Take Control Of Your Life & Never Be Lazy Again EP 1280

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350 miles. 350 miles without sleeping.

Yeah, in 81 hours. How does your body keep going after the first night?

I just focus on the here and now, and I just tell myself, Welcome.

To the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. People age at different speeds and the date on your license may not represent your inner biological age at all. And if you're looking for ways to extend your health span and slow down the aging process, the keys to your health and longevity run in your blood. That's why InsideTracker provides you with a personalized plan to boost your metabolism, reduce stress, improve sleep, and optimize your health for the long haul. It's created by leading scientists in aging, genetics, and biometrics. InsideTracker analyzes your blood, your DNA, and fitness tracking data to identify where you're optimized and where you're not. You'll get a daily action plan with personalized guidance on the right exercise, nutrition, and supplementation for your body. Add Inner Age 2.0 to any plan for a definitive calculation of your true biological age to see how you're aging from the inside out. And when I got my results back from Inside Tracker, they told me and I quote, Louis, you're beating the clock. And that feels good. But if you know how competitive I am, you know I'm still going to keep working towards a lower and lower inner age. And now that Inside Tracker has shown me my biological age, they are now providing an action plan of science-backed recommendations with the goal of improving quality and quantity of the years ahead. And one of the things recommended for me was intermittent fasting seven days a week. This is something that I've tried out before and I've loved it. So it's refreshing to know that it's in fact the right choice for my body. For a limited time, get 20% off the entire InsideTracker store. Just go to insideTracker.com/school-of-greatness for more. Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have Dean Karnazes in the house. My man. So good to see you, man. You're a legend. You're an inspiration.

So grateful that you're here. That's a paid endorsement here.

You have done some incredible things. I just want to read a few things. You've run 50 marathons in all 50 states. Consecutive days, 50 days, you've done Death Valley in the middle of summer and a marathon to the South Pole. How many miles total do you feel.

Like you've run in your life, do you know? You know, back a napkin, probably 100,000. Maybe a little more than 100,000.

100,000 miles.

Yeah.

What is that if you could go around the earth how many times? I don't know, do you even know what that is?

Yeah, it's a little over four.

Four times around the earth running. That's incredible.

Yeah.

And you've been doing it for how long now?

You know, I started when I was five. Uh-huh. But I got into hardcore ultra-marathoning 30 years ago. So coming up on three decades.

Three decades consistently. When you were 30, you got into it, right? When your 30th birthday, you ran 30.

Miles, is that right? Yeah, I walked out of a bar. in San Francisco drunk on my 30th birthday. And I was drinking with my buddies. I was doing what you do on your 30th birthday. And at midnight I told them I'm leaving. They said, let's have another round of tequila to celebrate. And I said, no, I'm gonna run 30 miles to celebrate right now instead. And they looked at me and they said, but you're not a runner. You know, you're drunk. And I said, I am, and I'm still gonna do it. Wow. And I walked out of the bar. I'll never forget, I didn't own running gear, but I had on these silk boxer shorts, like these silk underwear. So I peeled off my pants and just threw them down the alleyway and started stumbling south knowing that Half Moon Bay was 30 miles away. And I thought, just run to Half Moon Bay.

30 miles one direction.

Yeah.

And how did you get back?

Well, you know, I sobered up about 10 miles down the road. What the hell am I doing? This is not a good idea. But something just felt right. Like it was the most spiritual moment I've ever had. Like it was as though I felt like I was supposed to be where I was doing what I was doing at that moment in time. It's like God said, you're doing what you put on earth to do. Just keep going.

What was your vision 15 years prior to that? Within those 15 years where you weren't running?

Yeah, you know, I went to college, I went to graduate school, then I went and got a business degree and MBA, and I thought if I had a great job and a fat paycheck and stock options and company car, I'm living in San Francisco, I'm a yuppie, if you remember that term. I thought I'd be just so happy, so fulfilled, and I was just hollow inside. Really? Oh, it was empty. I hated being a business guy. It wasn't part of my composition. It was just so foreign to me. I didn't like doing deals. And I was doing a lot of deals, making a lot of cash, and just was miserable. And I think that night it just came to a head.

It was a reflection moment. It was your birthday. It was a decade birthday. You were like, do I really wanna do this?

Where do I want to go? Yeah, this woman starts hitting on me that I knew, that was friends with my wife as well. You know, I married my high school sweetheart. I never had an affair or anything like that, and she starts hitting on me. And I'm like, you know, I'm married and she's like, so am I. She shows me a ring and then she keeps hitting on me. Oh man. And I'm like, I could see the writing on the wall. Like, where is my life gonna go? Am I gonna wake up at 50, you know, with my third wife bald, driving a really nice Ferrari or something? Or am I gonna just follow my heart and like do what I really love?

Wow. Yeah. Well, you used to run when you were growing up, right? Didn't you run in high school too, some?

Yeah, I was a good runner. I ran as a freshman on the high school cross country team in San Clemente. So just close by. East town nearby. We won the league championships and I thought that's as far as I'm ever gonna take my running. Really?

Yeah, I'm like, I'm over it.

So you didn't want to go on to college and run or? No, I didn't harbor any desires. I like cross-country. It was kind of a ragtag group of guys.

We were like skinny hippies.

Yeah, yeah, hippies is what we were. And the track guys, there was this track guys that were running around the track, and they were lanky and had really thin shoulders. We were like surfers, a bunch of just grungy guys. We didn't know what the hell we were. We were running on trails. No one knew what that was about. And my cross-country coach, Benner Cummings, was like this sage. At the finals, the league finals, I was cramping up and I said, Benner, what do I do? Like my legs, I'm not sure what's going on. I'm tightening up. He's like, Don't run with your legs. Run with your heart. And I'm like, Wow, okay, I'll run with my heart. And the track guys were all about, All right, you know, yelling and banging on their clipboards. I'm like, I want to run with my heart. Like I just want to go run on a trail somewhere and just I don't need it.

How do you switch from when you're in pain with a cramp in your side or a cramp in your legs, from shifting your mindset to feeling that pain to transitioning it into running into your heart?

Yeah, you learn to embrace the pain instead of running from it and to celebrate the pain and to value it as an emotion. You want to experience the full range of human emotions. the joyous joys, the super highs, you know, the runner's high, and just the devastating lows when you're in so much pain you don't feel like you can take another step.

How do you overcome it if it feels crippling to you so that it doesn't stop you?

You know, there are levels of pain and levels of where I go when I'm confronting pain. And, you know, some of these runs I've done, you know, I've run hundreds of miles nonstop. through multiple nights without sleep. And when the pain gets so intense, you just want it to stop. When you're struggling, you want it to go away. And you start thinking about where's the next aid station? Where's the next fuel stop? I mean, you just ran a marathon. You're at a point, you're counting. There's mile 13. Where's the mile 14?

I'm looking for the mile 14.

Everything. So I just put on the blinders to the future. Anything in the future is irrelevant. and I don't reflect on the past. I just focus on the here and now. And I just tell myself, take your next footstep to the best of your ability. Okay. Take your next footstep to the best of your ability. Don't think about when the next HHC is coming. Don't think about the finish line. Don't think about anything except your next footstep. And so it's almost zen like. It's like you're almost in a. In a trance where you're just saying, next footstep, next footstep. And I'll do that sometimes for five or six hours, where that's all I do.

Where you're in pain though.

You don't feel anything. You go someplace else and you just say, Take your next footstep. And it takes some discipline, because your mind wanders. I mean, our minds are so active. We're always thinking about this or that, and I don't let that happen. I always bring myself back to my next footstep. Yeah.

Is there a period of time where you're like, okay, let's say you're experiencing pain in your legs or your lungs for a half an hour, and then you get into this trance, you get in this state. Does it eventually the pain just goes away where you feel nothing or you're just so present, you're in a runner's high or what happens? How do you transition that pain?

I think by being in the present, the here and now, and taking your focus away from the pain just to your next footstep, it just kind of It amorphizes and just kind of, you know, goes into the ether.

You transcend it.

You transcend it, yeah. Yeah. And it's almost like a numbness. You don't feel necessarily good. You don't feel necessarily bad. You just are there. You're just a presence, yeah.

So what would you say you were on a scale of one to 10 on your 30th birthday before you started that run in terms of self-confidence and self-love? Being 10 being at the highest, one being at the lowest. Where were you that day? before the run?

I was confused. Yeah, I didn't feel a sense of purpose. There was no meaning in my life. I think I was maybe depressed. I mean, now that we understand a lot more about depression, I think that there was an emptiness, a hollowness that just was with me all the time. I couldn't necessarily pinpoint it. You know, I thought I was supposed to be happy. You know, I had a great house, you know, a great car. these things were supposed to bring me happiness. And I think I was so comfortable, I was miserable. So, you know, my self-esteem was not very high. I mean, it was just, it was a turbulent time. So were you not running or working out at all?

Were you doing like a couple miles here and there? Were you lifting? Were you doing just kind of hanging out? What were you doing? Yeah, I got into windsurfing.

So I was windsurfing, you know, and I was living in San Francisco. Good wind. Yeah, good wind up there. So I was windsurfing. I wasn't a slacker. but I had a little punch, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't no cardiovascular health whatsoever. I remember walking upstairs and I'd get winded. Yeah.

So you were comfortable, you were making money, you had the physical things on the outside of what the world was looking for, but you felt like you had no meaning, no real desire and no purpose. Is that right?

Yeah, I mean, my life was rudderless. Like, you know, where is this all leading to?

Just kind of wandering. Do you think it's possible for us to be fulfilled without a purpose?

If you're highly enlightened, I think so. If you're a monk, yeah.

Unless that's your purpose maybe, yeah.

That's a good point. Yeah, maybe that is your purpose.

But do you think of someone's doing activities in life that doesn't align with their unique talents and their unique desires or their unique vision of life of who they want to be? Can they be truly fulfilled?

I don't think so. No, I don't. I think that everyone has a desire to be something. And I always tell people like when they say to me, I don't know what I want to do, what I want to be, I just say, just take out a pen and script your perfect life. Just say, tomorrow morning when I wake up, I can be and do anything I want. Just write down freeform. Where would I be living? You know, what would I be doing? You know, get very granular. What kind of car would I be driving? what would make me, like, what would I really love to do if I didn't have to go to work tomorrow and I could just do whatever I wanted? And, you know, like, I did this with my son. He's like, oh, yeah, I'll be at a Tahiti at a beach drinking a Mai Tai.

And then he thought about it, and.

He'S like, after a month, it gets boring. Yeah. He kind of thought about that. He's like, you know, I want to be a sportscaster. Like, I really love sports, and it's like, I I. That's kind of what I want to do. I'm like, why are you selling commercial real estate? But until you have that kind of blueprint, if you don't know where you're going, you're never going to get there. So at least you have some idea of like, my perfect life would look like this. And you have some idea of the direction you want to move.

So from 30 to 40, you took on a lot of ultra-marathon running, right? In the first decade, would you say? Was that where you did a lot of it?

Yeah, it's been. I keep thinking, you know, I'm gonna age out of this. I mean, I just ran a 100 miler in Patagonia a couple weeks ago. So, it's still going. Yeah.

The first decade of doing this though, what would you say was the number one thing you learned about yourself from 30 to 40 doing the ultras?

That I was better than I thought I was, and I could go further than I thought I could. I think that running teaches you that your limitations are all up here. Because if someone had said to me, hey, you're gonna go run 100 miles, I would have said, what? Over how many weeks? Or where are the hotels you sleep in along the way? And you proved to yourself that, wow, I did it. I did something that I thought was impossible. And for a lot of people, it's a marathon. People hear, I say to them, you should run a marathon. They think, It's other people that run a marathon. It's never me.

I'm like, that's why you should run a marathon. Yeah, it's one of the reasons why I did it. I was, I just turned 39. I remember thinking to myself, it'd be good to do one before I'm 40, right? Just to say I've done it. Cause I've never wanted, I've had no desire to do a marathon. I've always been a sprinter like we were talking about before. Played football, basketball, all that stuff. And three miles was a lot. I would do it as a workout, but I didn't enjoy it.

Yeah.

I was like, why am I gonna push myself for 26? You know, it seemed like just not fun or enjoyable. Yeah. And then I switched it. I watched the LA Marathon a couple of years ago, and I was just so inspired by all the body types, all the age ranges.

Yeah.

And people going at every pace, you know, I was like, okay, I don't have to win this thing. I can just enjoy it my first time and see how it is. Yeah. And see what I learned in that accomplishment of whatever the five or six hours. And it was a powerful lesson to see, you know, how far I could push myself. And I think the challenge is when I would run or try to do longer miles, five or eight miles, which is not long, that's a walk for you, that's a warm up for you. But when I was trying to do those five or eight milers before, I didn't have a strategy. And so I would kind of burn out quickly. I would run it like it was a sprint, get tired, need to walk and think, how am I going to do this marathon thing?

Yeah.

And it wasn't until I created a game plan of saying, I don't need to win. I'm just going to, you know, take it at my pace and complete this and have a game plan. It's when it became more enjoyable in the process. And I think for anyone who hasn't done, you know, any distances, creating the game plan first and making it more enjoyable, not about the suffering or the pain, and the pain definitely came, but I had a game plan on how to manage it, and that allowed me to get through it. So that's, that's what worked for me, at least.

Did you have a time goal or.

Just to just break six hours? Which, again, it's very, it's like you can walk a marathon and do that, but I, for a big guy, you know, 6'4 240. I was like, I, my goal was to not get injured. That was the main goal. I was like, I want to be able to walk the next day because I had done 29-0-2-9 where I kind of tweaked my hip because I pushed it too hard the first time. Then the second time I was flying. I did So I was like, I want to be able to walk and be able to work out within a day or two. And I want to be able to finish it within six hours. And I don't want to be in extreme pain where I'm pushing, because I know my mind will push through an injury and I'll hurt myself. If I'm committed to it, I'll finish it. But it's like, I don't want to be injured and regretting it. So it's kind of like, let me just get through this and enjoy it. I also said I want to smile on every mile. So I'm gonna smile every mile. And literally I was just like so happy to be there. I was like just smiling at people, high fiving people, I was engaging with the moment. And that made it, I can remember at 8, 10 miles, I was like, oh, this is fun. You know, I brought joy to the experience, not this scary suffering, you know, thought that I had had for so long. I think that allowed me to get through it a lot easier.

Yeah, for you to run a marathon is tough because just your size. I mean, the more weight you carry, the bigger you are, the tougher it is. And I mean, I really admire that you stuck to it. And you're going to do New York.

I'm doing New York. So maybe I'll try to get, if I could break 5:30, I think that'll be a win. It'll be a huge win.

New York's tough.

Yeah, it's a fun journey though. I'm glad I did it because I said I'm only going to do one and then I'm done. And then that week I was like, you know what? My legs feel okay. Let's sign up for New York. And at least do New York and LA, and you know, we'll see from there.

I think you gotta do like a 50-miler as well. In LA, in this area, there's some great 50, even a 50K, which is 31 miles.

That sounds more reasonable to me.

On the trails, it's a different game. It might take you eight or 10 hours. Really? Yeah, the hills. The hills are so steep, you can't, even the elite athletes can't run up some of the hills. It's what they call unrunnable. Holy moly. So you power hike up?

Yeah. So you hike, so it's gonna take eight hours?

Take eight hours. That's interesting. And you're out there by yourself a lot more. Like the, you know, the LA Marathon, San Francisco Marathon, New York City Marathon, you're surrounded by humanity. When you do a, like an ultra.

On the trails, there's a lot of time you're out there by yourself just in nature. It's a different experience, yeah.

It's probably a lot harder because you don't have the cheering and the support and everyone running with you.

The solo runner.

I don't know. I mean, you have moments with yourself, you know, when you're in nature. I mean, you know, you can get enough of most things in life, but never nature. You know, that's one thing you just can never get, me at least can never get enough of.

What was the biggest lesson you learned from 40 to 50 in that decade of running?

That I could still keep it up and still keep be competitive, you know, it's still, I mean, I won the world's toughest foot race we were talking about, the Badwater Ultramarathon. 42. Yeah. And I mean, that's the most elite of the elite in the sport. And, you know, you hear about, like, Nedell, who's 35, or 30, I think he turned 36. He was just like, amazing. He's been going for so long, which is amazing. But here they're ultra marathoners in their mid-40s that are, you know, winning these races.

Yeah. And then how are you now?

Ah, I'm closer to 60 than 50.

Closer to 60. So in this decade from 50 to where you are now, what's been the.

Biggest lesson from running itself or just that the history of ultra marathoning has been around a long time. So I'm 100 Greek, and I started studying Classics, and I started learning about the ancient Greeks and how they had these foot Heralds called him or the roomy that were essentially a faster internet. The Greeks realized that In the mountainous and, you know, rocky and steep and hot terrain of Southern Greece, a man could outrun a horse.

Really?

Yes.

Huh.

Literally. How is that possible?

Because a horse would just get too tired, too big?

Yep. Yep. I could outrun a horse. I've done a 100-mile foot race in.

Vermont against a horse, and I beat the horse.

Because of course, it just got tired and stopped. The horse, you know, they can't dissipate heat. There's a lot of theories about it. They can't dissipate heat because they have fur in our hair where we breathe and we can sweat, and we get that evaporative cooling where they don't have that. So that's one reason. Yeah. I mean, obviously a horse can out sprint us, but in the long run a man can outrun a horse.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So the man in Greece would run and what was the process?

They were like literally the faster internet. So they could dispatch these heralds all around to like gather intelligence, disseminate information. So if they got invaded by like the Persians invaded at Marathon, you know, in 490 BC, instead of the Persian cavalry being able to get out there quicker, they sent this Greek runner, Pheidippides, that outran these horses and got to Sparta. And if you've seen 300, you know the... So he tried to recruit the Spartans to come help the Athenians, and he ran 153 miles. And, you know, Herodotus says he arrived the day after setting up, which is like sub 36 hours. And I thought, how could a guy do this 2,500 years ago? You know, he didn't have hokos. -No shoes? -Yeah, he had hokos. Yeah, he was eating, you know, figs and he was foraging all along. He didn't have a headlamp at night. I mean, how did he navigate? It was just amazing to learn about the, you know, the history of endurance.

-Wow. -What would you say is the thing you think about the most when you go out on your runs today? What's, is there a reoccurring thought? that brings you joy? Is there a thought that makes you suffer? Is there anything you think about more consistently?

Well, I mean, I've come to the age where it's just gonna suck when you start out.

Just getting going.

And for anyone, just getting going. And anyone realizes that sometimes the biggest challenge is just to get out the front door.

Put the shoes on and start going.

Yeah, I've got the self-discipline now. I can get out the front door, but I just know that Okay, this first mile is going to hurt like it never used to. It used to be springy on the first mile. Now you're going to have to warm up. Really?

You're going to stretch?

I've never warmed up. I've never stretched. I've never done foam rollers. I haven't done anything. And so now there's just kind of that expectation. It's going to hurt a little bit when you start out. But the joy is still there. I still feel the magic of running. And it's that high. It's like a drug, but it's a good drug, right? There's no repercussions, right? I mean, there's no withdrawal symptoms. I mean, kind of withdrawal symptoms, you just miss it. But it's not like, you know, an actual drug where you're going to the actual withdrawal. So I don't see any downside to running, you know?

What about the, there's some science coming out there saying that running that far on your body older in life is going to hurt yourself. It's going to make, you know, give yourself more pain or hurt the joints or the knees, the hips, these things, which could be harder to extend your life. Have you heard any of this information out there or seen this science?

No, I mean, I've heard of, you know, telomeres extending when you are an endurance athlete.

Really? Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

It's one of the best ways to preserve your telomeres is through endurance, aerobic exercise.

What about joint functionality? I don't subscribe.

Some people say you only have so many foot strikes in your life and then your joints are gone, but I don't subscribe to that at all. I mean, I know that's not true. So, I think that when you go to the LA Marathon, for instance, if you stood at that finish line long enough, you'd see 70, 80 year olds coming through the finish line.

That's amazing.

And compared to their peers, their joints are, you know, they have less osteoarthritis, they have less rheumatoid arthritis, they're in much better shape. So I think we're made to move, made to run.

Are you doing any lifting as well or any other type of exercise or mostly running?

No, I mean my whole day is exercise, literally. I mean I view my life through the lens of being the best animal I can be and that involves my my cross training, my sleep, obviously my interpersonal relationships, which I think are really important. I think that a lot of athletes overlook that if you have turbulent interpersonal relationships, it impacts negatively impacts your performance. So I try to optimize all of these things. And one thing I've learned is that I do not sit down. When I'm at home, I mean, I had to sit down here because I had to get a flight and fly down here. during the normal course of a day, when I get out of bed, I don't sit until I get back into bed.

Even for meals?

Nothing. Yeah, my whole house and my home office is all engineered for standing. So all my writing is done standing. And then I have this hit training routine I do, which mainly body weight, with pull-ups, push-ups, sit-ups, chair dips, and squats. And burpees, which-- oh, I know. So I do those, I probably do five or six, sometimes seven sets of that throughout the day. It's about a 12 to 13 minute hit routine. And it's, you know, the pull-up bar is right outside my house. So I like to exercise outside. So I go do body weight exercise mostly. So not so much weights. Does that answer your question?

Yeah. And then how much are you running a day? Just depends on the day.

It depends on the day. Yeah. Yeah, it depends if I have a training block, if something's coming up. But, you know, a lot of times I'm racing so much that I'm kind of, I'm racing and then I'm recovering and then I'm kind of tapering for the next race and I'm racing. So it's always, sometimes it's like every weekend I'm running a race.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Did you always know how important sleep was for performance and recovery in your 30s? Or was that something more you've learned in the last 10 plus years?

Very much the latter.

Right.

So you surprised yourself? I was kind of known as the guy who like sleeps three to four hours a night.

Wow.

And I would do that for months on end. And sometimes I feel tired and I just think that's because you haven't exercised enough. So yeah, I really- Push through it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, push through the sleep by exercising.

Oh my gosh. What do you think that did to your body? for those years?

I think I could have, you know, hindsight's 2020, right? I mean, I think I could have done a lot of things differently that I would have been healthier. I mean, I used to think that when I first started ultra-marathoning that just any sort of calorie was a calorie.

Pizza, ice cream, cookies, didn't matter.

Yeah, I mean, I've never lived down the story of ordering a pizza. You know, I was doing this 12-person, 200-mile relay race. But you ran it by yourself. But I don't have 11 friends, so yeah, so it stuck out in the middle of the night. on this backcountry route, and there was no food, there was nothing around, but I had a Motorola flip phone. Remember those? Oh, you don't remember those? Yeah, yeah, of course not, I remember. And a credit card, and I ordered a pizza and had the guy deliver it to me.

You said, hey, I'm running on this highway, drop it off here in 30 minutes.

I told him where I should be, and he's like, what house are you in? I'm like, I'm not, I'm running. He's like, well, how will I find you? I'm like, I'm the only guy, it's.

11 o'clock at night, with a headlamp running on the side of the road.

This back country road. So, wow.

So he delivered it, the whole pizza, did you eat the whole thing? And did you run and eat it, or were you walking?

No, I mean, I told him, don't slice it and make it with a really thin crust. So you could eat it a lot easier. Yeah, and I said also Hawaiian style. I know it's kind of controversial these days with pineapple on my pizza, but I said, I thought pepperoni would be too spicy. So I ordered Hawaiian style and I.

Just rolled it into this big Italian like burrito. That's okay. He just ate it so good.

It cut all over me, but it was so good. Yeah, I ate a whole pizza. But I mean, people say, how do you eat a pizza and run? I was running for 45 hours. When was the last time you ran for 45 hours?

There's only so many gel packs you can eat. Yeah, before your stomach gets, you need that thing. 45 hours you ran. What's the longest you ran non-stop? I mean, without stopping to go to.

The bathroom, but not stopping. well, I mean, in once, like, I've run across America, so I've run 20 or 3200 miles, but I've run. Not sleeping, I should say.

350 miles.

350 miles without sleeping. Yeah. In 81 hours. 81 hours.

80 hours and 44 minutes. Yeah.

350 miles. Yeah.

How far is that? That's like, LA. That's like LA to San Francisco. What is that?

It's pretty. It's pretty close. It's like Ventura to San Francisco.

Wow. Yeah. That's incredible.

Yeah. It was interesting because the second night, what is that?

Three, four days?

It was three nights without sleep.

Three nights without sleep. How does your body keep going after the first night?

I can run through one night without sleep, no problem. I can run through two nights, no problem. The third night got a little dicey. Yeah.

Getting loopy probably at that point, right?

Well, I woke up one time in the middle of the road. I'm like, Why am I running down the middle of the road? Like I know better than to do this. So I kind of meandered over the shoulder and then it happened again. I'm running down the middle of the road. I'm like oh, you weren't even you fell asleep running. I was asleep.

I willed myself to keep going. Yeah.

So your eyes kind of fell asleep while you're just jogging? While I'm jogging. And you weren't even aware where you were? No. Remember cramming for like a final? Yeah. You know, you did the head bob?

It was one of those things.

I'm just running and and I wake up going, Jesus, I'm running.

How do you train your mind to push through three nights of no sleep and 350 miles consistently? How do you go to a place in your mind that says, I'm gonna keep going even though this seems crazy?

Yeah. I mean, people say, what do you think about? And I don't. I mean, thinking is what gets you in trouble because you start thinking, you start doing the math, you start thinking this is. insanely impossible. Like this will never work. So you don't think. You just execute by taking your next.

Step and you do that for 80 hours. How do you not think for 80 hours though? Do you look and see the landscape? Are you thinking about relationships in your life or none of that comes into place? You're just thinking next step, next step for 80 hours. ours.

Early on, you think about all the things you just mentioned. You know, you look at the landscape, you watch the beautiful sunset, the moonrise, you see all these things. But as you progress, you start seeing less and less. You just start being a presence. I mean, you literally lose your ego. You lose every sense of being. You're just something moving along down the road. The third morning that I, you know, after sleep running, it was dawn and the sun's coming up. I'm still a little groggy, as you can imagine. and I see like a praying mantis down below my feet. I'm looking down at this stick figure, this bug, like an army man kind of moving along. I'm like, what the heck is that? And it dawned on me, that's me. Like I think I had an out-of-body experience. It was as though I was in a helicopter or like a hot air balloon looking down on this thing and I'm like, that's me.

So you'd actually see a praying mantis.

Yeah, I'm looking, there was no praying mantis. It was like, this figure between my feet. It was a hallucination. And then when I tuned in on that image, it's like, oh, that's me down there.

You were truly out of body experience.

Yeah, I think so.

Wow.

Yeah.

What is the most spiritual experience you had while running?

You know, this gets a little sentimental, but I had a kid sister who was like my best friend, Perry, and she was killed in a car accident on her 18th birthday. And I was a couple years older. And I still, I talk to her a lot. It's funny, that's the only time Like I really seem like I'm connecting with her. Really? Yeah, vividly, vividly. Your kid's sister? Yeah. And this is, you know, I mean, I was 21, so I'm not, I said I'm closer to 60 than 50 now, so this is many, many decades ago.

And we still- you- have a conversation with her?

We have a conversation, yeah. What do you talk about? All kinds of things. We talk about, she knew my wife Julie, 'cause Julie was my high school sweetheart. She asked how Julie's doing. she said, are you worried about mom and dad? They're getting up because my parents are still around. This is your younger sister.

My younger sister.

Oh, wow. She died when she was 18.

She was 18.

I was 21.

Oh, wow. Yeah.

So you have these conversations with her? I have these conversations, yeah.

That's beautiful. Would you say every week you have these conversations or.

No, no, this during longer runs, and it's usually when I'm, like I said, I was just in Patagonia running a 100 mile race. and you know, it's South America and it's very different than running like in the San Gabriel Mountains or anywhere around here. And we had a lot of conversations. You know, like, wow, look at this. I mean, it's so different here. I saw some, I thought they were llamas, they're alpacas. And I said, you know, these things are so trippy looking. Yeah, yeah.

What is the biggest lesson she's taught you in these conversations?

To do what you love. It always comes back to you. She's so proud of me. You actually did what you love and you're still doing it. Yeah, because she was very whimsical. And I thought she was impractical. I'm like, come on, you can't conduct your life like this. But she was so smart, but she never studied. And she was so wise. But yeah, she was like a force and I didn't know how she got through a day. She was just always like looking at flowers and I'm like, her mind is somewhere else. And she so appreciated beauty. She would look at things and say, wow, isn't that beautiful? And I was like, yeah, it's a tree. Come on, let's go. Yeah.

Wow, was it just you and her or did you have other siblings?

I have a brother as well. Yeah. Yeah, a younger brother, a year younger. But we weren't as tight. Like he's a different kind of guy than me.

Sure. So decades later you still have these conversations. That's pretty interesting. Would you feel like you're more connected to her spirit now than when she was alive?

You know, I mean, I do. And whether this is a construct in my own mind, you know, or whether I'm actually connecting with someone, but I've kept her alive, you know, and she's always, she hasn't aged, which is so funny. I was always talking to this 18-year-old. She's like Socrates and she's 18 years old and it's the same figure. Yeah. Yeah.

That's pretty interesting. I like that. I mean, my, you know, something's coming up for me because my father passed in February this year and I feel like I'm more connected to him now than when he was alive. And I have conversations with him when I speak to him. But I never had anyone close to me pass away until recently. And so it's been interesting to have that experience and see the best of him consistently, you know, in that spiritual space. So that's kind of interesting. Does she just come to you? Is it more she's running alongside you or she just kind of in your thought while you're running? Now we have actual conversations and it's.

Not- She's with you. She's like, yeah. She's with me. And I don't know why it happens. Like I don't, I kind of, because I'm like thinking to myself, am I crazy? Like am I losing my mind? Am I ready for the insane asylum? Like where's the finish line here? But I don't, she just pops in. Like it's not, I'm trying to think, is there some kernel that I'm planting that's like bringing this on, but it doesn't, it just randomly happens at times when you would otherwise not think it. You know, it just, yeah. I don't know why it happens, yeah.

That's pretty cool. Usually on the longer runs.

It usually longer runs. And it's always in the wilderness, you know, in the mountains.

You prepare for a, a big race, a big Ultra, 100 plus miles, even though that might seem like a, a 5K to you now, 100 miler. But when you're preparing for something 100 plus or a day long plus, how does your mind prepare? You know, the week before, the day before, right before the, the start of it, where do you go mentally? Or is at this point you're just so automatic, you just I know what to eat, I know how to train, I know how to sleep, I just.

Show up and I just do it. No, I still think about it quite a bit. Yeah, and I try to prepare.

A game plan, a strategy.

Yeah, a game plan. You know, you plan for the best, but I mean, you hope for the best, but you plan for the worst. So I'm always, worst case scenario, do you have a backup? Like this run in Patagonia, this is.

Crazy, but I took three flashlights, three headlamps.

'Cause if one goes down, you're screwed. Yeah, you're screwed. All three of them, like two of them didn't turn on. No way. I couldn't believe it. I'm always like, have a backup plan for your backup plan. Okay, here's my backup. No worries, I got another flashlight. Did not work. Yeah, and then-- All three? All three of them.

Didn't work.

Did not work.

Did you check the batteries beforehand and.

Make sure-- I did everything. I mean, I did every, I charged, like two of them, one was, two of them were with batteries, and the other was you charged it. So I charged, Charge it in the hotel all night so it was fully charged. I knew to do that. None of them worked. Wow.

Yeah. So what did you do? When everything goes wrong, when you have a backup plan and that goes wrong, how do you keep going? I made, with two guys who found.

Me out there, who didn't, my Spanish is horrible. These guys didn't speak any English. I did, you know, hand signaling and they said, sure, and they kind of escorted me. So we all ran together with the power of their headlamp behind me. You know, they knew how to do it. And I'm talking about 10 miles through single track in Patagonia in the middle of the night. So it was really skilled because I wanted to go a little bit faster than they were going, but it's like I'm not-- But you had to go slower with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm so grateful. Anyway, they got me to the next aid station and they went and started talking to some people. And there was a guy there, another aid station volunteer who was a mountaineer, and he had a headlamp. And he just gave me his, I mean, these are people out in, you know, these are not rich people. I mean, I don't know how long it took this guy to work to buy this headlamp. So I tried to give him my headlamps. Like here, these are good, you just, he wouldn't have it. He would not, and I just, at that point I said, you know what? He's giving to me, accept it. And he gave me his headlamp and the thing lasted through two nights.

Wow.

Yeah, it lasted, and I'm just, Three batteries were in there. It lasted through two nights.

And all three of yours didn't work.

All three of mine-- Go figure that. So anyway, that's a long-winded answer to your question. I do plan, but, you know, when I'm at the starting line, I used to get very nervous.

Really?

And now, yeah, I mean, even at a marathon, I get nervous. But now I just have the same commitment that, you know, I'm gonna be the best that I can be today. I'm going to lay it all out. I'm not going to leave anything on the course. I'm going to be the best dean and I'm going to give it my all. And even if I fail, I'm going to not fail because I'm going to have given it everything I've got. There's going to be no compromising.

But you're one of the most incredible runners in the world. How do you still get nervous?

I think it's a good thing. I never take it for granted. Yeah.

Wow. that's incredible man. So you're still nervous. How do you calm your nerves then.

Before a big race? I just, again, it's just coming back to the fact that I can't, there's so many things you can't control. It's very, you know, it's maybe stoic, but you know, you can't control the weather, you can't control the competition, you can control yourself. So my commitment is just, Dean, you're gonna give it your all today. You know, whatever happens, you might win, you might fail, but you're not gonna walk away without giving it your all. You know, they're gonna carry you out of here on a stretcher.

Wow.

You're gonna fight to the very end.

Is that what it takes for you to stop being like carried out on a stretcher?

It's happened before.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's my fight, you know? I mean, I'm not a UFC fighter and, you know, I see what those guys do. I couldn't do that, but I will run until it beats me or I beat it.

Have you ever broken any bones in your legs, your feet?

Just a rib? Just a rib? Running? Yeah. Well, I mean, I had a little skirmish with a tree root. I got my stocking foot stuck under one and went over the handlebars and landed on a rock in Colorado. Okay. And it just broke one of my ribs.

But have you ever fractured your feet or toes or just like swollen?

You know, it's funny, I've never had a running related injury of any sort. Yeah.

You get on a bicycle though, you get hurt, huh?

Yeah, I tried to drive a car, I'd get hurt. I don't know, I sold my car like 10 years ago. Yeah.

You just run everywhere.

I run everywhere.

Grocery store, you run to the grocery store.

I have different size packs, depending on what I'm gonna do, like what kind of errand I'm gonna run. Yeah.

But you don't run in a car, you actually run the errand.

I run the errand.

You run the errand? Yeah, yeah.

And I mean, I used to think, People would think I was weird. Like if I have a meeting in San Francisco, I live about an hour and a half north in a place called Marin County. So I leave an hour and a half early and I just use a.

Bathroom, kind of sponge off.

An hour and a half run north, you mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I run into San Francisco, have a meeting, and I just think people think it's weird that I'm walking in kind of sweaty with a running pack. And they're like, you ran here?

No, I'm like, Marin County? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I run home.

That's amazing.

So no car. Do you take a bike anywhere or no?

No, I mean I have this thing called an elliptigo, which is like a standing, it's like a standing bike elliptigo, like it's kind of weird name.

Yeah, it's like a standing bike.

It moves, but the handlebars are like bike handlebars. It's more like a running motion. Yes, I know this, I've seen this. Yeah, they're kind of weird. They look like a big praying mantis.

But I ride one of them. It's more like a running motion. It's a good cross training.

So you do that?

And you run and you walk. And you'll take a plane. And a taxi every now and then.

Well, I mean, I was sponsored by Volkswagen. And it came time to renew our agreement. And I'm like, you know, guys, I don't feel good about this. Like, why? You're killing it. And I'm like, look at the car. It's got 2,000 miles. I've had it for a year. It's got 2,000 miles. And mostly I was just driving to.

The airport and back.

Sure. And I'm like, I don't feel very good about this. I can't promote a car if I don't drive. And I thought, you know, we all talk about what we can do for the environment. Like, here's something tangible I can actually do, is I'm not going to drive. And people say, well, isn't it, I could never do this, it'd be so inconvenient. Yeah, it's very inconvenient. Yeah, but I've adjusted my lifestyle to make it that way.

Right.

Yeah.

When you think about failure, how do you overcome the thought around failing at anything you're doing.

I think again, it's that commitment that just you, I'm going to give it my all and I'm going to go out fighting even if I fail. Yeah.

And do you ever doubt yourself?

All the time.

Really?

Yeah, all the time.

How do you overcome that self-doubt?

Drive, I think. Yeah.

When you doubt yourself, is it, well, I'm just so driven to make this happen or see what if I can make this dream come true that it's more powerful than the self-doubt where it doesn't hold you back or what does that do?

It motivates me. I mean, I've had some success in my life, but I grovel every day. Like every morning I get up like how the hell am I going to make a living today?

Really?

Yeah, how am I going to have an impact? Like I'm nothing. Like you get out there and do something. Make something of yourself. Yeah, I don't know why you feel that way.

But you've had so many massive successes. and broken so many records and impacted so many lives, why do you feel that at this age?

Maybe it's imposter syndrome. I don't know. I've analyzed it a bit. I think that success is simple as being all you can be. If you really believe you're all you can be, then you're successful. And maybe I think that I could be more, that I'm letting myself down.

What more could you be? Oh, I've got dreams.

I just finished a movie script. I mean, this sounds so crazy. Really? Yeah, it's about Socrates.

That's cool.

Yeah, so it's a modern telling of Socrates. So you just wrote a movie script? Yeah, but it is based on Socrates' life. So it's a retelling. It's based on like literally Herodotus.

So it's based on historic record. Interesting. But more from modern day or back then?

That'S the irony in the thing. When you read it, it's hard to tell because they're talking about democracy failing and how it can be better. And you read about, we need to free the slaves, women need equal rights. They were talking about this 2,500 years ago. And so you read it and you're like, hold it, these are the same things we're discussing today. Literally, yeah, it's the same topics, yeah.

Which philosopher and ancient philosopher are you most inspired by? Is it Socrates?

Socrates, or there was a guy named Aeschylus who fought in the Battle of Marathon.

Okay, Aeschylus.

Aeschylus, yeah.

What's his story?

He was a playwright. He was a Tragian, they call him, right in tragic plays. And he just has a lot of great quotes, like men seek God and seeking find him. So it's all about this, that you find God when you seek. So, I mean, Aeschylus is, yeah, with.

An A. Aeschylus with an A. Aeschylus with an A. Okay, I'll check him out. That's interesting. What's the greatest lessons that Socrates or Aeschylus has taught you?

You know, Socrates, I mean, I could go on and on about Socrates, but you know, He said the only thing I know is that I know nothing.

At all.

Which he just had an open mind like that. He said it's better to suffer wrong than do wrong. He did no wrong. There's no such thing as revenge.

It's better to suffer wrong than to do wrong. What does that mean for you?

That means that it's a theory of revenge. I mean, Greeks were so conflicted because here you have Odysseus and Troy and Achilles trying to get revenge on the Trojans. And then Socrates saying, no, you do no wrong, no matter what. It's an absolute. Like you just never do wrong. And I think if you conduct your life that way, you know, he said there's no pillow so soft as a clear conscience. And I think there's a lot to that.

Yeah, 'cause revenge might feel good in the moment, but then you're doing something wrong. You're trying to right a wrong through a wrong.

Through a wrong. Yeah. Sound like a Greek philosopher.

Just not gonna feel good at the end of the day.

Yeah, exactly.

You're thinking about what you did for Albert.

Exactly. And he said, Never tear down others, focus all your energy on bettering yourself. And I think we all have a tendency to get jealous. He had no jealousy. I mean, when you read about Socrates, he didn't know the feeling of jealousy. You really start to believe that. He didn't have envy. That's like a prison, right? If you feel envy, It's a horrible feeling. So if you don't have those feelings, you just feel better throughout the course of the day. So I don't envy anymore and I celebrate other people. Even my competitors, I celebrate their success. It feels so much better than being envious.

Than being angry or upset.

Yeah, exactly.

What was the biggest challenge for you to overcome in the last three decades on this journey? Whether it was jealousy or doubting yourself.

Or envy or It's the same thing everyone has to overcome, it's themselves, right? It's your own limitations that are self contrived. We all live in a prison with the door wide open, you know?

What has been your biggest limit that you've overcome?

I'm incredibly, incredibly nervous right now. I am an introvert, I could be a monk and I'd be very happy.

Really? You mean in this moment you're nervous?

Fuck, dude.

Why? You're Dean Karnazes, man. You're the legend.

Yeah, people say that to me all the time. They have no idea how much anxiety I have. Yeah, no, I just, I mean, I'm talking to someone that's just so, like you're so far beyond me. I can't even comprehend how you build a business like you've done. I can't manage my own life, let alone manage other people.

You can manage your running. You can manage your health and fitness, which most people don't, you know, what is it, a third of the US is now obese. It's like you can manage so much more than a lot of people struggle with.

Yeah, I guess that's a way to look at it.

It doesn't really- Most people can't complete anything. You complete something every day that is more people that people do in their entire lives.

Maybe because some of it comes kind of easy. I don't understand how, but I get so, I mean I give corporate keynotes, kind of like you do. You should see me in the green room. Oh, dude. Yeah, I mean I'm so nervous. Where do you think those- you- don't get nervous? Like you're not nervous right now?

I mean- I used to get nervous speaking a lot because I wasn't a good speaker. And then I studied for a year, I did Toastmasters where I went to a public speaking class every week for a year, got in front of a small group, maybe 20 people, where they gave you feedback. But it was positive feedback and you practiced your speaking. But every time I did that, I was terrified. even for a group that was like supposed to support you. It was still scary to put myself out there. Then for years, I would go and speak at events and I get nervous. I get nervous for years. And even when I started getting paid a lot more money, I still was really nervous. And it wasn't until maybe four years ago where I remember saying, I shouldn't be, why am I still nervous? You know, I've been doing this for about 10 years almost speaking. I was like, why am I still nervous? I don't understand. I should, I should be fine by now. I should be, I should not be this thing. And I called my friend and coach, Chris Lee at the time. This is probably an hour before the speech. And I go, I don't know why I'm still so nervous before this. Like, I'm getting paid great money, just like you're getting paid. People come, do they want to see me now when no one knew who I was before? And I said, why is it? Can you help me? And he said, he gave me a tool, which was, it's been a great gift. He was like, you're making it about you and not about the audience. you're so worried about what people think about you, you're so worried and consumed about saying the right joke or making sure you say all the right lines or telling the stories in the right way, as opposed to knowing you're not going to be perfect, accepting that you're going to forget some stuff and focusing all your energy on how can you serve the people in the room. And I just started practicing that saying, you know what? I know I'm not going to be perfect today. This is not, you know, I'm gonna give them my all, but I'm here to serve. And if only one person is paying attention, I'm gonna give my energy to that one person and not worry about other people talking or people on their phone or whatever I'm insecure about, but focused on the people that I can impact the most. So I just started thinking about who are the one, two or three people in this room that need to hear this message and how can I speak to them? And by doing that, I let go of my nerves about worrying about everyone's thinking about me, trying to look good.

Mm-.

And that's been a helpful tool and strategy moving forward. I still get nervous sometimes when I'm doing interviews or speaking for sure, but that practice gets me back into a place of service as opposed to self. And my other friend, Rory Vaden said, it's hard to be nervous when your heart's on service. And so when I focus my heart on service, not I want to look good or, you know, I want people to praise me. You're going to look good and people will praise you when you focus on them, not on yourself. Yeah. So giving versus taking.

Exactly.

Or when you're just worried about how I look.

Yeah, you're self-conscious which is my whole.

Life, you know, was about worried about what people would think about me.

Yeah.

And I'm, we're human beings, so I think at some point we're probably still gonna, you know, want to make sure people like us, but, yeah. that practice has allowed me to let go of the feeling of the stress a little bit easier.

I'll think about that next time I'm on a stage, yeah.

And it's doing exactly what you do when you run. You say you take the pain from your legs and you run from your heart, not from your body.

Yeah.

And so when you're on stage, you're thinking from something else other than your heart. And when you put it back in your heart, just like you're running, I bet it'll perform a lot a lot different way.

I'm learning.

My thoughts. My thoughts.

Good thoughts, yeah. Did you always run from your heart.

Or did it take a period of time for you to understand how to run from your heart? I think when my coach said it.

It clicked immediately because I was always running from my watch. I mean, a lot of people are. I mean, especially nowadays, I mean, we quantify everything. I mean, you talk to a lot of runners. -Yeah, every, like, I can, -How many.

Calories are you in right now? How much water are you drinking?

How much of this? How much REM did you get last night? what's your epoch? You can go on and on. But I think if you want to learn to love running, you need to learn to love running by itself. Running is not about, oh, I'm going to listen to music to divert the pain. I'm going to see if I can set my personal record or whatever. Running is worthwhile in itself as a form of play. And if you can make running that, then you get the joy. I started viewing running as a form of play. It was just, you know, big boy play.

Yeah, that's cool. Has there ever been a time where you're like, I don't think this running thing is for me anymore?

No, it really hasn't. I always love to run. I just love it. Yeah. I mean, I've thought a lot of times, like, dude, you can't take it any further. Like, get a job. Come on. You're still kind of an employee. You got an MBA somewhere. You had some business experience, you know, send out some resumes, get on LinkedIn, get a job. Really?

You think that way sometimes? I'm hustling every day.

I mean, if you look at the, I put a list of sponsors, and it's like a hundred sponsors long. I mean, you know, sponsors come and go. That's what you've had. That I've had.

So I'm prospecting, you know, for six.

Months, maybe a quarter. Yeah, there's a marketing campaign, hey, let's get Dean. A year goes by, okay, you know, see you later. So, you know, I talk a lot about the hustle that's involved in making a living doing what I'm doing.

Yeah, and you live in an expensive city, in an expensive state, so you gotta, you know, pay your bills.

Yeah, and people say, you know, why don't you become like you, you know, grow an empire. I'm like, I'm not a good boss. I couldn't do it. You're obviously a great boss. I'm not. I can't.

I'm not that good of a boss. That's my team. Matt manages and organizes the team. while I'm doing the interviews mostly, but he's, he's the one who's a great leader. I just try to lead with my vision and let him, you know, manage the team. But it's hard to do it on your own. I don't think I'd be able to do both. I think it's hard to excel as a great runner or to do your thing and then also build a team at the same time. I think it's very challenging. And I knew my strengths going into this. If I didn't do any interviews or any content creation or write any books, then I could manage a team well because I would have my time and attention and develop skills towards doing that. But when I'm doing this all day long, I can't also be checking in with my team as much as I would like to. Yeah, obviously I do in certain days, but you're a runner, you know, that's what you do, and that's what you're great at. So it's having someone support you to help build the thing you want to build, which I'm sure you have a manager or someone on your team to help.

I've got a literary agent. I mean, I think CAA is around here somewhere. Yeah, they're right across the street. Okay, I used to work with CAA, so I've had managers, but you know, you fall through the cracks in an agency like that. 'Cause, you know, I'm an endurance sports athlete. I mean, they know what to do with football players and, you know, baseball players, basketball players, those guys are, you know, the infrastructure is in place where, you know, you play high school ball and you're good, you get a scholarship. Now you go right to the pros from high school. But it's that network is there. You got to be really, really good, but it's all kind of done for you if you can play at that level.

Yeah, of course.

If you run at the level I'm running at, you still got to make a go of it on your own, right? You got to create that whole infrastructure because it's not out there.

How are the ways that you generate revenue as a runner then? Is it through books? Is it through sponsorships, speaking deals, consulting?

What are the main revenue streams? You just named most of them. Yeah. And also, I do some angel investing with a little bit of money I've been able to save because I get, I mean, on my doorstep, I get sent so much stuff. A lot of it is garbage, I'll be honest, but some of it are like, wow, this is pretty innovative. I think this is something I want to look into further. Instead of trying to take money from a company that's just starting up, I take a little bit of equity and try to help promote the company and build the company.

-That'S cool. -Yeah. -Do you have... Are you able to save money and invest as well? Or do you feel like you're kind of running year by year financially?

-I'Ve got assets. I've got some great assets. And every night, I'm lying in bed going, How am I going to make a dollar tomorrow? -Really? -I mean, I've got retirement fund. Yeah. I mean, I could literally close down shop and survive. -Survive the rest of my life. pretty comfortably. But I just, every night I have this money anxiety where you better get up and hustle tomorrow, man, because you're going to end up homeless if you don't.

-Where do you think that anxiety comes from around money?

-I think maybe my parents, you know, we never had money. My mom was a public school teacher. My dad's a field naturalist.

-Yeah, you're not making money doing that.

-No, no. And I thought I don't want to, like, I don't want to, I just saw the compromises they made. I'm like, I don't want to make those sort of life compromises. I want my family to be comfortable. I mean, at the end of the day, I'm most proud that I put two kids through college. I got them through and I put my wife through dental school. I paid for her bills when we got married young and she wanted to be a dentist.

That's cool.

Yeah, that makes me the most proud. I tell people, I've made a couple hundred million dollars, I've lost a couple hundred million dollars, and I've raised a couple hundred million dollars for charity.

Wow.

And the third makes me feel the best.

Sure.

You know?

Making a couple hundred million dollars.

Not 100 million. I wish 100 million.

A couple million dollars. I was like, damn, couple hundred million dollars. You still have anxiety? Wow.

I think that would solve the problem. A couple hundred million.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just a couple million.

Yeah. What is the biggest lesson your wife taught you about life? Because to have an extreme passion, drive, you're not a normal human being. you travel a lot, you're gone a lot. Is it about the person you choose to be able to support and accept you for this lifestyle? Because that's not where you were in the first probably 10 years of marriage, I'm assuming, right? But it's like, yeah, then you change as a person and said, I'm gonna go on this crazy adventure.

Yeah.

And be gone for three days at a time running and exhausted. You know, how supportive has she been?

Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. She, you know, she was my first love. Literally my high school, we met, this sounds so cliche because we were in Orange County, we met in junior lifeguards. And I just knew at that point, like I want to spend my life with this girl. And so at 14 we became a thing and you know, how many years later is that, you know, over 45 years later we're still together and people change, as you know. I think the biggest quality that Julie possesses is she's fiercely independent. So she doesn't mind when I'm gone because I'm gone a lot. And I know for a lot of people that would not work. So she's very independent. We have a really great relationship. I mean, it's not the quantity of time you spend with someone, it's the quality. I think if you spend too much time with someone, that's a little smothering actually for everyone. I'm just made to wander. I mean, I've tried to make a life because, I mean, we live in Western culture and I've tried to do good by my family because they might not want to be such a nomad like me, but, you know, if I could, I would just cut the cord and just wander the rest of my life.

Really?

Yeah.

You'd have no house, you would just, yeah.

No, I wouldn't, yeah. I wouldn't have any things either. Like, I don't have, yeah, I mean, Yeah.

What's the, the greatest lessons around marriage, of the personality type that you are, what are the greatest lessons that you've learned over the last 40 plus years being married that you could share with this unique lifestyle, which is not like you have a nine to five and you're going someplace and you come home and you're there on the weekends, you're constantly pursuing your dream. What have you learned? I think on how to make it work, too. It's like how do you stay together in a happy place for that long?

I think that mutual respect is really important that you respect each other. And I also think that there has to be underlying love. How do you define love? There's got to be that authentic love and that'll get you through anything. If you don't have that underlying love, then things are going to come unraveled. And love is authentic and it's very, you can spot hypocrisy. If someone says they love you and those are hollow words unless you really feel loved. So I think if you have that underlying love, it doesn't matter how you structure the relationship.

What's been the hardest thing to overcome in the marriage for 40 plus years?

People say, don't you wish your wife ran with you? And sometimes I do. Sometimes it'd be really nice to have a partner that, hey, let's go running. We live in a beautiful place. Let's go run up in the hills for a while. But that's just not who she is. That's been, at times, that'd be kind of cool. But at other times, I've so loved being out there by myself. I'm very comfortable running in nature for eight or ten hours.

Alone.

Alone. Yeah, I really enjoy it. Yeah. And there's not a lot of people that are like that, right? I think that we came from nature, but we're so removed from it. And when was the last time you just went and walked on a trail for eight hours?

Eight hours? Probably never. But I mean, I try to go for an hour and a half on a trail and walk with my girlfriend. Yeah. Every month.

You're unusual. I mean, East from here.

I know.

Head across America and see how many people have an actual relationship with nature. They don't. I mean, they live in a house, they get in a car. I saw statistics, something like most people spend 95% of their time indoors. Their lives, 95%.

They're disconnected from nature.

Completely, yeah. And I mean, that's so fundamental to being human.

Tell me about goal setting. How do you set and accomplish goals from small goals to impossible goals? What's your process around that?

What would be the best adventure ever? You know, like when I ran 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days, I just thought, I want my kids to see the whole U.S. I'd love to be in every state. I haven't seen the whole U.S. So that'd be really cool. Put everyone in a van and just let's set a course and just go run 50 miles and check out the whole country. So, you know, I'm working with a buddy of mine, Charlie Engle, who-- great interview if you want to bring a guy on. He's got an interesting story, Charlie, including spending some time in a federal penitentiary. But we're planning on running from the lowest point on Earth to the highest point on Earth next year.

So you probably know where the highest.

Point on Earth is. On Earth. You're talking about Everest?

Yeah. Holy.

So actual Everesting, not just- so you're gonna climb on it?

Yeah, yeah, not just going 17 times like I did.

Ski resorts aren't getting any smaller.

So you're gonna go from the lowest.

Point- Where's the lowest point?

The Dead Sea. Okay, where would that be?

What city- Like we started in Israel.

In Israel, yeah. In Tel Aviv or near Tel Aviv, I guess, right?

It's not far. Yeah. Yeah.

So you start there and then you'd go from there to Everest?

Yeah, we'd run from there to, obviously we went and run to the top of Everest. We'd get the base camp. Yeah, we'd change into mountaineering gear.

How far is that from Israel to Everest?

It's a two-pronged question because the most direct route is through Iraq and Iran, which getting through those countries is not going to be easy.

No.

And then the least direct route is going up through the stands, you know, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan. So that's more like a 4, 500 mile route versus about a 2300 mile route.

2300 miles sounds a lot better than 4500.

Yeah, but running through Iraq, you need.

Like, you would need like, military support or some type of escort, I'm assuming, right, in a van to-- well, part.

Of the beauty of running is it unites people. I mean, there's so many things in this world that divide us, right, be it the color of our skin, the god we worship, our socioeconomic level. But running is a great unifier, 'cause it's something-- it's a commonality. All humans share. So I think we have to go through Iraq and Iran. That's why I keep telling Charlie, we have to. that is our mission. Have you been there before?

No, I haven't.

But I've been on Facebook groups with running groups in Iran. They're like, you show up at our border, they're like, We'll have 100 people with you.

Guide you through it.

They're like, We'll take you through the whole country.

That's amazing.

You gotta do it. Tell the State Department, it's like, I don't care if you got 1000 people.

Running with you, you are not entering that country.

You should, I think you should.

That'd be powerful.

I think that makes sense.

That's the way to do it.

Yeah.

How long would that take? 2,500 miles to get to the base, I guess, of Everest.

Yeah.

How long do you think that would take?

We're thinking between three and four months.

Yeah.

And we're probably gonna start early. And if we get there, if we start putting some mileage in the bank, if you will, we'll start backing down our mileage. But you only have a certain window. I don't know if you know, to climb Everest. It's like a May, a couple months. May.

Yeah.

It's like six weeks. Yeah, that's changing now. So many people are doing it now.

It's like thousands are doing it every year or something, right? It's like lines of people trying to get up Everest. Yeah, yeah, it's a bit of a game.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I don't know, have you ever hiked up Mount Whitney here? Just locally? I haven't done that now. That's gotta be... That's a good one too. But I mean, it's again, it's like, when I used to go as a kid, you'd never see anyone. Now it's like congo lines. Really? Yeah.

Is there water you have to cross or no?

Well, that's another reason you should have Charlie on. He's like, well, instead of going all the way north, we'll just row across the Indian Ocean.

That'd be cool.

Rowing across the Indian Ocean. Oh, how long is that gonna take Charlie? It's like, that's just two weeks.

Oh my gosh.

Two weeks in a boat with you? Yeah, he's like, I've done some research. So that's the other option is to row across the Indian Ocean.

So when you set a goal, you think of what's the coolest thing or the craziest thing you can do? And then you start what? Planning it. And some of these things probably take six months to a year to plan. The crazier the idea, it takes more time. So you set up the idea, what would be crazier, cooler, fun for you? And then you start thinking about logistics. Is that right?

Logistics, yeah. I guess it's kind of team building, like, you know, who, what sponsors, like, would take an interest to this? Because, I mean, that's, it's going to fall flat with some sponsors. They have no business there. They're not Global. I mean, they don't care if their brand logos on our, on our shirts because they're not going to see much of a, you know, the needle's not going to move very far, but others they might, and they might think, wow, this is, we've got to get behind this. So then, you know, they usually, depending on the size of the, of the sponsor, you know, they have their agencies they work with and they would say, we're going to bring in our agency to kind of manage it or whatever. Yeah, start managing it and start doing some of the PR and yeah, it kind of builds on itself like that. What are you doing all these deals yourself pretty much?

Or do you have a manager helping you do the sponsorships or is it mostly you just calling companies and saying, hey, I'm going to do this run, will you sponsor it?

Yeah, it's kind of the latter.

Wow. Yeah.

I mean, I have obviously in doing this for a long time, I have contacts. so I kind of know who to go.

You got your top 10 guys that say, hey, I'm doing this thing. It might be up your alley.

Can you throw in a certain amount? Yeah, the thing is, runners, you probably kind of learned in this. They're very supportive of other runners. Of course. And runners are typically high achievers. So, you know, there's a lot of C-level runners. And when they hear about a project like this, they're like, oh, we got to support another runner. You know, this is great. Yes.

So that's a lot of how it works. That's pretty cool. Yeah. That's exciting, man. What do you do when you accomplish a big goal? Do you celebrate? Do you take time to actually acknowledge yourself for the hard work you've put in and the journey? Or are you right on to the next thing?

You know, what I've learned is that completing the journey is the sad part because it's the journey. It really is. I mean, life has lived along the journey. and when you reach the end, yeah, there's some champagne, some corks popping and this and that, but I'm always let down. Like, ah, man, I wish, because you love it so much while you're doing it, and then it's over. So, I'm always on to the next thing, because I just love the journey, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you think it's important to celebrate though, that for that day or that, you know, couple of days of like the actual hard work you've put in, Or do you think it's not worth the celebration?

I think the celebration is lived along the journey. Yeah.

Celebrating the process. The process, exactly.

That's a good way to put it. Yeah.

It's kind of like when I was doing the marathon, I literally wasn't really thinking about the finish. I was more just like, I'm gonna enjoy and smile every mile. That was my motto. I'm gonna smile every mile. When I feel in pain, smile. Yeah. You know, just be grateful to be out here. I never thought I'd do a marathon, so now I'm doing it. It's like, this is cool, you know? and for me, that's what worked in that process. And I think it works. It's. It's meaningful for a lot of people because when I was younger, I used to be driven to accomplish these big goals, specifically in sports. And when I would accomplish them, I'd be very let down and upset because I was so fixated on the end result that I was doing the journey with a lot of. Let's say drive from anger, not drive from joy. I was driven to accomplish out of like resentment or proving people wrong or frustration or not feeling good enough as opposed to this is something I truly love. And when I started to shift probably in my early 30, when I hit 30, I was like, I'm going to do everything because I love it, not because I'm trying to do it to prove people wrong. and that became a different feeling inside. It was kind of like coming from my heart as opposed to from my ego of why I was doing something. And it's been a lot more enjoyable day-to-day process as opposed to, I just need to accomplish this thing financially or this goal and then I'll be, you know, happier. But then how did you feel when.

You crossed the finish line in the marathon? I'm really curious. Do you remember what I felt in your mind?

I mean, I felt really.

Did you feel relieved? Like, I felt really.

I felt. I felt proud of myself, to be honest, because I had done 29.0.2.9, which was probably the hardest thing I'd ever done in terms of endurance. It was like 35 hours or whatever, right? Or can't remember how long, 35 hours.

You did it in Vermont, right?

In Vermont. And we slept maybe four hours or something. But for me, I'd never pushed myself endurance-wise that hard. I'd done three days in football camp for two weeks. You know, I've been in extreme pain. I've lifted hard. I've ran hard. sprinted hard. I was a decathlete, so I did two days of decathlon in college. You know, that was extremely demanding with just strength and power and speed and agility and all these things. But 35 hours of just walking straight up a mountain was exhausting for me mentally and emotionally and physically. And I just wasn't really prepared for it the first time. So when I accomplished, it was kind of the same feeling. Like when I completed that, I was like, I just didn't think my body could do something like that. So I was very proud of the completion. When I did the marathon, I was proud of the completion, but I was proud of the way I enjoyed the process of it too. I was like, man, I had fun. Yeah, I was in pain and yeah, this happened and yeah, I took it slow and I didn't go as fast as I wanted to. But I enjoyed being a part of the marathon experience. And so I was really proud, I was with Matt and he'd run a few before, so this is my first one. So I gave him a hug and I was just like, okay, I don't know if I want to do this again, but I'm proud of you. But then the next couple of days, literally the next few days, I was like, man, that was a lot of fun. I didn't look at it as this painful thing, even though it was challenging. I was just like, man, it was really fun. I'd never seen LA like that.

On foot.

Yeah, I never been to these neighborhoods. And I never drove this far, you know, in LA. Just kind of stayed in my pocket. And I was like, huh. And then a friend of ours who's on our team, I think he said he's done like five or six New York marathons. And he goes, it's so much fun because it's like a party every mile. You see all the burros. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, I've never done that. That could be a cool adventure. So I was like, all right, let's sign up for it.

And I never thought I would do that.

I never thought I would do more than one. I was like, one and done. One and done. And who knows if I'll do more or not. It's like, but...

There's a whole community of these sort of people, largely half-marathoners, and they're older, most of them are retired, but they travel all around the world to run these half-marathons just to see places. That's how they like... That's cool. It's a great form of tourism, isn't it? It's much better than getting a tour bus or something. And they say, yeah, I've never run down these streets in Italy before, and you know, it's a great way to do it. Yeah.

I think you expressing how you were kind of had this hollow feeling, this empty feeling, you were making money at 30, had the job and all these different things, but you didn't have the mission. There wasn't meaning.

There's no meaning inside of it.

Yeah. And with the meaning now, it's like creating these adventures, there's meaning behind it and there's a mission behind it. And you're not looking to complete it. You're looking to enjoy every moment of it. and I think that's really cool. And if people could take this away from this conversation with whatever they're doing, they could just have much more of a rich life in general, is what I'm hearing.

Yeah, I think so. And I think, you know, I'm thinking about the stories I tell in my most recent book, and people read it and they're just, they say that you just seem so happy doing what kind of seems miserable, like running 100 miles through the mountains. There's so much joy that's like bleeding from these pages. It's obvious. Even when you're struggling, it's like there's so much life in it.

Why is there so much joy in the struggle when you take on a challenge?

I think we're most alive when we're struggling and striving for something. I think that Dolph Gauges said that the soul origins of consciousness are suffering. I mean, life is about suffering mostly. I mean, you know, especially as you get older, you know, you deal a lot more with loss. Life gets tougher in a lot of ways. And it's just not-- no, everyone's fighting a battle, right? No matter who you meet, you walk out on the street and you ask someone, tell me about your problems. They're going to go on for a long-- it's going to be a long run, right? So I think everyone is struggling and I think that Running holds a mirror up to you. I mean, it says, Here's your struggle. Here you are. How are you going to deal with it? And you get to look at yourself and say, Here's what I do when things get tough. There's a saying that without war, we don't know if we're heroes or cowards, right? A marathon gives you that war. You learn, Hey, I'm a hero. I can suffer. I can get through this.

Where do you think your mental health would be if you didn't have these adventures and journeys and consistent kind of suffering through endurance?

Do you think you'd be as happy? No, I don't think I could even exist. Really? Yeah, I don't think I... Like if I was to get an injury, I've thought about this a bit. I've always taken for granted, I'm never gonna get an injury. I'm just gonna run as fast as I can, as hard as I can, push as hard as I can. I've never held back. And at some point the machine's gonna break, I imagine. I don't know what I'm gonna do. Like I cannot see myself as a non-runner. Like that dean doesn't exist. My whole identity is built around running is my freedom. I mean it's how I relate to the world. It's how I express myself. It's everything. So if that happens, I don't know.

If you could only run with one person who's not around anymore, you could choose any person from history, and you could take one marathon run with them. Who would that be?

Well, you're asking a Greek marathoner about who we'd run with. Pheidippides, the original marathoner who ran from the battlefield of Marathon to the Acropolis and proclaim Nikkei, Nikkei or Nike, Nike, which means victory, victory. We are victorious.

And then he died.

Wow. Yeah, I think every marathoner should know this story. So, and the company, the sportswear company, Nike, that's where they have the term.

It'S Nikkei, the victory.

Yeah. What would you ask him? How the hell he does it? I'd want to run with him.

You know, where would you run to and from? with him and what three questions would you ask?

I think we'd run from the Acropolis to Sparta, which is what he did, yes, 153 miles.

That's so cool. Yeah.

And you know the thing with runners is you don't need to talk.

You don't need to talk.

No, no, I mean you learn about each other through the movement of your body, right? I mean it's-- the breathing, the gait. I mean when you run with someone you get to know them. I mean I think we learn a lot about ourselves through the movement of our body. And I think that a lot of us have forgotten about that, because our bodies are not the temples maybe that they should be, or they once were. So our bodies don't, the feedback we get from our bodies is not necessarily a good one. But when you run with someone, you learn about their body. You see how they deal with obstacles. Do they spring over rocks, or do they step gingerly over rocks? I mean, you learn, do they aggressively charge the hills, or do they just kind of back off? So you learn about their, you know, their constitution.

Interesting.

Yeah.

If you could ask them three questions, what would it be? During that 150 miles? Why?

I always want to ask a runner why, like what's going on in your head? Like why do you do this? Is it your job? Because it was his job and you get paid to do this. Is there any love or passion there? You know, what does he eat? That's a common question that we get. And, Gosh, you know, I'm asking a guy who's 2,500 years older than us. So how do you relate to someone on that level? I can't ask him what brand of footwear he uses.

Is he wearing barefoot? Yeah, it's gotta be hard.

Barefoot.

That's crazy.

I would ask him like, where's his favorite place to take a vacation? Where's your favorite beach in Greece?

There you go. All the Greek islands, yeah. And if there's one person you haven't run with who's alive that you'd like to run with? It's a 5K or 150 miles, who would that be?

You know, I'd run with my dad. Yeah. He's 86. Great health. Yeah, I'd run with my dad and just say, you know, I love you. You're not gonna... I mean, he's at my house right now. I flew down here from, you know, Marin, He and my mom are staying with me for a week. We have a great relationship. We're all gonna go to Greece later this year, but I'm not sure he's gonna make it. Yeah, I mean, he's-- To Greece. Yeah, I'm not sure, and that's in October. So, I'm really glad I'm seeing him now.

That's good.

You know, and you said something during our interview that, like, touched me in a way that you don't even realize that you lost your dad. I'm not ready for that yet.

Really?

I'm not ready for that yet. Yeah, I don't know how, yeah.

Is there anything you haven't said to him you need to say?

I'm sorry about the loss of your sister, your daughter, my sister, because it hurt me bad. But, you know, a loss of a child to a parent, the worst thing that can happen to you has happened to you. Like, there's nothing else worse then that's happening and it's gonna happen to you. And no one wants that fate, right? No one. So.

Have you talked to him about that?

No, it's still too raw. We don't talk about it.

Do you feel like you'd regret it if you don't talk about it?

It's a weird dynamic. I mean, they live in Southern California, as I told you, in the same house I grew up in.

San Clemente.

San Clemente. And I stayed, I was there a couple weeks ago. I stayed with them and I stay in my sister's bed. I mean, I'm in her room. Like I said, that was four decades ago. Wow. It doesn't go away. Yeah.

How do you think you'd feel if you had that conversation?

We're males, right? Isn't it something we just would not. Yeah. I can't imagine. I can't even put my head how we'd have it. We're. We're too. Yeah, Greek men. I mean, it's, there's too much ego.

There's, I know that feeling.

Yeah.

You think he'd regret it though, if he passed and you didn't have that conversation?

That's why I want to go on the runway. You said if I could run with anyone.

Yeah. Yeah.

Now's the time, man.

I guess so.

He's here.

Take him on a little trail walk up in MaRine County. See him a couple hours.

Can he run or now?

Is he more of a walk?

He's a walker now. Yeah, he's run, he ran the inaugural LA Marathon. The first one in 1985.

That's cool.

I'll never forget because he trained for this marathon and he said to my mom and I, meet me at mile 20 because that's where I'm gonna like hit the wall.

I'm like, oh God, support me.

Cheers on. When I get there, tell me I look good and to keep going. So he comes running into mile 20, my mom looks at him, she's like, you look horrible, why don't you stop?

I'm like, Mom.

She's like, I'm just telling you the truth. Oh, and he did look horrible. And you're talking about covered in salt, you know, oh, we found him in the medic tent afterward, wrapped in that mylar blanket. Oh, I'm like, I saw him. You know, I said to myself, I'm like, I am never going to run a marathon. Like, never am I going to do anything like that to myself. And there you are.

Well, I think, you know, all these adventures of, you know, going 2500 miles.

And.

Three sleepless nights and all these journeys you go on, I think this might be one of the most powerful spiritual journeys you have if you do have that conversation and that walk slash jog with your dad while he's here. So it's my, my, my call to adventure for you. One of the greatest obstacles I think you'll overcome is having that vulnerable conversation with your dad. I never got to have that and I really wish I did. And so you have the opportunity.

It's going to be a heavy interview.

Running 300 miles is easy for you. Having a 15-minute conversation with your dad like that is probably going to be the hardest thing you ever do.

Yeah, I'm projecting right now and I yeah, I'm already, I feel my heart palpating. Yeah.

I'll just leave that right there for you to think about. But I think it's not what I.

Was expecting in this interview. That's the greatest muscular thing.

This is the school of greatness. That means opening your heart.

Yeah.

That means opening your heart to all the emotions of life, all the feelings, all the conversations. And the ones that scare us the most are the ones that usually set us free. So that's been my experience. You know, you've got You've got a lot more wisdom and age on me, but that's been my experience in the last, you know, years. I got age.

I don't know if I got wisdom.

I got age, yeah.

I'll give you that, yeah.

But I think it'd be a beautiful experience. I want to follow up with you and text you next week and see how it's going if you have the courage to do it. I'm not forcing you to do it, but I think you should, I think if you're feeling something that strongly, it would be, you know, something you might regret if you don't.

So I'll just say that. Yeah, it's hitting home because I don't I don't have a lot of time left to contemplate doing that.

I say everything you got to say and especially that conversation because you guys never talked about that, huh? When she passed it was kind of like sadness, darkness, but then you never really discussed it.

No, it no, it's yeah, you're right. It's been too long not to what's her name? Perry Perry?

What do you think she would think if you had that conversation?

She'd be proud of me.

Yeah. Oh man, I'm getting emotional just thinking about this.

We talked about life being a struggle. I mean, it is, it's a struggle. Yeah. Yeah.

But this has been beautiful, man. I've got a couple final questions for you. Your book, I want people to get access to your book and get a couple copies. A Runner's High, My Life in Motion by Dean Karnazes. Make sure you guys pick up a copy. inspiring stuff. What's the main thing you want people to get from the book when they get it? What are they going to go on? What type of adventure and journey are they going to go on?

There's a quote in there that says, When you get to where you're going, keep going. So never stop exploring. Yeah. Yeah.

And what are they going to learn when they're diving in?

Like, I got a message yesterday from a guy who said, Hey, I was going to read a couple of chapters of your book before I went to bed last night. He's like five hours later, I finished the book. And then I got up and went running. I just had to. So, it's a story. It's not going to tell you how to run. It's not prescriptive at all. Hopefully it'll touch your soul and touch your spirit.

I'm excited about this man. People can follow you online. They can follow the adventures, the journeys, all the crazy adventures that you're going on in the future. future, you document them, you post about them, all that stuff so people can see what you're up to. Ultramarathonman.com if people want to sponsor you, they can probably go there and send you an email if there's someone listening.

That sponsors a sponsor.

He's hustling every day, so send him some money to sponsor this next journey. You're on Twitter, Dean Karnazes on Twitter, Instagram, Ultramarathon on Instagram. Where do you spend the most time on social media? Where should we?

Instagram.

Instagram. Ultra marathon on Instagram. So, we'll check you out there. How else can we be of support.

And service to you?

Come run with me. I would love to, man. I'd love to go on a... I don't know if I can go as far as you, but I'd love to go off, you know, half marathon.

Somewhere or even just go the first five miles with you somewhere. Then you keep going.

I would feel a lot more comfortable running together than in this interview. I promise you that. You wouldn't be speaking. You'd just be like, all right, shut up, Louis, okay? You're in my territory. I'd love to go run sometime, man. Come to New York and I'll run.

The first few miles and then you'll just-- I might be at the New York City Marathon. I've done it like 15, you know, Jesse Itzler, who we talked about, I.

Think he's done it 25 times. No way. That's the first time I met him, I think, is that the-- I gotta see if he wants to come. That'd be fun. But you guys are so fast, I'm gonna be like so far behind, but--.

I'll do the first-- stay back with me on a 11, 12 minute mile.

The first few miles, and then you.

Guys can race off and do your stuff. I'm no longer about speed. Believe me, I'm no longer about speed.

Yeah. What's your marathon, you know, kind of average time right now? If you're just gonna go off and run one, you're looking for under three hours.

No, two and a half. I mean, I would have to work my ass off to run sub three, where I used to be able to just kind of fake it, but now I'd have to. Yeah. So I'm. You go three and a half. Three and a half ish.

Yeah. What is that?

Seven and a half minute mile.

What is.

I think it's around eight or something.

Yeah.

That's amazing. Yeah.

Okay, so you run 11 minute mile at first.

We all cross the same. I guarantee the medal I could put around my neck is going to be.

The same as yours. I love this, man. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end, Dean. It's called the Three Truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. It's your last day on Earth, many years away. You get to live as long as you want, but eventually it's your last day. and every adventure and crazy idea you have, you go and live them. You keep going, right? And you write books and you speak and you run and all this stuff until the day you die. But for whatever reason on your last day, you've got to take all of your message with you. This book, this interview, anything you've ever shared publicly, it's got to go with you to the next place. But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world that you've learned in your life. I call it the three truths. What would be those three truths for you?

You're speaking to a Greek again, so I'm going to literally plagiarize the Oracle at Delphi. Know thyself, be thyself, and all things in moderation. except running. He was so wise, but he got the last one wrong.

Yeah. That's funny, man. I like that. I was like, wait a minute. I want to acknowledge you, Dean, for leaning into your, I guess really, your vulnerabilities, your insecurities. I didn't know you were so introverted. I guess I should have known that, but I've seen you in videos and interviews before. But for you opening up and talking about things that maybe you don't talk about normally, and people seeing this side of you, I think it's really powerful. So I acknowledge you for having the courage to be vulnerable, not just the courage to do the physically extreme, which sounds like it's harder for you to be vulnerable than to run 500 miles. So I really acknowledge you for this.

The moment we set up this interview, I was like, every day I thought, oh God, oh God, oh God.

It's coming up. It's coming up. I really know you, man. It's not easy. It took me a long time to learn how to open up and be vulnerable. And I spent years doing therapy and exercises and practices and just throwing myself into it. So it's not easy. I understand it. And I really hope you get to have that conversation with your dad in the next couple weeks.

So. Thanks for encouraging me.

Of course. Of course. My final question. What is your definition of greatness being?

True to yourself, being who you are. Yeah.

Oh man, thanks so much, man. Appreciate it, brother. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys. So share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I wanna remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. Prices keep going up these days.

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