The 3 AM Truth That Cost Him $14.5 Million | Matthew McConaughey

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I'm so grateful that you have continued to step out from your industry of being, you know, a world-class actor and creative artist, and being— expressing yourself more, right? Sharing your art, your poetry, your stories, your lessons, and your truths. So it's been a beautiful journey to watch you continue to impact lives, not only on screen but also off, as yourself. So I'm really grateful that you're doing this.

Cool, thank you. I'm glad it, it's landed that way.

Yeah, for, for you.

Um, it's been challenging and gratifying for me. But that— it started with the book. You've written books, uh, you know, what I, what I wanted to do is when I'm acting, I'm going through— I have 5 filters between my raw expression and what you see on screen. 5. Someone else's script, someone else's character, someone else behind the camera, uh, someone else directing, someone else editing. That's 5 filters between me and the raw expression. What wrote the book was I said I want to get rid of some of those filters. Now, book is one filter. It's still a written word.

Yes.

But, and the ultimate is like when people do stand-up or performances or like this, we're live, this is no filter. And so that's what I wanted to do where I could direct my own story, be the main character in my own story, edit it through my lens. And, um, it stuck in a way, which was nice to hear the reverb and hear people here come back to me about what they got from it, questions they still have. About it, um, and how it, it helped them along their own path in some ways.

Did you have any fear doing this?

Yeah.

Really?

Yeah.

What was the biggest fear?

I don't like looking back over my shoulder, man. I, I, uh, I mean, I haven't even seen all my movies. Really? I like making them more than I like watching them, you know. So to look back over 50 years of my life, 40 years of writings was a scary proposition for me because I feared I'd be in— having some embarrassments. I feared I'd be shamed about, feel shameful about some things. And I always had— I'd always— I've always written and had the journals, but my excuse was, oh, you know, post-mortem, maybe Camilla, my wife, will dig that out and read them. Oh, this is worth putting out. It was always an excuse, right? And, um, finally I got the confidence to go, you know what, no, go, go away and take those boxes of journals and those chests of journals and go see what you got. And I looked at him and I was embarrassed about it. Yeah.

What was the thing that you were most embarrassed about?

Being a wiseass, thinking I knew stuff, proclaiming I knew stuff when I would contradict myself right after. Or I had, you know, times where I would say, ooh, very, I look back at it, very arrogant, very, you know, but I, but I, I come to, I've come to understand now that I was doing that to find an identity. And it's youth and the revolutionaries of youth do that. You try it out. Let's test it. I know this. It fails. OK, to the next. Something I don't think we should forget as we get older. We just start to understand context and innuendo and two things can be true at the same time. When you're younger, it's black and it's white. And so I had things that I was embarrassed about that. And what happened after about 10 days of writing the book and going through them, some embarrassment and quite a bit of shame, where I also didn't walk the walk, but talk the talk to myself even. I started to notice that, oh, well actually, if you wouldn't have been that sort of all-knowing and what I would call arrogant at this point, you wouldn't have put yourself in the position to learn better or to get humbled or to find that, oh, I thought I had it figured out. I didn't. So I was like, okay. So all of a sudden the embarrassment turned into chuckles. So now I'm starting to laugh at myself. You stepped in it, man. You talked, you didn't back it up. You ate crow. And that rhythm happened a lot through, through my life. And I think it happens to, to, to, to all of us in certain ways. And I think one of the things that people got from the book that I got from writing it was people come to me and said, look, I'm taking more risk now. And I think that's, that's part of it. Like, when we fail, which is why we— so many of us don't take as many risks, it's never really— not never, but almost always— never as really bad as we thought it was going to be.

When we fail at the risk.

Yeah, yeah. When we fail at doing it, it's never that— the, the letdown's never in a real measure as bad as we thought it was going to be. And the people that are going, 'Nah, nah, nah, baby,' they're on the sidelines for a reason. You play football, they're over there They're in the bleachers with the whistle in their mouth for a reason. But the ones that are on the field trying out stuff with you, they're right there next to you going, hey, man, me too. I blew it over here. I blew it here. But thanks for taking the shot. Thanks for trying. That's what we're doing. And I think a lot— that's something that a lot of people got from the book. So the shame and the embarrassment turned into humor. And then I noticed that I consistently stepped in the same pile quite a few times. I think I've evolved somewhat, but I'm still working on the piles.

I'm stepping in.' When did you feel like you were the most wounded? Wounded— like internally wounded, where maybe you had it, you thought you had it all figured out or you felt like I'm successful but really on the inside maybe you felt like you were full of, you know—

oh well there's been a few but I'll say look Australia the year I had there and you know that story from the book that was a really tough year but that was not a year when I thought I had to figure it out that was a big year the early questions of youth are why why why yes why You learn some things, you start to define your hows and whens and your wheres. And but when I was rolling in my career later on in life and was, uh, rolling rom-coms in, in, in, uh, in, in Hollywood, um, I was enjoying them, but I didn't feel like they were feeding me back. I didn't feel like they were the right kind of challenge for me. And it came to me at a time when I, I Camila and I had fallen in love and she was pregnant with our first son. So all of a sudden life's vital, man. It's like real, right? My laughs are louder, my tears are wetter, my joy is bigger, my pain is deeper. Rom, that's not where rom-coms are built. Rom-coms are built to be buoyant up here. Keep it light, bounce cloud to cloud. Don't go so deep or so high. They're built that way on purpose. But my life was extremely, extremely dramatic, and I liked it. And I would tell— I said, I started to feel like, well, what am I doing in my career? I remember saying this, am I just an entertainer? And I made sure to look myself in the mirror and go, and if you are, is there anything wrong with being just an entertainer? That's okay too. But I, I just wanted to see if my career could challenge the vitality of my life that I was living at the time. So I tried to find dramas that I wanted to do that more represented the man I was becoming. Hollywood was saying, no thank you, you stay in your lane, McConaughey. We got other people that'll do those. So I'll take a— I'll take a massive pay cut. We said, no thank you, stay in your lane. So because I couldn't do what I wanted to do, I pulled up and quit doing what I was doing, and I took a one-way ticket out of Hollywood not knowing if it'd be a one-way ticket or a return ticket, but it— not knowing how long I was going to be dry into that work.

It's 20 months, right?

20 months without, without any work.

That's unbelievable. When was the time where you felt like— or when you felt like people stopped talking about you, or you weren't as relevant, or they stopped calling you for auditions?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the first—

the gossip news or whatever?

Hell no, I wouldn't. I mean, now remember, I'm coming from Hollywood at that time. I was living in Malibu. Uh-huh. Living on the beach. And my rom-com run was parlayed with paparazzi getting shots of me on the beach all the time. So McConaughey shirtless on the beach was synonymous with McConaughey and the rom-coms. It was like, his life is his rom-coms. Rom-coms is his life, right? So I moved, uh, Camilla to Texas and we, and no beaches there. Um, no paparazzi there. No one's interested. So I'm like, okay, I start thinking about, do I need to start another— find another career, another vocation?

No.

Oh yeah, really?

Like stop acting all in all?

Well, I didn't know. I, I knew I had already made the covenant with myself and my wife that I was not going back. Was I wobbly at that time? Was I looking for some— something to achieve and find some significance and purpose? Thankfully, I've got a young child on the way, or was probably maybe at 12 months born, just born at that time. So that's given me real resonance and purpose to keep me at least focused somewhere, focused on something I can rely on being, having meaning and value, but still I needed my own personal thing to get off to my own craft. And I, and I, and I didn't have it. Um, what was I going to do? So, you know, freaking making wind chimes, you know what I mean? But seriously, I was like— and I've said this before— the old bottle of my favorite spirit started looking a little bit better earlier in the day because the days were long, bro. Days were getting long.

You started one of—

Monday and Saturday were melded into each other. And you know what a lifelong Saturdays can do to us? Make a tyrant out of us, bro. So I was looking for—

but you were on the top, man. You were like—

I was the top Rom-coms. Yeah, that was my— I, I owned that lane, and I was the go-to rom-com guy. But I was not going to go back and do that. I'd made the truth that I had, that 3 AM truth that hit me and stuck with me for months before I made the decision to step out of Hollywood. I knew it was true. It was a quiet truth, and tears have been shed on my wife's shoulder with myself going, this is a decision we're making in my soul. We're going to make it and stick to it.

And no matter— I think you talk about You know, I think there was like someone offered you $15 million or somewhere around there, right around month testing you, 18, and it starts testing you. It's like, hell, $5 million, $10 million, $12 million. And then you said it starts to—

well, I'll tell you the story. So, um, but a year goes by, nothing. And I said, I'm starting to think about different vocations, but I'm going to stick to my guns. 15 months, 18 months, another rom-com comes in, but my agent says, this one's really good. And check out this offer. They offer an $8 million offer. Let me read that. Number 4, first year, I wouldn't even read. No, right? No to the genre. No. But I read it. It's pretty good, man. No, thank you. They come back, $10 million offer. I said, no, thank you. They come back with a $12 million offer. I said, no. Thank you. They come back with a $14.5 million offer for the same script, right? They sent first with the $8 million offer. And what I say, let me read this again. And I read it again and it was funnier. Yeah, I read it again. It was funnier. It was— I could see myself in that character. I was like, this could be a pretty good idea, buddy. What do you do? But I ultimately said no. And when I said no to the $14.5, I think what it did is it sent an invisible sort of lightning bolt through Hollywood execs that McConaughey just turned down $14.5 million. He hasn't worked in 18 months and he just turned down $14.5 million. What's he up to?

Interesting.

What's that guy doing? He's on to something. To turn that down, it shifted. It was like, he's definitely not bluffing. Okay. Yeah. So one of two things could happen. Okay, thanks for your run in Hollywood, McConaughey. See you next life. Or what did happen is two months later, I get a call for The Lincoln Lawyer and Killer Joe and, and, and, and, and Mud and True Detective and Dallas Buyers Club, all these things. And so what happened is I became— I unbranded in those 8, in those 8, 20 months. Where is he now? He just turned down the 14.5. Wait, this guy's making affirmative action. That, that isn't a recessive move. That's like, that's like, you're doing what, right? What do you got going? So all of a sudden I became a new good idea for possibly these dramas I was looking for because I've been gone so long. Interesting. Because you didn't— I wasn't getting recorded on the beach shirtless, mountain boot, right? I wasn't in your theater, your home, in a rom-com each night. I was persona non grata for a while. Well, when you're gone long enough, you either forgotten or you become a new novel good idea, maybe, for what you were looking for. And that's what fortunately happened for me.

I love this because you talk about, um, planting gardens to attract butterflies as opposed to chasing them. You also talk about this idea of being the target versus—

the target draws the arrow.

Yes.

Yeah.

So is that kind of what you were doing? It's like you were, you were, you know, tending to your own garden, your own inner world, you're developing yourself, shedding the old skin and becoming anew during that time and allowing the right things to come to you?

Well, I was definitely doing the first, but I couldn't rely on the second. Okay, I was definitely tending my own garden.

How do we learn to have that trust and the faith that there might be something great coming to us when we draw a line in the sand and we say we're not going back to this personality we had, these habits, these behaviors, this industry that we were in that served us so well. Yeah. For so long.

Yeah.

But now I'm saying no to that old way of being and trusting that something greater is going to wash over me. How do we trust?

Because it could have not happened for you.

It could have not happened. We might not be sitting here right now. I might not have gone on to do the work that I've been doing since then. I might not have had the courage to go write the book. I might, I might be that high school football coach that I was thinking about being. Breathe. Yeah, I might be that wildlife guide in Africa that I was thinking about being. I might be that conductor of a symphony that I was thinking about becoming and not sitting here. How do we trust it? I think, look, when the decision came to me, it came— I was, I was in a position to hear the truth. I was in it. I was in it. My heart was looking and my mind were looking, and I was giving myself room to cut out all the outside stimulus.

Yes.

And you know how when those truths come, they land like a lightning bolt and a butterfly at the same time. But you know they're true and they're true for you when they land and you go, oh, that was a direct line. Whether you're religious or you call it the prime mover, the waymaker, the universe, whatever you want to call it, that was a direct line. And that, that's true to me.. And then comes the hard part. Trust in that truth when the sun rises and you're back in the middle of the masses, then they're all going, hey, try this. What are you doing today? They, they weren't there for that truth last night. Mm-hmm. Their truth that they think of you was the same one you had the day before, but now your truth's different.

Mm-hmm.

So trust in that and not letting your onion get peeled because that's what happens. It starts to strip away. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's why I think why people have, you know, church once a week. Because you're good on Monday, but come Friday you need it, you know what I mean? You start to forget the things, you know. Um, that's why we need to update, to maintain ourselves with our mental health, spiritual health, and physical health. Understanding is one thing, but then keeping it in action and trusting in it, uh, and having the patience to trust into another. So It hit me in a clear way that I knew it was true. I had someone in my life, Camila, that was close to me that I could share it and understood it and understood in the way that I shared it with her. She was like, okay, I hear you. You're not negotiating. You're not asking me a question. You're sharing with me the truth for you so I can be by your side and say this so I can be by your side and make sure you stick to it because I know how important this is to you.

What was that truth that you heard or that came to you? At that time?

That I needed to do something different, more. I needed more to fulfill me at that point. That while I was happy that I was getting off so much to the vitality in my real life, more so than my work, I even looked in the mirror and said, well, if it's got to be one way or the other, congratulations. Because a lot of times I've had the times where you're getting off to your work more than your real life, right? Right. But I was like, I believe my work can challenge the vitality. I hope that my life is more vital than my work for as long as possible. Please. I hope, I hope it is, but I think I can get my work to challenge the vitality and make me sweat my boots in the right way, in the same way that my life is, to give me the joy and the pain and all that the way my life is. And so I was like, We'll bet on it and make it non-negotiable. Make one bet and stick to it. Wow. And you know, sometimes it's endurance. So trust in that. I was never— I never questioned going back on my decision.

No matter how much money?

No, no.

$20 million, $30 million, $100 million, you'd be like, it's just not worth it.

No, because as the number— trust me, when that number went from 8 to 10, 12 to 14.5, I started getting a little—

ooh, maybe I got a little—

I was like, here we go, here we go.

You want me—

it didn't go from 8 to 6 to 4 to 2, right? Went up, it went up. I was like, okay, I got— I'm getting leverage in this. And I realized when I turned down the $14.5, I said, I got a sneaky suspicion this may give me a little leverage because that's a big number.

And that's for, you know, there's a small community of the agents and the managers and the directors in Hollywood, and everyone's got to hear that you turn this down.

I was sure hoping so, and I believe they did. Right now, Hollywood could come tell me how much my hypothesis on that is true, but I've heard from quite a few whispers like, no, when you turned that down, that was— people went double took and went, he did what?

Right.

Which, I don't know, made me more attractive in a new way, you know, or made you— you know, when someone does that and you're like Oh, they got their own thing going. They didn't just remove themselves and sitting out there wandering in the desert. They're on to something. I don't know what it is, but you can become more attractive. And in a way, I think I became more attractive for that reason. They're like, you turned out 14.5. He's got something going on. He's got a point of view. He's doing this for a reason. He's got some purpose with which he's doing this.

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Now you had, you had your first, um, first kid right around then or year before then?

No, right, right in there. It was about a little over, a little less than a year into that.

One of the things I respect and admire about you is, yes, your career is incredible, But the fact that you, you know, I've been in a loving, committed relationship for, I don't know, 16 years. 16 years. You've got 3 kids, um, and you have found a lot of fulfillment in the richness of living, not just in making money in the career and the success and the fame. It's one of the things I respect about you. It's one of the things me and Martha were talking about this morning, about how you, you know, you, you could have had— you could have been the bachelor forever.

Yeah.

Where do you think your life would have been in that year had you not had the loving, committed relationship, child as well, first child? Where do you think temptation would have led you? Or do you think you would have made the same decision with the sand on the ground? Or was it having a committed, conscious, loving relationship and partner and teammate that allowed you to have the courage to act with that line in the sand?

Well, hmm. And the only reason I pause here is because I'm trying to wonder how little of credit to give the relationship, because I'm not going to say it's 100%, but it's up there. The relationship, having her and be now about to become a father, which was the only thing I ever wanted to be, had great resonance for me. I, one, had a relationship which gave me, just singularly with Camila, gave me more license and courage to fly. But now I'm going to become immortal, so to speak, with a child coming into the world. It's the one thing I ever dreamed of being, become a father. That was at the top of my list since I was a kid. Now I'm like, well, this is what I'm doing. This part of life is always taking precedent. Before anything I did since. Got famous, won this or won that. My career was always in front of a Hollywood career, always. That's what I mean by JK Living. That's why JK Living's always been sort of a mantra. What, at the end of the day, they argue with that one. End of the day, that wins out. I've always wanted to have a life that I'm leading first and I became an actor and a movie star and famous. But not, oh, I'm an actor, movie star, I'm famous, so now what do I do? How do I live my life according to that? No, I didn't want to keep those in order.

If you didn't have that relationship at that time, what do you think would have happened?

That's a good question. What would have happened?

Um, do you think it would have been more tempting to take the money and let me just—

yeah, I mean, yeah, the nights would have been even longer. The, the, the, the, the I think it would have definitely got more wobbly. I would have really had to— I mean, I believe I could have pulled it off. I'm glad I didn't have to find out if I could pull it off on my own. I might have, I might have run off to the monastery and still be there. I, I, I, um, you know, or 'Cause I had, I look, I had very somewhat reliable temptation from people very close to me going, what's your malfunction, bro? My brothers and family were like, what is your major malfunction? What are you doing? You own this land in the Rhône, but why are you making a straight line crooked? Which is the line we always use. Why are you making this complicated? Do you know how many people would dream of this? Dream to even be doing this. And so, I did have that understanding, which I bring up in the book, about being less impressed and more involved. I was very thankful. I was never disrespecting the rom-com. I was just like, I don't know, I didn't make this up, this feeling in me.

Yeah, you're in a new season.

There's a new chapter to come. So I don't— what would I have been doing? What would I be doing now if I didn't have Camilla and she— we didn't have our first child on the way? I don't know. That 20 months would have felt like 20 years. Wow. If I'd have stuck with it.? And would I have had the patience? Would I have had the fortitude? Would I have been able to stay still in the long, lonely nights where I didn't feel like I had purpose, or I didn't feel significant, where I didn't have a newborn child and a relationship to look at and go— because I knew then, I was like, you put time into that, you cannot go wrong, right? I looked at my newborn child, I looked at— I was like, you put time into this, you are in the black. There is no debit. No matter how much, you can't overdo that. Yeah, so that gave me something. If I didn't have that, no, no, I'm not sure, I'm not sure.

There's a lot of men that are driven men. I'm in LA, so I see this in LA where they, they feel like they need to be single for a long time, or they need to jump from partner to partner, or yeah, have multiple partners at the same time, all these different things. No judgment, no right or wrong here, but I'm curious, what have you learned about 16 years in a relationship that has taught you about how much more successful you can be in other areas of life versus single life when you were also extremely successful, but maybe there was something missing, you know, emotionally or spiritually?

Yeah, well, I'm gonna piggyback on where you first started. I don't— I've got friends that are poly, and I've got friends that are perpetually single, and, uh, to see them when they do pull it off and still have a healthy spirit and a healthy body and a healthy mind, I applaud it. Right on. I do. I have seen a lot of them have to— oh, I got to recalibrate. I got, you know, I got, I got off, I got spread too thin. Energy, you know, a bunch of little campfires but no bonfires, right? Um, you can do it. I think, I think a person can do it on their own. I think a person can do it in solitude. I think a person can do it even with a relationship with just themselves. If you— it can be done. Um, but when you have a relationship that you're committed to, that you want to make work, that it's part of your decision, and especially when you have a child that is not only committed to you, is dependent on you, That goes to the top of the value system. And so career choices can go into the 2-hole or maybe the 3-hole. Now, I would argue that I got better at my career when it went to the 2 and 3-hole and wasn't in the 1-hole. Really? Because I didn't— and I feared this. I was like, whoa, I was having a family. And the fact that when we had kids, my wife said, if we have kids on one condition, Matthew, When you go, we go. So my family comes with me. When she said that to me, I remember going through my mind, wait a minute, I'm an artist. I'm a lone wolf. When I go to work, I'm in my Airstream all alone. It's me and my dog, maybe, but nobody else. And as I'm saying that in my head, this other little smarter voice comes in and goes, nod your head and say, yes, ma'am. And I said, yes, ma'am. It was the greatest decision I've ever made.

Right.

Because seeing my kids or leaving before they woke up and seeing 'em when I got home after work. Was the— was a beautiful, energizing reset for me at the end of the day that filled me up with real life and made me more creative. Interesting. Going into work the next day. To tell a child when you're doing something like True Detective and they go, what was the scene about today? And you go, I better tell a good parable because I can't tell them the real thing. It's some heavy R stuff, right? So I became a better storyteller and how I'd make it a nursery rhyme or something. Um, but you're living for something for someone else and something more. And, you know, for Camille and I living for the covenant that for her and I to do what we can to stay together and keep promoting each other and ourselves in a relationship and then to have the kids. I'm living, you're living for something else. And that empowered me and made me better as an individual. Really? And when I go out the door, I have more courage because I know I've got that stability at home. Wow.

Where do you think you would've been if you would've been in a relationship, you know, 5, 10 years prior?

Yeah.

And it'd be 25 years as opposed to 16, do you think you would have been better in your career or you'd made that shift sooner? Or do you feel like, you know, being a lone wolf, you had its time and its place?

And I think it had its time, its place. I'm not arrogant enough to say, oh, if I go back and change time. I mean, I've thought about that. I was with and dated seriously some wonderful women before I met Camila. I think it wasn't the time for me and it wasn't the time for them, for us to take it further, to take it as far as, say, getting married or something. But, uh, you know, I often wonder, what if, what if it was, what if I felt like it was time that early? I never did, right? What if I did? You know, do we meet the right person sometimes, but it's just not the time for us?

Interesting.

Do we do, or is it, it's the two plays, got to be the right person and the right time for each person, but I, I know I, I cannot go back. You know, going forward is a mystery, looking back is a science. When I connect the dots, I don't dare to go back and go, if I had changed 10 years earlier, I'm thinking about who I was dating, if we got married. I mean, who knows? I, I don't think, I don't think it would have been the same realization 10 years earlier. I was a different man. Yeah, I was, I was seeing the world differently. And we'll never know, but I don't— I think it was the right time for me when this happened, and my single years were the right amount of time for me when I was there. And those relationships before that that ultimately ended, that was the right time for them to end.

So how old were you when you met your wife?

We're 16, 53, 40, 37.

37. So when you were 37 before the moment you met her. Yeah, I think you met her at a bar.

Sunset Club on Sunset.

Sorry, it's Club on Sunset Club. Let's call it that morning.

Um, don't go to many clubs. Glad I went to the club this night.

Yeah, let's get it. Let's call it that morning or that season right before you met her.

Yeah.

What was it that made you feel loved then?

Yep.

And what is it today that makes you feel the most loved today?

Okay, what does it make me feel the most loved before? Yes, better. Okay. When I was spiritually strong. And look, I was— I had some relationships that were loving relationships that— or I loved the woman, she loved and cared for me, and those were real. Yes. I also had a season where it was just affairs. It wasn't about love. It was lust. It's fun. Yeah, it was fun. And it was, it was healthily— it was a healthy, fun transaction. And we laughed and kept it light, and that was all it was ever going to be. And we're not even, you know, and that was okay too. Um, I am happy to say that through most, most of that, I was able to keep somewhat spiritually strong.

Really?

Um, how did you say— had no— and didn't really have trouble sleeping. Alone in my own bed. Because I've had those times, I think we all have if we've had this single life, where there's times where if you're, if you're rolling like that, especially if it's like affairs and flirt popping around here and there, boy, all of a sudden you end up in bed alone, you can't sleep. You're like, whoa, wait a minute, now I'm the company I can't stand being with? If it's only me, that would always be a trigger for me, like You better bend a knee and go, go inward, catch your breath and go inward here.

So, so what made you feel the most loved before you met her?

What was it?

I mean, was it the success or the, the fame? Chase? Was it the, you know?

No, it wasn't the chase and catch. I knew what, I, I knew what that was. I, that, that always felt like a stop and not a stay. Mm-hmm. To me, it was a season.

Yeah.

I understood it to be a season. And I gave myself freedom and license to have that season as healthily as I could. Um, I don't think I was any more shallow, right? Um, I didn't think, oh, this is all there is. I did have a dream where I thought where I was 80 and 88-year-old bachelor but had a lot of children. You did? Yeah. And it wasn't a nightmare.

88-year-old bachelor and you got a lot of children.

That wasn't a porch. And it wasn't a nightmare. Really? And I woke up from that dream not going, yippee, that's what I'll do. I did wake up with it going, That's possible. Mm. As soon as I said that's possible, I did quit looking so hard. And when I quit looking for her so hard, that's when she came. Mm. Because before that, I will say, in my thought of I do want to find someone to fall in love with and start a family. I mean, every red light, bro. LA, possible, possible. Produce section, you know what I mean? Possible, possible. Every, you know, you just—

yoga class, Whole Foods, where you checking?

You know, everywhere. And I was looking, I was leaning in, leaning in, and then said, well, maybe that could work. Like, that script, well, maybe that could work, you know. Um, and then when I had that dream, it did. It was like, oh, on spiritual sense, I was like, Well, you might end up being an 80-year-old bachelor. And if you've got spiritually— if you're spiritually strong, your relationship with God's strong, that's, that's okay. It didn't make me go, that's what I want to do, right? But just saying that could be a reality for you. Let me exhale. And I quit looking everywhere at everybody. I quit looking in the first second. Was like— and I— what happens when you do that? You become more attractive. You allow yourself to be loved. You allow yourself to see someone who actually you might love. But mainly you allow yourself to be someone that can be loved, and you're not selling, you're not soliciting yourself, you're not in a rush about anything. You're gonna meet somebody, you also— what you look at, you want to see how they move, how far back are the shoulders, how do they talk, what do they say in between the lines. Not what they say, what they say in between the lines. And I remember when I saw Camila walk across the club that night, it was the way she moved. I saw history. I saw dignity. I saw somebody that was not for sale. I saw somebody that, that, that, that didn't need— that when I called her over was not happy to meet me, wasn't over there, wasn't impressed with my vocation. And she knew who I was, wasn't impressed with that. She was about a lot more than that. So I— my eyes were open to seeing what I wanted and needed. And I also was able to in that moment completely be myself, not oversell myself, not undersell myself.

Did you feel like you need to oversell yourself before then, even though you had all the success and the fame and the hits and the money?

And I think, I think when— just to spit, it's a sped up process, you know, especially if you're like— and you know, if it's a more of a string of short-term relationships. It's like, it's not overselling. It's just like, let's skip the, let's skip a lot of the real stuff. Let's skip a lot of the, you know what I mean? I don't want to take that. Come on. We're just here. We're laughing. We're having a good time. You know what I mean? And that's all, that's all we're both in this for. So, you know, so you speed up the process a little bit. So I don't know when you say, what did I love? It wasn't my fame. Did I feel more loved if my movie did well and more people came up and was like, that was great? Sure, sure. But that was never my top source of feeling affirmation, of feeling love. Did I feel less loved if the movie bombed or people were like, ah, I don't like? Sure. But that was never my main thing. The source of my lack of confidence or lack of significance. It was, you know, spiritual. And then I always had, look, I always had family at this time. Being my brothers and my mom and stuff, there was always that, um, that I knew was 100% reliable. But mainly I'd say spiritual. And then your follow-up question to what makes you feel more loved now—

yeah, when do you feel the most loved now?

Oh, the good night group hug with my 3 kids and my wife after we've just talked about what our day was like, what we're looking forward to tomorrow. And we've had a few fun disagreements and somebody said something real honest that they didn't have the courage to say maybe a week before. And for the first time noticed that if they shared that, they weren't going to get in trouble, that they were just going. And to see them grow and going, you got the courage. We mean then to feel like a dad and go, me and your mother giving you a place to feel like you can go. We, I did like her and my heart hurts because she doesn't like me. To be able to, for a child to be able to say that to you, it's like, okay, we're doing something right. There we go. That's a feeling of love, to have an honest talk, not just about all of the happy times, but about the stuff that sucks in my kids' lives as well. And even from my wife, to share it and it not be like dun dun dun dun.

Right, right.

To be like, yep, we're going through this. And one thing we know is we're going through it together. That, that, that's beautiful.

That's beautiful. One of the things that you talked about in the book, in the last couple pages, was this list of goals that you wrote down.

One of them—

isn't that wild—

10 goals in life, 1992.

92.

One of them, becoming a father, and number 2, finding and keeping the woman for me. The woman for me.

Yep.

Um, and you had 10 of them. I'm curious How important is it to write down our visions, our dreams, our goals in order to manifest what we want in our lives? Because this whole book is a, yeah, a journal of you writing down everything.

Yeah.

And all 10 of these, you've accomplished all of them and you're still accomplishing and living into them.

Yeah.

So how important is it to write down our dreams, our goals, our values in order to manifest and attract them?

I think it's a lot more important than we give it credit for. Look, writing things down, it seems like this old-fashioned sort of archaic things. Type it, it's on the screen, put it on, put it in a Word doc, save it, put in a folder. It can be lost back there. To actually write it with the hand does— is a different kind of objectivity you get because it's come out of you. You've put it down. Now you're looking at it. It's outside of you. It's freed up now. It's alive. It's moving now. More so than having that goal by your bedside every night, which is— can be good, but to write it down, if you're writing down true goals, they become written in your lineage. They become written in your body, whether you know it or not, in your subconscious.

Interesting.

It's a way to get it into your subconscious, to write it down. Now it's out of me. It's on a page. I'm objectifying it now. I'm looking at it. At it. So now I'm having a dialogue where before it was just Socratic, but now I'm having a dialogue and it starts to reciprocate. Those 10 goals, I wrote those down in the top bunk in the Dell House, University of Texas, 1992. My roommate was Monty Wills. I remember the night I wrote them down. Wow. I never looked at them again.

Huh.

I found those in writing this book and found out that, oh my gosh, all 10 you actually did, and, and 4 you're still doing.

That's crazy. 30 years later you found them.

Yeah, that's crazy.

But they all happened.

They all happened. I don't think they happen if I don't write them down. I don't think they do. So that practice of writing something down that you into, that you want, or that you yearn for, and to add to it or subtract from it along the way if you want to, or just write it down Fold it up, tuck it away so you can find it 30 years later when you go want to share a journal or write something about it like I did. Um, I don't think it happens, but then just go back and see the invisible contract I made with myself. Oh my gosh, I love that. Because obviously I did, because I mean, I— those 10 people go, you've done all 10. I said, well, no, I'm in the middle. I'm still— I have to maintain— I'm still maintaining 4, but I have engaged Some of them I'm just done, but I have engaged— I am in full engagement with all of them.

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Well, it's an invisible contract until it becomes a, a physical written contract, right?

You know, but it's with yourself. I guess it becomes— there's an invisible way it becomes subconsciously non-negotiable with yourself.

And here's the interesting thing on this. Is this the exact image or is this a recreated image?

No, that's it.

This is the photo of it, or you signed it?

Yeah.

And that's what I think is actually really important, because you did create a contract with self, right? You signed the goals at the bottom. You have 10 goals in life, 9, 1, 92, and you bottom— at the bottom you signed it. And I think that's really important in creating a, you know, uh, this contract with self is putting your name on something that you write down from the ideas in your mind into paper so that you can actualize this in life. And I think that's what's beautiful.

And you were like, what, 20 years old when you did this?

20, 21. And, and folks, anyone who thinks, so that sounds like, you know, Mike Tyson talking about Mike Tyson when he's himself, talking to third person, do it. Don't worry. Sign your stuff to yourself. You know what I mean? Write, write to yourself and sign it.

Mm-hmm.

It's a great practice to do. You know, you are then, you are then getting a third person objective view of yourself, where— so you will have a better chance of subjectively creating those and activating those things and having them happen.

One of the things in here, um, number 7, stay close to mom and family. I know there was a period, I think you said 6 or 8 years, where you pulled away from your mom. I think you're still close with your brother, but you pulled back because she was kind of loving my fame, loving the fame, and it was making it about her as opposed to supporting your son. Um, So that was something that kind of came and went and you danced with, but you know, now it seems like you guys are, you know, in a great place.

She's living with us 4 years now. She's 91.

And then also you had number 8, won an Oscar for the best actor. How do you at 20, 21, that's right down a goal of winning an Oscar when I think—

and I wasn't even acting at that time.

That's nuts. You didn't even do the first movie yet.

No. Why did that come in your mind?

Why was that even a thought, a dream, a goal?

So this is, I believe, right after I had— soon after I had called my father to say, I don't want to go to law school anymore, I want to go to film school. Now, looking back, and he said a great line back to you. He said a great line.

He said, don't half-ass it.

Don't half-ass it. Yeah. Which was 3, whatever, 4, however many words, is the best words I've ever heard from the man who I ultimately really wanted my ultimate approval from. And he didn't give me— he gave me a lot more than approval with that line. He gave me a kick in the backside. Privilege, freedom, responsibility. Kick ass, go do it. And I suppose, kind of consciously, but probably subconsciously too, there's things that I've done where I wanted to let something slide and those words came on. I was like, uh-uh, no way. That'd be half-assing it. So those words have lived with me. I, I decided I want to go to film school, and I went back to these journals and I find something like that. I was like, dude, you always wanted to be an actor.

Oh, interesting.

Like, you just wouldn't admit it. And I remember always being sheepish about— someone go like, well, you just want to— want you performing. Something about it, and I had felt felt fraudulent. Then something about being behind the camera, to go to director school, learning story, felt like, well, that's my— I'll sneak in the back door to the acting, right? But that's the better way. And I, I'm glad I went that path, but I think I wanted to. And I'm talking to my buddy Rob Bendler, who I bring up often in this book, about it. He was like, yeah, you were wanting to— you remind me of talks we'd have late night. And he was already at NYU Film School. He was like reminding me, yeah, you were already wanting to at this time when you first went to film school. So I write that down to myself. I'm not afraid to write down to myself, but I'm afraid to say anything like that out loud. I'm not— I'm afraid to even say I would— I'm interested in going into acting at this point.

Wow.

But yet I write down, I wanna win an Oscar.

That's why.

That's crazy. Wow. So when you saw this paper, you had already won Yeah, these goals. Yeah, you know, for the first time after, I guess, close to 30 years— you'd wanted, I think, I don't know, 6, 7 years prior to that.

Yeah.

Um, what did that feel like when you read this and you saw win an Oscar for Best Actor?

I read, I was like, nah, are you kidding? Get out of here, Camilla! Check this out! Are you kidding me?

Wow.

And then I went right back to the night. And I remember sitting in the top bunk. We'd just come from the arcade, me and Monty Wills, my roommate. He was in the bottom bunk, I was in the top bunk. Like a Tuesday, Thursday night. I've been journaling. I wrote in this little journal, and I remember that night. Other people were actually going out for a late— we'd been out kind of partying, other people went to the next party, and I decided to come home and so did Monty. I love the top bunk. I can brush my teeth, went up, put them shores, got in bed, got in covers, sat up there and had a little window right here. And I'm a little diary on the little windowsill with a pen.

Bunk bed.

Yeah, that we made. We made these bunks. We're the first bunk beds in the Dell House. And, um, pulled over and I wrote it. And I think I had it— I think I even, um, a form of a headlamp, if they even had headlamps. I loved it. I still do love headlamps. Um, and written that, and I wrote that down. Wow.

Curious, if you didn't create this contract for yourself, do you think you would have accomplished all 10 of these goals and dreams for your life, or would some of them maybe fall through the cracks because you didn't create that— turn the invisible contract into a physical written contract and make it real?

I, I don't know. I mean, I have to believe that writing them down subconsciously led to me. Actually, I knew what they were. I couldn't recite them to you because I never looked at them again, but I knew what they were. And it tells me I had good goals because I actually— they, they were true ones. I mean, we all write down goals that we go like later on, no, you were bullshitting yourself, right? You were, you were just writing down what you think someone wanted you to say. And I— and, and, and this particular night, I And obviously wrote things down that were— had real— I mean, I told my future in a way.

Hmm.

Wow. I don't— trust me, when I write, every time I put a pen to paper, I'm not— I'm— I batted 1,000 on this one. Yeah, I went 10 for 10. I don't go 10 for 10 all the time, you know what I mean? But writing them down, the right ones, if I— and even without looking at it, I don't— I doubt I would have pulled these things off.

Um, How do we learn to listen to the true highest version of ourselves and write the right goals and, and follow that path?

Yeah.

As opposed to chasing the, you know, the stuff that leads to a lot of red lights.

Yeah.

And actually create a lane of green lights.

Yeah.

For us.

Yeah.

Obviously you had obstacles to overcome on this journey, and that's part of the human condition, but you actualized all these. How do we— how did you, you know, you were listening to yourself and you authentically said become a father, find and keep the woman for me, keep my relationship with God, and chase my best self as your first 4. You didn't say become a billionaire, you know, right, have 20 mansions, have 3, you know, Maseratis.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which is what you think a 20-year-old might— I mean, that's probably what I was thinking when I was 20, you know. It's like How did you think about these, you know, the first 4 and the 6th one, take more risks? It's like, stay close to mom and family. Then number 8 was a more material thing, win an Oscar. It wasn't win an Oscar first, right?

Right. Um, we gotta ask yourself what we, we all— I think we can all agree we all want more. We have dreams, we have goals. We gotta ask ourselves First, more what? And that starts, I think, by going and answering that question. What do I value the most? And so look at the things that you already got in your holster that you value, because you don't want to be reckless with those things and cast them off and let all the weeds grow around those. Then all of a sudden you can't even recognize that garden. So I think that the first things were about taking care of Things that I valued, they were very personal. They would take care of myself. They would take care of my mom, take care of the family, take care of my relationship with God. They were very, very, very personal things to me that I knew and believed would be lifelong maintenance journeys. And that things that I believed at that time that, no, taking care of those is never going to go out of style for you, bud. Pick out the things that are not the fads because we'll write things down. Those 3 Maseratis, Yeah. Hey man, you get 20 years from now, you may not like Maserati, you might like a Bugatti, you know what I mean? So, all right, Maserati, you know what I mean? Watch out what proper nouns we're using because they— some of them may be just fickle, you know what I mean? So those— the proper nouns: family, God, myself, Jay Self— those are things that I gave value to and gave me value and meaning in my life. And so I was like, I was already in the— I was already in the midst of those, and those are things I said, I'm not going to forgive these. And I'm not gonna— no matter who I become, I'm not gonna say, oh, these are no longer on my plate. I don't need to worry about these. Like you said, the Oscar, that's a new one. That's something that was out there.

That's big.

Um, becoming a father, that's out there. But since I was 8 years old, the one thing I knew I wanted to be was a father.

Wow.

Um, I knew I wanted to meet the right person, right woman for me. Didn't have her. Hadn't met her yet at that point. Far from it. Um, so start with the things that we got in our saddle that you do already give a shit about, that already give you meaning and value in your life, and double down on those. Project forward. And if that happens, what will— what would I dream of it to become? And then if you're going to talk about— I think when we're talking about a career, we got to ask ourselves first— I think this would be really valuable for everyone to ask yourself first— what do you have an innate ability for, an innate talent for? And what are you willing— is that the same thing you're willing to work your ass off for? And then thirdly, which is a little bit more of an asterisk, is that something that the world would demand?

Mm-hmm.

If we're going to go straight capitalism, mm-hmm, supply and demand. Mm-hmm. But we often look at things, and I've done it, I'll bust my hump for it, but I'm like, I'm really not that good at it. Mm-hmm. Okay. Or I've got something that sometimes we have things that we're really good at. We're like, I just, but I'm kind of just a natural. I don't want to work at it. If you can find something that you have an innate ability for, and we love doing things we have an innate ability for, right? We have an innate talent in our DNA for, and then go, now I'm ready to educate myself, learn, hustle, go after, see, create opportunities. Bam, bam. It's going to be in the prism of my, how I measure every situation where I am going. Forward. Hunt it down and do what you got to do to get better at it. And then if it's hopefully something that the world can demand, you're—

that's a sweet spot.

Now you're paying your rent, man. Now we got food on the table. Now, now we're rolling. Now we're waking up with some purpose. Now we're waking up with, um, you know, yeah, it's gonna be a hard day today, but I don't know, I can't— I'm not dreading Monday morning, you know.

Yeah.

Um, May want to sleep in, but I got— I'm building something. I'm building something here. I'm in construction.

One of the things that you, uh— I want to connect that to this thought here. 6:22, Matthew 6:22: If thine eye be single, the whole body will be full of light.

Yep.

I believe that's your favorite passage.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, you went on a journey, you know, after the— it was either in the middle or at the end of the tail end of your rom-com, you know. Stardom.

And you went to—

on a trip, went on a journey with yourself. Yeah, I think for 20, 22 days. Uh, in the Amazon.

Yeah.

And there was a moment in the book where you talk about essentially you had to kind of have a coming-to, you know, moment with yourself where you had to shed all the identities that you were holding on to— your rings, your heritage, your background, your clothes, your— I'm famous, I'm a rom-com guy, I'm an actor. I'm— you had to shed all of it. And what was the thing that you found when you let go of your identity in the outer world?

That I was a mammal. A mammal. And for me, as a believer, a child of God. That's it. Uh, baseline. And the mammal we can all agree on, right? The child of God, that was for me and any other believers, but the baseline— I got rid of— I remember my dad's ring, which had an M on it, gold melted down from my mom and dad's class rings, and gold from my mom's teeth. Meant a lot to me. Yeah, but it was an identity marker. I'm a McConaughey. This is about my dad. I had my American cap that I'd worn for 2 decades. I'm an American. I'm gonna get rid of that. Got rid of all these little talismans that were identities and titles that meant something. They weren't random. They were healthy ones. Yeah, but I stripped them all off and was like, bullcrap. No, you're not famous. And no, it's not. You were what before you were ever an actor. Before, what are you? What were you before you were McConaughey? Before you were Texan? Before you were an American? Before you were an actor? Before you were a movie star? Before you were a celebrity? But, well, come on, get it all off. And I— and it was a purge, basically. And I ended up— that was— there was a— I was a naked sweating mammal. I was like, you're a man, child of God, and that's what you are. So we've stripped off all the accoutrements, we've stripped off the ornaments, here we are. And that is the night that I was like— this happened a couple times in my life. And I think this is important for us all to do at some point. That's when I was like, okay, and what other truth do we know, McConaughey? Tell you what, another truth I'm realizing right now is that you're the only son of a bitch I can't get rid of. So we're going to duke it out for the rest of our life here, or we're going to figure out how to get along. Wow. What are we going to forgive? Right now. And what are we going to say? The buck stops here. No more. I'm not putting up with it because I'm tired of playing grab ass with yourself, Pagani. Cut the shit, man. Let's get along. I can't get rid of you. Everybody else, every other relationship out there is a choice. You're the one person I don't have a choice of hanging out with. So let's work this shit out. And just like going back and saying the embarrassment and shame turned into giggles, I began to go like, "Man, maybe you're being too hard on yourself on this thing. You know what? Get that monkey off your back. You're human, man. Forgive yourself. And these other things, dude, you've been a repeat offender. It hadn't been paying you back. You've been regretting that choice every time you make it and you keep fricking making it. Cut the shit, man. Evolve. Turn the fucking page. No more." And next morning, I remember even the Sherpas and stuff in Peru. I came out of the tent and they all started going, "La luz, la luz." Light. The light, light. And they were talking about me and the way I was moving.

Interesting.

And I went for a walk. And for the first time during that trip, I didn't give a damn about what was around the next corner.

You weren't thinking about the destination.

I wasn't thinking about the destination, getting to the Amazon. And now it's been 11 days. When are we going to get there? Mind you, this 11 days prior, I had not really been present in the trip because I was thinking about the result, getting to the destination so much. And then this morning after that night, I'm walking, I'm not even thinking about what's around the next corner. And when I did turn the corner, I was stopped by this sea of atomic plugged in neon blue, like a puddle, like a bubbling puddle in the middle of my jungle path. And it stopped me. And I looked at it. I've never seen colors this, this neon and bright. It was like it was not man-made. It was glowing. I'm completely sober this time. No ayahuasca, no peyote, nothing. This is straight-eyed, right? And it stopped me. And as I stared at it for about 30 seconds, all of a sudden it started to flutter and rise and dissipate. It was tens of thousands of these Amazonian butterflies.

Wow.

And I stayed there for a minute, and then this little word— words came into my brain from the Prime Mover that said All I want is what I can see, and what I can see is in front of me. I was free. I was light. It was magical. I walked. I turned the corner, went down the trail. There was the Amazon. I finally made it. Made it to the river. Right after that moment.

Wow.

Did not know if I was still days away, weeks away, what. Stuff like that happens. We got to listen.

Yeah.

Those are some of those truths that come that you go, nobody else was here to witness that. That was not for the whole class. That was not on the speaker. That was not on the bulletin. That was not on the nightly news. That was not even at church on Sunday with the congregation. That wasn't at school. That wasn't sitting around the dinner table with mom and dad learning lessons. It wasn't from a mentor. That was for me. In this moment, I must heed that truth.

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You've been on this journey of a lot of people seeing you on screen and your personalities on screen and your talent in characters. But now over the last 3 to 4 years, you've been revealing yourself more and more through your book, through all of your amazing content online, all the interviews you've been doing and all the solo content, which I think is amazing. Please keep doing that.

Thank you.

I think it's amazing, these lessons that you share. You know, the last story you just told, you know, had the entire room just like in awe and shock and just silent here as you were talking about this truth that you realized from within, essentially. Came through God, and you realized from within no one was around you. And I, and I mentioned this quote before that: if thine eye be single, thy whole body will be full of light.

Right.

Matthew 6:22. What does that mean to you? If thine eye be single, thy whole body will be full of light. And that light came to you in that moment, and these Sherpas were saying, you know, la luz, la luz. You were radiating light after this came to you. Why is this your favorite passage? And, and what does it mean for you? And how can we start to step into that?

So the mandorla— this is what the mandorla is. So we, we, we see— we're— we so often have seen life in contradictions, right? Future, the past, heaven, hell. Technology, culture, and we see them as contradictions. And when in truth, that's, that's two eyes, right? And there's judgment on either side. There's a duality there with the truth. Hmm. Is in that third eye.

Interesting.

Where they overlap. And that's not a shade. So we go, oh, that's a shade of gray. No, it's not a shade of gray. What the verse is saying. What I get from is that's where all the colors live, all the colors of the truth live. That passage, when I always tell myself, keep a high eye, it's keep the high eye, it's third eye. It shows up in all the religions too, shows up everywhere. Um, it, it's, it's a way of perceiving the truth, I think, which lives in the paradox. And paradox is a word that some people go, oh, don't get into paradox, that's too, I don't know, academic or whatever. No, paradox is where it's both are true. Two things could be true at the same time. It's today we could utilize it. It's like if I seek to understand you and where you're coming from first, I'm probably gonna— before I seek to be understood, we don't usually has to do with listening, has to do with how we see things. It's how, it's how we judge. Um, we very easy, and especially today, I think we love to be judge and jury on others and ourselves. It's a very arrogant thing for us to do. And this passage, if thy eye be single and not a dual contradiction and seeing the contradiction of things have gone, oh, this is true and that's true, and instead of or, right? There's— that's where the truth lives, I believe. Um, and it doesn't mean that you just straddle the fence and you're non-committal about anything, right? That's not what it means. It doesn't mean you're, you know, you're just Mr. In-Between, so that's true and that's true, it's all okay. No, you can then have judgment, but see both first. See the overlap of the truth and understand it from both sides, and then be understood, and you can then have judgment. But see it through that lens first. We just don't do it. We come in with one eye, or we— me, us versus them, me versus you, my idea versus yours, left versus right, Democrat versus Republican.

Even—

how far can you go? Can you go down to right versus wrong, good versus bad? I mean, we see them as contradictions, and they're not. We all know You know, we all got a little goodness, we all got a little badness. It's a choice we make where we then have judgment. So that passage has elevated my POV quite a bit. And it's one that I daily remind myself of. If I'm getting a low eye on somebody, if I'm condescending people, if I'm objectifying people, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hi, hi, buddy. Come on, open that third eye. You're not, it's not, it's not open. My kids can see it in my eyes when I'm talking to them.

Really?

If I'm talking at them, or if I stop and really look at them and maybe there's something, maybe it's a form of discipline. But then they can see if I'm looking at them like, I love you, man. This is why I'm trying to teach you this. All of a sudden they go, my son said it. I see you at therapy.

Bye.

Really? 6:22. I'm like, yeah, yeah. He's like, I heard you. I didn't hear you before when you were talking just at me, you know. So it's a great— it's a great reminder. Matthew 6:22. The whole body will be full of light, and you will move lightly and with discernment. Doesn't take away discernment, doesn't take away judgment. Just saying. See it through that lens first and understand that that truth is where those overlap. Yeah. And then make your decision. Wow.

I think it's beautiful that your— I believe it's your son that was born at 6:22.

6:22.

Crazy.

There's another one.

I'm all about the—

I'm all about the, the symbols and the signs and the synchronicities of life. And me and my girlfriend Martha, we talk about how, how impactful it is to listen and watch for the signals and signs and synchronicity. And, you know, and I think you would probably say that that might be a green light that you should be looking towards when you see those things kind of coming in your peripheral.

I think so. But let's talk about this because I was writing this yesterday. Seems our greatest strength is our greatest Achilles heel. And if you overcompensate for something that works for you, all of a sudden you go into this equal and same amount into the debit section. Meaning on this instance, if you're— we've all been there. If you're looking for the signal and the significance in every situation, you start creating ones that aren't real, making them up. It's like, well, you're getting stimulus from everywhere. Oh, that was a sign. Oh, that was a sign. Oh, and I remember writing this line about Everything has significance, but not everything is significant. Right? And so we have to watch that fine line of where do we intuit? Where do we feel a truth? But if we're, again, like we were talking earlier about finding Camila when I quit looking for her, if we're hunting for the significance in every single thing, it could be mental meditation. We can, the subplots become unmanageable.

Yes.

You know what I mean?

How do we know when it's significant, right?

Put it— can we put ourselves in that place to receive it, uh, and be aware to see it?

You got to be light.

You got to be light, and you got to be in a place where you can hear it, feel it, and see it. But if we're out there going, well, you know, we've all been there— look at that art, wow, that tree— you know, and all of a sudden you look up 3 hours later and you, you were on your way to the bathroom but you didn't move 6 inches because you were so Oh, wow. Wow. And that's— we've been around those people like, whoa, subplots are a little unmanageable, bro.

Yeah.

You know, at the same time, got to be open to that, that mystical math that comes to us because there's a metric to that mystical math. There's a metric to that spiritual, those gifts that come to us. We don't know how to put them in a category and go, there's how they're currency. There's the credits and debits. There's how they bring us ROI. And this is what they're worth. They don't come in numbers like that, but there is a real true valuable metric to them. And I think again, art of living, how are you aware to them, aware of them and be open to them and put yourself in a place so you can receive them at the same time, not go hunting them down in every single shape, size, and smell, because then you'll be just— you'll just spin in circles, you know?

Yeah.

And it's— that's an art, you know? And, and I don't know how to explain what that art is. Got times where I feel like I'm in the— people call it maybe the flow state, where you're kind of— intuition's right on time, man. I don't know what time it is, I don't even wear a watch, but I was right on time again, wasn't I? Whatever that is, you know, your reactions, you, you, you understand what someone's saying, even it's not what they're saying. You kind of come back, you see where they're coming from. You're taking care of yourself, but you're taking care of others at the same time. It's a wonderful flow.

Wow.

Um, and it starts, I think, a lot— a baseline for that would be to be in that position to see those mystical sort of, uh, gifts that come starts with gratitude.

Yes. I love in your acceptance speech, one of the first things you said was It's a scientific fact that gratitude reciprocates, pays back. I love that you said that in your speech, by the way. Thank you for putting that out in the world, because I feel like gratitude is the path, it's the doorway that opens to the pathway of abundance, of love, um, coming in and going out. Yes, it is, to light all these different things. And so it's the, the magnifier and the magnet. Yeah. To what you want in a conscious, healthy way. You can also magnify it in other unconscious, unhealthy ways, but I think that's what it does. So I'm so grateful that you said that, uh, on a big platform, a big stage, because I feel like when people see someone accomplish a big thing, a big award, or a big, you know, fame or success, they want that. But I'm glad you fed people the peas and carrots right away, right? And talked about gratitude. It's gratitude. It's gratitude. It's a scientific fact. When did you realize that gratitude was the key for you in opening up so many doors?

My mom was big on gratitude, and I mean, she instilled it in us at an early age. I remember it was, you know, you get up grumpy in the morning, you come into the kitchen from your bedroom for breakfast, and you wanted to sleep longer. You're kind of grumpy. And she'd see it the way we would walk. And if we were kind of, uh, she'd turn around from the kitchen making breakfast, goes, go back to your bed and don't get out of bed until you're ready to come in here and see the rose in the vase instead of the dust on the table. And you'd be like, oh geez, okay, yeah, I gotta go back. I rearranged. And she would preach just the very baseline basics, like, you, who do you think you are to think you were guaranteed the sun was gonna rise for you today? Geez, Mom. I remember, Mom, I got this old pair of snotty sneakers with holes in them and stuff. I need another pair of sneakers. Oh yeah, you think another pair of sneakers? Let me introduce you to the kid with no feet. Oh geez, Mom. You see, always like baseline sober to sup on stuff like that, right? So it started with the very baseline stuff. Now we get more affluent in life. We have things. I don't think we should take even those things for granted. But A lot of us are out there going, okay, I get that part, but how do we become thankful for more things we have around us in our life? I think that the more we give thanks for, we give more value to that thing or that person or that place or that instance. You give more value to it, it means more to us. If something means more to us, we tend it. We take care of it. When you take care of something, something grows. So it scales. So actually, gratitude is the root of generosity, coming in and going. And it's a self-serving thing. It's not just a selfless serving. It is self-serving. It is. I applaud that it is. And if you're going to give gratitude out for selfish reasons, I say, bravo. You know, because it will reciprocate the same way back out.

Yeah.

Um, it just, it, it, it, you know, in our foundation we have these young kids that we give them a safe place to go after school. They learn nutrition, uh, they make a physical goal and they do community service. These are Title I schools. And at the end of every one of those classes, they all have to sit around in a circle and share something out loud they're thankful for. And these are high school students. Ain't cool to say thank you for stuff in high school, right? Well, when they first started saying thank you, they were being like, um, I'm thankful for the Just Good Living Foundation. I'm thankful. And they all repeat themselves. You're like, no, no, no, no, no, guys. Y'all, y'all thinking, y'all feel like this is too serious. So one day it got to me and I was like, I'm thankful I got up and got a kiss from my wife this morning before I got outta bed. And they all started hooting and hawing.

Ooh.

And I was like, see, you can be thankful for fun stuff too. So they all started saying, thankful, thankful Halloween's coming. I'm thankful. I got, I'm, I'm looking It's so sharp. Everyone laughed. What that led to was then people started to feel free to go, I'm thankful my mom is out of the hospital. I'm thankful my sister got into that college. I'm thankful my dad got a job. And when we asked them, what's your favorite thing about the gratitude circle? This is the coolest answer. They started coming up to us and saying, well, my favorite thing about it is that I'm for the first time hearing peers of mine say thank you for something in their lives that I have in mind that I've always taken for granted. There's that reciprocity again.

Where do you think you would be if you had zero gratitude in your life?

Oh geez. Zero gratitude in life.

If you never expressed it, if you never experienced it. If you never talked about what you're grateful for?

How do you think?

I'd look a lot older. I'd feel a lot older. I'd have less energy. I'd be a cynic, which is a great disease of getting older that we all should stave off. You wouldn't wanna be hanging out with me, man. No, no, no, no, no, you wouldn't. I mean, I'd probably write about a lot of things.

Righteous, yeah.

And you'd be like, Good for him. I don't want to be around this, you know? Um, yeah.

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Do you think we can manifest abundance and the things we want, the goals we want, without gratitude? Is it possible?

Yeah, you— I mean, you can mathematically compound things that are technically good or should, should come in abundance, I think. But you're not going to enjoy it, right? Right, right.

That inner abundance won't be there.

It'll be a little antiseptic, right? It'll be all treble, no bass. It won't have much— won't have any feeling to it. I don't think you're going to be— why cheat yourself out on the, on the, on the, yeah, the great feeling of being thankful for something? It's, it's, it's there to be thankful for.

Yeah.

And again, I don't mean when I bring up earlier, be less impressed, more involved. I don't mean I don't mean that by, oh, disrespect. Don't be, because we have to be more than just happy to be here. We can't just all run around going, it's just so great. I'm just so happy to be alive. We want to be more than that. I mean, again, have some discernment. Make a choice. Have some identity. Define what you want more of and you want more value of in your life. And set goals and go after things. Create things. So we have to be more than just happy to be here. Yes, but that doesn't mean that if we are ambitious that we quit respecting and giving gratitude for the fact that I'm happy I'm here. I respect this situation. I respect the position I'm in, this table to talk to you, that we're here to talk to everyone here, set up the camera, that we're able to do this. I'm not in jail right now. There's a whole list of long things I'm happy I'm not, you know. We can, we can, that's, that's never, that never goes out of style to go, go underneath where we are to, to lesser, harder situations and just realize this is cool.

Yeah.

This is cool to be here. So what, so when we, when we do that, we're gonna give more, again, more meaning to this, more, uh, more value to it. I'm gonna be more generous. Gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna work not only for me, it's gonna work better for you. It's going to work better for you. It's going to work for all of us. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's the kind of epidemic we want.

It's a win-win-win.

Yeah.

Win for us, win for others in the world.

Gratitude epidemic is not being a delusional optimist.

Right.

And no, don't, don't be a fool. You know, I'm not running around going, no, nothing's ever hard. Everything's always great. No, it's not. You know, no, no, I'm always happy. No, you're not. Maybe you're not digging deep enough. If you're always happy, are you really chasing the things that have meaning in your life? Because things that have meaning take maintenance. They break down, right? It hurts. It sucks. We get bruised. We try to tickle, but we end up pinching. It doesn't always come and go, and it doesn't always, doesn't always work. It takes maintenance.

What's the thing you struggle with the most in your life right now after all this success? Outwardly.

Yeah.

All the, the, it's what seems like a lot of love, a lot of inner peace, a lot of family, community connection, service, impact now greater than just your talent and your on-screen, but also changing lives and touching people emotionally and spiritually with your, your message. What is your biggest struggle at this season of life?

Am I doing enough? And is what I'm doing, am I doing it the right way, the best way? Um, I, I need accomplishment for significance. Interesting. I wish you didn't as much. At the same time, like, glad you do need that. If you didn't have that, again, like the times I was talking earlier, being arrogant put me in situations to get humbled.

Sure, sure.

You know what I mean? If I didn't want accomplishment, I was I was like, well, okay, well, there's nothing wrong with that. But I, but I, I, I, I, you know, I say this, um, we talk about a midlife crisis, and then I heard there's this thing called quarter-life crisis. Now, okay, we're gonna 10-year-old, right? Whatever, whatever these crises are. The, the, the original one, which was kind of titled the midlife crisis, right? I think one, bravo. Way to go. You're, you're turning the page. You're wanting to do more. You want to find more, something different. Bravo. Way to make it hard on yourself at the right way, at the right time, after you usually have already accomplished quite a bit. But don't forget this. Let's go back to gratitude. And this is where a lot of people, I think, get hung up in the midlife crisis. Wanting to do more and something different, it's great. But not at the expense of disrespecting what you've already done. Right.

Not discounting what you've done.

No. And too many of us discount, oh, I've done nothing. Oh, that's not worth anything. Oh, what's the stuff I built? Eh. And when usually, no, that is something. No, that is something. And when I say give yourself credit for that, that doesn't mean trust that you're not gonna go, oh, okay then. Hmm. I actually don't wanna do more new stuff. I'm cool. It's not like you're gonna go just retire and go to the beach or play golf or quit doing anything. But it doesn't cancel that— your ambitions out. But we need to be more— give more respect to what we've already built. And then we'll take on our midlife crisis, which I'm going to reterm that something— crisis. I don't like the word crisis on that. But you're still ambitious. You can be ambitious and have an entrepreneur spirit to want to go change things in your life while still respecting. I think you actually think you'll find more and do more of what you want to do the, the best way for yourself when you do have a respect and a connection to your lineage of what you actually have built. And the credit— give yourself credit for what you have built to this point.

Yeah, yeah.

It's not cancel that out so I need to feel like I'm barren to go forward. No, that's going to help you stay— that this next story is connected to that one.

Sure.

All right, then it's not a new book, it's the same book, it's just a new chapter we're looking for, right? Those stories are connected. It's the same hardcover. We don't start over in our lives and start a new book. Start a new chapter, maybe. And those things that we like to tell ourselves, oh, it's a new chapter, they're usually just commas. Those things that we like to say, oh, it's the end of the book, it's usually just a period at the end of the paragraph. And those things that we go, no, it's a whole new means of communicating, it's a It's, it's, it's a new encyclopedia. No, it's just a new chapter in the same book. We only get one book, right?

But I got 3 final questions for you. Um, first one is about significance, because we mentioned significance, and everything has significance but not everything is significant. Yeah, I think is what you said. I'm going to butcher this, but it's something like 20 years ago, one of the things that most kids grew up wanting to be was like an astronaut. Now it's the number one thing is a YouTuber or like an influencer. And it just seems like the, the youth wants fame and success and influence more than ever before. And essentially wanting significance, right? Wanting to be significant and significance. Yeah. What is your thoughts on —fame, you know, having been famous for a long time now and experienced probably the, the juice of it, the pleasures of it, and also some of the stuff that's not so nice. Sure. What is your thoughts on fame that you want people to know, whether in their youth or at any stage of life, on what it is, what it isn't, and how to manage it when you got it?

Sure. Fame. Before you go, I want to be famous, which is a great ambition. Fun. I'm famous. I'm, I'm glad. It's, it's the access it's given me. Been— it's, it's, it's definitely in the black in my life. It comes with its harder and sure challenging things like loss of anonymity. I don't meet strangers anymore. Um, I do something, say something, it's out there. I can feel the energy of the world, whether it's pro or con, how they— what they think about it, whether it's true or whether it's not, whether it's completely— whether it's valid. Um, but don't say— before you say I want to be famous, that's fine, table that, scoot that over. For what? We all want to be relevant. I do. You better damn sure ask yourself, relevant for what? What do you want to do really well? What do you want to do? Do you have an innate ability for that? You're willing to work for that? Maybe you can become an expert on them. Maybe you can— maybe you're just really good at winging it. But what do you want to do that that, that could give you fame. But fame without, without a, um, an understanding of a structure, of a, of a competence, of a skill, in my experience, is, is a, is a real sort of vapid mirage of a movie target because there's, you know, the old word 15 minutes of fame. There are fads that come in and out all the time that are very seasonal. We could do heat-seeking chase them, and we do all the time. I got nothing against that, but understand that that may not be lasting. And, and when you are going to do something that you think, oh, this is going to get me more likes or give me some fame Just check in with yourself and go, well, if that goes out of fashion, or if in 10 years, as far as you can project, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, am I going to still feel like I will stand by that? Just, just, just, just measure yourself. Give yourself a little projection before you go, because we can do stuff right now to get famous that we will absolutely regret tomorrow. But tonight we gonna be famous, baby. Have a little sense of delayed gratification and project forward of what the possible consequences of what you're doing to get attention and fame will be. And bet on yourself. Just bet on yourself because the best way, if we can, is to build something and be competent at something where It's a, even if it goes outta style, it'll be looked back and like going, nope, that person did that really well. Mm-hmm. That's what they were known for. Right. And even though we don't do that anymore, things have changed or the medium has changed, when that was happening, that person did it, was doing it well. So ask that because we're tempted and we're rewarded for a lot of things that can make us famous that are gonna give us a proverbial hangover. One day. Check in with those things. Yeah. All right. It's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a slippery line. It's very tempting, but give yourself enough credit. Give yourself more credit to go, is this who I really am? This is who I want to be. Am I doing this because I love it and I'm good at it? Or am I doing this because I think it could get a lot of attention, even though I don't believe in it, even though I'm going to probably regret it. Deal with it later. Uh, don't— hold on, don't, don't, don't press in yet. Don't do it. Don't do it. Hang on. Um, time is more on your side than you think. Um, so just watch what you put out. And also, things was like— and I'm leaning back into social media— that we just— was simple reminders for all of us, adults and our children. Just remember, those things you say, those likes and those dislikes, they're gonna outlive you. They're gonna outlive me. They're gonna outlive all of us. They will be on our record. They will be on our great-great-great-great-great-great-grandchildren's records. Just think about it a little bit. Just have a little touch to take a little inventory before you go.

Yeah, right. And a follow-up to that, what's the number one skill you wish you would have either learned or mastered before, you know, becoming really famous? Uh, the number one skill to be able to manage it or, you know, navigate it.

That number one skill for me would have been— and I did learn this about 5 years in career. But preparation, um, I had a run earlier on my career where I thought I could just— I was better if I just winged it. Like, oh no, if I get prepared, I'm getting too mental, I'm thinking too much, I'm getting too Hamletian, I'm getting— no, no, no, I'm an instinct guy, all right? And I embarrassed it out of myself, um, in, in, in a movie, in a role. And I— one of the most regretful things I've ever done. It's so embarrassing. And I learned preparation on that day, and I still prepare. And I prepare so I can have freedom, so I can wing it, so I can throw— chunk the script away and go, let's dance, call audibles, game time. They didn't play the defense we thought they were, we're reading the defense, chunk the playbook, here's what we're running. Then it's really fun. Yeah, you know, but that comes— you can only do that if you prepared the right way. Your playbook or your roadmap, whatever it is. Um, and I didn't understand that early. Yeah, luckily I figured it out and I still got to work and got it.

Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, I've got two final, two final questions. That was a follow-up, so I'm adding two more real quick. Um, I want to acknowledge you, McConaughey, for not half-assing it. I know it's something that your dad talked about, is that, you know, if you're gonna go on this dream, this career, this path, yeah, Don't half-ass it. Um, and I love the, the nod you added at the end of your book about not half-assing it. So I really acknowledge you for not half-assing it in every stage and season of life that you've gone after. And I really acknowledge you for how you've been able to be successful and also have a really beautiful marriage and be a beautiful father. And I know you talk about how you have C's in lots of these areas you talked about, not A's. Yeah. But the fact that you keep living the way you do and showing up with your heart open-hearted in service to people, I really acknowledge that for you, Matthew, for, for your, your willingness to want to teach constantly and at the same time being a student.

Amen. Of life. Um, thank you. I'm trying, I'm trying. I said I ain't making A's and all, but I'm trying. As you know, part of that's the deal. If we can get the right playbook we can just keep getting back in the game each day. We ain't gonna get there. We ain't gonna get to the ta-da moment of, oh, I got it all figured out. That ain't happening. Sure. But if we can see how far along we can get while we're here, um, amen.

I asked you this question before, so these final two questions, I'll ask them quickly. Um, the first one is called my Three Truths question. I asked you this before. If people want to see what those are, we'll have linked up the previous interview. We can see and compare your last interview, what your three truths were, okay, to today, a couple years later. A lot has happened in the last couple years. And here's the question, um, you get to live as long as you want. You get to continue to create, make art, write books, do programs, movies, everything you want to do, you get to do forever, for as long as you live.

But then the lights go out at some point. Okay, when they do, not like— you're not saying like if you live forever?

No, no, you're going to live for as long as you want, you know, another 50, 100, whatever years. However long you can extend your life, then one day you got to turn off the lights. I'm pretty sure. Yeah. And, um, and you create and accomplish everything. Let's say you got another list of 20 goals that all happen, you know, just like you did in 1992. Yeah. But for whatever reason, all of your work, all the movies, books, content is gone. Gone. Hypothetical. Okay, gone. No one has access to it in this world anymore, ever, ever. But you get to leave behind 3 truths with the world. And this is all we would have of your wisdom and information. 3 lessons, 3 truths that you can—

rolling right now. We're not taking a timeout before this answer. I get to come back, write this one in on an email.

Oh my goodness. 3 truths, whatever is—

I answered this before last time. You did answer this before. Can you tell me what I said? I'll tell you afterwards.

Oh, jeez.

3 truths.

Whatever's on your heart or your mind right now.

3 truths. Um, um, um, when in doubt, make sense of humor your default emotion. Mm-hmm. Um, don't make a straight line crooked. And Loving your kids, mama, is one of the best things you can do as a parent.

Final question. What's your definition of greatness? Of greatness?

Greatness. Greatness par excellence. What is that greatness? Not perfection. Greatness. Pursuit, capture, and proof at the highest mortal level. Yeah, I like that one.

That's good.

What did I say? Can I remember that one?

Capture and proof at the highest mortal level. You want to say it one more time?

Yes. Pursuit, capture, and proof at the highest mortal level. Amen. I'll go with that. All right.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I wanna remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there.

And do something great.

Wow, you're still drinking soda?

Yeah, it's Zevia Creamy Root Beer.

Isn't soda full of sugar and bad shit?

Nah, Zevia doesn't have sugar or fake shit like other sodas. Okay, but does it taste like shit?

Here, try one.

Oh shit, this is delicious. Told you. Zevia. It's soda made better. No shit. Find Zevia Creamy Root Beer, Orange Creamsicle, and more flavors at your local grocery store.

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