Rachel Platten: “I Didn’t Sleep for 3 Days” Fighting Anxiety, Depression, and Hitting Rock Bottom

I was bottling it up and that's where the spiritual bypass comes in and is dangerous. I had learned this positive psychology of think good thoughts, manifest things, don't stay in the darkness because then I won't be able to manifest the good stuff and I'll just manifest more bad stuff. I think that that's really unhealthy. I wish more people talked about it and understood it from someone who's really suffered with their mental health. No matter how much love you receive, it's never going to be enough if you're not finding it within.

Rachel Platten is here.

She's an international singing star Emmy winner, songwriting sen. Rachel Platinum. I was at the lowest I've ever been in my life. I was terrified. I didn't know how to keep going. I screamed on the floor in my studio, mercy, mercy, I'm done. Little by little I looked at the dark. I turned them into songs. I transmuted my pain into art. I felt a presence that I never felt in my life. And I've always written with something, but I didn't know what it was that was flowing through me. And that night I knew without a doubt that that beautiful piece of art came through that pain. There had to be something bigger than me in this world. You just need one little light to light up the dark, right?

What would you say to your younger self on how to heal with the wisdom you have now?

I just wrote myself a letter. It's been so amazing.

Last year was just a transformative, life changing event.

Team Greatness is Great.

My name is Lewis Howes. Thanks so much for being here. And before we dive into this special video today, I want to remind you about the Summer Moment of Greatness, our annual conference happening this September in Los Angeles with David Goggins, Dr. Joe Dispenza and many more incredible speakers and performers. There will be so many live attendees there that you can meet with, you can network with, and you can help transform your life. Make sure to click the link in the description to get your tickets and I can't wait to see you at the summit of greatness here in Los Angeles. The Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid has a bold design, a spacious interior with 232 horsepower and a 12.3-inch panoramic display to keep the adventure going and fit with the way you live. And with SiriusXM, every drive comes alive, bringing you closer to the music, the sports talk and podcasts that you love right in your vehicle or on the SiriusXM app. Every SiriusXM equipped Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid includes a three month trial so the experience begins the moment you drive. Learn more@kia.com Sportage Hybrid Kia Movement that inspires this message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza from your local pizza place or a latte from the corner coffee shop. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and more@applecard.com the School of Greatness is sponsored by Capital One. Nowadays, most people subscribe to everything. Music, tv, even dog food. And it rocks until you have to manage it all, which is where Capital One comes in. Capital One Credit cardholder can easily track, block or cancel reoccurring charges right from the Capital One mobile app at no additional cost. With one sign in, you can manage all your subscriptions all in one place. Learn more@Capital1.com Subscriptions Terms and Conditions apply. Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring Rachel Platten in the house. Welcome, my neighbor, my friend, to the foundation of Greatness. This is the basement, this is the home HQ where we're doing the School of Greatness. And it's so good to see you here. So thanks for being here. We are neighbors for people that don't know, which is for me, one of my favorite things. When I moved into this home, knowing that I didn't know you lived in the neighborhood, but now I saw you walking around one day and I was like, do you live here? And you're like, yeah, right here. I was like, no way.

Across the street.

It's incredible. So I'm so grateful. Every time I leave my home, I know that you're there. I feel peace and harmony.

So I feel the same way.

Feels good.

Me too.

Feels good. Welcome here. You've been on the show twice now. It's your third time, I think, right?

Yeah, but do I beat anyone? Am I like the most time we've.

Had some more people on? I think a few, few more times. But three's a lot.

I mean, it's pretty good.

If you come back a second time, that's a big deal. If you come back a third time, maybe only like 10 people have been on three times. So it's a big deal. You're here.

I forced my way on.

Yeah, yeah. Right now. No, I'm here to support. There's a lot that's happened since I met you. Probably when 2018, 2019.

It was earlier than that.

Was it.

I really think. I think it was, like, closer to 2016.

Really?

Yeah.

Okay.

Because it was.

Right.

Fight Song was before my second record. Yeah.

Interesting. Okay.

Right.

And, yeah, we. We. We connected back then, so it's probably been like eight years.

Right.

So. And I've watched you through the journey of the last eight years. You know, we go on walks sometimes. I hear about the stuff you've been on in the last even two years, the last six months even.

Yeah.

And there's a lot that's happening in your life. A lot has happened in your career, your health, family, all these different things. And I want to talk about how you've been able to manage it all, from essentially driving in a van, you know, for almost a decade around the country, performing your songs to small audiences, you know, five, 10, 30 people at a time, sometimes living rooms. Living rooms and living out of a van, essentially some nights, to then having the number one song in the world with Fight Song in 2016, around then. To then, you know, starting a family and kind of taking some time off from music. Not fully, but not driving the music career at the highest level and not being, let's say, at number one, peak position. Relevance, as you were with Fight Song for a few years and now trying to come back through a whole healing journey. And even last year alone, you know, you were struggling. We've gone some long walks together, and you were, like, emotionally struggling. You were trying to figure out kind of meaning, purpose, you know, what am I doing? Should I watch more music? All these different things.

Am I okay? Yeah.

Postpartum stuff with. With kids. So my first question is, how are you doing.

Man? Hearing it all reflected from someone that knows you and sees you is really wild, because I'm just living, you know, in my own mind, in own body, and experiencing it through my own eyes, but hearing it all. It's wild. If you were telling me that story and I was listening to a podcast and that was the setup for, like, someone you were about to interview, I'd be like, yeah, how the heck is she doing? I'm doing well. I really am doing well. And I. I'm really happy right now. I'm tired, and I'm a little overwhelmed.

Yeah.

But I'm really happy.

What are you overwhelmed with?

Really proud of where I'm at. I feel really strong and. And I feel really energized and I feel really on purpose again, and I feel really supported and loved, and I feel okay. You know, I feel like. And it's a miracle, I did not know on those walks that we took, on those long nights of insomnia and that we can get into all that, I did not know that I would ever be able to be back here. So I'm really proud.

What does back here mean?

Back here, like, about to release a record, you know, of doing this again. Like, it's wild. I'm putting out a body of work in three weeks or. I don't know when this will come out, but September 3rd, and it is my favorite thing I've ever created. I really feel like it's the first proper introduction of me to the world. And I am incredibly proud to be here again, you know, to be, like, healthy enough to put myself out there and be vulnerable and balance it enough with my kids who are very little. And, you know, I'm just. I love who I've become. I'm really proud. This joy that I feel is earned, you know, it's. It's not an untested joy. It's an earned, earned confidence. And I have found these tools that are amazing, and I've learned how to support myself and give myself what I was always looking outside for. So I feel ready.

Wow. Speaking of tools, I've heard you talk in a. In a recent interview about how being in la, a lot of people spiritually bypass their feelings and they just lean right into positivity. Positivity. Only think good thoughts, you know?

Yeah, I did that for years. Yeah.

What were the tools that supported you from feeling your feelings without getting caught and depressed in them?

Yeah.

And. And also, not just spiritually bypassing, but being able to get to a healthy place in your mind and in your body at the same time.

Yeah, it's such a good question. I mean, it was probably the most important thing I've learned because as an artist, as a songwriter, my emotional range is humongous. As a mother, a new mother, already that range is expanded. So I'm a songwriting new mom. I mean, it's a mess in there, and I had to learn how to allow it all and how to work with it and love myself through all of it. And it's as I teach my daughters, that it's okay to feel your feelings. I learn it for myself. So I think a lot of it has been mothering. It's so interesting. I'm sure any parent knows, as you go through the different ages of your child, you revisit those ages in yourself. So I've had to do a lot of healing around 3 year old Rachel and then 4 year old Rachel and 5 year old and my daughter just went to kindergarten three days ago. And I couldn't believe how much I remembered from kindergarten that never was there. So there were a lot of ways I did it. One of the most profound was a journaling practice that a woman whose work is called. Sorry, her name is Nicole Sacks and she has an amazing, amazing community and a podcast that is called the Cure for Chronic Pain. And I don't know if I told you, but I also, in addition to dealing with the anxiety journey and the postpartum journey, I dealt with. I think you knew this. I dealt with chronic pain.

Yeah.

For two years.

So in healing your back.

My hip. Right, right. But what I learned was it was all the same thing. My back pain was, my anxiety really was, my headaches was my. Yep, all the same things.

What were you anxious about?

I mean, what wasn't I anxious about? I was a mess. Like, I. My hormones, first of all, were completely out of whack after giving birth twice. I'm really rocked by hormones. Anyway, I'm 43, so I'm probably somewhat perimenopausal. I'm not sure exactly where, but I was anxious about the pandemic. I was anxious about having a new baby. I was anxious about how would my older child fit in with a younger child. I was anxious about will, my career like we talked about. Will I ever be relevant again? Will it? Is it done? Did my moment happen? Is it over? I was anxious about money. If I'm the breadwinner, you know, what am I going to do? I was terrified. There was so much. I was anxious. My mom had cancer, you know, it was like, it was just so much. And my husband passed a kidney stone and like, my uncle died and just life like mine's no worse than what everyone else is experiencing, but just life. And it all piled up. And I was bottling it up. I was bottling it up. And that's where the spiritual bypass comes in and is dangerous for me. It was dangerous because I had learned this kind of positive psychology of like, well, think good thoughts, manifest things. You know, don't stay in the darkness because then I won't be able to manifest the good stuff and I'll just manifest more bad stuff. And I think that that's really unhealthy. I wish more people talked about it and understood it from someone who's really suffered with their mental health. When you have feelings that you're repressing for enough time, there's only so much that this well can hold until it starts spilling over. Once your nervous system. Once it starts spilling over, your nervous system signals, oh, my gosh, we're in fight or flight right now. We're not okay. And your whole body starts reacting in different ways. Whether it's your hip or your migraines or my voice or anxiety or panic attacks or dissociation, they were all the same thing. So I needed to learn how to dip a ladle in and scoop out the reservoir. And how I did that was through therapy, medication, journaling, actually getting in touch, EMDR actually getting in touch with the suppressed rage, fear, grief that we all have as humans. But we learn really early on, like, think of a toddler having a tantrum. We learn really early on that those emotions aren't acceptable and we repress them. And that's not a bad thing. Like, we have to get along in the world, you know? But when that emotional well gets too full and it is a bad thing because our body chooses pain. It's think it's safe. It's like safe in the unsafest way. It chooses pain over experiencing the true terror, rage, or pain you're feeling. So I had to go in and just look at all that and hold myself and say, rach, we're going to look and you're going to be okay, and we're going to look safely and we're going to look resourced. And little by little, I looked at the dark. I turned them into songs. I transmuted my pain into art. I saw it and I shone a lot. It's like shining a light in the dark all of a sudden you just need one little light to light up the dark, right? I just put on one little light in the dark and I started looking around and I realized this isn't so dangerous. You know, it's scary and it's hard, but I'm not going to die.

What were you most scared of facing during postpartum?

Depression and anxiety? I think the scariest thing that I needed help from EMDR with was insomnia. I felt the insomnia I was experiencing. I'm sorry.

Couldn't sleep.

I couldn't sleep. And there was a time when you might have been my neighbor at this point. There was a time for three nights that I was up, just not a wink of sleep, not a second.

And the terror causing that is it. It was my hormones, anxiety, or a.

Hormone yeah, no, it was. It was. It was my hormones. It was like the drop in progesterone and stress and, like, it was a month after giving birth. So the hormones are rocked and, like, in your body and your body's trying to rebalance itself, and mine has a particularly hard time. And I wish I had listened to my friend Gabby Bernstein, who has been on your podcast and is a dear friend, and I honestly think she helped to save my life because she told me, rachel, enough Reiki meditation, praying it away. Like, go get some effing medication. Go get on a benzo to help you sleep, Knock yourself out, get on an SSRI and get some real support. And I was terrified of medication. Terrified. And I've heard this story so many times now online from other women like me. Like, we think, oh, we have to be perfect. Or, you know, we can. We have all these, like, incredible tools. We can go to a intuitive and they'll help us, like, whatever.

Meditation, Reiki.

That's where I think LA can be a little dangerous in that stuff. Like, I can Reiki it away. I can pray. I mean, I. I got certified in Reiki. And nothing against it, but that doesn't help when you're like, hormones are going crazy and you aren't sleeping and you're having panic attacks.

So it can also be dangerous in the extreme of like, okay, now I'm just going to do microdosing all day long. Ayahuasca every weekend. And it's too extreme.

Exactly. Everything. If you're okay, basically, and you're, like, using those as tools to open up and heal, that's beautiful. But if you're really, like, having suicidal. Suicidal ideation or. Which I wasn't. But if you're in a really dark spot, it's really dangerous to rely on. Know something that I don't know isn't actually medically supervised.

Sure, but she encourages you.

She said to me, she's like, rachel, please go have. Here's my psychiatrist. Call her. Get some medication, call your OB GYN.

And get back on track.

Get on track. And what I did with my therapist was realized it took a long time to, like, allow myself to fail, you know, And I'm putting quotations around it for people listening. Like, I saw that as a failure. I'm not good enough.

Like, taking medication, I wasn't strong enough.

I'm the fight song girl. I should be able to will myself out of this depression like I did last time. But I did. I finally relented. And it really helped that my dad Is a. You know, was trained as an industrial organizational psychologist, but a clinical psychiatrist before that. My mom's a therapist. My sister has been on an ssri. I had a ton of friends around me. Rachel, you're going to be okay. Like, you're not failing. This isn't bad. You're not. I was terrified of breastfeeding with it and going into my baby. Like, I was so afraid of all of it. But ultimately I made the choice. And it. It saved my life.

Really.

It saved.

It allowed you to sleep. Allowed you to calm down.

Allowed me to sleep instantly. After months of not sleeping. I slept like a baby that first night. And. But I woke up to my husband having a kidney stone and someone. I was like. I slept. And my nanny came, and she's like, okay, Kevin's in the hospital.

Really?

Yeah. I was f'd.

What happened with him?

I'm really proud of myself for not swearing. I just want to say, like, I just really want some problems. I don't know. We just had a kidney stone. I don't know how we get that. I have stress. I don't know. His wife was falling apart. He was probably like, wasn't great. Things weren't great. So I slept. I was okay. My therapist put it like this. This medication is going to be the scaffolding so that we can start actually building the building. Without the scaffolding in place, it doesn't matter how much work we're doing. Nothing is going to be, you know, start to get built.

Yes.

So you need these. You need the structure so that we can actually. So the work we're doing is actually effective. And she was right. Because I worked. I have worked incredibly hard. Five years of amazing therapy. I have the most incredible therapist, and I've worked so hard with her, but without the support of that. Those medications, I. I don't think it would have been. It would have been a drop in the bucket.

What do you think was causing facial expression? I think so. Dropping the bucket. Okay.

It's good stuff.

What do you think was, I guess, causing you the most overwhelm in terms of emotions or thoughts? Is it. Is it an anxiety feeling? Is it more of a depression feeling? Is it worry? Is it shame? Is it. What is the emotion or feeling that is causing the most stress?

Yeah. When I looked at it, I asked. I looked all the way in and I asked, what is here underneath it all? And I found out that the fear, the primal fear for me, and we all have different primal fears, but mine is that I was alone. That Ultimately, I was alone. I wasn't loved by God. I was all alone in this world. And that was my primal fear during.

This whole time of kind of stress and anxiety and depression during the whole time.

I think what was underneath all of it was that I'm alone in this world. And I have since learned how untrue that is, how deeply loved I am, how connected to God I am. And I just. But at the time, that was what I was always most afraid of.

Why do you think that was in your subconscious or in your body consistently, when you had family, your parents are here, you've got.

I wrote songs and songs about fans. Yes. Like millions of people, I could look online and look. And how funny and ironic, how empty that is. But listen, it is the most amazing thing to learn because it isn't going to fill you, no matter how many people are around you. You know this, too. No matter how much love you receive, it's never going to be enough if you're not finding it within.

That's true.

And so I never was really learning to find it within. I was kind of like, hungry, like a hungry ghost. Tara Brock says I love her work. You know, you're just like, grabbing for more and more and more and scrolling for more and more. And like, I had two beautiful daughter who were healthy, and I had a husband that loved me and family that was around me, loving me, and none of it was going to be enough ever, really, if I hadn't filled the. Well, no, because, Louis, like, I wasn't giving it to myself. Do you know what I mean?

Why weren't you.

Why don't any of us. I don't know. I hadn't learned how. I don't know.

How did you learn? When did you learn how to give it to yourself? And what are the things that make you feel that you've loved yourself and that you're not alone?

Well, I can give you an example. This morning, even I am overwhelmed right now. My record's coming out in two and a half weeks. My daughter just started kindergarten. My three year old has decided she doesn't want to sleep anymore. I mean, like, it's. It's crazy.

You're not sleeping. You've got bills to pay. You've got all these things.

Yeah, like, my husband's the president of our label. We're in it together. We have all our ducks on the, like, you know, everything's. What's the worst question? All of the fires are on. Like, we're just. I have not nailed any of the Expressions. But whatever.

We're.

We're in it. This is it. This is it. This body of work that I love more than anything is about to come out. And this morning I woke up, took Violet to kindergarten. She fly. Sorry. She cried and clung to me. She didn't want to go. It's new. She's having big feelings. My 3 year old cried and, like, you know, didn't want me to leave the house. I'm leaving for rehearsal. Then I had a show and then I had a voice lesson. Now I have this, like, it's all stacked up, right? So I'm overwhelmed. And I had a moment in the car, this moment after this morning, after the gym, and I just felt just. I don't have anything left. I am depleted. I'm so exhausted. What am I going to do? How am I going to balance this all? How am I going to do okay today at these shows, these things, interviews? And I sat there and I remembered, I put a hand on my heart. I have so many tools now. And I said, richie, what do you need? Like a mom to her daughter? What do you need, my love? What do you need right now? And I listened and I heard. I need to cry. And I held myself and I let myself cry. And I mothered myself. I mothered myself. I loved myself. And I just lovingly said to myself, you know, Rach, you don't have to be perfect. Just show up. God's gonna do the rest today. You just show up today, baby. One interview at a time. One thing at a time. One breath at a time. It's gonna be okay. I love you. You're allowed to fail. You're allowed to not be perfect. Who cares? And I was able to get on with the day with joy and with hope and feeling supported. And I just took it all a little bit less seriously. So those are the tools I'm using is like checking in with myself and re parenting myself.

Because it can feel like a lot is on the line, you know, it can feel like, oh, I've spent years building this record and it's coming out. It has to do well, otherwise it's a failure. I'm a failure. All this money invested or whatever the opinions or thoughts are, right?

Yeah.

Or it's, oh, what if I never get back to where I was in the past?

Oh, my God, I've worked through that one already.

Really?

Oh, my God, I don't care. Who cares? I don't need to be where I was. Who's ever gonna recreate, like, the number one song in the world.

Imagine a bottle.

It's like, come on.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm not gonna recreate it, so let me just enjoy what I'm doing now. I'm so proud. Wherever it goes is not up to me.

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For my press release that I was so proud of. And I like burst into tears and I was like, yes, I'm always crying basically. And I was like. And I wrote, I said this album is already a triumph.

Yes.

Because it saved my life.

Wow.

And anything else that comes from it is gravy.

That's a good thing. That's a good perspective because I remember my first book came out in 2015 and I was so stressed about launching my first big project. Right. And I really wanted to be a New York Times bestseller.

I know.

And I, and I hit it and I was like, okay. Like it felt good, right? Yeah. It didn't soul like the heavens didn't open up and like all my problems were solved. It wasn't like millions of dollars just flooded to me. It really didn't do anything. But it was just was a little.

Something you needed again.

Yeah. It's like you hit number one song on the Billboard. It's like, okay, that's a cool feeling. Right? It's a validation. Right. And so then I launched another book two years later. And I remember being like, okay, I really need to hit the New York Times again. And it didn't hit and I got really angry for like a couple of weeks. I couldn't enjoy the process. And at the same time, this book was probably my most meaningful piece of work ever because it was about how men can heal and how men can take the masks off and that even though it hasn't sold the most or whatever been the biggest hit, so many men Email me and tell me. It's how it's healed them.

Yeah.

Right. And how. It's like, even if one person.

Yes.

It impacted and it helped them, it was worth it.

Yes.

Right. And so on my last book, I remember feeling the same way that you did recently, which is like, I completed the book. It's already a success.

Yes.

Even if it doesn't sell. Whatever. It helped me process. It helped me get clearer on my life. It helped me grieve whatever it is, you know, it's therapeutic. And if it can help one person or thousands or millions, then great. It's a blessing.

That is. Exactly.

And trying to let go of the. The end result of it needing to hit a certain thing, I mean, it.

Isn'T up to me. It isn't up to you.

It's challenging, though. It's challenging.

I mean, it is, but I've been doing this now for 20 years, and. And so I have. Really. I say that. I mean it. You know, I can stand behind what I'm saying. I. I took a lot of work, and even this summer, I was thrashing and angry at God and, like, I want more. I want more. I want. And I had to work through it again.

Like, summer.

Yeah. Like, just like two months ago. I mean, I have this whole time been so surrendered and so at peace and so excited for the most part about this project, basically because, like, every day I'm excited to wake up because I'm not waking up with anxiety or pain. I. It's so easy to love life when you've been in such a dark place. And I don't take anything for granted or I try not to. I mean, I forget sometimes. Sometimes. But, yeah, I had a moment, like, I had a week or two this summer where I wanted something else and I wanted something more and I wanted some festivals or whatever it was that my ego at the moment wanted to feel important and feel. And I had to work through it all over again. But it was a quicker process this time. And I just. It was like kind of like, you know when you're learning a lesson and you feel like you've learned it, but then there's one final, like, test. Right. That was it.

And surrender.

Yeah. And then after that, after crying for a week and mad at God, I fully surrender.

I think we don't learn the lesson until we learn to create a boundary around the thing that we. That we're really trying to create. Right. It's like, until you're able to create a boundary with that relationship you have with Needing more.

Yes. Yes.

When you created that boundary and you said, actually, I'm fine with whatever happens and I'm going to show up fully as me and I'm going to do my best and I'm going to be.

Exactly going to try any less hard. Yeah, I'm surrendered, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to hope for it. Now. My attitude is, wouldn't it be nice if it was on the chart again? Wouldn't it be nice? How fun would that be? What a delight. But I don't need it.

Yeah.

And also, you know what helped me do that is my husband is running our label and he has shown me the breakdown of being an indie artist for a major versus a major label artist. I literally, for my life, to support my family, don't need it to be.

A major thing as an indie artist.

As an indie artist, because I have.

Rights and you have more.

I own my masters, I own most of the publishing. I am the primary writer on most of the songs and I produced it myself with my two best friends who are Grammy winners. It's not like a bunch of friends, you know, like, they're incredible. But yeah, the financials on it and now I'm lucky because I already have a fan base. So it's hard because I'll say this, like, you don't need to be on a label, but if you've had a hit, it makes it a bit easier. Yeah. So I have a fan base, but the thing is, I don't actually need it to do. I don't need my beautiful body of work to be anything other than it is. It can go into the world. It already has supported us from the four songs I've released. The streaming that it's doing, it's already brought in. Yes.

Revenue and.

Yes.

Wow.

And it's. It's crazy what artists are convinced that they need from major labels because the tiny little, like percentage that you earn of your masters is nothing. I'm sorry. Yeah. Is nothing. You need it to be a gigantic hit in order to see money. So I've learned my lesson.

I mean, for example, I mean, I think Fight Song has almost a billion streams on Spotify.

Yeah. Just on Spotify alone. Over. I think across everything, it has like 2 or 2 billion. Wow.

It's amazing. YouTube and Apple and everywhere else.

It is 3 billion with everything.

3 billion.

Yeah.

It's incredible.

Yeah.

But if, if, if a label owns that.

I've never really bragged about that.

Right. Three billion streams across everything. That's Amazing. But if a label owns that, that you get a much smaller piece than if you owned that. It would be like 10, 20, 50 times more.

Yeah, exactly.

Really?

If I owned the master of her fight song, kid, we wouldn't be in the same neighborhood. This is a lovely place. No, but I am going to get to re record it because I will. The master reverts to me and I'm going to re record it. Like Taylor did her versions, I'm going to do my versions.

But how does that work? Does that actually work? Does it when she re recorded.

I mean she's Taylor so like she is the whole entire world listening. I don't know if people will choose my Rachel's version to stream but it will be the 10th anniversary and so I think that there will be some movement attention around like wildfire will turn 10. That's the record that had Stand by youy and Better Place and Fight Song and so I'm gonna do like four or five of them.

That's cool.

Reimagined in the sound and the sonics of this new record, which is quite a departure from the early stuff.

Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know anything about this world, but when she. Because she re recorded it like a year or two ago. Right. Is that something.

She's been in the process of it, I think over the last four years.

How is that done?

She goes into the studio and she just.

I mean, she's launched it already, right? Or no. Has she launched some songs?

Yeah. Do you mean how is it done? Like sonically or how is it done?

She's remastered them, right?

She's not remastered them, she's actually recreated them. Yeah, exactly.

Gotcha.

Yeah. Yeah.

But she's launched some of them.

She's launched. Yeah.

And she's making money off them.

Yes.

Really?

It's amazing.

So people aren't listening to the original, they're listening to a new version.

I don't think it matters with her audience because it's so massive that people are just. She like people are listening to everything she puts out.

Right, Gotcha. Okay. Yeah.

I mean it was the smartest thing.

Yeah. Really smart.

Yeah.

Yeah. Your album is amazing. I went to your. I think it was your first. I mean, I was in your back house, like as you're finishing songs and three years ago, sharing stuff. Two years. A year and a half ago. Two years ago you're like, I just finished the song and you played Mercy for me. Yeah. It was incredible. And you're like, yeah, we're still editing it, you know, or whatever, but it was like amazing to hear it live as you're finishing it and then watching you at the Troubadour. I think it was like six months ago. Kind of like share it for the first time, these songs to the public. You have a. You have one song called Bad Thoughts. And I know you're big on visualization and manifest. Manifesting, right? You think about manifesting.

Not like I was.

You used to be.

I used to be.

Used to be. But not anymore.

Well, I feel a little bit more like. I don't know. Have you read Michael Singer's books? Yeah, the Surrender Experiment?

I haven't read that one, but.

The Untethered Soul.

Yeah, the Untethered Soul.

Yeah. I mean, I have a tricky thing with manifesting. I did the other day. My friend is very into it. Eight. Eight. Like Lionsgate. She's like, we gotta manifest, we gotta manifest. But I feel a little bit like I'm not so in control as I thought I was. And it's kind of a good feeling. I kind of feel a little bit more peace and a little bit more faith and a little bit more just feel deeply connected to God and like we're co creating together. And it's not so much up to me to think the right way or visualize the right thing or like think so perfectly. Because the danger with that is if you went through a mental health battle, you know that you are not in control of your thoughts. And if you have. If you believe that you are for the good, that means you have to believe that you are when you're thinking something that is very scary and terrifying. And I had to give up that belief and let myself off the hook.

And if you have bad thoughts consistently, do you feel like you can create a meaningful life and have your dreams come true?

I think what our job is is to be honest with what we're thinking. I don't think we should let it ever run away with it. Like, I don't think we should give it. It free reign. We have to make sure that the self is in there. Do you. Have you done any ifs work? Yeah, yeah, I love that stuff. So, like, capital S. Self.

I had Frank on who's like the big.

Yeah, yeah, I'd love. I gotta listen to that episode. Yeah, it's amazing. You have to make sure that the self is in there because the person, usually that's the version of you, the self that's in there, that's. That is feeling all that fear and anxiety and devastation and rage. Is only just a part of you. It's not the real you, the centered you. The centered you that. That's one with God and one with everything. So, look, I mean, you're not going to give it the wheel of the bus, but I also think that denying it and shutting it out and being scared of it is the wrong thing. At least it was for me, you know, then it just was denying what actually is. So in my deep struggle, when every day was negative scary thoughts, every day was panic, every day was dissociated dissociation, there was nothing I could do. There was no amount of, like, manifesting I could do to force those thoughts away. I had at some point to just say, this is what's here. I love you, Rachel. I love you and I accept you. I'm here anyway. I love you anyway. And so I really believe now that I don't want to look at anyone and be like, get rid of those thoughts. I just want to hold them and hug them and teach them through my songs, through my own life, how to love themselves and say, I love all of me. I love the scary thoughts that are here. I love the bad thoughts. I love the fear. I love the anxiety because I'm human and it all is what's here. It just is already here. What are we going to do? Push it away? To actually change something has to start with radical acceptance of what is. And so real change only happens once you say yes to what actually is here. And that's why I think the manifesting can be a little tricky. At least the way I was doing it and learning it and how I see people doing it online and, like, talking about it, I'm more like, hey, yes, yes. But first, meet what's here first. Let it all come up and love it.

Yeah.

And then once it's not a terrified little screaming child inside of you demanding your attention, trying to grab the wheel. Once you bring capital S self back, like the God self, back into. And back into there. Sorry. Back onto the bus and say, hi. Hi, my love. I'm here. I see you're afraid. And you can be on this bus with me, but you can't drive because you're five.

Right, exactly.

Or 10 or 15 or whatever age they were trying.

That's what. That's what I think. If your anxiety or bad thoughts are running your life.

Yeah.

It's going to be hard to create something fulfilling. And if you create something hard to live, and if you create something from a place of lack or anxiety, it's not going to feel enough, you know, what you're creating, it's not going to feel like you're safe still. You're going to need more. More, More.

Yeah.

As opposed to accepting where you're at. Yeah, I guess that's what my question was around that. But. So how do we navigate then? Because we grew up in the 80s, early 80s, and for me it was, you know, don't talk about feelings at all. It was like, don't cry, don't talk about feelings. Just like, do your job. You know, essentially, don't act like a child.

Right.

That's kind of what it is.

Right?

Like, shut up.

It's not acceptable.

Yeah, exactly.

Shut it down.

Where, you know, being in la, I see more of an extreme side of like, if a child is having a breakdown, it's like, okay, let's talk for 90 minutes about your feelings every single day. Let's address your feelings. Let's get on our knees and look at our children, like all day long and just share your feelings. Share your feelings. Share your feelings.

Parents really have it hard right now.

Like we're being told, no.

It is so confusing. You're just. We're being told, like, gentle parenting has been totally misunderstood.

Yeah.

Boundaries are essential. We're, you know, anyway, keep going.

But I, I mean, yeah, I have.

My own thoughts about.

I feel like there's. Again, I don't have kids yet, but I know you have this and you're around like other moms and parents and schools and so you're seeing this. I almost feel like there's an another extreme that's happened since when we grow up.

Too permissive. Too permissive to have any feelings.

Scream all day, run around, you know, do whatever. No boundaries, no struggle, structure.

No, that is not what I think.

And I feel like either side has its problems of, of developing young children into having some type of anxiety, stress or problematic symptoms as teens and adults.

Yes.

Whether it be an entitlement or lack of drive or whatever it might be. Right.

Yeah.

I mean, how can we, how can we address that in this time and age when we haven't. When certain adults haven't learned the tools on how to love and self. Soothe and self. Parent.

Yeah.

But also raising children without needing them to like you because there's going to be a lot of times they're not going to like you.

Yeah.

And not just giving in to them constantly so that they have your approval. How do you learn?

Come back to me when you're a dad. I'm like, literally, you have no idea. What you're talking about. No, I'm messing with you.

How do you. How do you.

I love you and I love this conversation, but I gotta tell you, when you can have all the ideas about what you think people should be doing and how you think people think people should be parenting, until you are actually met with a tantrum in public and your own child, my God, I had all the judgments and how I was gonna do things and what I was gonna do and how. And. And one kid to two kids. I mean, it is a show. It is like.

Yeah. How do you navigate it? I have no idea. I don't know.

I'm still learning. My oldest is only 5. I still finding out what kind of mom I am. I'm still figuring it out. My parents were permissive and then scary, authoritative.

Really?

Like. Like cheering me on, rooting me on, and then terrifying loud noises, doors slamming, scary stuff. So I am really anti yelling and screaming in my house. But I've had to learn with my therapist and in couples therapy, I've had to learn what is my way of setting a firm boundary with my children. Because they cannot be jerks. They cannot be entitled. I will not raise those children. And also, they're being raised very different than I am. With so much money, with so much privilege, with beauty and all the stuff that. I mean, I was pretty cute, but we didn't have money. It was a very different life. It wasn't like, yeah, anything you want you could have at any moment. So my husband and I are figuring this out as we go in real time. And I have to find my way of having firm boundaries, because my way is not yelling. My husband's is yelling, and I hate it. And he doesn't yell all the time, but when, like, you really mess with him, he will scream at the girls, and they will just look at him like, what the hell is going. They're terrifying. And I have a really big problem with that because I do like, more of the gentle parenting. But with gentle parenting, you have to have firm boundaries. You have to stick to them. You have to do what you say you're gonna do, because if any of that is lax, then you will raise an entitled child. But for me, I've really learned that, like, and it's the same with myself. The way that I parent myself is the way I'm parenting my children. It is allowed. Your feelings are valid. They are allowed. They are not allowed to hurt someone else. They are not allowed to get in the way of your life and, like. Right. But they are going to be heard and witnessed. And they are all okay because you're human and they're part of being human. And we're going to love and support you and help you kind of move, I don't know, raise what's below to the light. Right. So that it's not trapped down there. I don't want my daughters to think that they aren't allowed to cry and have tantrums, but they can do it in their room and they can do it in a safe place and they cannot hurt each other and they cannot hurt themselves. Right.

It's like I'm asking you.

I don't know. I mean, I don't know either. I'm figuring it out. I know.

Don't. Yeah.

I don't know. It's so hard to be a mom. And, like, I'm learning as I go.

Yeah, that's. I mean, how do you. I mean, for moms or women who want to be moms but also want to have their careers or have a dream that they want to pursue their art or their music or whatever it might be, what do you say to them before they become a mom? If they want to also be the breadwinner, also be earning full time, like working full time as an artist or a career individual. And having one child has got to be one of the hardest things. To be a mom full time and then have the energy and the thought capacity to create beyond being a mom. Well, it's got to be one of the hardest things.

It was one of the things that I thought would. I thought that they would be opposites. Before I became a mom, I thought that if I had children, it would steal my creativity, that my creativity would suffer. And what I have learned is that it could not be more, it could not be less true. Really, it is the opposite. My creativity has expanded so much. I mean, think of the act of creating a child. It is the most creative you will ever be in your life. Right. You are literally creating a human. You are so tapped in to divine, to creation, to magic. To magic. Once you create a human, you can create anything. Like, my songs flowed so easy, as if God turned on a faucet that just never got shut off. And creating for me is so much more easy and natural and flows. I mean, first of all, the range of what I feel from being, becoming a mom, as we said earlier, is so much more wide and like wild and just.

Life experience.

Life experience. So I have so much to pull from. I mean, I can like harness and transmute all that Terror and grief and rage. I told you, I went down and witnessed and I can turn them into things. This beautiful art that still actually sounds joyful somehow. There's joy in the pain that I'm singing about.

But how do you have the energy and the capacity to create? You might have ideas and like it might flow when you have energy and time, but when you're a full time mom and even if your kids are in school or you have daycare or nanny support every now and then, whether it might be or babysitters for a few hours a day, you're still thinking about your kids all day long. You're still, your body's still responding to healing. After a first few years, you still need energy. You're all night because your child what's the bed or come in and they sleep with you and they're kicking you all night or whatever it is. It's beautiful. But it's also challenging. Like how do you have energy during the day to be a full time mom, a full time creator and bring in the money to support?

Well, first of all, my husband has since started working for me and now is a partner. And so it's amazing. He's bringing more income in from having come in and transformed my business. So it's not all on me anymore. And that has been a gigantic relief.

It's big. Yeah, it's amazing for women, it just want to generate money, you know, they want to make money also as well as being moms.

Okay, I have two things. I have two thoughts on this. One is I want you to think about the busiest time in your life. How productive were you when you only had a 30 minutes to be productive? Very productive verse when you had nothing going on and you had all day.

Very productive. But there's a time you're gonna crash at some point.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay. You're doing that every day for months.

I crashed this morning, but Taylor taught me, Taylor Swift taught me when I fight song was exploding. And we were like. And I met her and I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I have to be in Paris and then Japan and then I don't know how to do this. And she said, you aren't gonna have days off, you are gonna have moments off. You're gonna draw all your energy back in in moments at a time. So that's one thing.

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Now at my calendar. My calendar is insane. I cannot look at it for the next three months. It is packed every day. It's insane. But.

But this is a season of life too.

You're like three months. Exactly, Exactly.

You're all in.

I'm all in. My husband and I are all in. We have everyone around us, supporting us.

You're saying yes to everything.

Yep. So that's where I'm at right now. It's just a season. I've been doing this long enough to know now this isn't forever. This is right now. I also have incredible moments off and days off and weeks off because of the career I chose. So there will be a lull, and I will get to be around my babies all day long, and it will be delicious. Okay, that's my one thought. And then the other thought I have is that my spiritual practice has been absolutely essential in keeping my energy up. I didn't have this tool before. I didn't have this deep connection to God before. And now that I do, I literally give it to God. I literally say, you do it. I write, I want to show you what I write. I want to show you.

What do you say?

I make a check mark for God. And before a show, I do it before something I'm scared of. Before a day, before an intense performance. I literally write a list of what I'm scared of. I made this up. I don't know if this is, like, people are gonna listen and be like, what the hell is she talking about? But I want you to imagine three columns. The first column, I write down all my fears and all my worries and all my stress. The second column, I write down my job, and I write, like, what do you mean? Like, okay, I'll tell you. I'll give you an example. Let's say I was doing one about the Lewis podcast. I'm nervous. I love Lewis. This podcast is huge. I want to do a good job. I want people to. I want to come off well. I want people to go listen to my music. I want to be successful, right? What is my job? My job, what God tells me my job is, is to breathe, be in the moment, give it to him, and have fun. That's it. That's my job. And then I write the third column, what's God's job? And on God's column is everything.

Everything.

Make it go so well. Make me adorable, hilarious, funny, charming. You do it. And then, like, make it the most successful pod. Make Lewis love it. And, like, whatever. God has all this to do, and then I make a checkbox for him, and I crack up, and I write. I write on it. Go, God, go. Yay, God. Don't worry. You can do it, God. And I cheer him on. It's, like, ridiculous. It's, like, so ridiculous. And then I crack up because I look at my job versus God's.

Job.

And I'm like, oh, bro, you have a lot of work to do. I'm gonna go chill, but good luck to you. And then I come back and I remember to check him off, and I give him a pluses and I'm like, very good job. And I, like, give him stickers. And he has not failed me ever.

Wow.

And that's what I do for energy.

What do you think is the difference between putting all the weight and pressure on you to do a good job and perform versus allowing God in your life to deliver?

I don't have to do anything. I have to show up. I have to show up and I have to be the clearest vase that I can. God is the flowers. My job is literally just to be the clearest vase for people to see them. And that's hard work. It takes hard work to be a clear vase. But I can do that. I can't shine and shimmer. I can't guarantee people will love me. I can't be delightful and perfect and pleasing. Right? But I can do my work to be a clear vase. I can meditate, I can do my breath work, I can have therapy. I can work out. I can keep my body healthy. I can keep my mind healthy. That's my job in being a clearvase. Right. And the pressure's off. Other than that, my job is not what are people gonna think of me? My job is not how am I gonna come off? What is the success going to be? What is the result going to be? It is literally just to be the best version I can.

When did you start this practice of giving it up to God?

In the middle of the darkest depression When I had no other choice.

A couple years ago.

Yeah, a couple years ago when I was completely at a loss on my knees in the studio that you came to a couple times on my knees in the middle of the night at 2am My baby had had 105 degree temperature that night. She was 2 months old. My husband had passing a kidney stone. I wasn't sleeping. I was absolutely at the lowest. My uncle just died. I was at the lowest I've ever been in my life. I was terrified. I didn't know how to keep going. And I screamed on the floor of my studio, mercy, mercy, I'm done, Mercy. And this song came out of me. This song mercy came out of me at 2 in the morning, like all at once. This rush, this answer of music. I felt a presence that I had never felt in my life. And I've always written with Something, but I didn't know what it was that was flowing through me. And that night, I knew without a doubt that that beautiful piece of art came through that pain. There had to be something bigger than me in this world that was listening. And from then, I just was so hungry for it, and I sought it out and I asked and I searched and I implored, God, keep showing yourself to me, please. Keep delighting me, keep helping me, keep healing me. And he did, over and over. And music came, music came, music came, like, so much music.

Did you have a relationship to God before then?

I think I did, but I didn't know him and I didn't know. I didn't understand that he was actually, like, listening to me and right there and right here in my heart, and that it was someone that I didn't have to go through someone else to get to. That was the other thing about LA and this world that we're kind of entrenched in that I think messed me up. I kept thinking there needed to be this intermediary to get me to God. Like, okay, I'd go to, like, a medical intuitive or an intuitive or a psychic, a Reiki person. They connect me. And I was so desperate for it that I'd go all the time. Like, I want that. I want to understand how to reach, you know, my creator and, you know, how to do it for me. So you do it. And I'd ask people to pray for me for things. And, like, because I had so much fear. And that's where the aloneness felt. Like, what were you afraid of?

Connecting with you, Being alone.

Like, being that no one would be there when I went to ask, that no one would hear me. Like, do you feel loved by God? Do you feel a connection?

Yeah, I do. I didn't always, though. I mean, growing up, I felt very insecure, very, very alone.

Yeah, me too.

I used to go to the principal's office all the time in elementary school and just say, I wish I were dead. I wish I were dead over and over again, because I felt like no one cared. Obviously, my parents were there for me, you know, obviously, like, you know, my siblings. But it's just, you know, I just felt alone. And it didn't probably matter how much someone loved me. I didn't know how to receive the love probably also. And so for years, it wasn't until maybe 10, 11 years ago, when I started my healing journey, where I felt a deeper sense of love for self and love for God.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you for sharing that.

Of Course, Yeah. But it's. I know the feeling is challenging.

I know the feeling.

And so everything for me was driving. You know, I can relate to you because I was driven for so long to succeed, to feel loved and accepted.

Exactly.

But then it never felt like enough. It never felt like, oh, I'm not getting what I truly want, so let me go get more.

Right.

And keep accomplishing.

Exactly.

And things started to shift for me 10 years ago where I said, I want to create my life based on a vision that I have to serve people.

Yes.

And if I have a dream to write a book or something else, and I can still go for goals, but it needs to be in the service of others.

It needs to be in service. Service is fundamental now in anything I do, I am exactly the same, Louis. Same. We are so similar in our journeys. I needed to achieve more and more and more. And we are both very driven people, and we have achieved a lot, and we have both been through the school of greatness, and we have achieved great things. And all of your guests have, and probably most of your listeners do. Like, but what we found is that there is an emptiness in it.

It.

Right. Unless it is of service. Unless you are being asked to be used. Unless, like, you are striving is for a bigger purpose.

So when you're on your knees screaming Mercy at 2am in the back of.

Your house, you're like, did neighbors call?

I'm curious. Like, did you feel a connection to God then?

I did.

Was it, like, the first time you really felt a connection? And if so, what did you hear or experience or notice?

Yeah. Crying, thinking about it. Because it was so. I mean, it was so powerful, and it shifted me so much. And just. I mean, for me, God talks me through songs and songwriting. So this song that came out of me, it's one of my favorite songs I've ever written. And the fact that I wrote it in 20 minutes was very obvious that it wasn't me writing it.

Wow.

So it was.

It just came through you quickly?

It came through me very quickly. It was almost like I was chasing it. And I was like, slow down, slow down, slow down. I'm trying. I'm. Slow down. I kept saying, slow down.

Like, the words are coming.

Like the words were coming. Like, I was like, stop, stop, stop. And my hands couldn't write fast enough. And I was like, please, please, slow down. I kept saying out loud to anyone, slow down. And it just was coming and coming, and I was like, oh, my God. Here's the first. Okay, get back to the piano. Oh, my God. And it felt like an orgasm or something.

A musical orgasm.

It was just wild. And I had been in so much pain and so much suffering.

That created peace. It created freedom.

It felt like a taste of freedom now. It was. It did not last.

Right, Right.

Like, it's too am. You're exhausting happened. It was incredible. I woke my husband up. I shook him. I was like, come downstairs. I think he had just got back from the hospital. He was exhausted. He was like, oh, no, we're both exhausted. Like, please don't make me wake up to hear a song of yours, because if I don't like this song right.

Now, I am like, why'd you wake me up?

So screwed. Like, he's like, I. I better like this song because. Because you are so not okay right now. And I was like, no, no, Kevin, it's. It's good. And I. I played it for him with tears in my eyes.

Like, you were. Played it live or you recorded it?

No, no, no. I. I just. I. Come on. I did not.

I don't know if you, like, recorded on your iPhone real quick.

No, I did, but, like, I. I had. I did. I captured it. I actually have the recording of me.

The original.

Yeah. Me crying through it. And I'm like. I go. In one part, I go, oh, that's good. And I'm like, no way. And then I go, that's good. Yeah. You hear me? And then I throw the pen down. You can hear it all. But I wake him up, and I bring him down and I sing it for him. And his jaw is on the floor, and he's like, what? Did.

How?

What? And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think. I think God's using me. I think that there's a reason that I'm. I think there's a reason I'm suffering so much right now.

Wow.

But I still had to suffer for two more years, so, like, it wasn't all great.

Do you think we have to suffer to create something great?

Oh, my God, this sucks. Because I used to, like, vehemently argue that. No, I was so.

But Fight Song, you weren't suffering. Creating that way.

Yes, I was.

Really?

Yes. You think Fight Song was born from, like, a chill experience, but sometimes you.

Hear people saying they created, like, a love song out of just like, yeah, I love peace and beauty and.

Who are they? I'm so annoyed with them.

Like, the Beatles seem to create stuff all the time.

They sure did, didn't they? They seem to be having A great time.

Yeah, Right.

I know no other people do. I don't know what it is with me and God and the muse and, like, what happens, but apparently for me to really reach the depths of things that reach other people, I have to, for some reason. I mean, it's a transmutation. It's alchemy for me. It isn't for everybody, but it is for me. I alchemize my deep pain and I turn it into art. And that's what my vibe is. And now I've just come to accept it, like, cool, cool, cool. We're gonna work again and we're gonna create again. That means I'm probably gonna be crying and. But, I mean, it's not all that. I have songs on the record that are also joyful and silly and fun. Like, I'm exaggerating. Better Place was written with me delicately looking out at, like, a beautiful ray of sun on the trees. So, like, they're not all like that.

It's just that moment created a song, though.

Yeah. Usually the ones that move people the most, for some reason, for me, are those. I'm not the artist that people turn to, I don't think, for, like, the party song. I think they come to me to feel interesting.

Wow. Okay. So since that happened, you feel like you've had a different relationship to God?

Yeah. Yeah.

And what is that relationship now, two years later?

It's really intimate and great.

Really?

I love him.

So you feel like you have a direct channel to God? You don't have to go to someone else?

No, I would never think to go to someone else. How creepy. That idea seems so wild to me now. Why would anyone else have my answers? That doesn't make any sense to me now. I write every day these dear love letters that Elizabeth Gilbert is doing.

Have you seen it? Well, she's asked me to do. Right. Lewis, I've been.

Why are you doing it? I'm so annoyed with you for turning it down.

I had to turn it down. I said, yes, I'll do it immediately.

You have to do it.

I saw yours. I saw the newsletter that she sent out with yours. Really powerful.

I didn't write it.

Right, exactly. You shared it. You put it out there.

So she writes these letters.

I have it in my inbox for me to do. I've just been traveling.

I was so annoyed to you, Zone. Please do it. I want to hear what love says to you. And she calls it love. Maybe that's a more pal. Palatable word for everyone listening. Inter. Exchangeable. For me, she calls it universal love God, it triggers people that word. But I. What I'm saying when I say that is the one, the creator, the divine, that force of love in the world. And so we write every week. Dear Love, what would you have me know today?

Wow.

And when you think that you're going to be like, you think it's not going to be answered right? You think you're not going to hear anything. Oh, my God. Literally, oh, my God, answers pour out of you. And these are just women, men, normal women and men living their life. These aren't spiritual necessarily, like holy people. These are just people, just like us who are hungry for answers, who put the request out there and they get met with a flood of love and answers and support. And now there's a community on her substack of over a hundred thousand people that are sharing these letters every day with each other. And it is unbelievably beautiful. I think it's the most beautiful place on the Internet. So all I'm saying is, like, it would be wild to me to go to anyone else for answers. When I have a direct line, I can literally write. And now I can just hear. I'll just ask and, like, I can hear.

So for 40 years you didn't have that.

No, no.

It's almost like saying, I need to go to my sibling to ask what my father thinks about me.

Right.

Or give me advice. But I can't go directly to my dad. I'm going to task my siblings to ask them, you go, and they bring it back to me.

And that's going to be filtered through their own human experience. So, like, that's the problem. I think with intuitives and psychics, they're still human. It might be something true, but that it's going to be filtered through their own human body and feelings and thoughts.

What did you need to be able to unlock that within yourself, to be able to connect God directly?

I mean, I think like all heroes journeys, I needed to be on my knees, suffering at my limit, crying, mercy, I surrender anything, come and help me. Like, that was what I needed. I'm stubborn, though. Someone else might have an easier time getting there.

But what was the unlock like? Was it finally, like, I'm going to be. I'm going to. I'm going to trust and listen directly. I'm going to let go of something. I'm going to stop living in fear. Like, what unlocked it so you could have a direct channel to practice.

Practice. You know, it wasn't all at once.

But were you afraid of it for a while?

Of what?

Connecting directly.

I just was afraid that no one would be answering me. I was afraid no one would be there, that it would be true, that I would be alone, but it's not true.

So in that moment, you felt like, I don't care if I'm alone. I'm just gonna listen anyways.

Like when it was crying mercy, you mean? I wasn't thinking at all. I was in so much pain.

You just said, I'll do whatever.

I didn't have any plan. My plan was just to throw my forehead against the floor.

You weren't in your head anym.

No, I couldn't be. I was in too much pain. You're in your heart. Yes, I was. I was broken. My heart was broken. I was shattered. I was obliterated. Rachel was gone. I was. It was just all pain that was there. It was all fear and it was all grief and it was all pain and I couldn't think anything. I just was in so much pain. I was in so much pain.

Wow. Was it physical pain? Was it spiritual pain? Was it. It emotional pain? What was the main pain you were feeling?

It was like terror, Just terror.

Was it in your head, was in your body, was in your heart? Was it.

I don't know. It was everywhere.

It was everywhere.

It was everywhere. And I. And I now can, like, go through in a meditation and kind of ask and check in with my body and where are you? But I mean, in the moment, I didn't have those tools. I just, you know, I think that I felt so scared and so alone and so broken and like. Yeah, it was just a full body feeling. Have you ever been there? That low?

I've been in more, like full rage and anger.

Yeah.

Probably because the emotion that I knew how to express the best, you know?

Yeah, they're all the same.

Yeah, exactly. Afraid.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm curious if you could, with the wisdom you have now and the experience you have now, if you were able to go back five years ago and yourself five years ago, asked you now, Rachel from the future, how do I heal myself? What advice or what would you say to your younger self on how to heal with the wisdom you have now, knowing all the pain you experience, all the fear, anxiety, stress, you know, tightness in your body, worry, like, what would you be able to say to her? To her, to actually listen to you and actually take the actions to heal?

I just wrote myself a letter that's going to be on the copy of my vinyl. This is the first time I'm going to have actual records, physical LPs.

That's cool.

And I just wrote myself a letter that's going to be on the inside and it's not going to be anywhere else. And it was dear me five years ago. And so I know exactly what I would say. And it was, this pain is going to be worse than anything you've ever experienced. And it goes on. But I will not wish you out of it, because it is the way. It is the path to get where you want. And so I will be brave and I will love you, and I will tell you you're going to be okay. You're going to end up in a beautiful place, but I will not wish it away. I know that you're strong enough to handle this, and all of it is going to lead you exactly where you want. So I would not give myself tools to escape it or get out of it faster. Everything had to be exactly as it was for me to feel how I feel today.

Do we all have to go through pain and suffering in order to feel peace? Or is there a way we can premeditatively not hack it, but say. Say my life's not great. I'm at a 7 out of 10.

Yeah.

But every year I keep going at this rate, it kind of goes down a little bit. I lose a little bit of my soul, my heart. I just like, I'm just surviving. And when you can catch it and say, I know some things are off and I'm just not really connected to my body or my emotions, like, my relationship's a little bit off, is there a way you can not hack it, but you can say, I'm gonna do the work.

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Okay, I do have an answer to.

Get to where I want to be as opposed to, well, let me just wait five years until I go into a crash and have pain and suffer. Then I wake up.

That's not what I meant, Louis.

It's not about hacking. Like, can't We. Is there a way we can pre. Support ourselves to improve as opposed to. Well, I'll just wait till it gets the whole. No, no, no.

Okay, so I don't mean that. I don't mean, like, I want to leave you there, young Rachel, to just go through this alone. Like, I said a lot other things to her of, like, I'm going to love you, and I'm going to be there loving you. And the sooner that you can learn to love yourself and accept what is, the sooner things are going to start to change. So my answer is acceptance. What I would say to anyone is because the sooner that you can be with what is. Accept what is, the sooner that you are about to start to actually change something. You need to radically accept what is before you can change anything.

And you hadn't accepted what was.

No, I was fighting and mad and angry at God and scared and raging against it. So my work over and over and over was to say, yes, yes, I don't like this, but, yes, I'm here. Yes, I don't want to be depressed. Yes, I am depressed. You know, like, so if you would.

Have done that five years ago, you maybe wouldn't have hit rock bottom with all this pain.

Yeah, but, like, the pain brought my art. The pain brought these.

You could have brought it the other ways, too. You could have brought the.

You know, I don't know. I kind of love the journey. I don't know. I kind of love it.

I get it. But that's a high, high, low, low.

But that's my vibe. That's who I am. I'm a high, high, low, low kind of girl. I've always been. It's kind of another thing I have to accept about myself. I. I'm not like everyone. Some people are like me. Some people aren't. My husband's way more in the middle and even. And like, this is. No, he's nowhere like this. And one of my. Yeah, but, like, this is how I am. I'm a songwriter. This is me.

You're an artist?

Yeah, I'm an artist. I go wildly high and wildly low. I'm not gonna change. The sooner that I learn to stop being so frustrated. Sometimes I'll look at God and be like, are you joking? Why did you make me like this? Were you drunk? Like, I'm so sensitive. How did you think I'd be okay? But I'm also so, so strong. I'm such a warrior, and I'm so fierce. And so now I'm like, yeah, you did a Good job. But, like, I used to be so just like, what were you thinking? This is a dumb way to make a human being. This is, like, absurd. But now I'm like, this is Rachel. Rachel goes high and Rachel goes low. And, like, so that's all that I know. That's the only advice I can give, is like, I need to experience them for my art. Not every artist does. It's what I do. But I don't suffer like I used to. Now that I have this connection with God, that is my answer. I don't suffer. I will go low and I will go high, but I don't suffer anything.

You don't stay low for a long time.

I don't stay low. I don't suffer. You know what I'm saying? Like, I feel the pain. But I heard Tony Robbins say this one time, he never. He's not. He's said, like, I had this moment where I realized I would never suffer again. And I feel the same way. I'm never going to suffer again.

Gives himself like 20 minutes or whatever and feels it. And he's more, like, driven. Yeah.

Yeah. I feel it. Like, I am a now a ninja about feeling my feelings. Feelings because I know I can't trap them. So I will go upstairs, I'll punch pillows, I'll write out in my journal. 20 minutes non stop. Like, everything that I need to say. The worst thing I could say. The worst thing I could feel. The thing I would always suppress. Like, I hate my kids. The things that you would never say out loud.

Yeah, you let it.

I get them out. I cry. I hold myself in a healthy container. In a healthy container. Yeah. Yeah. Good way to say it. I forgot to think.

Don't do it in front of the people.

No, you gotta be responsible. Like, I'll go like. Like, scream, I hate you. I want to shoot a bazooka into the world. And whatever you want to say is true. It's just true for that moment, but it doesn't stay true. And Nicole Sacks's work taught me that. My therapist taught me that. Like, you know, I learned it from my own experience. And it has been the most unbelievable thing to learn. That's cool that it doesn't stay true. It just needs to get out.

You can let it out.

Let it out.

Letting out your emotions with a boundaries, accepting yourself.

Yeah, Accept yourself and then investigate. I mean, it's Tara Brock's reign practice. You're familiar with her work?

I think so, yeah. I've seen her stuff online.

The R is recognize the A is allow, the I is investigate, and the N is nurture. And I think it is the most brilliant acronym I've ever. That is like, acronym again. Rain, R, A, I, N. And so you recognize. Okay, I'm angry right now because how often do we walk around all day being like, not really actually knowing how we feel about a thing or just some dull level of not okayness Once that dull feeling of, like, disease is there, that's not actually me. And I'm like. I mean, like, that's not actually capital S self. That isn't actually God in me.

So something you're experiencing.

That's something I'm experiencing. It's a wave. And so now I'm like, okay, so let's see what's here. Rachi, you're not feeling like yourself. And I recognize it. What are you feeling? I put a hand on my heart. I ask myself, I go to the bathroom if I only have two minutes and like, you know, quietly ask, what's here? Okay, Fear is here. Why are you afraid? And I feel it. And then the A is allow. And I allow it to move through me. And it moves through me like a wave. I cry a lot. I'm a crier. But some people like to rage. Sometimes I scream. I do what I need to do to get it out of my body. And then investigate. I get quiet. I listen within and I say, where are you? You know, like. Like you asked in the beginning. Where was it? It's often in my stomach or my back or in my head. And then I ask that part of me, what do you need? What do you need to hear what's going on? And it'll often just tell me, just love me, Just be with me. Yeah, just let me be here.

That's cool.

And then N is nurture. And then you give yourself the love and that message of support that you're looking for from a place of support and resource. So, like, maybe in the past there was someone that just loved you so truly, like a grandmother or a spiritual teacher or Jesus or Buddha, whoever you think of. And you embody that and you give yourself the message that you need. And honestly, if you talk about a hack, like I. 20 minutes of that and I am. I'm clear. I've moved through it.

It.

And I didn't push anything down.

Wow.

Yeah.

Sounds like internal family systems a lot in there too, right?

Yeah, I like, I have it all mixed up.

Yeah, it's good.

There's so many brilliant people doing such amazing work right now, including you.

Oh, thank you.

Yeah.

Appreciate it. So that's the advice you'd give yourself five years ago.

Yeah. The sooner you can be with what is Rachi, and love yourself just as you are in this moment, the sooner things will start to change.

What is the advice?

And I would say, turn on your tape recorder when you're recording. Start recording. Like, don't think that those things that you're singing aren't worth anything just because you're depressed.

That's good.

Yeah.

What is the advice your future self would give you now, five years in the future, with all the wisdom experience that you think you're going to have?

She would love me. She would be so proud of me. She's going to say to me, rachi, you're doing it.

This is it.

I ask because I ask her, I talk to her, and she always says, this is it. Doing it. So I asked, how do I get there? How do I get? And she says, this is do. You're doing it. This is it. This is it. And every time something comes up that's hard, that makes me want to break or stop or give up, she tells me, this is not an obstacle in the way. This is the way. This is the way. And I love you, and you're doing such a good job. And keep going.

That's cool.

Just keep going.

It's amazing. Amazing. I'm excited for you. I'm really excited for where you're at because, I mean, a year ago, you were not a good place. I remember again, walking and just the pain you were having in your body and just awful.

I was having spasms. Right hip. Yep. I have no more pain. I can do whatever. Oh, my God.

That's incredible.

I dance every week.

That's good.

I do whatever I want.

That's good.

I do somersaults with my girls and cartwheels and I play soccer and tennis and ski.

You're in a lot of pain. Before you were like. Like, do you know masseuse? Do you know anywhere else?

I couldn't move. I couldn't get up off my floor for a couple weeks.

That's crazy.

Yeah. I was in a lot of pain.

I'm glad you're not in pain anymore.

Me too.

Glad you're feeling peace.

Me too.

And the album is out. Once we launch this, the album will be out.

Yeah.

What is your. Your wish for it?

Well, my wish for it is that it may be used by God to move into all the corners of the world, wherever people need it, that it may reach whoever needs it. That it may bring healing and love and peace and just be another vehicle out of the dark, you know, it was my way out, so it's now my offering to the world. Like, may it be a vehicle for other people who are suffering and, you know, want to feel their feelings. May it reach people who feel unseen.

Yeah.

May it let people know they're not alone. May it be a comfort. Maybe the thing that you listen to over and over to, like, feel God. Yeah. And may it just find its home wherever it's supposed to go.

That's beautiful. Yeah. I mean, the song Girls, if you're a mom, go listen to that right now. I think it's going to bring you a lot of joy. Or if you have a sister, but.

Get tissues because you're gonna.

Yeah, it's beautiful. Go listen to that again. If you're feeling any type of pain or uncertainty in your life, go listen to Mercy right away. Yeah. And if you have bad thoughts, go.

Anxiety, panic attacks. Panic attacks.

Yeah, go listen to bad thoughts. But listen to the whole thing. It's a beautiful piece of art. So I'm really excited for you. I'm really happy that you were able to create something magical and beautiful from a place of extreme pain and suffering.

Thank you.

And I hope, even though this is your life, I hope you don't have to suffer that much.

No, no, no, I won't. Ever again. Not like that.

You might have pain. I will, but hopefully you don't have to hold on to it.

It's life. I'm going to have pain, of course, but I'm never going to feel like I felt.

Exactly. That's good. Where should we go to listen or the best place.

Please stream it on your preferred platform. I'm sorry. Spotify, Amazon, Apple Music?

It's called I am Rachel Platten.

And go to my website, rachelplatten.com. you can order a vinyl there. A signed copy, really. And see that letter I wrote myself and to all of us. And you can join my fan community there. There's a lot of us who are out there seeking comfort and not like feeling like we're not alone and wanting to know that there's others like us who are just seeking right and searching for love and. And I've built this community of incredible, incredible people who are loving on each other and supporting each other. So, yeah, come find us.

That's great. Are you doing a tour at some point or.

I am. I'll be touring in 2025 so they.

Can sign up your newsletter and get.

That information on rachelplatten.com you can sign up for my newsletter and you will be the first to know and get VIP sales. First. First access to tickets.

That's pretty cool.

Yeah.

When's the last time you went on tour?

2019.

Really?

Violet was three months old. Yeah.

So it'll be six years since you've been on tour.

You know what? Jewel told me to say one thing. I don't mean to be so name droppy, but I want to say something about my tour because she said, rachel, you have to share this.

Say it.

Okay. Because I was talking to my lean in circle, which is Cheryl and Arianna and Jewel and like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're really. It's really cool. And I told them, you know, I'm going back on tour. I might not be on a bus this time because I'm not playing those humongous places that I was playing, but I'm proud and I'm excited. And Jewel said, please talk about that as you do press for the album so that other women and moms know that it is okay to make a choice for your family. It is okay. It is a choice that I made to take time off, to heal, to make my family, to be with my babies. And there is a sacrifice that came with it. I'm best friends with Andy Grammer and he and I were touring to the same audience. Right. But he's a dad. He toured the entire last six years.

Yeah. And he kept building his audience.

And it can be. It's something that sometimes we joke about. And, like, I look at it and I'm like, what's wrong with me? Why aren't I there? I am not there because I made a choice. And that choice was beautiful for me at the time. But there was a sacrifice and I can get back there. It's just going to take work. So I just want other moms to do it.

And you don't have to get back there.

I probably will.

Right. But I mean, you don't have to tour every year to be successful.

No, but I probably will. Knowing me, because I'm a hard worker and I feel energy again and I feel ready again.

When your kids are older and they're.

Going to take time and, like, and that's okay. It's okay to have made a choice. And our community, our world right now tells us that it is not okay to make those choices and to not be at the top, you know, but they are essential choices that we have to make. And I accept it and I'M proud of it. And here I am back out there again. Maybe not on a tour bus this time, Maybe playing to a little bit smaller rooms, but hey, like, you're doing it, I'm doing it. And I made my babies and I'm ready again.

Let's go, bro.

Come on. Woo.

How else can we be of service and support you right now, Rachel?

Thank you for asking. Please share the music with everyone you know. Anyone that you think might need some love right now to know that they're not alone, anyone that you feel like might be suffering, please share them with it. Please share the music with them and just come find me online. Come join my community. I am so happy to get to know my fans. We have special gatherings every month and. Yeah, but, yeah, share it with everyone. It comes from word of mouth, you know, it's like, I'm an indie artist right now. So, like, every stream and every recommendation and every TikTok and street reel you make, it all helps. Yeah, it all matters.

Here's what I'm gonna do for anyone watching or listening right now. I'm gonna buy 10 signed vinyls and send them out to people.

Louis.

So what you have to do is leave a comment on the YouTube below of your biggest takeaway from this and share that. And then also share, tag, tag a story of you watching this on Instagram. Tag me and tag Rachel. And I'll select 10 people who share this out in the first week. We'll send it out to 10 people. So, and if you don't get one, then just go to rachelpladden.com and buy yourself.

No, but I'll sign them special for them. I'll individualize it.

Special one.

I'll individualize it.

Yeah. Well, I'll go over to the studio across the street. We'll sign it. I'll sign it too, if you want me to. Yeah. Yep.

Rachel.

And go sign special ones. So we'll make that happen. Rachel, I acknowledge you for the journey you've been on. Again, I've seen behind the scenes of stuff. A lot of people don't get to see that. That I acknowledge you for opening up here and sharing more of what you've been going through the last five years. I'll never know what it's like to be a mother of two and experience the. The joy and the pain and the suffering and the sadness and the. No, no. Sleepless nights and. And try to be relevant and try to make music like. I'll never know what that feels like. And I acknowledge you for Feeling it all and experiencing it all. For making the sacrifices to live your dream to be a mother and to also come back and create the art and the music that can help you and others as well. So I acknowledge you for all of it, my friend. I love you. I'm grateful for you. And I can't wait to do our our walks soon. When you get back from all this three months of madness, we'll do more walks together.

Thank you so much.

One final question I've asked you before, but I'm curious what your definition is. Now with some perspective, what's your definition of greatness? This.

It's kind of beautiful to answer this almost 10 years later. First of all, that made me cry. Thank you so much.

You're welcome.

I think just being able to love yourself right now is my answer. I think being able to truly and deeply and radically love yourself and accept yourself for all of you is greatness. Because we've both seen the achievement. It's not it. It's not it. It's like being of service and loving yourself.

There you go.

Yeah.

Appreciate you, Rachel.

I appreciate you so much. I love you. Amazing.

Love you too.

Thank you.

Amazing. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening. Then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you of New one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. Hey everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe's and basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe please and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

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