Podcast

There are two big things happening at one time that I've never done before. I'm going on a book tour for my new book, Make Money Easy, and I'm doing a podcast tour at the same time. It is going to be big, and I'm going to seven cities in 10 days. Get your friends, get your family, bring everyone you know to these cities. I'm coming to Austin, Texas, New York, Boston, then we're going to Los Angeles, San Diego and San Francisco. Make sure to get your tickets right now. Go to lewishouse.com/tour. Again, bring everyone you know. If you're looking to create more financial freedom and abundance in your life, and you wanna see a massive guest live on the School of Greatness Show, get your tickets. I can't wait to see you there. If someone wasn't raised around the language money and they weren't in an environment or a household that spoke about it in a good way. Maybe they said money, you know, rich people are mean or bad people or their parents always got angry when they saw someone who had money on TV and associated wealth with a bad person.

Yes.

How do they break that mindset that not all wealthy people are bad people?

Yeah.

Well, challenge that belief, right? The way that we change our thinking is to challenge those beliefs. So like, literally write down the thing that you believe and then, you know, write down all the evidence that you can collect that tells you the opposite. Like, that's how we change our mindset, right? You know, so if I'm telling myself I'm not smart, I can collect all the evidence. Well, I graduated from law school. I graduated from undergrad, summa cum laude, right? Like, actually, there's evidence that I am smart. You know what I mean? Let me point that out.

So.

I think it's that-- so it's being a lawyer of your life. Yeah.

Of that belief system.

Exactly.

Which is something you understand. Collect evidence to prove what you want to believe, right? And see if you can find out that it's true. Maybe it won't be, but you probably will find that it is. Because a lot of our thinking, it's just like, it's just something-- it's a thought that was planted there in childhood or from whatever interactions we had that are memorable moment that are kind of stuck, right? And it's creating this, like, this neural pathway that we just keep walking every day, we just keep saying that to ourselves. And so the way we create a new pathway is we got to start digging that path, right, to go a different direction. And the way you dig that path is start collecting evidence of the opposite. So look for examples of wealthy people who aren't, you know, trash humans, right? I hope that I'm an example, right?

Yeah.

And that there are plenty of others out there. So, you know, try to challenge those, you know, just, and I think it's just societal views. It's things that we tell ourselves, I don't know why, maybe to make ourselves feel better for not trying to go after what we want. I don't know why we do it, but we do it and I think we can change it. And I also think there's a different pathway, right? Like, I think there are issues that we experience as people of color, as queer people, as people living with a disability or chronic illness that other people don't have to deal with. And so, We might get advice that's like, oh, just do these steps. It's so easy, right? When it's like, oh, but we're dealing with, I gotta take care of my mother as well. Like, when I make it, I also have to take care of all the family members who didn't make it, right? Who need help now that they're approaching retirement, right? Like, there's issues that we have that typically straight white guys don't have, right? And so that's why I focus on this audience.

And it's also just who is attracted.

To my work as well.

Right.

I think it's to know your worth in general. And that's applied to everything in life, like know your worth with your friends, with your family, in your partnership, in your relationship.

Exactly.

Don't sell yourself short in any area of your life. And you've got to learn to believe in yourself to do that, which goes back to step one for you. Exactly.

Surround yourself with people who've done it and then learn to believe in yourself. Exactly. And that's what I was getting at is the worthiness and the confidence. I think sometimes when, you know, when like there is probably not a black woman in America that hasn't worked in a workplace where she felt undervalued. And when you do that for a couple of years, you start to believe that your value is less. And so I think that it's important that we have confidence, it's important that we ask for the money, right? When we put ourselves out there, when we create work that we charge for it, right? And demand that people recognize our value. What if someone doesn't wanna pay it? They say, okay, I recognize the value.

But that's not the value I'm willing to pay for, 'cause I don't want that value, or it's not a need in my business, or whatever it might be.

So goodbye to that person. And find that next. And find that next. Exactly, find who your audience is. and I think, you know, you gotta have you gotta put it out there to get those knows to be like, oh, these are my people. Let me actually write my copy or present my offer in a way that makes them go away.

Exactly.

And only attracts the people that are really my people, right?

That makes sense. Yeah. And how does someone learn to feel worthy when they're broke?

Yes. Well, you have to recognize that you are inherently worthy. I was just as valuable as I am today, you know, 15 years ago.

How do you believe that?

20 years ago, when in the bank.

Account, and the relationship accounts don't show that value.

Yes. Well, I think, again, it's environment. Starting to spend time with people who have confidence and believed in themselves and starting to, and what they saw in me, right? Like realizing what other people see in me that I don't see in myself. And you need that reflection back. And that's why you gotta surround yourself. I mean, I have to tell you, like, I've been, spending time in LA this week with, you know, Black women entrepreneurs that I talk to on Twitter all the time. And like, listen, the way that they.

Will hype you up, you know?

You got this, girl.

Exactly. Let's go. We hype each other up. And that's so important. You need that. And I've had that since I was a kid. Like, I had friends who would hype me up, you know? So I think we need that in our lives and we gotta put ourselves out there, be a friend first, right? And then you'll find that squad and you'll start to create that community around yourself. And then there's no way you can't believe it when you're surrounded by people who are constantly reflecting it back to you.

I love that approach of surrounding yourself with people that will hype you up or that inspire you, that have already done that. And I've also heard people say, when I'm in those rooms, I feel like an imposter.

Yes.

I feel like all these incredible women, if I was a woman in these rooms of women, for this example, but these women have done incredible things. How am I gonna be able, why should I, I shouldn't be in this room, because they're all amazing. you know, starting to downplay my talents because they're all at a different level or have more experience or have their careers or financially successful. How does someone get over the imposter syndrome of being in the room when they are the whatever label they want to call it, the least successful financially, the least intelligent, the least experienced, whatever they want to say to themselves.

Yes.

I shouldn't be here.

Yeah.

Because I don't have X. How can they overcome the imposter syndrome?

Well, I think it's a process, right? It doesn't happen overnight. I think sometimes we think like, just think better thoughts. And it's like, that's lovely, but that's not working for me. You know, I think, first of all, challenge that belief when it comes into your head. When you have that thought, oh, I'm going into this room and I'm excited about it, but I'm intimidated because I don't know that I belong there. And really just check the receipts. Are you sure you don't belong there? Like, think about, who you are as a person, what do you have to offer the world? What is the value that you bring? What do people ask you to do that is valuable, right? What do they ask you advice on? You really just start to check your own receipts to see, really, is that true? Because usually the people who have imposter syndrome are people who have a very long and impressive resume, right? And I wrote about in my book how Maya Angelou and Michelle Obama, these are people who have imposter syndrome. way far into their career, they felt like they didn't belong in certain rooms, right? Really? Exactly. It's like, what? That makes no sense. And it's true for us as well. We'll think that we're not valuable or we'll have that same imposter syndrome and other people are like, are you crazy? You're amazing. You know, you're bugging. So I think- if someone's in the.

Room and they're gonna remember this conversation that you share here, and they're about to be in a room with a bunch of Powerhouse, whatever individuals that they want to be around. And they're like, this is the first time I've been around this group of people. I'm terrified. I'm nervous.

Yes.

What can they remind themselves in that moment when the Oprah of their industry is talking to them and they are potentially a nobody in that space? They're on their way up or whatever. What can they remind themselves?

I would say like ask, they should ask themselves, what do I love about myself? Right? Like, I'm funny. You know, I'm smart, I'm strategic, you know, I have great fashion sense, right? Like whatever it is, what is something that you love about yourself and think about how you're bringing that energy to that room, right? And just recognize that that is a lie and it is a practice. I used to be such a mean girl to myself in my head every single day.

Really?

What did you say? I said that I was not smart, stupid, you know, I said that like, I can't figure this out. I'm bad at business. I'm not good at making money. I'm not good at practicing law, which is what I did before, you know, my current business. Like, I would, I'm a bad mother. Like, I mean, I said every cruel thing that I could possibly say.

What did that do for you?

I mean, it made me feel bad, right? Like, it made me feel bad and it made me want to go get under the covers for three days. And sometimes I did, right? And then I would get my back up and go back to work because I had to, because I had kids to support. But I would do that, too. And what helped is meeting women who believe in themselves and just just being around that energy, they, it's just like that energy is gonna bring you along. Cause I think sometimes we think like, oh, I have to do all of this in my head. And once I fix it in my head, then I can go be around people. No, no, no, you need to go be around people. Cause that's what's gonna fix it, you know, being in that environment, our community, our environment, it affects us so much. It does. So it's so crucially important to be surrounded by positive people who believe in possibility, you know? So that's what I would say. And when I'm going to enter rooms, like, I go into intimidating rooms all the time. And I think now I just think like, I'm just gonna be myself. And if myself isn't good enough in this room, then I don't wanna be in this room. Next.

Next room. And do you think money buys us happiness?

No.

But I think it buys a roof over your head, which is happiness, right? So, you know, sometimes people, when people talk about like, money doesn't matter or whatever, I'm not beholden to money, or they think it's a moral high ground to act like, I don't care about money, right? So like you feel better about yourself because you don't care about money and your nose is in there because you don't care about money. I'm just like, this is a person who has never been poor. You know, like this is a person who is not aware of the real economic situation for so many people. And I think if you are aware of that, then you recognize that money is a powerful tool that enables you to take care of and feed your children, that enables you to house yourself, Just like the baseline, I have been in a place for many years, my family was, and then I was as a young adult, where my electric went out, and we didn't have lights for a week until my mom got paid again. Or where we didn't have food, or we were on food stamps, and I'd be embarrassed to use it, and there's only certain things we could buy with it, right? I've had that real financial insecurity, and I think anybody who has had that understands that money is very important.

Important.

Like the idea that it's not important is complete nonsense, you know? And it's like, that's the reason you're telling yourself that I would love to coach that person and dig into why are you telling yourself, why do you have that story? What is it doing for you?

Right?

Because the reality is, is that money is an important tool in the way that our society is organized today. And so we need it. And, you know, we need to learn how to get it. And that's exactly why I do what I do, to teach people how to get it and show them that it is possible. for you to create it on your own, you know? But yes, this idea that like, you know, money's not important or whatever, money is for bad people, I'm like, look, money pays the bills, okay? Like, let's get back to basics here, all right? I think y'all are forgetting something. And then once you have that baseline level of security, you can decide, do I want more? And if I do, how much more? And here's what I say all the time, you know, when people are like, well, how much is enough, right? You're a millionaire or your business is making X amount of money, Isn't that enough? Why do you still strive for more? And I tell them, because I am Black. Because there is a huge wealth chasm in this country. And as long as my people need money, and I'm good at earning it, I'm gonna keep earning it, and then put it where I think it belongs. So there's a certain amount of security I want for myself and my children. And frankly, I feel like I have that at this stage. So I've done that part. So it's like check. And so now the next thing to do is how can I spread it around? You know, like how can I have it be making change for people and change people's lives? Because I recognize money changes lives. And so I think it's important to just recognize money is neutral. It's not positive or negative. It's a tool. And it's how we use that tool that determines whether something bad happens or something evil happens or if you have a positive goal with it.

Yeah.

Have you met a lot of millionaires who are unhappy?

I've met millionaires who are unhappy, and I know plenty of happy ones.

You know what I mean?

I think there's both. And I think it's like, I mean, here's the benefit, right? If you're a millionaire and you're unhappy, you could probably go purchase some therapy. You can maybe go to a retreat, right? Like you can spend some money. Take some time off. Right, yeah. You can spend some money on figuring out how to solve that problem. I don't think it's money in itself that's making them miserable.

Really?

You know, maybe it could be, but maybe it's just because they're choosing to make it their master instead of really leading their own lives and directing their own lives. Like you were saying, right? Like living in LA, right?

Everybody's got a Ferrari or a Lamborghini or something, and you got a scooter. I'm driving a scooter.

Scoot down the street with a smile on my face. Wave at the guys in the Ferrari. Like, I want what that guy has, you know? It's like- Yes, but see, that's where.

We get into trouble is if we're like, oh, because somebody else has it, I have to have it.

It's like, do you want it? Is that something that you even care about?

I think one something because you want it, not because you're trying to impress someone else or show off, or you.

Think you should buy it.

Or because your friends have it, you're supposed to buy it.

Yes.

You have four kids, right?

Yes.

Four kids. What are the main themes that you teach your kids about money from all these different age ranges, you know, if you could share? three things that you teach them consistently at home.

Yes.

Whether it be a simple or profound principle, what are those three things that you talk about on a consistent basis with all of them?

Well, I like to teach them about consistency, which I think is about money. It's huge. Yeah, like you got to show up and you got to do this every day. And it's like, you did it for five days and they're like, well, I did it for five days. Why can't I get credit for that? And it's like, that's great, but this is the kind of thing where you got to show up. So teaching them really about habits and about like having a work ethic. If you want something, are you willing to put some sweat equity into it so you can have it? And so teaching them that, I think, is a core money principle. And then I also teach them about business. I teach them about entrepreneurship that you can create a business and sell anything and, you know, make money from your own creative ideas. So I want them to learn that. So my daughter is always like making books or she's making like little gifts for people for their birthdays. And she's an artist and I want to teach her to value her art. This beautiful thing that you created, we can hang it on the wall and that adds value to people's lives. So you can charge for that. So just having those conversations and showing them even things that they're creating now have value. Absolutely. Or things that they're willing to do. Like my son is like very techie. So I'm like, oh, the remote's not working. My eight-year-old and he's been doing this since he was six. He's like, Mom, just give it to me. He fixes it all. So he has that natural skill. It's obviously a natural skill. Who taught him? I didn't teach him nothing. I don't even know how to do it. Maybe he learned by watching my husband. I don't know. But I want him to see that, oh, your ability to come in and fix that for somebody who doesn't know how, that adds value. That's something you could charge for if you wanted to in the future. So teaching them that and asking them to do things and telling them, if you do XYZ, I will pay you. So I negotiate a lot with them. So, you know, it's like we did this family photo shoot recently, and my son absolutely hates taking photos. He hates getting dressed up. He hates the whole production of it. And so I'm like, okay, so you did this for mommy, and you make sure you smile in all of the pictures, and you have to, like, not, like, untuck your shirt and do all those things. And if you do all of that, then I'm going to allow you to play video games tonight for two hours. on a weekday. Wow. That's big time.

So like, deal?

Yeah.

And then we shake hands. And then there are times where he tries to go back on the deal, you know? And he makes deals with his sister too. And like, he'll try to go back on it. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. If you make a deal, you have to stick to it, you know? So making sure that he understands that if you say, if you give your word on something, you have to back that up. Yes. So teaching them that, I guess, is another part of the money story. And I like them to just, it's so funny, My husband and I will go for walks or whatever, and we'll be talking about business. My husband's a CFO, and so we're having business conversations and my daughter's hanging out with us listening in. And my husband's like, yep, you stay right there and listen to all of this, you know, soak it in. So teaching her just about like the different strategies that we we try and, you know, marketing moves are making or whatever, different investments that we're making and why we're doing it. and explaining that to her, willing to have that conversation. You know, like, we bought a beach house. Let's talk about how, you know, we're only gonna use it for the summer, but we're gonna rent it out during the other parts of the year, and that's gonna cover the cost of what we're paying for the summer or like what we're paying for it all year long. So this is the strategy and explaining it to her so she can start to see. And it's like, it's repetition, right? It's us having those conversations over and over again over time. And there's something about, the eldest daughter. I don't know what it is, but she's going to be running this whole empire.

That's great.

You can already tell.

That's great.

That's fun. What do you think is the difference between a rich mindset and a poor mindset?

Yeah, well, I think it's just about seeing opportunity and feeling expansive and seeing abundance versus seeing everything as small and not possible. And like, does it cut off your opportunities or does it create opportunity for you? You know? So I think that's the difference, right? And just making decisions that are going to create more abundance in your life. And sometimes it's the opposite of what personal finance people say, right? Like personal finance people are always like, budget, budget, budget. Budget is king, budget is ruler, right? Like you are beholden to the budget, nothing else rules. Never go outside the budget, blah, blah, blah, right? And it's I think it's more than that. I don't think it's just about money is about, yes, you have a balance sheet, you do math, money is math as well, but it's also feeling, right? So like the advice that's always given to women about like, don't stop buying lattes, stop buying shoes, cut coupons. It's like, that doesn't make me feel rich. That doesn't make me feel abundant or feel wealthy. It makes me feel broke if I can't afford to buy a coffee when I, have a good job and I work hard every day, you know?

Sure.

So what does make me, but if I buy a latte every day and that makes me feel fabulous as I sit and drink my latte and think about whatever it is that I'm thinking about, when I have that feeling, I'm more likely to create things that will add value to the world and get me paid, you know?

You're more excited, passionate, abundant, feeling energetic, and that energy attracts opportunities.

That's right.

So do the things that bring you joy.

Yes. and I'm not saying like, oh, go buy a Lamborghini, you know, if you don't have Lamborghini money, right? I'm not saying do that, but like, how can you find ways to feel abundant every day? And it's not just that, it's like, you know, I was staying at a place, it was not an expensive place in Laguna a couple of weeks ago, I'm sorry, a couple days ago. And, you know, it's like not a fancy room at all, but it had this gorgeous ocean view and I listened to the ocean as I fell asleep, like, , that is abundance, right? And I went for a run like along the beach. That was amazing. And it cost me nothing to go for that run. You know what I mean? So it's like, sometimes it's just sitting outside and petting your cat and being in the sun and taking a few minutes for yourself makes you feel abundant. So it's not always dollars, but finding that way to just sort of attract that and to feel like spaciousness, like I have time, I have, you know, the ability, right? I, I have creativity. You have a wealth of things. and the reality is, if you live in the US, you have a lot more than a lot of other people around the world, right? So you are rich, right? Whether you think you are or not living in this country for most people. And so if that's the case, right, how can we start to think that way?

Why do we lack in perspective?

You know, it's-- Yes, I think it's, you know, all of the things that we're inundated with every day, like the different media, might be the shows that we watch, you know, like people joke about like watching a sitcom and like somebody, you know, she's a waitress, but she has this fabulous apartment in Manhattan. It's like, really? How does that work? So I think it's sometimes the things that we expose ourselves to, and we can just choose to expose ourselves to other things, right? We can be exposed to a lot of things that tell you like, oh, you're not good enough, or you're not smart enough, or you're overweight, or you're whatever, all kinds of messages that we get every day. And so you got to curate that.

Mm-.

You know, curate your Instagram feed, right? Curate who's in your ear. If you have somebody who, you know, if your mom or your friend from childhood is always making you feel like you're broke, stop talking to them. Like, talk to them. I mean, I'm not saying cut them off, but like, maybe don't be on group chat with them every day, you know? But be on group chat with people who have that abundant thinking, right? Who are thinking expansively. And also, you know what? Makes me feel rich saying no makes me feel rich. Like we just talked about, right? Like having boundaries and somebody asking me, Do I want to do that thing? Whether it's a money thing or not, and just saying, no, I don't want to go to that party, or no, I don't want to do that thing, and just feeling comfortable doing that. That feels abundant, you know?

And that creates more space for abundance in your life. That's cool. And what would you say the biggest insecurities or challenges you face now at your stage after I guess 13 years in business now, crossing the 100,000, crossing the seven figure mark and beyond. What's the challenge for the next level for you?

Yes. Okay, so we just hit eight figures and here's something that I just caught myself doing is being like, well, I know how to run a seven figure business. I don't know how to run an eight figure business. I don't know how to run a $10 million business. And it's like, that's not true actually. Maybe there are some things that I don't know about this next phase, but that doesn't mean I can't figure it out or, and that doesn't mean that there aren't things that I do know. So I've had to like, this is an ongoing journey, right? Where you're having to constantly correct yourself and say like, stop talking like that, because that's actually not helping anything. So what do you know, right? What evidence do you have that you are the right leader for this organization during this next phase, you know? Because I think being a founder and an entrepreneur creating something is different than continuing something. and continuing to scale it. Right. And I've seen this happen with some of my peers too. Like your company gets to a certain size and you're like, Should I even be CEO anymore? Right, right. Maybe you shouldn't, I mean, or maybe you should, right? Maybe it's just imposter syndrome. So I think that's one of the things that I'm kind of dealing with. And I also think something that I recently went through that I feel like I'm coming out of is trusting myself with this amount of money.

You know what I mean?

You've never had this much money before.

Exactly. what do I do with this much money?

Yes, exactly.

Which investment should I be spending it in? Am I spending at the right, wrong places?

Interesting. Yeah. And I've had, like, you know, you have different financial advisors that you go to or you're supposed to get advice and they tell me to do things or they don't. Here's the interesting thing. They tell me to do things that I don't want to do. And then the things that I do want to do and I do get excited about investing in, they tell me not to do it. And I'm like, well, but that's the thing I want Right. And to me, it makes financial sense. And they tell me why they think I shouldn't. And I'm like, still wanna do it though.

Can you give an example?

Like, okay, like buying this beach house this year, right? That is something. And I bought that beach house for my family so that I was just imagining being on the beach with my kids, like all summer long. And we lived in a landlocked area. I love water. I like being near water. And so it was like, this will be absolutely amazing. And we usually go like one or two weeks you rent, and it's so expensive. And so I'm like, why do that? We could buy something, we could rent it, and then we could use it during the summer. And it was the best summer ever.

She were there the whole summer.

All summer long, my family came down, my friends came to visit. Beaches, beach houses attract people.

Of course.

Was this Florida or where is this?

This is in North Carolina. Okay, cool. And the beaches in North Carolina are amazing. So, you know, we've had an amazing time at this like expensive piece of property that my financial advisor told me absolutely do not buy. But the value in it was really.

Like- A rich life, a rich feeling.

Yes, that was it.

Which probably allows you to think bigger and expansiveness in your business.

Totally.

Your family is, you know, feeling- Joy.

And love and exactly. And it doesn't have to make money, right? Like I have other ways to make money. I can, if I can, and I can break even on it. So I'm like, I could have all of this amazing time with my family and it allows me to be generous. Like one of the, I just invested in a startup, which is another thing that I was like feeling uncomfortable about, you know? And so the founder was like just on this like big work sprint and doing so much to get this company up and running. And she was like, Gonna go on a vacation. She asked me where to go in North Carolina and I was like, oh, come stay at my beach house. Oh, wow. And just like, you know what I mean? Like being able to do things like that is, that's cool. It's awesome. And I've done that for a couple of friends now and it just feels so good. So I think it was worth it. It may break even. It may make me a little bit of money, but like, that's okay. And I had it. I could afford it. I had the money to do it. So it's just like I've had to learn to listen to my own voice. Here's the other thing that happens to me a lot with financial advisors and like accountants and like all the financial people, not all of them, but most of them in my life, they all are like, well, you know, in order to do XYZ, we'd need to make another million dollars or we need to do this or that or whatever. And it's like, that's not possible. We could look at that for next year or the year after. And I'm like, oh no, I'm gonna go make that million right now.

Let's go, right now, yeah.

And they're like, that's, you know, we shouldn't be doing that. Like, it's impossible.

Right?

Like you're gonna break the business, right?

Like- They're too conservative, though.

Exactly! And I'm just, and they don't believe me. And I'm like, I want you to look at the P&Ls for the last three years of this business, and then come at me again and tell me that I can't do it. Like, what are you talking about? Of course I could do it. And I'm like, here's the problem. It's happening inevitably, right? Like we are naturally growing. Let's just ramp it up, right? Exactly. There's an audience there. There's more and more people interested in what we're selling. It's happening anyway. And that's the other thing, we create these projections and they're like, we're not gonna hit those projections. And I'm like, your projections are too low. Like you need to go with mine. And inevitably, we always exceed it every year. And then I'm like, it becomes a problem because you actually can't plan right if you're like really undershooting. So then you grow too much, you don't have enough team to cover it, right? Like all of those things. So learning to trust my own instincts over all of these, so quote unquote experts. And they are experts and they definitely advise me on different things. But when it comes to my own skill set and what I know I'm capable of doing, I'm just like, mm-mm. And there was actually somebody I fired because they just kept saying, that's not possible. You should be more conservative, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Goodbye, get out of my ear. You're not helping me. You're not putting me in the space of abundance.

Abundance, yeah.

It's true.

What was the mindset shift for you from going seven figures to eight figures? Like, what did it take?

Yes. Well, it took.

Is it tactical? Is it mindset? Is it a team? Is it systems, processes? What was that?

Yes. I think it's all of that. But I think a big part of it is learning how to not do and learning how to lead. That is what takes you from seven to eight. Is learning how to have a team, delegate to them, remove yourself from the day-to-day, and recognizing that the more you remove yourself from the business, the more it's going to grow. 'Cause usually if there's something dependent on me, I am absolutely holding it up. You know what I do, it's like you have to keep redefining your role in a company, right? If you're the CEO, then it's like, how does your CEO role change over time when you've hired a COO or you've hired other leaders on your team and you've got this team of copywriters and all kinds of people, coaches on my team, right? Like let them do their thing. learn how to get out of the way. You've hired smart people, let them do it. So really removing yourself and learning how to lead and have a vision and say, Hey y'all, here's where we're going. Here's where we're trying to go in the next three years. Let's talk about how we're gonna get there. We'll figure out the how together. And these are the goals we're gonna hit this year. And then just let them go and be there to coach them and support them. And help them step into their own leadership. Help them solve the problems you've solved. learning how to delegate or learning how to protect your time. Now you got to teach them how to do that.

Sure.

So that's, that's what that phase was. And what, what the next phase holds. I have no idea. Probably even more of that.

More of that.

Yeah. Yes.

I think debt feels daunting for a lot of people.

Yes.

And if you were broke today and if you were in debt, let's say, let's say you made a bunch of challenging financial decisions. You made all, you know, your mistake journal is filled up to the brim.

Yeah.

And you're broke in a lot of debt.

Yep.

What is the exact process you would take then from going from broken in debt to creating a financially free life?

Oh, I get excited about this. All right, very first thing is I'm stepping back. And before I even look at my debt, I'm talking, okay, where do I want to be within the next 12 months? After 12 months, next three years, five years.

So you think a game plan first?

I'm getting the vision for the next five years of my life, right? So if I say, Hey, listen, I want to be in California, living in my dream home, debt free, like whatever that vision is, I'm casting that vision. Below that vision, I'm writing down the why. You know, one of my good friends, Pastor Darius Daniels mentioned something. He said, Man, if your why doesn't make you cry, then the price of commitment for the next five years is is going to make you cry. Let's go. And it's going to make you quit. And so for me, once I write down the vision, I'm going to write down a why. Why do I want to accomplish this vision? So if I'm drowning in debt and I know I want to be out of debt, I want to be in my home. Why do I want the home? I don't want the home just because it's nice sitting on the beach. I want the home probably because you know what, man? Growing up, me and my kid, me and my siblings had to share a room, right? You know what? We never were a homeowner. Maybe I'm the first Homeowner in my family. So I'm, I'm getting a deep enough why that when it gets hard, when I feel like giving up, it's going to make me cry and make me push through. So that I'm doing that. So that's number two. Day number three, I'm looking at, I'm pulling credit card, I'm pulling the last three months of my bank statements, and I'm getting on a very detailed budget. I'm writing down everything. And I call this a zero base budget. But for me, I know a lot of people get turned off by the word of budgeting. So I call it, what's the vision now I have for my life? What's the vision for my money? So if I'm saying, okay, cool, I want to be debt free, but I got to go look at my credit report. I got to pull Equifax, TransUnion, Experian. I got to pull the last three months of my bank statements. And this is something I do in a regular, Louis, I'll get five highlighters, different colors, and I'll go doing a highlight, okay, food is one color. And I want to see how much money over the last three to six months have I spent on food?

Wow.

And if I'm saying, okay, dang, I I was talking about Barber. He spent two grand on food in one month. Wow. Just eating out. I'm like, two grand. I'm like, bro, it's just you. What are you eating for? Two thousand dollars. Wow. And 20. I'm like, I know it's expensive out here in the streets, but it's not that expensive. So I'm like, two grand in one month. Okay, we need to cut that off by, like, three-fourths. You need to be down to 500 in including groceries and eating out, boom, when it's just you. So, like I'm highlighting everything and I'm assessing making sure that I know exactly where my money is going. Because here's the truth, you cannot manage your money if you're not measuring it. You can't really understand what you're doing and where you're going if you're not tracking what it's doing. And for the majority of the people who are watching this show, I'll say this. I won't say the majority, but if we were with the School of Greatness, we're going to say a majority of y'all should be winning. For those of us who are watching this show, a lot of us are probably saying, dang, I just got paid last week, but I don't know where the money went. And it's because you're not, you're not managing it well because you're not measuring where your money is going. So that's number three. I'm gonna, I'm gonna list out everything and watch this. Before I put it on the budget, I'm going to write it out. Yo, I owe this bank this. I owe that bank this. I'm gonna list out every, every, all the debt. Out of all the debt, I'm gonna list out all of my monthly expenses. Then I'm gonna take that information and I'm gonna put it on this budget. And here's the truth. If we're gonna be honest, it is going to frustrate you.

Yeah.

It is going to make you feel depressed a little bit. You're going to feel discouraged a little bit because what's going to happen is.

You'Re gonna see you have more debt.

Than you have income. That's going to be my number four. once I see that I have all this debt, I'm going to measure, okay, what is the income strategy that I need to come up with that is going to create margin to help me pay off my debt. And I tell everyone that's going to be a job. And except for getting a second job. Listen, man, the content creation space, I just think right now is a healthy place to get into. But I think a lot of us have a lot up here that people will pay to have. And so, like, an example, I had a school teacher come to me and she was like, man, Anthony, I'm in $238,000 in debt. Oh, 140 of them are her student loans because she has her doctorate. Then two of them are cars, her and her husband, then the others just credit cards and stuff from here. I said, okay, all right, let's write it down. And so as I was talking with her, I said, listen, she said, I'm gonna get another job working at Walmart. I'm part-time I said, I think that's a, that's not a good, good use of your time. I say, why not? You're a school teacher. Why not go home? You're making good money over here. Why not go home and create maybe a course or an academy that helps get kids ready for the SAT? And she's like, what do you mean? I say, why not use the skills that you're giving to the, the job, to the school system and build a side business? that now parents can buy to help them get ready for the SAT. She was like, Anthony never thought about that. So she went home and she started dreaming with her husband. Well, she came back to me. Not only did she come up with the business that is going to help kids with the SAT, but she also came up with the business that helps school students in school to be a teacher to help them graduate in college. A year later, Her side business is paying her more than what the school teaching is doing because she took her wisdom and her knowledge and turned it into a side business. So, not only is she creating more income, now she's able to use the tax benefits that the wealthy are using. And I said, okay, are you gonna quit your job? She was like, no. Because my side business is funding this thing. I honestly love teaching students. So, what happened? Husband quit his job. He runs the business.

Wow.

He does all of the marketing. He does all of the stuff. And this is what I love. It puts them back at the head of their table.

Yes.

Because now it's like, wait, we're now controlling our life. Now she went from having to be a school teacher to wanting to be a school teacher. She went from having to work to, you know what? I love what I do.

Yes.

And that's the freedom that you have when you're at the seat at the head of your table, is that you get to decide what you want to do in a direction or wherever you want to go.

What would you say is the number one piece of financial advice you're seeing online that people should ignore?

You know, there is a lot. You know, it's not just one. I'm like, man, it's so many Lewis that I could say. But I think the number one financial advice that I would say, and I talk about this inside of the book that I would ignore, is that everyone has to be an entrepreneur.

Ignore that.

Ignore that. Because that's not the case. I think everyone should have an entrepreneurial mindset, but not everyone should be entrepreneurial. Because if you want to be a when they say be an entrepreneurship, what they're talking about is they're selling you, hey, man, I could work on the beach. Hey, man, I'm finding the private Jets. Hey, man, you know, I'm able to go buy this G wagon and write off 100 of it because it's over six thousand pounds. They're lying to you. I've been doing this for four years. And me, you don't have several conversations offline. This entrepreneurial world is not for everybody, and it's frustrating, and I have not to this day. worked on the beach.

Because you worked in a career before and now you're an entrepreneur now.

Yes. And if I'm being honest, in the corporate America space, in the corporate space, man, I'm working harder today than I was then.

Of course.

Right.

So I'm not flying on private jets and just not working for a month or two. That's not happening. And so I think some of the first advice is looking at these influencers and they're selling you on, hey, I can coach you to be a, a, a, your own boss and you'll be working at the beach. And not saying it can't happen because have I gone on vacation and worked? Absolutely. But what I am saying is out of 365 days a year, these people say you only got to work 20 of them, that's a lie. And so I think for me, it's, it's really, we got to start teaching how to, how to have the entrepreneurial mindset, but not everyone is called to be an entrepreneur because I think I need a real good assistant if I'm going to be effective. And I think people are made as a Christian. I do believe people are made to be the number two, the number three, the number four, to be the team player, because an effective business cannot run without effective team members. And you can be just as wealthy and you can be just as successful if you are living the authentic life of yourself. I think one of the greatest mistakes of that I see in people, especially this younger generation, they want to rush to be their own boss, but they haven't really done anything to learn how to be an effective boss. And I'm so grateful that God put me through the seasons of serving in the church world, serving in the corporate America space, because I would not be successful today if I didn't learn up on any different people.

Mm-.

And I think for me, I think that is one of the dumbest mistakes that I've seen people make. And I think another mistake I saw online and it was so frustrating to me is take your student loans and go buy real estate with it. I was like, go borrow money, take out a parent plus loan.

Oh, man. Have them sign on it.

Have them sign on it. to go buy real estate. And the real estate was just a down payment on all. It's not the whole house.

Yeah.

Exactly. I I gotta pay double interest now. High interest on the student loan, high interest on. On this. I'm like, wait a minute. So there's so many different things, man, that. That I really adjust to, but I think one of the things I learned for you, man, I gotta give you credit for it. I think it was like a year and a half ago, Lewis, because I'm always watching your shows and always growing from you, your advice and the people you had on. And, man, because of you, I have an interchangeable seat at my table. I have an interchangeable seat between my therapist and my emotional coach. And you talked about that, like a year and a half, I want to say. And what I learned was that my emotions, I was making Financial decisions based upon my emotions. When my emotions shouldn't be making decisions, I should be managing my emotions.

Yes.

But my emotions should not be managing me. And I've made bad financial decisions because of how I felt off of my emotions. And if I'm being honest and vulnerable, I've lost out on great relationships and friendships because I didn't manage my emotions.

Yes.

And I'm like, whoa, so when I heard you say that, like bro, I got convicted. I was like, let me get Lewis over here preaching. I was like, Lewis, does he know he a prophet? So I literally stepped back and started looking for emotional coaches because I realized, like man, if I'm being honest, like Lewis, to this day, I still meet with, I still meet with him. And to this day, it is still a struggle for me to control and manage my emotions. because when you have that feeling, you gotta be like, no, this, this, this is my emotions. I cannot make a decision in this state.

Yeah.

And I've made decisions in that state that has cost me a lot of money. That has, I've probably lost out on an amazing woman because of that. I probably lost business relationships and even friendships because of that. But I think I hear this often within the world. Amen. If you're feeling bad, man, just go to the mall and just do some window shopping. That's your emotions talking. You know what, man? We tend to go buy things when we're feeling a certain kind of way. That's your emotions talking. And so I would encourage people, man, to get that interchangeable seat between the therapist and emotional coach, and they work together. My therapist helps me understand the Practical reason of why I made the decision. My emotional coach is helping me understand why I'm feeling the way that I'm feeling and how to control that.

How can people start to shift out of a scarcity mindset into abundance thinking when they're just fight or flight survival mode daily?

This is a great question. I'm so glad you asked it early on in our time together. I was very lucky to have a dad that believed in the American dream. He built into me psychologically the ideals of the American dream. he gave me Think and Grow Rich when I was 10 years old and said, read this at least one time every year of your life. But we came from the hills of West Virginia in the Hollers. And my grandfather did not believe in the American Dream. He worked in the coal mines. He worked in the factories, the chemical factories. He basically believed that money was a source of evil. He believed people that had it were greedy. He believed he was entitled to money that he didn't create. And he always viewed it as anybody that had money was a crook. And my dad rejected that. My dad, by the time he was 10 years old, was an entrepreneur three times over. He sold newspapers, he sold cloverine salve to the miners where their hands were cracked and he signed shoes. So he believed that if you created value for other people, that you would be rewarded with wealth and prosperity and that people that had money weren't crooks, but they actually were really hardworking and dedicated. And he loved this country and the values that it stood for. So the minds, every summer we'd go back to West Virginia and I'd see the people living in the poverty and they didn't have physical shackles. It was a mindset, I call it a screen. by which they saw themselves as victims, a screen, a psychological screen made out of language, language that you're taught. And then there's the language or the screen of the American dream. And that, and most people do look at money as a form of survival. And that is largely in our DNA too. I mean, for thousands of years, people had a real hard time surviving. And so money was in property was a form of survival. But now we live in a relative world of abundance and creativity. And if you can get that screen of the American dream, you can start to escape that terrible bonds that really imprison you almost in a world of scarcity.

Two things here. One, can you explain what the screen is? Is it a framework of thinking and language around what money is?

Yes. So it's the way that people can think about it. Sometimes you create that language on purpose. Like if I'm going to go be a doctor, I spend many, many years developing language around what a doctor is. So they see the human body as very different as someone who doesn't have that language. Well, we have all kinds of conversations in our lives about money, about the world, about how money works, how money is created, our place in the world and our relationship to money. and money, ironically, having a lot of money doesn't mean you're going to be happy. As a matter of fact, I've seen a lot of really, really wealthy people, tens, 20, 30s, millions of dollars in history is rife with people like Elvis Presley, Marilyn Monroe, Howard Hughes, Prince, people with a lot of money, power, fame, but it didn't do them any good. It actually helped seal their fate in the end and became very destructive.

There's another thing that you mentioned, just before this was, you know, there's kind of two different mindsets. Your grandfather, who worked in the coal mines, who worked really hard, it sounds like on a daily basis, but didn't understand how to create more value, whether in his coal mine or somewhere else, and therefore was given what he received, correct?

Yeah.

Versus your dad, where it sounds like, how did your dad break that mindset from his father? who he saw probably miserable or unhappy in the minds and dirty every night and sick and coughing. How did he say, I want to change this without a model of someone showing him abundance?

Well, that's, that's great. And, and go back to my grandfather once. His screen was so strong. It was like they lived in two different worlds. It's how the two different dimensions of reality. His screen was so strong when he was offered an opportunity to grow at Union Carbide, he was offered to be and have a crew underneath him. He told them no.

Why?

Because he didn't want to be part of the machine.

That's evil and bad.

He didn't want to be evil and bad in his eyes. So he proved it to himself that he was doomed to be our money, I call these money demons. These money demons, which we all have at various times in our life, they take us over and preclude us from doing things that could actually save us. so he never took that race. He never took that opportunity to save his family, even when it was offered to him. And I've asked my dad, I said, what, how did you, I mean, this poverty, this abject poverty, they would cut the tops off of instacarnation milk cans and they would hammer it to the baseboards in their shack by the railroad so that the rats wouldn't come in their house in the wintertime. that's how much poverty my dad came from. He only had one pair of shoes a year right before school started, and then they were barefoot all summer long. I mean, this was true abject poverty. He said, I saw a couple examples of people that did have a little bit of money, and they were nice and they helped me, and I went to work for them. And I noticed that my dad was wrong, that people that had money weren't evil, and they weren't bad, and they were actually willing to help. and I had a couple good teachers in school that taught me about that. But deep down, my dad had, and I don't know where he got it, he had a deep-seated belief in capitalism and entrepreneurism.

Yeah. So what, you mentioned money demons. What are money demons? And do we all have them?

We all do to a greater or lesser extent.

What is a money demon?

So I'll give you an example. So when I started my company, I wanted to help a You know, we manage $11 billion for people all over North America, 500 advisors. But when I started, I only had three employees. And I had a demon belief, it's a belief created in language that then we don't realize that it's only just a screen. We take it one as reality. And that reality was that employees suck. And they're too expensive. And when you hire them, they don't do a good job. and the other money demon I had was that I'm not a good manager and I don't know how to manage people, so I'll just do it myself. Now, money demons are so pervasive because when we have them, we make their self-fulfilling prophecies and we make them come true. And we don't look for opportunities that violate our screen. So I had to look at what I was getting out of it. What was I getting out of that screen? Well, I got to play small, didn't have to hire people. I got to be self-righteous, I got to be condemning.

You were right all the time.

I'm right and righteous. I got to gossip about other people, character assassinate. I got to be a victim. I mean, it was juicy psychological payoff. But I also had to realize that if I was gonna, if I couldn't change those screens about the world, that I was gonna be doomed never to fulfill my mission. which was to help more people stop speculating with their money and fulfill their American dream. And then you have to do a cost-benefit analysis and say, okay, am I going to keep that demon belief because there is payoff?

Yes.

I can live a normal, ordinary life, not full of greatness. Thorough said it the best, quiet desperation. Or am I going to break that belief? And I actually call it do violence to Interesting. I have to actually kill it.

Yes.

I have to kill that belief. But the thing about money demons is when you kill them and have more money, they don't disappear. They often morph.

How so?

Well, so after I became successful, and then I went through a divorce, and then I started eventually dating after some therapy and counseling, and I started dating. and I started getting one string of really painful relationships after another. And I developed a belief based on the divorce and dating that what, that I'm not really that attractive. I'm not really that sexy. I got a lot of money, and that's what women really want from me. And so that I'll never really, you know, have someone I really truly love and really, truly loves me. And then I had a, you know, string of dating examples that created that. and so I had to do violence to that belief.

So how does that look like in your mind? How do you kill off the old limiting belief or the demons that keep you small or hold you back?

So you have to look at the benefits you're getting out of it. The benefits, and I know it doesn't seem like there are benefits, but there are benefits to being right and playing small and not taking risks.

Being a victim, too.

And being a victim of being the martyr.

You advise, how many different, I guess, advisors would you say?

Roughly 500.

500, and they're managing portfolios of what type of range?

Oh, gosh. We try not to have a minimum because we want to help everybody, but there's portfolios up to 70, 80 million.

Sure. Okay. But you have this part of the book, page 73, called the Destructive Cycle of Wealth. And you say, yes, it's cliche that money can't make you happy. Songs have been written about it, but why can't money make you happy? Shouldn't it make you a little bit happier if you suddenly stumble into, say, $100 million? You say the answer is no, and it sounds counterintuitive, but I firmly believe that to be true. And if money isn't making us any happier and most of us have much more than what we need, why do we work so hard to make more of it? Why do we spend so much of our lives thinking about money without even realizing it? We are stuck in the destructive cycle of wealth and learning about this cycle can help you better understand some of your decisions about money. And you say it has five phases beginning with our most basic human needs. Can you talk about what this destructive cycle of wealth is?

Yeah.

Why it's important for us to understand it and what we can do to make sure we don't stay in it.

Yeah. so when I realized that I had clients with a lot of money that were very unhappy, that was my next question. My dad, one of the key strategies in the book is to ask a good question.

Yeah.

And don't try to rush to get the answer. Take your time and really let it work on you and your subconscious and really think about it. So it took me years to think about this and that the reason it can't make you happy is because it doesn't fill anything in your spiritual nature that can bring happiness.

But it fulfills the survival nature, right?

Yeah. So we all want things and we want things for our survival. That's instincts, food, clothing, shelter, love, that kind of stuff. And then we go out and we obtain things and we obtain those things, most of us. But then we want more. Toyota even had that commercial, what a feeling, you know, when you get the Toyota. So you don't just want a new car, you want really nice car. You don't want in the house. You want a really nice house. You don't. So. And then when you do get something, whether it's the computer or golf clubs or a purse or whatever it is, you have it for a while, you obtained it, you felt good about it for a little while. Then you start comparing it to what everybody else has. I had a boat I bought in Florida when we had a house down there, and it was a 37 footer, 300 Yamaha Motors. I love that boat, had tons of fun on that boat. It was adventurous, really great. And then one day there was a 180 foot yacht and their dinghy was bigger than my boat. And I'm like, this ain't no boat. I gotta get me a bigger boat. Really? Yeah. And, but whether it's the size of your portfolio, the size of your house, you buy the perfect house, you think it's perfect, then six months later you're looking at the kitchen going, these cabinets really suck. We really need to rip these out. It's just human nature. And then, so then it brings us around to comparing it to other things. Sometimes in technology, it's this way. They always come out with bigger, better, faster, cooler technology we want. And then you lead you back up to this topic wanting stuff. So it can't, it doesn't fulfill at a deep meaningful purpose. And that leads you back to what you mentioned earlier, which is survival. It's about survival.

So if I'm getting this right, we go through the cycle and you know a lot of people who are mega millionaires, maybe even billionaires who are unhappy still. Would you say the majority of millionaires or billionaires are unhappy? The ones that you've been around or experienced?

I don't know about the majority, but I do know there is no correlation. And I know it from my personal.

Life too, because- Because happiness and having money.

Right.

Because there's been times where I had a lot of money, was very unhappy, had no money and was pretty happy.

So you also had a lot of money and been happy, too.

I would take the latter, the money and the happiness at the same time.

You've experienced that too.

And I have.

Yes.

But if it's not the money, then what is it? And what I've found is it's having a purpose in life that's greater than money itself. Something. And if you think throughout history, the people that have changed the world, whether it's Ronald Reagan or whether it's Martin Luther King or whether it's JFK or whether it's Walt Disney or the Wright brothers. Or you think about these people that have changed the world, they've all had this deep purpose, sense of purpose and value in their life, so much so that they've even laid their life. Dr. Martin Luther King laid down his life for his purpose. and that's how strong purpose can be. And if you'll have a purpose first, then use it to create value for other people in align with their purpose. And then the more money you have, great. Because then I can align how I use that money with my purpose in life. And, and I can do great things with my money. That brings me joy and happiness and freedom from, and freedom and fulfillment with other people. But if I have the money without the purpose, it just becomes a burden.

Really? It becomes empty.

It's so empty.

I need more money, more money, more money for what?

It's an addiction of itself.

So it sounds like the greater the purpose you have, the more fulfilled you'll be with or without money.

Absolutely. As a matter of fact, if you have a strong enough purpose, you don't even need money. You know, like Mother Teresa, saints.

Well, because they feel taken care of by the community or they know they're gonna be provided for. Happening with whatever they receive each day.

It's about their purpose in life. If I don't have, look, you can live in America for very little money. Even if you only have 40 or $50,000 a year, you live better than the king of England did 500 years ago. You have chocolate, you have air conditioning, you have food, you have running water, you have healthcare. It's a miracle. Everybody should wake up every morning in America going, it's a miracle. It's a miracle. I can't believe I live here. of course they don't. But it's a miracle that what we have, and if you only have a little bit of money and you have a friend in the hospital, you can make a card with a crayon or a pin. You could go to the hospital, you could sit by there, buy them and hold their hand, and you could express your love and affection. And that's going to be more fulfilling than a Ferrari. I'm not anti-Ferrari, I got one. But, It's parting for an hour, but.

It'S not, you know, it's- I call.

Them cookies and toys. You say you got these toys, they're fun, okay, fine, great. I'm not saying that they're bad, but they won't make me happy. And then food, it's anything you ingest that try to change your mood about yourself and feel better temporarily, but they're not permanent. Right.

This is powerful, man. I love this. You know, and when you, and you mentioned early on that we, people have these screens. And just so I'm clear, is a screen kind of like a framework? It's kind of like a framework of thinking towards money or towards life. Is that your definition of a screen?

It is. It is.

It's a model, a model, a way of thinking.

It's a mental model that you have that you, here's the critical part that you don't know you have. Mm. because it just appears like the truth.

Yes.

And not something that you just made up. A story. Yeah, something happened. I lost money on a house, but I have a degree in finance and accounting. I'm bad at real estate. Really? That's just being a wimp. Right. So it's the story that I make up about whatever, and a lot of it's money, relationships with money. and it all comes down to, when I run these exercises with people, first you make a list of your complaints. What's all your complaints about money? And then what demon belief or relationship do you have based on that complaint? And then where did it come from? What happened when you were eight years old? The first time you heard your mom and dad yelling about money that gave you that story that you have about what money is. because something did happen. But then what you made it mean is not what is just a story you made up. And you can start to do battle with those and start to untangle them over time. And then it's kind of like the demon in it, it morphs into other things. It's not that it only dies for like hides for 17 years, then it comes out as something else. And it changes usually into what your greatest fear is.

So can you give me an example if you were doing this exercise for yourself and I'm assuming you've done this a bunch of times or you have an example of something, a story that you had, a money story or a moment or memory that caused a belief within your screen that I guess you made decisions based on for many years until you became aware of it and killed it off. What would that look like for you? Well, give one example of your daddy or grandpa or whatever that might be.

So there's screens, money is, people like to try to compartmentalize things in their brain like, well, this is money, this is my relationships, this is my life, this is my whatever. But money doesn't work like that. It's got tentacles and it's like a thread that goes through the carpet of your life and it touches everything. So when I have a money demon, I also usually have a relationship demon. when I went through divorce, I thought, okay, you're gonna lose half of all your stuff now, including your company that you built. So that was less than ideal. That was a money demon. But I also had another money demon or relationship demon related to that is that I had grown up most of my life as an atheist and took classes in college about how there's no God and all this garbage. And so then when I went through the divorce, I mean, I was gutted. I mean, obviously it was dark. I'm a bad father. I wasn't seeing my kids. I'm gonna lose my company. It's gonna be like, this is gonna be the worst thing ever in my life. I got depressed. And then I was talking to a buddy on the phone. So I lived in a world, a screen, as there is no God. And I'm talking to a buddy of mine and he's, I'm probably crying. He's like, well, are you ready? I said, ready for what? He said, are you ready to admit there's a God and it's not you? Oh. And I'm like, yeah, I am.

Or you could have said, see, there is no God because I'm divorced, half my money's gone, my business is gone, my kids don't like me, right? You could have also gone and stayed in that belief.

Yeah, I could have just stayed there and- if there wasn't God, why would.

He let this happen to me?

Yeah, right? Well, I knew because I was a sinner and I didn't believe in God. But he, but you know what all of the in this and a screen sometimes can change slow or sometimes it can go fast. But I knew instantly I could not live in a world without a God anymore.

Wow.

I just it was empty, it was devoid and it was hopeless. And I didn't have any doubts or questions. All the intellectual gymnastics I had been doing my whole life went away. And he said, get on your knees and let's pray. I was in that hotel room and started praying and I went from a screen, a world of no God to a world of God. And that's made all, it's made all the difference. Kind of like the master screen that fits into the other screens. Wow. But screens are powerful and people will literally die to keep their screens like my grandpa did. He died. He died. He came to visit us only one time at our house in Cincinnati. It was August. It was a cool for August. He walked in the front door. We had above maybe like an 1800 foot square house. It wasn't huge. He said, How many people looked at my dad in front of his whole family? He said, How many people did you have to rip off to keep this house?

Oh, my gosh. That was his first thing.

That was his first thing out of his mouth.

Jeez. His screen, his framework, his mindset, when he saw something, he said, you, did something wrong to get this.

Yep.

There's no way you could have done something good to be able to afford something like this.

That's right, man. And I know my dad wanted me to be proud of him.

That's tough.

And right in front of his whole family, and he said, George, Mary Lou and I were on our own business. We worked really hard. We tried to build a good family for our, of a good house for our family and a nice home. And, and he said, well, you can tell yourself whatever you want. They'll let you sleep. But, oh, my gosh, he But all I see is a big shot. You think you're better than me? And it got really heated after that for about five minutes. He left, he never came back. And three months later he was dead in his little teeny shack he lived at in West Virginia.

How old were you during that time?

About 13.

Wow. What did, I mean, that's a memory that you still like alive in you today.

Yeah. I don't forget that day.

47, 48 years ago, right? that was a memory that your grandfather had with your father and your family.

What.

Psychological screen did you create in that moment that stuck with you, that benefited you and one that didn't benefit you?

Yeah.

Well, because money essentially that, you know, your dad tried to break a model of his father's to do something good, but it hurt the relationship with his father. that's right. It caused him. Maybe he could think it caused him to die. Maybe. Maybe not. But it could be like, it was so bad that he died alone because he had no family and he didn't want to be around me, whatever. He made up in his mind. So what was the benefit from you in seeing that experience versus, you know, a negative benefit?

The benefit in that was that dad stood up for his family.

Wow, it's powerful.

And stood up to his values and what he believed about America. and about freedom and about entrepreneurship and about helping other people and never expecting anything from expecting anything free or that you didn't earn. And that always stuck with me. On the other hand, when I was a kid, I did go through some stuff, you know, I had trouble studying in school and trouble reading, so I made up I'm stupid. I'd ask a girl to the dance and she would say no. And I think, oh, I'm not handsome enough, or I didn't get to be the captain on the football team. And so I started like, I'm dumb, I'm not handsome, I'm not attractive, I'm not man enough. And that was early on. That was like eighth grade and I got bullied in school. And so I had all these in my strategy, I heard your podcast with Pivot, my strategy was not unlike yours, which was to win at all costs. whatever I was going to do, if it's going to be sports, if it's going to be grades, if it's going to be drama club, if it's going to be whatever, I got to have the lead in the lead role. I got to be the captain. I got to, you know, win state championship and discus. I mean, I got to do all this or I'm not worth anything. And it got me through a little bit in life. But it ultimately would be a failed strategy. Right. Exactly.

What would you say are some things people should talk about before getting married about money? conversations. What questions did you ask your partner before getting married to make sure that you're at least setting yourself up in the right track of a healthy, successful marriage?

One of the things is I think both people would want to define what their purpose for money is and then make sure that those are synergistic and they work together.

So give me an example of what maybe yours was during that time?

Mine was love, to create love in the world. And hers was family, love, close second. So they were very synergistic. They worked really well together. She had a belief that her value as a human being was determined on her working. And that if she wasn't working, that she wouldn't have any value.

Interesting.

And that was something we had to work through because I wanted to be able to travel, I wanted to be able to do things with the kids, I wanted to be able, but she, her job, she was a physical therapist and went from, you know, home physical therapy, but she couldn't take time off.

Without thinking she's not valuable anymore.

Well, she would lose her job if she took as much time as I wanted to take off, she would lose her job.

And if she wasn't working, she was thinking, I'm not valuable.

I'm not valuable.

Interesting.

And so that was a money, kind of a money demon we had to work through.

Now, I guess she might think, I'm not valuable for myself, but also the fear could be, well, if I'm not working, he met me when I was working and providing for myself and independent. That's what turned him on potentially. so if i'm not doing that, will he still be turned on?

Yeah. And what if I turned out being, like, her last husband and then left her and then she'd given up her job. Right. And she has three kids to take care of.

And that fear.

So that fear of being left, being abandoned, and then what? Then what would she have?

I mean, it's a. It's a real fear, though, right?

I mean, it's real fear.

So she has to have a lot of trust in you that, okay, i'm gonna leave my job and. you're not gonna leave me.

Yeah.

How does a woman trust a man in that position who's already been divorced and been wounded, who's already been abandoned, who wants to make sure that doesn't happen again, who wants to provide for their family? How does a woman trust and have faith? What can she say to the man to feel safe?

I think it's. I think it's a. well, it was another interesting thing. So her ex-husband had told her that, and this just gutted me when I heard it the first time, had told her that, that because she had three kids, that no one would ever want her. Talk about a gut punch. I mean, that was just, we had the first day we went to Starbucks and had our first, you know, date together. We talked for, like, three hours.

Just as friends.

Yeah. Yeah. Just as friends from the first year. And, and I, that made me so mad. I was, and I don't know why, because I never really thought about getting divorced and maybe it was subconscious, but even from the time I was in college, I thought if I did ever marry somebody that had kids, I would love their kids the same way that I love them. And I would never let that be an obstacle to having a relationship. So when, when he was manipulating her like that and trying to control her and making her feel bad and really depressed about the whole thing. It really, really made me mad.

Wow.

But that was another one of her money demons was that, you know, she had kids and no guy was going to want to take that on.

So how did she learn to let go of that and trust you and have faith?

I think it was just tons of time and therapy and just lots of, lots and lots of discussions about things.

And probably your your actions matching your words consistently for her, right?

Most of our therapy had to do around the kids. I'm sure this kid's doing this, that parent's doing this, this kid needs that, and this kid needs that. And then working through all of those, working through all of those. We had a therapist once time tell us, you know, three years to get it all really aligned up and make it feel like one's family all the way. 10 years maybe?

10 years, yeah.

It takes a long time when you have that many players involved.

Now, but also when you got divorced, I'm assuming it affected your financial situation or your business. You had to either split or give up a large portion, or I'm assuming, unless I'm wrong, let me know. But how did you manage that money demon of, man, I worked so hard for this and now I've got to give up half or whatever it was.

Yeah.

How did you overcome that? And how did you, instead of being a victim to that situation, how did you start to shift and say, and use it for good? That's screaming.

Well, once I kind of came out of the sadness of, and some of the grief part of it, I was like, okay, now what am I going to do to make this, you know, mess into a message? And I had, we had a negotiator that helped negotiate the divorce. the mediator. And part of the mediation was, look, this is my company. I built this company. The income you're getting, the benefits, the money, everything you're getting is because I'm keeping this company running. And without me, there is no company. So I'm not going to let you double dip. I'm not going to give you half of the company and half of all the other stuff. In addition, you.

Right.

It's not.

You could just stop running the company.

I'll stop running the company, and I'll. I'll run it into a ditch.

Yeah, yeah.

And then I'm not very good at negotiating, but that was, I was firm on that. But you're getting a really great deal. You're going to get going with your life. You're going to, you got lots of great resources to go on and be happy. Do your own deal. But I'm not giving you my company. And that was, and I kept the company intact. That was, in retrospect, that was really, really good.

That's But you gave up a lot of your other or you gave a lot of your other assets and cash and yeah.

Yeah.

How did that make you feel though? That screen, did you say, you know what? This is creating freedom and peace for me and I'm okay with this.

And I just felt like it was worth it. Yeah. I was like, whatever it's going to take to get through this and move on with my life, it's just worth it.

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