Signs You’re Dating a Narcissist & How to Know If You Are One w/Dr. Ramani Durvasula (PART 1) EP 1195

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This is episode number 1195 with Dr. Ramany Durvasula.

The bigger question I often get is can a narcissist love?

Is that possible?

Besides loving themselves, we love what we believe they are.

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro.

Athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur and each week.

We bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

Welcome my friend to this special episode. I was kind of in shock and fascinated this entire episode with Dr. Ramany and you're about to hear why. She is a licensed clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at Cal State University in Los Angeles and The focus of Dr. Romany's clinical, academic and consultative work is the Cause and Impact of Narcissism and High Conflict entitled Antagonistic Personality Styles on human relationships, Mental health and societal expectations. She's also the best selling author of don't you know Who I am, how to stay sane in the era of narcissism, entitlement and insanity, civility. And this topic truly fascinated me so much. I kind of had to pause and was in shock many times throughout this interview. And I wanted to split this into two parts because it just kind of blew me away and was fascinating how I was kind of reliving my past in so many different scenarios in my life. So I want you to dive in, buckle up, get ready, because this is going to be a powerful two part episode. And part two will come out later this week. In this first episode we discuss the main traits of a narcissist and how people become one, what to do if you find yourself in a relationship with a narcissist. And this was interesting, what she shared here, the difference between narcissists and psychopaths, the deep technique and why radical acceptance is so important, whether or not a narcissist is capable of feeling love and so much more. And I'm telling you, this has kind of been a fascinating topic for me and I wanted to dive in on this and so many of you were asking me about doing a subject on this because we live in an era of narcissism really where social media has amplified a lot of these things and showcase people this so much more. I really think this is going to help a lot of people who are struggling in relationships, maybe controlling or manipulative relationships, where they feel like the life is sucked out of them, where they feel like there's no hope, like it's never enough, what they do is never good enough, all these different things. So if you are feeling inspired by this at any moment, make sure to share this with a friend, a family member or post it over on social media. Let's get the word out because this information is so, so powerful and it helped me realize so many things. And if you think of someone who might be in a specific relationship that is struggling with a narcissist, send them this episode and see if there are any common themes that come up for them from this interview. Again, big reminder, if this is your first time here, big thank you for being here, thank the person that sent you here and please subscribe to the School of Greatness over on Apple Podcast or on Spotify or wherever you're listening to this episode and connect with us over on YouTube as well for some incredible long form videos over there. And I want to give a thank you and a shout out to the fan of the week from Byron who said I thoroughly enjoyed listening to your podcast. Because of your focus on helping us all improve our lives and break through to living our best life. I am thankful to have found your podcast and each episode is a treat. So, Byron, thank you so much for being here and leaving a review over on Apple Podcast and being the fan of the week. Okay, in just a moment, the one and only Dr. Ramani Durvassarla.

Why is narcissism such a. A big topic, especially right now in our society?

It's interesting. It wasn't for a very long time. I mean, this is. It's fascinating to have been studying something when nobody cared about it. Like, I was like, you were like.

A nerd when you.

I was that nerd in the lab with the butterfly that nobody cared about. Everyone drive us literally back room of a lab and everyone forgot about me. I was content because I'm a nerd. That's. I've geeked out. I was like, this is fascinating. And then a lot of things happened. You know, if anyone ever asked me, this is my theory on it is. I think it's interesting. There's a book from the 1970s by a guy named Christopher Lasch called the Culture of Narcissism. And in that book he really gets. And this is the 70s, okay. And he really gets into issues like materialism and also the falling apart of American community structures and family structures. And so he pins this sort of pathological narcissism and selfishness to the sort of the erosion of those structures. But I think that misses something. Then it was kind of quiet. Like, this has always been a quiet area, interestingly, in mental health. And then reality TV happened. Social media happened.

You had to witness it all.

Yeah, and we had to witness it all. Kids are growing up with it now.

Political dramas and fights and lots of.

And materialism was on the rise. So when we look at materialism, social media and reality tv, that kind of triple threat where everything was about shameless self promotion, everything was about validation seeking. Look at me. No, look at me. No, look at me. My life's better than yours. And it was that. It was. I will never forget the day, actually, I was. When I. Someone told me about social media, it was in that space between MySpace and Facebook.

Yeah.

And I had small, small children at the time. And I think I was up late. And somebody said, you got to look at this thing called Facebook. Right? And I'm like, I don't know what this is. And so I. At the time, I was even married. So I really. No social life. And I look at it. And it's that moment, penny drop moment, where I could feel that dread in my stomach as though like a ghost appeared in the door. And I thought to myself, oh, my God, this narcissism thing is about to blow up. Because before that, think about it, if you were a narcissist and you needed to get validation, you actually had to get up and get out of the house, right? Like no one was going to. You had to get up, kind of get ready, go to work. A lot of narcissists got their validation at work, especially men in that era. And then other people, like, would get it by, like going to social events, going to parties, maybe succeeding at something, but it was a different game.

Going to the gym, maybe, maybe going to the gym.

But now all of it could be excelling at something visible like sports or performing or like singing or something like that. But then I was like, oh, hell no. You're telling me that people are going to be able to get validation just sitting at home. And I thought, this narcissism thing's going to blow up. That was 2008. When I had that revelation, I started telling people, you know, people said like, oh, honey, you're just, you're running off in your head. Get some sleep, like you're acting crazy. And I said, no, no, no, this is gonna blow up. And then it blew up. And at around that time, we're starting to see the beginnings of reality TV shows, like, you know, Survivor and things like that. I'm like, this is interesting. And then we'd start seeing more and more, more of the attention seeking, reality TV housewife type shows.

The Bachelor.

The Bachelor. And I thought, oh, no, no, no, no. And then the political winds changed and the word came into the, into popular use. So imagine going from something that you studied, only you studied, no one cared about it, Nobody cared about it.

And then all of a sudden, it's mainstream change.

And it became mainstream. Exactly. But another thing that was happening too is this. I was studying it in my research. I had been funded by the National Institutes of Health to look at personality issues because I was working with folks who were working in community clinics, and they would come back from the community clinics back to the main lab at the university and say, they would look frazzled. And I'll say, hey, what's up? And they'll say, some of these patients, they're so terrible and they're ruining everyone's lives. And what we came to find out was that there were some patients who come in entitled and Grumpy and take it out on the staff. And I thought, that's interesting. These people are not only burning out the staff so they can't give good health care to other people. They themselves, everyone's dreading seeing them, so they're not getting good health care. And then a few years later, I was noticing a pattern in my patients over and over again. It's like they were all talking about the same relationship. I thought, this is interesting. Nobody ever taught these people about narcissism because this is clearly what was happening in their relationships. And I'm not kidding you, once they got educated on these patterns, they were making changes like this. Some were getting divorced, some were splitting up, some were saying, I'm going to set boundaries. I mean, it was insta change. And they said, we were in couples therapy for five years. And always about marriage is hard. You gotta communicate. Like communicating with the narcissist is. I don't know, it's like screaming into an abyss, like there's no point.

Is there hope for people in marriages if you're in a relationship with a narcissist to actually heal the relationship and improve it, or is it just gonna be hard the rest of your life.

Going on a probability basis? The answer is no. I think it's gonna be hard always. Are there unicorns out there? Sure. But the amount of commitment you'd need on the part of the person who's narcissistic. I mean, we're talking about daily commitment.

On the person who is a narciss.

A person who's narcissistic has to get into therapy multiple times a week. They have to be willing to have humility. They have to be willing to be mindful. They have to be willing to regulate themselves. That's a long list of things they need to be willing to do. They can't be impulsive. They can't say whatever's on their mind. It's fascinating because I have worked with, I'd say 25% of the clients I've worked with in my clinical practice for a long time now, you know, have been narcissistic.

Why would they even come to work with you if they're narcissistic?

Because something's going wrong in their lives, their marriage is blowing up, they're having some sort of public shaming, their career isn't going well.

They have to.

Essentially, they feel the world is against them. And in this victimized stance, they roll up to therapy in some ways wanting to complain. Right. Every so often, they're Given an ultimatum, maybe by a workplace or by a spouse or someone. Maybe they get caught in an affair, and then they're told that wife or husband or partner or spouse will say, we're not staying together unless you get therapy, which is a fool's errand. Because if they're. If someone else is telling them to do it, even if someone. Even if they do it on their own, there usually isn't much personality. Personality doesn't really change.

Personality doesn't change. Unless you're, like, doing therapy every week and holding yourself accountable.

Listen, I'm. Listen, I have a certain personality. I got it tested when I was in my 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. It hasn't changed. I'm a little bit more. I'm a little bit more confident now. That's not my personality. That's just time served.

Right.

You know, it's like, I put in more reps.

Yes. Yeah, I put in more reps. So I'm like, now I know I can do this thing right? But it's not that I'm. I was born agreeable. I grew up agreeable. I was an agreeable adult. I'm an agreeable person. That's just who I am.

When is our personality shaped?

Well, there's two pieces of personality. We're born. The sort of. The genetic part of personality, if you will, is called our temperament.

Our temperament.

Our temperament. Our temperament.

You're born and you're either a crier or not a crier, or you're.

I can make it ultra simple. Like, you know, there's some kids out there who have really, really difficult temperaments. They're born into the world difficult. Talk to a parent. They're kids who are difficult to soothe, to make them stop crying, to help them sleep as time goes on. They're just difficult kids. They don't play as nice. They have low frustration tolerance. They're difficult with their siblings. They're punchy fighty. They get to school, they can't sit still. They're always getting into trouble, and none of the adults like them. So these kids with these difficult temperaments actually have this relationship with the world that's pretty unpleasant. Everyone's like, sit down. Stop that. Don't do that. And there's even this vibe these kids get, like, nobody really wants to spend time with them.

Right.

Because they're a real handful.

Is it their fault? I mean, they can't really change that when you're five.

No, you can't. But the difficult temperament's a risk factor for the adult narcissistic. Personality. Now, not everybody with a difficult temperament goes on to become narcissistic. So it's not a slam dunk. But it's definitely. When we tell that story backwards. Every narcissistic client I've ever worked with, without exception, had a difficult temperament as a child. So that either they. Every so often, I'd get lucky. They. We'd phone the parent during therapy and say, can we talk about this? Sometimes they ask the parent, and the parent would come clean on that and say, yeah, you were a real. Because you had siblings, Right. So they compare them to siblings. Some siblings have this great easy temperament. It's not quite so. Temperament is that biological part of our personality. It's how you might see your personality in either one of your parents or in a grandparent or an aunt or an uncle. You'll say, wow, I have such a similar personality to them. That's the genetic.

Okay. And the other.

All the rest of it is shaped.

By the world, environment, parents, society, how you were treated and what you're exposed to.

Exactly.

So if you had a. Let's say a challenging temperament growing up, is there hope for you to, you know, I guess, shift your personality into a different style with environment?

I think so. I think so. I think a couple of things have to happen. That kid needs to be met. Where they're at. So let's say you have a boy with a difficult temperament who's just energy, and you get them into athletics, or you get them into something where they're using their hands, whatever that might be, building things or something like that, and you really are with them. Instead of saying, you're being so bad, you're so difficult, like, whoa, look at that rocket you built. Or like, oh, my Gosh, you ran 10 miles today, or you threw the ball. Or like, this is great, let's do it together. And they have a parent who wants to maybe do those things with them. I've heard of some. This is where it's interesting. I hear a lot of these stories, if not in athletics, but people who do things like climb mountains, that kind of thing. And sometimes the parents got them into these things because the kid was just a bolus of energy. And then they would. And then the parents would really encourage them, might even go with them, might go hunting with them or whatever. So I do think if that child feels loved, safe, protected, attached, they feel like they have a safe base to return to, which is usually their primary caregiver, they can relax and they have success again. Experiences. Right. So maybe they're not the best kid in school, but they're really, like, they feel loved no matter what. Whether they can read or not, whether they can do math or not, they're loved. And that they have these other outlets and that the school is supporting them and meeting them. How many kids do you know who have that things line up like that? I can count on one hand the number of kids I know who got that lineup right.

I mean, who had, like, all the support and love. We love you no matter what. Yeah. It's very challenging. It's interesting because I interviewed Kobe Bryant before he passed, obviously, and he said his father, one summer when he was playing basketball, I think he was 13, he said he didn't score one point the whole summer in this summer competition league. He said, my father told me, no matter what, I'm going to love you. Whether you score zero points or you're the highest scorer, I'm going to love you no matter what you do, no matter how good or how bad you are, I love you no matter what. And he said that conversation with his dad gave him the confidence to say, I'm gonna go out and go for it no matter what happens. I'm loved is the way he explained it. And I thought that was interesting. But not a lot of people have had, like, the school support and parent support and sleeping support and, like, the encouragement. But it sounds like you can't change a personality, but you can channel a personality into other activities to support their growth.

Is that right?

So every human being has the same sort of essential ingredients that they need in terms of wanting, you know, like, again, a safe base.

Yes.

A safe place of attachment, a sense of being loved no matter what. Yeah. Their behavior could be called out, like, no, you cannot tear up the living room. That behavior is not okay. I love you. I love you. Whether you get the 13 points or the no points, just like, you're still grounded.

But I love you.

You're so grounded, you know, I love you, you know, and so that sort of consistency and safety. But it was interesting. I was just reading a research paper from 2014, and in this paper, they were talking about, how do you basically, how do you make a narcissistic adult out of a kid? One thing we're seeing a little bit right now is this problem of children being overvalued for nothing, celebrated for just being celebrated for, like, you're just so great. And it's that we. You're saying, well, what should we tell kids if they're not great? Well, great means Something right great is excelling. So you love a child, you cultivate their strengths, but the idea being that narcissistic parents are very vulnerable to thinking their kids are great because they have to be. They're my kids, so they better be great kids. So these kids are being told they're all that over and over, and you're all that. You're all that. You shouldn't. You're special. You shouldn't have to struggle with the slings and arrows of the world. Well, then they get to adulthood and the slings and arrows happen and they are not having it. And that's where you see that on top of everything else, can also be what fosters the building of the narcissistic child. Just overindulge. And what happens is they're almost. They're overindulged for their outsides and you're so special. But their emotional world isn't nourished, so nobody is sitting with their emotions and letting them be sad. It's many times like, come on, let's all be happy. You know, it's a lot of that. And that's a dangerous game to play with.

Would you say with your research, if kids grew up in a healthy family? Let's say it's. They got all the tools and resources and their parents were healed from their traumas and gave them, you know, discipline, but love and all these things in the way that. The best way you could. Is it possible for someone to still be raised as a narcissist even if they have this environment of love and safety? Or how does a narcissist become one? Is it only through family environment and the way they were treated or how does it actually happen?

So the problem, if you. If someone had all the fundamentals. Yes, right. The safety, the love, the consistency, the freedom from trauma, great values. The great values, all, you know, all of those things. Supportive, educational environment, all of that. You still will have a handful, but you will have dropped a probability from here down to here.

Okay.

Right. It's like a. Right. You've really dropped the likelihood significantly. Narcissism is creating. Adult narcissism is a complex inter blend of that biological temperament meeting up all these environmental conditions. And there's a range of conditions that can result in adulthood. Narcissism, at the most extreme and probably most difficult is trauma in childhood. So a child who is raised and experiences trauma, you know, significant caregiver loss, chaos, abuse, observing abuse, because that results in inconsistent caregivers. Right. And so that can put a person at risk for developing an adulthood narcissistic personality. But here's where it gets tricky. The majority of people exposed to trauma in childhood don't become narcissistic. You see, majority of people, we're talking about risk factors. You could, but you don't always. So that's one pathway. This overindulgence, this over like, you're so great, you're so special, you're so extraordinary. My kids are the most extraordinary thing. That's another model towards narcissistic personality development. Conditional love. Kobe Bryant's father I'm only gonna love you if you come back having scored 20 points. If you didn't, don't even show up. Now imagine that happening a thousand times, ten thousand times. I love you when. I love you when you clean the dishes. I love you if you get straight A's. I love you if you make the soccer goal. I love you if you. Whatever. The child learns that they're all love is conditional, which is really. That's transactional. Basically, all narcissistic relationships in adulthood are transactional. You set the tone there with conditionality. A lot of this, though, comes down to something called attachment. And attachment is something that's created in the first year or two of life. It requires an available, consistent, responsive caregiver. One singular. You need that. That person who is there who looks at the baby, who responds when it cries, who loves it, who holds it, who feeds it. You need that safe. It's called a secure attachment. A lot of the research really points to the importance of that secure attachment, that as being something that predicts a lower likelihood of adult narcissism.

So if you have a secure attachment, you're less likely if you don't have a.

If you have an anxious attachment and an anxiously attached baby is the child who absolutely flips out when their caregiver leaves. Like, you know, if the mommy drops them off and they lose it, then person who receives the child has a hard time soothing the child. And then when the child sees the parent again, they start crying again, almost like, how could you leave me?

You abandoned me for five hours.

And that anxious attachment style is very much associated with the narcissistic style.

Interesting.

In adulthood, yeah.

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Differences between narcissists, psychopaths, sociopaths, and then also how you spot them?

So there's a big difference. If I was at a chalkboard here, I'd be drawing a Venn diagram with overlapping circles. Okay. Lots of overlap between narcissism and psychopathy. Lots. Okay. The boldness, the meanness, the impulsivity, the disinhibition, the always working the angles. The exploitativeness, the manipulativeness, the entitlement. Absolutely overlapping. So you might be wondering, then, what's the difference? Here's the difference. Narcissistic people are insecure. And they are very insecure. Very insecure.

Gosh.

And lots of feelings of inadequacy. Okay, so. But that's all happening at an unconscious level. But I want you to think of a narcissist as somebody who constantly has a stomachache, right? Because they're going through their lives, but they're like. They're. They. There's almost this tension. They're not aware why they have it, but the tension that the top's gonna get blown off and we're gonna be able to see their inadequacies. That's why they're so sensitive to criticism.

Oh, my God.

Like, if I can't take feedback. Hey, like, yeah, it's interesting. You got some dust on your shirt, and you're like, oh, really? And you start coming at me.

Oh, no, you got this on yours. Criticizing you.

Yes. You see what I'm saying? That's a hedge against a shame. That's the narcissist game. Psychopath doesn't go there. Psychopath is not anxious. Psychopath is not insecure. Their nervous systems are different. So there's a part of our nervous system called the autonomic nervous system. This is the involuntary part of our nervous system. And it's. It's from which the sympathetic nervous system comes off, which, you know, is fight or flight or freeze. And that Fight, flight, freeze. And there's even a fourth part to it called fawn, which we could talk about. But that. That autonomic reaction that, like, boom, adrenaline got, you know, Eyes wide open kind of reaction, that's not there for the psychopath. So whereas I, I don't know if I saw something out there and I saw someone had a hundred dollar bill hanging out their wallet. Never could I ever, like, I would have a heart attack from the anxiety of thinking about like, no. You know, because I have a very probably overly functioning autonomic nervous system. But for somebody who's a psychopath, they'd clip that and their heart rate would.

Not, they would not think, they just nothing. Take it, steal it.

And so they have no anxiety, no excitement around it. No excitement, no anxiety. And they're very stress resistant. And that way. That's why there's so many psychopathic CEOs. If you're going to be a CEO and nothing bothers you, you're able to say, cut those hundred thousand jobs and then you still go off and play golf for the afternoon because nothing gets you. They sometimes make great surgeons because when all hell's breaking loose, they're just sort of calmly doing their surgery thing. It really is. But there is a coldness and a callousness.

Interesting.

Because there is almost like no capacity for empathy, no capacity for intimacy.

Interesting.

And psychopaths are almost singularly motivated by power, pleasure and profit, and mostly by power. They solely want to dominate because that's what they do. Narcissists like to dominate, but they actually kind of seem like dumb dogs next to the psychopaths.

Really? Yeah.

The closest we get to overlap is what we call malignant narcissism. So that's when we have all the goodies we see in narcissism, but we see as more of a sadism and a paranoia in the malignant narcissist. They're the most dangerous narcissists. They're still not fully psychopaths because they still have the insecurity and the inadequacy the psychopaths don't.

They're not insecure.

They're not insecure. No. I mean, if you, if you see a psychopath get mad, it's simply because you might have gotten in the way of something they needed to get done. You know what they'll instead do? They'll very quietly figure out a way to destroy you.

Get rid of.

Yeah, exactly. Or they'll calmly have someone say like, oh, literally look at you. If I was the psychopathic boss and you were working for me, I'd be like. And I'd be calm and I'd go. And then I don't know whether that means you Kill them or fire them or whatever. But no problem with that. And very.

They don't have the emotion. They don't have empathy.

No empathy.

Does narcissists have empathy?

Narcissists have. We tend to say, oh, they don't have empathy. They have what we call. I like to call it instrumental empathy. They weaponize empathy. So narcissists get what empathy is. They know.

They use it against you.

They use it to get what they need. They don't necessarily, necessarily use it against you, but, like, if they want to get you to do something. Oh, man. I heard your mom's sick.

Oh, man.

Oh, my gosh. How's she doing? I'm so sorry. Like, it's rough. You know, my mom was sick.

She.

She was really sick for a while, too. I get all that. And then, you know, it's a rapport. And then they're getting something from you, right? So it feels like empathy, you know, and especially when you first meet them. That's why so many people think narcissistic people are charming and charismatic. They know what the. They know what's right. Or I should say, they know what empathy is. They know how to read the room. So they got it, but they can't be bothered with it. They actually cognitively get it. They can think about empathy. I need something from him. Somebody said his mom's sick. So let me. Let me work the mom angle here, because that's going to help him feel better. What they don't have is any regard for. So they have no regard for the feelings of others. They don't care. So when they're done with you and they've gotten what they need from you, and someone's. The next week when they're fully done with you, and say, hey, his mom got sick and be like, so, yeah, so what do you want me to do about it? So it's very cold when they're done. So that it's. And that's why people say, well, don't tell me they don't have empathy. Because it seemed like they cried at that movie or they were really understanding my feelings. Odds are they needed something at that point.

So what was the most. The scariest narcissist.

What was it called?

Or the most dangerous, malignant narcissist. Okay, so can you explain again what that. What that is?

So let's talk about. Let's view narcissism as almost like this inner core, okay? And the inner core of narcissism is this variable empathy, usually a lack of empathy. Entitlement, grandiosity, validation, seeking, a sense of envy for other people or the assumption that other people envy them. The inability to regulate their anger when they're frustrated, disappointed or stressed. A sense of shame. So if anyone points out a flaw in them, they tend to react with rage. A reactive sensitivity to criticism. So if anyone points out anything, they, ah, they come at them blame shifting and responsibility shifting. So they blame other people for what, you know, what is actually their responsibility. They're very controlling, very egocentric. Everything is about them, everything is self serving, insecure, deeply insecure. Lots of feelings of inadequacy, but those are all sort of pushed down. All of these things I'm talking about, the entitlement and all the rest of it. It's like a suit of armor that protects that inner core of inadequacy. So nobody ever sees it. If I'm walking around telling you I'm all that well, then I can't be inadequate, right? And if I got a big fancy car and a big fancy house and a big fancy pack person on my arm, then I'm all that, right? So with narcissism, we have to talk about sort of the top of the line behaviors. And those are presentations, charm, charisma, confidence, curiosity. And they also.

Can you have those things and not be narcissist? You can, because I'm a very curious person. I care, you know, I'm like, so.

Here, here's where it gets interesting, right? Is you can be curious. And when you can find an empathic, charismatic person, behold them. They are the unicorns of the human being. Somewhere you really are like, when I meet the confident, charismatic, empathic, kind, respectful, humble person, It's a unicorn. I literally, I'm like, okay, everyone. And I can tell you it doesn't happen often. And I'm usually like, I look goo goo eyes. Cause I'm thinking. And then of course I'm poking at it. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm gonna find. I'm fine. What's wrong with it? Every so often I find it and I'm like, it hasn't happened often. It hasn't happened often. But here's the thing. The charm, the charisma, the confidence, the curiosity, there's also comfort that they also offer. It's like they'll often feel like they're rescuers. I can take care of it all. They'll be very generous up front. It's all a front game, right? So what happens then? The curtain comes down across all your competition, common sense and you miss a little amazing. Yeah.

And people.

And if you either you miss the lack of empathy and the anger and the rage and all the other stuff, or you justify it, you just. Well, yeah, you know, he's got a big job, or she's really stressed, or she doesn't mean that, or that's just their culture. I was reading an article by a linguist recently, and the linguist was talking about how people talk over each other in certain cultures. Right. And they were using that as a way to rationalize interrupting. And there's interrupting, and there's interrupting. Narcissistic interrupting is not only. It's. It's contemptuous interrupting.

What's that mean?

Like dismissive interrupting?

Like. Okay, all right. You know, you're talking, and then I not only cut in, but it's basically.

Like your point of view doesn't matter, or. Yeah, you're. You're an idiot. I know what's really. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you share some of these signs of malignant.

No, that's. Okay, so let's go back to the core. So we got the core of lack of empathy, all that stuff I talked about.

Yes, yes.

Now, the problem with narcissism is there's subtypes.

Oh, my gosh.

Not all narcissists are created. We really do need a whiteboard. I'd be writing notes up there. Because what we have then is the classical narcissist. The sort of 57 Chevy of narcissism is the grandiose narcissist. It is the big, charming, confident. I'm the one, I'm the best. No insight, very little empathy, kind of. But very, like, big salespersony. That's the grandiose narcissist. But then when we talk about the malignant narcissist, again, we have all that stuff, lack of empathy and all that other stuff. But they are more menacing, they are more controlling, they're a little bit more scary, they're sadistic, they're paranoid.

What if they have both of those things?

Usually they can. They can. And what would. That's a horrific combination because then that person's real charming on the front end. And then once you cross the threshold and walk all the way in with them, now you're dealing with their malignant, manipulative, scary. And when we see controlling. When we see manipulative narcissists. Manipulative. I'm sorry, malignant narcissism, we're seeing people who are often. They're more likely to be aggressive, to be violent, to be abusive. To isolate people from ever being able to get help, from being abusive in the workplace. We hear these big, awful workplace abuse stories, especially a lot in the MeToo era. A lot of those folks are malignant narcissists.

Right? So what happens if you're with a narcissist? Maybe it's been a year, you've been dating someone or your boss. Didn't seem like it at the beginning, but then you're figuring out, oh, check, check, check. They've got a lot of these things. But, you know, the first six months seemed great, or it seemed like it was amazing. But now we're seeing the curtain pull back and some of these things are coming out and we're not feeling good about the relationship we're in. Whether it's a working relationship, a friendship, an intimate relationship, we've spotted it. What I'm hearing you say is there's really no way to change a narcissist. So trying to change them, it's not gonna happen.

It's a fool.

Therapy doesn't mean we just pretty much have to rip the cord and rip the band aid and get out or how does it.

That simple. Yeah, right. We can't walk away from all relationships. People can't just quit their jobs. Let's say a person starts figuring this out five years in a relationship and they're married. What if it's their family of origin? And they're like, I've done my homework, and this is actually my parent or my sibling. People say, well, I don't know that I'm willing to cut off from my entire family. So. So I'm not going to sit here and tell people that, oh, you just got to always go. In fact, my first book on the topic of narcissism is called Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist. And I wrote it from that point of view because it's too simplistic to say, well, get up and go. Like you said, rip off the band aid, and neither path is easy. But in an ideal world, I will be frank with you, and there's actually an interesting group in Israel has gathered some data on this on narcissistic abuse. And they found that the thing that works best in dealing with a narcissistic relationship that resulted in the best outcomes was going, no contact. Like having no contact with them, completely blocking, cutting off. Because it's almost like a toxin, right? If there's a toxic gas, the best way to feel better is to eliminate no more toxic gas.

You have a little bit.

You're just gonna be feeling a little bit of pain consistently. It's gonna be holding on to it.

Correct. But a lot of people don't have. So the biggest. If you're gonna have to stay in this relationship, you have to engage in something that I and others have called radical acceptance. This is never gonna change.

This is who they are.

This is who they are. This is it. So. And then I tell people I have something called the deep technique that I talk about. The deep technique is when I tell people, if you're dealing with a narcissist, don't defend, don't engage. Don't explain, don't personalize. So deep. Don't defend, don't engage. Don't explain. Explain. Don't personalize. And so when they're coming at you, and if you can remember, you really are keeping it tight. It's a lot of. It's like you're in a deposition. Yes. No. Okay, Sounds good. Sure. Now, man, narcissists don't like that because.

They'Re gonna keep coming and digging and digging.

They're gonna bait you. They're gonna bait you. And they. When I tell you when they bait you, they. They don't play.

They go for everything.

They go for everything that's gonna make something up. They start making stuff up. They go after your friends. They draw your friends in it, threatening.

To shame you publicly, whatever it is.

Right?

And so then at some people, people take that bait, and then the narcissist, like, game on, you know? And they're all, I got you. Because when you're fighting, they're fighters. That's what they do. In fact, there was a great research study came out from Ohio State University, Ohio boy. And phenomenal study that came out this year. And over.

Over.

Over 450 studies, they examined and found really strong effects that narcissism is consistently associated with aggression. It's a very. It's. This is not. There's nothing soft about this. This is about aggression. They want the fight. They are always a better fighter.

Oh, my gosh.

And they want the fight. So they bait you. You gotta be made of steel. Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain. To not get into the fight. Every relationship with a narcissist is a threesome. You just don't know it because they always need that third person in the relationship. Whether it's someone gave me the number or someone's noticing me, this person DM me or this person hitting on me, always trying to. And they're always trying to create that sense of intrigue or the idea that somebody is more into them or they're. Or again, it's often them creating the jealousy or they be incredibly jealous of their partners. Oh, there's a difference.

They're so jealous.

Jealousy and pathological jealousy. Jealousy, there's two different things. Okay, so jealousy is normal. We are a. Actually we're a pair bonded species. We human beings. We are, we, we like that. We pretty much are about generally normatively have sex with one person. People are like, no, that person cheated on me. Said, yeah, they were only having sex with them. They weren't having sex with you.

Right.

They were still sexually monogamous. They weren't banging you. They were expecting someone else. You were on page, were in a relationship with them. You came, you went to the same home, but their sex was with someone else. Okay, but we tend to be pair bonded. We tend to be monogamous. All right, so jealousy is a threat to that. Think of it Darwinianly, right? If, if I'm in a, if I'm in a relationship and a threat comes in, right. Normal jealousy is that sort of evolutionary jealousy, right? I'm with a person. If somebody is. Comes in as a threat to that relationship, I've lost the resources and support for our offspring, right? That's all that Darwinian stuff, pathological jealousy. Pathological jealousy, though, that starts getting into the realm of things like paranoia and oh my gosh and negative mood states and all that. Like, jealousy doesn't feel good. But when I've worked with couples, they're like, I'm jealous. I'm like, that's good. That means you still got skin in the game. Like, because when people I've been with, people worked with couples and, or worked with individuals and they'll say, I'm not even jealous. When people notice my husband, I kind of feel sad because I'm like, yeah, this thing, this thing's kind of done.

I feel like, yeah, I don't feel jealous. I feel like I trust the person I'm with.

Yeah, but that's what we're talking about, pathological jealousy, right? So I think of my partner, ironically, on my drive here, he was talking about something and about this woman who I knew we were going to have to see who had hit on him. And this dude is so loyal, levels it to a whole new level. And I remember thinking in the drive room, like, I got that little funny thing in my tummy. I. And I'm like, huh, he doesn't Even live in this country. And so I'm thinking that's. And I was like, that's good, that's good that I'm still feeling. I still got a dog in the fight.

But it doesn't mean you're like letting it stress you out and like talking.

To them about it.

Only because we're talking about it.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. And so the.

What are you saying?

What's the paranoid paranoia, the pathological jealousy.

Pathological jealousy?

Yeah.

That's a narcissistic.

That's more of an. It's more paranoid, it's more antagonistic. It's more about you must be doing something you're doing. So it's accusatory. It's almost delusional.

Oh my gosh. Okay. What would you say again are the main causes, what are the main things that happen to cause someone to become a narcissist?

Is it all trauma based?

It's no, it's partly trauma. It's also that temperament. It is chaos in the early environment. It's lack of secure attachment, it's overvaluation of the child. Basically the child can do no wrong. And they're so wonderful. I mean it's interesting. We're about to see something fascinating happen and I don't know how it's going to go down. We're about to see because what Facebook's coming up on 20 years soon, right? We're about to see the first generation of kids who are born into the Facebook world where every moment being documented and shared since they were born. Since they were born. This is the first time we're going to be seeing this. So I bless the people out there who are going to start collecting this data because we now have, you know, you're going to see what happens if you were. Because I had kids way before this, so I did not. The only people saw their pictures were people actually your friends and family, put them in an envelope, mailed a picture.

Kind of thing, came over to the.

House and looked at the baby. Came to the house and looked the actual baby. But this is a whole new game for kids who basically were accessories to their parents parents lives. Like, look at my child this. Look at my child this. Look at my child this. Every day there's a new picture.

So is it. Do you think it's okay to share some of your family life on social media and some of your children's, you know, special moments? Or do you think we should be protecting our kids at all costs and never show their face, never show anything until they're whatever, 10.

It's a super interesting area. There's some actually really interesting thinking and writing about this, which is these children aren't consenting to this. Are these children consenting to you showing them have a meltdown? Or, you know, we see all these silly child videos and sometimes I kind of feel a little sadness because these things stay evergreen. They didn't agree to that. And as much as we say, oh no, it's so cute. Is it still, they didn't consent. It's a vulnerability, right? So there's some, I know some folks in the developmental sphere of psychology saying, oh, this may not be entirely cool.

What happens when the kids 23 and they start going back and seeing all these like, things that their mom or dad posted and they're like, huh, that's not really cool. I wish you wouldn't have done that to me.

But it goes beyond that because even when the child is young, there's this sense of things are constantly being done to them without them agreeing to it.

Posing and put these clothes on and.

Do this and let's post you in a public way. And then the child also gets this sense of their utility, their importance to their parents is their social media Persona. You look so pretty in your dress. You look so cute in your costume. Like you're wondering, are you costuming your child for Halloween for you or for them?

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Except for the validation. Yes, exactly.

And that's tough because I have, I have friends who never show their kids stuff, and then I have friends who do show their kids. And man, it's just like, yeah, how do we, how do we navigate that conversation? And how do we.

We're building this airplane in the sky.

Oh, man.

And so the challenge becomes then that I would say it's a balancing act between parents talking to each other. Both parents. But also, I think there's the larger issue of how much is the child feeling that they're valued, validated for being the kid who poses in social media. Right. Because what does every child want? They want their parents love, attention, Love and attention. All they want is their parents love and attention. So if they start to recognize that if I'm looking good on social media and mommy's getting validated, then they'll put on the weird thing they want her to wear or do the thing that she wants them to do. But what's not happening is that their interest, what they value, may not be cultivated or everything's a photo op. It's as though the child feels that they're constantly on display versus just having a moment where they're being present and mindful. And it doesn't all have to be documented that I'm, I've been, frankly, as a psychologist I'm concerned about when these chickens come home to roost and they're going to.

Let's say there are parents that are posting about their kids online. You know, maybe they have a small following. Maybe it's to a private group of.

Their friends and family, kind of a different game.

Or it's the ones that have a bigger following. If they were gonna be posting and they have a bigger following, let's say, not to their friends and family, what would be appropriate that you think psychologically, in a healthy manner, to be able to talk about your family and your kids? Is there a healthy way psychologically that's going to, you know, I think that not mess them up or, you know.

Being present with your children emotionally being aware of their needs, of not turning them into a performing pony in your circus. Do you know, I mean, again, I say this as the mom of two kids, right? And there are moments when you think, well, this is the day we're going to take such and such picture. Somebody's sick, someone's crying, someone has torn their dress. Someone is this. And if you get angry at them because they've ruined your finely laid plans, that child then starts getting that conditional sense of, I am only about this person's finally laid plans. Listen, we all do it. We all screw up. We all do that conditionality to our kids. It's almost impossible to not. It's how quickly we catch ourselves and say, that's not what they want. This is not. This is, we're going to Disneyland because they want to go to Disneyland. We're going to the park. They want to go to the park. Not because what a great day for a photo op. Like, I've been on vacation and I've watched families, like practically, I mean, literally screaming, we need the. I thought grass mask car.

And I'm like, oh, my God, pay attention.

Look here.

Just splash and be sandy and muddy. They're at the beach. And it's that kind of obsessive zeal because all of that social comparison of people wanting to put out the false self. And what is narcissism?

Narcissism is the false self. It's a mask.

It's always a mask. Because it's the mask of what they think the world wants, how the world wants them to look, which is why more and more people are looking the same. They're getting the same cosmetic procedures. They have the same bodies, they're driving the same cars. They're really sort of shills for this sort of artificial mask that's a Narcissist game. Narcissism is the opposite of authenticity.

It's so interesting because four years ago I wrote a book called the Mask of Masculinity which is about. And I interviewed a lot of psychologists and, and experts on these kind of personality traits and these masks that men wear. And I wrote about it because I realized I was wearing a mask, a couple of different masks for many different years of my life, to protect myself, to try to fit in, to try to be liked and loved by society. One of them being like the athlete mask. It's like I always had to win at all costs. I needed to be number one and if I ever lost or got second, then no one would ever love me. So at all costs I was like training and developing myself to be the best athlete I could be. And I was a horrible loser. I was a sore loser. I couldn't handle it. I would get angry, I would be like moody, I would be like frustrated and I'm not good enough. I'd beat myself up and train obsessively until I got better. Until I could make sure that I could put myself in a better position athletically. And there's these different masks that men wear. And I realized that it's all about trying to fit in. It was all about men trying to fit in and trying to belong. But it's not the authentic self.

Correct. And that, I mean that's. Maybe we'll have a different day. I'll come in and talk to you about the authentic self. Because it's such a big conversation when we look at the work of Carl Rogers, right. The humanistic psychologist and even other humanists like Abraham Maslow. So these were the big players in that humanist universe. This idea of authenticity and self actualization. So if you were to view human growth as a mountain, self actualization is the summit. It's the top I, I can. In my lifetime. I've met five self actualized people and it was unforgettable. And they were always older. I think it's hard to self actualize when you're younger. And they were deeply authentic. I mean like you, you did feel like you were in this, in the, in the face of greatness with them. But some form ordinary like one. Where was a man who was a. He was an auto mechanic in Johannesburg. And I was like, I am in the presence of absolute greatness right now.

What did that feel like?

Absolute serenity. I felt at one with him, at one with the situation. I felt more calmed down. I felt like I could keep Listening to him. This was a man with almost no education who, again, he fixed cars in Johannesburg. And actually in a. Pretty. In a. Not in the nicest of surroundings. And he was Joy. Like, he was just human joy. And it's not because he was laughing, but he was so proud of what. And anyone looking at it, like, there's not a lot happening here, but it was this genuine, authentic, like, please come into my. Look at my beautiful space. This is my life. And the other person I met who was. Same thing, Joy. And that man, that Johannesburg man, I'm still not in touch with, but this other man, I am. And he is somebody who had a moment in his life, and he decided to devote his life to children and families living in poverty in India. And I worked with a school he was working with in India. And I remember sitting with him. We were kind of actually kind of sitting next to an open sewer, and it smelled like an open sewer. He's just chilling. He's just chilling. And I'm like, I could have sat there all day. And it was hot and there were flies. It was uncomfortable, and. And he was magnificent. And it wasn't just the mechanic guy wasn't out there saving the world. He was fixing cars. This guy happened to be doing something for a very small community in this village in India, right? They weren't saying he was in service. The other one was not. But there was such a congruence between who they were as human beings and how they conducted themselves and how they were in the world. There was no sense of, someone has more. I want what they have. Someone's got it better. Why is that happening? How come they got their turn first? And I remember when I think about them, I have the photograph of the gentleman from Johannesburg. This other man I'm still in touch with. And I need that to sort of try to get myself recalibrated to my center. But again, the opposite of narcissism. No mask whatsoever. They were just in themselves. What a life. Like, what a gorgeous life.

You mentioned the. The deep technique. Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize. So how do you argue or communicate with a narcissist to get, like, your point across? If you need to get it across, you don't. You don't.

You can't. So sometimes I tell people, but do we.

Life is meant to be lived in a beautiful way.

Not with them.

So that we should just rip the bandage.

You know what I mean?

Not necessarily. We can't, right? So, like I said, you know, I'll give you an example, okay? Narcissistic divorce. Family court and family law is not written around saying narcissistic parents aren't good for kids. So if you're a parenting of the narcissist, we're gonna give the other parent full custody. Not happening.

Yeah.

State of California. 50. 50. All right. Unless somebody doesn't want that. So what happens then is a person says, if I decide to split up from person, I'm only going to be with my kids 50% of the time, and I don't want them with that influence 50% of the time. So some people will stay. My favorite is when people file for divorce, like the day of their youngest child's 18th birthday. I'm like, I don't know what that was about. You see that happen quite a bit. They literally wait till the end of day, and then at 18, those kids are free agents. So there's no. No one can say, you have to be here. You have to stay here. You have to celebrate this holiday with that or anything. They get to call their own shots.

So how do you.

So you just have to have extreme patience. I feel like it's.

It's beyond patience. It's radical acceptance. Patience is endurance. Radical acceptance.

This thing sounds exhausting.

Is getting. It is absolutely exhausting. It's just knowing that this isn't going to change. You ever spend time in Chicago? I'm sure you have, right? Go to Chicago. It's February in Chicago.

Oh, it's miserable.

Are you going to go for a run in just your shorts and no shirt?

No. Unless you're crazy.

Yeah. Okay. Why? Because in February in Chicago, it's cold. Radical acceptance.

Yeah. So you just accept it, Right.

If your window's facing east and you don't want the sun to wake you up, get curtains. Radical acceptance. You cannot talk to a narcissist. So I tell people. There's another concept I use is something called true north. Sometimes you have to get into the argument, true north are those things that you're going to fight for because they're so. They're. They're important to your core values. So who you are. For some folks, it's their kids. For some people, it may be a cause they believe in or a belief they have or they will not listen to, I don't know, prejudicial language. True north gets activated, and they'll say, I'm taking the fight. They pull off the gloves, they pull out the earrings, and then they're in. They're just. They'll go at it. It is exhausting.

Nothing good happens, does it?

Nothing good happens, right? But at least they can say, I took the fight, Dr. Romani, so I could live with myself to know that I fought for myself, I stood up. But do not get into the fight about the dishwasher, or why were you late to the party, or why were you rude to my sister or whatever. I mean, if you keep taking every fight, it's exhausting the minute you let go. You know what happens though, is when a person finally gives up, they're overwhelmed with grief. They're like, there's no there. There's nothing here. There's nothing to talk about. I can't tell them good news because they make fun of it or they dismiss it. I can't tell them bad news because they, they get really angry and rageful. So all we can really talk about is the weather. I'm like, uh huh.

But that's. I mean, what do you do with the rest of your time?

You cultivate other stuff in your life, interests.

Can you actually.

Can you love a narcissist or is it impossible to love a narcissist?

It's a subjective question, right? Love is such a complicated word. It means something different to you. It means something different to me, means different things to the people out in the street. So the, and that's the bigger question I often get is, can a narcissist love?

Is that possible?

It depends on, besides loving themselves, what is cold to you? Right? You're in short sleeves. I'm in a sweater.

Yeah.

You know, so it's, it's, it's a subjective word. So can a person, lots of people love narcissists. They do. They're like, I love this person. I. They represent something to me. Maybe this is where it starts getting to a philosophical question. Maybe when we love someone, it's very, it's very, it is very representational. We love what they stand for, we love what we believe they are. But we don't know, maybe we never know someone enough to love them. So, you know, again, that's a philosophical conversation. But when it comes down to it, there are people out there who will say, I do. They'll. Parents are a great example. People have narcissistic parents, like, I love my mother or I love my father. I can't stand that.

Them.

Sure.

But love is much more metaphysical.

Yeah, right. So what's the biggest misconceptions about a narcissist then?

Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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