Master the Art of Setting Healthy Boundaries & Building Life-Long Relationships EP 1454

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We think that acceptance looks like everything will be better when in actuality it is. Seeing a person as they are. You can want something to be different until the end of time, but this.

Is the situation welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur, and each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. The Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid has a bold design, a spacious interior with 232 horsepower and a 12.3-inch panoramic display to keep the adventure going and fit with the way you live. And with SiriusXM every drive comes alive, bringing you closer to the music, the sports talk and podcasts that you love right in your vehicle or on the Sirius XM app. Every SiriusXM equipped Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid includes a three month trial so the experience begins the moment you drive. Learn more@kia.com Sportage Hybrid Kia Movement that inspires this message is brought to you by Apple Card It's a great time to apply for an Apple Card. You'll love earning unlimited daily cash on every purchase. That includes 3% daily cash when you buy the latest iPhone, AirPods and Apple Watch at Apple through this special referral offer. When you get a new Apple Card, you can earn bonus daily cash. To qualify, you must apply at Apple Co getdailycash Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch offer may not be available elsewhere. Terms and limitations apply. The School of Greatness is sponsored by Capital One. Nowadays most people subscribe to everything. Music, tv, even dog food. And it rocks. Until you have to manage it all, which is where Capital One comes in. Capital One credit card holders can easily track, block or cancel reoccurring charges right from the Capital One mobile app at no additional cost. With one sign in, you can manage all your subscriptions all in one place. Learn more@Capital1.com Subscriptions Terms and Conditions apply. Welcome to this special master class. We've brought some of the top experts in the world to help you unlock the power of your life through this specific theme today. It's going to be powerful. So let's go ahead and dive in. Why do people, it seems like people have a lot of dysfunction in families.

Because parents are human beings who have no clue what they're doing. Siblings are human beings who have no clue what they're doing. Aunties and uncles, human beings have no clue what they're doing. We have an expectation based on their role. We think, oh my gosh, once you become a mother, there's all of these things. Once you become a father, once you become an uncle, like you'll know how to communicate with kids. No, I don't know how to, you know, like so these things, these expectations, not that they're unreasonable, but the person can't, you know, they can't meet it. They don't grow up, they have their own, you know, demons they're fighting, they aren't emotionally mature, they're not reading a ton of self help books, they haven't been to therapy, they don't. So, so our expectation of people, sometimes they can't be met. And that's a tough pill to swallow, that although this person is a parent, they may not be nurturing, although this person is a sibling, they may not be supportive. Although this person is your grandparent, they may have another favorite. You know, like all of these things that happen in family. I think we think of dysfunction as abuse, neglect, but it's also, you know, when someone dies and everybody's fighting over an inheritance, it's also, you know, having issues with your in laws. It's also sabotaging your, your, your sister's wedding. It's also, it's so many things. And that's why I think people identify because, you know, so many people in the family, I mean, pick a person.

It'S like someone's messed up somewhere.

Yeah, yeah, somewhere. I mean, it's not the nuclear family, but gosh, those cousins, you know, it' it's somewhere.

Yeah, yeah. I love in your, your dedication, you say, we are the answer, not the people we can't control. How do we learn to self soothe in dysfunctional family relationships? Because one, you're talking about addressing, you know, as an adult, the parent or the person that maybe you caused upset or pain.

Right.

It's addressing it and having a conversation, writing a letter, and we may not get a good response. Hopefully we do, but we may not. How do we learn to self soothe and mend and heal even when the other person attacks us or blows up even more Acceptance. That's what I was.

Yeah, it's all about acceptance, but it's such a process. I was talking to a friend the other day who was talking about her, her relationship with a family member who isn't what she wants that person to be. And she said, I don't know if I accept her. I said, you do, because you don't invite her into spaces that you know she won't fit in. We think that acceptance looks like everything will be better when in actuality, it is seeing a person as they are and knowing that you are powerless to change it. Yeah, so this is, this is my mother. This is my mother and father. This is my sibling. You can want something to be different until the end of time, but this is the situation. Given the situation I have, what do I want to do about it? Often we want the other person to do something about it. The person who has exhibited, you know, all of these things. We're like, why don't you get sober? Why don't you start being more nurturing? You don't call me more often. You're not doing this. I had a game and you didn't. It's like there, the acceptance of that is. This person is whatever this thing is. How do I be in this relationship with them or choose not to be in this relationship with them? How do I create closeness? How do I create distance? What can I do to change this situation? Because we're often trying to change people who aren't interested in changing. They aren't going to therapy, they aren't reading these books. It's like you getting the enlightenment and being like, oh, they need to change. Now that I know this term for them, it's like they're a gaslighter. They must change. It's like they're not reading that book. You're reading the book.

And maybe they don't want to change.

They don't want to change. They're fine with their behavior. So what will you do when, you know, they continue to do these things.

Acceptance and boundaries is what it sounds like.

Right.

I remember for years I used to be kind of frustrated with my mom when I was, like, an adult after 21, let's say. Took me a while to become an adult, but I'd say after 21, right. I get frustrated with her because I felt like she kept treating me like a child. Right. And I didn't like that feeling, and I wanted her to change. And I don't know, 10, 15 years went by, she didn't change, and I expressed my frustrations and all these things didn't change.

Right.

She looked at me as her little baby, even though I was a grown man at the time. And it was frustrating and I had to learn to accept her. And it wasn't until maybe like five years ago where I fully had, like, acceptance of my mom. Like, this is who she is. It's not going to change. But I can create boundaries and, you know, make sure I set a boundary for myself so it doesn't affect me as much and just love her for who she is. And it's been a beautiful experience for me. I feel a lot more joy thinking about my mom, knowing that this is the way she is and it's okay as long as I put boundaries in place. So. But why do you think it's so hard for us to accept the people we love the most?

Because we would rather put the duty of doing the work on others.

In.

The situation you just described with your mother if she would have changed when you were 21. Oh, the easiness.

Much easier, right?

So much easier. But if you had to place a boundary, Ugh, the work you had to do. Oh, my gosh, we get so upset at people for making us. Why are they emailing me on vacation? Because you're responding. How do you stop responding? You know, the work that we have to do in our relationships with people, it is. It's almost like we get upset with them for making us do the work when really they're just being themselves.

Yes.

If you don't want to be treated like a child, how do you become more of an adult?

Create boundaries.

You create those boundaries. So when your mom is like, tell me about your girlfriend. You're like, I don't want to talk about it. And then your mom is like, oh, he doesn't have to tell me everything anymore. So it's you doing that work. Your mom can always ask and you can always place that boundary.

Exactly. Say, I don't want to talk about it right now, Mom. Let's talk about something else.

Yeah.

Or whatever.

And I need you to wash my clothes. I don't need you to figure out what I'm doing with my.

I don't.

You have to be the person to say that because your mom is operating in the capacity that she knows.

Absolutely. Yeah. That's beautiful. What else do you think people get wrong about family dynamics? Siblings, parents, kids. And what else do we need to know about this?

One of the things we get wrong is that if we are honest about what the relationship is, that we will lose our love for the person.

Can you give me an example?

If I say my mother was unkind, that means I don't love her. You know, that doesn't mean you don't love you don't love her. It just means she was unkind. Maybe sometimes, maybe all the time. I don't know. But you could still love people who do things to you or who cause you to feel a certain way. And sometimes we don't know that. We think if we say anything bad about someone, it means that we don't love them, that we're betraying them. And both of those things can exist. You know, when I find people talking about their parents, they will say all of these nice qualities because they're trying to make them not seem like a bad person. When we talk about our partners, we'll say, you know, I really love this person. They've been there for me. They always listen to me. And then, you know, like, we are trying to say, I really love them, and I don't want to say anything bad about them. And we don't have to protect the truth. We don't have to protect the person from everything that we feel about them. One thing we've been practicing in our house, I have two daughters, and they are at that age where they bicker all the time. And, oh, she's annoying. And I say, everyone in this house is annoying. You, your sister, your dad, the dog, the TV sometimes is too loud. This is normal in relationships. We're not going to always get it right. And if we have an expectation of perfection in a relationship, sometimes I'm going to say the wrong thing. And I want you to be able to. You know what? Sometimes you say the wrong thing. Sometimes you're unkind. Sometimes you annoy me. Sometimes that happens in relationships. And we should be able to talk about the totality of. Of the relationship, not just the good parts. And, you know, they're really amazing in these ways. But, you know, I felt neglected when that really hurt when you said, I wish you would have done more of. Those are also things we should say.

How does someone get someone to trust them or is it not about them at that stage and it's about the other person, their insecurities?

Well, it depends very much on the particulars of the situation, you know, So I don't know if there's a generic answer to that. I think that you can establish the ground rules explicitly, you know, and have a discussion about it. Are we going to lie to each other or not? Are we going to tell each other the truth to the degree that we can to make that an actual goal, to talk through the consequences of doing that and not doing it. And then I would also say whenever a hiccup occurs in the relationship, maybe you don't call it out at each hiccup, you know, because you have to have a certain amount of silent tolerance in any relationship to let small infractions go. But if they repeat, my rule is three times, and it's the rule that I share with my wife. If something happens three times that is causing emotional upset, anger, jealousy, disappointment, resentment, frustration, any of those things, anything that you don't want to experience and that you especially don't want to experience repeatedly, then you can call it out. And. And if you. If you have three examples, your case is much better made than if you just have one. And I would also say that when you call it out, you know, you could say, look, we were at a party the other night, and you were. It looked to me, I felt as if you were paying too much intense, intent attention to Dave. There was flirting going on there. That's what it looked like to me. There was some flirting going on there. And, you know, that made me uncomfortable. Well, you don't say, well, you were flirting. Stop doing it. You say, well, this is how it looked. This is what it looked like to me. And here was my response. And then you want to think, and maybe I'm a fool and blind and jealous and stupid and I'm misinterpreting. Or maybe it was a harmless flirtation of the sort that people will engage in because it adds a little bit of spice to a social interaction. You want to find out, like, it. It's really convenient if it's the other person's fault, except then you're laden with living with that person, so it really doesn't help you anyways. But it's convenient because then they have to change. But you've got to think about this over the long run. You're going to be interacting with this person on a minute by minute basis for decades. If you're the idiot and that's causing trouble, then you should find out. So you want to say, well, look, this is what I saw. What's your explanation of what's going on? And then they'll offer you their viewpoint and hopefully they'll do the same thing. They'll think, well, this is my intent, and maybe they have to go think about it, but this is my intent and this is what I saw. And I think you're being oversensitive in that situation. And you peel back the explanations layer by layer until you both agree on what happened and more importantly, on what you're going to do about it in the future. And that's really hard. And especially if there is something going on that's not straight, because that will require quite a bit of digging. It'll probably result in anger and tears and a fight, and that's very unpleasant. It's. It's easier in the short term to avoid that, but hopefully the consequence of that is you don't have to have that fight again, right? You have to come to a negotiated agreement about, about that situation, and you have to pay attention to your own uncomfortable, negative emotions in order to manage that and not. And not pretend that everything's all right or that you're nicer than you are, or that you're less jealous than you are or. Or less blind or. See, one of the things I learned from Carl Jung, the psychoanalyst, about marriage was that there is a reason marriage was a vow. Like, the vow is that you stick together. Okay, so now imagine that's a vow, okay? You do not get to leave, period. Okay, so what does that mean? Well, on the upside, it means that you don't have to be alone. It means that your family will have continuity over decades. It means that the narrative of your life won't be fragmented and broken by divorce or sequential divorce. It means that your children can grow up and maybe have their children within a continuing family. It means that your children will be able to maintain relationships with the grandparents on both sides and, and the cousins, like it's a big deal to maintain that. There's huge advantages in it. It means that you'll have someone there when you're not well, and so will your partner. And it'll mean that you have someone to share all of the positive things of life with. So there's huge advantages to it. Okay, so why does it have to be a vow? Well, I don't think you can tell the truth to someone who can run away. Because if you tell the truth to someone and they can run away, then they'll run away. Right? Right. Because you're a mess, man. And not just because of your own inadequacies, but because human beings are so complicated and have such dark corners and have had unresolved problems in their life sometimes that stem back generations and are twisted and bent in all sorts of ways. And you. You can't re. It's very, very difficult to reveal that, except to someone who can't run away. Now that, that. You know, I'm not saying that people should never separate. I am saying, though, that it's better not to if you can manage it. But then the other thing, too, is if you can't run away, then you're motivated in a different way. It's like, I'm stuck with this woman and she's stuck with me. And unless we want to have this same fight over and over and over for the next who knows how long, why don't we straighten it out and then we can put it behind us? See, the vow gives you a kind of desperation. That is another motivation to actually solve the problems. And if you've got a way out, you can always stay hidden. You can guard yourself, you can protect yourself and even protect that part of yourself that thinks that it can leave if things get too bad. Now, the problem with that, in my estimation, is, is that you're going to drag your stupidity into the next relationship.

Right. Always do. Right.

Well, generally speaking. Right. And so now you can get very. You can. You can under unfortunate circumstances. You can get tangled up with someone who's not playing a straight game with you and won't and it's just impossible. But I'm not talking about the limit cases, you know, I'm talking about the average case, the average amount of unhappiness and trouble. It's still plenty. And then the. Sorry, just one more thing I'd add to that. You also have to, in some sense, shake the illusion that the other person is somehow not you. You're so tied up with them that there's no difference between you and them in some sense, is that what's good for her is going to be good for you and vice versa. One of the things we try to do to the two of us is we try to say yes to each other.

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Along with that, which is, well, I'm going to say yes to you, but that sort of means that you shouldn't ask me unreasonable, you shouldn't make unreasonable demands. I'll say yes as much as I possibly can and then you'll do that in return and then we get yes out of the deal instead of no. That's also a huge plus.

What do you think are the boundaries that people fail to set the most in these relationships that don't work and that continue not to work over time? What do we fail to set once we realize there's massive breakdowns?

Yeah, I mean, I think, and this is the real challenge is that when you're in a relationship breakdown or things aren't going well. And I hear stories like this from thousands of people all the time, right? Where it's like I the in heterosexual relationships, the wife is doing all of the household management and all of the childcare and the, you know, expectations are only placed on her. And it's like she is the default for everything. And she has to ask her, her husband to help and pitch in and babysit his own kids. And she comes to me and says, like, I don't know what to do in this situation. The challenging thing is that at that point you can't solve that with a simple boundary.

Right.

The boundary has to be like, I am going to go to therapy myself to explore what my options are. Because at this point, the way this relationship is working is not working for me.

Right.

But if we go back to like some of the things we've talked about even earlier on in a relationship, I think setting a boundary, like right away in a relationship, immediately, even before you start dating, can be a super good litmus test for how well you can communicate. So it's like we're talking about going on a first date and it's like, oh, by the way, I don't drink so I'd love to meet you for happy hour. I'll just have like a tea and see if there's pressure, see if that is weird. See if they give you like pushback on that or you can talk about, you know, before you get intimate. Like, by the way, you know, this is what I said to my husband. Like, by the way, you're wearing a condom. And until we both get STD tested and like swap tests, that's going to continue. And like, if that isn't respected, that's an immediate relationship ender for me. Like, that's it. Right. So I think it can be helpful early on to set boundaries in relationships just to see how you discuss them, how you each view them. Do they see it as selfish and if so, can you have that conversation? Do they push back? How do they handle when you navigate that pushback? I think that can be really important.

What about with children? You know, as a parent, I don't have kids yet, so I can't relate to that. I can relate to my experience as a kid being obnoxious to my parents and probably driving them crazy and understanding that it's challenging for parents. How do healthy conscious parents create healthy boundaries with kids without neglecting their kids emotions, feelings and needs?

Yeah, I think the two are definitely not mutually exclusive. So I think the first thing that you can do as parents is model healthy boundaries for your kids. So it is me, you know, saying to my husband, like, hey, I need a half an hour of alone time. I'm going to go to my room. I'll come back out, you know, after I'm feeling a little bit more refreshed. Like when my son watches us do that, he recognizes that, like in this family it's okay to say no, that people don't get mad when you say no, that mom's taking responsibility for her own feelings. So we've been modeling healthy boundaries. But I've had boundaries with my son from the very earliest age and I have set boundaries on his behalf. So one of the earliest boundaries I set with him or for him was when you visit grandma or grandpa or Nana and Pop Pop and or Auntie Kelly and you don't see them very often. You don't have to hug or kiss if you don't want to. We have to be polite and say goodbye and say thank you. But you can hug, you can kiss, you can wave, you can fist bump, you can make a funny face, you can, you know, high five whatever you want, but you don't have to hug or kiss. If you don't want to. And so we had this, like, issue once with my mom where she was like, I really want to hug. Like, I haven't seen him in such a long time. I only see him a few times a year. And I'm like, I get it, but he doesn't want to hug you, and, like, you need to respect that. And she did, and I recognized that it was disappointing for her. But also what I taught my son was that you have agency, and if you don't want to hug, you don't have to. And so now, you know, I'll come sit next to him on the couch when he's nine, and I'll be like, hey, do you want to watch naked and afraid and, like, do a little snuggle? And he'll be like, I'd love to watch the show, but I don't want to snuggle.

That's fine.

Yeah, that's good.

Wow.

So we've raised him in the culture of boundaries, and he feels now comfortable setting boundaries with me. And he, you know, boundaries really create a sense of safety for kids. They do, because they, you know, realize that the adults in their household are taking responsibility for their own feelings. That boundaries are not about pushing other people away. They're about, you know, creating that sense of, like, family in a way that works for everybody. And I think they feel really safe to my kid.

And what are the biggest boundaries you've had to create for yourself? Healthy boundaries for you individually, separate from family and loved ones.

And zillions. I think boundaries with yourself are so incredibly powerful because they only rely on one person to hold them, and. And you can immediately reclaim your time, your energy, your capacity, your mental health, your physical space and sense of safety. Like, that's an immediate benefit from you setting one boundary with yourself. The challenging thing is that if you don't keep that boundary, like, what's gonna happen, right? If you say to yourself, I'm not gonna check my phone in the morning before I do my morning routine, which is one of my most beloved boundaries and the one that I've set for many, many years and the one that I still hold to, if I do roll over and check my phone before I go to the gym and do my meditation, like, nobody's going to jump out of the closet and slap the phone out of my hand. So.

But you're gonna know.

I will know. And what's gonna happen is that there will be a massive ripple effect to future Melissa.

Really?

I think about future me all the time.

Tell Me more.

What is the decision that I'm making right now and how is it gonna impact future Melissa? Because current Melissa is going to be so happy. Happy to just like, stay up late and not start her bedtime routine and just do like one more, you know, show on Netflix. But what will this mean for future Melissa? She's going to be really mad at herself because she didn't get to bed on time. And then she's going to fall asleep late, and then she's probably not going to have as good a night's sleep. And then when she wakes up tomorrow, she's not going to be pumped for the gym and she might even skip it because she's going to be tired if she skips the gym before she does this interview. She was like, not going to be a good guest because she won't feel grounded and centered. Like, when I play it out that way, it makes it a lot easier for me to be like, go to bed. Because future Melissa will benefit. So I have boundaries with myself where I'm not checking my phone in the morning before I do my morning routine, not checking my phone in, like the half hour before bedtime, so I'm not checking Twitter one more time or email one more time. I have really strong boundaries. Like when I'm out of office, I am out of office. Unless something is on fire, you do not call or text me. And I will not be checking text messages or emails. So, you know, I think I set boundaries with myself pretty often because I know that they can be like an instant sense. They can give me an instant sense of freedom and nobody else has to even worry about it.

What's the boundary you set in the last two years for yourself that has given you the most benefit?

I think I've become more rigorous about what I say yes to in terms of work opportunities.

Good.

It's hard as an entrepreneur not to feel like you have to or should say yes to everything. And like, if I don't say yes to this, maybe they won't ask me again. Or who knows what this, like, lunch or coffee could turn into. But I think, I don't know if we talked about this, but like, four years ago I got a concussion. I'm still going through post concussion symptoms that are triggered by air travel. Events like this, speaking events in person events, like any kind of structure stressor can set my concussion symptoms off. And that forced me to become more rigorous about what I say yes to. So now again, I kind of have this automatic pause before I say yes to anything. Even something that I think I'm super excited about. It's like, quick pause. Can you work this into your schedule? Will you have capacity to do this? What else is this going to push off your plate and is that acceptable to you? What are the things you're going to have to make up when you get back home? And then once I think about that, I either say yes or no. And if I say no, it's because again, I know I'm serving future me. I can be disappointed, but I can also be happy that I've checked in with my own needs. So that I think I've really dialed in on the last couple years. And I think it's made a big difference in my overall capacity.

Wow.

Yeah.

What boundary are you to set for yourself next year that you haven't done yet?

I don't know. I'm not a New Year's resolution person. I tend to just take on these like, self improvement things. Things as I stumble. Yeah. Like I started my cold shower experiment like in February two years ago, just randomly. So I'm not a New Year's resolution person. And there is no one size fits all for boundaries. I won't know what my needs are next year until I get to next year. And I'm in the moment and I go, you know, my context has changed, my capacity has changed, my goals have changed. Do I still. I'm always reevaluating. Do I still need a boundary here? And if so, is this the boundary that I need? Because they should be flexible and I shouldn't keep a limit in place that no longer serves me.

Yeah.

So. So I don't know. Ask me next year.

What do you see? Since you've been working through this book for a while now, you've heard a lot of conversations from people single in relationships, family challenges, different things. What do you see that society needs in general to create better and healthier boundaries around?

Welcome to my favorite TED Talk.

It's just with social media, with work, with, you know, all the, the political stuff, just what, what do people need in general moving into next year, you think?

I mean, we need honestly so much of the root of why boundaries feels like such an icky subject to so many people. And I will say, especially women, especially moms, is because we have been conditioned by the patriarchy and stereotypically rigid gender roles and toxic masculinity which comes from the patriarchy and religious influences and diet, culture and trauma and the media. We have been conditioned for my entire life. And even going back further than that, to not have needs. To not have needs, to be selfless. Especially as a mom, we are praised the most when we are putting everyone else's needs and feelings and wants and desires above our own. Like we're not even on our own list. And if we're on the list, we're at the very bottom. And then when we do have a need and we speak it, we either hint about it cause we've been told we can't be direct and then we're disappointed that people aren't reading our minds or we're direct about it and we're told that we're selfish or we're called a or any of those other monikers. So we have been conditioned to not have boundaries societally. And I think there's a lot of unlearning that we all have to do around what it means to have needs and to have those needs feel worthy. And the fact that like you, of, you know, your own volition are valuable enough to advocate for those needs and then to remember that we have the power to advocate for those needs in a way that doesn't involve the other person. If I set a boundary with you, it can't be dependent on what you choose to do. The boundary I set has to depend on me. The actions that I am willing to take in our relationship to keep myself safe and healthy.

Give me an example around that.

We're in an argument and it starts to get really, really heated and I say to you, please don't speak to me like that. It's really making me feel unsafe. I don't like it when you use those words. It's getting personal and we're not focusing on the subject at hand. And you are really mad and really triggered and you kind of keep going with that. Right? I can't depend on you to change your communication style. The only thing I can do is say I won't stay in this argument if this is how we're going to continue to talk about it. I'm going to take a 10 minute break. After 10 minutes, I'll come back to see if you're ready. So I can't depend on you. If I go to my family's house and they're talking about politics and we don't agree with politics, I can say, could we change the subject please? And if they say no, then I have to enact my boundary, which is okay, I'm gonna go for a walk.

Yeah, Remove yourself.

I'm leave the table. Yeah. So all of that to say we have a lot of unlearning to do about what it means to have needs and to advocate for those needs and to speak clearly and what that means as a woman to speak clearly and directly versus what historically it's meant for a man to speak clearly and directly. Right. A man says it and he's decisive. A woman says it and she's aggressive. There's a lot of unlearning that we all have to do, I think before we can get to the point where we don't automatically think of boundaries as selfish or controlling or manipulative.

What I'm hearing you say is the boundary doesn't rely on another person's reaction or if they agree to it or not. It relies on you.

Yes.

Removing yourself in a conscious way from the situation.

Yes.

Independent of how they show up.

Correct. Now, I'm initially going to phrase most of my boundaries as a request.

Yes.

Right. Because you didn't know I had a limit. So I'm going to say to you, hey, I need. I could use a half hour of alone time. Would you mind if I go in my room? Or, you know, would you mind taking the dog for a walk or something? Right. And if you say no, then my boundary is to remove myself. So I think that's another common misconception, is that, you know, boundaries aren't about telling other people what to do or controlling other people. I may phrase my request in that way as an invitation to meet me in my limit, but I always have a backup plan.

What are the challenges that come up over and over that you see?

So there's always three questions, right? What's a thriving relationship?

A thriving one?

Yeah. What can go wrong and how do you fix it? Okay, so you started with the middle question.

What goes wrong?

I think there's a number of things in a relationship that, that. That become the. The kind of cornerstones of the demise. Okay. And I'm not going to list them in order, but they all are part of each other. Indifference and contempt and neglect and violence are probably the four most important. I'm not talking about big violence. Microaggressions are plenty. Indifference, when you start to feel like the other person fundamentally is not really caring about you anymore, or you don't care about them, what they feel, what they think, who they are, what they're about.

Just don't care. You've lost interest.

But it's more than losing of interest. It's also, when you are doing different, you degrade the other person. They're less important to you. They don't Matter. And ultimately what we feel in relationships is that we matter. That is the essential reason for connecting to people, is that we are creatures of meaning. I matter to you. I'm someone. You care about me, you want my well being, you're proud of me, you want good feeling, infamy, you're benevolent, all of that. When you are indifferent, the whole thing goes. And then you start to this. That coldness that creeps in, that sense of estrangement, that complete disconnect that. The second one is neglect. Neglect. When people just basically take each other for granted. You know, they take more care of their car than of their partner, their dog or their dog, anybody, anything, their yard, anything, anything. Gets attendance, their business, their business for sure. Their business for sure. You know, everything gets priority. Everything gets reviewed, evaluated, attended to 360s, you name it. You know, new input. My God, it's like people have this idea that they put it all in when they were dating and then once they seal the knot, it's like as if they tied the knot. It's like now they don't have to do squat anymore. And they go into this kind of complete sense of complacency and laziness. It's an amazing thing. They think this thing is just going to live on its own, right? Like a cactus.

Right.

Violence, violence, the abuse, the level of, of disrespect. I mean, most people talk nicer to anybody else than their partner when a relationship degrades. Because you can't get away with it. Because you can't get away with it. Because if you talk like this at work, you're gone. Because if you talk like this with the police, you're gone. Because if you talk like this on the street, you're being punched. But with your partner, you have that sense that they're going to be there anyway. They're just going to take it because it's family. And family is this kind of. This thing that doesn't dissolve so easily. So you can just lash out at them and talk to them with a tone and a dismissal. That is phenomenal. So that kind of violence, I'm not talking physical violence and all the other big, big things.

You're talking about aggression or resentment or all of that.

Yeah, all of that.

You know, passive aggressiveness, all those things.

Yeah, all of that. And then, and then contempt, I think, is the top one. The contempt is the killer of them all. Because in, in the contempt there is a real. There's the degradation of the. Is that that complete. This. You're nothing. You're nothing. I can kill you with that one gaze, that one eyebrow that goes up that. You know stuff. Do you. Who do you think you are? What are. And that's it, you're done. You're done.

So how do we even get to this place of these.

These places after having been so in love and so romantic? Right.

Is desire reflect that? Or if we're not desiring the person anymore, then we start to feel one of those categories? Or does that not play into.

Look, the truth is this. There's only two relationships that resemble each other. The one you have with your parents or the people who raise you, and the one you have with the people you fall in love with. People can sit in my office all the time and say, I have this with no one else. I don't have this with anybody at work. Nobody among my friends ever thinks like that. You're the only one who speaks like this or thinks this about me or with whom I do this. No, you're the only one. And now we go back in history and I'm sorry to be the psychologist, but that's really. It is the place where we often learned about closeness, trust, loyalty, commitment, sharing, taking, receiving, asking, all these essential verbs of relationships. We learned that at home.

We also learned jealousy and all the.

Possessiveness, vengeance, you name them. The beauty and the not beauty.

Yeah. We saw it all as children, right? We saw the fights, we saw the love. We saw the, you know, we saw.

The coldness, the lack of intimacy.

The intimacy, yes.

And we bring that with us. And we often promise ourselves, I'll never be this one. I'll never be this way. I'll never talk like this.

I'll.

You know. And we find ourselves often much closer to the apple.

And then resenting ourselves to the tree, we resent ourselves. We're like, how did we do that? Why did we get to this place?

And then we feel ashamed about it. And since we don't like to feel ashamed about it, we hide it. And one of the way we hide it is we blame the partner. That's just one of the ways. There's a lot. We are very resourceful in not owning our shit.

Right.

Exactly. Exactly. Wow. Okay. And where does sex play into all this and desire?

So, I mean, one of the fascinating things for me in looking at sexuality is that it's probably one of the dimensions of relationship that has changed the most in a very, very short amount of time. For most of history and in still the majority of the world, sex is for procreation. Sex is A marital duty on the part of the woman. Nobody cares, particularly if she likes it and how she feels and if she wants it. And men have the privilege to go and find sex elsewhere in a very short amount of time. We're talking 60 years. We have contraception, which is the liberation of women for the first time. To free sex from reproduction, from mortality, from death, in pregnancy and in childbirth. Sorry, all of that. And for the first time, sexuality moves from just biology and a condition to a part of our identity and a lifestyle.

In 60 years.

In 60 years. The women's movement, which goes after the abuses of power. The gay movement, which introduces the concept of identity to sexuality. The fact that sex is for connection and pleasure. The fact that for the first time we have sex before marriage and many times a lot. We used to marry and have sex for the first time. Now we marry and we stop having sex with others.

Okay?

Monogamy used to be one person for life. Now monogamy is one person at a time. And people go around telling you, I'm monogamous in all my relationships and it makes perfect sense to them. Okay? All of that in a very short amount of time. The fact that I choose you to marry or to live together doesn't matter. Commitment, because I'm attracted to you, because you give me butterflies in my stomach. And the fact that I think that if I don't have these butterflies anymore, maybe I don't love you anymore. And the fact that sexuality in long term relationships is rooted in wanting only desire. I feel like it. I want to not. I have to not. We want many kids. After two kids, the only reason to continue doing it with you is because we feel like it.

Right?

It's fun, it's pleasurable, we connect, it feels good, it rounds up, deepens our relationship, the whole thing. That's it. And hopefully it's at the same time and for each other.

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Continues, but it's not always at home.

Right? Exactly.

So this is an amazing revolution sex.

That is confusing all of us.

And how do we sustain it? So that's why I became fascinated in the nature of erotic desire. And how do we sustain desire? Because. Because it is the first time ever that we have a grand experiment of the humankind where we want sex with one person in the long haul that is fun and connected and intimate and playful. And we live twice as long. Go figure, right?

Exactly. For 60 years you're going to be with them or whatever it is.

It's an amazing ideal.

So how do we navigate this? If we're going to choose one partner and be with them until, you know, we're both gone, how do we navigate the challenge of keeping the desire continuously?

I think the both men and women.

Because the woman probably sees other men who are attracted to her and you know, vice versa. So it's like, how do both parties do this?

Look, we know that women get bored with monogamy much sooner than men.

Wow.

Is this a factor?

It's research.

Okay.

That's not just fact. That is man's desire in long term relationship goes down gradually. He actually is much more able to remain interested and maybe just because he's interested in the experience itself and he has a partner there. Women's desire post marriage.

Wow.

And it's always been translated as well, that's because women care less about sex rather than. It's because women care less about the sex that they can have in their committed relationships, which is often not interesting enough for them. And it often has to do with the fact that the story, the character, the plot is not. It's not seductive. The romance, which is an essential ingredient of turn on for the woman, often disappears in the long term relationship. It's like people look at each other at the end of the day and you want to fool around. You want to do it. You're up for it tonight. Now this is really not. This is not very much of a turn on for most women. And the idea that foreplay often starts at the end of the previous orgasm, you know, and not five minutes before the real thing.

Right.

Which for her is not the real thing. The whole. The real thing is everything else.

So it's essentially the game. Yes, it's creating a game.

Seduction. It's a plot, it's a coming close. It's a team mystery. It's what animals call pacing. It's that I come to you, but I don't overwhelm you. I come just a little bit so that you can come a little bit toward me. And then I don't immediately answer. I actually go back a little bit too. Have you ever seen animals? They do this kind of pacing and it is an essential playful ingredient of seduction and excitement. So women's desire plummets. But we interpret it as women are less interested in sex rather than women are interested in probably just about the same kind of things that many men are. But women have always known what to choose. Shoes above what turns them on, which was what gives them stability and security.

Family, someone to protect. Be there. Right.

So what people do. Look, this is. We want one partner today to give us everything that involves stability and security and everything that involves playfulness and mystery. Okay. That's the grand ideal. Okay. I want to be cozy with you and I want to have an edge and I want you to surprise me and I want you to be familiar and I want you to give me continuity and I want you to give me novelty. That's it. As if it's a right. And no Victoria's Secret is going to solve that.

Yeah, right.

So then it becomes how. What is desire? Desire is to own the wanting. If you ask people a question that goes like this, I turn myself off when. I turn myself off by not. You turn me off when. And what turns me off is you're gonna hear, I turn myself off when I do emails, when I spend too much time on the phone, when I overeat, when I don't exercise, when I have bad, bad days at work, when I don't feel confident, when I numb myself, when I feel dead, when I don't feel thriving, when I'm not alive. You will really hear that it has very little to do with sex. And when you ask people, I turn myself up on when or by I awaken my desires, not you turn me on when and what turns me on is. Which is I. E. You're responsible for my wanting. What people will talk to you about is when I'm in nature, when I'm connected with my friends, when I get to do my sports, when I play music, when I listen to music. It's stuff that gives me pleasure, that is alive, that is vibrant, that is vital, that is erotic in the form full sense of the word as life force. And from that place, people remain interested in having sex with somebody else for the long haul, not because they've scratched their arms for two seconds.

Right? Right.

It's I feel good about myself. The biggest turn on is confidence.

Right?

Confidence. You ask people, when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner? Every description has to do with when they're in their element, when they're on stage, when they're doing their sport, when they are radiant, when they are in their studio, on the piano, on the horse, you name it. It's when they are in their element, that is, they don't need me to take care of them.

They're not depressed and down, lonely and.

Sad, they're not needy, they don't need me. Because desire is about wanting you. Love is also about needing you. Caretaking is a very powerful experience in love and it is a very powerful anti aphrodisiac.

So how do you experience love and desire at the same time?

You calibrate it.

So sometimes you're.

It's the same as when you walk, you have to move from one foot to the other. A balance is not about staying on one side. A balance is the ability to see. Right now we don't need caretaking. We can be mischievous of us. We can be naughty, we can be playful, we can break our own rules. We can stay home and not go to work at 8 o'.

Clock. Right?

And now we are in a playful zone. Now we are feeling that we are bringing our own little transgressions home. We are alive. We're not just being dutiful, responsible, good citizens.

Right?

It's that it's very small. You know, I always think when I go and I see people at lunch and you see them talking and they're well dressed and they're awake and all I see who is here with their partner. Because you can see them, they're engaged, they're giving the best of themselves. That's erotic. No, the majority are not there with their partner. They're there with their friends, with their colleagues. Their partner is going to get the leftover when they come home at night. Sorry, you know what? Forget the night date. Meet at lunch. When you actually have energy, you know, when you. And, and in the middle of the day like that, when you're awake, when you have something to offer. It's a very small thing, but they don't do it. They don't do it. And you say, why not? Why not? Why don't you stay an hour extra at home in the morning? And not just. Because when you have a headache and just say, this matters to me. All in all, you know, committed sex is premeditated sex. It's not just gonna happen because whatever is gonna just happen already has. So you're gonna make it happen because you say, we matter, we're important, let's do this, let's spend. Doesn't mean if you're going to make love or have sex, it just means we're going to take this hour and there's nothing else that matters in this moment but just you and I to be together, to check in and then we'll see what unfolds. That's the erotic space in which sex may happen. Probably will, doesn't have to, but it is the place from which it is much more likely to emerge. But people don't do that. They do the responsibility. That's the love. Right. The citizen, the commitment, the caretaker, the burdens, the safe. And then they say, I'm bored. I would be too.

Oh, exactly. There's no mystery, there's no risk taking. Right, Exactly.

Yeah.

There's no risk taking. That's the word. If you want desire, it's risk. And the risk is an emotional risk. It's not about sexy risks. It's really a risk on the emotional front is that I bring something else to you differently from. Differently from the way I typically present myself. You know, how can I do this? What can I do today that will be different from the ways that I've done it until now? How can I do something that I think would actually improve our relationship? Me. Right. Not something that I want or that you want, but that I think would be actually good for us, that third entity, the us. Right. And you check every time. You know, how often do you just go on the tried and trodden, as in, you know, it works. Sex that just works for most people is really not interesting enough.

Right. So.

Because what does it mean? It works generally.

Right. What about the people listening are saying, man, that sounds like a lot of work, that every day you have to change, do something different and unique and be.

Not every day, not every day, not every day. But what you can do every day is just a quick check with yourself. You know, is there something that I should notice? Is there something that I can be thankful for? Is there a little note that I could write? Is there, you know, just a way that I can show up? It's small. It's really small. Here's the thing. There is work and then there is the creative work. You know, I'm talking about a level that is creative and that elevates you and that actually gives you, you feel taller. You just feel like you're engaged. You feel awake. Rather than this, this is the other seated position. It's comfortable, it's great. But nothing happens here.

Sure.

This, this is alert. Here is the essential word, is curiosity. When you're curious, you lean forward and you watch. You're open to the mysteries of life. This is, please don't bother me with anything because I don't want any stimulation. I've had my share, you know, and this is the position that most people have at home. So when people say it's too much work, I basically say, look, if I was to say this, in your business, would you say, this is too much work?

Right.

Or you would say, that's very good advice. This is high rate consulting fees. It's like, excuse me, but you don't think for a minute that your business would thrive if you let it languish like that. Never. You have a reward system. You have incentives, bonuses. You have bonuses. But There is no incentivized system is in the, in the private domain. So people just think, why bother?

Right?

And that's the difference is that the ones who have good relationships are the ones who created their own internal incentiviz. Incentivized system.

What are some of those incentive systems that you've seen over time that really work or are effective for long term relationships?

I would say the first thing is almost one of the first things that our parents teach you. Please and thank you. Do you know how many people stop thanking their partners? Thank you. Thank you for doing this for me. Thank you for picking up the shirts. Thank you for, you know, making you feel appreciated. Yes. Appreciation. Appreciation is huge. Gratitude, acknowledgment of the presence of the other in your life. Not did you do this? Did you call, did you pick up, do this? You know, half the time. Expectations, expectations, of course, you know, expectations is often a resentment in the make. With the expectation comes the fear of it's not good. Thank person. First of all. And because it also makes it feel like this is not a given. Nobody owes you squat, you're not owed anything, you're not that important. You're actually quite replaceable. And with the divorce rate that we.

Have, what's the rate at right now?

Dropped 50 on first and 65 on second.

65 on second. Wow.

It's not good, right? It's really, you know, it cost a lot of money. It's not good for the health. I mean, it's just like, you know, it's not good for the jobs. It's, it's just, it's like, okay, now you could say maybe people should marry, but it doesn't matter if it's marriage legally or. The idea is that then we can do better, we can do better. In general, I really think that the quality of our lives depends on the quality of our relationships. I mean, nobody's going to write, you.

Know.

You worked 60, 70, 80, 90 hours a week and you know, no, they're going to say he was there for people when they needed to. He was there at every game, he was there at the party. He's the guy who, when you were in his presence, he had charisma. Not because he could stand in front of a huge crowd, but he had charisma. Because when I was in his presence, he made me feel special. It's a different charisma. So appreciation, gratitude, thank you. Little things to go out of your way rather than just to do the minimum. A lot of people start to do the Bare minimum, just so that they can't be scolded.

Right?

Go an extra thing on occasion. Just do something for the other person just because it matters to them. Even if you couldn't care less, right? Rather than it's not important to me, I don't need this, or I don't care about this. Give each other a lot of individual space. Not everything needs to be shared. People have different passions, different interests, different friends, and they need those separate spaces to exist. Admiration, I think, is huge because admiration is also that you kind of really see the otherness of the other person. Don't try to make your partner into one person for everything. There is no such a person. Find multiple sources of connection, of intimacy, of friendship, so that you can have a group of people support you and don't have one person who has to be there for you for everything. Especially when you're in the dumpster.

We used to have a village of people to do that. Now we just expect one person to be the village, right?

Yes, yes, yes. One person for the whole village. That. That is. That is a unique. And then we're upset when they don't fulfill the mandate.

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