Jay Shetty on Love & Money: Make Relationships Work When One Earns More | (Awkward Therapy Session)
5 Feb 2024 · 86 min
In this episode of "Awkward Therapy," host Lewis Howes and guest Jay Shetty explore the complex intersection of love and money, dissecting cultural expectations, gender roles, and personal experiences that shape how couples navigate finances. The conversation opens with a nostalgic look at dating norms—who pays for the first date, who asks someone out—and how those expectations have shifted over the past two decades. Both hosts share personal anecdotes about paying for dates, split‑bill dynamics, and the influence of family upbringing on their own views of provision. They discuss the concept of "conscious love," emphasizing that many people lack a safe internal foundation to receive love, often seeking safety through financial security. The dialogue moves into deeper territory: the pressures of high‑value expectations (e.g., six‑foot, six‑figure partners), the hidden emotional cost of unmet expectations, and the importance of aligning values rather than merely financial contributions. Jay and Lewis argue that relationships thrive when each partner knows their role, communicates expectations, and creates explicit agreements—whether about rent, shared expenses, joint accounts, or prenups. They introduce a practical framework of four regular relationship check‑ins (daily highlight, weekly upcoming tasks, quarterly direction, annual goals) to keep communication alive and prevent surprise break‑downs. Throughout, they stress that love alone cannot compensate for mismatched expectations or lack of safety, and that transparent conversations about money, roles, and future plans are essential for long‑term harmony. The episode concludes with a call to normalize uncomfortable conversations, consider conscious uncoupling, and continue exploring gender‑role‑free relationship dynamics in future episodes.
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Because people haven't experienced love, they don't know how to notice and receive it when it arrives knocking on their doorstep.
Conscious love.
Conscious love, like because you've never received love without guilt or love without shame or conditioning.
Yeah. Or needing to achieve or do something, right?
Yeah, and then now when you get it, when someone gives it to you, it goes over your head and you get scared by it.
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So here we are at another episode of Awkward Therapy. You guys loved it, and me and Lewis love doing this together. We both come from different backgrounds, different walks of life, and we love to find topics that there's healthy debate over. There's a bit of controversy, maybe there's a bit of conflict. I love the feedback we got from the last one we did on polyamory and monogamy. If you've not heard that one, check it out. And we're back to do Awkward Therapy, and we decided to call this Awkward Therapy because sometimes we feel awkward doing.
It, and we're both not therapists. -Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're two human beings with mistakes and.
History, sharing practical wisdom. -Yeah, and figuring things out together. I think when I sit down with you, the reason why we started this.
Is these are the conversations we have anyway. Behind the scenes. -Yes. When people aren't, you know, watching us, we were like, oh, man, people would probably be fascinated with this. And I think we've done, what, four episodes now? And each one, people are just like, this is fascinating. More people need to talk about these things. Absolutely.
And I feel that these are the conversations that people are having, but then we're scared of having them publicly or we're scared to say, this is what I feel, this is what I think, because it kind of makes everyone awkward and uncomfortable.
It is. Yeah.
And so that's why it's awkward therapy.
And you might get pushed back on some of your opinions and things like that. So, you know, this is a fun time.
I get excited every time. Yeah, me and Lewis last year pretty much managed to play pickleball together. We got into a really good run. And so what we do is we play pickleball, we eat, and then we have these conversations.
So it's amazing time.
Yeah, it's a good time. All right, so let's dive in. So today's topic is love and money.
I'm excited, man.
There are so many things to dive into. We're going to talk about everything from who should pay on the first date, through to should you sign a prenup?
Should you- Shared expenses, living together, all that stuff.
All of it. Where do we start? Who should pay on the first date?
Man. Well, I mean, you think in the past when I was growing up, I mean, when I was like, I'm 40 now. And so 20, I guess 20 years ago when I started dating, I didn't really have any money, but the girl didn't have any money either. But it was always thought like, okay, you have to take her out and you have to pay for it. That was the thought 20 years ago for me, right? It was like what my sisters told me, like make sure you're a gentleman, make sure you show up, make sure you offer to pay for the hamburger or whatever you're going. That's a 21 year old or something. Where were you going, McDonald's? I was living in St. Louis at the time and there was a place called Steak and Shake. It's amazing. So like a burger and a milkshake. The original Shake Shack. Exactly. Yeah. and so that was the belief. But the more in the last like five, six years, I feel like that's shifted some from what I've seen, at least on the internet culture, content on the internet where you see people saying. Now, I don't know if this is the same for everything in like middle America or around the world, but you see the extreme stuff online. And I see some women saying like, the man should always pay on the first date. And then I see other people saying, no, it should be 50/50. And I see others saying, you know, well, if you're just gonna be friends, then people pay separately, right? So I think today that this is a tricky one. This is where it gets awkward. This is where it gets awkward. I'm already like, oh man, what are people gonna think and say? But if I'm answering this, that I would like to pay always on the first date if I was dating, obviously I'm engaged now, but I would always pay and that's just coming from a place of, Now, also, I would only do it if I was choosing the place and I knew how much I was gonna spend beforehand. So if some girl was like, oh, I want you to take me to this really expensive place and pay for a $300 dinner, I'd be like, this is already a red flag. You know, maybe this is not the right thing. But if someone offers, then I feel like, oh, this person has a thoughtfulness, is genuine, is caring. It's not a me versus them. they need to do something and I'm above this mentality. And so I think you want to be aware of that. And when a woman is willing to offer, I think that's really generous and it shows you who they are. And if a man doesn't want to pay, it just gives you information and shows you who they are. And if that's the type of relationship you want to enter, there's nothing right or wrong with it. It's just knowing where you're at. And so it's getting clear on what you want. I think what's changed for men and women is women have changed, I think, from what I've heard, or what they want differently from what men want as well. And so it's just getting clear on what type of relationship do you want to enter while you're dating. And it's not necessarily a red flag in my mind. It's more of just information. Okay, is this the type of dynamic you want for a dating relationship? Because it's probably going to lead into a longer term relationship the same style of dynamic. It's probably not gonna shift later. Unless you have those conversations. I don't know. What do you think?
It's been what?
10 years now?
Yeah, yeah, but we've been together for 10 years, married for 10 years. But no, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking about it, and there's a lot of stuff that came up for me. The first thing that came up is, I've heard a lot of people say, and this is kind of what you were saying, I've heard a lot of people say that it's who asks the person out that should pay.
Who should ask the person out?
That's another question. But it's that idea. It makes sense. If you ask someone out.
Yeah, it's like what you said.
You were like, if I ask someone out and I get to choose the place, then I'm going to offer to pay because I chose the place. Whereas if someone told you to choose the place or if someone else chose the place and then wanted you to pay for it without you giving them that permission. But I think my take is, and by the way, I was the same as you. I remember as a student going to like Nando's and Pizza Express, which are very British. you know, spots. And you're just thinking, like, how am I gonna pay? Because at that time, like, to eat together was about 30 pounds.
How am I gonna get this money?
Yeah, that's a lot as a student. You're thinking, how am I gonna pay for this? And I remember I was to being a tutor on the side. I was, you know, I was working while I was at University as well. And so that was helping me pay for dates. But I look back and think about how much money I wasted on dates. It was crazy. But there's one. I I'm with you. I think that I, again, like you, have always opted to pay on dates, and I think I would always choose to do that. But by the way, I just want to add one thing. This is also not just about gender because you do that with me and I do that with you. So even when we're out on bro dates, you'll always offer to pay and I'll always offer to pay. And then we usually say, all right, if you get this one, I'll get the next one. And I think that's just who we are as people. I don't think that's because I'm trying to impress a woman or I was trying to-- I think that's just how I was raised.
And that doesn't come-- If we were 20 though, maybe we'd be like, let's split this. Yeah, yeah. Or I would pay for my stuff, 'cause I order more than you and get a lot more food, and you'd probably pay for your stuff. You know, it's like we'd probably be at a counter, we'd each pay separately type of thing. So it also depends on how much.
Money you have and what season of life you're in, I think, as well.
Yeah.
There's one quote that-- I don't know if this quote is still relevant today, but I'm interested to hear what we think about it. I heard this quote that says, A woman's loyalty is tested when the man has nothing, and a man's loyalty is tested when he has everything. That's true. I love that quote. Yeah.
I think you saw that, you see this with like Obama, the Obamas, right?
I think it's either Obama, and then I've seen it in like, people put it with UFC of Conor McGregor. His story was kind of like that. Yeah, he had nothing. Yeah, he had nothing when he started out. Yeah, exactly. And I don't know whether the genders.
Apply, but I think it's a fascinating thing. I think it's a powerful thing. And I think, well, you see a lot of this conversation around, like, I don't know, I don't know why this is popping up, this kind of high value man, high value woman conversation.
Let's talk about that, yeah.
You see these different conversations online of women saying, well, I need a man that makes 100 grand, and I need a man that's, I don't know, six feet tall or above. And I need a man- you-'re winning, man.
Louis, you're the man.
And I need a man that's this age, and I need a man that can take all the time off in the world and can travel and pay for five trips a year. to go. And it's like, there's not that many people that actually have that lifestyle and can live up to that every day for the rest of their life. It's a big expectation to think that. So I think you gotta understand where you're meeting someone at, at your season of life. And also, as you know, a relationship is about how much you give, not how much you expect someone else to give you to make you happy constantly. But how much are you to consistently show up and serve the relationship consistently. And if you just say, well, me being here is enough value, me being around is a lot and they should just be happy. I just think that's not the best mindset to approach a healthy, conscious, long term relationship. And so we got to start thinking about not what can someone give me, but how can I contribute to the relationship? And how can I meet someone with shared values Yeah. That thinks the same way. And maybe if they're 24, 25, they don't have as much to give financially, but they can give emotionally, spiritually. They can give me their time. They can show up and be creative with dates and we have shared values. So we give each other that. We give each other less stress, less conflict. Like that's an amazing gift to give less stress by having- oh my God, yeah. 'Cause it's like, why be with someone who can pay for everything if all they create is stress and drama? Is that the relationship of your dreams? So we just have to be thinking about what we want. And for many years, I didn't think that way. I thought about who's gonna give me the most pleasure, the most fun, who's gonna have the best, who am I gonna sexually connect with the best? And I didn't think about the other things of peace, harmony, shared values, who's gonna be kind to me and my family, and do we have a similar vision? So I think we have to think about those things when we're entering a relationship.
Yeah, definitely. And I love the conversation you brought about to like this high value man, high value woman. I think if I'm completely honest, I think there's obviously always historically been so much pressure on women and how they approach relationships. And I think there's now a lot of that pressure on men of, I'm not six feet tall, I don't make 100K.
I don't drive a Lambo.
I don't drive a Lambo. Like, I don't have these things. And let's be honest, it's not the majority of women that are saying they want those things. Like, it's, this is not like a big request. Like, I'm looking over at Helena going, like, Helena, are those things on your list? Maybe they are.
Millionaire, six feet. Yeah. Yeah.
Like, multiple six-figure income, six feet tall, drives a Lambo. Like, right? Like, those aren't. So I also think that, like you said, the internet make certain things viral because people are having debates around them. And then a lot of men start looking at that as reality and start going, well, I can't live up to that. So either I'm gonna pretend that I have those things and I'm gonna find ways to do that. Or I'm gonna get so busy trying to do things I hate and become someone I don't want to be in order to get some money just to be able to attract a woman like that.
Yeah, to impress someone.
Yeah, to impress someone.
And impressing people with the wrong things.
Yes.
When we impress people with the wrong things, it usually turns out painful in the end.
Yeah.
When we impress people with who we truly are.
Yeah.
You know, our heart, our mindset, our generosity, the way we think, the way we connect, the way we're present with people, that's when we create more beauty in relationships.
Absolutely. I remember I had I had someone that I was talking to and they were saying to me, they were like, you know what, I'm with this girl and she's just into designer clothes and designer bags and like she just, you know, wants me to get her stuff and, you know, and I'm looking at him and it's really funny 'cause he's dripping in Louis Vuitton. He's got the Louis Vuitton logo like tattooed all over his body, like on every item. And it was remarkable to me, like how we lose that sense of self-awareness. I have a rule in my book, A Rules of Love, that says, you attract what you use to impress. And so if you use your bling or your, you know, your whatever, whatever you're wearing to impress someone, that's what you're attracting. You're attracting someone who is with you for that thing.
Who desires that thing.
Who desires that thing. So if you're using your character and if you're using your qualities and if you're using your values, then that's what someone's gonna be attracted to, and that's hard.
It's really hard, especially in a world of social media and people building personal brands and starting side hustles and businesses, sometimes they to use things to build an audience. But that may not be the right thing to build a relationship. And so we've got to be careful about what we're putting out there. You know, whether it be one to one or in a community space in person or online, we've got to be really careful what we put out there, because you will be perceived as that thing. And it's one of the reasons why I think we connect so well, because we're always trying to put out positivity. We're always trying to put out content of others. We're always trying to Elevate voices, information, research to help people improve. So we attract people in our lives that want to work with us that are also into that mindset. We attract healthy relationships, friendships of people that think the same way.
So that's such a great point, because when I moved to LA, and I remember you already lived here, and you were part of the reason I remember you saying to me, Jay, you moved to LA, and that was such a big that made it easier as well. I didn't know a lot of people when I moved here. And one of the biggest things I always heard is everyone in LA is superficial, everyone in LA is really fake, everyone in LA is really this. And I haven't had that experience of LA. I'm not saying that doesn't exist. I'm saying that exists everywhere. But my experience has been, because I'm almost a walking billboard of what I care about, whether it's online or offline, I tend to find friendships that are only coming close to me for those things. And that's spot on. And so I feel like whether it's where you live or where you travel or whatever it is, you've got to think about like, what is the billboard of my values?
Yes.
Like, if there was a tagline for who you are as a human being, like, what are you broadcasting to the world? And if that's something you're not happy about, it's something you can change, right? If I look back, like, I'm sure there's been times in my life where I was broadcasting a completely different message, and therefore I attracted different types of relationships. I think when I was a teen, I attracted a lot of people because I was trying to, and I couldn't afford anything, but I was trying to be the person who could wine and dine you at the fanciest restaurant, even though I couldn't afford it. I was the person who wanted to take you on the coolest date so that you would think I was really cool, but I couldn't even afford it. And I was doing those things because I did think that that's what women wanted. And then that would...
So I've also done that. What do you think women actually want today?
Oh, God. Financially or just generally you're saying?
What do you think they want in a man? This is in a straight relationship. What do women really want? I see mixed signals sometimes of what they say they want, but then what they go after can be completely different.
Well, I think that is the truth that I think most people are confused about what they want because there's a mix of what your mom said and dad said.
And their dysfunction.
And they're trying to heal that dysfunction. Yes, exactly. So you've got that complexity. You've then got the complexity of what media said. So, the Disney Princess Syndrome. That's a real thing. The Disney Princess Syndrome, you saw every Disney Princess chasing a prince, chasing a king, chasing a frog that would turn into a prince. Or a beast that would transform into a prince. A beast that would transform into a prince. You can change him. And you're chasing this love story that you were brainwashed to believe was what love looked like. So, you've got your parents, you've got family and friends, you've got TV and media, you've got music videos. Now you've got your first relationships and they all are confusing you as to what should I look for?
Yes.
And I think that people haven't taken a moment to step back and say, what do I want? What do I want? Not what does my mom think's good for me and what does Disney thinks good for me and what does everyone else think's good for me? What do I want?
Yeah. What do you think women really want today?
I would hope. This is my hope. I don't think I know because I guess the answer is people are confused. And by the way, I think men are equally confused on what they want because...
I mean, I know what I wanted for a long time. I wanted to have sexual connection. Because that's what I was desired and driven by. It wasn't always clear, but it was always like, oh, this person, I'm attracted to this person. I want to be with that. you know, that's the way I thought about my twenties, right? It was like, okay. And that never worked out. There was fun, there was excitement, there was heightened emotions, there was dopamine hits like crazy, but there was a lot of chaos and a lot of stress. And I think when we try to enter a relationship through sexual desire and not spiritual connection or value connection, you may have a lot of ups, but there also be a lot of downs. And I just, I experienced that over and over again, man. I think you got really lucky because you, you, you didn't, no, I had.
That in my teen years, but it's just you're so young that that's the only way you can think. And that's how you learn, too.
You learn through, like, oh, I tried this, and it didn't work. I had a lot of pain, and, and I tried it again. That didn't work either. It's like, I, I learned a lot longer than you did, so it took.
Me a lot longer, but. I would hope that people right now are looking for safety. I think feeling safe. And what I mean by safety is low stress, high peace. When I think of a high value person, I think of a high peaceful person. Like that's what I'm thinking about.
Yes.
Someone who has a sense of peace in who they are, what they're doing in life, and how they're going about it. Now everyone has anxiety, so you're not going to find someone who has no anxiety. That's not realistic. I have anxiety. Yeah, no one's perfect. Yeah, no one's perfect. So this isn't like, let me go find the person who has no anxiety. But it's the idea that someone is striving for peace. So like low stress, high peace, that's safety. That's what safety means.
I think safety- But people want safety, but they're addicted to drama. You know what I mean? They're addicted to drama and the highs and lows.
Yeah, because safety is boring. If someone makes me feel safe, it's boring. It's like, well, what do we do together if they make me feel safe? I know. Well, none of my friends think they're that interesting. Right now. Because it doesn't have that, what you're.
Saying, that highs and lows. I know. And I think that's just the, I just don't think that's, I mean, we, I witnessed this with my parents growing up, right? Just a lot of tension and stress and highs and lows and when's the repair gonna happen? And when are they gonna get back together in terms of like one left the room and anxiousness or screaming? And it's just like, when you grow up in a family dynamic of that, I'm not sure exactly if that's what you grew up in, but I think I hear a lot of people saying they had challenges with their parents, right? In some different format. When you grow up in that, you want safety and peace, but you've never experienced it. So you don't know what it feels like and you don't know how to create it. So you're almost anxious in trying to chase something or create something that you don't even know exists.
Oh, so good.
So you have to learn how to heal somehow and create safety within ourselves first before you can create it in another relationship. this episode is brought to you by Square. Your favorite neighborhood spots run on Square. And did you know Square can help you turn your small business idea into a big success? Yes, even that wild idea for squirrel fuel, your squirrel themed coffee bar. Square is so much more than just a point of sale for local businesses. What started as a little white card reader is now powering things behind the scenes, helping you manage finances, schedule staff, and cover cash flow gaps. With Square, you could keep things at squirrel fuel running like clockwork, no caffeine needed. Well, except for your baristas and good luck finding ones willing to wear a squirrel costume. Square gets it. Local businesses can be big business, yet with growth comes complexity. But whether you're expanding to new locations or building your loyal following, Square meets you at every opportunity. Square helps you handle today and dream bigger for tomorrow. Go to square.com/go/greatness to learn more. That's S-Q-U-A-R-E.com/G-O-G-R-E-A-T-N-E-S-S square meet you there. When I got injured playing football, everything in my life changed. My dream disappeared overnight. I was broke, crashing on my sister's couch, stuck feeling sorry for myself. But then I made a choice. Stay stuck in that pain or adapt a no bull mindset. and build something new. And that choice changed my life. The no Bull mentality is what no Bull is all about. No Bull is the footwear brand for those committed to getting stronger physically, mentally, and emotionally. Known for their award-winning shoes, no Bull continues to raise the bar with the All Day Rip Stop. I am a huge fan of these. Engineered for versatility, the All Day Rip Stop is designed to perform from early workouts to late nights and everything in between. with a soft foam midsole for comfort, targeted breathability, and a ripstop upper for extreme durability. They keep me moving comfortably all day long. I am a huge fan of these shoes. No shortcuts, no excuses, just commitment. That's the no Bull mindset. Exclusively for our listeners, no Bull is offering 30% off your order. Visit nobullproject.com/greatness for 30% off your entire order. That's nobullproject.com slash greatness for 30% off. Haven't you heard? The newest fashion trend is finding clothes that feel good and last. And that's where Quince comes in. Their lightweight layers and high-quality staples will become your new everyday essentials. Quince has all the things you actually want to wear, like organic cotton silk polos, European linen beach shorts, and pants that work for everything from backyard hangs to nice dinners. Everything I have from Quinte is such good quality and it's so comfortable. And the best part, everything with Quinte is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quinte gives you luxury pieces without the crazy markups. And Quinte only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. Stick to the staples that last with elevated essentials from Quince. Go to quince.com/Lewis for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com/Lewis to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com/Lewis.
I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. I've seen that again and again. I've realized that because people haven't experienced love, they don't know how to notice and receive it when it arrives knocking on their doorstep.
Conscious love.
Conscious love, because you've never received love without guilt or love without shame or conditioning.
Or needing to achieve or do something, right?
Yeah. And then now when you get it, when someone gives it to you, it goes over your head. and you get scared by it.
Very.
And I've seen that happen to people in my life, whether it's friends, family members, people I've worked with, where people get scared by love or they doubt it or they become cynical or skeptical of it because they've never experienced it. And you're right. The only person challenge you probably didn't get it from your parents. And so unless you're learning how to experience self-safety that's it.
It's creating that safety first before looking for it in a relationship.
Yes.
Yeah. Because if you don't feel safe and you try to find a partner who is safe, like you're still not safe with you. Yeah. You're going to be anxious, you're going to be avoidance, you're going to be insecure. Are they going to are they going to cheat on me? Are they going to really show up for me like they say they do? If you don't have that safety, it's going to be really hard to feel safe in another presence, especially when you give them your heart. When you open yourself up, you won't feel safe because you aren't safe with yourself.
I genuinely think that even the quest for wanting the 6 feet 100K is a quest for safety. There's a hidden belief that maybe you saw financial insecurity growing up in your home. And so when you're saying you want to be with someone who makes 100K.
It'S actually to make you feel safe.
A plea of safety. When you're saying you want to be with someone who's strong and powerful or whatever it may be, it's because maybe you felt unsafe growing up. Sometimes our desires are completely linked to our pains and stresses and traumas. And so it's not that they're wrong, it's just that they're being verbalized in a different way.
But the number one thing I would learn, I mean- But just 'cause they- Someone might make $100,000 doesn't mean they're gonna be emotionally safe. No, 100% safe. Spiritually safe, sexually safe. It doesn't mean that they're gonna be their word. Typically, if someone's driven to earn and make more, unless they have consciousness around it, they're gonna have certain values around money. Well, here's the thing, this point you just made, like if someone felt unsafe as a child because maybe they got evicted a bunch or they didn't, you know, their parents were always talking about, we don't have money, we don't have money, and they felt unsafe. They felt insecure around money to provide for things. If you're searching for a guy who has money to provide, out of a lack, out of a fear, out of a pain, out of a worry, and they give that to you, what happens when they take it away? What happens if they give it to you conditionally? You're gonna feel anxious, scared, insecure, and in fear around money. You're not gonna feel safe still. So you're giving one man all the power to say, okay, I can provide 'cause I make $100,000 a year. You have to be, you know, susceptible to whatever that human being says. It's their way, essentially. They're in more control then. There's a power dynamic then of, I don't have money because I don't feel safe or secure. This guy does, so he's going to be able to provide and protect. What do you have to do so that this person wants to stay with you then? Yeah. You're now, you know, there is a power dynamic, there is a control dynamic that I don't know you're going to love long term. So you're entering a relationship out of insecurity out of a lack of safety yourself. Now, I'm not saying, you know, if you can be with someone who has more money, cool. There can be more options, but it doesn't mean more harmony. It just means, okay, they have more money to do things with money.
Yeah, yeah, that resonates. That resonates really strongly. Just to throw it out there, we've done this through asking our teams, looking on social, bringing out themes that we think are buzzy right now. This one was, Is there a difference in society if a man says, I don't want to make money, is that seen the same way as if a woman says, I don't want to make money? Or is there a discrepancy there? And how do we view it?
You started off, you started off.
I watched this really good movie recently, which I recommend people watch, definitely trigger warning. It's called Fair Play. And the movie is about, without giving too much away, the movie is about a couple. who are romantically intimate, they seem to have a really strong, confident, happy relationship, but they work at the same place and no one knows that they're together.
Interesting. So they're hiding their relationship.
They're hiding their relationship.
At their work environment.
At their work environment. And they're both working at a finance firm and they do well for themselves. They're both smart. But then there comes a time where there's a promotion up for grabs.
And they're both trying to get the same job.
They're both trying to get the same job. And I won't give away the rest of the movie. Everyone should watch it. I think it's on Netflix. And, like, it shows what it looks like to have this competition and envy and all of this in a relationship and how it affects not just the boardroom, but the bedroom, and how it affects the dynamics of family and everything. And so, that movie, to me, was a really strong narrative around gender roles and how much money people make. And so many people come up to me, like, Jay, we like you, but we love Rati. I'm like, that works for me, 'cause I love Rati, too. and they'll always say to me, they'll be like, you know, Raghav's career is taking off, like what if it surpasses yours? And what if, you know, she does more than you and does better than you? How would you feel about that? And I always say, well, I plan on being really successful. So if my wife outperforms me- you- guys are crushing me. I love it. I'm so happy. And I think that's because I feel confident in who I am, what I offer to the world, and how I want to show up. And therefore, I can feel really confident for my wife and seeing her grow and you know, her cookbooks coming out and she's got podcasts coming out and I'm excited for her. And I think my wife should have the biggest TV show in the world because she's so charismatic and just, she's beautiful and wonderful in the sense of just her energy. I would love for her to have all those things. And so I think when I look at this, yes, did I feel I had a responsibility to make money? Yes. I think I was raised in a more traditional way, even though funny thing is, my mum was the breadwinner in my home.
Really?
Yeah, my mom's the breadwinner in my home. So my mom used to wake us up, make us breakfast, drop us to school, go to work, make money, come back, pick us up from school, make dinner, give us a packed lunch, work on our homework with us, and then go back out to work if she had to. So I actually saw what a household looked like when I had a powerhouse superwoman mom who actually did everything. And my dad wasn't always the main breadwinner ever since I was probably 10 years old. And so for the biggest part of my life, my adult life, especially, my mom was that person. And my mom did that because she loved us.
Yes.
And she never ever looked at it as, why am I having to do this? And why is he? And I think my desire to wanting to be a breadwinner is not because I'm a man, it's because I saw how much stress it placed on my mom.
Yes.
And I was like, I never wanna see someone that stressed out myself or my partner. This isn't about gender roles anymore. This is about, again, what me and you keep coming back to. And I think this is why we have a good friendship, because we value peace so highly.
Yes.
I value peace of my mom. I value peace of my wife. I value the peace of myself. And so I work hard because I want to live a peaceful life. Not, not because I think I have to be the provider.
Right. I, for me, it comes down to knowing yourself and knowing the role you want to play in a relationship. Now, I will say this, there are very few relationships that I know where the woman is the breadwinner and the man is choosing to work less for whatever reasons. Maybe they have kids and he's, you know, more at home dad or things like that. or he's just not as thinking about being the provider, right? For the relationship in the home. There are very few relationships that I see have a lot of harmony. There are a couple I've seen that do, but not as much harmony as I think, right? So I'm not saying these can't work, but I go back to you. It's like knowing yourself, knowing your strength, and knowing the role you want to play in relationship. I was playing basketball for the first time last night. Little tired actually, this first time jumping around in like a year. And I was realizing there was a guy who's, I don't know, 6'10 on the team that was playing.
And you're what?
6'4. 6'4. And so he's tall, right? He's like, can just jump and dunk so easily.
And he's just like, he's supposed to be down by.
Oh, you know how I feel when I'm with you. Exactly. Yeah. And he tried to bring the ball up the court. He tried to dribble it like a point guard. And it got stolen pretty easily. And he just kind of fumbled around and fell down. It was chaos of him trying to be in a role that he was not his strength is not what he, you know, is good at.
Oh, I love that.
And it wasn't the best harmony and flow. But then he was underneath the basket. He got a rebound. He jammed it and it was just like, boom, there was explosive in terms of like this passion and flow. He was in his strength and his role. Right. And I think it's just knowing what type of strengths we have as individuals.
Yes.
Some men are more driven and high earners and want to create and want to provide. cause they want that, it makes them feel good. Other men may not be that. Some women may want to be that, that high earner and driven and, you know, working all the time and, and be a provider because it makes them feel a certain way. Maybe it makes them feel more safe or protected or whatever, or less reliant on someone. And all those things are, are fair game. I think it's knowing yourself. I love that. And with Martha, you know, I was gonna say that.
Yeah, I was gonna bring up.
Yeah. Your friends, she's been crushing it. to 20 years, you know, she's done like 40 movies and she's creative and does commercials. She's doing a lot of stuff. She's making great money. But I enjoy providing. Now, I also enjoy support. I also enjoy peace. I also enjoy someone taking care of logistics, someone taking care of all the things that I don't want to do around the home that cause me stress. Someone being responsible for those things and someone also contributing financially in certain ways. and fully appreciating the role, the strengths, and the value she brings. It doesn't need to be 50/50 financially, but we 100% bring our strengths and values to our individual roles that creates peace and harmony. And for me, that is the key. And I had to learn the hard way for 20-something years in multiple relationships that were dysfunctional based on lack of communication around who I am, what I want, who the other person is, their strengths, what they want, and the roles we want to share together.
Absolutely.
And that's what it comes down for me.
Absolutely. I love everything you said because I think that's the reality of the communication, not only the self-awareness but the communication in a relationship to say, which one of us wants to go to work? Which one of us is really ambitious and crushes it. Which one of us, and maybe it's both of us, maybe it's neither of us, maybe it's one or the other. And I think that's where the challenge arises, when we both feel like, well, neither of us really want to, we don't love what we do, we hate work, we have to do it. And I think that's where what you're saying comes even more into play, this idea of mutual support. And I think what's really interesting is this is how I judge it. I feel like, A relationship is an energy exchange physically, financially, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. The problem is that the financial exchange is the only visible one. And so we put it at the top of the hierarchy. So if you're sitting right now in your relationship going, wait a minute, I pay for everything, I would ask you who's mentally leading the relationship? so you're financially leading it. Who's mentally leading the relationship? Who's physically leading the relationship? And I mean physically, what I mean is who's taking care of the physical things like the house, the, the, the responsibilities, the things that have to happen, who's taking emotional care, who's creating that peace? Yes. So I've said that with me and Radhi for years. Like, you know, when we first moved to the US, Radhi couldn't work. She was on my Visa, Etc. And then Radhi's doing really, really well for herself now and. and we co-create and work together financially. But then if I look at emotionally, Rati is so emotionally regulated. She brings so much peace to this relationship. I'm the one who can have mood swings and be a moody guy. My wife is so emotionally regulated. I'm so grateful for that. She leads that. She leads us physically. She makes sure that we both work out. She's the one making sure I eat right because she takes care of what foods and snacks are available in the house. So now you're looking at another thing that goes a point on her side. Okay, mentally maybe that's a bit more me. I'm the one who's saying, okay, this is how we're gonna take care of ourselves. This is what we're focusing on. I'm the one who's strategizing where we're heading. So now if you look at it, we're equal.
Exactly. But if you're looking at one thing- Just money. It doesn't work. Just money. It doesn't work like that. You gotta be thinking about the contribution for your role and responsibility in the relationship. Yes. And again, if we come from the basis of relationships are about giving, not about receiving.
100%.
If we come into that mindset, because a lot of us get into it because we want to feel something as opposed to create and give something and contribute something. And so we just have to shift our thinking around how we can serve in the relationship first. But we also don't want to be thinking, okay, I need to be serving in so many ways and I'm not going to receive anything.
Yeah.
And I'm going to be, you know, paying for everything, showing up emotionally. This person's emotionally unregulated, constantly. I have to clean up everything around the house. This person doesn't want to do it. There's an imbalance then. And that's when you're going to have a lot of conflict, frustration, stress, and you're gonna be asking yourself, why am I in this relationship? Yeah.
And that's why I think you have to look at it this broadly, because if you just look at one thing, like, same with. Same with Radhi. If she looked at it as just who's doing the housework and making sure the fridge is stocked and everything, then she would think she's. doing way more than I am.
You don't help around the house ever. You don't pick up after yourself.
You're the whatever. This is what we do. We just focus on the one thing we're getting right, and we're measuring our partner based on that one thing.
Yes.
And that is the recipe for disaster in a relationship.
Is this. Do you have an assessment of these.
Five things in your book? Yeah. This assessment is broken down. Yeah. Like how to Value each of those five things equally. Because we see money as more important than emotional and mental support.
Well, money is a big thing because money equals your time.
Yeah.
And your life. Time is your life. And so if you're, say, here's an example. I was in a previous relationship. I won't say which one, but I was in a previous one where the person I was dating wanted me to buy them a car. And we had just, you know, we hadn't been dating that long, right? and it didn't make sense to me. This person also had their own money, so they had money to buy their own car, but they wanted me to buy the car. And it didn't make sense because we. We weren't in harmony at that time, so we were already kind of stressed out. I wasn't even sure of the future. And it was a big issue for this person. And I remember thinking, okay, let me explore this. You want to. What type of car do you want to buy? How much? Like, it was like she wanted me to buy her, like, a 50 60, 000 car. It's a lot of money. and you can pay for this on your own, but she just had it in her mind that the man was supposed to pay for things. That was in her mind, right? Even though she had money, and so I was like, well, I don't have peace, so why should I be paying to spend my time from the past to work hard to pay for something when there's not peace? There doesn't feel like an equal exchange of shared values. So I think we got to understand what it is you want, what you're willing to provide for and pay for, you know, money is your time and your life.
Yes.
You know, you work hard and you go in the studio and you record things and that takes days of your life. And if you invest that money into something that isn't serving the relationship for greater purpose, then essentially you're wasting, you're spending money on things that don't serve you to cause you more stress and you're wasting your life.
Yeah.
Wow. That's what it feels like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So money gets to be really It is important.
Yeah. It shouldn't be devalued in that.
And Martha also says to me, she makes a great point. And so I'm going to say on the other side of things, she's like, listen, and I don't need her to financially pay the same amounts of things. It's not what I want. And she said to me, I do a lot of things around our home and phone calls with people. And that is time and time is money where I'm not making money.
Totally.
So I am coordinating things. I'm on phone, I'm scheduling, I'm making sure this is taken care of so you don't have to worry about it. Yeah. And it is her time, which is money. And so it's acknowledging that for that if you're a woman and you're contributing in a lot of ways with your time, you may not be spending the money to buy things, but that time is money essentially, it is your life.
So I had a friend, the woman was a doctor performing really well, and he was a lawyer when they met and he was crushing it. So they were like, both high earners doing really well for themselves. Then what happened was he was going through a personal issue of depression and challenges and, you know, going through his own mental health journey. And at that point, he could no longer function at work. Like he just couldn't function. It wasn't even that he didn't want to. It was that he just didn't find like he could function. And so he stepped away.
And stop making money.
And stop making money. And at that point, I remember talking to them and asking them if she was okay with it. And she goes, I didn't marry him for that. I was with him because he was always there to listen to me. He was understood me. He always valued me. And I love being a doctor. I love the work I do. And if it means that I'm gonna be the breadwinner forever, I'm good with that. And to me, that was just this really healthy look at what a long-term relationship is, because you don't have any idea of the highs and lows that are gonna come on either side. And one of the things you just mentioned to me, this I love, this I got shown years ago, and I bring it up because it's the point you're making that I think so many people are undervalued. So there was a survey done of 6,000 mums, and they estimated that a stay-at-home mum's work an average of 94 hours a week. Oh man. And it would collect a mum's salary of 113,000 $586 a year when you trade that time for money.
That's true.
And obviously, I'm sure that number is totally inaccurate because I think we'd all say that mums are priceless, valueless, like you can't even- If you're saying, okay.
If you're gonna work somewhere and get a certain hourly rate, this is what you'd receive.
Yeah, the fact that if people, and whether that's a stay-at-home mom or a stay-at-home dad, if we can't see that as a massive role, if we can't see a homemaker as a massive role, if we can't see the person who's making sure that there's food in the fridge and that there's food on the table, all aspects of the role, if we can't see that, then we're missing the point.
Absolutely.
We're completely missing the point. And I think too many of us are overvaluing and undervaluing and not looking at the complete picture of what that takes.
I think this is where it gets awkward. you know, in the awkward therapy because, but I, again, I just feel like it's knowing what role do you want to play in your life? What is that role? Do you want to be a stay-at-home mom and that's the role you want to live? Do you want, or do you want to be, have kids, but then go back to work three months later and be a high earner and, you know, find babysitter and daycare and find other support? and try to do both. I'm not saying there's a right or wrong. You just got to know what you want and what you're best at. What is your strength? What is the role you want to play? And what consequence is this role going to have now and in the future? Could be a good consequence. But you being at work all day for 18 years of your kids lives and then coming home at night and being there on the weekends and showing up in that way, what consequence will that have? Maybe it's a good consequence where it's like, Wow, my mom like did it all. She was like the boss. She was this, this, and she showed up for us. She was super mom. She provided and then she was at home. She was giving and she was caring, but that's time. That's a lot of time and energy. And maybe you're not gonna be as connected to your partner, your husband. Maybe you're not gonna be as present in things. Maybe you're not gonna be able to take care of your health as well. So there might be a consequence to whatever decision that we make. Absolutely. I think it's knowing what we want, what our role is. and we don't always have the luxury of choosing these things. It's not like, oh, if we're struggling with money, both people might have to work, right?
Totally.
We may not always have this luxury of like, well, I just want to be a stay-at-home mom all day because that's what I want. You may need to work weekends and nights and things like that.
So, yeah, sound advice.
And it comes back to what I think we both, I think both of our philosophy is what brings the most harmony and peace. in a relationship and knowing that and trying to, to, to live into that as frequently as possible. So.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
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We're going to dive into this as a follow-up and going a bit deeper to push the awkward button. So how do you feel about dividing up rent? Who should take on the responsibility? And how would you feel if your partner was covering more rent than you?
It's all situational. So there's one situation whereas what if someone already owns the home? Okay.
Would you feel emasculated if your partner pay for more.
Pay for me. When I feel masculine personally, yes. I want to feel emasculated. I feel like I'm not doing my role to the best of my ability. I would feel awkward personally because of my makeup and my personality and my. My beliefs and my values. And I would feel like there would be a dynamic that I wouldn't enjoy. So it doesn't mean it couldn't work. That's not what the end game would want to be. so maybe I would have less at that time and I'd be like, okay, this is where I'm at. And it would drive me to get out of the place that I'm in. It would give me a reason to kind of like overcome what I'm going through.
Yeah.
So for me, that's that's how I would feel based on my just my values and my my beliefs, I guess. But again, I don't know. What do you think?
So I think it depends on like, again, it comes down to was this a place that was previously rented and someone's moving in? Yeah. Because if it's my place and I'm already renting it and then I'm inviting someone to move in with me, then I've got to have that conversation up front whether they're now going to join in.
Sure. Right.
Because I'm already paying that rent.
Yeah.
Now is it, are we actually separately renting and we want to get a place together? Now we're going to set that budget together and have that conversation. Then I think it's a great 50 50 moment. Yes. If that's, if that's where you are in your relationship. And I think so much of this is defined by how confident we feel in a relationship. But I would encourage people that I think we've made love feel like if someone loves me, then they'll pay 100%. I don't think that's a healthy way of measuring love. I think love- A guy could say, well, if they love me, they'd have.
Sex with me every time I want it. Yep. You know, they would do what I want anytime I want it. Anytime I want it.
They cook me a meal every day.
They'd have sex with me. That's what love is for me. Yeah. So they need to do what I want.
And it gets so messy when you have that standard. And so, To me, it's having that healthy conversation of saying, we want to get a place together, we're gonna split it, or you're moving in with me. Hey, if this works out, if this is going in the right direction, maybe we can have that conversation down the line of how we split rent. And I know these are the unsexy, uncomfortable conversations, but they're real. Like you need to have those. Like me and Riley have those conversations right now where we're like, all right, well this is our mortgage payment.
How are we splitting that? How are we figuring that out? We've got this payment, how are we figuring So, I'm trying that out. There was two people that I lived with before in previous relationships that I didn't have these questions, these conversations with. They were just assumed, like we would figure it out because we care, we like each other, we love each other, whatever. That's the, and they, they ended poorly, right? It was stressful, it was exhausting. It wasn't fun and exciting, right? Yeah. And I think you've got to really ask the unsexy, boring, not fun questions before you get into living together. Yeah. Don't just casually rent together. Yeah. Don't just just casually move in. Yeah. Don't just casually be like, okay, we're gonna play house before marriage. Unless you have these conversations. This is something, Martha, this is fresh for me because this happened, you know, a year and a half ago, I guess, with Martha and myself. We were dating for a few months and before we became, I guess, exclusively committed. And we had all these questions before we got exclusively committed. Then We were dating for a while longer. We decided to rent an apartment together. She had a place that she owned. And I said, I'm not moving in there. There was like an option, but I was like, I don't want to move into a place that you own. It just felt weird. It felt awkward to me. What am I going to pay all the rent? Am I going to play half the rent? It didn't feel right. I go, if we're going to do this, let's go into a new place and I will pay for all the rent.
Right.
I'm pretty sure that's what we did. I think she paid for utilities and other things and food and we made an agreement. I was like, I feel comfortable paying for this, but I want to have support. How would you like to support? And she was like, I'm happy to pay for these things and this and take care of this and make sure all this is handled. I go, that feels great to me. This agreement around money feels really good. Then we entered the apartment that we lived in with that agreement. There was never a time where I was like, oh, I'm paying for more things and resentful and frustrated, you know what I mean? And so I think you got to have these conversations about what feels good for you, your strengths and your roles.
Yeah.
And make sure you're in agreement before entering this.
Well, I think what we're getting at here is there are these hidden expectations in relationships. and when you're on the other side of a hidden expectation, it breeds resentment. And now it comes out in that argument at night about the TV show you're watching when that isn't the issue. The issue is you feel like that person is living off of your hard work.
They don't value you.
But you didn't want to say it to them because you wanted to be the nice guy too. And so there's this whole people pleasing thing that comes into it or the hidden expectation. And I think I've been the same. It's what's always worked for me and Rati. It's like, From day one, we had these conversations. We've continued to have these conversations even as things have changed. Because I think if you're not having these uncomfortable, difficult conversations, then I promise you, you're feeling awkward and uncomfortable in your mind. You're frustrated, resentful, frustrated, resentful. And now that's causing way more issues. So how do I think the rent should be split? I don't like, and I think we're both this way. I'm not giving people like, it should be 50/50. I think numbers are stupid thing to give people because everyone's situation is so unique. But you've got to be having this conversation and finding out a split that you're genuinely both comfortable with. And by the way, if you're not comfortable, say it. But if you have a silly expectation for the other person hidden that, oh, if they love me, they'll take care of everything, that's not gonna work. That's not love.
Yeah, I mean, again, Martha could pay for half of everything. Yeah. And she'd be fine.
Yeah.
'Cause she makes good money and she's saved her money and invested her money. She's been smart for 20 years working. Like she's got a history of being smart with her money, but that's not what I want. Yeah.
I don't want that from her.
And she's happy to receive in that way too, yeah. I want other things from her than her contributing her money 50/50. That's not what I want in a relationship. Other people might want that. Yeah.
I don't want that. And that's okay if they want that, yeah.
That's great, yeah. It's figuring out what brings you the most peace and harmony. Yeah. and less stress. Because stress is the thing that causes the most pain physically for us, mentally, emotionally. And it causes relationships to die. Stress, constant stress causes them to die. Maybe you stay together forever, but the relationship is dead and it's not thriving. It's not growing or flourishing. And so be very honest with the person you're dating when before you get into a living arrangement about how you want to show up and provide the role you want to play and what will make you feel good if the other person provides in a certain way. And you may be off.
Definitely.
And that just may mean you need to get clear on, okay, do we even want to be together? This could be a big red flag. If we can't figure out how to live together, can we be together forever?
Totally.
Just because we love each other, we like each other, we've had good times for the last year doesn't mean you should be together.
Totally. And I don't think you have to have your financial situation match your emotional state. Like those are two separate conversations. Yeah. Because your financial situation doesn't necessarily align with what you're feeling emotionally. Like someone could be all in emotionally, but they may not have the finances to align the same way as that.
But showing up emotionally and contributing to that way is a big value add.
Massive.
And there are a lot of people that can have money but be jerks.
And the other side too, where I think a lot of people feel like you could be with a great person, but if they don't want to work and they don't want to put in the time and have these conversations, that's unhealthy too.
Resentful that too.
Yeah, exactly. So love's not gonna make up for either of those things.
Love is not enough.
Yeah, this is yours.
Love is not enough, man. and that's why I say I've seen relationships where women are in the, they're higher earners than the men they're with. But they're like, man, this guy shows up and he's a good guy and he shows up for my kids or this and that. But if the man is not willing in my mind to figure out a way to contribute also financially, I just think it's hard long term. I just haven't seen it work long term unless there's an agreement. where the woman's like, I want to make all the money and I just want you to be the stay at home dad.
Interesting.
And I want you to show up and contribute in other ways around the homes and make me feel like I just haven't seen many situations. Now, maybe that'll change. I don't know. But yeah, I have a feeling, I mean, this is awkward, but I have a feeling that women in general want a man to be able to provide in some ways financially. And if there's, if they can't provide in any way financially, I don't think that's what a lot of women want. I think there has to be some financial contribution beyond, I'm just gonna show up and be a good guy and love you. I don't know. That might be the most awkward thing I said. But it might be.
No, I get what you're saying. It's definitely like it will push some buttons for some people. But I think what you're saying is that that's why it's so important that people reflect and really are clear about what they expect. Because I think a lot of people go, no, I don't expect that. I don't want that. But then do you really want it? Right? and there's a lot of things that get lost in those hidden expectations. Yeah.
And it all depends on situations. I mean, if you're a man that's, if you're like, okay, I'm not going to make any money because that's not what I want, but my role, I can build a home. I can go hunt.
I can do every, I can provide in every other way. It's all value. Exactly.
It's all value.
It's like how much value are you bringing? That's it. That's it. This one's interesting. Should you share a bank account and when? Oh, man. I remember that, and this may be an Indian culture thing, but I remember when me and Radhi got married, that was really important to her. And it comes from a family expectation around this is the time when you need full transparency and full openness. I think for me, it didn't feel like a big thing. I've always been very transparent. I didn't have issues with it. I married Radhi. with all the intentions of wanting to be together forever. And I saw everything we now had as ours, granted I did not have a lot. And so- Roddy: yeah.
-Wes: yeah. -Roddy: when you had a lot of financial success in the career and the business, and you just met, and, you know, in a couple of years you got married. Would you have that same thought of life?
If I'm completely honest, and doesn't apply to Rati as a person. I think it applies to meeting someone. I don't think I'd be the same because I think I have so much more to lose and I have so much more. Not that I wouldn't. If I was going to marry someone, I'm sure I trust them.
Yes.
But I don't think that in this interaction, that exchange would feel equal or accurate.
Yeah. And something you build.
Time we've spent together.
Whereas. Yeah.
You know, Riley was with me when I had absolutely nothing apart from myself to offer and has been with me and also never expected anything. When we lived in a tiny, you know, shoebox apartment in New York, she was happy. When we had a little place that we had in London, she was happy. Like, Riley's never wanted stuff. She's never asked, she's never made that the way this relationship's gone.
So if you were meeting someone in another world and you built the business that you have.
I would struggle and I I see that with my, I see that with friends I have, like I have male friends who are far more successful than I am financially and they struggle to date because they have no idea what the person is attracted to. And some of these people are public figures, some of these are not public figures. The ones who are not public figures can get away with it, but they're also scared of like, well, when do I invite the person to my house? And when do I allow them to see all this other stuff that I have? And what if they Google me and, you know, all these kind of things? And by the way, this applies to female friends I have too. Like, I have plenty of friends who are really successful women who feel the same way about dating men because they don't know as well. They're like, well, are they just trying to get friendly with the people I know? And do they just want access to my network? Are they just trying to find the person who's going to fund their next movie? Maybe they're an up-and-coming, like, where are they trying to go? So I don't think this is a gender thing. Again, I think everyone feels this. I would say, yes, that when I met RAdhi, again, this does not apply to RAdhi. I would have done that with anyone I married at the time because I would only marry someone I trust. I think now- you- had nothing. But I had nothing, so it wouldn't even be a thought. Yes.
Because I had nothing to lose. But now you have something.
Would you share a bank account? I wouldn't now.
Yeah.
I don't think it would be- I don't think I'd- I think there'd be.
Parts of it, but not all of it. Right, right.
Yeah. I think it's all situational.
I mean, yeah. I mean, tweak to your situation. It's all situational. I mean, we're in this situation right now. we, I probably wouldn't have, we're not married yet, right? So we're engaged, we're not married yet, but we have a home together. You know, we do a lot together. Yeah. And we are intending to be married. This is our vision. We want to have a family, all these things.
You're both also equally like people who.
She'S got her businesses, she's got her stuff and, you know, she's got her money, I've got mine, et cetera. And so we're kind of navigating this right now because we're, we're both, you know, we're both older, right? We're and trying to figure this out. And we created a joint account for the home.
That makes perfect sense.
Right? It's like, it's part of like getting the loan and all these different things.
Because it's joint decision.
Yes. So we created that. Now, there are certain amounts that we put in for the home that were different, but we had agreements on what we're going to do. So we have a joint account there. Right. And I feel fine, but we don't touch that money. It's just sitting there to be able to pay the house or whatever. But I, I'm not going to give her my business accounts. You know, it's like I have a business I've been running for a long time, and I don't need her, I don't need access to her business accounts. Now, when we get married, I'm assuming it, maybe it'll make sense to create a joint account where there's a certain amount of money for certain logistics or whatever.
But I don't know. I think I still have to figure all this out. And that's the right answer because it's like, same with me. I'm, I'm supposing that if I was to, I wouldn't know, but you've meant a lot of words right now. So we're talking about a joint business account. You're talking about joint decision making. You're talking about a joint home. Like that's what I'm saying. Like if there's joint decision making, it makes sense. If there's joint purchases, it makes sense. I think that's the point that.
Here's my account, you have access to it, spend whatever you want.
That doesn't work for me. That doesn't work for anyone, right? Like it's so unhealthy. And I think again, we look at that and go, But that's not love. Like, love would mean- Don't you trust me?
-I know. -Don't you want to share everything?
-Everything that you've built. Yeah. And it's like, well, yes, I do trust you. That's why we're in this world together. But we're talking here about decades of work. Yes. That you don't just give away and.
Share in a moment.
-Because of love. -Because of love, yeah. And I think a lot of people look at that and be like, well, that's not love.
You don't love someone. And I'm like, I can't, obviously I'm looking at it hypothetically. Just because you love someone doesn't mean you're supposed to be married. Yeah. Also because lots of people fall in love, get married, and they get divorced. Does that mean they didn't love each other? Or does it just mean they didn't align on how to make a relationship work living together with their lives together?
And these things can get messy that way. And that's what I think you're protecting that. Yes. Knowing the reality of relationships and knowing that breakups, divorces, all these things happening all the time. When you have money tied up in it, it gets very messy.
Yeah. And I think that's why, you know, I don't know if we're going to be talking about prenups. Yeah, we should. Because I. I interviewed someone recently, a woman who I asked her about, like, she's made a lot of money later in her life. Right. And I said, is it important for women to have a prenup who make a lot of money? And she said, before I was making this money and I was with the guy, he was making more. Now I'm making more. and she was like, it's really important for me to have a prenup now since the financial dynamic has shifted. Right now, she said it in a way that was like, for both of us, like, it's for him and for me. But her thoughts on, like, prenups are like, I think if you're making a lot of money as a woman, you should have it. Yeah. Yeah. Now, there's more to that that we unpacked, but I don't want to just blanket statement this, but, and for me, I think it's about agreements. It's about clarity and agreements. And again, I'm still kind of figuring this out in this process right now with myself, but I think when you have clarity of like, okay, the intention is to be together and to be together forever is when people get married, right? That's kind of the intention. It's not let's be together for 10 years and see what happens.
Totally.
But I think it's also clear to say, if this, when this, how this, what will be next?
And that's, you're actually protecting and honoring each other. by having these conversations as opposed to just expecting again that this is what love means. And I think that's where we make the biggest mistakes, where we're like, love to me means everything that is yours is mine, everything that mine is yours. Okay, if we both agree on that, do it. That's beautiful. Like, I'm not, by the way, I don't think me and Louis here are saying you have to have a prenup. If you don't want one, that's beautiful. I respect that. I don't have one, right? Like, we never needed one. We never did one. It's beautiful. I'm not saying you have to have one, I'm saying please have that conversation. Have the conversation. And don't feel uncomfortable bringing it up because if someone really honors you and values you, all you're doing is honoring something. By the way, people have prenups for like when their parents wanna give them gifts. 100%, yeah. So like let's say you're with someone and their parents are like, Hey, when we pass on, I'm gonna give this gift to my child. They want the partner to sign a.
Prenup because they're like, this belongs to my son or whatever it may be or daughter. I think, whether you call it a.
Prenup or an agreement, I think an.
Agreement creates more clarity agreements all the way. And it creates freedom. You can call it a prenup. You can call it, we just want to have an agreement, whatever it is. I think people have this weird thing around a prenup.
It carries baggage.
The word carries baggage. As opposed to, can we create an agreement that if you cheat on me and you want to leave, you don't get to take everything. Yeah. Can we just make that agreement? Like that's not fair. Yeah. Whereas if we don't have an agreement.
The state has their agreements. Yes. And I like this.
I like this. The state is already going, made an agreement for you. based on your marriage. Each state has different agreements. Do we value those agreements? Does that feel fair and right for me? And if it does, cool, we don't need a prenup. We like that they can do this and they'll divvy it up how they want, 50/50, and they'll give us custody how they want. If we agree with their thoughts on our lives and our relationship, that's a great point. Then we'll give them power.
That's a great point.
If we want to take back our power for our relationship, Let's create an agreement. And if you turn that into a prenuptial agreement, great.
I love that.
Creates clarity. So you're giving the state power over your relationship breakup or you create that power.
That's the win. That's the win. I love it.
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One thing I was thinking of, and we don't need to go into this, but it was an honest thought. I think what I said about the prenup, about success and prenup, I actually said it for wanting people to be more thoughtful. I think I'm a, I've got to a place in my life, and I've always been this way, is that if someone's gonna take and steal from me, I'm like, have it. I actually don't even care. I'm on a person, if you actually asked me, we've had, I mean, this bar, I wouldn't put live, but like, we've had employees steal from us. Of course, me too, man. We've had, like, you know, right? And I've never tried to get it back. I was just like, cool, if that's you, bro, fired, take it, get lost.
I don't care. Like, I'm good. Like, I'm not that guy. Like, I'm not someone who's, but if.
You got a 100 million in the bank and you have a partner that's like, I'm gonna take everything because you hurt me. Yeah.
That's a different thing.
I think comically though, I'm like, I know that karma will take care of that. I think that's how I genuinely live.
That's also like, okay, you spent 20-30 years building a business.
Totally. 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Man or woman, it's just like, you hurt me, you lied to me, you didn't give me what I wanted. Now I'm gonna take everything. No, everything. That's the way people think sometimes. Or I'm gonna make your life miserable to get everything that I want. An interesting side note here. there's a famous couple, I'll just say in the last few years, so I won't give it away. But there's a famous couple that I've heard they had a prenup and it's a and I'm hearing that it's a very clean divorce process because they've gone through because they had the prenup. And I think it was the woman's decision because she had a lot of money. Right. So as opposed to it's already hard enough to go through a breakup, just a romantic relationship. I can only imagine how much harder it is to go through a divorce. The pain, the sadness, the loss of memories and the identity, and the you have to split friendships now, all these things. If you have kids, the pain of a divorce must be tremendous.
100%. So, we've talked about so many things today, and I feel like We've covered some really good ground. And by the way, me and Lewis are not sitting here as experts in this space. We're talking about our reflections, our thoughts, like our personal experiences, just being vulnerable because we think we want to encourage more vulnerable conversations. And I'm hoping that we're hoping that this conversation is going to make you talk to your partner, make to talk to your friends about these things and create agreements. But we want to end on this last one. And it's this idea or even like a summarizing thought. around whether we feel if we took these traditional gender roles that have been established over time away from our minds, would that actually improve our relationships or would it actually reduce our relationships?
What do you think?
My take is that I feel the conditioning of previous gender roles is what creates confusion. So the expectation that he should pay on the first date or the expectation that we should share bank accounts or the expectation that you should provide and I'll do this, it reduces the conversation that needs to happen because we make assumptions. And when you're making assumptions, you're no longer having agreements. If you didn't have assumptions, you get the opportunity to make agreements. and say, let's talk about this. Let's discuss it. Today we don't discuss, we don't talk, we don't conversate. We have expectations. We have expectations because they've been made up by someone 50 years ago.
Who were probably divorced. Yeah, exactly.
Who were stressed out, divorced, or whatever. Exactly. Weren't happy. So that's, yeah, that's my take. It's as simple as that. That I think the conversation we've had today isn't about gender. It's about this idea of, can you communicate?
Can you connect? If that's what love is, the ability to have those awkward, uncomfortable conversations. Yes, courage is the key. Courage to know yourself and who you are, courage to know what you want and not what you think you're supposed to have or what your parents want you to have, but what you want. Encourage to own the role and responsibility you want to step in, the contribution you want to step into and communicate, this is who I am. This is who I want to be. This is where I want to go. Do you want to be in this partnership with me? Do you want to play this game? It's not a game of love, but you want to play this game of life. It's like we're doing this together. Are we going to be good teammates? Are we going to be in alignment on most things? Or if we're not, are we going to be able to have conscious conflict, you know, and find ways to repair what you talk about so much on how to fight, which is one of the keys to you, figuring out how to have a healthy relationship. And if we can do that, I just think there's going to be a lot more Harmony and peace and actual you're going to appreciate the person you're with more and more when you have these awkward, courageous conversations with them.
Absolutely, absolutely. And they never stop.
Never stop. Never stop. What's the most awkward conversation you've had with Roddy recently that you're like, man, we're still in this dance together. We're still having these conversations because you guys continue to evolve. What's the most recent awkward conversation?
It's a habit that I have of asking these four check-ins. so I believe that every relationship should have four check-ins don't you do this on Sundays?
When do you do this? Or quarterly?
There's different.
Yeah.
So one's a daily check-in and the daily check-in is, what was your highlight of today? Or what did you learn today? It allows you to have a moment of connection with that person, especially when you have a busy day and you don't see them all day. I have one once a week, which is, what do you have coming up this week? And how can I be aware? Let me just be aware of it. How can I help you with it? How can I assist you this week? What do you have coming up? Then I have one every quarter that says, what's your, oh no, this is, this is the awkward one. So the question every quarter is, is this relationship going in the direction you want?
Ooh.
If it's not, what are we willing to do for it?
That's interesting.
So that's the one that I ask every quarter because I think if you measure things yearly, A year is way too long a time. You can't measure it daily, 'cause that's over analyzing it. But somewhere in the middle, there has to be that question of like, well, what's going, what's happening in the right direction? What are we willing to change? What do we need to change? How are we feeling about this? And I think that conversation is one that I never wanna stop having, because that's the only way. If you've got to measure your business quarterly, why are we not measuring our relationships quarterly? You're looking at your numbers and your stats and you're analyzing and looking at the data. But there's no relationship data. Your relationship data is what you felt like on your wedding day or your first day. And you're still using 20-year-old data or five-year-old data for 2024. That's inaccurate. And then the final question once a year is, what are your goals this.
Year and how can I help you?
That's beautiful, man. And so if those are your four check-ins, you can have a meaningful, thoughtful, and that's when you don't get surprises because you're checking in so often that you can tell the pattern with which the relationship's going. Yeah. As opposed to like one day someone turns around after three years. I want a divorce. Totally.
Whereas what? Yeah.
Whereas I'm hoping if you're with someone who's thoughtful, if you're checking in, they.
Can at least give you signs. People would want to know in the last 10 years, I won't make it recent, but in the last 10 years of your relationship, what was a surprising response that Roddy gave you where you thought everything is fine, we're a great place or. I'm just living my life and everything's smooth where she said, actually, this is an area that I'd like to improve or us to take a different action on. Was there something in the last 10 years where she said in that awkward question where you're like, I'm crushing it in this relationship. She loves me. Everything's great. Like, I'm doing my thing.
I think it was more a change. It wasn't even in the conversation. We, because of visas and other things, ended up spending more time than we ever anticipated apart. a couple of years ago, and Rati was stuck in London. I was stuck in the US, and we didn't see each other for nearly six months, probably. And that was a surprise because we didn't anticipate that. Like, it wasn't intentional. It happened because of rules and all that kind of stuff. And it wasn't something we wanted at the time. Like, we weren't like, oh, yeah, we're busy. We'll take some, you know, it wasn't that. and spending that time apart was just a massive shock and surprise because we were at like our best before we ended up in this position. And I felt like that distance made us have to work so much harder because six months is a long time. And this is what I mean by the regular check-ins. It's what I mean by the constant communication. It's what we mean by these agreements. Like that was not, that was a surprise to any of our agreements. We would never have agreed to spend six months apart from each other. And sometimes things happen that you can't, you know, get around. And I think that that's when I said, like, when we come back, we need to make a-- it was more me saying it where I was like, We need to really make an effort to reconnect because you can't just assume that things are the same. That takes work.
Yeah. And I love having these conversations.
You, too, man.
I know this was about love and money, and we're gonna be doing another episode episode on the different rules that, that women should be living by.
Based on an old book.
Based on an old book.
Not mine.
And we're gonna, and we're gonna check and see if we think these rules live up to what women should be doing in, in modern dating and modern relationships. So I'm excited about that. But I love that I get nervous having these conversations. What are people gonna think? But that's what I think now.
Everyone's gonna be like, Jay would never He would make me sign a prenup. I'm like, I'm not, do you know what? I'm like one of the most romantic love in love people that exists. I've just become more realistic as I've coached people, as I've worked with people.
As I've seen- As if you've made money too.
Seen challenges, like you just, you start to see things.
That's the interesting thing too, you know, I've heard, I mean, yeah, you start to see things. And when you see a lot of people go through pain and like years of pain, that's what it is. When there's a divorce and there's years of pain and there's kids involved and there's money involved and then there's just sadness and hatred and it's like you almost see people beaten down. And you're like, how can we have awkward conversations beforehand to set ourselves up for more harmony and peace? Even if it doesn't work out, how can we make it a conscious uncoupling the best possible way to do that? Totally. And I think you gotta have that's another awkward therapy episode.
We're doing conscious uncoupling. We'll take a look at that.
Yeah, totally.
I think there's It's the book, yeah.
It's a book. I think there's conscious coupling, which people don't really talk about, and conscious uncoupling. I think we should do both. Talking about like how to enter relationship consciously and how to plan to exit a relationship consciously, which is the most unromantic thing. When you're 21, 24, you're broke and you're just like, I wanna be with you forever and I love you. It's not the sexy romantic thing to talk about, but I think there's gotta be a way to do it. which is romantic.
Totally.
And which is feeling elevated. And so that'll be a future conversation.
I'm excited, man.
My man. Let's do it. I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com/newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I wanna remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.
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