to do it when there's bigger, higher stakes.

Yes.

Involved. That's cool.

Okay.

Yeah.

So show compassion to self and others. And then number four.

Number four would be be open to getting help.

Oh, yes. Yeah.

So we can't do it all by ourselves. We're not experts in everything. Surround yourself around a village of people who can help advocate for you and can help you fill in the gaps where you need it. It's very hard, I think, as parents, because we don't like to say we get, we don't know as a parent. That's, that's hard. But I think surrounding yourself around people who can support you is really important. And again, it teaches your kids to do the same. We need each other, right? We need to ask for help. There are some things we need to do on our own, but there are some things that we need help with. And it's okay to find the right people and to get the help you need.

I think we pressure ourselves too much or others to be experts at everything in life or to know everything in life. when we don't have the time or the energy to be experts at everything. And one of the things that I feel fortunate to have created for myself is I wanted to learn all these things for myself. So I interview people. I have people like yourself on my show. But I don't have the time to make this my life. Every topic that I interview someone on, I don't have the time to dive into Neuroscience. I don't have time to dive into nutrition and dive into money and investing and, you know, I don't have the time to do everything, make it my life's mission. So, I try to learn what I can and be like, okay, I'm educating enough and then have access to people that I could call upon if I need some support.

I love that. That's a great example.

Coaching, support, help me in my money, help me in my relationships, my nutrition, my fitness, my spirituality. I call upon people for support.

I love that.

I don't try to be the king of every topic, you know? Right. And I think that's, it makes me feel at peace knowing that I have a community of support that I can call upon when I'm struggling.

I love that. I love that.

As opposed to like, I need to know it all, or I'm not gonna call on someone because it's gonna make me look weak. Yes.

Yes. And that is that fear coming in, right? Of worrying about what other people think about you. I love that you put that in the sense of your podcast, but really that's life too, right? Yes, yeah. We need a good team. We need a good village.

You played sports, what sports did you play?

I played softball, soccer, and ran track.

Yeah. And for me, I make this analogy as well, I did track and football and basketball. For me, after sports was done for me, I played arena football for about a year and a half after college. I played with the USA handball team for the last 10 years. But really after I was done playing professionally and transitioned into business, I was like, why would I stop having a coach in my life? When this is what coaches helped me learn the most, gave me discipline and structure, gave me feedback in my sport for that three-month season, they made me better in that sport. Why wouldn't I get coaches in my life? So I have a coach in my relationship. I have a therapist coach for my emotions. I and my thoughts. I have a coach for my investing and my business. I have a coach, I have trainers for my fitness. I have a nutritionist because I want to optimize these things. I didn't have all that when I was broke sleeping on my sister's couch, but I had mentors. I had family support. I had people in my community who were experts. And then as I was able to invest in coaches, I invested in coaches. But I think we should be seeking personal advisors in our life. who are more experts at that thing than us.

Yes.

And there's someone you know who works out consistently or someone who eats better or someone that's got a good relationship that you could find that support with, that I think in your life.

Absolutely.

So I'm always, I'm very passionate about coaches in my life and I'm always telling people, please find support. Find coaches, mentors, family, friends, whatever it is, you know, whether you're investing in it or not. Find someone to help you.

Yeah. And I think too, we're seeing, I mean, I was watching something on, I don't know if I heard it on NPR or something, but about, you know, the rise in mental health issues, you know, post pandemic, right? And the importance of having somebody to have those conversations to talk about, right, is so important. Like you're saying, we know our limits, but if we can surround ourselves around people who can, who know us well enough to know, let me get this out of him, let me support him with that. And I love the analogy of coaches because that's basically what it is, right?

Right.

Yeah.

Absolutely. I mean, you know, LeBron James, after he wins the first championship, doesn't say to himself, you know what? I got this basketball thing figured out. I don't need a coach for next season. I'm gonna do this on my own, 'cause I'm the greatest. I'm gonna go do it on my own. No, he's like, no, how can I surround myself with a better team? How can I find the coach to push me more?

Yes.

So I can stay great.

And he's got meditation coaches, everything.

Everything, right? So it's like, why don't we have coaches in our life? I think sometimes we have been conditioned to think it's, if we can't figure it out on our own, then something's wrong with us.

Yeah, I think that's part of our society, right? we create that monster in our society about being stronger, not asking for help, being able to do things on your own. And we need to just kind of bust that myth.

Absolutely. And I'm so glad that therapy is becoming more mainstream and it's talked about more because, you know, I've been going to therapy every two weeks for this whole year and it's been so helpful for me. just even if I don't have a problem or I don't have any challenges in my mind or my emotions, it's just like, what can I keep improving on? How can I get feedback and be a better person? How can I make sure to set myself up for if something happens in the future and just be prepared? It's just powerful to be able to talk and have someone listen to you. And I'm not saying everyone needs to do therapy, you know, but it's like we should have a space where you talk to someone consistently, your friend, your partner in a safe space.

So I love therapy.

It's powerful.

We don't have enough in the black community, for sure.

Is it acceptable? It's looked down upon.

A few things. One, it's black generations, right? The medical field and black people have not been the best of friends, right? There's been a lot of science experiments tried on blacks, you know, sharecroppers and Tuskegee. He syphilis test, those kinds of things. And a lot of older black people have that in their minds that I'm not letting anybody in my mind. So that's one. The other thing is the religious factor. So black community and Jesus, right? That's a partnership that if you go to therapy, it means I'm not having faith or trusting Jesus to fix it, right? So that's another kind of myth that we're struggling with. And the other thing is financial, right? Therapy is expensive. My therapy, my kids therapy, it's not always covered in insurance. It's out of the pocket, right? And then the last thing, I think it is a lot of therapists are not trained in culturally relevant or responsive therapy. And so there is a anxiety tax, right, that comes along with being black. And if you go to a therapist who is not acknowledging that or not understanding that level, 'Cause they didn't experience that stress right? Yeah, so those are kind of the.

Big-- you- think the black community should only work with black therapists?

I don't. My therapist was not black. My daughter's therapist is not black, but you need somebody to know the black experience in terms of being open to recognize that there's an extra stress or something that comes along with being black or being open to learn that race is a big part of why we need therapy. So, yeah, no, I don't think you have to be black, but I do know there's not enough. I think there's 1% or 2% of the psychologists are black women.

So it's 1% I think.

1%. I think it's 2%. I think the statistics were. So I think there needs to be more because a lot of people feel more comfortable with people like them. I mean, just like whether you would go to a woman or a man, like, you know, like when I get a massage, I'd prefer a woman, you know? But it's just my preference. So some people do have preferences, but I think there needs to be more educated therapists that are of color.

Yes. I'm hopeful that within the last couple of years, with all the challenges that the world is seeing, people wouldn't want to go and serve in the mental health space and the emotional health space more now and see like this is an opportunity where I can serve people and be of value and go into that field. So I hope that happens for people.

Yeah, because there's not enough. We have more patients than we have therapists right now. I know.

Okay, that was the, I think you said the fourth thing was be open to getting help. What would you say is the fifth rule of conscious parenting and being a great parent today?

I would say to have fun with your kids, right? The pandemic has shown us that we need to slow down, right? And I reconnect with your children for no reason at all, but just to reconnect. And I think we're so over-scheduled that we don't get a chance to really know our children, to really have fun with them in ways that they find enjoyable, that I think we should just make sure we're taking time, spending just quality time Just a couple hours a.

Day where it's like we're not scheduling anything, you're not going to a practice or class or homework. We're just being. You want to play, play. You want to hang out in the backyard, hang out in the backyard. You want to do nothing?

Yes.

Cool. To be open to just think and do that.

Exactly. Yeah.

Why do you think we overschedule so much as parents?

I think we think we know what's best for our kids, right? Again, we're trying to close the gaps between our own childhoods, right? We want to live Our lives through them. I see that a lot in, you know that. Of course. It's crazy.

Screaming at the refs.

Oh, it's so bad.

The 18-year-old ref is just like, I'm making 10 bucks an hour just showing up again, screaming up by all these parents.

Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, and I think we are living through our kids too much in ways that it's causing harm. Yeah, and I think, you know, part of it is we're trying to find out what they're good at, but then some of it is just really, the extra stress on our children is way more enormous than we ever thought.

If a parent today was only able to teach three things to their children, hypothetical scenario, what would you say are the three most important things they could teach their kids?

Kindness, compassion, and I would say what I call radical love. And that's like this all-encompassing love that really thinks about others, sees perspectives, and that you're willing to do stuff for other people without anything in return.

Is radical love include loving someone when they do wrong by you?

When they're unlovable, right?

Really?

Yes.

When they hurt you, when they do wrong by you?

It doesn't mean you have to, be friends with them, but it's showing them human love, right? It's showing them that in spite of your lack, I can love you from afar, but I'm not going to allow that to cloud the way that I can spread joy in the world. Yeah. And I think too, it's loving even when it's hard, right? Finding a way to love even when it's hard.

Wow.

Yeah.

What's been the thing for you as a parent that's been the hardest for you to forgive?

I think for me, it's not, and we talked about this earlier, it makes me want to cry, not seeing when my kids didn't feel like they belong, not recognizing that early.

In the family or in life?

In life, that they didn't find us, couldn't find a space, that there was something that I could have done differently and shown up differently to help them to navigate that. And I feel still hurt by that, you know, that I didn't get that right.

Really?

Yeah.

What do you mean you didn't get it right though?

I just feel like if this is my life's work, you're gonna make me cry, though. If this is my life's work, how did I not recognize that in my own home? Like, how did I not see, particularly my daughter, where she was struggling with all the opportunities, right, that we were giving her? Why didn't I see that it was too much? How did I miss that in my efforts to broaden her horizons? And I feel badly that I missed that for her.

What is it that she needed, and what is it that you needed in those moments?

She needed me to tell her This stuff is not who you are. This is extra, but it does not define you.

You mean the activities, the sports, the.

Music, the opportunities, the music, the soccer, the you have to do this, you have to take that class, you know, that is not why I love you and that does not define my love for you in any way. You could do nothing and my radical love would be my radical love, right? And I don't think I gave her that message enough for her to feel like she had to perform all these things at a high level. So if I could go back, I would tell myself to plug in more with her and to make sure she recognized that what she does and who she is is different or separated. Yeah.

What do you see yourself now though about it? Since you can't go back.

Yes, I have forgiven myself for that, but it is always conscious in my mind of how I show up now. So it's taught me to check in with my kids more. It's taught me to say, okay, you're going to finish this season because we started this season after this season. If you decide when it's time to sign up next season and you're done with this, we're done with this, right? You know, we finish what we start, but we can renegotiate. So, I do more renegotiating with my children. Like you say, there's still structure. There's still things that I expect from my kids in terms of the way they show up in the home. But I am very much more mindful of letting my kids know that they're not defined by the things that, the opportunities that they get.

It's interesting, I interviewed Kobe Bryant and he said that his father said, I'm gonna love you no matter what. I don't care, 'cause he said one summer he didn't score a single point in this basketball tournament when he was like 12 or 13 or something. He didn't score one time in like a whole summer of playing basketball and in this season or whatever. And as he said that his dad told him, he was like, I'm gonna love you no matter what. Like whether you're good or not at this, I just love you. And that stuck with him. It stuck with him and it made him be like, oh, it doesn't matter if I fail. So let me just go out and.

Give it all I got. Because my dad's gonna love me no matter what.

It took the stress off some, at least probably. But I think that parents today. I'm generalizing this. I'm not a parent, but I, I'm generalizing this. That parents, I feel like parents today put so much pressure on their kids to be great when they're seven at something. It's like, yes.

This is a six-year-old game.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So what does that do to children when you put so much pressure on them to be amazing and focus on the mistakes as opposed to celebrating their way of being?

Yeah, I think That's why we have a young generation having so many mental health challenges, right? I think depression, I think it's definitely, ultimately sometimes they start doing negative behaviors and we don't know why, right? You have all the stuff. Why would you throw it all away? Why are you, you know?

Right, you're blowing an opportunity.

Right, yes, yeah.

Whose opportunity?

Right, yeah.

Yeah, it's your own. The one I didn't get as a parent.

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

I'm curious about, I see a lot of content online about narcissists. Like there's so many narcissists in the world and, and these narcissistic personality traits and things like that. How can parents raise kids to not be narcissists in today's society with social media and the selfie culture and swipe left on, you know, dating all the time? Like how can and just getting attention in different ways than we used to get, I guess, attention or acknowledged growing up. How can parents raise kids to not become narcissists?

I think one saying no to your kids is really important.

Not give them everything.

Not give them everything, right? You have to have those boundaries. You have to have structure where no is used in a way that you can explain your no, but that you stick with your no. I think the other thing is to take your kids out of your bubble, right? And let them experience the world. Kids need to see that other kids don't have a lot of things, right? They need to see that the importance of being compassionate and kind, and that the things that we have are not promised, they're not guaranteed, and they're not normal. That's what I tell my kids. The way you live is not, this is not normal.

Right. You're going to Harvard as Rare.

That's not normal. Yes, right? Yes, there are sacrifices that we're making, but some people don't even get these opportunities. And so I think it's really important that parents are showing kids that it's important to do for other people early, early. Like building that habit early. Yes, yes. And there are little things you can do. Like some of the things we did when my kids were younger, we would be in the drive-thru at Starbucks, right? We would pay for the person behind us or whatever drive-thru line. When we're at the grocery store, we would give an extra $20 or $30 until the cashier to put it on the next person's tab. Little things that we can do that they don't have to be. One of my friends, her family builds these, you know, the little libraries that people have in their jars where you could take a book.

Yeah, that's cool.

They did it for like a pantry so that you could put non-perishables, in there. And so my kids and I go and we put things in there, you know, because, and I explained to them, this is somebody's meal. This is just a can in our cupboard, but this is another family's meals today. And so I think allowing kids to know what it's like to serve others.

Yes.

Is really important.

Not be served upon all the time.

Yes. And, and this question for you, too. Yeah. What do you feel about this? I, I have a I have, I think, a strong feeling about this, but as somebody who plays sports, right? What do you feel about the culture of everybody wins, everybody gets a trophy, everybody gets an award?

I don't like it. I mean, I didn't get that growing up myself. We got like ribbons, I guess, for like different places, but I remember feeling sad when we lost, 'cause I didn't get what I wanted. We didn't win, we didn't get a trophy and things like that. And I think there's a whole other topic around like how to deal with losing because I wasn't a good loser. I was a bad loser emotionally because I tied my self-worth around winning. And if I didn't win, that means no one would love me. So that was a story I told myself. So I had to unlearn that in my late 20s, early 30s. But I think acknowledging people for the effort and the attitude is always powerful. You didn't win, so you don't get the medal. But I want to acknowledge you for the attitude you showed. You showed effort. You hustled for that there. Great job on that. If you want to win, this is what it's going to take. Yes. If you want to get that gold medal or that trophy, here's what we're going to need to do. You're going to need to learn these skills. You're going to have a better attitude.

Like, and teach them the process of winning in competition. Yes. I love that. Personally. Yeah, I ditto on all of that. Yeah, yeah. Because I think when we're always winners, Then kids always feel like serve me, I'm always winning, right? I'm always the best, right? And then that kind of feeds into that notion of it's all about me. And I agree 100% that we're all not winners at this game. Like we've lost, you did a great effort, this is what you did well, these are things you need to prove on. But that team was better, right, today.

There was only one winner in the game.

Yeah. So I think that message of we're all winners could be hurtful in some ways.

Yeah, I think it's teaching that in sports, there's someone who wins the game and someone who doesn't win the game, but you can always become a better person in the effort and the attitude and the experience and the lesson. So the great coaches I had would sit us down after the loss and say, How did we win here? What was the lesson? Where did we grow here? You know, what can we acknowledge and appreciate about people's efforts and the play that they made? Man, we didn't win today, but this was a great effort. This was a great play. You scored here. You improved upon last week. Let's continue to focus on the growth and acknowledge the effort and the growth and the attitude as opposed to we lost. And the ones that were like, you know, you guys gave your all today. They were just a better team.

Right.

You have nothing to be ashamed of. You did the best you could do. You left it all in the field. That's all you can ask for.

Right.

Attitude, energy and effort is really all you can ask for. That's right.

Right. And it doesn't always end up the way you want it to. Exactly. But in the scoreboard. Right.

Exactly. But in your heart, hopefully it shows.

Up in the way you did. The work ethic.

Yes.

That's what after every game, I asked my kids, what did you do well? What was good? What did you do well? Yeah. And then after they do that, I say, okay, what can you do better for next time? Because it helps me, it helps me see how they, again, this goes back to me wanting to know that this sport isn't who they are, that they know that. So it helps me see that they can separate the game from who they are. Right. Like if they say, I sucked.

Yes.

Like, okay, you don't suck. You did not play your best today. Let's talk about why and what you did. That kind of helps me to see that. And then it also lets me see that they're not being so overly bragging when they shouldn't be. Like, I was awesome. We won because of me, you know? So I want to squash that too, right? So I want to see how they can self-regulate.

On both sides.

On both sides.

That's good. That's powerful, man. Is there a-- How important is the language we use as parents when our kids are around us?

I think extremely.

What are things that we should never say as parents?

I think we should never tell our kids that they suck, right? I think the words that we say are powerful words. They're powerful, right? They are powerful in the way our kids think about who they are. My husband can be harsh with his words. He's very direct. And I have to say, okay, I know what you meant, but this is what it sounds like, right? Especially when it comes to sports.

Yes.

And so I have to go unpack it, right? This is what was said, but what I think you're trying to say to them is this, right? And our kids need to hear that from you and not, that you suck today or those aren't his exact words, but basically that's what they feel. And I so I always tell my kids it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

That's true. It's the energy around your words.

Yes, yeah.

If you could look angry and say, I love you, and people are gonna feel like, oh, you're gonna love me. It's like the energy, the context of your words.

Absolutely.

I'm curious about if There's kids listening or watching that they feel like their parents are racist. How do children have conscious conversations with their parents that maybe they set a racist remark, maybe they're not even aware of what they're saying, but it feels racist or they feel like my parents are racist. How do they approach their parents without being made wrong, shut down?

Yeah.

You know, in having a conversation around that racist comment or that whatever, the energy, the experience that felt racist, how can they approach their parents without feeling afraid for their life?

Yeah, and I think it, first of all, it goes back to whether you've created safe spaces for your kids at home, right?

Let's say they haven't created safe space.

If they haven't created a safe space, it makes it a little bit more difficult, right? I think a lot of times, I know when my child was going through a hard time, he and I would journal write, right? So he didn't feel like he wanted to talk to me about it, but he'd write stuff in his journal and we'd pass a journal back and forth in our drawers so that I would wake up in my top drawer and the journal would be in there and we'd write that down.

That's cool.

So maybe sometimes putting things in writing, if you don't have a feel like you have a voice, that at least you can get it out. I would also say talk to somebody that you feel safe to be able to unpack it with them first. Also, I think if sometimes we think our parent is saying something racist and our parents have no idea that they're saying something racist. I've had friends, some of my white friends will say to me, my daughter said, what I said was racist. Is this racist? And she would say to me, you know, she would ask me, and I think younger generations, they see things differently than the older generations do in terms of language.

And I think, are those things racist when they ask you?

They could be misinterpreted as such, right? And I would say, well, it's not racist. It's just not really nice. -Right. -SensitivE.

-Right. Yes.

-Are kids overly sensitive today? -I think they're using the words, they're overusing words, right? -Like what? -What words?

-Racist. Like my kids was, something will happen.

In my kid's- that's racist. You're racist. He's racist. She's racist. She's racist. And I'm like, hold on. -That was a horrible- Yes. We're not using those words in that way. That word is powerful and it should be saved when it really matters. Because if we make light of it, the weight of that word then loses its weight, right? And so you better mean, when you say that word, you better mean it. Even just like bully. Like he's bullying me. I'm like, he's not bullying you. He's annoying you, yes, but he's not bullying you. Yeah, he's not nice. Right, right.

When you use that word. But it's not like he's putting you down and posting stuff about you online and shoving you in a locker and, you know, doing something like that. There's micro bullying, you know, but it's like, Right. So how do people...

I think the culture is using these words more.

Yes. And so when the culture is using it more frequently for things that maybe aren't nice, but maybe isn't a fully racist or bullying mentality, how do we learn to communicate without people feeling like, I'm just living my life trying to you know, not walk on eggshells all day with my every word I say because you're misinterpreting it as well.

Yeah, that's the messy part, right?

It's like that's not what it was. It wasn't racist.

Yes.

But you're interpreting it or you're just saying this blanket language.

And I think we have to start talking more. Like we are not, we're making judgments about people. We are in our silos with people who look like us or act like us, and we're not talking enough. Like we're living in such a black-white world, and I don't mean that racially, but just wrong rights, black-white, and we forgot about all the gray in between. And I think we need to get back to more gray areas where we have dialogue about, this is what I really meant. If this was offensive to you, I didn't mean that way. And I need to be able to say to you, Look, Louis, you said that. I know this is what you meant, but this is how it made me feel. And you need to then say, that never occurred to me, but your lived experience is different from mine. So I accept that and I apologize. And then we move on, right? We get so caught up with not saying the right thing, being afraid to apologize, being afraid to say what we want to say in a very respectful, radical love kind of way, right? That we then say nothing. And that silence breeds all kinds of things that we don't really intend for it to to, to breed. And I think having those hard conversations, living in the mess, being able to go to somebody and say, hey, let me just say this to you. This was offensive to me. Let me tell you the history behind that and, and explain to you why I found it offensive. And then you or the other person not feeling like, well, I didn't mean it that way, you know, but really listening and recognizing that Because our lived experiences are different, we are going to see things differently, and that's okay too.

And I think it takes responsibility from both parties.

Absolutely.

The one that's feeling offended to not attack and be overly aggressive in your communication of like, you did this to me and you made me feel this way, then the person's gonna be defensive.

Right.

So it's learning how to approach people as well, even if it felt like that was not cool to say that.

Yeah.

You know, which is hard. So I think it's hard for both parties.

And I know in the work that I do with parents, I have some activists who say to me that I'm not doing it right, right? I'm not doing it well.

To you, you're not doing it well.

To me, to me. Because some people in the black community feel like it is your responsibility, Louis, as a white male, to do the work. You need to educate yourself. You need to figure out why we're angry or hurting or upset. It's not my job to teach you. But as a educator, as a Black mother, I think it is my responsibility to teach you, right? Because you don't know what you don't know.

And who are white people gonna talk to if Black people aren't good enough?

Exactly, yes. Right.

Where are you gonna learn it from?

And that's my stance, right? Come to me and ask me. I want you to ask me the hard conversations so that we can unpack it. so that you don't make the same mistake twice or that you can work around your fears in order to show up differently and teach your children to do the same. So, you know, these different schools of thought, one's not right or wrong, but I just ascribe to one versus the other. And again, it's about having this open, honest dialogue that's needed for us to be able to understand each other in ways that we can show up for each other. Yeah. Because Listen, if we want things to change, it takes all of us. There's no one group that's going to be able to do it by themselves. We have to do it together.

I love that you said one of your principles was taking them out of your own bubble for your kids not to be narcissists. And I think that's just a good rule. If you create kids as global citizens, you take them to different neighborhoods. in your city or you get them to travel to see other places and people that are of different perspectives, they're gonna be raised with just exposure to all sorts of people. You know, I was raised on sports teams and sports teams, you know, I'm not a lot of my teams being white was the minority, right? So it's like, not all of them, but sometimes it's like I'm being raised in my community from sports teams but I was also telling you beforehand, I was in prisons for four years because of my brother, so I visited prisons as a kid. And then we traveled and I saw different people. My dad did something I thought was brilliant. We lived in a small white neighborhood in a small town in Delaware, Ohio. But he wanted us to be exposed to the world. And when we were younger, he didn't have a lot of money to travel until I was older. but he brought the world to us. We had exchange students, seven exchange students from around the world live with us for six months at a time. Brazil, Japan, Germany, Philippines, France, all these places. So we had people from around the world when I was five until I was 13 live with us. So I had older brothers and sisters that from different languages, different cultures, different countries, cook their food, have their flags up, you know, and live their culture. in my small, my house, in my world.

That's beautiful.

Because we couldn't travel early on, but it was like, brought the world to us. So he, he made us Global citizens at an early age, at least be exposed to it.

Yeah.

You know, we had the opportunity to embrace it or not, but, and I think that was powerful for me, and it just made me see the world differently.

Definitely.

So finding ways to get you out, get your kids out of the bubble in general. whatever that looks like for you, I think is a powerful tool to have kids more compassionate towards others.

Absolutely.

So, I don't know where I was going with that, but I just think it's important to get kids out of their bubble and not just say, this is the way and this is like our culture is the way it is. It's like expose people so they're not stuck in that mindset.

Yeah, in real life, right? Because we kids are making up their minds about people, you know, through social media, through TV, through whatever. And I always say, do you want, is that what you want to teach your kids about the world?

Right.

Because they're learning whether you're silent about it or not. And so I think having kids exposed to differences on your terms, right, is better than what they're learning on, on Instagram or Facebook or whatever they're on Tick Tock. Because that could be a scary world. Absolutely.

And they're gonna be on it no matter what. That's right.

So you gotta expose them. You gotta counter it, right.

This book is exciting for people. I think everyone should be reading this book, getting this book, sharing it. Social Justice Parenting: How to Raise Compassionate, Anti-Racist, Justice-Minded Kids in an Unjust World by Dr. Tracy Vaxley. I think this is powerful. The tools you've given us here, the stories, the lesson, the lessons you've been sharing is inspiring and I want people to continue on this journey. You give a lot of different exercises in here for parents and with kids and stuff like that. So make sure you guys get the book. Is there anything else that we should be thinking about before we get to the last couple questions? Anything else? Parents need to be thinking about to be better parents, kids need to be thinking about to be better children with their Parents, anything at all?

No, I think the main thing is having that safe space where parents and kids can talk about hard things and be able to unpack things at home before they go out in the world. It's really important.

So at least once a month having like something.

Designated time and space. I know some families too who have like a safe word. So if a child says that word, it means the parent needs to be quiet. and listen. And everything that that kid is saying, they're in safe zone and they're able to say it. You know, if something's going on at school, they're feeling a certain way. So, you know, have a safe space, safe word, safe time of the month, whatever it is. But listen.

I think it's also important for parents to take some pressure off their own backs because even you said yourself, this is your life's work and you still haven't been like perfect as a parent or as a mother with some of your kids at certain moments or you miss certain things and not putting all the pressure on yourself as a parent to feel like you got to get it right all the time as well.

That's exactly right.

You can't expect your kids to get it right all the time.

Yep.

And you can't expect yourself to get it right all the time. It doesn't mean that you let go of responsibility of showing up and acknowledging that you didn't show up the right way or you could have done better, but you don't want to live with so much pressure and stress as well because then that's not a good model.

For your kids either. Yeah, absolutely.

So it's remembering the human part. Exactly. That it's going to be messy.

Even if this is your life's mission, you're still going to mess it up at some point. That's exactly right.

Right? That is perfectly said. No one's perfect. That's right. That's right. You know, I have a, I'm excited to be a parent one day, but I'm also like, even though I'm in this work, I know I'm going to say something that I shouldn't have said or I'm going to, Whatever, look at my kid in a weird way or something that's gonna be like in their brain forever. You know, you're gonna say something they're like, man, they held on to that in their brain. It's like, Dad, you said this when I was eight.

And I'm like, what?

I don't remember this. Exactly. I'm sorry, I'm not perfect. So it's learning how to, you know, forgive yourself, I'm assuming, in the process of being a messy parent. That's right. And being as conscious as you can, right? People can follow you on social media. You put good stuff over on Instagram. You've got your website, socialjusticeparenting.com, Tracy Baxley on Twitter as well. And this is a question I asked everyone called the, at the end of our interview is called the Three Truths. So I'd like you to imagine a hypothetical scenario that it's your last day on Earth, many years away from now. So you get to live as long as you want. you get to accomplish all of your dreams, you're happy, you're healthy, but for whatever reason, it's your last day many years away and all of the work, your book, this interview, your content has to go somewhere else. So no one has access to your content anymore. All your information is gone, hypothetical scenario. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true, three lessons you would share with the world from just personal life experience or work or or whatever it may be for you, but three lessons you would share with the world. And this is all we have to remember you by. What would those three truths be for you?

I would say that kindness and compassion can change the world, right? Changes us internally, right? With our brain synapses, all of that, right? The more you Give the better, the more you, the better you feel, the happier, you know, serotonin, dopamine and all that good stuff. So I think leaning into the idea of kindness and compassion and how it can change the world and change you, I would say living in radical love is the tool that we need to live in a more humane world. And the third one, I would say is taking time, taking time to be present with what we say and what we do with people we love.

Yeah, those are good. Yeah, those are powerful. Well, Dr. Tracy, I want to acknowledge you for doing the work, because this is information and wisdom that a lot of us need to know, whether we're parents or not parents yet. We're going to need to know this information if we want to raise children in a healthy way. So I acknowledge you for doing the work for 30 years in all the different sectors, from early childhood to education to parenting now, and really appreciating and acknowledging you for creating it in a way that we can consume it, creating in a way we can understand it through this book. by showing up, by being a leader in your community, and by trying to be of service in a messy world right now. So I really acknowledge you for your gift and for being not a perfect parent.

That's right.

You don't need to be perfect.

I appreciate that.

You don't need to be perfect.

That's right.

You know, but you've got attitude, great attitude, great energy, great effort, and you keep showing up. And I think that's what parents need to know that they gotta do as well. We can't expect our kids to be perfect in sports and music. and we can't expect ourselves to be perfect, but you're being a great role model in this process. And I can only imagine the challenges you face with a mixed family of what that's like, navigating those other complexities with society right now. So I really acknowledge you for being a great mom.

Thank you.

Most of all, your kids love you. I know that. This is the final question. What is your definition of greatness?

I think, I'm at the, I'm going to repeat myself, but I think it's about being of service to others, right? Allowing who you are and what you have to serve other people. I think it's really, that's the greatness I want my children to have, right? To know that, who they are and what they do can always serve somebody else. So I think when you see yourself as a servant, servant leader, I think that's, to me, defines you as something great.

I love it. Tracy, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you.

Appreciate you.

Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also, make sure to share this with a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple.

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