The Big Signs You're In Toxic Relationships & How To Set Boundaries w/ Nedra Glover Tawwab EP 1400

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One of the biggest things I think we could do in our family relationships is really take ownership of being an adult. This is where I am, this is who I am, and these are the things that I can change, and these are the things that I cannot change. in other people. And that's one of the biggest ways that we can.

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

A lot of people are struggling with understanding what a toxic relationship is. And I actually feel like a lot of people are in them and they don't know how to get out of them. I'm curious, can you share with me and us some of the key signs? Like if these few things are happening, you're definitely in some type of a relationship that is maybe toxic or unhealthy. There are a few keys. that we should be looking for?

Big signs, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse.

Okay.

There are things outside of that, like we may experience emotional abuse, I would lump that into, or manipulation, I would lump that into emotional abuse. We may have some demeaning, I might lump that into emotional abuse, but sometimes we're not aware because it's so normal in the relationship.

We're so familiar with this behavior, right?

And from a particular person, right? This person is always yelling. This person always pushes people. This person always says mean things. So you chop it up as, this is how they are. But that behavior can be abusive. Yes. That behavior can be unhealthy, not just for the relationship they're in with you, but any relationship. I couldn't go to the doctor and push my doctor or yell at the doctor, that would be a crime.

Right. Why do we allow our loving, intimate partner that we're supposed to love the most commit these things against us verbally, emotionally, sexually, consistently? Why do we allow these things to happen so frequently?

Because of the trust and connection that has been built, there was a process of getting to this space when we have long-term relationships or intimate relationships with people. Of course, day one, they can't say, oh, I'm going to cuss you out, and we'll be in this relationship for 10 years. But maybe after a while of building trust and, and learning a person and learning how you can manipulate the situation, that's when we start to see abuse. We start to see it when there is a level of trust that is now being broken by this person. It's not always right away. And the signs, they are not like, it's sometimes very like, oh my gosh, is this happening? Is this person really lying about this thing? Is this person really trying to sabotage me? It's almost like we start to think, is this real? Is this problematic? If you put in key search terms like narcissism, gaslighting, It's like list of stuff because we're all wondering, am I really being abused? We have to learn to trust ourselves and what we're feeling in those situations. Sometimes we don't need any more information. We don't need to read any more articles. We don't need to read anything else. It's like they yelled at me in front of a room of people. It's like, what are we waiting for? what do we need to happen to say that this situation is unhealthy and out of control?

Yeah, and it's not okay.

It's not okay.

What does it say about us when we allow these behaviors to happen in intimacy continuously, as opposed to saying, okay, you raising your voice and yelling at me does not work for me. I've never seen this behavior before. This is something that is against my boundary and that won't work for me moving forward. And let's create an agreement that we don't do this. What does it say about us when we allow bad behavior continuously over time? Is it we haven't healed something that we don't believe in ourselves, we lack self-worth, what is that?

I think it could say many different things. It could be we're unhealed. It could be we are replaying some trauma we've already had, or we're familiar with chaos and this person is recreating it in a way. It could also mean that we see some potential in this person. We know those good parts, and we're just waiting for those things to come back. Like, I know they're in there. It's also sometimes what we believe happens in relationships. No relationship is easy. Or perfect. It's like, yeah, no relationship is perfect, but I don't know if that's the imperfect thing.

That's not what I should accept.

You're right. That's not the imperfect thing that you want. So there are so many things. I remember there used to be a thing, if you loved yourself more, you wouldn't be in bad relationships. There are people who really love themselves and they're still in bad relationships because they really love that person too. And they're hoping, sometimes we stay because we hope that this situation will change. We hope that this person will get better. So it's not always trauma. It's like, wishful thinking. We want things to improve.

How often does wishful thinking and hoping in a relationship with someone who has bad behaviors actually work out? Like where in the year they change into their actual potential, like dating the potential and hoping they change. Does that ever happen?

Yeah, I mean, if there's some catastrophic event, right? You have this moment of, oh my gosh, I almost thought the world was over and I changed as a human. Or, you know, things happen in people's life where they decide to change. It's not us doing the work for them. They have this moment. When does that happen on our relationships? I don't know. I feel like I'm in relationships with unchanged people, and I'm in relationships with people who have changed. So it's not really a-- ASHLEY BLAINE TYLER AUSTIN: Sure. To me, what that timing is.

But an intimacy, if someone's got bad behavior, maybe you want something to change, they could be a better person, but if it's bad behavior that's causing verbal, emotional, or sexual abuse, it sounds like, I mean, you wrote in here, you can't change people, so don't hold your breath waiting for them to change. You can only control your side of the street. And it sounds to me, unless there's some type of massive breakdown, or they lose their job or near-death experience or someone in their family dies that has the chance of opening them up for change. But even then, they might stay stuck in a box, right? So I hear you saying it's like you have this hope that people will change and you love other aspects of them. But should we stay in intimate relationships where there is abuse and how much abuse should we handle or take? to create a boundary or move on the intimate relationships like, you know, I.

Think that enough point is when your safety is compromised, right? When, when people talk to me about being in unhealthy relationships that are emotionally, verbally or physically abusive, I often say, do you feel safe? When you no longer feel safe sleeping in the house with someone safe, physically safe, emotionally safe, they will cause something within you. I think it's start, it's, you're at the point of, you know, safety first. You know, I think that was like an elementary school sort of safety first.

Yeah.

You know, you have to think about, will you be alive at the end of this? How will you live if something else happens in this relationship? Not all bad relationships are to that extent. But there are some of them where it's like, you know, if this happened again, I don't know if you'll make it through.

Right. Yeah. Safety for sure. And when it feels like your nervous system doesn't feel safe because you're being manipulated or there's some gaslighting happening, is that the same type of safety when you're just like, huh, am I safe with myself? They're not gonna physically harm me.

Mm-.

But I'm feeling like this gaslighting manipulation. Is that also something we should look out for?

Absolutely. I think with gaslighting, there's a lot of questioning of who you are and what you think about the situation. The emotional breakthrough for me with gaslighting was it doesn't work anymore. Like, I'm so sure of what happened. The truth is, yeah, I'm so sure. of the truth, there's nothing you can say. I'm not even explaining the situation to you for you to break down the pieces and tell me it's not true anymore. It doesn't even matter what your interpretation is. It took a lot of work to get there with people who gaslight because their whole plan is like, how do I dissect this story? How do I make this person think that I did this, but I didn't really do it, or I did it with this intention. All of those things. A big part of gaslighting is people are trying to have their way with you. They're using tactics and skills that are unhealthy. When you have a relationship with someone who refuses to be accountable, they are saying, I can't accept who I am, So I am going to make you think I'm something else.

Wow. They refuse to be accountable. So they try to put the blame on someone else, essentially, right? So they don't have to take responsibility for what happened. Is that what it is? Is that what gaslighting essentially is or?

Yeah, it's, you know, I was speaking with someone earlier who said it's easier to see yourself as a bad person in hindsight. Like, man, when I was 12, I was bad. But today, would I say that about myself? Even if I did something? Like, do I want to, like, can I sleep at night knowing I was bad today? And so it might be easier for me to say, no, I'm great and wonderful today and always, because that just makes me be able to live with myself. Some things, it's just, it's hard to put together. It's hard to put together.

It's hard to face that you're making a bad decision. Even when you do something wrong, you could justify right? You could like somehow justify, well, they did this, I want to do this bad thing, but it's not bad because they deserved it or whatever, right? It's like you can justify it in some way, as opposed to say, I'm a bad person, I made a bad decision in this moment. Yes, that's what can happen. Interesting. So how do we know when we're experiencing gaslighting from someone else?

When their version of reality and your version of reality is not the same thing, it's not necessarily an indicator of gaslighting. What's a bigger indicator is when that is always the case. There is no congruence. And I said this, you said that. It's like, no, that wasn't. When you start to notice the inconsistencies on a constant basis in the stories and what happened and why you may be experiencing some form of, of gaslighting, whether that's, you know, to the mass extent or to a lower extent. I think there are some normal levels of gaslighting, right? Like lying and these things we do because it's like, oh, no, I didn't take it. It's like, well, no one else was here. But then there are these other psychological twists that people can do that are really disruptive to your spirit or really disruptive to your life. And I think when you start to notice that on a consistent basis with a particular person, you have to see that as there is no honesty here and I have to start to trust myself.

Ah, but what if you don't trust yourself? How do you learn to build that trust back with you?

The way that we typically try to do it, we try to share that story with other people. We try to get people to see our side of it, to validate what we're experiencing. And hopefully that validation we receive from others starts to be a way that we can start to validate ourselves. So as Lewis tells me more and more, yes, I can't believe they did that. Maybe the next time it happens, hopefully that becomes your internal voice. I can't believe they're doing this. Wow, this isn't okay. You know, in therapy sometimes I will ask people, I will hear the manipulation, I'll hear them expressing like someone is gaslighting them. And I'll say, what do you call the behavior they're engaged in? And they're like, manipulation?

Mmm.

Mmm. So you see that you're being manipulated. Why would they do that? Let's focus on being manipulated. We don't have to go into the backstory of why they're doing it. you're being manipulated. What do you want to do with that? That's tough. This person you love is trying to get you to do something that you've said no and they keep asking you, or you let them have this one thing, now they want seven things. You all had an issue and they have a whole different story about the issue. They're telling other people something different. How does it feel to you that This person is now doing that to you. I'm hurt. That hurts. How does that make you feel about the relationship? Is this something you want to address with them? Is this something you just want to keep in your pocket and say, okay, let's see what happens from here. How do you want to proceed?

Yeah. What do you think is the biggest mistake a lot of people make getting into an intimate relationship? Because I feel like these things come out six to 12 months later when you're in intimacy sometimes, not every relationship, but it seems like people are good, generally good, and have good intentions in the beginning, and then the gaslighting or manipulation comes out later. What do you feel like people get wrong about entering a relationship so that there is a healthy, conscious relationship to occur later?

I don't think we're noticing enough because we're seeing what we want to see, right? We're seeing all the wonderful things, great hair, great eyes, job, car, whatever. And I think the other thing is we're not asking the right questions.

What questions should we be asking?

Why did your last relationship end? How was your relationship with your parents? How many friends do you have and how are your relationships with them? who do you share your deepest secrets to? How do you handle money? What do you think? Just all of those things that build a person. Like we need to know not just where you live, where you work, what you like to do for fun, the deep stuff, the really deep stuff about people. How's your relationship with your mom? And then from there, oh, me and my mom have a great relationship. Really? How often do you talk? You know, just really probing people in this way to figure it out. Because if someone says, we have a great relationship and you talk to them once a month, well, that's not how I have my great relationships. Right, right, right. So there is some incongruency in your story. I'm very family oriented. When the last time you seen your family? You know, so asking people to sort of provide more information. Sometimes we try to keep it surface because we are afraid. Is it too soon? Should I go deep? And I'm like, you know, we go deep. We have sexual experiences with people. We go on multiple dates. I think we can have these important conversations if you want to build emotionally intimate relationships with people.

Why is it easier for people to sleep with someone in the first night or the first week and not have open, deep conversations with them.

I think it is hard to want to acknowledge things about ourselves because if you ask me a question, I have to ask you a question or maybe.

I have to answer. Or answer what I have to answer. Right?

So, you know, perhaps it's a way for us to not have that mutual sharing. Maybe I'm not ready. Maybe I'm not in that space of healing. It's possible that I'm not in that space and all, I want to have a partner, but I think about that as fun. I don't think about how this person life may impact who they are. I'm just thinking about, oh, they're fun. So sometimes it's, we're not deep enough to get to that point with people, but I think those emotional questions are really important. The surface stuff stuff is, you know, it's surface, it's great, but we need to get down to business.

It's interesting, when I met my girlfriend Martha, we connected online to meet in person, right? She was following the podcast and she had listened to an interview of mine about spiritual healing, to be honest. And then we'd gotten connected and we met up in person. and when I picked her up to meet her for the first time, I had my phone in kind of the middle seat of the car. She was in the passenger seat. I was driving. And I had my phone kind of right next to us. And my. The. The phone lights up so you can see my screen saver. And it's a photo of myself as a five-year-old on my screen saver. And she looks. I saw her looking down at it, and right away, I literally just met her, like, five minutes before this. I go, oh, don't worry, that's not like, I don't have a kid. You know, that's, I'm going through a process and you know, it's not a kid of mine. She goes, oh, are you healing the inner child? And I go, Yes, I am. And I thought maybe she'd think that it's weird or something, but yes, I'm doing the work where I'm going back and healing the different wounds that I had as a child and creating new meaning from those memories and really mending that relationship with myself. She goes, that's beautiful. I'm doing the same thing. She showed me her phone and had like a, you know, five or six year old version of herself on there. And I was like, wow. So right away, the first night, the connection. The first night we're talking about healing, we're talking about all these different things, which I don't know if I'd have been willing to do that 10 years prior. I wouldn't have been in that space to talk like that. But I was in that space. I was available to talk like that. She was available. And so it just went into like, the most deep conversations right away. And I felt like, okay, we could go there faster. And I could see if we're in alignment on our values and our vision and our lifestyle quicker. And just see like, okay, is this for us to hang out more, to be friends more, to date eventually, and be committed eventually. But we had so many of these deeper conversations, which I think I was afraid to ask. in previous periods of my life, because I was afraid to face them like you talked about. It can be scary.

It can be really scary. And I think sometimes people will let you know when they're not ready to go deeper. They will say, why are you asking me that? We just met. Right, right. You know, like those are signs. Take it easy. Okay, you know, maybe there's something there, maybe there isn't, but this person isn't willing to reveal that. I think there are so many intimate conversations we can have without even talking about trauma. Maybe that's not first date conversations, but there are so many other things that we could talk about. How I feel about maybe people not returning my call. That's not trauma. That's true. But it gives a person information about you. And one thing I've noticed with male and female dynamics is women are able to go really deep with other women. Oh my gosh. I met two strangers yesterday and I know way too much.

They shared their whole life story. Yeah, yeah.

Oh my gosh, I know way too much. And I think if we can do that with women, we have to learn in some ways to be able to probe and go deeper with men and men have to be able to do that with men and men have to be able to do that with women. And you know, this whole circle of we are emotional beings, period. No matter the gender, we feel, we see, we experience.

I read a stat one time that 50% of men don't feel like they have one male friend they can open up and talk about with anything on their mind. They can go to the bar and have a drink, they can watch a game with, they can do activities with, but 50% of men say they don't have one male friend they could share and open up and be vulnerable with. It sounds like more women have that. They have multiple girlfriends or women in their lives that they can be vulnerable with and open up about things they're afraid of or insecure about or vulnerable about. What would you think would happen if women didn't have one friend they could open up and be real with fully about their fears and insecurities, what would happen?

I think we would, I don't even know because I can't say that I've experienced that.

Imagine if you were never able to share how you truly feel with one girlfriend or your mom or your sister or a girl in your life. How would it make you feel?

That makes me sad. That makes me sad to think about not having the ability to share, not having people who are capable or willing to listen to me share. I think there is so much to be done around not just us being able to feel our emotions, but us being able to receive the emotions of others. When people are sitting across from me crying, you know, they're like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm like, it's fine. Like, you're a human being. You feel it? Yeah. Yeah, cry. Like, I'm not gonna go anywhere. I'm just, you know, I'm just watching.

But it's like, oh my gosh, someone's watching me cry. Why is it so scary for us to be vulnerable with others watching us, whether it be just having a normal human emotion, sadness, crying, purging, grieving, these emotions. Why do we hide them in front.

Of others and feel ashamed?

When we're feeling them.

We're undoing so much from childhood. We're undoing that, you know, don't cry, it's not that big of a deal. I'll give you something to cry about. Instead of feeling that, feel this, you're a boy, you're a girl, big girls don't cry, blah, blah. You know, like we're undoing so much of that steel in our grown ages. You know, some of us, you know, It's really tough. I once heard this guy say he hadn't cried in two years. I said, oh my gosh, you're like constipated. Like you're- you-'re emotionally constipated. You are emotionally constipated. I don't even want to be around for the rainfall. I'm like, it's gonna be big. And it's probably gonna be over, you know, dropping your mug over the floor, because two years without crying? Oh my gosh.

What happens to someone if they have the inability to cry? What does that say about them or the process they're in or what they need in order to. And is there something wrong with them if they're unable to cry or.

There's not necessarily anything wrong with them. I would say that there is a need to go back to the very basics of I feel sad. I feel hurt. I feel frustrated. Sometimes we don't even know what we feel, and that gets in the way of us being able to express how we feel about things. It's so hard, you know, when people say, It's so hard for me to say how I feel. It's like, But you feel it and you can't say it? Yeah, it gets hard when it is abnormal for us, when it is something that we're not doing often enough. we should be in the practice of just throwing around a few feelings here and there. I'm excited, I'm overjoyed, I'm sad, I'm confused, I'm frustrated. I can't believe I didn't get that project. Being disappointed is a part of life. We all feel it. So hiding, hiding that feeling, hiding how you feel, it's tough.

Yeah. You mentioned before we started about the word triggered. And I think this is interesting for us because I feel like a lot of people get triggered by the littlest things. That end up being a lot bigger things for people, but they get triggered in things where I don't feel like they need to be triggered by, let's just say that. And they get triggered very often and frequently. Whether they see something they don't agree with, they're triggered. Someone commented in a negative way, they're triggered. Someone cut them off in a car, triggered, whatever it might be. What does it say about us when we are constantly in trigger mode and constantly triggered by life scenarios, situations? Not saying we shouldn't have a wide range of emotions and feel sad or disappointed and let down, but when it's like a constant triggering, when little things happen and you're like explosive or reactive, what does it say about the human who is being triggered?

The human who is being triggered, I would almost equate it to a tantrum.

Yes.

You know, sometimes when we are tantruming as adults, we don't have the language, we don't have the capacity to feel. So it comes out in these really big moments of, like, rage and anger and, you know, maybe crying, but crying in this very, like, angry and disturbed way sometimes because we may feel out of control in one area and now we're driving and we're yelling at this other car when really it's, I hate my job.

Right.

That's the issue you're having is, I hate my job and you're taking that out on this other thing. You're taking your, ugh, my partner is getting out on my nerves out on your co-worker. you know, so there are so many things that we sort of displace onto these other factors that we think we can control. Maybe it feels safer to have road rage than to think about the situation with your job, to think about the situation with your family. And so we put that energy, you know, where we feel like we can and not in a conscious way. I think it's very unconscious, but When I see people with road rage, when I see people being triggered constantly, I do wonder what deeper thing is happening. Because the cashier not giving you the correct amount of change should not have resulted in you flipping over the, you know, like, so what is going on? Is it, I feel constantly disrespected. Ah, okay. So this one person did it in this, small, mistake kind of way. And now this bigger thing is coming up. Who disrespected you? Who named them? Who is the person? Because it's not this person. But we often, we displace that because we try to compartmentalize. We try to put it in a little pocket and say, well, I don't want to be mad at this thing right now, so I'll keep going. But we really don't keep going. It's just like we're still here, but we're also over here.

I lived that way for most of my life until 10 years ago I opened up about being sexually abused. And in life, I would get easily triggered when I felt like I was being taken advantage of or abused by the littlest things. It's just I would get so reactive and be angry, but it's I never addressed and mended that original moment that caused that pain. that was an open wound that I just kept living in and I tried to put it back. I tried to forget about it. I tried to say, I wasn't that big a deal. And it caused a lot of suffering until I addressed it and faced it. So I love that you mentioned that. Like, you've got to go back and figure out who's the one who disrespected you in the first place. Name it, say it, call it out, talk about it. How do we really, like, learn to process the healing? How do we learn to face it and actually heal. Because for me, it took a couple of years of processing and healing that wound. And then it was tied to many other things where I felt taken advantage of and abused, where I had to face. But how do we actually face it? And how long does it take until we can get to a state of not being as triggered anymore? And also, do you think it's possible to heal on your own? Sorry, I asked you like 20 questions in a row.

You asked me 25 questions at once.

Why is it so hard to face it? The wound. How long does it typically take to start to feel the relief of the wound? And is it wise to try to mend and heal pain on your own, or is it typically better to find some type of emotional support?

I'm going to start with the last question. Hopefully, even if we're doing it without therapy or coach or, you know, some spiritual support, we have a friend. So are we alone? Never. There needs to be someone in place, right now, whether that is a mental health provider or your best friend, there needs to be someone to support you on that journey. There are some types of healing that it's very hard for us to do on our own, and that's why we haven't done the work.

We don't know how to do the work, yeah.

We don't know how to do the work. And in that case, you know, a self-help book, it's gonna be informative, but it's not gonna put you in the place that you need to be in. You could read 50 self-help books and you might not do the work, on your own. So those are the times where you notice, like, I know these things, but nothing is happening. That might be an indicator that you need more support to get you to the other side of that healing. Can you be fully healed? Can you, is there like a time frame? I don't think so. I think some stuff is ongoing. I think some stuff is forever painful. There are things that we were forever grieved about, you know, maybe parts of our childhood or not having certain things that we wanted or the loss of, you know, a particular person. There's not this happy ending, things get better for everything in life. Some stuff, it hurts less. We think about it less often. We're less triggered. we're less maybe moved to tears and other things, you know, maybe never. Maybe every time I mention my grandmother, I'll tear up. And that's okay. You know, I think sometimes that pain shows us love. That pain shows us how much we cared about having, you know, a solid childhood or how much we cared about, you know, losing this particular thing. So it's not always, bad. I think what's more important is the meaning you give to the experience. The meaning you give to the situation. Once we deal with something, it's not like we will never go back to it. Like, oh my gosh, I'm forever healed from being passive aggressive. Yeah, until today. And then I did that thing, where I was a little bit, not as bad as I used to be, but a little bit, you know? So, you know, there's this ebb and flow. And I think as humans, we have to allow ourselves that Grace to not get into the spirit of perfectionism or done or complete. I think that's great for a paper, but it doesn't work in real life.

Yeah. Amen to that. And I love that you mentioned, you know, if you think of something, allowing yourself to to feel the emotion of sadness or grief or loss or joy or celebration and feel. But I think when it becomes like you're still emotionally triggered to react or to be angry because of something, that's when I think it holds us back. So allow it to move you into a different emotion than anger or trigger or holding you back from being in healthy relationships is kind of what I'm thinking about. is when we can learn to not be as triggered reaction-wise, which I think is more helpful for someone.

Yeah, I think about people who may have been hurt in past relationships. There was maybe a lot of infidelity or there were, I could never trust my parents or I had this thing. And that thing sticks with them and every person that they try to be in relationship with has to deal with that, or they don't even try to be in relationships anymore.

Right.

You know, there is this ability for us to change our futures and to think about, you know, those things as experience, not necessarily how our lives will end up. Just because you have this situation in your family, in a dating relationship, it doesn't mean the next thing will be like that.

Right, that's true. But it's hard to trust the next thing will be different.

It is. And that's where we get to, if I can't learn to trust on my own, I might need someone to help me learn to trust. But, you know, I'll tell you with trusting, the really hard part is trusting. That's the only way to trust, is to believe that someone can be there for you to believe that this experience can be different. Trust is hope.

You gotta have faith. And then when there's signs of, you know, gaslighting or some toxic behavior, you've gotta say, hey, you gotta create a boundary, which is why I love your work about creating boundaries. How do we learn to communicate effective boundaries in families? with people that we can't get rid of in some times, you know? And then also in friendships, relationships, career, how do we do it in life in a conscious, healthy way where we're not really like, we're causing the least amount of friction with the other person. We're not like attacking back, but we're saying, hey, this is the boundary that I have. What's the best way to approach boundaries?

Keep it simple. You know, I think sometimes we say so much because we're trying to control their reaction to it. I say we speak in paragraphs. This is why I want you to do this because yesterday at 5 o'clock and 4 p.m. It's like we're writing a police report. And it's like, what is the solution here? What do you want? What do they need to know? It's really getting to the point of the thing. We're trying to control, oh, I don't want them to think I'm a bad person. And we can't control that piece of it. That's really tough because We can have the best intentions and someone can still be upset at us. Like, I could hold the door for someone and they could say, I want to hold it myself. It's like, okay, I was trying to be helpful. It doesn't mean that you're always being helpful when you try. It doesn't mean that you're always being kind when you're trying to be kind. And so even when you're trying to curate the right words, the right environment, It may not land well with a person who doesn't want that same thing. And that's tough. You have to deal with yourself and your disappointment in their reaction, your grief around how they responded, the sadness of that not being received. It's not really for that other person to do anything with. I think of setting a boundary as like applying to a college. We'll see. You know, it's like, we'll see what happens with that. hopefully you get in. But sometimes you don't. That's the power of choice and free will. People hopefully in relationships with you love you and they want to be in that relationship and want the relationship to be healthy and they can honor it. And sometimes they're like, hey, I have a different boundary actually. This is bumping up against my boundary.

Exactly.

So that's relationships.

And when it comes to managing unhealthy family relationships and being drama free, which is what your book is all about, and I want people to get this, again, when it comes to managing unhealthy family relationships and creating more peace in the family, what would you say are the few keys to get started in that process to set yourself up for healthy relationship and family?

One of the biggest things I think we could do in our family relationships is really take ownership of being an adult. We are in many cases still trying to live up to old expectations, create some version of ourselves that we have to pretend to be like around our families. Sometimes there is some trauma there that hasn't been addressed. But we really have to take ownership of this is where I am, this is who I am, and these are the things that I can change, and these are the things that I cannot change in other people. And that's one of the biggest ways that we can make our relationships healthier, decide to leave them, decide to, you know, be in them differently. we have a lot of power in our relationships with our family.

And if you mentioned about how there might be some things that aren't addressed yet that have happened in the past, can you really create drama free relationships and family if you haven't addressed the pain from the past, from childhood, from the situations that you felt were unfair or you weren't seen, or maybe some more traumatic events that were unaddressed? Can you create drama-free life?

You can, but I think that drama and that it's almost like you have to compartmentalize that, right? Can you do that? Some of us can, you know? I don't think all of us can. Very few.

Should we do that, though, without addressing it?

I think it comes up in other ways. So when we don't address stuff, we talked about that earlier, row rage. You know, when we don't address stuff, it comes up in other ways. So if I am forgetting that, my parent was an alcoholic. How does that show up in my dating relationship? Am I now dating people who have substance issues? Am I now having this issue with substances? Am I making excuses for people and enabling? How is this stuff continuing to show up because of my refusal to address it? And addressing it is not always with the other person.

A lot of the- yeah, they might have died. They might have just disappeared.

There may be no resolution with them, but the resolution is with you. It is you saying, wow, this was my experience. This is how that experience impacted me. It's not, this person needs to do something to free me from my experience. It's like, how do I free myself?

Yeah, 'cause they may never apologize, they may never accept it. So how do we free ourselves then from that? Sorry to cut you off there.

No, we free ourselves with the truth. The truth shell set you free. That is a good one for a reason. We free ourselves with the truth. I don't know if you, and you probably have been in a situation where you refuse to live in a lie. Yeah. It's like, you know, this is the truth. And I refuse to pretend as if anything else is true about this situation. And that can be a real way to get some sort of relief from having to live a lie, or from agreeing to be a part of the secret keeping, agreeing to be a part of something that was actually disruptive. And it doesn't have to be, I will be a truth teller. I will tell everyone. It's internal. It can be outward, but it can also be internal. I will not withhold who I am to other people in my life because I don't want to keep that secret anymore. Or it may be, I want to tell a therapist. I want to, you know, get this information out there. But I think sometimes just being honest with yourself about what happened. So often I hear the sugar coating of our childhood because that's how we want it to be perceived. You know, my mom did this all the time, but she was so loving and da, da, da, da, da. Like we tell all of this story. They were such a great person, da, da, but they were physically abusive. It's like, okay, yes. So you lived in a nice house. They did this, they did that. Oh, can we talk about the physical abuse part? Whoa, you just-- I just want that piece to be this big and all this stuff was, you know, so how do we start to talk about that piece of it? Because all those other things can be true. Doesn't mean that you have to end a relationship. Just acknowledging it. All of this is true. And this is a hard part for me to talk about.

So when we address this in a family situation, whether to our parents or siblings or whatever it might be, What's the best way to set up the conversation to speaking about something that hurt you or upset you from childhood as an adult?

One way we could do it is letter writing. Writing a letter with the intention of sending it or not sending it.

Right?

Sometimes the letter is just for you. I just want to get it out so I'll have an idea of the impact. There are other times where you say, I want them to have the letter. If you send the letter, if you give them a letter, I do want you to be ready for for their reaction. So until you're ready for the reaction, keep the letter, right? Because what I've seen is the parent will not have a reaction. It's almost like you didn't send them the letter. Or the family member, not just parents. The family member has no reaction. Or their reaction is anger. Or their reaction is to be passive aggressive. Or their reaction is to bring it up. Yeah, when you sent me that letter, their reaction is to cut you off. 'Cause they can't accept that part of themselves. So they're also a reaction. They listen and they understand that letter. So any, you know, we don't know where this will go.

They apologize.

They apologize.

You start to mend the relationship.

You start to mend the relationship. What a concept. What a concept. You know, so letter writing is a way. I think, you know, really pumping yourself up and talking about it.

To them.

To them. To them.

That's a tough one.

To say, you know, I was impacted in the following ways. And there are other times where maybe you don't have the conversation, but you change your behavior with that person.

Like what? Like how?

You know, I think of families with addiction sometimes. If a person isn't willing to get help, maybe they've had this long-term issue with something. your reaction may be, I don't want to spend my holidays with you. I'm tired of this behavior. I don't want to participate in it anymore. We know what the behavior is. I don't want to spend holidays with you. Or I don't want you at this thing. Or if you come, please be sober. Or, you know, that's when you get into the boundary setting of who they are. But do you want to have the conversation of, hey, I've been impacted by your behavior in the following ways? That sounds like intervention. Maybe you don't want to do that and you just want to accept the situation for what it is and make those behavioral changes in your life.

Why do you feel like most people relate to having a dysfunctional family growing up? Why do people, it seems like people have a lot of dysfunction in families.

Because parents are human beings who have no clue what they're doing. Siblings are human beings who have no clue what they're doing. Aunties and uncles, human beings have no clue what they're doing. We have an expectation based on their role. We think, oh my gosh, once you become a mother, there's all of these things. Once you become a father, once you become an uncle, you'll know how to communicate with kids. No, I don't know how to kid, you know, like so these, these expectations, not that they're unreasonable, but the person can't, you know, they can't meet it. They don't grow up. They have their own, you know, demons they're fighting. They aren't emotionally mature. They're not reading a ton of self-help books. They haven't been to therapy. So our expectation of people, sometimes they can't be met. And that's a tough pill to swallow that although this person is a parent, they may not be nurturing. Although this person is a sibling, they may not be supportive. Although this person is your grandparent, they may have another favorite, you know, like all of these things that happen in family. I think we think of dysfunction as abuse, neglect, But it's also, you know, when someone dies and everybody's fighting over an inheritance. It's also, you know, having issues with your in-laws. It's also sabotaging your sister's wedding. It's so many things. And that's why I think people identify because, you know, so many people in the family. I mean, pick a person.

Someone's messed up.

It's so bad. Yeah, somewhere. I mean, it's not the nuclear family, but Gosh, those cousins. It's somewhere.

Yeah. I love in your dedication, you say we are the answer, not the people we can't control. How do we learn to self-soothe in dysfunctional family relationships? 'Cause one, you're talking about addressing, you know, as an adult, the parent or the person that maybe you caused upset or pain.

Right?

It's addressing it and having a conversation, writing a letter. And we may not get a good response. Hopefully we do, but we may not. How do we learn to self-soothe and mend and heal even when the other person attacks us or blows up even more?

Acceptance.

That's what I was, yeah. All about acceptance.

But it's such a process. I was talking to a friend the other day who was talking about her relationship with a family member who isn't what she wants that person to be. And she said, I don't know if I accept her. I said, you do, because you don't invite her into spaces that you know she won't fit in. We think that acceptance looks like everything will be better when in actuality, it is seeing a person as they are and knowing that you are powerless to change it.

Yeah.

So this is my mother. This is my mother and father. this is my sibling. You can want something to be different until the end of time, but this is the situation. Given the situation I have, what do I want to do about it? Often we want the other person to do something about it. The person who has exhibited all of these things, we're like, why don't you get sober? Why don't you start being more nurturing? You don't call me more often. You're not doing this. I had a game and you didn't. It's like the acceptance of that is this person is whatever this thing is. How do I be in this relationship with them or choose not to be in this relationship with them? How do I create closeness? How do I create distance? What can I do to change this situation? Because we're often trying to change people who aren't interested in changing. They aren't going to therapy. They aren't reading these books. It's like you getting the enlightenment and being like, oh, they need to change now that I know this term for them. It's like they're a gaslighter. They must change. It's like, they're not reading that book. You're reading the book.

And maybe they don't want to change.

They don't want to change. They're fine with their behavior. So what will you do? when they continue to do these things.

Acceptance and boundaries is what it sounds like, right? I remember for years I used to be kind of frustrated with my mom when I was an adult, after 21, let's say. It took me a while to become an adult, but I'd say after 21, right? I get frustrated with her because I felt like she kept treating me like a child, right? And I didn't like that feeling and I wanted her to change. And I don't know, 10-15 years went by, she didn't change. And I expressed my frustrations and all these things didn't change, right? She looked at me as her little baby, even though I was a grown man at the time. And it was frustrating and I had to learn to accept her. And it wasn't until maybe like five years ago where I fully had like acceptance of my mom, like this is who she is. It's not gonna change, but I can create boundaries. and make sure I set a boundary for myself so it doesn't affect me as much and just love her for who she is. And it's been a beautiful experience for me. I feel a lot more joy thinking about my mom knowing that this is the way she is and it's okay as long as I put boundaries in place. But why do you think it's so hard for us to accept the people we love the most?

Because we would rather put the duty of doing the work on others. In the situation you just described with your mother, if she would have changed when you were 21, ugh, the easiness.

So much easier, right?

So much easier. But if you had to place a boundary, ugh, the work you had to do. Oh my gosh. We get so upset at people for making us. Why are they emailing me on vacation? because you're responding. How do you stop responding? You know, the work that we have to do in our relationships with people, it is, it's almost like we get upset with them for making us do the work when really they're just being themselves.

Yes.

If you don't want to be treated like a child, how do you become more of an adult?

Create boundaries.

You create those boundaries. So when your mom is like, tell me about your girlfriend, you're like, I don't want to talk about it. And then your mom is like, oh, he doesn't have to tell me everything anymore. So it's you doing that work. Your mom can always ask, and you can always place that boundary.

Exactly. Just say, I don't want to talk about it right now, mom, let's talk about something else or whatever.

And I need you to wash my clothes. I don't need you to figure out what I'm doing with my, I don't. You have to be the person to say that because your mom is operating in the capacity that she knows.

Absolutely, yeah. That's beautiful. What else do you think people get wrong about family dynamics, siblings, parents, kids, and what else should we need to know about this?

One of the things we get wrong is that if we are honest about what the relationship is, that we will lose our love for the person.

Give me an example.

If I say my mother was unkind, that means I don't love her. You know, that doesn't mean you don't love her. It just means she was unkind. Maybe sometimes, maybe all the time. I don't know. But you could still love people who who do things to you or who cause you to feel a certain way. And sometimes we don't know that. We think if we say anything bad about someone, it means that we don't love them, that we're betraying them. And both of those things can exist. You know, when I find people talking about their parents, they will say all of these nice qualities because they're trying to make them not seem like a bad person. When we talk about our partners, we'll say, I really love this person. They've been there for me. They always listen to me. And then, we are trying to say, I really love them. And I don't want to say anything bad about them. And we don't have to protect the truth. We don't have to protect the person from everything that we feel about them. One thing we've been practicing in our house, I have two daughters. and they are at that age where they bicker all the time. And oh, she's annoying. And I say, Everyone in this house is annoying. You, your sister, your dad, the dog, the TV sometimes is too loud. This is normal in relationships. We're not gonna always get it right. And if we have an expectation of perfection in a relationship, sometimes I'm gonna say the wrong thing. and I want you to be able to, you know what? Sometimes you say the wrong thing. Sometimes you're unkind. Sometimes you annoy me. Sometimes that happens in relationships, and we should be able to talk about the totality of the relationship, not just the good parts. And, you know, they're really amazing in these ways, but, you know, I felt neglected when that really hurt when you said, I wish you would have done more of. Those are also things we should say. It's not all about all of the things going well all the time. A normal part of relationships is having some sort of conflict. We can't watch a movie without a little bit of conflict. I mean, yeah, even a good old rom-com, you need that conflict.

You need it. Yeah.

So it's a part of being in relationship that It doesn't have to be perfect to exist. We can talk about all parts of it. It doesn't mean that the relationship is bad or we don't want to be in it. It just means that we're being honest.

Where do you struggle the most in your relationships in terms of how you interpret relationships, how you react and respond? You're in this work constantly. You're working with people who are in breakdown, who are struggling, who are, you know, coming to you for guidance. But where do you see that you could grow the most personally in relationships?

I think having more understanding for people who are unwilling to do the work. Because I'm around people constantly who are doing the work. I'm a therapist, so everyone that I see is doing the work. A lot of people that I talk to on podcasts or, you know, in my online community, they're trying to do the work. So to be in personal relationships, where they're like, I'm fine, it's you.

It's hard to be compassionate about that.

It's like, what? We have all of this information available. Yeah, so that piece, that holding that grace of it hasn't always been easy for me. And it takes a lot of self-compassion and grace to get to a point of saying, you, know what? I did mess up. up. And I have to remember that because everybody's not in that space. And so some of those personal relationships, it's like, yeah, they're not in that space. And that's okay. I haven't always been in that space. How dare I look down on someone? Look at me now. I'm in a better space. It's like, I get it. It's tough because I wish sometimes I could unsee stuff. You know, it's like, I wish I didn't care about things so much anymore. Like, gosh, I wish that thing didn't make me sad, because it was a good life to not feel some things. Relationships, they were bad, but they were better because you had them. So I think that this knowing sometimes is like, oh, it's tough.

The awareness.

The awareness.

Consciousness. Seeing it. I hear you. Well, I'm excited about your book, Drama Free: A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships. I think a lot of people can relate to experiencing this now or at some point in their life dealing with someone in their family that was maybe unhealthy or just they struggled to really mend certain things. I want people to get this book. You've also got another book that's amazing as well. Get both of them. But again, get this for your whole family so you can go through the practices, the guides, all the tools in here that'll support you, create more emotional peace, create more love, more joy in your relationships. That's what I believe we're all seeking. We all want, we want more of that. Even if it's familiar to be in chaos, I don't think that's our true nature. That's just familiarity and a comfort zone. But it's time to break free of that. It's time to become drama free and break free of the unhealthy relationships. So I'm very excited about the book. and I want people to get this. Also, where can we go to support you, follow you, get the book, learn more about these things?

My website, NedraTawwab.com, everything is there. From there, you will be connected to my socials, to workshops, worksheets, everything that I'm doing.

Okay, cool. NedraTawwab.com, we'll have it all linked up. Your Instagram is amazing as well. I love everything you post over there. So make sure you guys go follow on social media as well. I asked you this question before, but we were virtual, so I'm curious if there's a different response. It's a question I ask everyone at the end called the Three Truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. It's your last day on earth, many years away. You live as long as you want to live, but it's the last day.

500.

You live 200, 500, doesn't matter to me. And you experience life on your terms. You create what you want. You have the life you want, you write more books, you help more people, whatever you wanna do, you live that life. But for whatever reason, all of your work and your message has to go with you when you pass. This book, social media, AI, whatever you create in the future is gone. So we don't have your words anymore, your message. But you get to leave three lessons behind, three things you know to be true from your experience that you would share as lessons for the world. to think about. What would be those three truths for you?

I would say live authentically, create your life and be present.

I love all three of those. Live authentically, create your life and be present. Before I ask the final question, Nedra, I want to acknowledge you again for your light. You bring such a light to the world. with your work, with your teaching, with your one-on-one practice, but also the messages you bring to all of us. And I'm so grateful that you are here to be of service to humanity because we need people like you. So I really acknowledge you for your gifts, your unique experiences, your perspective, and your ability to serve in the unique way that you do. It's beautiful. So thank you. My final question. What's your definition of greatness?

Definition of greatness. You know, I think love. Love is the definition of greatness. Without that, you know, what is life if we can't have love?

There you go. Thanks so much. Appreciate you. Thank you.

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