How To Unlock Your Creativity & Access Your Visionary Mind

Welcome to this special masterclass. We've brought some of the top experts in the world to help you unlock the power of your life through this specific theme today. It's gonna be powerful, so let's go ahead and dive in. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza from your local pizza place or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes, subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. Spring is here and Spring Fest is happening now at Lowe's. Refresh your yard with Stay Green Premium 2 cubic foot mulch. 5 bags for just $10. Heading indoors, save up to 40% off select major appliances to help supercharge your chores. The best lineup is here at Lowe's. Valid through April 22nd while supplies last. Selection varies by location. See lowes.com for details. Mulch offer excludes Alaska and Hawaii. Hiring isn't just filling seats. With Indeed Sponsored Jobs, they'll help you match with candidates who can actually move your business forward. Target candidates by skills, certifications, or location. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results now with Indeed sponsored jobs. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help you get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, do it the right way with Indeed. What do you see is the thing that holds people back the most from being their most creative and best self?

I think it's being concerned what other people think, and a feeling of the people who make great things are somehow special, and that they're not special. And that's just not true. We're all— everyone has the capability to make great things, and none of us are special.

It seems like a lot of people, they're focused on what other people think, like you said, and it almost, it blocks them into this kind of rut feeling, I guess, that they feel like they're stuck in a rut. I don't know if you've heard this before with a lot of your artists, but with, with me as a writer and an author, I've heard so many people come to me and say, I want to write a book. And I ask them, how long have you been, had this idea that you wanted to write this book about this thing? And some people will say 5, 7, 10 years. But they've been worried about what people think, or they feel creatively stuck in a rut. Do you ever feel stuck in a rut? And if so, how do you personally get out of that?

I think taking action is a really great thing, and not, not setting up barriers of entry. Like, um, I can imagine a musician saying, I can't play this song because I don't have the right guitar, or I don't have the right equipment to do it. And there are no barriers to entry. There's always a way. I come from a punk rock background, so in punk rock it was a do-it-yourself mentality. And, um, you know, I started my first record company not knowing, not knowing that was something you can do. It just really happened automatically. I wanted to start making records. I wanted people to hear them. I never knew that you could get signed to a label. I just thought, well, if you want to make a record, you make a record. So I made records and, you know, print up 500 copies of a 7-inch single, for example. So I think there's always a way. You don't have to wait for permission from someone else. Um, I think that's a big part— people are waiting for permission to actually make their art, to make their art. Someone has to say, you know, I'll hire you to do this, or I'll publish your book if you write a book, or set the stage to, to allow you to do it. But I don't think that's the way great things are made.

When you did those, when you printed those first 500 singles, what was your dream or your vision? Was it, okay, now I'm gonna— how do I sell these? How am I going to give them away for free? What was the process for you?

Combination of giving them away for free and selling enough to be able to make another one. That was always— any of the things I've made, it's always been about sustainability. As long as I can make another one, it's a success.

But at this point, you know, you're sustainable probably for life, I'm assuming, with the success you've had. So you don't have to make something to try to make your money back, you know, or get your time back or whatever. So what is the vision now?

It's still—

I still think in those terms. I want— I feel like I want to make it where it's sustainable by itself. There's something that feels good about that, that you make something that can live on, not because of an endowment.

Yeah, that's interesting. I know you're—

I don't know why. I don't know why that is, but that's just my— and maybe it's just the way I was brought up. May just be.

What does an artist need to be thinking and feeling at the same time to create great art?

I would say thinking is the least part of it. It's much more about feeling and, um, being true to themselves, whatever that is. Feeling, feeling their truth.

And how do you know when an artist is being truthful in front of you?

It's a— it's just a feeling.

I feel it.

Yeah.

I think something you said was, I have no skill set. It's all intuitive. It's not what's in my head. It comes through me.

Yes.

So you're not analyzing or thinking about it. You're saying, huh, something doesn't feel right.

It starts with a feeling. Always. It starts with a feeling. The analysis comes in later to try to understand either the feeling, if there's a reason, like if I'm just feeling something, I can experience it and be fine. If we have to act on the feeling, then it's like, okay, This feels like this. Can I— is there a way to figure out why? Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. And if you can figure out why, or if you think you know why, then you can say, hmm, could it be this, this, or this? Let's try those things, see what happens.

Do you have a process when you're starting the first session with an artist after you've been introduced and you say, okay, let's do this, we're going to work together? Do you have a process where you set a personal intention that you don't tell them but then also you tell them what the intention is for your time working together?

I'll say when we're starting a new project, I always have anxiety.

Really? Always.

Always. Because I don't know what's going to happen. You know, there's a real question mark when we walk in and start. And I know that it could go a lot of different ways. And I don't have— I'm not interested in having a playbook in advance. I'm interested in seeing where it's gonna go, and it's scary because it could not go good. And sometimes there's an ex— you know, some artists have an expectation that I'm gonna do something. I can't do anything, you know, right? It's like it's either gonna happen or it's not gonna happen. So, but then usually within— sometimes it's the first day, sometimes it's the third day, sometimes it's the second week where something happens like Whoa, what was that? How did that happen? And then that might give us a clue. It's like, oh, this is, this is what it wants to be. And that may change also. It may— that may be the first inclination. It could start that way, and then it makes a left turn, turns into something completely different. The, the work itself tells us where it wants to go. So because we have— the reason it's so scary is because we have so little control over it. That's what's—

there's no control. None. And if an artist has a big expectation, I need to put out a record that's going to do well, I need to make money, I need to make the label happy, whatever it is, my fans need to love this, then that could feel like a lot of pressure. But do you allow that pressure to affect you?

No, because I know it's not in the interest of the work. It's like we're all on the same page, even the people we're ignoring, the record companies, the managers, the agents, the people who are yelling, I need this, I need this now. Ultimately, for everyone involved, if the artist makes the best possible work that they can, everybody wins. It's just that no one involved in the process understands what it takes for that thing to happen. I had a conversation with a basketball player, a member of the Golden State Warriors, who told me, um, there's all this pressure now to do a lot of stuff on social media. And he said, and it's getting in the way of our playing.

Interesting.

And I said, well, if you tell the people who are asking you to do the social media stuff, don't you want us to win? So if you want us to win, let us focus on winning. And he said, they don't seem to care. They want us to do the social media stuff. They want us to distract ourselves from the work of the game, from the flow, from the practice, putting in the reps.

Yeah.

And then I say, well, if then it's up to you, what's more important, to please them or to win?

Man, this is fascinating. Was there, um, was there— what was the experience for you where the artist or the band came in and it was the fastest best-flowing process you've ever experienced, where just like everything was lining up— authenticity, truth, you know, raw realness was happening every, every day. And it was also— it was a great success for them personally to have the art be real and honest, but it also landed commercially and took off.

The first thing that comes to mind would be Johnny Cash, because he had gone you know, 25 years of not having success, and he had been dropped from two labels. And when I signed him, he didn't— he didn't even know why I was interested. That really was the conversation. It's like, what— why— what do you think— why do you think working with you is going to be any different than working with anyone else? Like, he had given up, um, and to— for him to get into it. We recorded in my living room, and he would just play me songs on an acoustic guitar. And there was an honesty in what was happening there. We didn't know that we were making a record at that time. We were just looking for songs. So he was playing me songs. It was almost like a way for us to, to musically meet each other. He would play me the songs he loved, either from childhood or songs that he thinks he'd like to sing. Um, or a song he wrote. And it was just a very honest experience. And then we went into the studio, we picked some of those songs— we went through hundreds of songs and then picked a handful to try to record. And we went— when we went into the studio with a band, it didn't sound— it didn't have what the living room recordings had. There was some intimate honesty, and we'd never heard Johnny Cash that way before. Um, so that led to the first album, which was a solo acoustic album. Again, we didn't set out to make a solo acoustic album, but it revealed itself as that's the most interesting thing to do. And that ended up being very successful, and very successful with young people, which he had not experienced since the 1950s. Um, so that was a— and after that, after the success of that album, we made 5 more albums together. And he had confidence, right, based on the experience of the first one, which he expected nobody to care about, really, uh, took, took hold with people. And then on, I think it was on our 4th or 5th album, um, he did a cover of Hurt, the Nine Inch Nails song, and that ended up being probably the biggest, you know, maybe the biggest hit of his life, certainly of his later life. Wow. And, um, and that was a real revelation.

How important is confidence for an artist in your mind to have? Because I've, I've been around some of the greatest athletes that are freaks of nature athletically, that are gifted beyond anything physically, who can do anything in practice, but then they lack the confidence in the game and they looked like an average player. Yeah. Does that— is that the same thing with, with artists, singers, guitar players, you know, musicians, where there's— they could be so gifted, but if there's a time when the pressure is on to record, they don't have the confidence? Does that hold people back? Have you seen that?

I'll say it's, it's not as simple as that because there's a There's a vulnerability required for the artist that if you're confident to the point that it disguises your vulnerability, that doesn't work. So it's a— it's like a dance between being wildly open and vulnerable and commitment to do whatever it takes to get your work through. That combination, which is a difficult combination.

It's almost like what I'm hearing you say, this is really interesting point. It's almost like you just have to have courage to be vulnerable, which is not really confidence. It's more of like you just got to, if you're unwilling to be courageous with your vulnerability, you just won't be able to share your art.

That's true. There's, I'll say though, to get up in front of people and sing, takes a certain amount of confidence.

Yes.

It's just part of the— it's a hard thing to do. I couldn't imagine doing it.

That's true. A friend of mine, just Rachel Platten, she just— she wrote a song called Fight Song that was, you know, really popular over the last 6 or 7 years. But she had a, you know, she started a family over the last 5 years. So she's got 2 young kids. And I'd seen her play in the past where she was uber confident, but she hadn't played in a while. And so she came out and she's like, guys, I'm actually really nervous. And this is my first time playing, you know, kind of with a band with these new songs in a while. And I'm revealing myself of these new songs. You know, you could sense this, you know, vulnerability, which was actually beautiful. Yes. It was like we're rooting for her. You know, she, she messed up a few times, but she kept going and she was like, hey, I'm going to restart this and thank you guys, you know. But it was like, wow. And it made moments of like awe and magic happen. Yes. It was so cool.

Yes. And it's not about perfection. That's the thing. It's like Humanity breathes in the mistakes, you know, in the— it's what, it's what's not ordinary. If it was, if it was machine-like perfect, it's not so interesting. It's cookie cutter, right? It's all the same. So it's the, it's the edges, it's the frayed edges that make it interesting.

Talk about transcendence, you talk about manifestation. Um, in the universe. I know you're a big meditator. How long have you been meditating for?

I learned when I was 14, and, um, it's been a big part of my life the whole time. I can't say I've done it continually, but I go through phases of 5 years on, 2 years off, or something might replace it that's another kind of a meditation. Like, I may go from TM sitting meditation to learning Tai Chi. And Tai Chi will fill the slot of my TM time.

Transcendental Meditation, yeah. If you could go back to your 40-year-old self, what would the number one piece of advice be for you at 40? If you can think about where you were then, who you were working with, the projects you were working on, the people in your life, knowing what you went through the last 20 years, What would you tell yourself then?

I would always say just have as much fun as possible because we, um, I, I'm a workaholic by nature and I love making things and I love making good things and a great deal of time and effort goes into that. And, um, and I'm hard on myself in that way, in that I, I have high expectations, um And I think we can have fun too.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. What brings you the most joy?

I think probably quality time in nature with my family. That's probably the best. Being in a beautiful place, being close to my family, breathing fresh air, walking on the beach, um, laughing together, reading together. Watching movies together, you know, watching wrestling. You know, I like pro wrestling more.

Yeah, of course.

Pro wrestling with my son's fun.

That's great. Are you more of a wrestling fan or UFC now?

Always been pro wrestling.

Yeah.

UFC feels like they might hurt each other.

They do hurt each other.

That's why I like wrestling. It's like, it's more, uh, everybody's on the same side, right, for it to be the best show.

They wanted to be a win-win.

Yeah, it's a win-win.

Yeah, you talked about that and, you know, this documentary series about, you know, I love the video of you being like the ultimate promoter with the Beastie Boys in a commercial, like just being this hype man promoter. Like, you know, um, how much has, I guess, pro wrestling influenced you as an artist?

A lot, a lot, because it's, uh, it's a world where you never really know what's true. It's a world of mystery. And great skill is involved in what they're doing. And there's a story, and it's a story sometimes of people who seem to hate each other. Do they hate each other? They might be best friends, you know. It's like we don't know. But sometimes they really do hate each other, and then the matches are different when they really hate each other. But you never know when it is. So there's this— there's a sense of, uh, and I think it's more honest than any other form of any other sport or any other form of entertainment. See, it's funny, I say it's the only legitimate sport is pro wrestling, because it's the most like the world. In the world, we don't really know what's true. Everybody has a facade. People put on a, you know, airs or a performance, a mask.

Yeah.

Or the politician talks and we don't really know who they are. They say these things that are often written for them. We don't know. So there's this like performative aspect of the world that wrestling— that's what the world's really like. We say that the wrestling is fake. It's like the world is fake and wrestling is real.

That's what it is. I wanted to go back into what you talked about with You know, you mentioned transcendence, and I think you mentioned, you know, the universe having your back when you asked for an answer, uh, with this, you know, particular song with System of a Down. What is your thoughts on manifesting and manifesting something you want and alchemizing it into the world? Do you believe in manifesting? Do you believe in, uh, you know, artists should be thinking in that way? Or what's your thoughts on it?

I believe in it a million percent. It's something that I've experienced before I knew what it was. So when I say it's like, uh, I feel like it has to do with the purity of the intention behind what you're doing. If your intention is pure and you're doing it for the right reasons, it seems like things tend to work out. And that ends up being, um, a manifestation mindset. But it didn't start for me that way. It just was like, I really believe in what I'm doing. I really care about it. I want to be the best it could be for me, and I'm excited to share it. And the results have shown me that you could manifest things. It happens.

It's it.

But I'll say, when I do it, it's never based on the outcome.

Oh, what do you mean?

I'm never asking for a result.

What are you asking for?

I'm asking for to, to rise to the occasion, to make the best thing that I can, for the thing that I make to be great.

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Great is a vague word. I don't know what great means. I came to realize recently what great means, but I didn't know— most of my life I was aiming for great, but I didn't know what that was. And I've come to realize that great means it's, it's a devotional, it's a devotional kind of greatness. It's a gift to the universe. It's a gift to God. Wow. If you're making, if you're making a gift to God There's no greater, uh, you can't put more into it than that, you know. You can't— what about the single? What about, what about what someone's gonna say? Who has anything to say if we're making a gift for God? That there's— you're putting all of your purest intention into this thing for the universe. Wow. That's where it's at. I didn't know that. I came to realize that recently. I, again, my word was greatness. Greatness. That was the word of what I was shooting for. But I've come to realize what it is. Wow.

You have a whole, you know, kind of section about greatness and success in The Creative Act: A Way of Being, which is— which I loved your explanation there. That is fascinating. So greatness for you, what I'm hearing you say, is, is a, is a pure gift of yours to God.

Yes, and it's a, it's a gift of yourself to God. It's like, this is the best I can do, this is my offering, this is what I have to offer.

If you think of a formula for manifesting as an artist, what would that formula be?

I don't think there's a formula.

Is there an art to manifesting?

I don't know. I don't— I think, um, it sounds like a shortcut, and I don't think there are shortcuts. I think it's always a, a version of doing the work, of finding your way into what it is that the universe wants you to do, and then really dedicating yourself.

How do you know what the universe wants you to do and when to do it? The right timing? Because you could be like, I have this idea for this thing, maybe it's the right time now, maybe it's 5, 10 years away from now. How do, how do we really tap into that knowing?

I think it's, it's, it's situational. And I think the— again, if you're tapped into the universe, it tells you, it, it, it directs you. An example, I may have 3 different ideas that I'm I'm excited about, and I kind of get them all going, and then one of them just seems to take off on its own, and one of them, no matter how hard I work on it, it never seems to come together. Can't find the right collaborators, impossible, some obstacles in the way. When that happens, I feel like it's the universe saying now's not the time.

Interesting, because, you know, I, I love this. And I also hear the other side of the, I guess, the coin where, you know, I don't know if you know Ryan Holiday, which I do. The obstacle is the way is his kind of stoic philosophy of like when the obstacle is there and presents itself and you also feel like this is something you want to do, like you've got to kind of go through that pain and, you know, overcome it.

That is part of it. I'm not saying to turn away from the obstacle. But I'm saying when the obstacles become insurmountable consistently and there's another path, right, that's going smoothly and you feel the same about both of them, you know, I go for the effortless way.

Yeah, well, pay attention.

See when, when is the universe giving you a push? When is the, when is the wind hitting your sails the right way? There's something to it. I, I'm, I'm, I would never suggest not fighting through the work. It's, it's, it's grueling no matter what. It's grueling no matter what. That said, sometimes it feels like now's not the time. Yeah, it's like all— everything you throw at it gets deflected, right?

But this other thing is guiding you, taking its own—

taking on its own life. Earlier you asked about, um what I perceive to be a shortcut. And a shortcut is how little can I get away with doing. And I think that the real question is how much more can I give to the thing I'm making, right? What else can I give to it? And, and thinking in terms of how much more can we do not how much less can we do. It's not about shortcuts. It's not about getting it done, you know. It's not about a 4-hour work week. I love to, you know, I love to, but that's not— it's like whatever it takes for it to be all it could be. Um, commitment and total commitment and dedicating your life to making the best things you can, whatever it is.

Yeah, that's beautiful, man. Um, and so do you— so you think that as artists, we should be thinking about manifesting, but not in the terms of doing less, but putting the maximum into making it great?

Doing anything that's within our power. If it— it doesn't have to make sense. Nothing has to make sense. You know, could be when I wear these purple socks, I can write a better song. Great. Doesn't matter. Don't question it. Just do whatever works. Do it.

How do you navigate putting art out there and being like, oh, I hope people like this and they don't give me negative feedback versus people are going to like it or hate it or whatever they're going to respond to it. How do you navigate you feeling good about it no matter what happens to it in the world?

I will say before releasing, it's not so much a fear, but there's this sort of, there's this, maybe I don't experience actually where the fear is coming from, but there's a terrible unease. And I think usually before releasing an album, there's this awful purge of like cortisol that happens and like, You know, I've talked to a lot of artists about this where like you're in tears before it happens and you're exhausted and the catharsis that you'd hoped you would get from it never arrives, you know. And so there is that. I think there has to be, maybe there's just, there is some resource that you pull from that brings you to a place where you are in absolute commitment to the fact that the work needs to exist, that it doesn't matter what anybody has to say. Something, the song wants to be written. The song has in some ways, and I sometimes think of it like this when an idea comes through, the song is asking to be written. It feels ready to be worked on. And to deny it that is kind of, it's going against your nature, which you know you kind of have to do what you have decided you're here to do. So there's something that is willing to be made. It's willing itself to be made through you. And it's like you, either fucking do it or don't.

Right.

But don't, sorry, excuse me, don't get annoyed when somebody else has the idea because there's a lot of parallel thinking in the world as well too.

And someone else is going to put something similar out.

Exactly. Yeah. And that actually happens. I mean, artists talk about this. I've certainly experienced it. You have an idea for a song and 6 months later you hear it on the radio and somebody else has played with the themes that you were thinking of. And it's, we're all living in the same similar societies or, you know, so it's a lot of parallel thinking comes in because we're all very similar stimuluses, whatever it is. But you have to, there has to, I don't know, there is a resource that you pull from that is just, you know, this needs to be made.

Like what was it like, you know, when you came out with your first song that was a mega hit? What was the feeling before that launched versus, you know, the most recent Unreal on Earth? You know, is the feeling still the same? You know, 12 years later, is there a different feeling at this season of life as an artist? Before you launched the recent album?

And the feeling on the first song, I was so like, I was such an unknown that I just was watching its uptake slowly but surely. There was these moments where, okay, it was reaching another audience. So it's like, oh my God, it's like, that's a video that's been seen by 10,000 people. Oh my God, that was a huge deal for me at the time. And I think it was like, it got, it was like on the first page of Reddit or something, which at the time was like, you know, huge. It was huge, you know. And then it was, then it was starting to be played. I think some of the earliest, I think the first, one of the first radio stations that played it in the States was like Alabama Mountain Radio. And like it was being Shazammed and we were watching like somebody was telling me, oh yeah, it's just been Shazammed in like parts of the world, parts of the States that I'd never been to the States. I'd never thought that it would, I would be where the music would be heard. At this point, people in Ireland didn't know that I was an Irish artist. You know?

Really?

Yeah, honestly. I think the song had started to be played on Irish radio, but they assumed that I was like an American import, you know, that I wasn't— they didn't know that I was from Ireland because I hadn't been releasing music all that long. And then there was this kind of dark sort of gospel rock sound, you know, in that song, this kind of swampy sort of vibe. And yeah, so it's different. I think that sometimes you miss being the underdog a little bit. There's a lot to be said for having—

Something to that feeling, right?

Yeah, having nothing to lose.

The naive, like, oh, this is really exciting.

Yeah, exactly. And feeling like every inch you gain is a huge deal and is a big win and you've nothing to lose. You can prove everything, but also if nothing happens, it's like, it's okay, you know, go away, come back when you're ready, you know what I mean? But it's, so it's trying to maintain that. Maybe there's something to be, you can still maintain that sort of mindset a little bit of like, I think when you, and this is also maybe something that you can, it's good to practice or to to investigate or think about is when the stakes seem higher or you've like on your second or third release, you feel like if it doesn't do something for you that it's somehow, you know, it could be a success by the metrics of what you would think beforehand or anyone else's, but you create this idea of like, I don't know, you just, you want more from it or, you know, so that's—

How do you navigate that? Like when you launch you know, an album and it doesn't do the numbers in your mind, like, well, I hope it does this many downloads or streams in the first month or year.

Yeah.

If it doesn't do that, or if it does do that, how do you navigate that expectation?

I think it's always just about, I try to just bring myself right back to, because you do and you look, you work with, you partner up with business, like labels and stuff like that.

And they wanted to win.

You know, yeah. And they're competitive by nature and, And it's great that you have a team that thinks like that, that wants to bring your work to a large audience. And there's a lot of different ways that different artists will think about this, independent artists maybe, you know. And what I have settled on is that if I believe in the work, I want to give it every chance that it can reach as many ears as possible and let those ears decide. And I just try to bring it back to the work. Do I believe in it? If I believe in it and I love it enough that I feel it's worth releasing, it's worth being out in the world, I'm at peace with it whether somebody listens to it or doesn't. I'm at peace with it if nobody listens to it. There's some songs that I'm quite proud of such that if they weren't heard by 100 people, I would say that song is still of the quality and that I wanted it to be. The quality of the work doesn't change whether it's listened to, listened by a million people or a billion, billion times, or it's listened by a thousand, thousand people or 100 people or 10 people. The quality of the work doesn't change. So I just try to bring it down to am I happy with its quality?

That's beautiful. I think that's a good lesson for any artist or author or anyone. It's like, are you happy with the quality? Yes. If you have a career or business around it, sure, you want to figure out a way to make money and survive. But I think you have to be proud of the quality of work, no matter if it sells millions of copies or one copy. Totally.

Totally. Does it represent you?

That's beautiful.

Yeah.

Man, there's a lot I would love to talk more about with you. We'll have to have you back on another time. But I want people to check out your new album. Unreal on Earth. I want them to come to watch you live on tour, man, which I'm going to do one of these days.

Please do.

They can go to hosier.com for your tour dates and everything like that, is right?

Yes. Yeah. Tour dates. Unfortunately, not many shows left.

But they can get notified when you do do more.

Exactly. Exactly.

I'm curious, in the last decade, what has been the biggest transformation you've seen within yourself? Through this journey of success and experience and making all this art? And what is the biggest thing you still struggle with today?

Stuff I've learned about myself is, I mean, I've done a lot of personal, personal work. I used to think that realizing that creating, maybe this is one thing I can offer, that being creative and creating And my relationship with myself was also, you know, my relationship with the work is very often dependent on my relationship with myself.

What do you mean by that?

That it's a thing. It's like whether it's self-doubt or it's self-criticism and an internal monologue that is largely negative. And something I took for granted my whole life. It didn't catch up with me until a couple of years ago when I realized I honestly felt I was never going to write another song.

Really?

Yeah. Sometime during the pandemic, I hit this kind of wall where I couldn't move forward anymore and I felt I'd written my very last song. And I had to come round to Okay, no, this is just, it's the same voices, but they're just louder now because there's nothing to distract me. So I think that was, in the pandemic, that was part of it.

You weren't able to tour, you weren't able to go out and distract yourself. Not that tour is a distraction, but you weren't able to, you had to sit still now and hear everything coming in.

Yeah, and in some ways, tour is a magnificent distraction and it's a job in which you're constantly putting out fires. Every day is another little crisis, you know, and, you know, I still get, I won't say, would you call it stage fright? But like, I'm still having to regulate my body constantly. I'm terrified. You know what I mean? Every day is like, really?

Oh yeah.

10 minutes before stage.

Yeah.

I'm like, I can't do this.

Yeah.

Yeah. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. There's an element of like nerves and like, I am not able, I, you know, I'm not able to do this. It's so funny. I was joking with some of the band and this is maybe a musician thing. We had a few weeks break. I was a month into a couple of weeks after break and I was trying to think. Now this is maybe because a lot of playing is muscle memory. You don't think about when it's automatic. But I was trying to think to myself, it's like, how do I play that song on guitar? I can't visualize or I couldn't visualize a fretboard. I couldn't visualize finger movement. So, but yeah, no, there is always this creeping voice that's And it's, look, it's immaterial. You find your way around it. You find your way over it and you ground yourself and stuff. But yeah, but creatively, I think when you are exactly as you describe, there was no distractions like during the pandemic. But tour is, there's plenty, there's always something to do. Whether it's press, promo, meetings. I'm oftentimes releasing music at the same time. So that's looking at artwork, video edits, mixes, mastering. And I'm constantly, I'll be honest, like constantly a little bit overwhelmed, like just a little bit under overwhelmed, you know? And like, I'm just, the nose is like, you know, you're on the line. There's a nostril, you know?

I can barely breathe, but I'm—

Yeah. Yeah. And part of me, you know, it's also realizing, okay, is this by design? Am I trying to keep myself up here.

Interesting. And because, because you didn't want to face yourself, maybe.

Yeah, you just, yeah, you operate, operate well in that space, or you at least you function in that way.

But yeah, maybe it's not well, but you're like, you're operating.

Yeah, you're operating, or you're, you're, yeah, you're operating, you're getting everything that needs to be done done.

And so pandemic hits and you, that all stops and you have to face yourself.

I guess so.

Yeah. What was the, biggest fear that came to you when you weren't able to go on tour, you weren't seeing people, and you had to turn around and face the parts of you that maybe you weren't aware of yet?

I can't recall exactly if it was a feeling of fear. There was a feeling of maybe sorrow that came with it and sort of, it's just a lowness, you know what I mean? Just sort of a very, like a, you know, and I think I think anybody who's maybe prone to sort of depressive episodes or is, you know, will be familiar with it, but it's this kind of, I just slowed down in all forms and I just felt no root. I saw no ability to write, nor it was, and any attempt to make it, seemed impossible. I also fully believe, and this is a funny thing about when you're in that mindset, I fully believe that I could not, I did not know how to write a song despite all evidence against it. I was like, oh no, I actually don't know how to do this. And so how many songs had you written at this point? Oh, like, you know, probably, you know, over 100 or, you know, obviously ones that don't get released, right? Like, Yeah, but like, it's something I do all the time. But there's something enters into the mind and then I realize it's like, oh no, this has nothing to do with this. This is something else. So again, it's about relationship itself, you know? And so that was something I learned.

What was your relationship with yourself like?

I think I didn't have much of one, you know? So, and it was more just realizing, okay, I'm going to have to cultivate a very positive relationship with myself, you know, and actually kind of put, you know, begin to address the root of some of this stuff and put an arm around myself. And wow, actually. So that was the beginning of one of the more significant changes in my life, I would say, is, is tending to actually, you know, by the time I was 30, actually like, like tending to, let's say, mental health and a relationship with self and which I had just avoided doing, you know, because I could sort of, I felt like maybe I could work my way around it or I could, you know, but once you can't run anymore, you know, it's, I'd sometimes describe it as the hamster wheel had to stop spinning, you know what I mean? And so then you're forced to sit in your little cage, you know what I mean? So, and kind of look around and take it in and go, okay, something's not right about this.

What is the thing that you realized about your identity with yourself or your relationship to yourself when you no longer were chasing or on tour or distracted by facing— Tax and bonus season is one of those sneaky little moments. You check your account, you see a refund or a bonus, and for about 10 seconds you feel rich, like, ooh, maybe I'll go buy some expensive gift for myself. Then reality kicks in. But here is the thing. That moment right there is actually kind of powerful for us. For most of us, extra money hits the account and suddenly it already has plans because something needs to be fixed, something needs paid for, or something you've wanted for forever is calling your name. There's no shame in this. Life is full. Things break, plans pop up. But what if just for a minute you paused, like just for a second, not because you have to, but because you want to ask a better question. Not what can I buy right now, but what would actually feel good about this later? And instead of the moment running you, you make an intentional move, not a big dramatic one, just a simple decision that leaves you feeling a little more steady and a little more in control, specifically with your money. And if you get a tax refund or a bonus, try asking a different question, not what can I buy today? But how can I give my bonus a bonus? Or how can I turn my tax refund into more funds? It's a small shift, but it changes the energy and suddenly it isn't just extra cash. It's an opportunity. One simple, intentional decision can help you feel a little bit more in control, a little more steady. And honestly, that feels better than an impulse purchase you forget about in 2 weeks. And that's why I like how US Bank approaches tax and bonus season. They know these moments matter. US Bank Smart Lease Savings is designed for people who want flexibility while earning competitive promotional rates. And if you are in a place where you do not need immediate access to that money, US Bank CD Specials let you lock in a guaranteed rate for a set period of time. It's so simple. It's straightforward and it's about saving your way. Growing your money without overcomplicating it. U.S. Bank can be a trusted partner when you decide to be a little more intentional with a financial boost. Visit usbank.com/savings to get started. Savings rates vary based on the presence of an additional eligible product and combined qualifying balances. CD rates vary by term and location. Member FDIC. I am big on simple daily habits that support how you show up, and this is about building a routine that helps you eat, sleep, thrive, repeat. Nature's Bounty is all about helping you thrive from your head to your heels. You can support your heart, bone, nerve, and muscle health with magnesium glycinate. And if you want a little extra heart support, there is Vital Heart Rapid Release softgels made with magnesium and CoQ10. And for digestive and immune health, Probiotic 10 delivers 20 billion live probiotic cultures in a 1-pill-per-day formula, which makes it easy to stay consistent. And if you care about building habits that support your goals, this is one way to stay intentional with your health. Nature's Bounty. It's in your nature. Learn more at naturesbounty.com. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. Yourself?

I think it was, I'd say you could say it was defined by a, I had a very large, largely a combative relationship with myself. So I was absolutely at war with myself constantly. Yeah.

How did that look like on a daily basis? What would that mean?

It's like I couldn't have a thought without an opposing thought, you know? So it's like my brain was kind of split in two that I'd have a thought and then a thought to combat with that.

So, so no, that's not real. That's not true. This is the truth. This is real. And then, yeah, going back and forth.

Yeah. Or it's, and, but when in, at times, and like, I guess like your state, you know, you're not always, sometimes you're at a 7, some days are 3, some days are 9, some days are, you know, and creatively it's like, that could really slow me down because it's like, I think this is a nice idea. I think this is beautiful. No, it's not. So I couldn't hold one thought at the same time, oftentimes. So it was challenging. I won't go into the nitty and the gritty of my whole experience, but that's probably for another, you know. But no, it definitely put roadblocks up. So that was a big change when I started to address that.

How did you navigate the process? And I'm assuming there wasn't— I mean, I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know if in Ireland growing up there was a lot of talk around mental health and having a good relationship with yourself and a healthy identity. And, you know, I don't know if there was or not, but how did you learn to develop that then during that time without having any of those skills or tools for the first 30 years of your life?

There wasn't. There wasn't really, you know, and And especially it's not something even, I mean, more so my parents' generation would have had any sort of, not really, you know, not in a kind of a, this is something we can talk about. It's a day-to-day thing, you know.

Kind of like suck it up and let's not talk about it and keep moving forward and just everything's good.

Very 1970s, you know, very '60s and '70s. But I'm very grateful to sort of to have access to be more present in the day-to-day with my actual lived experiences as opposed to just, yeah, just having this kind of—

Wow, man.

Yeah.

So you're allowed, I mean, I'm really grateful you're talking about this because I wrote a whole book called The Mask of Masculinity.

Okay.

7 years ago now. Yeah. Where, 'Cause growing up, I felt like I had to be, you know, this strong man. I could never cry. I can never show my emotions in school, sports. And it tormented me inside. You know, it tormented me emotionally, feeling like I had to wear a mask to fit in and belong, but it wasn't my truest authentic self. And when I hit about 30, That's when I started to unwind and start to navigate therapy myself and reflect and heal. And it's, it's, it was extremely challenging. It's probably the hardest thing I've ever done is to let go of those masks and open myself up to myself, turn around and look at all the parts of me that I was ashamed of or afraid of or scared of or insecure of and actually acknowledge them and look at them and start to heal the, the little boy inside of me that still had a lot of guards up and fears and insecurities and doubts and shame and angers and resentments and all these different things that I was not proud of and started to integrate my current self with my younger self and, and, and mend the wounds, the emotional or psychological wounds that were stored in the body and the nervous system.

Yeah.

Yeah, to create alignment.

Yeah.

With the present and the now. And it was the most challenging thing I've ever done in my life, but it set me free. And as I'm sure you're, you're in right now, healing is a journey. And I'm 10 years deep in the healing work and I've never felt more free. Also knowing that you can't just stop doing the work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like I still go to therapy every month. I still show up and allow myself to talk about it and process things in a healthy, conscious way, in a safe way. And I think it's really inspiring to hear you talking about this because I can only imagine the amount of pressures that artists feel to create art. And I think a lot of artists tend to create from pain or suffering, it seems like, rather than peace and joy. But it's probably challenging because you're sharing it with the world, but you also still need to deal with it yourself. And just probably a messy process.

Yeah.

The whole sharing from or writing from— also, let me just— I just want to address, it's like, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And it's beautiful. It's also It's very similar to what you describe. And I think I was 30 also. It took me 30 years of living in a way where I realized, I can't do this anymore. I can't live like this anymore. And I've waited too long to feel like I can cope. You know what I mean? And then—

Isn't it interesting that no amount of success or money or fame will give you that peace or freedom that you're looking for?

Yeah, 100%. Isn't that interesting?

Yeah.

But I think a lot of people, I don't think think that's what you were doing. I don't think you were chasing that. Um, you were being an artist and it took off.

Yeah.

But I think a lot of people in society, in the world, are looking to accelerate their career, to have more status, to make more money, to have, you know, flashier things or success to fulfill a part of them that is insecure or afraid or doubting something.

Yeah.

And the more I did that and the more others do that it doesn't solve the problem. Yeah. You still have to turn around and look at yourself at some point.

Totally.

And I think it's largely unconscious, this driving, you know what I mean? But that sort of thing of drive. And I do think about this a lot, whether would I be driven to be, you know, because surely the work, it's this question of surely the work is enough. Like, if I just loved songs, and I just wanted to write them. Do I need everybody to hear them? You know, what's the point?

Why go on tour? Why do this? Why do the— yeah, yeah.

You know, why did I need it? So there is, I sometimes wonder, you know, what part of me needed to be witnessed, you know, or what, you know, and I think a lot of people who are driven towards work in the public view I'm not saying everybody, I'm just saying generally there is, I think you might be correct in that there is a, all of us are driven in some way from maybe some unobserved place that in some way that all of us think, okay, if I get this thing or I do this thing, all my problems will be solved. All my, you know, we all imagine this picture in our heads, you know, of that arrival point that just never comes. Or you get there, you'll see the picture and it'll align with the picture in your mind. And then you put the feeling is not there.

It's still not enough. You still want more. Are you still comparing to what your peer might be doing? Oh, they're getting this opportunity, right?

Yeah, totally. And it's something you shared about that thing. It's kind of that self-parenting thing of like getting relationship with yourself as a child. A friend of mine once described it quite beautifully, I have to say, of like, getting to this point in that process of then looking out from some moment of their life and just reminding, pausing to remind themselves to invite their child to watch it with them.

Cool.

And to stand in space, either whether through the window of their home or at some event that they were at, and to imagine in their mind's eye that their child was there to say, hey, look, 'You know, look where we are. You did this.' You know, and I, I'm quite moved by that, just to, just to bring your child into that and go like— because there's some, there's some— sometimes there's a, there's this sort of switch that happens where we think, 'No, I took, I took myself away from these circumstances and I did all of this on my own.' But to turn around to your kid and say, 'Hey, you know, I want you to see this.' Wow. And how, how great fucking did, you know, and how you, you did this, you know, and we did this together, isn't this cool? And just to, to let your kids sort of smile at that.

That's beautiful.

And him, yeah, I think it's that one— I think that's a, that is a life-changing relationship thing, you know, I think with yourself if you can do that. And but again, yeah, I, I mean, I, I had no language for this until I was after a few years ago. Yeah, until a couple of years ago. So I'm still Why my reluctance also to speak too much on it is because I'm so early in it, you know.

Yeah.

Wow, man, this is beautiful. I'm so happy you're talking about this though. Yeah. And don't feel— and, you know, don't feel like you need to open up about things here or anywhere until you feel you've processed things enough. And you may never need to do that publicly either. It's just—

I appreciate it.

Yeah. Yeah. It's not a— it's not a pressure here for that in any way. But it sounds like You are in a journey of creating a healthy relationship with self. That's what I'm hearing you say.

Yeah, I think, I think so. I think so. I'm also, I'm realizing that it's, it's also imperative for the work I want to make. And it's also, it's like, it's a, it's like to not do it. I think whatever, when you start on, on that, by the time you're ready to sort of do your own little work on yourself, you're ready to realize that not doing this isn't an option. You know, or not, you know, or it's an option, but you've done that, you know what I mean? Or for what's ahead of you and what it is that you want for your life and you feel the experience of living that you would like to get to. It's like you realize, okay, I just kind of have to do this.

What do you think, Andrew, is available for you emotionally, internally, and externally in the world As you continue to navigate this healing journey for yourself, what do you feel like is available for you or your mission?

I think it's— this is maybe not just necessary for the, for the work as well too, for being creative. I just want to walk in step with myself and in a way that, that feels aligned with myself and aligned with the work.

Yeah.

Um, and to, to, I guess, to feel at peace in in whatever the work is that needs to be made.

Have you ever been out of alignment with yourself in this last decade with anything you've created or opportunities you've said yes to where you felt afterwards, that's not really what I wanted to do, or but I did it for ego or because whatever reason?

It happens. I won't give examples. It happens. Or you catch yourself, you catch yourself in a thought of like, yeah, there's always this sort of one more stone. To turn. You know, it's like I always approached things with like, leave no stone unturned.

It's like, you know, just do everything.

Yeah.

And every opportunity.

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah.

Or that can be draining and exhausting.

It can be draining. Yeah. And learning to say no to stuff is something that I'm still cultivating a relationship with.

Yeah.

Or a habit of, I think. Yeah. Or I'm a real— and I think this is an I'm proud of this trait in myself, but that extra hour that I'll put in or that extra 30 minutes or that extra hour, I can hyperfocus on something in those last few, you know, but what happens is sometimes I'll agree to do something and I'll be fully in my mind of like, I do want to do this. It's like, would you do a little bit extra here and add more rather than take this break while I use this time to work? And it's like, Yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that. And then afterwards I realized, okay, why am I feeling exhausted? You know, why am I burnt out? And now I can't function. You know, I can't work as I want to work. So I do want to address, you know, hopefully get better at that.

This has been a powerful section. So I'm grateful we're talking about this, but I have a question about a couple of the things around here. Performance experience. I feel like— I hope they get to come watch you perform live sometime because I feel like it's a spiritual experience for the audience to watch what you do. I'm curious for you, what has been the most spiritual experience you've had while performing on stage where you felt like something is different here? I'm feeling something different. There's an energy that is elevated at a different level than I've ever been to, or maybe I'm seeing myself from a different place, or I'm forgetting the words but I'm singing the word. Like, was there ever a spiritual experience for you that was so big and awe-inspiring while performing?

There's definitely moving, moving experiences. I was gonna joke that I think the spiritual, uh, experiences for— to be in the crowd. I've been in shows and I've, and I've, I've been in such elation. I've been like so ecstatic and kind of lifted by being in crowd energy and all enjoying the same thing. And maybe I was going to make a joke. It's like, it's like the preacher is the least spiritual of all people. You know, the person at the top, it's everyone else is engaging in the spiritual experiences. Preachers is— I'm just kidding. But I think when I'm on stage, there's a kind of a flow state, you know, that you hope to come into. And that's another thing where it's like calming my mind. And this is all connected. It's all connected with mental health. It's all connected with like wellness, but then also like mindfulness as well too. And mindfulness was a big change for me. It was realizing how many conversations were going on, how unpresent my mind was. You know, even sometimes when I was on stage and wanting to just— yeah, it would, it would, it can happen, it can happen. And realizing I, you know, have to remain grounded on stage, remaining present on stage. So you're not— and so meditating before shows I find really, really helpful.

And how would you get distracted on stage before?

It can happen where, again, if I'm releasing music, And there's a lot of emails that I haven't answered. I swear to God.

Right before you're like, oh, thinking about it.

Yeah, but you could be on stage in the middle of a song playing a chord and singing lyrics. And in your mind, I'm not present in that. I'm thinking it's happened where I'm like, I didn't email back.

Come on.

Really? Yeah.

Yeah. Holy cow.

Yeah. Oh, no. You're doing laundry lists in your head while you're in the middle of like singing a song and the crowd are doing their thing.

And how is that even possible? How do you stay focused? I mean, how can you create a performance while thinking about the email you got to send to Larry and management or something?

It's not great. It's like, and I don't, I think that, I think the show potentially, my worry is that the show, I think because it's muscle memory that you just can do it. But it's, it doesn't, you don't feel great about the show, you know, because you weren't present, you know, so. It's been a while now since I would— there's also, that's kind of before, that's when my mind was totally just like haywire. And so mindfulness, you know, meditation and stuff, and I'm super happy that helps you keep, keep you present now on stage. On stage, yeah.

I think creating and sharing my art has brought me more clarity, more peace, more presence, more compassion. More self-awareness, um, and it's made me feel connected to others in a way that nothing else has. Yeah, um, I would say emotion is energy in motion, so it has to move, and if it doesn't move, it gets trapped inside of us and it can become disease, you know, disease or you take it out on somebody in traffic for no reason, right? So you have to find ways to move the energy and to share the stories that are trapped in your mind and in your heart and your body. And there's many modalities to do that. You do breathwork, you can, you know, do yoga, you can go to boxing even and have an intention behind your practice. You can, uh, I don't know, meditate, go to therapy. There's plenty of avenues But one that is underused is creativity. You can create and move the energy and you can alchemize those things that are trapped inside of you so that they transform into something else and you can feel energetically lighter and more free.

What is the poem that you've written, whether it be recently or in the beginning of your creative process, that is giving you the most healing? Personally? Like, when you wrote it, you felt you were healing. Every time you read it or perform it, you feel like you're healing. What is that poem?

Well, I have two immediate answers that come to mind. The first one is a poem about my father not being around and ultimately finding forgiveness. But I think that that's too easy of an answer.

Okay.

And the real answer is going to sound cliché, but it's everyone. And then the next one, the one that hasn't been written, because it's the most current and in real time to my life. And whatever it is that I choose to create around is something that I need to express. It's a breadcrumb trail that I am following. I'm the first person in my audience, so I'm not thinking what other people want to hear. I'm paying attention in my daily life to when I get moved, when I get inspired, when I get pissed off, and I pluck it out of reality and I put it down on paper. And then if I go back to that beginning place, the rest of the poem will almost write itself if I give it enough time and space.

Interesting.

So every single one is a healing process and It's one of the reasons I like to facilitate for other people to do the same thing, because if they choose something moving and meaningful, it can be surprisingly healing.

Yes. You have another quote or poem that you put online that says, how do we talk about the problems without feeding them? If we ignore them, we most likely keep repeating them. If we explore them, we run the risk of reinforcing them. So, so how then do we get down to the source of them? So if we talk about our problems or write about them or create about them, are we feeding the problem or are we solving the problem by processing them? How do we not recreate old traumas or memories or wounds by sharing stories over and over again that we're trying to heal from?

That is a great—

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Question: What you have to do is you have to hold two truths in the same space at the same time.

Give me an example personally.

Holding on and letting go. When I wrote the piece about my father, it was a piece about my anger and ultimately forgiveness and gratitude, but I wasn't able to actualize it until many, many years later. It took me a long time to catch up with the peace. So the peace was almost like a prayer. You have to purge and pray.

Wow.

Simultaneously. And if you do, I promise you, you will wind up feeling like a different person on the other side. And then when you share it with somebody and you're unconditionally loved and seen— to really, like, see and be seen To be willing to be open, to be willing to be vulnerable from a place of strength. It's scary as fuck and it is always worth it.

Wow. So when did you write this poem about your dad?

I think I was in my mid-20s.

Really? Yeah. So like 20 years ago, something like that. Something like that.

45.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So when you wrote it, um, how long did it take for you to fully feel at peace with the relationship you had with him or lack of relationship you had with him? How long did it take you to be like, I'm at peace with this, I forgive, I'm at peace?

Well, I think people think that peace is a destination or like a product. Peace is a process. There's stages of peace. There's layers. That you have to keep uncovering within yourself. So right now I can say I am as fully at peace as I have ever been. I can't say that I am fully at peace, but one thing that I know about my life is every single thing that has ever happened to me, whether I understood it or not, in real time or in retrospect, has become a part of the quilt of who I am. I don't like to compare circumstances. I don't like to compare pain, but I've had a lot of pain in my life, and everything that caused me pain is a part of my identity now. So if I reject that thing, I'm rejecting a part of who I am. Wow.

Yeah.

And so you have to accept it in order to integrate it, in order to alchemize it, in order to move on with it.

What's the most painful thing that you've had to overcome emotionally or internally that maybe it took you a long time to overcome, or maybe it just was a really painful thing to overcome and you really wish didn't happen in the moment. And maybe you still don't wish, but you know, you wouldn't be the identity you are and the man you are without that pain.

I think there's a lot of them that come to mind. Um, I'm not going to share some of them because I'm not ready to put them on display yet, but I go into a lot of those stories in the album and ultimately in the journal. You know, when I created the Never Ending Now album, I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted anybody to hear it.

I know Remember, you know, I was there.

Yeah, because you were one of the few people that I sent it to.

Yeah.

And was willing to trust because of your integrity, because of our friendship, and because I love you.

Yeah.

And I know you've been through real things.

Yeah.

And so I was like, okay, but it's scary putting it out there. 100%. Yeah. I'm taking my own medicine, you know. So I was like, all right, let me— I finished this thing. This work of art that was like a reflection of my path to self-love and love with a partner through poetry and this conversation that was very intimate that I had with my wife. Yeah. Um, and then I was like, I don't know that I want to show this to people, or even weirder, monetize this thing. And leave it open for people to criticize it, to judge it, to validate it, to compliment it. It didn't really matter what their response was. I didn't want to externalize my self-worth that way because it was so close to my heart. And then I was like, all right, I'm gonna send it to like 5 people. And I sent it to 5 people, uh, including you and, uh, Mike Posner, who's a great friend. And Mike was the first person that got back to me. And my criteria for sending it out was, okay, if one person hears the album and hits me back and says, hey, this was moving and meaningful to me, like this landed, then I would put it out. But if everybody was like, yeah, this is good, I really like it. I think you should. Then I wasn't gonna do it. And so Mike hit me back right away, and he was like, literally, he goes, if you don't put this album out, he said, I'll pry it out of your cold dead hands. And then I sent it to you guys, and you listened to it and had, you know, a similar but different response.

Yeah.

Then I was like, all right, let me, let me lead by example, even though it's hard and scary.

Why is it so hard for most people to put out something that is their art or their expression, but also has sadness, pain, loss, embarrassment tied to it in some way? Why is that so challenging for anyone, let alone artists?

Because they're scared to be rejected for truly showing us who they are. But the thing is, like, if I get rejected, if I put this project out and people don't respond to it, or worse, they really don't like it, then at least I know they don't like something that's really me. I mean, I know that the art is separate from me. It's not really me, but it is as close as tracing paper could come when I made it, right? And so I'm like, all right, if they don't like it, at least I know I showed up rather than making something that's perfect, that everybody's going to love. And then they say, wow, I love this thing and I love you, but I don't even feel it because I was never there.

Yeah, it wasn't fully authentic. It wasn't fully you.

Yeah.

Interesting.

How do you do that? Like, for example, I was thinking about many things that you have shared over the years driving over here and the courage that it took to do that. Well, what was and is your process?

I think a lot of it was when I started opening up about vulnerable things to individuals, to friends, to family, and then kind of publicly, you know, my expression to the world in different ways. I think I was so depressed, you know, this, this line from like Jim Carrey comes to me where it's like depression is like you needing deep rest from the character you've been playing. Something like that. It's like you are depressed because you need deep rest from the character you've been playing. It's like you've been wearing some mask, you've been putting on some identity that's not truly you. Maybe parts of you are out there, but not all of you.

Yeah.

And so a lot of me was out there, but there were other parts of me that were afraid if you or anyone actually knew who I was, what I'd been through, what had happened to me, would anyone like me or love me? And that was the ultimate fear. If people truly knew, they would never like me, and then I would be alone, and then I would die alone and suffer for the rest of my life. That's kind of the fear that I had. And so I think I just felt like I'd rather be alone and no one like me than everyone know you know, just parts of me and not all of me. And I think it got to that point when I hit 30 that I realized there were parts of me that people weren't aware of, and I wasn't willing to face them myself, let alone share them with other people. And that just wasn't the life I wanted to live anymore. Now, it was scary on the other end because I didn't want to live alone, and I don't want to have people not like me or love me or accept me. But I think that's the risk probably every artist has to take to put their expression out there, that you may not be liked or understood or loved. You may be criticized or hated or whatever might be, you know, taken advantage of for who you truly are. And I think that's the biggest fear. But I'd rather feel free and have no friends than be a prisoner and have everyone like me.

I very much relate to that. I have a line that says you have to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved. Ooh. Otherwise, it's your representative they're thinking of. It's like, uh, that disguise thing that you're talking about, that character that you're playing, and you're doing it for good reasons— survival, you know, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual. If you felt unsafe in your life, that's where the character came from.

Exactly.

But the thing is, it's exhausting to walk around with all that armor.

Draining. What was that? What's that poem called that you were just—

I think it's called Birdsong. You know, I never really like name my, my pieces until I actually put them out.

Can you share that one? Can you perform that one? Do you have that one?

Yeah, I actually do. The birds aren't singing to win a Grammy. They're not trying to go platinum through their marketing or planning. They're just jamming. I listen without even understanding. The truth without agenda is authentically astounding. It makes me think of cheetahs. They don't run for our approval. They don't judge their spots or contemplate laser hair removal. It makes me think of wolves. They don't howl for validation. They don't have to get the perfect pic to post on their vacation. It makes me think of eagles. They're not soaring to impress me, although once I saw a dolphin backflip over a jet ski. My point is, neither one of them would sell me shit on Etsy, and I doubt a porcupine would ever try to come off sexy. Humans are the only animals pretending to be something that they're not.

Wow.

Why are we ashamed of what we've got? We should strut chest out, head up. Let's be proud of ourselves for once. Isn't it exhausting sticking out your butt and sucking in your gut? And for what? It's a waste of energy. I'm giving up. In this moment, I'm enough. In this moment, you're enough. In this moment, we're enough. I'm dismantling my We are perfect in our flaws. Birds don't care whether we listen, they don't wait for our applause. I have built a lovely prison, but I live behind the walls. So if love is my religion, I'll escape when freedom calls. You have to be willing not to be liked in order to be loved. Otherwise, It's your representative they're thinking of. But to truly be yourself, you have to let go of what was. The past is like a prison. It's an echo repeating just because, cause, cause. We are many people in our lives, so I'm not one to judge, but if they love one part of you, it's limited to what that does. I want your whole soul. I have no goal. Show me the unseen stuff. Don't invite me over only after you have cleaned up. Perfect makes me want to kick my feet up. No one's living in a catalog IKEA dreamed up. Have you ever seen a lion chase 100 zebras? Have you ever seen a turtle hide inside a shell? A caterpillar doesn't know that she'll become a butterfly. So if you go to heaven, are you still aware of hell?

Wow, wow. When did you write that one?

I don't remember.

Is it like a few years ago or is this like a decade ago?

I mean, no, it's like a few years ago.

It's more recent.

Yeah, I was on the phone with a friend of mine and, uh, the birds were just like really loud, and during the conversation I said something about the birds aren't singing to win a Grammy. Wow. And then I thought, you know what, I like that. That's a good—

that's a good line.

Pause the conversation. I wrote it down and then started to build on it later.

Of all the poems that you've written and performed, how many of them talk about love?

I think all of them in some form or fashion, but I think Some of them are self-love, some of them are romantic love, some of them are love of God, some of them are love of humanity, nature, all of it.

What would you say— how long have you been doing poetry, would you say, like officially, you know, as part of your thing? Not just like, I did it when I was like 7, a little bit here and there, but like, what was the year where you're like, oh, I'm doing this consistently?

Do you remember? I mean, I think I'm past 30 years.

30 years?

Yeah, it's like one of the longest, at least internal relationships of my life.

Wow.

You know, my, my relationship with rhythm and rhyme. Yeah.

What do you feel like has been the biggest lesson around self-love in the last 30 years of writing and performing poetry that you've discovered and had to learn?

Well, it's something that I try to teach other people. Like when I facilitate for the poetry workshops in person and why we created this journal in partnership with Passion Planner to scale those workshops without me having to be there, I automatically take away anybody's blocks by saying, don't try to make something great. Make something true. And if you make something true, it will automatically be great. And I'm telling people stuff that I need to relearn over and over and over again, because if I sit down and I say I'm gonna make something great, I'm just getting in my own way. I'm turning my back on the muse. I have to be willing to just take the ride. Some of the best poems for me are poems where I'm surprised at where they go.

Really?

Yeah, because I don't get overly strategic before I start writing. I just start in some sort of a spark and then see what fire it turns into.

So it might be, okay, I heard the birds sing and you thought of this idea. Maybe you're on the phone with a music person and you're like, oh, they're not singing to win a Grammy.

Me.

And you're like, okay, where could I take this in other areas of life? Is that kind of how it starts? Or— yeah, okay, the birds are this, the wolves this, the bears the this, you know. It's like, let's keep the analogies going.

And then, yeah, it's like basically you're, you're building, um, railroad tracks, and you're the railroad tracks, and you're the train, and you're the conductor. And you're the beginning, middle, and end, the destination, wherever you wind up. And you're also none of those things because you're the, the observer.

Wow.

Um, so it's a spiritual practice, creativity.

You have this other, uh, do you call them poems when you put something online, like an Instagram post? Is that like a short poem, or is that like a phrase within a poem usually?

Well, uh, yes, it's usually a phrase within a much larger poem, which is, to be quite honest, very annoying to me. You know, I want— of course, please follow me on Instagram, but it's like I always feel like it's a truncated version of what the art is. And that's why I'm excited to put out actual, like, finished pieces that people can experience on their own time. So it's a great window into my work, but I'm not sure.

Snippets. It's not the full thing. You have this, you know, poem within a poem, I guess you call it, about love that you shared recently. It said, love is not a guarantee. It will come and it will leave. It relies on your belief, so it will bring you to your knees. Love is weak. Love is lost. Love is grief. Love is loss. Love is risk. Love is real. But love is worth the pain we feel. Where did that come from?

Let me say the next line.

Yes.

And I won't let the fear of losing you limit how I'm loving you.

Oh my gosh. Can you share that whole poem?

Yeah, yeah. Let me actually give you the behind the context.

Give me the context.

So I was doing this collaboration piece, um, and it was like a marketing team and a brand that were involved in this project. I don't want to go into the specifics because it really doesn't matter.

Yeah, yeah.

But they had liked this particular poem that had already been written, and it ends, save the day with love. So we're on this like planning call about the piece of art collaborative project that we're doing. And one of the guys goes, hey, is there any way we can change the final word? Because he goes, love is a bit soft. And he goes, I want to end on something that has more like strength and pizzazz. And I was like, no, because it's not your poem, first of all. Yeah, no, respectfully. Second of all, I don't look at love as soft. I said, I look at love as hard. And he goes, okay. And then the conversation ended and I hung up and I wrote this piece. Love is not soft. Love is hard. Love is not smooth. Love is scarred. Love is not perfect. Love is flawed. Love is not quiet. Love is loud. Love is not pride. Love is proud. But love is not certain. Love is doubt. And love is not leaving. Love's turning around. Love's learning to fight for the middle ground. Love is not gentle. Love is rough. Love is not fragile. Love is tough. Love is not thinking that love is enough. So I choose to love you harder from the moment I wake up. Love is a revolutionary act. Love is an attack. Love is not abstract. Love is a fact. Love is saying yes when I want to say no. Love is saying stay when I want to say go. Love is staying high even when I get low. Love is going with the flow, holding on and letting go. Because love is not easy. Love is complex. Love is not right or wrong. Love is context. Love is not black or white. Love is progress because love is not a product. Love is a process. Yes. So in the simple moments, when the chaos fades away, in the silence of the evening, or the empty of my day, I remember what it feels like to give my heart away and think how lucky I have been to get to love someone this way, and how lucky we still are to get to love someone this way. It's a miracle to be alive. That's why I have to say love is not a guarantee. It will come and it will leave. It relies on my belief, so it will bring me to my knees. Love is weak. Love is loss. Love is grief. Love is loss. Love is risk. Love is real, but love is worth the pain I feel. And I won't let the fear of losing you limit how I'm loving you. I'm gonna love you harder. It's a privilege to be hugging you. I'm gonna love you harder, more than ever before. I'm at peace with knowing love is war. That's what we're fighting for. So love harder. First yourself, then your family, your friends, your co-workers, your neighbors in your community. Then try to love a stranger. Try to tap into your empathy. Imagine that you've known them and protected them since infancy. Now try to love the people that you don't love at all. Even people you don't like, they probably need it most of all. And if you can't love them big, see if you can love them small. See if you can hold compassion for the holes that they are. And they are. But love is not soft. Love is hard. Love is scarred. Love is flawed. Love is loud. Love is proud. Love is doubt. And since love is most important when we do not know how, I will choose to love you harder in the never-ending now.

Wow. Holy cow. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I wanna remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

A rich life isn't a straight line to a destination on the horizon. Sometimes it takes an unexpected turn with detours, new possibilities, and even another passenger or three. And with 100 years of navigating ups and downs, you can count on Edward Jones to help guide you through it all. Because life is a winding path made rich by the people you walk it with. Let's find your rich together. Edward Jones, member SIPC.

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