Hozier Opens Up: “I Was At War With Myself” - How to Begin to HEAL & UNBLOCK Your Creativity

At just 24 years old, Andrew Hosier Byrne captured the world's attention with his hit song Take Me to Church. Today we'll explore how he navigated the immense success and pressure that followed and whether he experienced imposter syndrome. Amidst the praise, Andrew will also share his insights on balancing the desire to serve his audience while staying true to his art and how he learned to prioritize his passion for music over chasing chart rankings. I'm Lewis Howes and this is the school of Greatness. Now let's dive into today's episode with Hozier.

I honestly felt I was never going to write another song.

Really?

Yeah. Sometime during the pandemic and I hit this kind of wall where I couldn't move forward and I felt I'd written my very last song. Your first made noise with his breakout.

Single we were all obsessed with Take Me to Church earning a rare diamond certification.

And since then it has become one.

Of the top 30 most streamed songs ever on Spotify. Please welcome singer songwriter Hozier.

So I was absolutely at war with myself. Constantly. Constantly. Yeah, yeah.

How did that look like on a daily bas for that being?

It's like I couldn't have a thought without an opposing thought, you know, so it's like my brain was kind of split in two. I'd have a thought and then a thought to combat with that. The artist's question of okay, like it's knowing that art has such potential to heal, it's easier to just once you make the conversation with yourself, well, what am I trying to make sense of within myself. It's quite paralyzing to be confronted with. And the great, great question of will this heal somebody? Will this fix this thing? Maybe music is in that you can discover a song at any time. You know, you can discover an artist from the 80s or 70s, 50s, but you gain what you create in that moment as you discover it is something that's spontaneous and is happening now.

What is the biggest thing you still struggle with today?

Really great question. But like very challenging ones. But yeah, I kind of want to phone a friend.

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Hey. Thank you so much for having me.

So glad that you're here. I remember about 10, 11 years ago when Take me to Church came out and it was kind of the anthem for the world. I feel like it was on repeat on my playlist, on everyone's playlist. And it really catapulted you into another level of success. Stardom, financial gain and opportunities. You know, one of the most downloaded or one of the most streamed songs of all time on Spotify. 13 times Platinum diamond certified Grammy nominated. I mean, every type of award you could get you received or nominated for at a very young age. 22, I believe, right?

Little bit older. I think it was 24.

24. Okay. So 24. I'm curious if I would have had that much fame, success, money at 24. I think I would have. My ego would have got the best of me. I would have probably, I don't know, done things that I would have been ashamed of later in life. I probably would have, like, I don't know, just not been the best person with that much everyone. Tell me you're incredible. You're a gift to the world. You're successful. How did you navigate success that early and the pressure to live up to some potential at 24 when the world was watching and listening to you?

Yeah, I think. Thank you. I think, I think first of All I give yourself some credit. I think you navigated very gracefully, and when you're in that situation, something of your makeup or your ingredients just steers you hopefully in the right way. What I will say is that I had really good. I had good friends around me, you know, at a grounded sense around me. I had a very grounded upbringing. Some of this is maybe cultural and some of this is personal cultural side of it. Being Irish, I was naturally suspicious of kind words being said about me or to me, you know, at a time when. Especially coming to a city like this or at a time when. Yeah, that's. The song was. Was making the rounds and it was. It was. It was a hit, you get a lot of attention. And I think my natural response to that oftentimes was not suspicion necessarily, but a kind of a guarded skepticism, you know.

So you didn't buy into your own hype.

Yeah, that was it. That's a good way of putting it, you know, and. And some of that's personal as well, too. I. I'm not great at receiving praise, working on that. As time goes on, as life moves on. So it never. I never internalized it, you know, I never internalized the noise around the. The success of the song as something that I would graft onto my person. You know, that's something that I think hopefully suits me. I could maybe have done with pat myself on the back one once.

Did you not give yourself the credit where you just kind of like, well, it's still not good enough or I should be better or I need to do it again?

Yeah, it was more that I felt maybe I had. I felt like I hadn't because it was the first song I'd ever released.

Gosh, that's crazy, man.

Yeah. Yeah. So it felt like. And it's a song I just like. I. I threw together in my. In my parents attic. I had moved back to. I'd moved back home from living in. In Dublin and I realized I did not have. You know, it was like that point where I was like, okay, long term, I can't keep paying this rent. I'm going to move back if I'm going to be a musician. I was staying with my parents for a brief time and yeah, I just threw the song together in my attic.

In like, what, a day? A couple hours. A few days.

To be fair, I was writing that song for, like, lyrically for over a year. So I had been sitting on this egg, this like, lyrical thing, but it came together musically rather fast. But maybe there was some part of Me that felt like, have I earned this? You know, did I, you know, have I been doing this for 10 years? You know, and I've been sitting. I've been obviously stewing over writing music. I've been writing songs for years. At that point, I wasn't sharing them with the world, but I've been writing them to myself and for myself. And I had been for a couple of years doing sort of open mic stuff, working on other people's projects, but it felt very quick and very early. So there was a. An imposter syndrome thing.

Really?

Sure, yeah, of course. Yeah, big time. So that's probably another thing that I was like, okay, yeah, it's, you know, maybe I felt I had more to.

Do, you know, like you had improved yourself enough and done the reps enough, or. Yeah, but you were doing open mic for a couple of years, you said. I think I saw you run a, you know, a choir for a while, an orchestra choir for a while as well. So you'd been in music. I think I said, I learned that you picked up a guitar. 15. So at that time, about nine years at least of guitar, singing, songwriting, open mics.

Yeah.

So it wasn't that you just started the year before.

True, true. No, I. And as time goes on, I'm able to sort of look back and go, no, you know what? I. You know, and part of that is. Is that's a personal journey of going, no, like, it happened because I did like, I worked like a. Like a dog, you know, to. To. To bring that song to. To where it. Where it got to. At the time, I. I wasn't. I wasn't present in that, you know, really? I don't think so.

So in this first, I guess six months after the song is released and you start to see this meteoric rise on the song's success, where you're getting invited to all the awards ceremonies, you're performing on stages with other big names now, and everyone wants to talk to you or interview you. What is going through your mind? Are you thinking I'm not deserving of this, or I'm not worthy of this, or are you thinking I'm an imposter?

I don't know. I think there's some switch that in your brain. As soon as somebody says, like, you know, I love your song or I love your, you know, great, great work on that or whatever, there's some switch in your brain that just like a. Like this little psychic wall goes up and the. The compliment, the. The whatever, the noise, the glitter and the roar of that moment just hits against that wall and falls. Falls away.

Really?

I think so. Yeah, I think so. It's. It's a. It's a.

Did that. If you had that, you know, that wall, did you feel like it helped you in managing the pressure then because you weren't believing all of it quickly?

Maybe so. Maybe so. There might be a coping mechanism to it in that it's. The flip side of that, is that, okay, you can shrug off then the pressure to be this thing rather than internalize this being whatever that everyone else is experiencing around you as yourself that you don't necessarily experience.

Yeah.

You don't have to deal with the weight of that or the pressure of that or the duality of that. Maybe you're just like, I don't know what you're all talking about. I don't know what the hype is. And maybe that makes it easier. So there might be a coping element to it. Yeah.

I feel like there must be such a pressure for artists on that type of a platform and stage to create meaning around life, for humanity to have the answers to society's problems, to help people heal with their pain and their problems. Do you ever felt like you were put in a position to try to, you know, answer the world's problems through your art too quickly before you actually lived life enough?

It's a. That's a. It's such a broad. It's such a deep, broad question about, like, about art. Or it's not. It's necessarily its purpose, you know, or. Or it's. It's potential, maybe, you know, and. And the artist's question of, okay, like. Like, it's. Knowing that art has such potential to heal and to comfort and to offer a reflection or offer a new perspective or a new window into meaning, especially around suffering. And there's plenty of that in the world. I think that that can be a challenge maybe for any artist to. Even before they step into the creation of a work is. Is. And I've. I've definitely felt this. Is that you are confronted with the potential of that work. And, and that is. That's very difficult. And I think it's. It's easier to just. Once you make the conversation with yourself as to, okay, well, what am I trying to make sense of within myself? What is coming up? What, you know, if I pull on this rope, what comes up from the well, you know, what's in that bucket? And then. Okay, to try and feel that, get a sense of that. You know, I think that's Maybe that's the starting place. I think it's near. It's quite paralyzing to be confronted with the great, great question of will this heal somebody? Will this fix this thing? That's impossible. And there is some part of you at some point, and I think, I don't know if you're in any way a sort of a. Somebody who tends to, you know, care deeply for people and. Or is in any way a people pleaser or is trying to fix people's problems around you. There is this. You're like, oh, no, this must be all things to all people. And part of the challenge, I think, is letting go of that.

So when you write that, you know, I'm assuming you'd written many songs before Take Me to Church. You know, growing up, you're writing songs, but that was the first one that you kind of released into the world, I guess, right? Were you thinking ever, how is this going to impact others? When you write a song and put it out in the world, are you thinking more, this is how this impacts me. And I just want to share that with others.

It was a little bit of both. I think there was two things. There was one thing I wanted. I wanted the song to speak to the legacy of. Of that institution of the institutionalized Roman Catholic Church, specifically in Ireland. I didn't think that that song was going to have an international audience. I. I didn't even think that that song was going to have like a broad Irish audience. I. I wrote this song as an unsigned, unknown, you know, artist who was just. I suppose there was an anger behind it. It was. This is the, you know, knowing and even did not know the extent of the legacy of that institution. You know, we had like a few years after its release. We're still, if you're familiar with essentially a grave site that they found in a town called Toomb in Galway, where you'd been. I won't go into it now, but like all sorts of stuff with that legacy. So what I was just trying to process was the kind of personal questions of the personal and the intimate and this and the romantic and the sexual, and trying to take back what is divine in those things, take back what can be, what we might consider sacred in those things, wrestling them back from. From the. From. From an institution whose legacy is. Is so harmful. Right. So it was more that, you know, and. But there was never a. There was a thought as I was writing it that there will be a very, very few people who will see what I'm doing here in this Song and will appreciate it. But I thought it was like, I.

Thought locals in Ireland or something, small audience, pub crowd who's like, you're gonna go sing an open mic four and sing this song?

Yeah, it would be. I was proud of the song, but beyond that, it was more, it was more in conversation with me and it was a lot of those lyrics I had in a notebook that I kept with me for a year at that point.

I had interviewed many best selling authors, a handful who sold 5, 10 million copies of their book. I had Liz Gilbert on one time. She wrote the book Eat Pray Love and she did a famous TED talk about how, how to grapple with her best work or her most known work, potentially being behind her.

Right.

Like, because she sold 10 million copies. It was this global movie. It was like this phenomenon that took off in the world when she wrote it and how to navigate life after potentially what could be the biggest success you could ever have. She was like, I probably won't write a book again that does another 10 million copies. It's very rare to do that. Have you ever thought about that of like just how to navigate a long career with such a big hit early on and not let needing to chase downloads or streams or charts be the driver for you? Like your first single.

Yeah, yeah. It's a tricky one.

And, and, and if it doesn't do that, well, like, am I a failure? Is something wrong? You know, do you ever think about that?

Yeah. You know what, it, it's something that you gain. It's like a relationship thing. As time goes on, I'm kind of laughing to myself. A member of my label team who's been with me since the very beginning. Betsy is next door, so she's going to hear me talk now about it. Yeah, I don't care about string. No, no, no. Of course you love that the work is seen or heard by as many ears as possible if they connect with it. I think there is, and there is one part of you maybe that would love that. I think that as time goes on and Even then, even 10 years ago, I recognize that and this is maybe what's most important to me is that the music that I want to make and the music that I feel moved to make does not necessarily, necessarily belong in the spaces of the top 10. Music that is geared towards social spaces and party atmospheres. Music that is like oftentimes points towards an aspirational sort of whatever it is. A lot of the time it's club life or it's music that celebrates or Engages in a kind of. A conspicuous consuming of. Of life and it's. And it's. And its pleasures etc, you know, but one that isn't. But here I can't. It would be a bit silly of me to. To be all woe is me and want to. Want to write songs about, you know, whatever the Roman Catholic Church or songs that. That. That, you know, the legacy of colonialism or. Or. Or occupation or something like that. And go, wife, wife. Why isn't this in. Why is this hitting the world like. Yeah, so. But. So it's not. It's not. It's. It's just that I don't necessarily feel aligned, you know, and I'm okay with that and what I am. But this is why I feel like so lucky. So I'm very much at peace with it not being. Those are as well. Those are oftentimes. Those are external. Those are. That's external validation. Again. It's that thing of like when I was in. That I also wasn't fulfilled in any sort of like by that external validation in a. In a very. In a personal way. Yes, there's all of these, you know, it's great and there's wonderful opportunities, but I wasn't getting from that external validation. I wasn't getting a voice in my head saying, oh yeah, now I've arrived and now I feel good about myself and I'm. This would be the same for anybody. I'm sure you're probably the very same. So reminding myself of that, you know, helps. But then also just to know that. And this is where I feel incredibly fortunate. I feel like I want for nothing is that I can write. I write songs. I feel on my own terms with stuff that does. I do, you know, move me or I feel as I feel moved to write not exactly subject material all the time that. That says, come on in. This is easygoing, like listening, you know, and. And playing around with like, literary influences, like from centuries ago. And yet I still see that I'm selling more tickets now than I was when Tickets was a hit. Yeah, like we're. I'm sending far more tickets for shows. Right, right.

Go, man.

It's cool. It's.

Why do you think you're selling more a decade later after, you know, your first big hit?

I think part of it is time. Part of it is there's a whole new generation of people now that are exploring the work who are maybe 10 years, 11 years old. When. When my first songs came out and.

They were listening to it then and.

They were Listening to it and, and, and what's, what's. It's like. It's like cool. They were listening to it when they were 10 or 11 in the car as they were being driven to school. What's nuts to me is that they're buying tickets to come to the shows now.

That's amazing.

It's really, it's. Yeah. And I, I feel really fortunate. I feel incredibly blessed at that. And I think part of it is that maybe it's just the nature of song is that it's hopefully that the work is lasting and people have had 10 years to gain a relationship with the music and it has been part of their lives for 10 years. And in that way, yeah, it's, you know, and maybe music is special in that we can. Can discover a song at any time. You know, you can discover an artist from the 80s or 70s, 50s, but you gain what you create in that moment as you discover it is something that's spontaneous and is happening now. You create a memory. You create a relationship with that work and that's of the moment. And if you could buy tickets to go and see that artist now, you would, you know. It does.

That's so true.

Yeah.

It's interesting. As you're saying this, I'm reflecting on my childhood. Like my. My parents would play when we go on like a trip or something, like driving through to go skiing or whatever, we're camping or something. They would play the Beatles a lot. You know, a Season of Time where they'd play the Beatles. And I was like, oh, I didn't know who the Beatles were until I did know who they were because they started playing it. And then I got to hear all these songs and I was like, wow, this is so fascinating. And you know, whatever. 40 years later, then these songs were hits. Yeah, I discover them totally, totally.

And probably have a relationship with those songs in the same way that somebody did in the 60s in some regard. That interesting, you know? Yeah. I think I found that when I was rediscovering a lot of music that my dad would have played in the house that I was unaware of. I. When I first. When I was like in my teens listening to like 12 bar blues, I was. I didn't. I. I had a feeling of like, oh, this is one home. Listening to this music, like this feels like home to me. But there was. There was something that was nearly like I had been listening to like classic rock and roll, like blues music. 12 and 8 bar blues. He was in a blues band. He was in like he was covering blues music. There was always tapes he had like these tapes of the material that is. That his band was working on and stuff like from before I was born. But I, I did notice that the music that, that just was always playing in the house. I had no conscious awareness of it when it was being played. But then when I was a teenager.

It was just in the background.

It was in the background. Yeah. And. But I was able to, I had, I forged this relationship with it that, that I just felt very comfortable with at home with and. I don't know. Yeah, I think that's, that can be powerful too. You know what I mean? It's. Yeah. I think the relationship you form. They say that, you know, when we evolved as, as into the beings that we are, that our auditory senses evolved long before our visual. So I think there's something about hearing things, about listening to things that's, there's something quite deep in it, you know, wow. We hear our parents voices long before we see them, you know. So in some regards, I mean, we hear music before we engage in any other type of artistic medium, where we're listening to music right in the womb.

Even before we understand it, we're hearing it.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm curious. In the last decade, what has been the biggest transformation you've seen within yourself through this journey of success and experience and making all this art? And what is the biggest thing you still struggle with today?

Really great question. But like, very challenging ones.

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Yeah.

Even with the, the success that you've created.

Yeah.

It's a school of greatness. Andrew.

Yeah, no, yeah, totally. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Got to expect those great, those great questions you know, but yeah, I kind of want to phone a friend. The. I think. I think stuff I've learned about myself is. I mean, I've done a lot of personal, personal work. I used to think that realizing that creating, maybe this is one thing I can offer that being creative and creating and my relationship with, with myself was also, you know, my relationship with the work is very often dependent on my relationship with myself, you know.

What do you mean by that?

That's. It's a thing. It's like whether it's self doubt or it's self criticism, an internal monologue that is largely negative. Something I took for granted my whole life. It didn't catch up with me until a couple of years ago when I realized I honestly felt I was never going to write another song ever.

Really?

Yeah. Sometimes during the pandemic and I hit this kind of wall where I couldn't move forward anymore and I felt I'd written my very last song and I had to come round to. Okay, no, this is, this is, this is just. It's the same voices, but they're just louder now because there's nothing to distract me, you know. So I think that was, you know, in the pandemic that was part.

You weren't able to tour. You weren't able to go out and distract yourself. Not that tour is a distraction, but you weren't able to. You had to sit still now.

Yeah.

And hear everything coming in.

Yeah. And in some ways, tourism, magnetic, magnificent distraction. And it's a job in which you're constantly putting out fires. You know, Every day is another little crisis, you know. And, you know, I still get. I won't say, would you call it stage fright, but like I'm still having to regulate my body constantly. I'm terrible. You know what I mean? Every day is like, really? Oh yeah, ten minutes. Yeah. I'm like, I can't do this. Yeah, yeah. Come on. Yeah, yeah. There's an element of like nerves and, and like I am not able. I, you know, I'm not able to, to. To do this. It's so funny. I was joking with some of the band and this is maybe a magician thing. We're two week. We had a, A few weeks break. I was a month into a couple of weeks after break and I was, I was trying to think. Now this is maybe because a lot of playing is muscle memory. You don't think about when it's automatic, you know. But I was, I was trying to think to myself, it's like, how do I play that song on guitar. Visualize.

Or.

I couldn't visualize a fretboard. I couldn't visualize finger movement. So. But, yeah, no, there is. There's. There is. There is always this creeping voice that's, you know, and it's. Look, it's immaterial. You. You. You find your way around it. You find your step over it, you know, and you. And you ground yourself and stuff. But. Yeah, but in. In. So. But creatively, I think when you are exactly as you describe, there was no distractions, like injuring the pandemic. So. But tour is. There's plenty. There's always something to do, whether it's press promo, you know, meetings. I'm oftentimes releasing music at the same time, so that's looking at artwork, video edits, mixes, mastering. And I'm constantly. I'll be honest, like, constantly. A little bit over, like, just a little bit under. Overwhelmed, you know, and like, I'm just. The nose is like, you know, you're on the line. It's a nostril, you know, can barely breathe. But yeah, yeah. And part of me, you know, it's also realizing, okay, is this. Is this by design? Am I trying to keep myself up here?

Interesting.

Because.

Because you didn't want to face yourself. Maybe.

Yeah, you just. Yeah, you operate. Operate well in that space, or you. At least you function in that way. But.

Yeah, maybe it's not well, but you're like, you're operating.

Yeah, you're operating, or you're. You're. Yeah, you're operating. You're getting everything that needs to be done, done.

So pandemic hits and that all stops and you have to face yourself.

I guess so. Yeah.

What was the biggest fear that came to you when you weren't able to go on tour? You weren't seeing people and you had to turn around and face the parts of you that maybe you weren't aware of yet.

I can't recall exactly if it was a feeling of fear. There was a feeling of maybe sorrow that came with it and sort of. It's just a lowness, you know what I mean? Just sort of a very. Like a. You know, And I think. I think anybody who's maybe prone to sort of depressive episodes or is, you know, will be familiar with it, but it's this kind of. I just slowed down in all. In all. In all forms. And I just felt no rouge. I saw no ability to. To write, nor. It was. And any. Any attempt to make it was. Seemed impossible. I also fully believe. And this is A funny thing about when you're in that mindset, I fully believe that I could not. I did not know how to write a song, despite all evidence against it. I was like, oh, no, I actually don't know how to do this.

So how many songs have you written at this point?

Oh, like, you know, probably, you know, over 100. Or, you know, obviously ones that don't get released.

Right?

Like, yeah, but like. Like, there's something. I do do all the time, but there's something enters into the mind, and I realize it's like, oh, no, this has nothing to do with this. This is something else. So again, it's about relationship itself, you know, and so that was something I learned.

What was your relationship with yourself? Like?

I think I didn't have much of one, you know, so. And it was more just realizing, okay, I'm gonna have to cultivate a very positive relationship with myself, you know, and actually kind of put, you know, begin to address the root of some of this stuff and put an arm around myself and. Wow. Actually, so that was the beginning of one of the more significant changes in my life, I would say, is. Is tending to actually, you know, into. By the time I was 30, actually, like. Like tending to, let's say, mental health and a relationship with self and Which I had. I had just avoided doing, you know, because I. I could sort of. I felt like maybe I could work my way around it or I could. I could, you know, but once you can't run anymore, you know, it's. I'd sometimes describe it as a hamster wheel had to stop spinning. You know what I mean? And so you. Then you're forced to sit in your little cage, you know what I mean? So. And kind of look around and take it in and go, okay, made something not right about this.

What is the thing that you realized about your identity with yourself or your relationship to yourself when you no longer were chasing or on tour or distracted by facing yourself?

I think it was. I'd say you could say it was defined by. I had a very largely a combative relationship with myself, so I was absolutely at war with myself constantly. Yeah. Yeah.

How did that look like on a daily basis? What would that mean?

It's like I couldn't have a thought without an. Without an opposing thought, you know, so it's like my brain was kind of split in two that it. I'd have a thought and then a thought to combat with that. So.

No, that's not real. That's not true. This is the truth. This Is real. And then.

Yeah.

Going back and forth.

Yeah. Or it's. And. But when in. At times and like, I guess like your state, you know, you're not always. Sometimes you're at a seven, some days are three, some days are nine, some days are. You know, creatively, it's like that could really slow me down because it's like, I think this is a nice idea. I think this is beautiful. No, it's not. You know, so you. I couldn't hold. I couldn't hold one thought at the same time oftentimes. So it was, it was challenging. I won't go into the nitty and the gritty of like my whole experience. But yeah, that's probably for another, you know, him. But. But no, it definitely put roadblocks up, you know. And so that was a big change when I started to address that.

How did you navigate the process? And I'm assuming there wasn't. I mean, I don't know. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know if in Ireland growing up there was a lot of talk around mental health and having a good relationship with yourself and a healthy identity and you know, I don't know if there was or not, but how did you learn to develop that then during that time without having any of those skills or tools for the first 30 years of your life?

There wasn't, there wasn't really. You know, and especially it's not something even. I mean more so my parents generation would have had any sort of. Not. Not really, you know, not in a kind of a. This is something we can talk about. It's a day to day thing, you.

Know, kind of like suck it up and let's not talk about it and keep moving forward and just everything's good.

Very 1970s, you 60s and 70s. But I'm very grateful to sort of to, to. To have access to. To more. To be more present in. In the day to day with my actual lived experiences as opposed to just. Yeah, just having this kind of.

Wow, man.

Yeah.

So you're. I mean I'm. I'm really grateful you're talking about this because I wrote a whole. I wrote a whole book called the Mask of Masculinity. Okay. Seven years ago now. Yeah. Where. Because growing up I felt like I had to be, you know, this strong man. I could never cry, I could never show my emotions in school, sports. And it tormented me inside, you know, it tormented me emotionally feeling like I had to wear a mask to fit in and belong. But it wasn't My truest authentic self. And when I hit about 30, that's when I started to unwind and start to navigate therapy myself and reflect and heal. And it's. It's. It was extremely challenging. It's probably the hardest thing I've ever done, is to let go of those masks and open myself up to myself, turn around and look at all the parts of me that I was ashamed of or afraid of or scared of or insecure of and actually acknowledge them and look at them and start to heal the little boy inside of me that still had a lot of guards up and fears and insecurities and doubts and shame and angers and resentments and all these different things that I was not proud of and started to integrate my current self with my younger self and mend the wounds, the emotional or psychological wounds that were stored in the body and the nervous system. Yeah. To create alignment. Yeah. With the present and the now. And it was the most challenging thing I've ever done in my life, but it set me free. And as I'm sure you're. You're in right now, healing is a journey. And I'm 10 years deep in the healing work, and I've never felt more free. Also knowing that you can't just stop doing the work.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like, I still go to therapy every month. I still show up and allow myself to talk about it and process things in a healthy, conscious way, in a safe way. And I think it's really inspiring to hear you talking about this because I can only imagine the amount of pressures that artists feel to create art. And I think a lot of artists tend to create from pain or suffering. It seems like. Rather than peace and joy. But it's probably challenging because you're sharing it with the world, but you also still need to deal with it yourself. And just a. Probably a messy process. Yeah.

The whole sharing from or writing from also let me just. I just want to address. It's like, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And it's beautiful. It's also, It's. It's very similar to what you. What you describe. And I think I was 30 also took me 30 years of living in a way where. Where I realized I can't do this anymore. I can't live like this anymore. And I've waited too long to feel like I. I can. I can cope. You know what I mean?

And it isn't interesting that no amount of success or money or fame will give you that peace or freedom that you're looking for.

Yeah. 100% isn't that interesting?

Yeah, but I think a lot of people, I don'. That's what you were doing. I don't think you were chasing that. You were being an artist and it took off.

Yeah.

But I think a lot of people in society, in the world are looking to accelerate their career, to have more status, to make more money, to have, you know, flashier things or success, to fulfill a part of them that is insecure or afraid or doubting something.

Yeah.

And the more I did that and the more others do that, it doesn't solve the problem. Yeah. You still have to turn around and look at yourself at some point.

Totally. And I think it's largely unconscious, this driving. You know what I mean? But that sort of thing of dry. And I do think about this a lot. Whether would I be driven to be. You know, because surely the work, it's his question. Surely the work is enough. Like if I just loved songs and I just wanted to write them, do I need everybody to hear them? You know, what's, what's, what's the point?

Why go on tour? Why do this? Why do. Yeah, yeah.

You know, why did I, why did I need it? So there is, I sometimes wonder, you know, what part of me needed to be witnessed, you know, or what, you know, and I think a lot of people who are driven towards work in the public view. I'm not saying everybody, I'm just saying generally there's. I think you, you might be correct in that there, where there is a. All of us are driven in some way from maybe some, some unobserved place that, that in some way that all of us think, okay, if I get this thing or I do this thing, all my problems will be solved. You know, we all imagine this picture in our, in our heads, you know, of, of that arrival point that just never comes or you get there, you'll see the picture and it'll align with the picture in your mind. And, and then you put the feeling is, is. Is not there.

It's still not enough. You still want more.

Yeah.

Are you still comparing to what your peer might be doing? Oh, they're getting this opportunity, right?

Yeah, yeah, totally. And it's something you shared about, about, you know, that thing, it's kind of that self parenting thing of like getting relationship with yourself as a child. A friend of mine once described, described it quite, quite beautifully, I have to say, of like getting to this point in that process of then looking out from some moment of their life and just reminding, pausing to remind themselves to invite their child to watch it with them and to, to stand in space, either whether through the, the window of their, of their home or at some event that they were at and to imagine in their mind's eye that their child was there to say, hey, look, you know, look where we are. You did this. You know, and I, I'm quite moved by that. Just to, just to bring your child into that and go like. Because there's some, there's some. Sometimes there's a, there's this sort of switch that happens where we think, no, I took, I took myself away from these circumstances and I did all of this on my own. But to turn around to your kid and say, hey, you know, I want you to see this. Wow, how, how great you did, you know, and how you, you did this, you know, we did this together. Isn't this cool? And just to, to let your kids sort of smile at that.

That's beautiful.

And him. Yeah. And I think it's that one. I think that's a, that is a life changing relationship thing. You know, I think with yourself, if you can do that. But again, yeah, I, I mean, I, I had no language for this until I was, after a few years ago. Yeah. Until a couple of years ago. So I'm still. Why my reluctance also to speak too much on it is because I'm so early in it, you know.

Wow, man, this is beautiful. I'm so happy you're talking about this, though. And don't feel, and you know, don't feel like you need to open up about things here or anywhere until you feel you've processed things enough. And you may never need to do that publicly either. It's just.

I appreciate it.

Yeah. Yeah. It's not a, it's not a pressure here for that in any way, but it sounds like you are in a journey of creating a healthy relationship with self. That's what I'm hearing you say.

Yeah, I think, I think so. I think so. I'm also, I'm realizing that it's, it's also imperative for the work I want to make. And it's also, it's like, it's a, it's like to not do it. I think whatever. When you start on, on that, by the time you're ready to sort of do your own little work on yourself, you're ready to realize that not doing this isn't an option, you know, or not, you know, or it's an option, but you've done that. You know what I mean? Or for what. What's ahead of you and what it is that you want for your life and you feel the. The experience of living that you would like to get to. It's like you realize, okay, I just kind of have to do this.

What do you think, Andrew, is available for you emotionally, internally, and externally in the world? As you continue to navigate this healing journey for yourself, what do you feel like is available for you or your mission?

I think this is maybe just necessary for the work as well, too, for being creative. I just want to walk in step with myself in a way that feels aligned with myself and aligned with the work and I guess to feel at peace in. In whatever the work is that needs to be made.

Have you ever been out of alignment with yourself in this last decade with anything you've created or opportunities you've said yes to, where you felt afterwards? That's not really what I wanted to do or. But I did it for ego or because whatever reason it happens.

I won't give examples. It happens. Or you catch yourself. You catch yourself in a thought of like, yeah, there's always this sort of one more stone to turn. You know, it's like I always approached things with like, leave no stone unturned. It's like, you know, just do everything. Yeah.

And every opportunity.

Yeah, A little bit. Yeah.

Or that can be draining and exhausting.

Can be draining. Yeah. And learning to say no to stuff is something that I'm still cultivating a relationship with.

Yeah.

Or a habit of, I think. Yeah. Or I'm. I'm a real. And I think this is an. I'm proud of this trade in myself. But that extra hour that I'll put in or that extra 30 minutes or that extra hour, I can. I can focus, hyper focus on something in those last few, you know, but. But what happens is sometimes I'll agree to. To do something I'll be fully in my mind of, like, I do want to do this. It's like, will you do a little bit extra here and add more rather than take this break, Will I use this time to work? And it's like, yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that. And then in afterwards, I realized, okay, why am I. Why am I feeling exhausted? You know, when I burnt down and now I can't function, you know, I can't work as I want to work, you know, So I. I do want to. I do want to address, you know, hopefully get better at that.

This, I'm. This has been a powerful section, so I'm grateful we're talking about this. But I have a question about a couple of the things around here. Performance experience I feel like I hope they get to come watch you perform live sometime because I feel like it's a spiritual experience for the audience to watch what you do. I'm curious for you, what has been the most spiritual experience you've had while performing on stage where you felt like something is different? Here I'm feeling something different. There's an energy that is elevated at a different level than I've ever been to. Or maybe I'm seeing myself from a different place or I'm forgetting the words, but I'm singing the word. Like, was there ever a spiritual experience for you that was so big and awe inspiring while performing? Are you ready to finally hit your target Nutrient levels every day Meet Groons the daily snack pack of gummies isn't just a multivitamin. It's not just a green gummy, and it's not just a prebiotic. It's all of that rolled into one and then some at a fraction of the price. And they taste great. Here's what makes them stand out. While most multivitamins only cover 7 to 9 vitamins, GR bring together over 20 vitamins and minerals, plus more than 60 nutrient dense whole food ingredients. And those ingredients are known to support things like gut, health, energy, immunity, recovery, cognition, and even beauty. Because it's in gummy form, your body has an easier time absorbing it. Also, we have packs in our studio and they've been a game changer for everyone in the studio. We've run out so quickly. No powders, no handfuls of pills, just a pack of tasty gummies and I'm fueling my body with the nutrients it needs. Use Code greatness at Groons Co to save up to 52% off your first order. That's code greatness at Gruns Co for up to 52% off. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, the holidays can feel a lot like balancing family expectations, travel, work, and trying to make everything perfect. It's easy to forget to take care of yourself in the middle of it all. I've been there and what I've learned is that when you don't make space to slow down, it's hard to actually enjoy the moments that matter Most. That's why BetterHelp is encouraging you to rewrite your traditions this season by making time for you. Incorporating therapy into your routine can help you pause, reflect, stay grounded during what can be joyful but sometimes hectic or even lonely. Time of the Year, the holidays look different for everyone. Maybe it's baking your great aunt's sweet potato pie, or maybe it's starting something new, like a quiet night with friends. Therapy can be one of those new traditions, too. Better Help matches you with a licensed therapist based on your goals and preferences. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch anytime. This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10% off@betterhelp.com Louis that's better. H E L P.com Louis for me.

There'S definitely moving, moving experiences. I was going to joke that I think the spiritual experiences for to be in the crowd. I've been in shows and I've been in such elation. I've been so ecstatic and kind of lifted by being in crowd energy, all enjoying the same thing. And maybe I was going to make a joke. It's like the preacher is the least spiritual of all people. The person at the top. It's everyone else is engaging in the spiritual experiences. Preachers. I'm just kidding. But I think when I'm on stage, there's a kind of a flow state, you know, that you hope to come into. And that's another thing where it's like calming my mind. And this is all connected. It's all connected with mental health. It's all connected with, like, wellness, but then also like mindfulness as well, too. And mindfulness was a big change for me. It was realizing how many conversations were going on, how unpresent my mind was. You know, even sometimes when I was on stage and wanting to just, yeah, it can happen, it can happen. And realizing I, you know, remaining grounded on stage, remaining present on stage. So you're not so, so meditating before shows, I find really, really helpful.

How would you get distracted on stage.

Before it can happen? Where Again, if I'm releasing music, there's a lot of emails that I haven't unanswered. I swear to God.

Right before you're like, oh, thinking about it.

Or yeah, but you could be on stage in the middle of a song, playing a chord and singing lyrics. And in your mind, I'm not present in that. I'm thinking it's happened where I'm like, I didn't email back. Come on. Really? Yeah, yeah.

Holy cow.

Yeah. Oh, no. You're doing laundry lists in your head while you're in the middle of, like, singing a song and the crowd are doing their thing. And how's that even possible?

How do you stay? I mean, how can you create A performance while thinking about the email you gotta send to Larry.

Yeah.

And management or something.

It's. It's not great. It's like. And I don't. I think that. I think the show, potentially my worry is that the show. I think because it's muscle memory that you just can do it, but it's, it's. It doesn't. You don't feel great about the, about the show, you know, because you weren't present, you know, so it's been a while now since I would. There's also. That's kind of before, that's when my mind was totally just like haywire. So mindfulness, you know, meditation and stuff and super helpful.

That helps you keep. Keep you present now. On stage.

On stage. Yeah. So as for spiritual experience, definitely. I mean, I was in Mexico recently. We just did a show in Mexico.

Where. Which city?

Mexico City, so.

Oh, man. I've been going back. My fiance's Mexican, so I've been going back and forth a lot. Yeah.

Yes. Congratulations. Thanks, man. Thanks. It's. I mean it's. Mexico's beautiful.

I love it, man. Mexico City is incredible, right?

Yes. Yeah, it's beautiful and the people are just so wonderful, you know, And I have never, you know, no disrespect to any other audience, but I like there is something special about a Mexican audience like that. Now we've tour. I've never toured South America. Hear that. Central and South America are incredible audiences, you know.

But we have a, we have a YouTube channel in Spanish.

Yes.

With over a million subscribers in Spanish. That. This will be dubbed in Spanish as well.

Oh, really?

And Portuguese.

Oh, wow.

So the Spanish channel. Watching or listening right now, I'm sure they're like all typing in the chat. This is incredible. You know, they're going to love you saying like, Mexico's amazing.

I'm delighted. And it's absolutely true. And yeah. I think I said it on. There's something special. There's a, like there is a passion, there is a. There is a. An energy. There is. And. But to be in a city or a country that is not primarily English speaking and to hear your words, to be so far from home and hear your words sang back to you. My first gig in Mexico City was a very, very same. In that songs were being sang to me louder than had ever been sang in other primarily English speaking territories.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. And I was stunned by it. I was absolutely stunned.

And it's not their first language and.

Yeah. Yeah. And so when I, When I. My first gig In Mexico. I was like, this is nuts. This is. I never heard a crowd singing this song. I can't remember which song it was, but songs that just crowds. Some songs, crowds will sing it to some they're not, you know, some not so much. I was staggered by it. And then. So this time around, it was just a few days ago, like last week.

Oh, man, I should have thought. I know. And I would have gone to it.

Oh, my God. Not at all. But performing a song called Cherry Wine. And the crowd had like, done something really sweet. They'd handed out these red pieces of paper to put in front of their phone lights. So songs called Cherry Wine. So they had all these kind of cherry red kind of cards that they lit the auditorium with and with their phones and. And just. They were just singing the song back, like, louder than really I'd ever heard it. And I just had one of those moments where I was absolutely present and I. I sort of at the same time was just like, this is nuts. Like, I wrote this song. I think I brought myself back to. I was maybe 22 when I wrote that song. And. Wow. And I just kind of reminding myself. It's like I wrote this once and I played it like, to, you know, a little barn door. I remember the first time playing this live, like. Like I just was brought back to, you know, I was present in two moments of like, of the beginning of that song and writing it first and performing it first and just now. And. And. And I was just. I was really moved by it. I kind of had to. You know, I was. I was quite touched by that support and that love. And so, yeah, there's moments where. I don't know if I'd call it spiritual necessarily, but just overwhelmingly fulfilling, you know, overwhelmingly good feeling beautiful. That's.

That seems like a spiritual experience for me. Man. You almost like leaped in time. 14 years, I guess, thinking about when you were writing this in your parents attic or wherever you were at the time, playing it at a pub for 17 people.

Yeah.

And now people screaming it across the world back at you.

Yeah, I. I was grateful also after the fact that I still. I still could be that. That. That feeling was so fresh for me, you know, that. And then I was. I could allow myself into going, you know what? This is really sweet. And I really enjoying this.

And how do you keep it fresh when you're, you know, doing 100, 200 tour nights a year, singing the same songs over and over for over a decade? How do you stay present when it's not New for you, even though it might be new for someone else.

Yeah. I think the. The challenge is staying present. And honestly, if you can stay present, this is. It's like the same where your morning. All of us have to get up out of bed. All of us probably get up. We'll brush our teeth, we'll make coffee, we'll. Whatever, get in the car and go to work, whatever. You know what I mean? Or, like, go about our day. You know, I don't. I don't commute necessarily, but, like, we all have that little. You know, we all have that thing where it's like those parts of the day which are so commonplace to us that we do them in auto. In auto mode. You know, if you can. If you can steer the brain into presence. And your experience of that drive to work, wherever your appointment, your errands, is gonna be, like, so much more engaging. It's going to be an experience in and of itself. You'll actually experience the world around you. This is so easy. It's so much easier said than done, you know, when you're talking about mindfulness. But I think on stage, if I can be present in a song, doesn't matter if I. And I'm truly present in that moment and I'm letting you. The energy kind of off the crowd, kind of come through to me and through me, and the energy of the song, whatever. If I'm kind of allowing a flow of that and I'm present in it, it doesn't really matter if I've sang that, you know, a hundred times or a thousand times or whatever, five times. It's like I'm just present in it. And I think that's. It's a challenge.

Wow. We had Rick Rubin on recently, who is a big producer.

He's. Rick Rubin. Yeah.

Wrote a big book on creativity.

And I listened to the episode as well.

It's inspiring.

I mean, Rick Rubin, have you met him? I have never met Rick Rubin.

He's inspiring, man. What a force.

Yeah.

He was mentioning something about, you know, an artist should really be thinking about writing art for themselves as if it was their own diary, their own journal, and not writing art or making art for an audience, but making it for themselves and being willing to reveal it to the audience without the insecurity or concern of their own intimate thoughts and feelings around their piece of art, which. Which is probably one of the hardest things to do, is like, putting out your soul that you're really making for you, but wanting others to experience it without being worried about criticism. How do you navigate putting art out there and being like, oh, I hope people like this and they don't give me negative feedback versus people are going to like it or hate it or whatever. They're going to respond to it. How do you navigate you feeling good about it, no matter what happens to it in the world?

I will say before releasing, it's not so much a fear, but there's this sort of. There's this. Maybe I don't experience actually where the fear is coming from, but there's a terrible unease. And I think usually before releasing an album, there's this awful purge of like, cortisol that happens. And like, you know, I've talked to a lot of artists about this where, like, you're in tears before the. Before it happens and you're exhausted and the catharsis that you'd hoped you would get from it never arrives, you know, so there is that. I think there has to be. Maybe there's just. There is some resource that you pull from that brings you to a place where you are in absolute commitment to the fact that the work needs to exist, you know, that it is. It doesn't matter what. Anybody has to say something. The song wants to be written. The song has in some ways, and I sometimes think of it like this. When an idea comes through, the song is asking to be written. It feels ready to be. To be worked on. And to deny it, that is kind of going against your nature, which, you know, you kind of have to do what you have decided you're here to do. So there's something that is willing to be made. It's willing itself to be made through you. And it's like you either do it or don't.

Right.

But don't. Sorry, excuse me. Don't get annoyed when somebody else has the idea because there's a lot of parallel thinking in the world as well, too.

And somebody else is going to put something similar out.

Exactly. Yeah. That actually happened. I mean, artists talk about this. I've certainly experienced it. You have an idea for a song and six months later you hear it on the radio. And somebody else's. Somebody else's has played with the themes that you were thinking of. And it's. We're all living in the same, similar societies or, you know, so it's a lot of parallel thinking comes in because we're all very similar stimuluses, whatever it is. But you have to. There has to. I don't know. There is a. There's a resource that you pull from that that is Just, you know, this needs to be made.

And like, what was it like, you know, when you came out with your first song that was a mega hit? What was the feeling before that launched versus, you know, the most recent unreal on Earth? You know, is the feeling still the same, you know, 12 years later? Is there a different feeling at this season of life as an artist? You know, before you launched the recent.

Album and the feeling on the first song, I was so, like, I was such an unknown that I just was watching its. Its uptake. Slowly but surely there was these moments where, okay, it was reaching another audience. So it's like, oh, my God. It's like that's a video. It's been seen by 10, 000 people. Oh my God. That was a huge deal for me at the time. I think it was like, it, it got. It was like on the first page of Reddit or something, which at the time was like, you know, huge. It was huge. You know, and then it was. Then it was starting to be played. I think some of the earliest. I think the first. One of the first radio stations that played it in the States was like Alabama Mountain Radio. And like it was being Shazammed and we were watching, like somebody was telling me, oh, yeah, it's just been Shazammed in like parts of the world, parts of the States. That I'd never been to the States. I never thought that it would. I would be where the music would be heard. At this point, people in Ireland didn't know that I was an Irish artist, you know.

Really?

Yeah, honestly, they. I think the song had started to be played on Irish radio, but they, they assumed that I was like an American import, you know, that I wasn't. They didn't know that I was from Ireland because I, I hadn't been releasing music all that long. And then there was this kind of. This kind of dark sort of gospel rock sound, you know, in that song. This kind of swampy sort of vibe and. Yeah, so. So it's different. You know, I think that you. There's. There's. Sometimes you miss being the underdog a little bit. You know, there's some. There's a lot to be said for.

Having some to that feeling. Right?

Yeah. Having nothing to lose.

The naive like, oh, this is really exciting. It just.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And feeling like every, Every inch you gain is a. Is a. Is a huge deal and is a big win and you've nothing to lose and you, you have. You can prove everything, but also if nothing happens, it's like it's okay, you know, go away. Come back when you're. When you're ready. You know what I mean? But it's so. It's trying to maintain that maybe there's. There's something to be. You can still maintain that sort of mindset. A little bit of like. Of. I think when you. And this is also maybe something that you can. It's good to practice or to investigate or think about is when the stakes seem higher or you've, like, on your second or third release, you feel like if it doesn't do something for you, that it's somehow, you know, it could be a success by the metrics of what you would think beforehand or anyone else's. But we had you create this idea of like, I don't know, you just. You want more from it or, you know, so that's.

How do you navigate that? Like when you launch, you know, an album and it doesn't do the numbers in your mind, like, well, I hope it does this many downloads are strange in the first month or year.

Yeah.

If it doesn't do that or if it does do that, how do you navigate that expectation?

I think it's always just about. I try to just bring myself right back to. Because you do. And you look, you work with. You partner up with business, like labels and stuff like that. And they wanted to win, you know. Yeah. And they're competitive by nature. And it's great that you have a team that thinks like that, that wants to bring your work to a large audience. And there's a lot of different ways that different artists will think about this. Independent artists, maybe, you know. And what I have settled on is that if I believe in the work, I want to give it every chance that it can. It can reach as many years as possible and let those years decide. And I just try to bring it back to the work. Do I believe in it? If I believe in it, and I love it enough that I feel it's. It's worth releasing, it's worth being out in the world. I'm at peace with it whether somebody listens to it or doesn't. I'm at peace with it if nobody listens to it. There's some songs I'm quite proud of such that if they were. If they weren't heard by a hundred people, I. I would say that song is still of the quality that I wanted it to be on. The quality of the work doesn't change whether it's listened to. Listened by a million people or a billion, billion times. Or it's listened by a thousand thousand people or 100 people or 10 people. The quality of the work doesn't change. So I just try to bring it down to am I happy with. With its quality?

That's beautiful. I think that's a good lesson for any artist or author or anyone. It's like, are you happy with the quality? Yes. If you have a career or business around it, sure, you want to figure out a way to make money and survive, but I think you have to be proud of the quality of work. No matter if it sells millions of copies or one copy.

Totally, totally. Does it represent you?

That's beautiful. Yeah, man. Andrew, there's a lot I would love to talk more about with you. We'll have to have you back on another time, but I want people to check out your. Your new album, Unreal on Earth. I want them to. To come to watch you live on tour, man. Which I'm going to do one of these days.

Please do.

They can. They can go to hozier.com for your tour dates and everything like that is right?

Yes, yeah, tour dates. Unfortunately, not many shows left.

They can get notified when you do do more.

Exactly, exactly.

But they can listen to music. You're on YouTube, Instagram, social media, everywhere. Hozier, everywhere. How else can we be of service to you and support you today?

Oh, my goodness. I think you've been of great. You've given me a huge amount to think about and offered. Offered wonderful space for reflection, but not at all, no. Like you've just been. Been your wonderful self.

Thanks, man.

Thank you for. Yeah, thank you for inviting me in. Of course. Leading always with a very, very open heart.

Of course, man. We're doing it together, man. I've got two final questions for you, but I want people to go to your website where. Where's the best place to listen to your music? Is it Spotify is on your website? Is it m. Where do you recommend people listen?

I mean, they can. You can listen on Spotify, you listen on Tidal and you know, where's your preferred place?

Does it matter?

I mean, it's. I mean, the sound quality on Tidal is better. I'm sorry, Spotify, look, it just is. And you know, like, vinyl is obviously going to be the. The best. I mean, listen, honestly, I don't really mind. I think anywhere that people want to listen to it if they enjoy it, if they're vibing with it anyway.

Yeah, yeah. Share with your friends, Listen to. Share with your kids. Before I ask these final two questions, Andrew, I want to acknowledge you because I know it's hard for you to receive compliments, but I want to acknowledge you for the journey you're on. I think. I think artists have a big opportunity to inspire an impact, but I also think there's a lot of pressure for artists to be the perfect role model and say all the perfect things all the time, especially at younger ages. So I want to acknowledge you for your journey of being true to yourself and sharing your art with the world, having the courage to make art and put it out there, even if it's nervous for you, even if you get scared before you go on stage and you keep showing up for the little Andrew in you, the current Andrew in you, and for the audiences that love the art that you've created for yourself. So I want to acknowledge you for your journey and being willing to reflect and look within over these last few years for yourself and allowing yourself to heal or navigate whatever emotions you're feeling. So hopefully you can continue to serve in a bigger way to humanity and yourself and your friends for many years to come. So I acknowledge you for all of it, Andrew, and just really, really great to meet you and pleasure to have you on.

You too. You too, of course.

Okay, two final questions. This is called the Three Truths. It's a hypothetical scenario. Imagine you get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on earth.

Live as long as I want, but it's the last day on earth.

So you're 100, you're 200, however you want to be. Okay, we're going into the future and you get to create all your dreams. They all come true. You make the art you have, the family, the lifestyle, whatever it is you want to have, you create it. But for whatever reason, on this final day of life, you have to take all of your work with you. So all of your music, we don't have access to it anymore. This conversation, gone hypothetical. Anything you create, for whatever reason, you got to take it with you to the next place when you pass on. Hypothetical scenario. But you get to leave behind on this final day, three lessons, three things you know to be true, you feel is true for you, that you would leave with the world. And this is all we have to remember you by your content, if you could. Like you went back in time when you were on stage thinking of that song that you wrote 10, 12 years prior, and you felt that time playing it in the pub for the first time on stage 12 years later, when everyone's screaming it back to you, if you can jump forward 70, 80, 100 years to the final day and think about all the lessons you'll have learned. What would be those three lessons or truths for you want to finish with an easy question?

So easy. Oh my God. I was like three lessons or three truths. I would say one is, is to. And this is difficult for a lot of people I think in, in the kind of hyper real spaces or the, or the like spaces like social media and stuff like that, you know, is. Is remembering that each human being that you are witnessing their lived experience is as. Is as is as authentic and as deep and as real as your own. You know, that they're suffering and their internal narrative, whatever, whether they've done their healing or they haven't done their healing yet, that they are. They're experiencing a lived experience that is as deep at times as dark and as frightening as your own. You know. And the reality of that. Yeah, just to remind yourself of the reality of that, I would like to say that at the same time, and this is something I kind of borrow from this Seamus Heaney's Nobel when he won the Nobel Prize in his speech. It's a beautiful lecture. It's called Crediting Poetry. And he references a mass. He was from Northern Ireland. And in this he's referencing a massacre that took took place. But. And he talks about a poem and how what the poem knows essentially like so what in the same way that the poem can credit it bears witness to in this one instance it can bear witness to bear witness bears witness to and knows a massacre is going to happen in its telling of this story. It also must and can at the same time bear witness to and credit the gentleness in this instance of, of the comforting of one person, the squeeze of a hand. And in this instance I encourage anybody to read is crediting poetry poetry lecture. And this I will not abandon you squeeze of the hand that happens between these two co workers just before the massacre takes place. And so he describes this beautifully is at the same time that the work can credit and we often do we credit and we bear witness to and we represent and we tell the story of the horror and the hatred and the massacre. At the same time we can and maybe it's imperative that we credit that there is the squeeze of the hand, there is the tear that is. That comes from a place of love and comes from a place of compassion and empathy. So it's, it's, it's, you know, I would say the actuality of love, the actuality of solidarity, not in Any sort of wishy washy, sort of airy fairy type thing is that there is, there is. We, we. We don't question the actuality of violence, we don't question the actuality of hatred, but we don't really take seriously the actuality of solidarity that we, we think of it in the sort of lofty political terms. But it's like the love that you have for your neighbor or your, or your spouse or your child or your best friend that's showing up for people that I won't abandon you in this, you know, so it's. And in the same way that a work can credit one, it can and must credit the other. And so that's a beautiful thought that I would say that there's a truth in that we're in a limited space, you know, we're on a limited rock here. You know, I think, I think, I often think that the ways that we go about. And look, we deal in business, we work with different people in business and there is in this moment a kind of a perpetual. And look, I don't want to get too political, but we sometimes think in terms of this sort of secular trance of the perpetual growth model. We're on a limited space here. There is a commons that we all share in the world that it is. And I think, I just think it's, it's a. There is a huge amount still of investigation and really like investment into the thinking of, of viewing the world as a, as a commons, as a shared space that we just have to have to. That we can't just extract from that. We'll have to arrive at some point to some sustainability practice, be that sustainable economics, sustainable resource management, etc. That's something that really. And again, it's in the abstract, increasingly not in the abstract, but I get so sad at the idea of for what humanity is and how far the chance of this earth becoming what it's become like us as human beings, us evolving into this to have awareness, to have meaning, to have a sense of. And the fact that we could actually be at risk of potentially to the point where we consume ourselves or into some sort of. Into some dark age or into an extinction event. It's like really very sad.

Over consumption of everything.

Yeah, it just makes me very sad that we could lose the progress of society as we know it. So, yeah, I think that was one other thing. I probably had something far more nice.

It's all good.

More to say than that, but yeah, that's all good.

It's beautiful, man. Andrew Final question for you. What is your definition of greatness?

I think again, it's a tricky one for me. It is a commitment to one's mode of being. That is, it's a mode of being and it's a commitment to an alignment of the heart and the mind and the spirit in either the work that you make in the way that you deal with people, in the way that you engage with your community and be, you know, and I think it's, it's one that is. To me there's, I have no sheer definition, but it's one with, that is marked with a, a mode of grace and good faith. You know, but if you. Look, it's not always easy, but I think if you can bring that to the work that you're making or the engagements that you have in the day to day. Good faith and good grace with people around you. Yeah. And in some form of alignment with, with your, your heart, mind and body. Great. I think that that is if you can maintain that mode of being. I think, I think. Well, I think we all know people who manage to do that and there's people in our lives that we, that we witness sometimes and we're like, wow, you know what? That's a really great person. And it may not be that they're, that they're, that they are, you know, on the way to some sort of what we imagine to be success or something like that or some sort of like global or international sense of, you know, it's not that they're achieving some outrageous monetary or financial success or. But, but there, there is in their being something that we just, we can't help but admire and that they are either in their community or in their family, to their friends in their place of work, that there is something undeniably great about that person. And I think those to me are some of the markers of it.

There you go. My man. Andrew, thanks for being here much.

Really appreciate it.

Powerful man. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links and if you want weekly except exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening. Then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you let lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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