The Hidden Cost of Success Nobody Talks About | Rainn Wilson

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<LYRICS>Liberty Mutual.</LYRICS> And Doug. There's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

Hey everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?

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Before we got on here, we talked about what would make this powerful, and you said, you know, diving into personal authenticity, really diving into more personal matters. I'm curious, when was the most pain that you faced emotionally and internally in the last decade? Was it during the pandemic? Was it when you were on, you know, The Office? Was it after The Office? Was it before then? When was the time where you felt like, maybe I should be really happy, but actually I'm going through some challenge, some suffering, some identity crisis?

I love that question. I love that question. I really, really love that question.

Let's go, let's go, baby. Bring it in. Let's go, baby.

I will say that so many lights went off in my brain when you asked me that. And 'cause I think it's really important, you know, if you're seeking greatness, it's super important to say, like you said, to try and be authentic. I was not always authentic. I was a bull artist, really, for most of my life. I was an addict. I was a people pleaser. I just wanted to entertain. I was like the class clown. I just wanted people to like me. And I was in constant comparison with other people. So that's something that I've struggled with, really, really is trying to bring as much authenticity and integrity to my interactions as possible and to be vulnerable. Because if you want greatness— and I've just been reading and listening to your book and really enjoying it, and I'm going to switch the complimentary tables on you and just say what I love about your book is there's no bullshit. And here are like takeaways like you want to do this. Here's what to do. Nothing vague in the book at all. Like, here's hooks you can hang your hat on. And I just picture like some young dude trying to make a difference. And your book is like a Bible, you know? And I really, I really mean that. I've read a lot of like books that are— I won't say it's not self-help, but like motivational, like motivational kind of leadership, entrepreneurship or whatever. Yours is bigger than that. And I really appreciate that. But I do think that when we talked right before the interview, I was saying like sometimes messages don't get through unless you're really vulnerable and unless you're just as real as possible, because there's a lot of those folks out there aspiring to some kind of greatness and some kind of motivation and leadership that, that are struggling.

Yeah.

And they have character defects and they get sad some days and some days they wake up and they don't want to do a cold plunge at 6 a.m. in the morning, don't want to do a Tony Robbins 3-hour workout. Workout and, uh, you know, like a Mark Wahlberg 4 AM, 4 AM. Yeah. Like, um, protein all day. Like, it, it's hard, you know. So I think it's important to talk about like the struggle. So you, you're leading off with the struggle.

So when was the time that was the hardest for you? Well, in the last decade, I'm gonna—

but I'm gonna— I'm getting there, I'm getting there. You let me— I'm gonna get there.

I got you.

No, I'm on that. But I will say that 2 things before the last decade. So my wife and I have had a lot of struggles and a lot of ups and downs over the years. That was some hard stuff, but that was thankfully a while back. But also, like, and I've been thinking about this too, like, when I was on The Office and I had the first— I had been acting for 15 years professionally, and then all of a sudden I was on The Office. We almost got canceled like a dozen different times, and then All of a sudden we take off, we win the Emmy, we're a top 10 show. It becomes, you know, everyone is getting movie deals out of it. And I remember back to that time and how kind of sick I was that I didn't have the spiritual tools that I needed and the psychological tools and resilience that I needed to go through that. Fame is a very weird thing. That'll fuck you up, number one. Number two, I wasn't happy with what I had. I mean, like, to go from total obscurity to be kind of a weird-looking, goofy character actor and all of a sudden get the role of a lifetime and be lauded and loved and winning awards and whatnot. Like, that's enough, Rainn. If I could go back in time to those early years of The Office, you know, in 2006, '07, '08, and I was always— and I was like, But I want more. I want a movie career like Jack Black has or Will Ferrell, or I want, you know, this, or I want my own media company, or I want my own success here on my own development deal here. I want to be the spokesperson for this. Like, I want more money here. Like, what? When is it enough? Like, when is it ever just enough? And I wish I could have just taken a deep breath and be like, this is enough. This is great. I get to do 22 episodes a year. This amazing character. I'm making a really nice living. I won't say like I've made it. I want to do more creatively from a business standpoint, but I wish— so when you, when you asked me that, I think about those really troubled times that I should have been enjoying and I wasn't able to go to gratitude. Yeah. I mean, I enjoyed my time on the set and with the cast. They were amazing and we all got along great and I love each and every one of them. We were like this, wonderful family. We weren't even a dysfunctional family. We were a pretty functional family.

Right, right.

Like, we'd come in every day and we would make comedy and get along and high-five each other and, and, uh, eat too much, uh, from craft services. But, um, yeah, so I was thinking about that. But then I'm gonna, I'm gonna go there, and there's a chapter in the book and it's called Death and How to Live It. And, uh, my dad dying 2 and a half years ago, right after COVID started, uh, was really, uh, devastating for me. My mom left me and my dad when I was about a year and a half, so I, I stayed with him my whole life. So my primary bond— I didn't get to know my mom until I was like 15, so my primary bond was with my dad, right? It was always there for me. We had our ups and downs, we had our struggles and we bumped heads a lot and we didn't see eye to eye a lot. But it was, it was really devastating at a core level to lose him. And it kind of shifted a lot of things about my perspective about life.

What was the biggest lesson he taught you while he was here and the biggest lesson he's taught you since transitioning into a different way?

You're going to make me cry, Lewis. I will say that. Two lessons. One is my dad, when he came into a room, always made it a better place. He would always have a positive thing to say. He would always uplift someone. He would tell a joke. He would inspire. He would compliment like, that's a great jacket and oh, I love your office and all the light bulbs are great and So nice to meet you guys behind the camera. Where are you from? Like, he always had some way to uplift every room he came in. And, and you know what? And again, I didn't really appreciate that until he was gone. And when I was thinking about eulogizing him, I was like, what is the single thing that if I could point to one thing that my dad did consistently that made the world a better place, it was, it was he uplifted every room he went into. And that was, that was really special. Sometimes I'm able to do that, but sometimes I'm not. And the other thing, and I put the inscription of my book and I said, dedicated to my, to my father. And I said, thanks for teaching me about the soul. And I feel like my dad had a deep understanding from his faith that we are spiritual beings having a human experience, that our reality is spiritual. We are heart-based beings and we are in this physical world. We get 80 or 90 years. He got 79 years to go around the sun and to do the best with what we got and to try and leave the world a little bit better than when we came into it. And that perspective has stayed with me my whole life. And I went through a time when I was an atheist and I had rejected faith and, and all of that nonsense and, you know, religious BS and whatnot. I didn't want anything to do with that for a good decade and a half. But I did always kind of keep with me that, that idea that we are essentially are spiritual beings.

That's beautiful. What would you say that's the biggest lesson he's taught you since transitioning?

Well, the, the, that lesson was driven home when I saw him on the table of a hospital bed and it was just like one of those medical shows where they were doing open heart surgery.

Oh man.

And he had, he had to do quadruple bypass and they have to take vein to put it in and they couldn't find a vein that wasn't affected by his arterial sclerosis. So he was 12 hours and they couldn't save him.

Oh man. And you were there for it?

Yeah.

Yeah. Like in parts of it or a couple minutes here and there?

Well, it was, it was the weirdest thing because it was during COVID You could only have one guest, one visitor. So I went in in the morning before the surgery and we hung out for like an hour. I was sure he was gonna, This operation has a 90%, 95% success rate.

So you're like, he's— I'll see him soon.

I'll see you soon. Wow. And I literally was like, I literally hugged him. We were visiting. I was like, you're going to be great, Dad. Love you. I went and played pickleball. Wow. I went to Hobby Lobby and got some supplies and like, and then all of a sudden we're like, wonder how that's going. And then we got a very concerned call at like 12 or 1 o'clock and we're like, oh, and then we had to wait another 6 hours before we kind of found out the situation. And, um, but he was still barely alive but losing his blood pressure, and he had some kind of blood sepsis. And, and it was a kind of thing of like deciding to essentially unplug him. But the doctor was like, listen, he's going to be dead within the hour. And it was like one of those hospital shows where it's like squeaky doctor shoes on the linoleum floor and white coats, white coats, machines and beep beep. And that ventilator is going, no way. And it was incredibly sad. It was weeping. And but what is the, what is the kind of bounty that comes out of it? What's the takeaway? His body is lying there on the table, and I see little things about him, the way his hair sticks up here and there, and the way his ears are, and his kind of ruddy cheeks, and his kind of old man hands. And, and, and I, and it hit me like, oh, that's not my father. That's not my father. That is the vessel that carried my father for 79 years. I'm looking at this vessel once the heart had stopped, and, but that's not the reality of who he is. And that goes hand in hand with that lesson. So that's what he's kind of taught me upon his passing. Again, just really solidified that the light that we all have, the The emotion, the love that we bring, the, you know, that the spirit that we bring to interacting with one another, that's our reality. You know, this body houses us and we should take care of it and maximize it and, and love it. And it's part of who we are, but it's not all of who we are.

Wow. Yeah, it's interesting. I lost my dad last year, and it was— it's been an interesting year of knowing that he's no longer physically in this world. I don't know if that's something that you've been experiencing.

It's like, okay, do you get a thing sometimes you're like, I'm gonna text my dad, or I gotta call him, and you, and you think about it, and then you're like, I wanna—

well, here's the thing, I had a, you know, it's kind of a tragic experience because he had a a car accident, I guess 18 years ago now, that he had a severe brain trauma. So he was in a coma for a few months after that. He eventually woke up. He shouldn't have made it, but he survived. And he kind of lived 17 years, you know, in his home watching TV. And that was it because he didn't have the ability to work anymore. He lost his memory. He wasn't— he could walk and talk some, but it wasn't, wasn't the same.

Yeah.

So it was like he always had to ask me, "Wait, didn't you go? Didn't you play football?" Even though he was at every football game. He'd forget my name sometimes and just kind of have to remind him every time you saw him, telling him the same story where he'd be like, "Oh yeah, that's right." He just didn't have the spirit that he once had. And so it was kind of 17 years of a loss. He was physically here, but but emotionally not here. And then when he passed, it was almost like I finally could grieve for the first time because I wasn't able to really grieve him not being around but physically being here because I didn't have those conversations with him. So that was, that was challenging. I almost have more peace now that he has passed, but it's— I still look back at my 21-year-old self in sadness for him that he didn't get to have really the father And that was their fault.

And how much did that motivate you that he was in this kind of half-life in a way?

It, when it happened, I was, I was, I had just gotten through an injury playing college football the day that the night he got in the accident, the next day I had a football game and we didn't know if he was alive or dead. And so my siblings were like, I was like, what do I, what do we do? He was in New Zealand. I was in Ohio. He was on vacation and I was like, do I play? Do I not play? Like, what would he want me to do?

I don't know.

I ended up playing on the second to last play of the game. I broke 3 ribs actually in that game. And I thought, okay, my season's over. I don't know if my dad's alive still or if he's dead. What do I do now? When he came back, I got very clear that life is finite. Like it could happen in a moment like this. Like I got injured. My career could be over in a moment. He got injured. His life could be over in a moment. So I made a decision that day that I'm always going to go after my dreams no matter what. And I'm going to— I'm going to do the best to have joy in my life and fun in my life and play. So I went after everything. And even though I was afraid, I didn't let the fear hold me back because I was like, my dad was larger than life. And if this could happen to him in a moment, then if my life is over tomorrow, at least I want to enjoy this day in this moment. And so it gave me a lot of permission to go after what I wanted. Now, for a couple of years after football was done, I was living on my sister's couch for a year and a half and I had no way to make money. I was struggling in 2008. I was broke. Hadn't graduated college yet.

You should have called me, man. I was on The Office.

There we go. I wish I'd have known you then. Yeah. And I remember I— here's the thing about, I guess, losing my father early on. There was no one to rely on. It was like I had to step up into becoming somewhat of a man for myself at that point in terms of like, okay, I've got to learn how to make money. I've got to learn how to do my taxes. I got to learn how to do these things. I can't just ask my dad for money as a 22-year-old anymore. And so in a way, it gave me courage and permission to kind of do the thing that I'm doing now. I don't think I'd be doing what I'm doing if he didn't get in that accident, then I don't think I would have had the courage. And so in some ways, I think it was meant to happen.

Wow.

And before he left, the day before he left, I was sitting with him and there was something off about him. It was really weird. I'd never seen this. And it was almost like he knew this was going to happen.

Wow.

And he told me before he left, I'm going to go on a spiritual journey. And it was kind of weird because I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, have fun, Dad. Like, you're going to New Zealand. You've wanted to do this for a while. He's like, yeah, but I'm going to take my books. I'm going to practice. I'm going to go deeper into my books on a spiritual journey, Bible and the Science and Health, which is what he was practicing, Christian Science at the time. I was like, I hope you have a great time. And so when I got the call that he got in his accident, I was like, yeah, I think he predicted this. And we all needed to go on this kind of spiritual journey in this material world when this happened. But it's been interesting since his passing. Because it feels weird not being able to know that my father is here. And it sounds like you had a pretty good relationship with your father, right, for many years?

Yeah, we did.

At least you were in conversation. And so when you have that and then there's a loss or it's not there anymore, how have you been able to spiritually and emotionally cope with that loss physically?

It really has to do with grief and the grieving process, which is not something we talk a lot about in Western culture, but it's just— it's— I had to learn how to grieve. So, you know, this good year and a half after he died, I would just sometimes burst into tears. I'll never forget my assistant just came by my office once and I just had I've seen some picture of him or something like that. And I was just sobbing. And my sister walked in and he was like, hey, do you want to— oh. And it's like, it's like, I'm like, it's okay. I'm just crying 'cause my dad died. And he's like, oh, okay, I'll come back. I'm like, it's all right. I'm like, oh, oh, oh.

Wow.

But you grieve so that you can go through, you know? And if you don't grieve and you don't learn how to grieve, you get stuck. And that's a good life lesson. Put that in your next book and smoke it.

Right. Exactly.

But I think that there's a lot of truth to that. Like, we have to— in fact, I had, um, I've been playing a lot of tennis and I'm on this like USTA tennis team and we compete and stuff like that. And I'm not very good, but, um, I'm getting better. But I remember those taking lessons with this tennis teacher named Zach Kleiman, and he's here in LA, and we actually interview him in the Geography of Bliss show because we do an episode in LA. And And he said, like, every mistake you make, like, you know, you've got a clear ball and boom, you hit it in the net or something like that. Like, grieve it. Like, grieve the loss. Grieve the loss.

The miss.

Grieve the miss. Really? And he's like, feel it. And then you're through it. And then you're on. And then you're like, okay, what can I improve next time? And then you're onto the next thing. But if you skip the grief, I— you can get, you can get stuck, you can get blocked in a kind of like a muscular self-will. But there's something about like, oh, I got it, I got it. Oh, okay, what did I do? Oh, I took my eye off the ball, or, oh, I didn't go low to high, or I, I got ahead of myself. You know, just keep breathing. Okay, I got this one. And then you're back and you're, and you're ready to go. But his philosophy is to, to grieve the mistakes.

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And Doug. There's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together.

We're married.

Ah! Me to a human, him to a bird.

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league anyways.

Only pay for what you need. Libertymutual.com.

Liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty.

Do you think, um, you understood how to grieve when you were kind of rising into fame with The Office and kind of those years with those seasons? Did you understand grief?

I didn't. I didn't understand that.

And how did you process frustration, pain, anger?

Not very well. Yeah, I didn't process it very well. Um, I had a lot of addiction issues in my 20s and went through a drug and alcohol phase, porn phase, kind of anything that could kind of help me cope and help kind of medicate discomfort and pain. I used for a long period of time until I really have been, you know, in active like therapy and recovery and, and all that nonsense for a good while now. And You know, it's so interesting because when you choose to be an actor, you're signing up for disappointment. So if you're an accountant, not much disappointment there. Every, every life comes with disappointments, but you're gonna have your, you know, 27 clients or your 12 clients or whatever, and you can have a successful business for 50 years and just be a good accountant and you won't. But actor, you're constantly putting yourself out there like, hey, I'm auditioning for this.

Hey, pick me, pick me.

Here's the script. Or hey, can we get this? Or, and then you do get to make, you know, a movie or something like that and then it gets canceled or it bombs or— and I've been involved in plenty of those. So it's, it's been an interesting learning dance and it took me until, oh, I don't know, my mid-late 40s to kind of learn how to live with kind of constant disappointment and frustration and So this lesson comes back, which is grieve the disappointment, feel disappointed, feel frustrated, be, ugh, like, you know, and then, and then, and then move on. Like how, and then how do we fix it? But you have to, you have to go through that feeling before, before you move on, I believe.

What is it, I mean, what was it like not being famous and then being famous? And were you happier before or happier after?

That's so interesting. It's, um, for someone who has had, you know, addiction issues and alcohol issues and, um, and then kind of a messed up family situation and essentially spending most of my adult life feeling unlovable. And then you get on a TV show and then the weirdest thing happens. Lewis, all of a sudden, I'll never forget it. Like getting famous from The Office, like people coming up and going, I love you.

You're like, so like they're touching you and they're grabbing, like hugging you.

I love you.

Take photos of you.

Oh, I love you. My daughter loves you. My son loves you. We love— like there's all this, but it's not really love. They really love getting entertained by the character that I play. Which is one small cog in this big machine called the office. So that is a, that is a mind trip. I would say if you were unhappy and you are wired for unhappiness and you are making life choices that kind of keep you in an unhappy mode, ungrateful mode, uncontent mode, a discontent mode, it doesn't matter what the circumstances are, you're going to be unhappy and discontent and imbalanced.

Even if you're famous and have money and people want opportunities with you and you have more followers and all that stuff, we think that that's going to solve our problems.

And guess what? That kind of contentment, that kind of like true, that solidity of well-being, it can't be fixed from anything outside of yourself. So I was discontent and unhappy and a scrappy, unemployed, broke actor, you know?

Yeah.

And trying to make my next rent. In fact, I would say about, I don't know, 9 months before I got cast on The Office, like we were so broke that I had to pay rent by putting it on my credit card.

And what is this, 2005, '06?

They asked for, for, That was like late 2003, early 2004. And, and so if you're discontent, you'll be happy no matter what the circumstances. So then I become famous and then I have all this money and, and movie opportunities and lots of doors opening for me all of a sudden for the first time in my life, you know, heads of movie studios are like, we want to really meet with Rainn Wilson. We love his stuff. And maybe there's a movie he can do like So those doors started to open. But if you're in chronic discontent and feeling like I don't have enough, I am not enough and I don't have enough, it doesn't matter what comes at you. You can all of a sudden say— someone could come up and say, by the way, you're the King of Scotland. We just found the paperwork. Here's the key. Here's your own kingdom and here's $1 billion. Good luck. Like you would find a way to be unhappy, right?

So So are you more unhappy, happier before when you were paying rent on a credit card or happier after?

I was equally unhappy. Well, I was equally unhappy. So I tell you, it was nice to pay off my student loans. Yeah, nice to have a little money. And I'm not going to lie, that's an important part of the deal is to when you don't have to worry about when and how you're going to pay bills. And I know you've been there. That's a big— Yeah.

That's nice.

That is a big deal. Some happiness experts are kind of like, oh, none of that matters. Like, no, it matters.

Yeah, of course.

But yeah, I was— I would say if you looked at me, you know, 2001, 2003, I was pretty unhappy and dissatisfied. And then I got The Office and there was a big rush. But if you cut, cut into me in 2006, '07, '08, right in there, '09, those were some pretty unhappy years at the same time. Yeah.

So on a scale, let's call it the, uh, the self-love inner peace scale. Yeah. 1 to 10, 1 being miserable and zero happiness and 10 being total peace inside and self-love. Where were you before and after?

I would say I was at a 3 and then maybe 2 or 4 or 5.

Wow.

Once I was well known and then And then it's been a long struggle and now I'm doing much better.

Yeah. Where would you say you are now?

I would say it's a daily struggle and I have to do daily work, but I'm really at an 8, maybe a 9. Yeah.

When do you feel the most loved and the most enough?

I think in my contemplation practice, my mindfulness practice, my meditation practice. I view meditation as something like when your computer is acting all funky and you have to reboot it and like the apps aren't working right and the pages and, and then you reboot it and then all of a sudden, like it's moving, moving smoothly again. Like my meditation practice allows me that. I also combine that with a prayer practice. I do believe in God. I believe that there are there is an incredible divine force out there for us to tap into that is the source of love itself. I would equate God much more to just the force of love, which is synonymous with the force of gravity, than any kind of like guy or dude or deity or some old man with a beard or someone, you know, like a Marvel superhero shooting their Sure, you know, like, I'm gonna give Lewis this thing and I'm gonna give him this parking spot, I'm gonna give her cancer. And like, um, like, so when I'm able to kind of tap into that force of love, when I'm able to, um, you know, Annie Lamott, uh, great, uh, thinker and writer, humorist, uh, she wrote a book called Help, Thanks, Wow. And those are the three prayers: help, Thanks and wow. I think it's so brilliant. I love that book so much. So simple. But when you're connecting with that great spirit, like help, like, hey, I could really use help with this. I'm struggling with this. Perfectly okay. And thank you. Thank you for what I have. Thank you for the gratitude. And then just wow. Like the miracle of being alive, the miracle of everything.

Wow.

What do you wish people knew about money, fame, And success, and also how to create and feel enough and happy with all three of those as well.

Well, if I knew the answer to that, I would write my own bestselling book.

Lewis, do you feel like you've— so that's a constant journey for you to figure out how to manage those things and also find that peace and happiness and self-acceptance for yourself. And also, I'm curious, do you feel like there are Anyone in Hollywood or any celebrities with, you know, fame and money and success who have mastered this and also finding like true deep sense of I am enough. I don't need to compare myself to others and one-up everyone else in Hollywood or in the success world. I have enough. I am enough. I'm becoming more, but I don't need it to feel more enough.

Yeah. Some of the most unhappy people I've met have been multimillionaires in Hollywood and on both sides of the cameras, like directors, writers, actors, star, big stars, agents. A friend of mine told me, like, if you're ever in an airport and you're just looking for the gate of people flying to L.A. and you didn't look up on the board, just look for the gate with the most beautiful people who also look the most miserable.

There you go.

It's kind of true.

Wow.

Yeah, there's so much to talk about, to unpack around that. I mean, gosh, I think that number one, it's really important to understand, for people to understand that there is a lot of struggle going on and people might really present well on social media and in, on talk shows and in, in their books and, and whatnot. But people are struggling and, you know, big, I'm not saying I'm a big star, but like big stars that I know that are very successful. They really have struggles. They've struggled in interpersonal relationships and in doubt and self-esteem. And I feel like the road to self-love is just a road through struggles. You know, this brings me to this Buddhist idea, and I talk a lot about this in Soul Boom. I reference Buddhism a lot because I've learned so much from studying it. But the Buddha has, as you know, the Four Noble Truths, which are kind of the foundation of Buddhist thought and the elimination of suffering. So one of the key, not the only thing the Buddha came for, but the Buddha came to help relieve suffering. So life is suffering. That's the number one truth. Life is suffering. It's interesting because in Sanskrit, the word is actually dukkha. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right. But dukkha means dissatisfaction. It means, it means struggle, conflict, overwhelm, light pain. It's like the— it's just the pain of being alive. So I would interpret it as saying like life is about the pain of being alive. And when you know that, I find that very helpful to me. When I, when I come back to that, I'm like, I'm struggling, I'm disappointed here. I wish this outcome had been different. Oh, I didn't get that job. And then, but when I can come back to like, oh, but that's what life's all about. So what do I do now? Like, oh, am I clutching? Am I grasping? Am I wanting to control outcomes? And am I wanting people to like me? Am I wanting all this stuff outside of me? And I'm desperately grasping at all that stuff. Oh, that's the source of my suffering. Because when you're in that kind of zen mode. You can be like, oh, life is suffering. And guess what? All these things didn't happen. And I get to feel disappointment. It's like a breath, you know, it's like in the tennis game, it's like, ah, disappointment breath. And then a new breath.

Yeah. And then play.

And then the next. Exactly. And then you're on, you're on to the next play, but you don't carry that disappointment with you, but you don't stuff it down somewhere and stick it in a closet.

You don't not acknowledge it. You acknowledge it and then you move on. Exactly. You refocus your attention.

You breathe it, you experience it, and then you move on and you heal in the doing.

What do you think you— if you could have told yourself 3 things about what you're about to go through with The Office and all the things that came with it, all the amazing things and maybe the more amplified, challenging things that you face as well, what do you wish you could have told yourself the day before, you know, getting that role or the day before the first, you know, time on set to be able to manage it all? And love yourself deeper, or did you just need more time to kind of—

So I'm going to get— I'm going to get a little mystical.

Okay.

This might be a little mystical for your audience. I'm in. Okay. So I'm a member of the Baha'i faith. So the son of the founder of the Baha'i faith is a man named Abdul-Baha, and his name means servant of glory. Anyways, Abdul-Baha, about 100 years ago, came to the United States. and a reporter wanted to interview this famous prophet and was like, hey, do Baha'is believe in Satan? And, and Abdu'l-Baha said, yes, we do. Satan is the insistent self. And I just love that. So as opposed to like a red guy with a pitchfork underneath the ground, under the ground, like whispering in your ears and causing you temptation. And he's like, the forces of darkness. He's got his demon army or whatever. Like, it's in here. It's in here. The insistent self. What does that mean? Well, it's the ego, you know? So, and that goes back again to Buddhist thought. It goes back to the most ancient spiritual writings in the world, the Vedas and Upanishads and the Vedantic practice and Tibetan Buddhism, where your struggle is the ego, right? And In Islam, jihad, the greater jihad is the struggle within yourself. The lesser jihad is like if there's enemies that are attacking you, you fight those enemies. But the jihad that everyone is fighting is that struggle within ourselves against our own ego. So this idea of struggling against— because the ego, what does the ego get? And again, ego's tough because we want a healthy self-esteem. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about that, that part of yourself that is like envious and competitive to a fault and wants to put yourself to— it's a narcissistic part of yourself, wants to put yourself above someone else. It compares yourself to others that wants to like obtain and get and try and satisfy itself like a dragon with its hoard. And so I would have maybe shown myself some writings about the struggle with the ego. If I'm cutting back to 2005, 2006, and those years, I had a lot of ego struggles. And even though I had done a lot of thinking and meditating and reading about spiritual practices and mindfulness and whatnot, I was not able to put that in play. So It just became life after The Office became, you know, like a pachinko machine. You know, the little ball goes, you know, like that. Like my life and my ego became like a pachinko machine where it's like this success and here's a bunch of money and you get this movie. Oh, the movie bombed, but oh, you get a different one and this and this and all they want to do and you won this award and oh, you lost the Emmy to Jeremy Piven and oh, this is it. So it's like, So it's all of this stuff outside of yourself, but where is that? Where's that garden that we can nurture and grow within ourselves? Because that garden you can take with you anywhere.

Yeah. When did you feel like you actually got into that space of practicing it? You know, how many years did it take for you to finally be like, okay, you know, this pinball machine is going everywhere, ups and downs, like success and ego and fame and losses. When you start to say, oh, this is all happening outside of me. Yeah, but let me start to nurture and tend to this garden inside of me for more peace and inner prosperity, not outer prosperity.

I'm going to be really honest with you. I, I know I don't look it. I'm 57 years old.

We're great, man.

48, 49.

Okay.

Is when that started. So when I was really able to put into practice some of the spiritual guidance that I had been studying, some of the therapeutic and positive psychology studies that I'd been studying. And for those— and I want to say for those watching at home that might have a problem with spirituality or God or religion, and, and first of all, spirituality and religion are totally separate thing, not totally separate, but they are separate things, then that's fine. Put that aside. And there's a wonderful reservoir of information that you have drawn on, on all 1,400 of your episodes from the positive psychology movement. And so positive psychology always arrives at the same data points that ancient wisdom, wisdom from faith traditions arrives at. Goes through a different way. But one, you can learn a great deal from following what, you know, great teachers, you know, like, you know, Jonathan Haidt has The Happiness Hypothesis and so many great books on happiness and podcasts on happiness and well-being. And Arthur Brooks and David Brooks and all the Brooks. There's— you— those— it's the same wisdom. It's just kind of packaged a little differently.

Sure. Wow. So about 8, 9 years ago is when you kind of started to tend to your inner garden.

Isn't that pathetic?

That's not pathetic.

I should have had it at 33.

Okay, Jesus. Yeah. I think, you know, I wish I could have learned these things a lot sooner as well, but it wasn't really until 2 years ago when I felt a sense of peace in my heart that I haven't never felt.

Wow.

And that's when I hit 38. I just turned 40.

What happened there?

I only felt peace when I was single, but when I was in relationships, I felt trapped and I felt a sense of not enoughness and never going to be able to live up to someone's standards and people pleasing and all these things that you mentioned as well. Similar things. And I never—

Sounds like a little codependence going on there too.

Yeah. And it was, you know, I was afraid because my parents were trapped. And so I grew up watching a model of them not really accepting or loving one another. And I didn't know which night if it was going to be like peaceful or chaotic. You know, every night you just didn't know how they were going to be screaming or reacting or cold shoulder. So I just didn't have a healthy model. I don't blame them at all. It all developed me in a certain way to be a curious learner of this and try to like support others going through the same challenge. It's one of the reasons why I left home at 13. Because I was like, get me out of here. It was just very up and down, chaotic at home. My brother was also in prison for 4 and a half years when I was 8 till I was 12. So it was just like a lot of sadness, grief, loss, pain within the family dynamic. And I, and I know lots of families go through their own unique family dynamic of dysfunction. So this was just my own perspective. And I just went after a feeling as opposed to being the feeling. I went after wanting something and desiring people and then needing to make sure that it worked out and going all in on it, even when I had to change who I was to try to make them, quote unquote, happy. The partners I chose were never happy with me. They didn't accept me for who I was, and I don't blame them. I chose them for a reason. I need to learn lessons. And it wasn't until I became fully peaceful and happy and on a healing journey of who I was and everything about my past, really grieving all the different parts of me. That's when I felt peace. It's going back to the first thing you talked about, which was grieving. I did about, I don't know, 9 months of inner child healing and therapy.

And, you know, I'm sorry to interrupt. I want to— please go ahead, pick it up from there. But I just want to say, like, see, I think this is super important that you're— you can share with your audience your struggle. And to say, here I am, not really kind of figuring out how to be at peace in a relationship until my late 30s. I don't have it all figured out. I struggle. I think that's— I think that's so great that you're— that you're willing to share that.

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And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

Hey everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?

Oh no, we help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league anyways.

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I share, I share on here all the time about all my struggles. I kind of am like the guinea pig of breakdowns, you know, here's what I'm— how I'm suffering and struggling and what I'm, you know, working out with my health, relationships, money, spirituality.

So you talk about the inner child work. Did you do some therapy?

Yeah, 9 years, uh, 9 months, I was like— I had a screen saver on my phone of my 5-year-old self, you know, not from a narcissistic point of view, like, oh, look at me as a kid, but more of like, oh, look how sad I was and look how much I was suffering and unsure of myself I was, and always asking, why am I even here? What's the point of this? And just getting into trouble a lot. And so having compassion for my 5, 6, 7, 8-year-old self and putting myself in the mystical situations spiritually where I'm there having a conversation and comforting my 5-year-old self as a 38-year-old adult with the wisdom and experience that I have now. Those experiences reunited me with a broken memory, a memory of mine that was broken, bruised, and hurt psychologically, emotionally, spiritually. And this allowed me to create harmony and congruency with the parts of myself that I was most ashamed of. This was also the time when I was sexually abused by a man that I didn't know. 5 years old. My second memory is of being sexually abused in a bathroom by a man that I didn't know. And I never grieved that. Like you said, going back to grieving, I never even acknowledged it for 25 years. It wasn't until 10 years ago when I started to open up and talk about that and process it with support that released a pressure valve within me that had been building up for 25 years, which drove me to be— to excel in athletics and business and getting results. I was like, I'm going to prove them wrong. No one's going to hurt me ever again. But by not acknowledging or grieving the pain and the sadness of the 5-year-old, the 9-year-old, the 13-year-old, the 27-year-old, you know, and all these different breakdowns I had, and always going to the next point without grieving the loss, it caused many breakdowns in my life physically, relationally, financially, when on the outside things look good, but on the inside it was a 1, 2, or 3.

Wow, that's powerful.

And so 10 years ago, right when I started the show, was a part of that journey of healing and finding people that could share their stories so I could try to learn from them and apply some of these lessons. But 2 years ago specifically is when I went even deeper, um, because I was just— I was really struggling in a previous relationship. And so I did about 6 months of intensive weekly therapy of healing the inner child within myself.

That's great.

And then doing it from the different parts of my childhood, from 12 to, you know, 18 and 27, and kind of marrying all those memories, creating new meaning from them into where I'm at now. That's what allowed me— there was a moment after about, I don't know, 6 or 7 months of this therapy practice I was doing.

What was it called?

It's just working with a coach.

Okay.

Yeah, therapist. Yeah. And but it was just very intense. I was doing like 7, 8-hour sessions, you know, on Saturdays. I was just like, I need to figure this out. I'll do whatever it takes. I'm sick of pain. I'm sick of the suffering. Tell me what to practice, try, do all of whatever you want to do. I'll do it.

Okay, let me, let me, let me say. Yeah, yeah. Can I tell you a story along those same lines? People are watching and probably like, when did Lewis turn into Oprah? So when I was struggling a lot, there's a while back, I went to this therapy retreat center called PCS in Scottsdale, and I did a couple different weeks there and different kinds of sessions and different kinds of work. One of the things they have you do there, not for everyone, but they have, they do inner child work. It's therapy 12 hours a day. You stay offsite, but you're in and it's very intense.

Wow.

They have you on the first day go to the mall to the Build-A-Bear workshop. And you build your inner child.

Shut up.

So I went and I built my inner child.

That's amazing.

As a bear.

I love this.

And you name it.

That's beautiful.

And you have conversations and you carry it with you the entire week.

That is a beautiful exercise.

The entire week. So it's like kind of embarrassing, like, 'cause I was like walking around.

Yeah, I know. Here's the thing, a lot of people that are watching or listening, they've heard me talk about this stuff for a while, but if there's I'm always trying to be a Trojan horse. You look at me, I'm this big jock-looking guy, 6'4", former athlete, all these different things. And I try to draw—

Doofus looking, look like an IQ of 13, farmhand kind of.

My IQ was pretty low. My EQ is high, but IQ is very low.

I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

But the goal has always been to draw people in that want success, that want greatness, that want you know, money, all these different things and talk about these things, but also talk about the healing modalities that allow you to feel peaceful and enough when you have the championship, when you have the money, when you have the role at the office. Because, you know, I was great at sports and accomplished a lot, but I'd never felt I loved myself or that I was lovable, kind of like what you talked about. Then I transitioned it to making money and building a business, and I built a multimillion-dollar company and all these different things. But I still didn't feel lovable. So I was like, well, how do I get to this place where I can actually accept and love me? And so this process, which sounds similar, but I love the idea of having a physical representation of your inner child. That is a beautiful experience. And, and I'm assuming you had conversations and did exercises and did some weird things that left— if people are watching, they'd be like, okay, and if you're crazy, man.

And if someone was doing it and left and left their inner child like, oh my gosh, how or even went to like go get a cup of coffee and left it, they would— the therapist would be like, what the fuck are you doing? You're going to leave your child there? Like, and it was this training of like, wow, I, in heart, and when I was a child, I was so vulnerable and I suffered so much trauma and pain. But guess what? I get to re-parent myself.

And this is beautiful.

I get to hold my own hand. Oh my God. I get to see baby Rain, baby Lewis and give him the love that he didn't get when his mom took off when he's a year and a half old. And my dysfunctional dad was stuck with this big, weird-looking toddler, you know, and I get to be part of that process. And it was, it was really powerful. It's a lot of, a lot of really intense stuff.

Here's the thing. When I was 21, if I would have watched this conversation or heard this, I'd have been like, what a bunch of You know, a bunch of wusses, suck it up. Don't be such a baby, right? I said like, whatever, because I was just in more of an ego mindset. And I'd have been like, just tell me how to make money. Just tell me to be happy. Just tell me how to like, just, I want to be successful. Yeah. Just teach me that. Like, touch on those. What are those steps? What are those skills? And I hope people watching or listening, you know, specifically men, if you're watching or listening, that you can just listen and hear this perspective. You don't have to listen to me, listen to you and hear this perspective of, I truly believe that the highest form of currency right now is peace. Is it? Because you said you can have lots of money and still be miserable and unhappy. The highest form of currency I think is peace. Peace with your relationships, peace with your career choices or the business you have, peace with your health, and peace with yourself. And when we don't have that, it just becomes harder. And so for me, it's figuring out how to stay in congruency and alignment with self and be in a peaceful state. It doesn't mean we're not going to experience stress and challenge and overwhelm and letdown and all these things, but doing the best to stay in peace will allow us to feel better, make the people around us feel better, and make better decisions in our lives. So I hope people are listening. I hope the women listening share this with their, their male friends and, and know it from two different individuals of different backgrounds. You as the career and, you know, in acting and all these different things that you've done in media, me from sports and business, that it, it matters to make money, but if you're miserable and you're hurting yourself in that process, then it's just amplifying the pain that you already have. And so this is the work, in my opinion.

Amen.

You don't have to, you don't have to go to Build-A-Bear and make an inner child, you know, physical representation and hold the bear around all day. But I feel like do something that works for you. Yeah, do something that works for you. And for me, doing intensive therapy weekly for months supported me. For you, this experience, this 2-week experience worked for you. And it's an ongoing journey of healing. From my experience, it doesn't just happen overnight and you're healed. For me, it's an ongoing practice.

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that's beautifully, beautifully said, really. And so important. And I love that currency of peace. Like, if you can gain peace in your inner garden, I like to use that metaphor. And well-being and feel like I am enough. I've shared this before. I actually, our mutual friend Justin Baldoni, I talked to him about this, that when I was first starting the therapy process, my therapist was having me say daily affirmations and gave me a list. Here's a list of like them. And it's just, oh, give me a break.

Like, what were the few things you remember?

Yes. Like, I'm a good father. I'm worthy of love. The first one on the list is, I am enough.

Wow.

And I picked it up and I was like, I am enough. Nope, not doing that. It was so hard for me to look at or think about saying that. And he was like, well, that's the one that you have to say. So I had to hang it on the mirror every morning. I had to get up and brush my teeth and look in the mirror and go, I am enough. And it's, do you remember Stuart Smalley, that Saturday Night Live character? He's like, I'm good enough. Uh-huh. Gosh darn it.

And Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Al Franken played this character, Stuart Smalley. Insert clip. But it's corny, it's schmaltzy. Uh-huh. But it really helped me. But it also helped me to see like, wow, I really don't believe that I am enough.

That's the interesting thing. How do you— because I think when we say a false affirmation that we haven't actually believed yet, sometimes it's like, okay, well, we're lying to ourselves. When, when you don't believe it and yet you're looking at it, you're saying it over and over again. So I love that practice, but it's like we have our, our emotional state has to catch up to it and actually learn how to process, grieve, heal, and actually believe it. So how did you build yourself in your— in overcoming the insecurities or the self-doubt in order to actually believe that you were enough, not just say the affirmation every day?

Well, that's a really good point, and I hadn't thought about that, but I agree with you. I think it can be dangerous to kind of say a bunch of affirmations that you don't really believe, like you're going to manifest them, but you don't have that organic, authentic kind of kernel of belief inside your, your gut. But I think that what it did for me is it kind of, it's kind of like in the show Kung Fu, which I reference in the book Soul Boom, is one of my favorite television shows of all time. He's like, when you can snatch the pebble from my hand, then you will be ready to go. And that That's a runner through the show. And finally, Kwai Chang Caine is able to snatch the pebble from the hand and he leaves the Shaolin monastery and goes to the Old West and fights a bunch of racist cowboys. Anyways, another topic. But it's like when you can snatch the pebble from my hand of really believing I am enough, then you're ready, you know, then you're really ready. So for me, it was, I would say it and I was not getting the pebble. And I recognized Oh, I don't believe that I'm enough. I really don't. And I've got work to do. So it was helpful for me to kind of go like, it was, oh my God. I mean, it was a good, it was a good, you know, 10 years of me saying I am enough when I didn't believe it until it started through the work that I was doing to kind of believe it in the last like 8, 9, 10 years. I've, I really have come to believe that I am enough.

Well, I mean, there's, there's, there's some beauty in this for people watching and listening that I think there's a lot of people that don't believe they're enough, which for me, my mission is to give people the tools, inspiration, the expertise, the, the knowledge, the science, the research from others on how they can start to believe in themselves more. I believe self-doubt is the killer of dreams. I think it holds us back from going after what we want. You know, when we doubt ourselves, we lack the courage, or even worse, when we accomplish the thing and we don't feel enough, it's like, what will make me feel enough? You know, I was accomplishing in sports, you were accomplishing in acting, and you still weren't feeling enough with like the height of your career with that show, right? It was like, okay, why do I still not feel enough? And I believe when we can overcome that insecurity and doubt, that's when we can start to really step into a beautiful way of being. And it's been a process and a journey for me. I'm curious, what do you think it was that allowed you to start to believe that you were enough after all those years of kind of saying it and practicing it and the modalities and the training? Was there one thing that where you're like, okay, now I'm starting to feel it? Like, what was that letting go or skill that you learned that supported it?

That's a great question, and I wish I had kind of like some, some nugget, but it just, it just was, it was a shift, you know. It was a lot of work. It was like, you know, it's like you put in the work. You can, you know, use athletics as a metaphor. Like, you practice, you know, daily. You just, you practice and you work at it and you fail and you struggle, and you know, there's ups and downs and You know, it was finding a really good therapist and doing some retreats and doing some reading and working with my wife a lot. I learned a ton from my wife. She's much better at this stuff than I am. And, and it, it, it wasn't kind of like an aha thing, like, oh, it was just, yeah, I just, when I look back on it now, like, oh yeah, I'm, I'm so much more at peace now than I was. And, and And I have been for many years.

But when I look back at those years, some people might say, Rainn, well, I mean, okay, now you can have peace, more peace, because you've had— you make all this money and you have this success and you've had your career come true. But, you know, I'm a struggling actor here in L.A. and I'm, you know, barely scraping by and I get rejected constantly. So do I have to wait that long until I can feel enough?

Yes. No, wait, no. Anyone, anyone can do the work. I think that there's, there's a lot to say on that.

And also, sorry to cut you off there. Do you think you would have been able to accomplish what you accomplished with it, with by feeling you were enough before?

So that, that is an interesting conversation because for both of us, we felt like we weren't enough. We worked our tails off to kind of prove to the world that we're enough, and we scraped our way up and built careers, right? Me, this weird-looking actor guy. And if I had felt blissed out, peaceful, and just content with who I was at 24, would I have striven the way I did? Would I have struggled and clawed my way from unemployed actor in New York City to Emmy-nominated television show and lots of money? Like, would I have— sometimes, and you see that with so many people that are really driven, there's something kind of broken inside them that goads them on. So I don't— but I do think that— so I don't know. I don't know what the answer is to that. I don't know what the answer is.

Interesting to reflect on, though.

Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting conversation to have.

You mentioned— you mentioned your wife. How long have you been married?

Oh, man.

I'm going to get you in trouble here. Yeah.

28 years. 27 years. Yeah.

What is the thing you love the most about your wife? I—

I love so much about my wife. I can't even— I can't even begin to describe that. She has the most beautiful heart and the most beautiful sense of wonder of anyone that I've ever known. Like, it can be a poem she's reading, it can be a flower that she sees, it can be— we have all these weird pets— something with our, one of our animals, the way she loves animals. Like, there's this— and to watch her kind of like interact with something and It could be a, you know, a video on Instagram of like an otter building a castle in the kitchen or something. And, and, you know, but her, her, that, that heart-centered delight and wonder that she has is really— it's really special. And I get to witness that on a multiple times a day. And I'm— and this goes to— and I'm sure you've talked a lot about it on your show. I haven't listened to all 14 episodes. And it goes to gratitude, which is one of the most powerful forces in the universe. And I'm on a gratitude text chain. So every morning I get up, my group of guys, really, and 5 things we're grateful for. Wake up, 5 things we're grateful for. So it shifts that mindset from that Buddhist idea of dukkha, of dissatisfaction, to what we're grateful for. So I get to say that I am grateful for my wife and I get to feel that gratitude every day. Now, could I look at all the things that she doesn't do well and that bug me and that annoy me and that we've had a history of? Yeah, of course I could. And we all struggle with that in relationships. But, you know, to, to lead with gratitude, doors open.

What advice would you give to people in relation— because you were— you've been with her for a while before you, you know, were successful, right? What advice would you give to people in relationships?

Um, by the way, she liked being with me back when I was broke a lot better than really successful in the office, because I went through a couple years where I was just kind of a rage.

Sure. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

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Doug.

There's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

Hey everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?

Oh no, we help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league anyways.

Only pay for what you need at libertymutual.com.

Liberty, liberty, liberty.

What advice would you give to couples where, you know, maybe one or both of them are starting to like get some notoriety or, you know, followers or success or their business or career is taking off and they're getting a little ego and they're, you know, having some attention from the outside world? What would you share your wisdom on how to set your relationship up for more harmony?

And this is where I think spirituality comes into play because If we are spiritual beings having a human experience, then we are there in a coupleship to support each other's spiritual journey.

Yes.

So I get to, I, you know, achieve kind of fame and success from the office and she gets to support me on my spiritual journey of going through that, the good and the bad.

Interesting.

Right. And then, you know, she gets, you know, she, she's an author, she publishes a book, she, she, you know, writes something new. She struggles. I support her on her journey and her successes and her highs and lows. So marriage all too often, I think, can feel kind of circumstantial and it needs to feel. And I think there's a reason why the faith traditions, when you get married in front of God and like, till death do us part, but like, you're the idea that your, your souls are wedded, you know, and beyond this world, like into eternal worlds, you're going to, there's a companionship there. So it's, it's, it's that spiritual support. And that we're, we're each going to have times when we need more support and we're able to give more. And there's a, there's a dance, there's a yin and yang kind of back and forth. That's beautiful.

I don't know why I'm curious about this, but who is the person or persons that you respect the most in this business? The business of Hollywood, the business, show business, which is kind of like a circus, I feel like. Are there a couple people, you know, you don't have to throw anyone under the bus who, you know, you don't think is doing well or whatever, but is there a couple people that whether from the office or since after them that you really respect? You think they're living life in a great way as well as having a great career. They've got solid relationships. You feel like they have a strong foundation emotionally. Are there a couple of people you really respect or—

You know, it's— as you were asking that question, I was like, oh, Steve Carell. And then I was like, well, really, no, it's more Jenna. And then I was like, well, Angela. I was like, and I was like, well, you know, John Krasinski does pretty good. I was like, BJ does. And so I really have to say, shout out to my Office cast members. Like, that entire cast, I really admire and respect how they live their lives in Hollywood and the choices that they make. Steve puts family first, and he is He's a very kind of shy and reserved guy and really cherishes his privacy, but works hard on his, on his marriage and the life of his family. Jenna and Angela are the same way, but I really admire the way Jenna and Angela just give joy to people. They like— they, they love to just spread joy and positivity in their work. And John, you know, who's really taken off as a director and an actor and all kinds of things, like, again, his family first, absolutely, his, his wife and daughters. And he— the way that he kind of keeps his ego in check and is able to really focus on doing some really great and lasting work. And I admire the whole Office cast. I know I'm not trying to cop out, like, But they all have things that I admire and that I've learned from.

That's cool. I think when we met, I think it was 6 years ago actually is what they were saying. But I think when you walked in the studio, my other studio, one of the first things you said is, you look like John Krasinski. I think you said that to me 6 years ago. So you still pretty close with a lot of that group? Is that a family that's still close? Like everyone's kind of like still in contact?

Yeah, we text all the time. We have text chains and— That's nice.

Talk, supporting each other, celebrating each other's wins. That's amazing.

Absolutely.

Yeah, that's great, because I'm assuming you could be with— on a show or on a movie set for a few months and, and, and act like you're really bonding, but then everyone goes off to their next project or thing, and then you kind of lose touch, right?

Yep.

But you guys have stayed together.

We have.

That's amazing.

We have.

Yeah, that's amazing.

Yeah.

I'm really excited about this book, Soul Boom: Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution. Because I feel like there's a lot of sadness and suffering like we've talked about in the world. And anytime someone wants to open up about spirituality, which I think is really about having a deeper relationship with self-acceptance, self-love with yourself and with the universe, I think it's exciting. So I'm so glad that you're talking about this and that this book is out. I'm curious, What is the spiritual lesson? Because you mentioned you were atheist for a while and, you know, you've gone through your faith journey. What was the spiritual lesson you learned as a kid that maybe you let go of or forgot or rejected but have now come back to accept?

Well, it's so funny that you mentioned that because that's how I start the book, is comparing the spiritual journey to two of my favorite television shows from the 1970s, which I experienced as a kid, and I've done a lot of reflecting back on, which is Kung Fu, like I talked about, which is Kwai Chang Caine going through the rough-and-tumble West as a Shaolin monk. He's half Chinese, and he's— and he experiences a lot of racism and a lot of violence and aggression, and he takes his Eastern wisdom and teaches people lessons, and he also kicks ass when he needs to. You know, with kung fu, there's going to be a couple of fights per episode, which everyone waited— we all waited for with bated breath. And that I compare to like our personal spiritual journey. So you, Lewis, you've talked to 1,400 people, you've gained this wisdom, this insight, but then you go out in the world and you have your girlfriend and your family and you're navigating the world and trying to use You're bettering yourself, continue doing your therapy work. You're trying to, you're trying to make yourself a better person, increase your positive qualities, your divine qualities, your spiritual qualities, some could say, of compassion and kindness and love. Right? So that's, that's that path. My other favorite TV show from the '70s was Star Trek. So Star Trek I see as also a spiritual journey, not on an individual level, but on a collective level. Because people forget that in Star Trek, the mythology is there's been a huge World War III, and out of the ashes of that terrible conflagration, humanity has succeeded and thrived and overcome its past divisions. There is— I don't want to get anyone upset— there is a one-world government. So a lot of people are like, Oh, there's one world government. Like, well, Star Trek. Yeah, pretty successful Federation, one world government. I'm all for it. Um, but we've overcome racism, we've overcome sexism, there's no more income inequality, right? Technology has allowed us to have, um, what do they call it, the little things where you can make a bowl of soup, or you can— the replicator— and you can like get anything out of it. So they've technology has taken us to a point where then humanity is able to seek out new life and new civilizations and spread technology and peace and, and connection throughout the universe and be filled with wonder and, and whatnot. And, you know, I don't think Gene Roddenberry intended the show to be spiritual. I think it was, you know, about technology, the wonders of technology from the '60s and '70s. But really, humanity has matured, right? And even when you get to Star Trek: The Next Generation, there's no conflict anymore. And then Roddenberry insisted when they were doing Star Trek: The Next Generation, like, humanity at this point— because that was further than The Original Series— that they not be in conflict. So you don't see Picard and Number One, like, arguing over, "No, we should go over there." "No, Picard, you idiot, we shouldn't land there." We should— like, they humanity has, like, figured out, has matured beyond even conflict.

So this is—

I get into a lot of stuff in the book. I get into death, consciousness, the meaning of life. I have a whole chapter on God called The Notorious God. I talk about sacredness, looking for the holy in our lives, religion, the purpose of religion. You know, is religion good or bad? Why is there religion? But a lot of it towards the tail end of the book is really about this Star Trek journey, because when a lot of people think about spirituality, they think about cultivating serenity and finding and quelling anxiety and finding beauty and some purpose and some connection. But it's, it's here in the heart, and that's very important. And that's where you got to start. And it's really important. But we also have a spiritual journey collectively on planet Earth to try and make the world a better place. And for example, you think about compassion, like that's something we can get better at, is compassion, right? Feeling for other people. You know, whenever I'm at my worst, I'm not in compassion. I'm like, oh, that screw him. Oh, that's, that's bullshit.

What?

You know, like, can be judgmental and like, like, oh, those idiots. Why didn't they do that? And they should just do, you know, and, but when I'm able to increase my compassion and say, oh, we're all in this human struggle together. Oh, those poor people. Like, like imagine just how much an increase of compassion could help us as a species move forward on the planet, to just maximize— like, we're talking like Jesus-like compassion or Buddha-like compassion. It could be a powerful force. In fact, I have a little scenario in there. I was like, what if humanity could invent a compassion machine? So picture like an MRI machine or something where you put electrodes on your scalp or whatever it is. I don't know what it looks like, but then you're able to connect with someone on the other side of the world. He's a goat herder in Yemen, or it's, you know, someone plowing a field in Pakistan or whatever it is, someone completely different than you. And in this compassion machine, you're able to see and feel the world through their eyes and through their heart. Like, imagine if we were actively every day, everyone spent half an hour in a compassion machine. And we had just a much deeper understanding of the difficulties of what it's like to be a goat herder in Yemen or a farmer in Pakistan. And, but these are some of like the spiritual tools that lie in the world's faith traditions that can be transformative for us as a species on the planet. So My 5-year-old lesson, these 2 TV shows kind of show us the way forward.

Well, they— that's good. That's a good answer. I've got a couple final questions for you, but I want people to get the book Soul Boom: Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution. Make sure you guys check it out. Get a couple copies for your friends as well.

Do you know about the Grant Study out of Harvard University?

75-year study?

Yeah.

Yes.

75-year study, 300 men, Harvard University, searching for what makes a good life. All these data points, thousands of data points over the decades. The final doctor overseeing the study, Dr. George Vaillant— I think there's a new one now, but he was before— he said his final culmination was the only thing that really matters in life are your relationships to other people. So wherever I went in the world, and I saw people succeeding at well-being, at, at inspiration and happiness, contentment. They're connected to other people. It's community. It's all about community.

And I think as Gabor Mate talks about, I'm going to paraphrase it. I think it's the relationships with others, but also the relationship to ourselves and making sure we have a good relationship with self. It's hard to have great relationships with others if we don't have a beautiful relationship with self, if we don't accept, have compassion for ourselves or the parts of ourselves that we are most ashamed of or guilty or insecure about. And so I think it's a two-part thing. It's like having great relationships with others, but also developing a quality relationship with self. And it's, for me, it's inspiring to see you continue to develop a beautiful relationship with yourself. So that you can be of service more in these other ways that you're doing with this book and the show that you have going on. So I'm excited about that. Here's a question I wanted to ask you about comparison, because you mentioned this earlier in the interview about comparison, and I'm curious, how can someone learn to not compare themselves to others in an industry? you know, whether it's acting or sports or business or podcasting or books, whatever it is, did you compare yourself a lot when you were kind of becoming famous and rising up in this space? Or were you pretty focused on your own race and you weren't thinking about what everyone else was doing? And if so, how did you overcome that comparison mentality?

So Theodore Roosevelt said, comparison is the thief of joy. And if you are looking for joy, if you're looking for bliss, contentment, and self-acceptance, that's a good place to start. Stop comparing yourself to others because you just don't know their circumstances. You don't know your circumstances. There were a lot of people that I was incredibly envious of early on in my career doing theater in New York. Oh, it's something I've struggled with my whole life. I mean, really let it go now. But, and, you know, they had their moment in, let's say, New York theater in the '90s, Broadway or whatever it is. Yeah, exactly. And then, and then I've had my moment. We all have our moments if you have talent. And but it's, it's a really important one of like, it's— I don't know if there's any kind of miracle to it. It's just stop it. Don't do it. Don't compare yourself. That's like It doesn't work. It doesn't help you. Envy is like— that's in every spiritual tradition, right? The envy and the— what is it? The green— what did Shakespeare call envy? The green goblin or something like that, maybe. So yeah, that has been a big struggle for me. It's especially a struggle for actors because you're like—

because you're going into a role and auditioning and there's 50 other guys or whatever.

There's 20 guys in a room and one of you gets the part and like, oh, he did it. And then you go in again and the same guy gets the thing and you're like, God, him, you know. And so, you know, like, Nick Offerman is a great example. Like, he, he and I used to audition for all the same roles. And then I got on The Office. I actually got him— introduced him to the producers of The Office, and they had his picture on the wall. And they thought of him for Parks and Recreation, which was going to be a comedy spinoff. And I'm not saying I got him the role, but I, you know, opened the door. Then he had that thing, and now he's, he's been doing so much great work on, in, in television and having a career. There was a time when, because we're, we're similar actors in a lot of ways, we're different in a lot of ways as well, but, you know, he's, uh, and I just remember those early years of being in the audition, like, oh, you again, you know, and We never had that with each other and we're, we're able to really support each other. And then he's written a bunch of books, I've written a bunch of books and that's cool. We support each other there as well. But yeah, it's, it's been a struggle.

Well, I guess if you wanna stay miserable, compare yourself to everyone, right? If you wanna be miserable, compare yourself to everyone.

If you, it's a great place to start. You know, if you wanna start like, I, I'm gonna, you, you're talking about like School of Greatness, right? Like these action items that you can make your life better. Number 1, stop comparing yourself to others. I love that. Okay.

Love it.

Rainn, you're just as good a podcast host as Rich Roll. Okay. All right.

For me, the thing that I've learned that helped me, because I used to— I don't know if I used to compare, but I used to compete.

Okay.

Until 10 years ago. And I'm still, like, competitive in certain life, but more like towards games. It's not about like I don't know, my business. It's like, okay, I want to be the best I can be, but I'm not trying to necessarily beat others.

Yeah.

Because I feel like that's a scarcity business and a scarcity world where I've really shifted into collaboration as much as possible.

Yeah.

Like, okay, here's someone— me and Rich have been friends for, you know, 11 years, and, uh, and so we just support each other. You know, how can I help you in succeeding and you can help me in succeeding? Yeah. Let's just collaborate more And there's abundance. There's room for both.

I love, I love those words, scarcity and abundance, because if you've undergone some kind of child trauma and you feel less than, you feel scarcity and you feel like, I'm never going to get what I need and there's not going to be enough for me, right? It's like someone who grows up in an orphanage, even when they're adult and they can have $1 million in the bank, they'll hide cookies under the mattress, afraid that they're going to be hungry. You know, and to just know there is enough for everyone. We can all have some success and we can kind of live our lives in abundance.

It probably wasn't until 4 years ago where I stopped sleeping on people's couches, like when I would travel, like I used to like travel and be like, who do I know in the city that I can crash on?

Right.

As opposed to like just paying for the hotel room because I was like, This is money I could save and not be broke again and just make sure I can stack my account or something. Maybe it was like 60 or 70 years ago, but it felt like it was more recent where it was like, okay, I can afford a hotel. I don't need to crash on someone's couch. All these different things. I wanted to acknowledge you, Rainn, for this beautiful conversation, for being open, vulnerable, real, authentic, just like we talked about before we started. I appreciate your realness. And I always see your content from time to time and You know, for me, I appreciate when someone who is extremely successful in their craft can open up about the different challenges and struggles and, and things that they've had to overcome. So I really appreciate that about you. I want people to get the book Soul Boom: Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution, and also make sure to check out the new show that's coming out, Geography of Bliss. And if they go to your Instagram and your website, they can see more updates about all this stuff and find out where to watch and how to get the book and exactly all these different things. Um, links, links, handles, everything. We'll have it all up, everything. Soulboom.com, Rainn Wilson everywhere as well. We'll have it all linked up for you guys. Is there anything else we should send people to directly for you? Well, that's, that's all, that's all good.

That's it. Yeah.

Um, I asked you these two questions in the previous episode, you probably won't remember your answers. I have them up in front of me, so I'm going to cheat.

Oh my God.

And see if you match these two responses. It's been 6 years now, so there might be a different response to these two questions. The first one is called the Three Truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. You get to live as long as you want, but eventually it's your last day on this earth and you get to create, accomplish, be, do all the things you want to do from this moment until then. But for whatever reason, in this hypothetical scenario, you've got to take all of your work with you. So no one has access to this book or any podcast you've ever done or any interview. It all goes somewhere else. Hypothetical. But you get to leave behind 3 truths that you've learned throughout your life, 3 lessons that you'd share with the world. What would be those 3 truths for you that you'd share?

Well, one is the one we started with, which is, you know, what's something that I know for sure? I know for sure that I'm a spiritual being having a human experience. I would say another truth is that storytelling is one of the most powerful forces on planet Earth. Humans need to storytell. We thrive when we tell stories. And by this, I mean write poems, make movies, tell our stories, share our personal details, connect with people, talk. You can do it professionally. You can be a professional storyteller, you know, in film and television and theater or in fiction. And you could do it in your daily life. But that is one of the most powerful and important forces. And I would say, too, the other thing is we need more joy and hope in the world. And one of the greatest services that we can ever give to people is to bring them joy and bring them hope. And that's, that's where the work lies.

Beautiful. Well, if people want to know what the previous 3 truths are, make sure you check out the other episode. We'll link it up so you can see. Oh, you're not going to tell them? We can see where they differ or where they're the same. This is the final question for you. What is your definition of greatness?

I believe in God, so I believe that God has given me talents, certain talents and faculties, and greatness is me maximizing my God-given talents and faculties. So I learned a lot about this when I realized like, oh, I have the ability to make people laugh. I'm kind of goofy. I'm kind of weird looking. Good sense of humor, good timing. I can use language. Let me use all of those skills to try and make people laugh. And that worked out pretty well. It worked out pretty well for me. But we all have to find what what that skillset is that gives us the most deepest, richest satisfaction and, and ply it.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well.

Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review.

I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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