The 'Afraid' Quarterback Who Won 4 Super Bowls Anyway | Terry Bradshaw

I never was supremely confident as a quarterback in the NFL. I always had fear.

Oh, you won 4 Super Bowls being afraid? Yeah.

I was always scared of losing. I just had these anxiety attacks and, and emotional breakdowns for no apparent reason to me.

3 divorces.

Get up.

Depression.

Get up.

Cancer twice in the same year.

Twice in the same year. Yeah.

He's a Pro Football Hall of Famer, 4-time Super Bowl champion, longtime host of NFL Fox Sunday, And author of the new memoir, Looking for Terry. That's Terry Bradshaw.

You won 4 Super Bowls. How could you have trouble? Well, I'm telling you, you didn't see it. I lived it. I took all the negative crap that I had to deal with and I turned it around and I used it to make me strong. But I don't give up. I keep clawing. I keep skimming. I'm down, but I'm not out.

What's your greatest fear moving forward? Wow. I—

that's—

When was the season of your life you were— and maybe it's now— but when is the season of your life you were the most confident in yourself? And when was the season of life where you were the least confident? Just as a human being, whether it's in all areas of life.

Well, the first thing comes to mind is the player. I never was supremely confident as a quarterback in the NFL.

Really?

I always had fear. I was always scared of losing. I hate that feeling. I mean, I watch these guys today. I watched the Peyton Mannings and the John Elways and the Staubachs that are just— you can just see it. You can see Joe Burrow in Cincinnati. You can see, uh, uh, Allen in Buffalo, uh, Matthew Stafford with the Rams. You can see, you just watch them. They They're just filled with confidence, and I was always afraid of losing. I just say to myself, you know, don't think I haven't had this conversation hundreds of times with myself. I lost my throwing motion because my confidence, and I went home and I tried to pick up and figure out how to. Rotate the football. I mean, I lost all of that. Really? I had to basically start over.

Interesting.

Yeah, and it was such a struggle. I worked on it my entire career. It was just in college, I just throw. The pros, I guess, for all the negative and and afraid to make mistakes, you. Internalize everything. I can't make a mistake here. I'm calling a pass. Oh, you got to complete this pass. If you don't complete this pass, then you might not be able to throw another, you know. It was crazy, man. I hate telling— you know what, I hate saying that because it's like, oh, come on, Dan, you, you did all these Super Bowls.

Yeah.

I'm proud of the fact that I had all these struggles and I've yet to play. You know, but God, I just—

What do you think? Where do you think you would have been had you had more confidence in yourself, even though you excelled so well? You won 4 Super Bowls being afraid, right? But where do you think you'd be if you were fearless and had all the confidence in the world like these guys today that you're talking about?

Well, I will say this: confidence as a player, or the guy that could handle the situation, I did get that. But I still struggled.

Yeah.

I, I threw with a finger on the tip of the ball, which is wrong. I tried everything in the world to get my hand off the tip because the more skin you have on a football, the better you'll throw it, the better you'll control it, and the more accurate it'll be. I knew that, but I practiced and I just— it would not— it didn't— if it had— if we'd have had quarterback clinics and quarterback gurus back in my day, I would have gone to them to change it and they could have helped me. And I'd have been so much more accurate, you know, and so much more control. And my, my whole process wasn't getting hit or reading coverages. Mine was when is the, is it, is the timing going to be right? Because I've thrown a ball in the Super Bowl XIV. I threw a pass to a guy wide open. That ball came out of my hand. Wah wah wah wah wah. Crazy. That shouldn't, that doesn't happen. That shouldn't happen. So it drives you— it just drove me nuts. But playing in big games, eh, it didn't bother me. I love— I know, even though I had my, my demons on the inside, you know, with control of the football. And I, I mean, I threw for over 300 yards in that game. So, wow. But I also threw 3 interceptions.

So what would you say is the season you've been most confident in your life? Is it When you're playing football at some point? Is it, you know, in the last 20 years? No, I—

that's— it's now.

Really?

It's now. I'm— when I quit playing football, I, I got a book coming out, Looking for Terry.

Yeah, right.

In that book, in that book, you, you go through everything you've asked me. We talked about things that I discuss, and I think I'm not the only one in the world. Millions of people are doing what I'm doing. And, uh, I'm good at talking, and I'm a good communicator. I know that. Now, I'm not bragging. I'm not being vain here. I mean, I am a— I, I love to tell stories.

Yep.

Um, I'm very honest. I'm very truthful. But that's why you say, but wait a minute, you, you won 4 Super Bowls. How could you have trouble? Well, I'm telling you, I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm just telling you You didn't see it, but I, I, I lived it.

You experienced it? Yeah.

Yes. Um, I never threw the ball in the NFL like I threw it in college. Never. Never. Um, I know that nobody else knows it. I'm just telling you.

Sure.

Yeah. And it got along pretty good. Yeah. It's like, as I told, uh, the quarterback for Oklahoma, John Lattier, he— they said, well, you got to improve your your completion percentage. You only completed 63% of your passes. I said, John, I completed 51.9% of my passes in the NFL.

Wow.

That's terrible. It's terrible. But right now, for sure, yeah, I'm doing exactly what God has prepared me to do, and that's talk.

Wow.

Talk, communicate, to share the good, the bad, the ugly, the beautiful, My wife gives me numbers because I talk so much, and I'm I'm a people person. I'm sure you are too. That's why you do this podcast. Is I love I love people. I can't meet somebody and not find something about them.

Yeah.

Grocery store. I don't care where I am. I I have to know something. Hey, how you doing? Good to see you. What's your name? And you know. Maybe you move on. Of course, you're always moving on. When I got diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis and you swell up, you're on steroids, you put on weight, and you're eating everything you can see. Well, I'm noticing I got these marks on my body, these fluid, because your socks cut your crease in. You got a big deep crease. So we're in Hawaii. We're at Kmart buying stuff for our house, and everybody, "Hey Terry, how you doing? Terry, how's it going?" Oh hey, hey, hey. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can tell I'm a little puffy, right? I put on a little weight, but I've got rheumatoid arthritis and I'm taking steroids and to find out what the blend's going to be. So I'm, you know, I'm overweight right now. Oh, okay. Well, good to see you. Good to see you, Mexico. Hey, Terry, how you doing? I'm doing pretty good. As you can tell, I've put on weight. I'm going through the same story. And my wife goes, honey, honey, honey, wait, wait, wait. What are you doing? What do you mean? What am I doing? I don't even know I'm doing it. You're telling everybody this. Hey, Tara, you're telling them you're you know you're on steroids. They don't care that you're on steroids. You're a puppy. They just recognize you. They're just trying to say hi. Get out. And I said, "Am I doing that?" That she said, "Yes." I said, "Oh, honey, I am so sorry. I will not do." Thank you so much for bringing that to my attention. We're getting in the car. We drive across the highway to a magnificent Target. This Kmart was that good, big. This Target's bigger, got more stuff. Yeah, we're over there. So we drive into the parking lot, go in, get our buggy, going down the aisle. Here comes this guy. Hey Terry, how you doing? How am I doing? Look, as you can tell, I'm, I'm a little puffy.

You did it again.

Oh. I've got rheumatoid arthritis, and they're trying to find the right blend. I'm embarrassed. I'm about 50 pounds heavy. And you know, and I—you ready for this? Can I stand up? Yeah. So I stand up, and I pull my pants up and push my sock down. And I went, and I went, look, look at the the the crease from the. And while I'm done, it hits me what I'm doing. Wow. I started laughing, man. I couldn't help myself. Like I'm doing right now. I'm embarrassed. And I just say, hey man, I'm just not doing good. And I looked at her, she's just shaking her head. And I just said, why you do that? Why do you do that? You know, now I can't say goodbye. I see somebody, we're talking. And so her deal is now, 3. And I'll keep talking, she'll go, 5. And that's goodbyes. That's how many goodbyes I've gone through and haven't goodbye'd.

You're like my— you're like my— yeah, my wife is like that.

Yeah, the other day she goes, 7.

Say goodbye 7 times and I'll leave it at that.

I just started laughing. They don't know what I'm laughing at. I'm laughing at her. She's, let's go. Funny. Oh, it's real funny. But that she gets a kick out of doing it.

My yeah, my wife from Mexico, her family, they say goodbye for like thirty minutes. Oh, and I'm like, you said goodbye, you hugged already, leave. You know, it's like, or don't say goodbye.

And I don't know why why we do that.

Who knows? I mean, I we don't want we don't want to leave. You know, we like having conversation. We yeah yeah. Something else.

He said, hi you hi hey didn't you how's your did you went on the fishing trip? How's that go? Oh really? You know, I went on. 3. Wow. No way. You still would— Sam still worked for you?

Really? You just keep going. Yeah.

Hey, it's actually— hey, but when I went down to my ankle, you started to realize. Yeah, yeah. Lewis, I broke up laughing like you've never seen in your life. It's embarrassing.

That's amazing. Well, at least you're aware of it though. That's good. If you got somebody to support you with that.

I know.

What is the difference between the persona that you've kind of created over the years versus what people really see behind the scenes?

There is definitely parts of your personality that you kind of push aside depending on what you're doing. You'll say, well, this, this is not going to work here. I don't want them to see this or whatever. I am— I'm an engaging, curious guy who likes to laugh, have fun, and I don't necessarily— I don't dislike it, but I don't necessarily get into the deep, dark stuff, which we all have.

Yeah.

So in doing interviews, My goal today with you or anybody that is interviewing me, I want to be this. I want this to be the most enjoyable interview you've ever had. I'm going to do everything I can to make this work. So that that is not pretending. That's that's real. But I think we all, Lewis. I think we all hold back. Some of us. I try. If you ask me a tough question, a personal, I'm going to answer it. I'm never going to tell you, um, I don't want to talk about that. I'm never going to be rude to you. I'm going to answer your question. And then later, after I see the interview, I may go, oh man, I wish I hadn't said that. Really? Oh yeah, I embarrass myself. I think sometimes my antics are a little silly, goofy. Where while I might think that I'm entertaining or being fun, and in some cases I am, in a lot of cases I am. Then in other times I'm like, you know, I wish I hadn't done that because I don't. I think that's one of the reasons I don't like to watch myself because I embarrass myself, you know. I embarrassed myself, and I don't mind that being me, what you're going to get, but I don't necessarily want to watch it.

Really?

Yeah.

Is there something where you feel maybe you feel embarrassed by watching yourself, or you feel shame, or you feel like—

Shame? Well, not shame. I'm a little embarrassed because you can be too much of anything. You can go over the top. You can— your personality. Since I'm— I don't call myself an alpha male, but I, I'm smart enough now in the job that I have not to be an alpha male. I, I am smart enough to drop down and let everybody else go and not try to say, oh yeah, let me tell you what happened to me and keep mine out of it. I enjoy that part of me. In other words, I don't have to dominate the conversation in a group of people. Like I told you earlier, I like to listen.

Yeah.

I like to be entertained. But I do— I am very much aware that my personality can wear people out. And I don't like that part of me. When I'm giving speeches, for instance, I love when I get on a roll. I love creating and making people laugh.

Yeah. You know, once you hear that first laugh, keeping it going, right?

That's right. Yeah, it inspires you. I had a, I had a boss one time tell me, you can't be funny on TV. You're going to lose your credibility. And I remember telling him, how am I going to lose my credibility? I won 4 Super Bowls. They're going to take them away?

Right.

And I think what the point is, if you're in a leadership position, you're not supposed to be funny. You're not supposed to be engaging. You're supposed to be serious, serious, serious. And I can be serious. And I am serious, and I don't have a problem with that. It's just that I prefer that part of my life not, you know, in my business with my horses and my cattle and my speed. I'm serious, but at the same time, I'm engaging, you know, with the people I work with, the people that come to buy stuff from us. I'm engaging. I want them to feel welcome. I want them to feel at ease. And I think A warm personality and a warm smile and a chuckle here and there. I think that's good business. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I was getting to connect with you and your wife just behind the scenes for a little bit before this. And you've been how long you've been with your wife for now?

Twenty two, twenty three years. Twenty three years. Twenty three years.

I'm curious. What is the thing that you love the most about your wife that has made the greatest impact in your life in the last twenty three years?

Okay, let me tell you this. Let me just say this. to everybody. I am a product of 3 divorces. Okay? Am I proud of that? Absolutely not. Now, you said ashamed earlier. I am ashamed that I've been divorced 3 times or once or twice, whatever.

Yeah.

That is not something certainly that I'm proud— that I'm proud of. I grew up in a Baptist family. Christian family, you get married once. Okay. I got divorced, and I'll never forget my preacher telling me I was going to hell. Really?

Yes. That doesn't feel good.

No, it did not. So I never went back to that church. Yeah. It's not that I was looking for someone to say it's okay to get divorced. I wasn't trying to find someone that agreed with me. I just didn't think, according to my study of the scriptures, that I was going to hell because God will forgive you, right? Yes. But I'm not proud of it. Now here's the the thing I am proud of. If this makes sense, it does to me. Maybe not to our viewer. Is that once I got divorced a third time, it finally dawned on me. It's not them. No, it's not the the people you're not the women. Yeah, yeah. It's me. Interesting. Now why am I marrying? The same woman 3 times. So I went about finding out why. And once I, once I believed I understood why and was— and realized that in counseling I needed to break the cycle.

What was that cycle?

All the 3 women were all alike. Nothing wrong with that. It just wasn't for me.

And it wasn't about them. It was about What you were choosing.

Me.

Yeah, yeah.

Me.

Yeah.

And I had to learn about me.

Interesting.

All right, I had this— I had to look into a mirror. I used to use this in speeches, and I do, and when I get to thinking about it, it doesn't really apply. And it makes sense. I call it mirror economics, but it's really mirror evaluation, where you honestly are in a room by yourself All right. And you're looking at a mirror. Nobody in there but you in that mirror. Now, what do you see? Let's go. So you start talking to yourself. Oh, my right ear is bigger than my left ear. I got some stuff. I got a big stomach. My eyes are deep set. I'm a little bit bowlegged. I'm this, I'm that, I'm this, I'm that. Physically, I'm just— I am going through Everything about me, but this is good. I have a nice kneecap, or I got nice legs. My wife's always so boy, you have great legs. Okay. Oh, I do have. I got nice legs. So you good and bad, but you're brutally honest. Brutally honest. Now, how important is take? How important is it to me to take the negatives and try to make them a positive? I know I got the good stuff. Now I got to work on the bad stuff, and I think through counseling and going to counseling, I am attracted. Basically, I don't want to say this wrong because I'm married to an awesome woman who I love madly, but I was attracted to the wrong thing. The wrong thing appealed to me. Yeah, deep inside, it was the wrong thing. No, nothing against the women. Yes, absolutely nothing against them. It's me. And that's okay. At least I know now. And what I needed was what I have. And it took me a while to figure it out. I needed a friend. I needed someone that I wanted to spend all my time with. Yeah. Can you imagine? Yeah. Yeah. Spend all your time with a woman. All the time.

Mm-hmm.

I needed someone that I could talk to who didn't judge me.

Interesting.

And ridicule me. And I needed a woman that made an effort to study and understand me and not take face value and then take the negative and go, well, I can't handle this. Instead saying, why is he acting like that? Why is he this? Why is he that? Is this— is this a deal breaker? Okay, let's talk about it. My wife makes me talk about stuff I don't want to talk about. A lot of men don't want to talk about a lot of stuff. I didn't want to talk about it. And then finally I'll go, okay, all right, here's the deal. And I dump it out and she'll say, okay, all right. And then we talk about it. Yeah, I met, fell in love with my buddy. Now here's the great thing about my wife. I couldn't do the normal Courting thing took me over a year, year and a half to tell her I loved her. I wasn't about to tell her I loved her. Yeah, because you want to— wasn't about to do that. No.

But to answer your question, the thing you love most about her?

Yeah, the most I love about her is that she's such an awesome lady in every aspect. She's being a Christian. She loves She loves our Lord, which is awesome. She loves her kids. She loves my kids. My kids put her through hell, really, and she's right there for them. Boy, wow! Yeah, those daddy daughters. Nobody's good enough for my daddy. Wow! Yeah, and she's right there. It's just, you know, I God finally gave me my match. And you know what's great? You know what's great, Lewis? I don't ever get. I don't ever. Ever get mad at her, disagree with her. Occasionally have raised my voice and immediately, but nothing's nothing has ever happened where I say I got to get out of this. No, I'm not. I'm not going for this. Nah, you know what? Okay, great. But she I mean she's my best friend. I never thought I'd say this ever in my life. Who's my favorite golf partner? She is. Well, I don't play golf without her. Wow, really? No, I will play. I haven't played a round of golf in probably 12, 14 years that she's not there.

Really? You don't go do like a guys trip or guys golf?

Well, no, no guys trips. I don't want a guys trip, right?

I mean like a golf charity event. Let me tell you something.

Yeah, I— let me tell you about a guy trip. All right, you got a great marriage, okay? So we've been married 5 years, 6 years. Everything's great. So this one morning, I wake up early, I make coffee, I get dressed, I go in to tell her, you know, I'm leaving. She says, where are you going? I said, well, I'm going to run over to so-and-so. He's got a horse I want to look at. Then I'm going over to so-and-so. They got a baby out of one of our studs. I'm gonna go check on that. Then I'm gonna run by Mike's, and then, and then I'll be back this afternoon. So she goes, well, wait, I'll get dressed and go with you. I said, no, no, I want to go by myself.

Broke her heart.

So I kiss her and I go and get in my truck and it bothered me.

Mm-hmm.

I get in, I crank up, I go outside the ranch gates. Down, I get on the highway and I'm driving, and I can't stop thinking I hurt her. I exited, turned around, went back. Couldn't do it. Wow. And I've never—I will never do that again. Wow. Why didn't I? What was I wanting? My man time? Right, right, right. I don't—I don't know. I don't want man time. I—I—I. I like it. I like we time. Uh-huh. I don't fly anywhere without her.

Wow.

I go nowhere without her. Nowhere.

Wow.

Every trip I'm on, she's on.

Every work trip she comes?

Every work trip. She— I turned all our businesses over to her because she's— she wanted to be a doctor. She's a radiologist, so she's a very smart lady. And she is super smart.

Wow.

And loving and kind.

Wow.

And I mean, she's my angel. I mean, I'm, I'm a lucky dude.

What is the biggest lesson she's taught you over the last 23 years of marriage?

This is the first thing that came to my mind, and it's true. She just said it's okay to say no. And you just said a while ago, you're a people pleaser. Oh man, I don't want to do that, but he's a buddy. Yeah, you know, I don't want to do that. Oh, I did that 2 years ago and didn't enjoy it. So she said she is She has taught me it's okay to say no. I would say it's okay to say no. Yeah, don't worry about hurting people's feelings. And if you hurt their feelings, you know, that's okay. Yeah, it's okay. And then you're happy. Why should I be unhappy but you're happy, right? Why not let me be happy? So I think saying no, but I say no through her. Yeah, you know, if you mean, hey, Hey Lewis, would you go tell so-and-so? Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

Excuse me while I go.

Yeah. So she protects your energy. That's great. That's great.

Yeah. And she, you know what? She's good at it. Yeah.

At work, greatness sometimes starts with a pile of meeting notes here, follow-up questions there. But that's okay because ChatGPT Work, a new way to work in ChatGPT, can organize multi-step projects and help you make progress while staying in control. ChatGPT Work can use your apps, connected tools, and files to create things like landing pages, trackers, internal tools, even web apps. Say your team has a new product concept. Use ChatGPT Work to review customer feedback, pull themes, and draft a prototype. Maybe there's a planning doc that ChatGPT Work can organize into owners' next steps, And a shareable status update. Make it even more specialized by installing specific plugins like Google Drive or Microsoft Teams. The big picture? ChatGPT Work helps you get unstuck between thinking about your work and actually making progress on it. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode. Available on Plus and Pro plans. I had a lot of people pleaser in me growing up. I was also very driven as an athlete. I played football as well, and I was never half as good as you. I didn't win any Super Bowls or anything like that, but I felt driven to achieve, to accomplish. And I also felt very insecure growing up, like I wasn't smart in school.

Right.

And didn't feel like I had a lot of friends growing up until later years.

Right.

So I kind of brought on this persona of like, I need everyone to like me, or I want to please people. I don't want to say no. I don't want to hurt people, things like that. And it got me feeling very resentful over many years, resentful of myself, resentful of others. And I wouldn't say I went into a depression, but I definitely felt a lot of negative thinking for a long time. And I felt like I had a lot of suffering mentally and emotionally because of it until I learned how to You know, do my own mirror test, right? Start reflecting, start healing some of that. And then I created a lot more peace within myself.

Well, you get a lot of guilt because people throw a lot of guilt on you.

Yeah.

What do you mean? I received it. People put you in a position and you'll be happy with me, but I'm going to be miserable. Yeah. And sometimes it's like, everybody knows this. Look, if they don't like it, get over it. You know, they're not your friend anyway. We— none of us have a lot of friends. None of us. None of us. Even family is not friendly. And I think that's hard to deal with, especially if you're a kind-hearted, gentle giver who loves to make everybody feel good and happy and so on and so forth. That when you say Something negative. They go, "Well, how could you think of? They thought the world of you." My mother, when she died, I didn't I didn't shed a tear. Now you don't think that in that still bothers me. Why? When my dog died, James died, and I picked his casket up at the vet when I came off the plane and took it and put it in the back seat. And I got in the car, Tammy's sitting there, and I just started. Bawling uncontrollably over a dog. All right, my mind will not let that event leave. Nobody did more for their mother. Nobody put up more from their mother. Nobody Tried to make her life better than I did, and nobody in our family was abused as much as verbally as I was. Wow! And and I think when my mother died, it was like, well, now I don't have to worry about why haven't you called? Where da da da da? And and I just don't need that. Well, I travel. Why hadn't seen you? And da da. Well, I'm gone all the time. Well, you just need to stay home. You don't need to be traveling that much. Well, I wanted to say, well, I got to travel that much because I got to make this money to pay for that house I just built you or buy that Mercedes-Benz I just— I got to pay for all this stuff. I didn't say that.

Right.

But you say it now.

You had the resentment in you though.

It pissed me off. Yeah. Why don't you just appreciate, appreciate what I'm, what I'm, what I'm doing? I love you to death. That hasn't changed. But I don't know. I know. I don't know. I haven't talked to a counselor about it, but it has. But now the wife has certainly tried to help me with it. Sure. But when James, a dog, died, a dog, and I boo-hooed. And you know what it was? You know what I came to the conclusion? What's that? That dog was so sweet to me. That dog was so loving. That dog was so kind. And I had nothing but love from that little puppy. I think love and kindness is what triggers me. That's why as a football player, Lewis, my coach was hard on me. I didn't like him.

Talking about high school coach or college?

High school coach. Nah, that high school, they didn't give me a— high school was fine. Coaches were fine. They never screamed. They never belittled me or anything. College, I got nothing but love in college. My coach at the college was the guy that made me great.

Wow.

He was the one that lifted me up. You're the best. You're the best. You're the best. You don't worry about that. Don't worry about that. Don't care what they said. I'm telling you, you could do things. And I'm just sitting there next to him, you know, I believe him.

Wow.

And he elevated me and I If you're nice to me, kind to me, and I think anybody out there will say this, I'll do pretty much whatever I can for you.

Which coaches were the ones that were— that berated you? Was it once you got to the pros, they were on top of you?

On top of me? Chuck was the worst. People didn't necessarily see it, but I spent all my time with him and, um, he was tough. He never gave me, he never gave me confidence. He never, I never felt that he cared for me at all. Now, Mary Ann, his wife, might say, oh, you should have heard all the wonderful things. Well, that's great. He told you, he didn't tell me. Yeah. I, you know, stopped me going through a hallway right before we go out on the field to play the Cleveland Browns. I'll never forget it. And he stopped me, put his hands on me. He said, you played bad in the first quarter. I'm pulling you. Okay, that's great. Thank you. I appreciate that. Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna run through a wall for you.

Yeah.

You know, just, uh, I don't understand it. I played well, but you know, I think Staubach and Landry may have been that way because I get these coaches don't want to get close to the players necessarily, or at least let you know it, because one day they got to tell you, hey, You're out of here.

Yeah, we got to take care of you.

I get that. I understand that. But as the quarterback, I didn't need the negatives. Yeah. You know, I want— defend me if they talking bad about me and I'm your guy. Defend me, you know? Yeah. But I had to— what I'm— if you're ever going to ask me in this interview, what are you most proud of, your accomplishments? My most proud of is this. That I took all the negative crap that I had to deal with, and I turned it around, and I used it to make me strong. I turned it to make me strong, to make me okay. That's the way you feel. You know, I'm not going to say this here, but I had some that's some choice words for those. Sure. And I'll show you. And I put up a wall, and I'm proud of the fact, and I know how to put the wall up today. You know, you're not going to hurt me. You're not going to get to me. You know, try it. Do what you say, what you want to say. I really don't care. And I really don't care. At 78 years of age, I really don't care.

Yeah. Now I'm curious about this. You've already been open about this. One of the things I was telling you before we started rolling is that 2003 or 2004, you opened up about depression on TV.

Right.

And there was no one really opening up about any of this stuff. Mental health, depression, sexual abuse. None of that stuff was being talked about in 2003, 2004. And it really wasn't until the last 8 years where more kind of male athletes were opening up about the different problems they were facing personally. Right. Right. And so first off, I want to acknowledge you for leading the way, because I know it takes— even though maybe it didn't feel like it was courageous for you, someone, whoever starts opening up about something that's never been done before, they're the ones who lead the way. They're the ones who get the most, you know, not retaliation, but get made fun of the most. They get, you know, talked about in a weird way the most.

Exactly.

And I know you got made fun of by other guys who weren't really accepting of you opening up about depression. So I want to acknowledge you, Terry, for leading the way for all of us men.

Well, I didn't know I was leading the way.

Right.

You know, the reason I even got diagnosed Um, it's just the fact that I've just had these, these anxiety attacks and, and emotional breakdowns for no apparent reason to me.

Where do you think that was coming from, man?

It may have— I, I— they were tracing me all the way back to childhood, and that could have been part of it, you know, where you were I was told, you know, my mother said, you'll never amount to shit. Really? Your mom said that? My mom. Wow. I never forgot that. Wow. Never. I even told her. Yeah.

How old were you when she said that?

Probably 8.

She said you'd never amount to anything?

Yeah. Really? Yeah. Kids don't forget that. That's painful. Yeah, it's painful. Especially from your mom or from a friend, from anyone. And I think I wasn't a great student, but I did— I wanted to be a good student, but I wasn't a great student. I couldn't understand why I couldn't focus. I couldn't— I could not understand why I struggled in certain classes. I couldn't understand. I knew to get anywhere in my life with my dreams of playing in the NFL, I had to go to college.

Yeah.

Just bury it and you question yourself. And my whole life I just, I did all that. And I didn't find out about ADHD or ADD until after I retired from football. And I just could not, it just had piled up on me. And I finally started thinking, and something's wrong.

Hmm.

And so I spent 3 days of testing. And they put me on basically ADD medicine. I didn't like that.

Yeah.

But I did explain them, counseling explains it. And you're like, oh man, I'm really glad to know I have this because now it explains that.

So you were actually relieved when you learned about it?

Oh yeah. It's like, it's like when you learn you've got something that's a negative, you've got to, you've got to find out what's going to— what's the answer to the negative? One, why did I get it? How do I get over it? It's like when I got cancer. Okay, I got cancer. All right. It can kill me. So what can I do? All right. What caused it? Well, we don't know what caused it, you know, but you get all the information you can get. And so after the ADD diagnosis, it was a few years later that it just kept travel and travel, emotional breakdowns, miserable, sick. Depression is a sickness, man. Well, I listen. I don't wish it on anybody because it comes in this— it's the thief in the night. And so you get ADD and you find out, okay, this is why I struggled in school. You can't focus. It's not my fault. It's up here. They don't cross over. And you're going, okay, but I was good at football. Oh, I loved football. I didn't love algebra. No, not me either. Trigonometry, I loved. But what I loved, I was good at. So I could— you could override this, something you love, something that was fun. Yeah. But things I had to— things that I wasn't interested in and didn't care was the struggle. And I just could not Put my finger on, and I knew I had to be good. And you ever you ever done you ever read a you ever read a paragraph and then go what did I just read this oh yeah pages read it again read paragraph again but that just do this and read it again what's it saying and then go let me focus yeah that was my whole childhood yeah and then you go okay. That was me. You know, I still do that. I'll be on the plane studying for the Fox show, and I'll have to reread this stuff 3 or 4 times because it, it doesn't lock. The depression was later, and it was just— I couldn't— Depression, it's triggered by certain things in your life. It could be divorce, could be illness, could be death in your family, whatever. Everybody goes through it. Some of us, it's there, you know, and then when we had these events in our life, it's devastating.

Wow.

And so I couldn't get the answers. I thought it was the ADD that was making me miserable, but I'd been to counseling on that, so I understood the ADD. I was fine with that. You know, one of the reasons I hated doing football games is because I couldn't remember names and numbers. What do you do if you're an announcer in the booth? You got number 26 just made a great tackle and you got to go, 26. What's his name? Yeah, you should know that. When they put me in the studio, I was the happiest guy in the world. I didn't have to know that. Yeah. Unless I wanted to. Yeah. So, but the depression thing. Well, you just didn't. You're sitting there, Lewis, and you're going, Golly, I've had this for a long time and never paid any attention. I just thought it was all part of the ADD. And when I— the first signs of it, I didn't know what to do. I was a little— I didn't know who I could talk to. I didn't know. So first thing I thought, well, my preacher's a good friend. I'll go talk to my preacher about this. So I go talk to him.

What do you say?

And this went on for weeks, me and him talking. Finally, he said, "This is a little bit more than than I can handle. I need to send you to a family counselor, a psychiatrist." I said, "Okay." So he he found a good one for me. So I started seeing her. What does she say? Well, she said, "This is a little above little above everyone." Yeah, ended up with a psychologist.

And what did they say?

Well, they pretty much what the psychiatrist had acknowledged, but they put me on some medicine, which, you know, I still take to this day. But the greatest thing about the depression is that I went through 3 years of counseling. To understand once again, it's three divorces, losing your confidence as a quarterback. Hey, I go through all these events in my life where why wasn't I superior? Why wasn't I? Why wasn't I like here? Why wasn't I like this guy? Why wasn't I like this guy? Why wasn't I like him? Why weren't I? Why why am I not so like you've talked to already supremely confident? So why am I not this? Why do people not? Why am I made fun of? Why is this? I mean, why, why, why, why? And it drives you friggin crazy, crazy. So when I went to see the counselor, that was just like the greatest thing in the world. Wow. Because now you know what I'm doing? I'm dealing with me. I worked on me. And understood the depression, understood how it— what triggered it. Now, sometimes it— if I'm just tired, it— if I'm just tired, it comes on naturally. And I'm lucky that my wife, who's in the other room, she'll see me sitting by myself on the porch and she knows, here we go. And she'll come out and she'll say, what can I do for you?

Mm-hmm.

And sometimes I can talk and sometimes I can't. But it doesn't— she doesn't— you know, it crests and then goes away. And I, I know how to deal with it. And, and the best way is just talk about it. Yeah, just feel it out. And that's what's so great about Tammy. Hey, babe, I'm having a hard time with this. And then, you know, you know, the It's okay to be depressed. It's okay. That's just the way it is. Depression doesn't steal your personality because people will say, well, you're funny. You're always laughing. Well, yeah, it's showtime. I'm on to perform. There have been speeches I've been given and something will hit me in the middle of the speech in front of hundreds, if not thousands of people, and I'll have to turn my back on the audience because I'm blown.

Really?

I've just lost it. Just lost it. It's bizarre, but it's okay. I learned that it's okay. It's okay. We're going to deal with this and it's okay.

Yeah.

It's not a bad guy.

Yeah. Something about— I like in your book, you share a lot of these stories. There's a lot of humor in it as well. It's called Looking for Terry. I want you guys to check this out, but there is a quote towards the end that I really like that you address. And it says, it turned out the key to my success in life was the same as it was on the gridiron. When I got hit, I got up. And I wanted to ask you about this, you know, 3 divorces.

Get up.

Depression.

Get up.

Cancer twice in the same year.

Same year. Yeah.

Having to reinvent yourself, you know, being the 4-time Super Bowl champ, but then retiring, but then getting in the Hall of Fame, but then who am I, identity shifting, all these different things like depression, divorces, new relationship, divorce, all these different things. It's a roller coaster of emotions.

Right.

And something you mentioned earlier is, you know, you grew up very Christian in your relationship with God. I'm curious, How has your relationship with your faith, with God, evolved through all these different challenges, all the different suffering, the depression, the cancer?

Oh, what was I, someone that said, God, why me?

I'm just curious.

Why me?

Yeah, what—

I never cursed God. I've already told you. Why should I not have these problems? Because I'm Terry Bradshaw, a Fox guy, a guy on television, a guy that won Super Bowls? What makes me so better than you or anybody else? I'm not better than anybody. I, I've accomplished certain things and I'm proud of that. I want you to be proud with me, but that doesn't make me better than— why? I'm not better than you. I don't— I, I would never think that.

Yeah.

You may treat me differently because of some of the things I've done. I don't deserve that. Um, I've had— I've gone to the front of the line Um, I did it Sunday after the show because they had ice cream. Yeah. And there were 20 people in line. I just went right up to the front and got ice cream because I'm Terry Bradshaw. Yeah, right. Yeah. And I had to go and watch the game. And everybody— I know everybody, and they all go, go, go, you know. So I— but I don't, I don't take advantage of that. I never have.

I guess my question is, how has your relationship changed, evolved with your faith in God through the challenges? You personally with God, has it shifted? Do you feel stronger? Do you feel less connected?

No, no, I feel definitely stronger. Absolutely.

Why is that?

Look, well, first of all, I'm a Christian, so I believe that Christ is the Savior. Okay? And I've accepted that. Yeah. And I believe that. So I'm never going to question that. Never going to doubt it. You have your faith. I have mine. You asked me. I just told you why. When I have had bad things, I've never questioned God. I've just actually—I'll open a day up. Lord, thank you for whatever's going to happen to me today. Whatever is presented to me today, it's all good. Yeah. My relationship with God has not changed; it's only gotten better. That's good.

Why is that? Why wouldn't it be?

I don't question. I don't doubt what happens to me in my life. This is this is I believe God created me. And I believe that he has set a path for me. I think that there, there are— he presents situations to me, see how I handle them. Most time I don't handle them well. I'm not going to lie to you. I'm not perfect. That's why I have to pray for forgiveness.

You can't be nice 100% of the time. You can't.

You'll go nuts. Yeah. And so my My faith is— look, I'm in the middle of the stretch. I'm getting closer to the end now. When is that? My wife says, shut up, don't talk like that. But look, when you're 78, your brain does that for you.

Really?

You'll see. You will think more about life after death. You'll think more about your relationships. So you'll be— you'll think about things that you have. You'll ask yourself, why am I thinking that? And if you really sit down and analyze yourself, you'll find out, yeah, I want to make sure— I want to make sure that everything's in good shape soon. I'm— my wife runs all our businesses. My wife handles all our money. I want her to know every penny we have, every investment we have. Every insurance policy we have, where everything goes, what everything does, so that when God calls me home, she doesn't have to go, oh, I gotta get attorney. Oh, she already knows. Yeah, all of that pressure's taken away from her. Well, you know, and I did. And I think for anybody out there, make sure your house is in order. You don't want to leave your wife scrambling and, oh, I didn't know that was going to happen. I didn't know this or that. No, everything is there. It's laid out.

Wow.

And but I don't ever question God. I don't have a problem with cancer. I don't— the way I looked at it was, if I die, I'm going to heaven. I believe there's a heaven. And if I don't die, I get to stay with my wife and my family. I got 3 girls. Yeah. So it's good.

Good. Yeah. I don't want—

I'm, you know, I'm not ready to go. I mean, there's But if I'm called—

Wow.

You know, and I don't know, you ever thought about— you ever asked yourself, okay, here I am laying on my deathbed and I know I'm dying. What are you going to be thinking? What are you going to be thinking? Are you going to be thinking about your wife and your kids? Are you going to be thinking about, hey, you'll be thinking, am I going to heaven? Do I believe in heaven? You're going to be asking yourself questions like that. You know, it's just like that's some scary stuff. Yeah, scary to me, man. Sorry. No, it's okay.

No, yeah, I am. If you could, I've got a few final questions. Yeah, this has been really powerful, Terry. I appreciate you opening up like this. Yes. If you could go back to my age, I'm 43. Right, 43. Yeah. Knowing everything you know in the last, you know, almost I guess 35 years. From 43 to where you are now, right? If you could give advice to that, that younger Terry about what's about to happen, what advice would he give you?

Oh, you know what? There are several things I could say to him. Number one, have you reached your full potential? And if you haven't, why? Why? Well, are you, are you doing something in your life that's making you unhappy, but you're being rewarded financially? Is that really something you should continue doing?

Interesting.

Are you being good? There's a, there's a blessing in life for being good. That's overwhelming. I'm a good guy. I know I'm a good guy. I treat people with respect. Everybody I treat with respect makes me feel good. Can you say that? You know, Are you happy? Are you happy? Okay, do the mirror thing. Ask yourself, why am I not happy? And be brutally honest. Pursue that journey to happiness. And if you've got the wife and the kids, they'll be happy for you and they'll go on it with you, man, gladly. So those are just 4 little—

Yeah, it's great.

Nothings, really. I can't imagine. I can't imagine not waking up tomorrow morning, not knowing what I'm doing. That's the exciting thing about life. I got a plan, you know, and and nothing I like more than getting in bed with my wife, snuggling up, and we put on these shows that nobody understands why we watch them. I mean, we watch— I, I can, I can solve more murder cases than anybody. I mean, we've watched so many of those shows. And then I've watched shows that she likes that I didn't want to like, but I like. And that's our— and we love— and, and we got the dogs there. And I mean, is there anything greater? Now, I can only think of things greater is with— you had kids and they'd come running, Mommy, Mommy, Daddy, Daddy, and they'd jump in bed. You know, and oh man, there's nothing can take the place of that. Yeah, that is your note. Yeah, man, and they reach for you like you were saying. Nothing like that. But I just think, I, I just think people sometimes get confused that if they have a lot of money that they'll be happy. And we all know that there's too many billionaires committing suicide. Yeah, so it's, that's not their loss. They're lost. They don't have— they have— there's a big difference between happiness and joy. When you have happiness, it's like, I'm enjoying meeting you today. I'm enjoying doing this. This makes me so happy. But this can be changed by you saying something right now that's not nice and being cruel or something. You could ask something. You could even make a comment. Now, I probably wouldn't respond to it. You would know I'm not, but I'd leave here. I would not be happy.

Yeah, yeah.

But joy, I'm not fazed by joy. Joy is a very— it's flatline.

Yeah.

It's just nothing bothers joy.

Yeah.

It's buried in that soul and it's there forever and it's great. But happiness is like this, man. I mean, by the time I leave here and get to where I've got to go next, we may have a flat tire. I am not going to be happy, right? You know, because I'm gonna miss the next engagement, whatever it is I got to do. But if you're, if you're at total peace with your life and you've got a plan for your life and you're a good person and you're pursuing your dreams, God bless you, man. That is the best. Don't waste your life.

Absolutely. You know what? I got a couple of final questions for you, Terry, but I want people to get your book, Looking for Terry. It's a memoir and it's got a lot of amazing stories and lessons in here. That's going to bring a lot of people inspiration, joy, and a lot of fun as well. Here's a question I like to ask a lot of people towards the end of our conversation. We talked about you going back and giving advice to your younger self, right? If you could go to the future, to the last day, imagine hypothetically you get to live as long as you want. Okay. As long as you want, you get to stay on this earth, but it's the last day.

And I know it's the last day.

Yeah, you know, it's the last day. God's calling you home. This is your last day, Terry. Okay. It can be as long in the future as you want. Yeah. But on the last day, for whatever reason, you have to take all of your work with you. It means this book has to go with you, this conversation, anything that's ever been said by you on TV. Oh boy. We don't have access to it anymore. Would you get this? Hypothetical. It's a hypothetical. Yeah. But on the last day, God says you get to leave behind 3 lessons to the world, 3 truths. For you, what would be those 3 truths that you would leave behind, those 3 lessons?

3 truths. Wow, that's a really good question. How am I going to answer that question?

It can be as simple as you want. It could be anything that comes to mind.

I've touched on probably most of them already.

But if you could boil it down to 3 things.

Be kind. Be kind. Well, be kind. You'll you'll you'll get so much more out of life. So many more rewards will come if you're kind. Second thing I was going to say: Don't write this down. Don't trust the politicians.

Which hey yeah if it's your truth yeah yeah but be kind.

I would hope that you find true love. True love. That's, as we well know, that's the good, the bad, the ugly. Find true love. Be kind. I hope you find true love. There's so many things I could say. This one just came to me about, you're not as good as people say you are, and you're certainly not as bad. Yeah. Trust yourself. I would also put faith in there, but that's going to be a given because God's calling me home. Yeah, those are beautiful.

I love those. Okay, 2 final questions for you because I know we got to get you out to your next meeting. What you got? Um, what's the one question you wish people would ask you that they don't ask? The one question you said at the beginning. I know you wish there was a question that I would—

No, you got me.

So what's the one question you wish people would ask? They don't ask about you.

You know why I enjoyed this interview with you? Number one, I like you. Appreciate it. Number two, your questions are really good.

Thanks.

You kept us on a path and you're making me think.

Oh, that's good.

The one question I wish people would ask me, why do you think people like you on television? Or do they? Why should I believe anything you're saying? Where's all this coming from? I'm trying. That's a hard question, you know. Yeah, yeah. You ask that to everybody because— no, you should because— yeah, no, I don't.

I, you know, for me, you said at the beginning, if there was a question you asked me that I'd never been asked before, yeah, this would be a valuable conversation. So I didn't know if there was a question that you feel like People always ask you about Super Bowls and your thoughts on football and this and that, but it's like, what do you really care about? What is about you that you wish people were interested in you different than the character, the persona, the success, the accomplishments, the Hollywood Walk of Fame, the Hall of Fame, all these things?

Things you don't deserve.

What's your greatest fear moving forward?

My biggest fear?

Yeah.

Knowing that My biggest fear, I think my biggest fear, if I have a fear, is not being able to work at Fox NFL Sunday. Really?

It's been your home for so long now, right?

It is my life. It's all I've ever done. It's what I— listen, you get up and go to work. Are you happiest? You can't wait to get to work. Are you that thrilled? That's why I am. Can you imagine going to work on Sunday with stray hair? Howie Long, Gronkowski, Kurt Menefee, and talk football. And to 6 million viewers out there, the number one rated show every year for the last 32 years. No. And have fun and enjoy and never get upset, uh, never get jealous. Everybody pulling for everybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You make a nice living and you watch football all day.

It's a good gig.

And they bring food in for you and they ask you, what do you want for lunch? Yeah, yeah.

What I want for lunch?

Oh my God, what a great question. You know, I mean, and your bosses walk in and they're smiling and, hey, how you doing? Great. I mean, really, I don't have that anymore. If I have a fear, that—

Interesting.

That would be it.

Who would you be without that show if it ended?

Okay, here's already planned it out. I have a lifetime contract speaking for Washington Speakers Bureau. So I asked the question: my life or yours? It's important, right? So I've been a motivational well, I'm a humorist. They call me a humorist now, but I've been speaking professionally for over forty some years, and I do love it. Yeah, I love being on stage.

So you go on tour, you'd be speaking.

I love it. I love getting in the crowd. I don't care if it's 10,000. I don't care what it is. I absolutely eat it up. Cool. It is, man. My wife's like, how you doing? You good? Yeah. Yeah. What are you going to— how are you going to start the show? How do I know? And I'm— when I'm getting ready to make a speech, I start 2 or 3 days ahead of time and nobody knows this, but I'm writing. Yeah, or I'm thinking, you know, I've been writing for all those years. I don't write it down. I write it here, and I place it, and I'll say, okay, where am I going? I'm gonna do this or this. Then something's always gonna lead. Something's always gonna come to me. Okay, I'm gonna go last moment. I remember this is this to me. It's funny. Maybe our viewers won't. So Tammy gives me this. I heard this saying on television by this. um, bass singer. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful barbato. Oh, and he had this saying before he sung, and come devil, come, and crashing with the— and the horses came down and lightning and thunder. He did a beautiful bass, and I'm like, golly, it's just gorgeous. He paints this picture of Jesus and Coming down on the horse, and and it's like wow! And the thunder, and then he then he sings this. He sings this song, and he has this saying, and he does this saying. I went, "Oh my gosh, that saying is amazing!" But it's on TV. I want to hear it again. So I tell Tammy, "This guy just said this. Here's the show he's on. Can we get this? Can I? I need a copy of this." Can I get this? A few weeks later, she comes in and she goes, here it is. She got it for me. So I get this saying and I decide that during my speeches, I, I talk a lot about— I have a lot of fun. I talk about business, I talk about goals, all the things a speaker is supposed to do. But I'm— but I tell stories and tie it all together and personalize it and so on and so forth. Then I'll take a break somewhere Or somewhere, and then this comes. I'll take a pause and I'll say, it's in the quiet crucible of your personal private suffering that your noblest dreams are born and God's greatest gifts are given to you in compensation for what you've been through.

Wow.

Yeah, quiet crucible. I had to look that up. I didn't know what it was. Trials. and your quiet trials of your personal private suffering, your noblest dreams are born, God's greatest gifts. So it's while you're struggling that you're thinking, how am I going to get— how am I going to get out of this? I'm in a hole, you know, but I don't give up. I keep clawing. I keep skimming. I got things to do, places to go. So, so I'm down, but I'm not out. And I crawl to the top and God blesses me for not giving up. And that's perfect. So first time I'm going to use that. You ready for this? Boy, I'm, I'm shelling down the corn. I'm giving a speech. I have sweat splattered everywhere. And I mean, I'm getting into it. And I stand back and I take a deep breath. It's in your quietness of stuff that you're doing. You forget.

I forgot. Wow.

I forgot. And I made up this saying and I'm like, oh my God, what did I do? So the, so the next speech I give, I take my pause and I've gone over it. I'm going over it and I go, yeah. It's in the quiet times when we most think about, oh, I just did it again. I am so mad. But I get through it. They don't know that. They don't know what I'm doing. And then finally, finally, I got it.

You remember? Yeah. Yeah. That's great. My final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

Well, let me ask you this. Is it really that important? Is it? I mean, greatness, is it really important? Why not just say what's your greatest happiness? Why greatness? That means I got to accomplish something. At first, when I hear great, automatically think to myself, Great. What makes this so great? Oh, because they accomplished so much. You don't think somebody else is going to accomplish more? Yeah. Why has it got to be great? Is he the greatest quarterback that ever played in his decade? Yeah. Is he the greatest running back? Yeah. But we, we spend all our time in America looking for who's the best. We're looking— we spend all our time in America, who's number one? I already told you, Fox NFL Sunday, number one. Proud of that. But America loves its winners, and it loves to put them on a pedestal and idolize them. Only later, we may— they may disappoint us with something they've done, okay? But something they've done, be it morally or whatever. So I don't really go by What is greatness? You can look it up and say that you do things better than anybody else, or this person has. Okay, and you go, oh, that's great. Many times when you watch television in a sporting event, great, great, great, great, great. It's overused. Great. You know, it's just overused. I never— for— I don't know that I've ever been called great. I've been called an icon. Yeah, I don't even know what that is. But great? I don't know. Is great really that important? Is it? Maybe to you. Maybe, maybe to our viewers out there where though, well, wait a minute. He's the greatest bowler ever. Mickey Mantle was the first guy to make $100,000. He was great because he hit home runs and stole da da da da da. Now people are making millions. That so he's not great? Well, he was in it. So I, I just am not big on great. Yeah, that's okay. I never have been. That's okay. I never have been big on great because something's always going to be better. Sure. Yeah, always. And something about great's going to be a disappointment. Yeah, look, look, I, I can sit here and start naming people that people call great, and I can point out something about them that's not so great, right? Maybe you don't know it, but then that wouldn't be The right thing to do. Yeah, but I just don't live with great.

Yeah. I mean, my definition has evolved over the years. I think earlier when I was younger, it was about being the best. And now—

Best.

And now it's about pursuing your, your goals and your dreams. Right. And in that pursuit, making the maximum impact on the people around you. Yeah. For me, that's more my definition now rather than Are you number one?

Listen, the greatest impact you can have on people is being nice to them. Of all the things you do and accomplish in your life, the best thing you're ever going to feel good about is the fact that you were nice to people. We live in a world today that's not nice. We live in a society in this country which is not nice. We're mean, we're hateful, we're bitter, we're immoral. I mean, In America today, all right? What's wrong with being nice? Yeah, you realize what do they always say? You you kill more whatever flies with honey. Kindness, sweetness. I mean, don't fight fire with fire. You know, it's it's it works.

Maybe that's try it. Maybe that's greatness. Maybe that's greatness being nice.

If that's what you want to call it. Yeah, because I mean, I can use the word great easy, but I just am not impressed with great.

Yeah.

You know, I've met some of the— I've met some of the most— I've met some of the most famous people in the world, and they are so nice. Which makes me just love them and like them even more. And I met some that are not nice, and I can't stand them. I don't care what they do. And if you, if you gave— let me tell you, if I had Elon Musk's money, for instance, if I was almost a trillionaire, I wouldn't be a trillionaire. You know why? Because I'd take $500 billion and I'd feed the hungry, or I'd shelter the homeless. Or I take care of the homeless kids or the battered women. There's so much good you can do other than building monuments to yourself. Makes no sense to me. Where's the joy in that? More people will say wonderful things about you the more you do for man. And what can you say? Mankind or humankind? Humanity. Because you can't eliminate the women. Humanity. Humanity. There you go. Humanity. Yeah. Don't you agree? 100%. I think about it all the time. Golly, I wish I had that kind of money, man. Well, look what I would do. I would, oh, be Bradshaw City, Bradshaw City. I'd have feeding people. Golly, what a— I'm like, that's cool. Yeah, yeah, you know, giving hope to people, people that are down and out on their luck, and just giving them hope. Boy, there's nothing more powerful than hope, man. I can get out of this? You mean I can get out of this? Of course you can. Of course you can. That's cool.

Well, I love— I think it was a great answer. I mean, it doesn't have to be about greatness, but about kindness. So yeah, which is more powerful.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah. Terry, I appreciate it very much. Thanks for being here. Thanks for everything, Lewis.

A pleasure. I hope we get to come back. Of course. Yeah, I'll have another book, or I can just come back and we can just shoot the breeze. I love it. Yeah, I just kept thinking achieving more would make me feel better. It would take these dark feelings away and this feeling that still lives in the pit of my stomach. I will get rid of this anxiety because I will have achieved this.

And yet that's kind of where depression arises, when you think that your brain is going to change and go back to that, that baseline after that.