The Hidden Prisons Trapping You & How to Break Free

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Back to the School of Greatness. We have a very special episode with two Inspiring men with two different yet very similar stories. Shaka Senghor and Christian House. Two men who learned how to rewrite their story and find purpose after time spent in prison. Shaka is a New York Times bestselling author, internationally recognized speaker, and leading voice on resilience and redemption. Christian House is my brother. He is an award winning jazz violinist, a composer, an educator, and an inspiring teacher. Today they're going to share their stories. For anyone who's feeling trapped physically, mentally, emotionally, or spiritually, and you feel like you can't break free within your own mind, in your own heart, or in your body, this is the episode for you. It's all about how to become a free human being. We've got two amazing individuals on here who are going to be talking about their experience from overcoming so much before prison, during prison, and after prison. And there is so much that the world does not know about on what you guys have gone through and how you've overcome the lives that you've had. And there are a lot of people shocking you talk about this, that there are a lot of people that are imprisoned who are actually not in prison.

Yeah.

And they are living an imprisoned life even though they're not behind bars. And yet both of you were behind bars. And I think both of you became free at some point in your own minds behind bars, but you've also been prisoners outside of bars. And so I want to. I want to start with a quote from your book, Shaka, and then let you guys open it up from here. This quote says prison is designed to break you. The walls, the rules, the routine. It's all meant to strip you down until you forget who you are. But what I discovered is that the most powerful prisons aren't the ones made of concrete and steel. They're the ones we carry with with us, built from grief, anger, shame, trauma, and self doubt. And I'm curious, how have you learned and how both of you learned how to overcome the prisons that you created within yourself, outside of prison? I'll let you start.

That's such an incredible question. You know, when I think about my journey to actual physical incarceration, where I spent 19 years, seven years of those was in solitary confinement. What I discovered through that process of freeing myself was that I had been incarcerated before I had ever been in handcuffs, because I had inherited a narrative that said, you'll be dead or locked up before you're 21. I was sentenced to prison. I was 19 years old. Wow. So I fulfilled that prophecy that I thought about, you know, you manifested what you thought absolutely in the negative. Right. It was like this whole thing that, oh, my life can only have this outcome. So let me just live within the framework of that mindset.

Interesting.

And it was when I was in solitary confinement that I went on this journey journaling, trying to unpack. How did I get here? I wanted to be an artist and a doctor, but here I was serving out my most promising years in prison, in a prison, inside a prison, which is solitary confinement. And what I did is I started journaling to ask this question, how did I get here? And what I discovered was mind blowing because I realized that the mindset that I had accepted based on that narrative led me to that path. And what I began to challenge was, if this works absolutely in a negative, then it has to work in a positive. And that's when I went on this journey to discover my mind, which I eventually fell in love with. And that's where I found myself getting free.

When did you first fall in love with your mind? How old were you?

I would have been at that point, probably 27 or so. I was in solitary, so 1999, 2000. And it was through the journaling process, and I found this incredible human being who had been covered up by trauma, shame, grief, you know, all the things, anger, the things this cloud that I carried around. And I found myself working through that cloud. And I was like, oh, this beautiful human being exists. And if you can embrace this human being, this little boy who had all these dreams and desires, like, you'll never be, you know, held captive by anything. And that's when I began that journey. And it was the most. It's the most beautiful. My mind is the most beautiful place that I exist in.

Wow.

Wait, so for those that don't know what solitary confinement actually is, maybe they have a conception what it is, explain what it is for people that have no clue.

So solitary confinement is 23 hour lockdown every day in the most chaotic, barbaric, inhumane environment imaginable. It is the one thing in America that I don't think people are even aware of the brutality that exists in that environment and what it's designed to do. It is literally designed to break a human being and to ensure that when you leave there, any semblance of humanity no longer exist. And to be able to discover my own mind in that environment was both survival but also a spiritual reckoning that, you know, I'm fortunate I was able to go into solitude inside of solitary.

Wow.

Which are different things, which is that that internal journey that I was able to go on.

But after seven years, how do you find peace within solitary confinement? There's no mentors, there's no art, there's no music, there's no creativity around you. How did you create that within you?

Well, I was really lucky. I think that there are spaces in the world where if you inhabit them, you may be lucky. Right. So if you live in a certain area code, that can be a matter of luck. If you're born with the genetics of LeBron James, there's a physical luck there. Right. That you can't script that. My luck, that I was actually literate in an environment where the average literacy rate is third grade. And so I was able to read stories of other people who had triumphed over hardship. I was able to read fiction, I was able to read autobiographies and philosophy. And so those things just kept my mind moving forward. And what I've come to understand about being stuck, whether it's being imprisoned in your own mind, whether it's suicidal ideation, whether it's depression, is what happens is your mind can't take another step. And so what reading did for me was that it allowed me to just keep my mind moving forward as I was fighting to really unlock myself from this in prison way of being.

Wow. Now, both you and Chris are the same age.

Right.

You went in essentially around the same time, maybe a six month window difference when you both went into jail at the same time. And jail back then was a different time than it is now, I'm assuming, on how things are run.

Absolutely.

I don't know if they're any better, but I'm assuming they're different. Yeah, but what Chris, from what Shaka just shared, what resonated with you from your personal experience? And again, you guys are around the same age, went at the same time, you know, around the same neighborhood, you know, vibe, four hours away from each other. Michigan, Ohio.

Yeah. What's.

What. What opened up for you during that?

Pretty much everything that I've heard Shaka talk about has resonated with me the one way or another from every. And he speaks prolifically and eloquently about all these topics. And, you know, so. So it's great for me to hear it from him. To answer your question, like, when I was locked up, I'm. Shaka asked me this question earlier too. I tried to focus on like four areas of productivity. One was like intellectual academic reading, you know, one was my musical development. One was just my body, you know, so working out and then the fourth one was that I tried to maintain interpersonal relationships, not only in prison, but really I'm talking about by writing letters. So I would write letters to our family and to a few people back home. Those four things that was like kind of my, I guess, North Star of like, how am I going to make the most of this four years? Because obviously on any given day in prison, you have a choice. A lot of times people think, oh, you're in prison. Well, you had nothing better to do.

So of course you became a great writer and you got stronger.

It's like, no, it doesn't work that way. I always tell people if you were on a stranded island, you'd be surprised and how easy it is to get depressed. And like, you know, and I didn't do seven years in solitary, but I did probably about seven weeks in solitary. So I know what it feels like. And I remember that I would be inside. And this is a perfect example. Right. Well, you have to tell me what you think. But when you're in solitary, you feel like, okay, today I'm going to read books, I'm going to do push ups, I'm going to do meditation. But then you. I didn't always have the strength to do that. And I would just lay the entire day and I could not get myself up. I don't know if you ever experienced, but that's how. So. So it doesn't matter if you have time. It's still the same dilemma for a human being, like, what are you going to do with your time? And I think if anything, prison just, it just highlights these lessons for us, you know, And. But since I've been out, which was part of your question, like, how do I escape the prisons that can show up for me, as Shaka says, from grief, trauma, shame, guilt, all these kinds of things. I will say that it's a. We have to keep. We have to keep maintaining it. We need to keep our eyes on it. And I think there can be times just like in prison where we're up and where things are feeling good and then there can be a downturn. So I'm 53 now. I've been out of prison almost 30 years. And so even now at 53, I'm like, hey, this. Where are we going next? How do we keep it moving, positive?

So I.

So the same thing, really, to be honest with you. It's like all the things that you share on your podcast, like, these are the things that inspire me. You know, constantly trying to look for, what can I do to Feed my body, my.

The.

My knowledge of psychology, my emotional intelligence, and building healthy relationships.

I mean, you know, not everyone watching this or listening has been to prison. But I'm assuming everyone watching or listening has experienced some type of shame or guilt or grief in their life or resentment or anger. They've experienced similar emotions.

But how.

How have each one of you learned to heal from shame, guilt, or trauma that occurred either before prison, in prison, or sharing your story after prison? How have each one of you learned or are still learning how to do it and not feeling ashamed every time you walk into a room?

Yeah.

Does someone know this about me? Do they not know this about me? Should I say this? Should I not say this? Like, how to not feel ashamed about who you are and what you've been through?

It's such a great question. And one of the. One of the things about shame I actually write. There's a chapter I write about this feeling, right? And actually it came from our work out here in society, working the regular job like most people are doing. And I remember I had this moment where a project was handed to me. It was a very expensive project. And I, working with, you know, this team who I believed in, they were capable and unfortunately just couldn't deliver. And I could. I should have just stopped the project, but I kept going to the end, cost the company some money, cost some time. And I remember talking to the CEO, and we had a very kind of. Just like a debriefing. And he walked me through kind of, you know, his process of, like, what could you have done different? What would you do? Et cetera. Right. And it was a very thoughtful, very prolific, very intentional way of, like, assessing how do we just get better, faster and more productive. And I remember just being seized up with this feeling of like, man, I failed, you know? And what I did, which is one of my superpowers, is my ability to go back and write about what was the real feeling there, what was really.

Coming up for me, what was the real feeling?

Real feeling was attached to my childhood at a time where somebody who our family trusted attempted to molest me. And as a kid who didn't know what to do with the feelings of anger, I responded by breaking into this guy's house with the. With the attempt to destroy his home and just say, hey, what you did wasn't okay. And I got caught by the police and I got arrested. And my mother and my father, they thought that I was just on some type of bad behavior experience, but there was a deeper thing that had happened And I hadn't talked about it. And my family, my parents, they hadn't created space for me to talk about it, which is something that I think a lot of people end up being trapped in shame because there's no space to talk about it. And Finally, I was 50 years old, the first time I ever told my dad my reason for breaking in that man's house, really. And I called both of my parents and I remember talking to my dad, I'm a dad. And it was this moment where I just said to him, you know, hey, here's my why. And I could just feel through the phone, my dad just like, oh, whoa. You know, as a dad, that could not have felt good, that, hey, I took my off the ball maybe, or maybe not, I don't know. But I explained to him, like, it wasn't nothing he did. This guy was just who he was, right? And so there's these moments that I've experienced it. And even with my past, where it came full circle, which was one of the things that inspired the book, is my brother was murdered in 2021. I fly home to Detroit to help with the burial process, all the things. And there was a moment where I'm just sitting there and my stepmom, my bonus mom, she's crying because she's grieving my brother's life. And I was struck by this feeling of guilt at a time when I should have been grieving because I made somebody else's family feel like that. And that moment for me was like, you know, this is a deeper level of shame. And so what I did is I actually ended up writing a letter to the person who murdered my brother. And that ability to understand that something had to transpire in his life for him to pull that trigger helped me process the feeling of guilt, but also the feeling of shame and recognize that the 19 year old me that pulled that trigger was a hurt, broken kid who had no space to heal. And I was able to have empathy while still being accountable. And so what I've. All these things that I've used to unpack these larger life lessons because I've seen colleagues who are doing amazing, but they don't get a thing right and they beat up on themselves. I've seen parents, I've seen people in relationships, and it all comes back to oftentimes something that happened early in our childhood that imprinted in our minds that we have to be perfect. We can't make mistakes. And if we do make a mistake, that we must therefore beat up on ourselves over and over and over again, replay. Perfect. Yeah. Replaying that moment of the failure over and over. And what journaling did for me is it disrupted that cycle. What writing that letter did is it broke that cycle and allowed me to be present with myself and feel the grief of losing my brother without attaching it to my own guilt. And like, that's the power of, like, really awakening to the. To one's mind and realizing if you just keep these small steps, you know, writing it down. So it seems like a small thing to do. It's one of the biggest unlocks that we can, you know, ever have access to.

Have you ever tried journaling, Chris, in the last, you know, since you've been out of jail, have you tried any of that? Or how have you learned how to process? Or still now trying to figure it out what's been open up for you from the healing journey?

I. It is funny that. I mean, I developed a writing habit and I've. I've recently, I've kind of traced that back to when I was in prison and writing letters all the time. I've seen that that is beneficial. But I would say just naming it and even having permission as men, especially to give a name to these real emotions, you know, And I think that's part of what I admire so much about your work. Why I think it's so. In what you're doing, you know, creating like an example and you, you know, example for men to be able to talk about fear, shame, guilt, you know, the things that are not commonly associated as, like, manly emotions. I think that. And in prison, this was one of my big questions, like, what is the code of a man? What does it mean to be a man? And when you're in. And we talk about this in the film, we use art to kind of address this question of. Because I think some of these, the answers can't all be spelled out in wor. Literally too. It has. Sometimes it's poetic, sometimes it's visual, sometimes it's artistic. But in prison, you know, you learn about the code of a convict. But I've kind of wondered, like, what's the difference? Code of a convict, code of a man. I mean, that's really what I wanted to know when I was 20, going into jail, probably, I think around the same time as you. Right. And you were 19? I was 20, but I mean, I was young. I didn't identify as a grown man at 20.

Right, right.

I was like, I thought, well, in a couple years I'll be at a grow man.

Right.

But I went in there and I was like, I was asking men around me, like, how does it work? Like, what is it? And, and there's very conflicting messages that we get as men for what it means to be a man. And I think one of the most, the epitome of one of those messages is the idea that as a man, you don't let anybody disrespect you. You don't let anybody, like get over on you, right? But this, I think that the irony of this is that if we follow this definition, that it is ultimately a path of self hatred and self destruction. And in prison you see that it's like to the ultimate degree, right? Because if somebody disrespects you, then you have to meet it. And then it only just goes to that you're willing to kill somebody or you're willing to maim somebody, which actually is just killing yourself because then you're going to do a life bit. So this idea that a man is someone who is willing to meet anything with violence, I think is very. It's a very destructive force for men. And I think it's also related to these other things, like not being able to name fear.

What do you mean by not being able to name something? What does that mean?

I think that men are, are don't feel comfortable saying, I felt afraid. Like, this is another film, this is another theme that we address in this film that I made and where it's like this idea of ptsd, right? Like I went to see a therapist or I heard about this thing called ptsd and I was like, well, what is it? And I was really. Because you just hear the initials and you're like, I don't know what that means. It's a condition, right? You don't really understand. Well, post traumatic stress disorder, Basically, the way it was explained to me, it's like I asked my therapist, it was like, is it, do I have ptsd? And he was like, well, wait, so you spent four years in prison? He was like, well, yeah, that would be a good reason to have it. But he broke it down to me. He said, PTSD is something if you've found yourself in a lot of uncertainty and a lot of fear and a lot of anxiety. But what I'm saying is that I don't think I'd given myself permission to acknowledge that I had been afraid. I think it's like taboo to say I feel fear again. This is part of what I admire about you, I think, is like, you're very strong man who also names all these different emotions, complex emotions, and provide a model for how. And you too.

Yeah. You know what I mean?

And this is like your book, the Mask of Masculinity, I think deals with a lot of these things. So I try to be constantly surrounding myself with education and inspiration, you know, stories. And of course I keep trying to be engaged in all the other work of being present in my body, present in my emotions, you know, meditation, all these things. But, but that's. I think it starts with naming these things and making it less taboo to be able to talk about as men, all these different feelings that we have if we talk. First of all, if we say I feel grief, that's the starting point.

Yeah.

The say, I feel fear, I feel shame, I feel guilt. It has to start there.

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On a scale of 1 to 10, how much shame do you still feel from your past pains, whatever it might be, whether it be jail time or stuff before or whatever it might be. Ten being the most amount of shame. One being the least amount of shame. So that's part one. One to ten, how much shame do you still feel? And number two, how do you process the shame? Now, if there is any, to not be so extreme or so intense in your body or your mind, to hold you back from living the life you want.

That's a powerful question. You know, I think in my, in my journey, what I, what I know with certainty is that it's been a sliding scale, of course, and I didn't realize this until I actually began to write about shame. That environmental factors oftentimes dictate how we feel about ourselves. Growing up in a city like Detroit, where the impact of like the, the war on drugs was very present, a lot of people were incarcerated, a lot of people who were shot and killed. The understanding of that environment in my community saying, hey, we understand that you went through this thing, but it's not who you are today, kind of lessened that, that, that feeling. But it's also been weaponized in intimate relationships, you know, where I've had, you know, partners at times basically use my past to try to demean me.

That's not good.

And that was like, whoa, you know, and it made me stop and pause and think about, well, wow, does this person really see me as my old self? Right. And just for context, I went to prison for second degree homicide. And so to have someone who says that they love you, call you a murderer, and then how do you, how do you, you know, evolve from that? Right. And I remember when that, that experience happened and it did, it took it, it made that scale slide way up.

Right?

You felt more shame at that point.

Yeah. Because it's more like, hey, this is the person that I'm, you know, tasked with protecting. And if they really see me in this way, what does that say? Right?

Yeah.

And then there's the subconscious things that happen when you're in culture, right. You're, I'm at work and I would just, we'd be in the sales cycle and they're like, yo, you killed that. And I'm like, oh, you know what I mean? So it's just like this subconscious thing will come up or be a works.

Thing, like, you did a good job, but using it.

Right, right. And, and without them even being aware of like what that could signal or, or mean. And then there's the other social context. I move in a lot of spaces where oftentimes because of the space that I'm in, nobody would even assume that I spent 20 years in prison.

Right.

And so to hear people talk candidly about someone who's committed a crime and that they should be locked away forever, they should be given a death penalty. Like those moments of like, wow, like this is what that person would think if I was, you know, at that low stage of my life. Right.

They might have thought that about you.

They might have thought that. Exactly right. And so how I've combated that is that I have been able to recognize that my 19 year old self was A kid who had experienced more trauma than is almost humanly possible for people to even understand, and that that kid deserved to be one held accountable, which I was. I served that time. But also to really be. To recognize that that was a traumatic reaction to a life full of trauma and that there is empathy and compassionate. That those things can both be true. Yes, that I can be accountable, but that I can also recognize that there was something that drove that behavior that no longer exists in me today. And so it's just a constant going back and reminding myself. And as I said, that scale slides back and forth. Where it's at today is a zero. I feel no shame in who I'm at. But tomorrow, something else could arise, and then I have to do the work to get it back down to a zero.

Sure.

Okay.

Yeah. That's powerful.

Well, you, Chris, that really resonates with me. I think. I agree that I do a lot of work in schools. I've visited nearly a thousand orchestra classrooms in the United States in the last 30 years. You know, and that's a big part of what I do, is going to. Working with kids, middle school and high school. And a lot of the teachers that have hired me over the years, they know my backstory, and they even think, like, well, this is a good thing. We want this guy to be able to set a good example for these kids. And, you know, whether it's explicit or whether it's implicit, I see part of the work of being a music educator as also influencing positive character development. Right. You know, and so if I'm going. And there's been a lot of times when people have asked me explicitly to speak about character issues or tell my story and impart the messages, you know, to kids, to try to. Not necessarily scare them straight, but to inspire them to. To do good things. But most of the time, when I go to schools, I'm just a music teacher.

Right.

I'm being. I'm like a guest music teacher. And some. Sometimes I worry that, like, if, you know, these teachers, they might not want to hire me if they know my backstory, because not everybody does. And so that kind of, like, this thought that what you said about it, depending on how other people are responding to you, I can relate to that. But in general, I feel like it's work that I just have to keep doing, even if that brings up. If one experience with a person brings up shame in me or guilt or triggers me. I just see that as evidence that I need to keep doing work. Yeah. To get to a zero. Ideally, as much of the time. And then it's about. I. I do believe that we have the ability to respond, you know, and we. That we have to cultivate that ability and that choice to respond to situations that might trigger us today. So I'm working on that.

You're talking about the old self versus the new self. I think anyone here could identify that. And no matter what type of shame, trauma, or experiences they've been through, you know, what range of, you know, experiences they've been through, the old self, you know, I think people hold on to shame because they're living in the old self a lot, thinking of, like, what they did or what someone did to them or what they didn't do or what they should have done or whatever the mistakes they made or the problems that happened, who they hurt, who hurt them, things like that, you know, thinking of these things and holding on to them. And it's still us, I think, when we live in that shame. But there's got to be a point where we can learn to figure out how to process and integrate a new version of ourselves.

Absolutely.

So we can still recognize that part of our story, but it not be the new identity of who we are today. So how do we learn to shift from an old self or an old identity and transform into a new self, a new identity without shame.

That's such a great framing for a question that I think about often is how does one reimagine themselves? And how do you create a new narrative and not be held hostage to your worst moment?

Yes.

And what I found for me is that is celebrating all the victories, not just the small ones or not just the big ones, but when you start getting into the details of how do you actually show up? Right. So when I was thinking about my experience at the company, what I thought about was that that was one project that I didn't get right. But what about all these other ones I got right? What about all of my colleagues that come to me in search of wisdom to solve a problem? How many different ways have I innovated at this company and help the CEO see something that he probably would not have seen without being in conversation with me? Right. And so it's like we. If we get to a space where we stop erasing our victories? Because that's what shame does. Shame erases the victories. And then when you lean into that old narrative, it literally says, hey, this season doesn't count. And you think about it from a sports, you know, perspective. Right. Like, you know, we love to hold on to the lure of yesteryear when it's the winning part of it. But we know we can't carry those, you know, those losses over to the next year. Start with a clean slate, and it's really about, how do you give yourself a clean slate? How do you actually count those victories and be intentional about it? Writing it down, you know, that's the journaling part for me. The other part is mindfulness. Whenever I found myself ruminating on a past failure, what I instantaneous try to do is bring myself to the present moment. Sometimes that's just with gratitude. I'm thankful to be in this moment.

Yeah.

I'm thankful that I have a glass of water. And that ability to move into the present is one of the greatest unlocks. Right. Because oftentimes we're just. We're living in a space that no longer exists. Like, my past does not exist anymore. You know, it doesn't. I'm not in that moment anymore. My future hasn't arrived. So I can only be here in this moment with you and Chris, which I feel so grateful for, you know, to hear Chris articulate his experience. And it's mirroring some of the things that I navigate. Right. That's how you, like, get out of the shame. And that's how you start to create a new scorecard, is just being present in the moment, you know, that's interesting. Yeah.

And, Chris, do you feel like you were holding on to or trying to hide the past after you got out of jail for a while, the first few years, or we, you know, I just heard you and Shaka talking about, yeah, I'm just gonna go be a musician and not talk about this and let, you know, let this be in the past.

Oh, it's fun. Yeah. When I first got out, I remember I applied for this thing to go to some teaching, and it was like a music slash, whatever. And I. And I proposed. I said, I'm going to talk about, you know, like, drugs, and I'm going to talk about, you know, try to impart some of these messages to encourage kids. And they. And some of the feedback I got from this particular application was like, no, just. Just stick with the music. We don't want you to talk about this other thing. But I don't know, maybe that made.

You feel shameful of, like, who knows.

You know, there could have been a lot of different factors. I mean, the fact is, right now I'm wanting to lean more back into this because I sense that it is. It's important for me to develop it's important for me to lean into it, as opposed away from it. And recently I've reconnected with reentry communities, and that's been really inspiring because I feel like when I'm in a room, in that room with formerly incarcerated people, I feel like I belong in that room. I feel like there's a way that I can be authentic, that I don't always feel in any other spaces, even just, like, connecting with you, you know, before the show. There's just a. There's a sort of understanding and a feeling of being seen for who I am and the feeling of not needing to be ashamed, actually.

Yeah.

And so.

So I think that.

Why is that?

I don't know why.

Yeah.

Do you know why?

I mean.

Well, when we're in prison, I think you do learn to see the prisoners as being human.

Yeah.

And when I first got locked up.

And you went for drugs, right?

Yeah, it was a drug charge. Yeah. It was trafficking lsd. And when I first got locked up, you know, we came from the same family, and I was on full scholarship at Ohio State University at the time, and I had been identified as, quote, unquote, academically gifted and all these things. And when I. And I. And then. And a lot of people thought that what I did was kind of like, didn't really count as a crime. It's kind of like. But it did. But, you know, but that was like an all narrative of like, oh, it's just drugs. And so when I went in, I kind of had this narrative inside that was like, well, I'm a drug deal.

And you.

I think you see a lot of this in prison. Like, people are like, well, there's a.

There's a hierarchy of crime.

You always try to say, like, it's not.

I'm not as bad as that guy.

You know, So I kind of have that. That story when I went in. But the longer I was in, the more I saw. Like, I'm exactly the same as everybody else here. Yeah.

Like, why is that?

Yeah, I think. I think part of it was that I saw the people that I was with as being deeply human. And, you know, that there was so much I could learn from them, that they had so much rich knowledge and wisdom and soulfulness and that. That they're. You know, my relationships with them were meaningful. And I was learning so much from people that I met in prison. And, you know, the idea would be that, like, you know, because I had all these good grades and, like, the full. That I should be the one that's teaching and I did teach a lot of musicians. A lot of, lot of people came to me to teach them about music but I learned more from them, you know, and so, so I think maybe another answer to your question is that through positive relationships is a way to hopefully work through some of those shame to surround yourself with people who see you as human and, and constantly give you that feedback of valuing your, that humanity.

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It feels good to save big. It feels good to Geico. What were the three biggest lessons each one of you learned in jail? Whether it be from a person that said something, something you observed, something you experienced yourself, you know, three biggest lessons, I'll let you start, Chris.

I mean, that would probably be one of them is that knowledge comes from in more places and more people than we are taught to believe and that we can really enrich our perspective the more that we listen to a wide variety of voices. That knowledge can come from so many different things. I think another lesson that I learned was that, and this is maybe kind of a, even a cliche, but like when things are hard, we have the capability of being hard. And when things are not hard, we can get soft real quick. And so we have to be, you know, my experience is that we have to constantly be vigilant about that because again, when you're really suffering with things that are hard, you can rise the occasion, but it can be easy to become soft and in bad ways. And being soft, like not taking care of yourself, you're doing yourself a disservice. And, and that's something you have to cultivate. As far as a third, a third lesson, I think that the lesson that I want to always be present to is the lesson that I've also heard you speak eloquently about, which is when you came out, how much you were, how much gratitude you had for the simple things in life. That's something that I want to be more present to I think prison teaches you much more about the. The. The levels of. Of how much can be taken from you. And it teaches you to value intimacy and trust and freedom. There's probably a lot of other lessons, but that's. That's three that I got for now.

What about for you, Shaka?

Oh, man. So many. So I would say one of the big lessons I've learned from prison that applies to life is that even the great amongst us can fall short and that even the lowliest of us can rise again. And that is something I've learned in prison from just being around incredible, incredible men. Some of the most inspiring men that I've ever met in my life. Second lesson that I would say is one of the ones that probably is the most near and dear to my heart is being in service of others is one of the greatest expressions of our humanity. Something that I've carried. You know, I'm always in service of specifically young people and people who are marginalized and who have been forgotten about or demeaned, you know, by society. Then I would just. I think the third one is. It's kind of like the third one is that prison doesn't define you. It just reveals the essence of who you are. And, like, that to me, is rooted in, you know, this question that I get often of like, how did you become so resilient? And I'm like, I didn't go in prison knowing I was resilient. It wasn't until I was in the story that I began to recognize this deeper part of what it means to be able to overcome adversity. And that's what prison revealed to me about myself, is that as someone who's had, I mean, just incredible amounts of trauma and adversity, I also have an indomitable will to overcome those things. And so those are probably the big key lessons. But, I mean, like Chris said, there's so many more. When he was speaking about naming. Naming the things, Right. I was. I was really, like, struck in my spirit by the idea of, like, fear. And something that's really interesting, society, is we always talk about people who are courageous, but you can't have courage if you were never afraid. It's true. Like, if you're not. If you're not afraid, then that doesn't require you to be courageous.

Yeah.

But if you were ever been courageous in your life, if you've ever done anything where you, like, man, it took courage to do that, that means that you had fear and you did it anyway. And so I live my life in that space of like going forward in spite of. And so that was great that we get a chance to name, you know, these feelings and these emotions and these thoughts and like, I'm just so grateful right now to be in conversation with you and learn from your journey.

Likewise to see where it's brought you.

And where it's taking you. So it's incredible.

It's powerful. This is powerful. And again, I'm. For anyone watching or listening, I think anyone can relate to the feeling of not feeling free in their life at some point. And maybe it's right now in a relationship, maybe it's in their career, maybe they don't feel free in their body, they don't feel free in their mind, they feel anxious and stressed all the time. And the goal is how do we create as much inner peace and freedom as possible to experience life to the fullest, have beautiful relationships and feel joy as often as possible.

Amen.

It doesn't mean we're not going to experience challenges and limiting thoughts and grief and sadness and go through hard seasons. But how do we not let those hard seasons turn into hard years and a hard lifetime.

Yeah.

And overcome them through grace.

Yeah.

I'm curious. The. The synchronicities here are really cool. I didn't even realize you guys both went in essentially the same year and you're the same age until we got here earlier.

Yeah.

But it's been almost 35 years since you both went in, is that correct?

Yeah.

You're both 54. You went in around 19. 20. Sorry, 53. 34 years. Almost. Almost 34 years.

Right.

Over three decades, three and a half decades almost since you went in.

Yeah.

If each of you could go back and talk to your younger self the day before the crime or day before the action happened where you got sentenced, essentially. If you could say something to your younger self at this version, like you as now going back shotgun and walking right up to the younger 19 version of you. If you could say something, you had a minute to say something, what would you say? For one and two, do you think what you say would actually matter from you changing and not deciding to take that action?

Yeah.

Would it have made a difference? So I'm curious about that. I'll have you both say reply to this. What would you say to your younger self right before the crime?

Wow, that's a. That's a great question. What I would say to that 19 year old kid is you are deserving of therapy and treatment to address what happened to you and you should feel okay with seeking that out, even though it wasn't offered. And then the second part of that question is that based on my mentoring young men and young women who come from similar backgrounds who have had similar experiences, I think it would have worked, really.

If you were eye to eye with your younger self from your version now.

My version now, if you sat with.

Him before that day happened.

Yeah.

And you said this, you think you could have gotten through your younger self?

I think so. And. And I say that because I've gotten through to enough young men at this version of myself now.

Interesting.

Who have come off, you know, being victims of gun violence, and I've encouraged them to actually seek out therapy. And I've created the space for them to realize that that doesn't make them weak, it makes them human. And that is going to empower them to make different life decisions. And so to get the type of letters I get from the young man that I've met on this part of my journey and how they say that one conversation.

Wow.

Help them think about life differently, make different decisions. You know, it requires what's required to do that is a deep understanding of all those consequences. And you said something earlier that I love, is that when you enter these spaces, you're not doing a Scared Straight program. These young men need to be loved.

Straight, like Jason Wilson, what he's doing, you know, it's like.

Yeah.

And acting eye to eye.

Absolutely.

Being vulnerable.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think it. I think it works in that context because I've seen it work enough times.

Okay. What about you, Chris?

What would you say that that resonates a lot? I think that I would. I would say to that young man, I would name some of those feelings that. That he's feeling, and I would say it's okay to feel those things. You know, these are. These are. And it's okay to get help. And I would try to also point that young man towards the hope of a positive vision for his life and all the joy and love and connection and purpose that he could tap into, because I think he was missing all of that. All those things at that moment. Yeah. I don't know if he would listen if it was just one day, but if I. If I had enough time and if I could. If I could, you know, wrap around him and, like, hold him back from certain things, then maybe it would have changed.

I guess the challenge is, you know, this is what, late 80s, early 90s? When was this? Early 90s, early 90s. There was not even talk of therapy back then. That's the challenge. So it's like, now guys know, they hear of it more, they see it more. That's. If you would have said that word in the early 90s. They'd been like, what? Like, that's a crazy thing. That's. But it's more acceptable now. It's more talked about in culture. You see pro athletes talking about it.

Absolutely.

Artists, you know, you see other men that you might be inspired by talking about these things. But no one's talking about in the 90s.

Yeah.

So who knows if you would have been receptive? I have no idea.

Maybe you would have.

But now these kids are. Who are teenagers, who are more open to it because they see men talking about it, they see Oprah talking about it with you, and they're like, oh, that's cool. That's interesting. It's not a shameful thing to talk about.

Yeah.

Back then, it was a very shameful.

Oh, absolutely.

So that's the.

I think it's a challenge you guys faced culturally.

Absolutely.

In the early 90s.

Yeah.

That it was. You couldn't show any other way than scaring people straight.

Yeah.

You couldn't show vulnerability because there was no model of it that was acceptable. I mean, unless you guys. Tell me wrong. Unless you saw something on TV where men were open and vulnerable and talking to Oprah and doing these things where, you know, they were like, hey, let's talk about our fears and let's talk about our shame. No one was doing that back then, right?

No. No, we weren't. And, I mean, even now, there's. There's. I mean, we're still overcoming and fighting against those stigmas, you know, especially when you factor in some of the environmental realities. Right. And, you know, I think that we're definitely way further along than we ever were back then. But I, you know, also think that, you know, how we even got here is that we had great translators. And, you know, that's what I would have hoped that I could have been for that kid, is how do you translate something that seems so complex and so counterintuitive into something that is, you know, available to you? I mean, that's what I had in prison. I had incredible mentors. And they realized that the approach to me, like, you can't scare me straight. I just came off a street where people were shooting AKs all the time. And so what they. What they saw was that if they could, you know, get me to be just curious about life and reading and things like that, and then they can challenge that Part of me that was very rebellious, right? So I would, I would, these, these mentors, they were master teachers. And what they would do is they challenged me with books and words and they would say, well, you didn't read that book because if you did, what does it say in chapter eight? You know, what was, what was Socrates talking about in this dialogue? What was Malcolm talking about in this story? And I was like, oh, I actually did read it. So now we're in the dust up, right? But it was feeding that part of that young, you know, lion on the yard, all that testosterone and it was just directing it to intellect. And so I would go and had these like incredible debates in the law library with these master teachers without even knowing that they were actually teaching me. They were teaching me how to research, they were teaching me how to defend my position, they were teaching me how to arrive at an argument that I believed in and that I cared enough about to vocalize. And they did it in a way that was approachable. They did it in a way that was accessible. If they would have just came in like, hey, you need to do these things, you know, to change your life. Instant wall would have been up, you know, and so when I think about going back, you know, it's like, okay, you go back with the wisdom of now is that you got to set the table. You know, you have to set the table right for someone to come in and enjoy that spiritually rich food. And if you set the table right, the likelihood of them being able to lower those walls is higher than if you just come in hot and heavy. Like, you know, if you don't do this, you're going to tear up and destroy your life.

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What is the one conversation you wish you could have with every Young man or woman who's going through some type of feelings of being trapped or they've been traumatized and they can't get past the trauma or the feeling of, you know, anxiety, depression, fear, uncertainty. What's the one conversation you wish you could have with any young man or woman?

So the way that I think about it is it's more about the idea of the young man or woman that inhabits the body of adult men and women. Because what you think about this audience inside all of us is that kid, young little boy, intended to. Right. And what I would say is that one of my quotables is like, never settle for mediocrity when greatness is available. That's a conversation I always have with the young people that I mentor, but also with my peers. When we're in deep conversation about acknowledging what exists inside of us, which is that young person who's still looking for validation, still looking to be affirmed, still looking for somebody to bolster their confidence, is recognizing we don't have to stop loving on that little person inside of us. We don't have to stop being curious. One of the chapters in the book is on joy, and one of the breakdowns is about being a joy hunter. How do you go out and find that joy that feeds that inner kid? Because that's how you get to great outcomes, is when you can be curious. I also talk about a mentor who I had. He worked in the prison. I'm curious if you had this type of mentor. But he was a civilian employee, and he asked me a question that literally changed the trajectory of my life.

He was outside of the prison. He would come in and.

Yeah, he came in. Yeah, he came in and ran a recreation program.

What did he ask you?

He asked me what else could I do with my mind? And this was in relation to. He saw my organizational ability because I organized the men on the yard that I went to war with. He saw my entrepreneurial skill set because I ran every hustle you could from the yard.

In the negative sense.

In a negative sense, it was all illegal. But, you know. And then he saw my intellectual acumen because he would read things that I had written in the prison newspaper, and that's when he just pulled me to the side and he was like. Like, you run a yard like you're. You know, I wasn't a model, just to be clear, I wasn't like a model prisoner. Like, I was drug trafficking, ordering hits. I was in full on wars on the yard. And he still saw something that was there. And he Literally asked me that question. What else can you do with your mind?

Interesting.

That's a question I'm asking myself at 53. You know, this is why I've been able to accomplish the many things that I've done. I'm still entertaining that little kid, you know, that, that 19 year old boy, that 22 year old, that 25 year old. And what I would hope is that, you know, your audience takes away is that hitting the prisons has no, no hidden prisons have no age limit. Healing has no age limit. That little kid inside of us deserves to be loved. And so those are the conversations that I, that I would have is like.

Yeah, did you ever hear that from anyone when you were, you know, in your 20s about the kid inside of you deserves to be loved?

It wasn't until I was probably in my 30s, I ran across this random book I worked in the law library and we would get. People would donate books all the time. Like literally like, your books are probably being donated, which is super important. My books are being donated now in the prisons. And sometimes they would just get these boxes of books and they wouldn't pass them out. I come across this book called House of Healing.

House of Healing.

Houses of Healing. And I started reading this book and one of the things that struck me is it talked about resolving conflict by being able to see the little kid inside the person you're in argument with. That changed how I oriented myself at toward the end of my incarceration. And that's the first time I was like, man, this is like, you can, you can, you can love on yourself when you see the kid and other people. And once I, once I started seeing that in other men, I was like, oh, this is a temper tantrum. Like, he doesn't want beef. He's literally having a temper tantrum because he can't name the thing. He can't articulate that whatever happened between us caused some anxiety or trigger some unhealed trauma. But I can see it as clear as day. And it literally changed how I oriented myself in that environment. And, you know, I was able to resolve conflict instantaneously by being empathetic and compassionate while still being firm in who I am. Sure.

Wow.

But I don't have to tear you down or destroy you or stab you or bludgeon you in order for us to arrive at something that honors both of our humanity. Wow. And that showed up in work life. It shows up in my social impact work today. It's like whenever I see an adult having a moment, I'm like, oh, they're just having that, that temper tantrum. Wow. Because it doesn't go away.

Yeah.

Like that trauma that we experienced early in childhood and how, how we learn to resolve that. It doesn't go away, it just comes up differently. Yeah.

And some people, you know, they might not have had the same traumas of you, but they still don't know how.

To deal with it.

Absolutely.

Even it wasn't as extreme right. Of their trauma, it's still. We don't need to judge how much someone's had trauma or little. They've had trauma, they've experienced it, they don't know how to process it.

Our minds has no judgment with trauma. Right. And that's the thing, I think culturally we get into comparative analysis. That's just the way we tell stories in the world. But trauma is trauma.

Yeah.

You know, and, and that it doesn't. You don't have to go. You know, that's what a subtitle is about. The hidden prisons. There's even one part where I talk about well intended prison where it's like you don't even realize this thing is holding you back because on the outside it doesn't look harmful. But it's like you in a relationship, you break up with this person, but you know, like we're broken up, but we'll remain friends. But you say you want to get married and you want to have a relationship, but you have a whole thing that's anchoring your anchor to. Because you haven't cut it loose.

Yes.

You know, it's the helicopter parent. No helicopter parent is sitting out like, hey, I'm gonna be a bad parent. They think that what they're doing is protecting, but it's preventing their child from building resilience, you know, it's preventing them from making choices, et cetera. It's well intended, you know. And so that's the hidden part of all of these things where we, we started to compare ourselves to others experience. And we, we were talking earlier where 19 years is no different to me than 19 minutes of losing your freedom, your dignity, being abused, whatever that brings up. Like, you don't have to compare it. Like hard is hard.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? And so our, the way that our minds work, it's not looking at the package that is delivered in all our mind is saying, hey, something doesn't feel right. This isn't right. And my. I'm going to react to that. Right. And so if you, if you don't even, you don't even have to compare. Yeah, but we've all gone through enough in life to where it shapes how we think about our experiences.

100. Chris, when did you feel like you were able to start doing therapy or any type of therapy to support your journey? When was that?

I mean, I had some therapy when I was in high school, and so I was already, like, hip to it. I was, like, hip to the idea.

Yeah.

And so it was just always something that I pursued when I was locked up. At the time, we had access to Pell Grants and we could go to college, I believe. Same thing happened for Shaka. And so that was a real important thing. That was like a lifeline for me in prison to be able to take classes from professors that would come in. And. Yeah, so I. So I took a lot of psychology classes as well as philosophy, and then I've just kept. I've just kept it up ever since then. So, you know, I like to go to therapy. I like to also listen to podcasts that are, you know, read books and all that kind of thing wherever I can learn emotional intelligence tools.

Where do.

Where do you feel like both of you would be if you didn't do therapy after your experiences?

I think that there's such a. There's such a strong impulse to react as opposed to respond consciously to the. All the things that around us. I think that based on the amount of. Even things that happened to me when I was young, but also from prison, you know, like, I would just be. I would be violent and unruly.

Reactive.

Yeah, reactive. And so that's really, like. That's one of the. The biggest things that I'm. That I'm conscious to, is trying to learn to respond from an intentional, mindful place. And yeah, like I said earlier, I think that this is one of the big problems we have as. As men is that is that combination of. Of not having those tools to overcome those traumas and learn how to respond.

Where do you feel like you'd be if you didn't have some type of therapeutic expression to heal from the past?

Yeah, I. So I've done. I've had a couple of therapists since I've been out of prison, and neither of them work for me, largely because I think they just became so infatuated that I survived solitary confinement.

Like, tell me more.

I kind of became their therapist. And I was like, y' all should be paying me for this. But. But I. I will say the. The. The self practice of healing, you know, doing the hard work, being able to, you know, again, I Was lucky I was literate, you know, so I was able to read a lot of books about trauma, undoing trauma, unpacking it, you know, figuring out these tools that I can use. Meditation, mindfulness, journaling, being in community with, you know, people who were where I wanted to be in my life in terms of how I wanted to feel about myself, people who had a healthy orientation. I would probably be like the other, you know, 70% of people who end up back in prison. You know, society is very unforgiving.

Is it 70% of people that get.

Out of prison end up back in prison? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, it is. So I'm sure I would. I would be counted amongst those. Those people who went back because one society is not as forgiving as we would like to believe. Any of us who've made anything of our lives post incarceration is because we probably had a type of determination and grit to do it the right way that superseded our ability to fall into the depression trap and the. The, hey, I'm a failure. You know, all the things that society is constantly telling you, you know, even going back to shame. You know, I forgot about this piece. Anytime I have to fill out an application and it asks, have you ever been convicted of a felony? You know, that it brings back, like, man, when does this stop? You know, when does. When is enough enough? You know, So I think. I think without.

Yeah, you think I already had the punishment, and now I'm still being. Still being punished even though I did my time.

Y.

So. So we're in a society that doesn't, you know, think kindly about those of us who want to follow the law. It's hard to get employment, housing. I mean, it's 44,000 collateral consequences of having a felony. And so, yeah, I think without the, you know, therapeutic outlook I've had on life, you know, the many failures I've had this side of incarceration, not the times I wasn't called back after a great interview, the times I was denied housing, the times I was denied insurance. And like, the list goes on and on and on where those things can be very much like a trigger that says to you, nothing I do will ever be enough. Right?

Man, how do you overcome that then?

Yeah, so for me, it was realizing that people who've never had a felony have had failure. People who have never had my background have been not. Have not got the call back that they have to overcome maybe different things, but part of this journey of in adulthood is like, you have to fight for what you want in life. And so just that awareness that I'm not alone on this journey and that while it may be specific to my experience, it's not unique in the overall adult experience that's helped me to navigate it, you know? And then I'll say the last part for me was that I never wanted to. Never want or desire to ever, ever have my life controlled by somebody who's intellectually inferior to me. And, like, that was just enough for me to be like, you know what? I'm never going back there. I don't know how I'm gonna. I'm gonna do whatever it takes to stay out, but I know that I'm never going back. I never want to be in that situation again.

Wow.

I want to ask about forgiveness because I think forgiveness is a big part to everyone's life. And I think when we don't learn to forgive specifically ourselves, we are in some type of a prison.

Absolutely.

Internally. So there's forgiving others, you know, the people that maybe influenced you in your environment. Friends, family, outsiders who influenced you to become who you were, to get into that space. But then there's forgiving yourself, which I think can be even harder. Was it harder to forgive the people around you or to forgive yourself? And what allowed you to start forgiving in general?

I'll let you start. I probably. It's harder for me to forgive myself than to forgive other people. What allowed me to forgive myself?

Have you. Have you allowed yourself to forgive yourself?

I think to some degree, yeah. And I think it's a. Just a process that keeps on going and I think continuing to do the work of, you know, living intentionally and putting myself doing good habits, you know, all the same habits that I was working on prison in. In prison and putting myself in service to people and in positive, affirming relationships and maintaining that. I think all that's helping me to forgive myself.

What about you, Shaka?

Forgiveness is the big one. So my journey to forgiveness has been this long, incredible, winding road. And what I will say to your audience is this. When you ask the universe to give you something, the universe is going to test that. And when you proclaim to the world that this is what I believe, your belief is going to be tested in a way that will blow your mind. But if you trust the process, it'll unlock everything you've ever thought possible for your life. Forgiveness for me was that a couple of years ago, I got a letter from the man who shot me. When I was 17 years old.

I saw this. This is crazy. It was so someone shot you at 17?

At 17. And then 16 months later, I shot and tragically caused the man's death.

But you didn't know who shot you?

I never saw his face. It was a 30 second argument, escalated to gunfire. He shot, drove off. I ran and went to the hospital. And all I heard was rumors of who this guy was. I was out. After I got out of the hospital, I'm on a hunt trying to find this guy. And eventually the rumor was that he was locked up for killing somebody else. Never knew if it was true or not. Never encountered him in prison. Nearly 30 years later, I get a letter. This guy encountered one of my books in prison. He's reading the story of me talking about being shot. He realized he was the shooter.

Wow.

He writes me a letter apologizing and saying to himself that he took on the responsibility of the life decision I made that led me to prison, and he felt partially responsible for that.

Wow.

At the time he wrote me he was in prison when I got the letter, what it did is it triggered the old me, I can have this guy taken care of, gone for literal nothing tomorrow, instantaneously. And I was like, oh, this is how the universe tests what you really believe.

Oh, man, that's heavy.

And so what I did is I sat down and I started to write him back. And then I decided that I didn't owe him that letter because if forgiveness for me was really about me. So instead, what I did is I looked him up on the computer. I just wanted to see what this guy who had been a ghost in my life, what he looked like, saw what he looked like. That ghost went away. And I decided to write my mother because I had this experience where I thought I had forgiven my mother for the abuses and all the things as a child. And what I did is that I told her I forgave her because it was a noble thing. And it was all about my ego.

And she didn't feel it.

I didn't feel it. But I also attached something to it, is that now she has to change and become this mother that I desire.

You put a condition on it.

Condition.

Forgiveness with a condition really isn't.

It's not forgiveness. Right. And so that's when I realized that true forgiveness is really about letting go of a moment. And that person doesn't have to change. They don't have to be receptive. They don't have to be anything. If you desire to be free, then you have to free yourself. And when I did that, it just changed the dynamic of my Relationship with my mother where I feel more like the parent now. And the power and the beauty of it is that I get a chance to love on that little girl and her who was hurt that turned into the hurt mother who hurt her kids.

Yeah.

And you may still not enjoy it or you may wish there was a different scenario where I wish my mother could be this way. I wish my mother. I wish I wasn't parenting my mom. You know, you can still have that feeling and also love and accept her and forgive her.

Yeah.

And.

And grieve the loss of a life you wish you could have with her.

Absolutely.

And also love her for who she is at the same time.

And re. Just reimagine a new way of being.

Yes.

And when you let go, fully let go of that thing that you're holding on, life reorients itself. And whether that person is in your life or not, you're not carrying this albatross around your neck that you beat yourself up with over and over. You know, like I learned with my mother that my mother had went through so many things in her young life and I was like, oh, this is the universe is, is delivering on everything that I said I wanted and this. And it's really putting it front and center. You know, you want to be compassionate and empathetic and you talk about being able to love on the child. Well, here, look at your mother. Look at her, Johnny. Yeah, look at her, Johnny. Can you handle what she's went through and see, still see her as a full human being even though she hurt you when you was a kid? That's the power of like.

Yeah.

What's the thing both of you struggle with the most after 33 plus years?

What do I struggle with the most in. In regards to what's still.

What's still something you feel like you struggle with trying to overcome or letting go of that's maybe holds you back from time to time or you wish you didn't have to hold on to or you wish you weren't still reliving or experiencing or.

Yeah, I think that this, one of these questions when I went to jail, this like code of, of what it is to be a man, this kind of, you know, in one of these big questions, it always felt unresolvable to me, which is there's no answer. Yeah, well, this, this. Well, it's like the dilemma of non violence. Right. Like I think that's a very difficult spot to, to find the answer to for me. Yeah. Because like, you know, when I was in jail, I Remember distinctly feeling like this is, you know, being between a rock and a hard place. Because if somebody, you know, threatens you or disrespects you, then you either have to meet that, you have to escalate that with violence, or you have to retreat from it. And either of those choices, both can have very profound consequences.

Interesting.

And I know that there's like, you know, great thinkers that have articulated the non violent.

Yeah.

You know, like, maybe you can't do that in prison. Like you could in, in, outside of prison. Maybe it's different.

I don't know.

Yeah.

But I, I still think it's something that, that, like, you know, we carry with us, you know, and it's. And now maybe I'm doing myself a disservice by, you know, maybe I'm nitpicking because. Because I mean, I don't. I'm. I'm not violent, you know, obviously, but it's just, you know, it's just trying to kind of find like, consistency, more consistency of being feeling peaceful and having harmonious responses like day to day. So. Yeah, I don't know if it's really a struggle, but it's something that I'm conscious of.

Yeah.

Yeah. What about you? Is there anything you still struggle with today?

I think one of the. One of my biggest. The biggest things that I've been unpacking over the years is like, there can be an emotional hardness to me.

Hardness.

Yeah.

Not. Not a tenderness sometimes.

Yeah. Yeah. Where it's very, it can be very. Just kind of like I can cut things off and keep it moving and not even, not even blink. And I don't, I don't like that, you know, some. I'm constantly working on that part of my healing journey. And I think that's probably the biggest one is that, you know, prison. Prison hardens you. Like, you don't, you know, it's. It's one of the things, you know, I tell people. I'm like, you know, Chris and I think we look like two lovely gentlemen and you'll probably have a great time hanging out with us. And then there's a language that only he and I understand that's real. That's true. That's like you can. The way that you orient to the world is very different than what people would imagine when they see the smile and they see the laughter, they see the joy. And then there's this other part of us that comes from that experience. And part of it is that you have to disassociate from your body so much While you're in there.

Wow.

You know, the first arrest and someone strips you naked. It like, there. There's. There's. In order to normalize that level of depravity and that dehumanization, you have to disconnect. And then you're in this very volatile environment where there's constant violent eruptions, and you have to start emotionally hardening yourself toward. Oh, this is just life on the yard. This is just what it is. You know, a guy get into an argument over $2 that leads to bloodshed. This is a normal day in prison. And so when you experience that for year after year after year after year, it hardens you emotionally in a way to where the work that it takes to embrace your humanity and to be compassionate and empathetic. When you see someone that is hurting or who's been hurt or, you know, someone who's having that. You know, that. That adult temper tantrum that's directed towards you and to still be able to love that person and not just cut them off and be like, move on.

And not just go back into that old way of being.

Yeah. Where they no longer exist. Right. And so that is the toughest part of anything else that's been hard is like, the toughest part has been that. And. And how I've, you know, saw for it is like, you know, 1. Being a mentor to young people, being a dad, being a husband, having my little. I have little neighbors. They're like. They're twins. They're like three, and then the oldest boy is like five. And they love me. I think it's the hair. But they, like, if I'm outside and they see me and they just run up and they're like, shaka. You know, and so it's those things that I embrace and I intentionally seek out to kind of soften that. That part of me. But that's tough, you know, it's tough to, like, let that go.

I mean, how do you. I mean, speaking of fatherhood, both of you guys are parents. How do you two kids each. How do you both deal with being fathers? You know, to. To younger kids who learn about your experience, who, like, how do you navigate those conversations, but also parenting without feeling shame and. Or fear for your children, for their lives?

Yeah.

Like, how both of you navigated parenthood.

Yeah. I think for me, it's been. Dr. Safali. She's great. Yeah. Her book on conscious parenting.

She's great.

And one of the things that she just talked about is, like, your children aren't your children. Right. It's like, reminded me of Khalil Jabons, the prophet. And it's kind of like we just get to bear witness to their lives. You know, I constantly remind myself that he has his own journey, you know? And then what I've done as a dad is I've just been intentional about sharing, hey, here's what my life was. Here's where I come from.

What if that's really painful for your kids? What if it's really hard for them, like, to hear that about you because they love you, they care about you? How do you navigate that?

I think kids need to hear hard things, you know, I think it builds resilience. I think they'll be fine. I think we live in a culture now that's kind of soft, protecting them. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, with my son, I was like, well, here. Here's where. Here's what happened, where I knew that I had to tell him the story. Kindergarten, taking him to school. Literally, like, the night prior, Oprah Winfrey was on CNN with Van Jones and Ava DuVernay, and Van asked her a question about her relationship with me.

Really?

And she got so excited, and she was like, oh, my God. I read his book, et cetera, et cetera. I get to the school the next day. I'm standing there dropping my son off. One of the parents comes up, and it's like, oh, my God. I heard Oprah Winfrey talking about you last night on the news. And it was a moment where I should have felt like pride, but I instantaneously thought about my son, because I was like, oh, parents are like, hey, your classmates. Dad was on the news, and, by the way, he was in prison for this. And I instantaneously was like, you know what? He's in kindergarten. I'm gonna just tell him what it is in that language. And then over the years, I've just continued to do it. And, like, now he probably can tell my story better than me because he. I bring him to the events. I bring him into the other side of it. So he used to come to my job where I work with men and women coming out of prisons, in jails. He goes into community events where I'm talking about gun violence and the things, none of which his life looks like. But because that has happened consistently on his journey, he's now mature, you know, to the point where we can have real discussions about it, you know, And I just think that's what, you know, whether it's any other thing. Right. Is with kids is, you know, sex Is Internet is all these things they're going to like, we can't, we can't protect them the way maybe our parents could have protected us a little bit because it's just so invasive. Right. And they have so much access. So I just think as a parent, you know, figure out the right language, you know, consult with professionals who understand that part. You know, reading Dr. Swaley's book was great for me and some of her stuff, but. But I think we're in a world where we have to beat the Internet.

To our children, get ahead of it.

Yeah, we have to.

How you dealt with it, Chris?

Yeah, I mean, I have two children, so my oldest is 28. My youngest is 16. I think trying to be really human with both of my kids and trying to have really honest relationships with them. Reading books, getting advice from different parents. But really from all the lessons I've learned from therapy, like, I think parenting, that relationship I have with my kids, I see it as, just like, I see it as an opportunity to be. To be honest, to be vulnerable with them, to open the door and let. Let them know that they can share anything they want with me. And I just, I take it as like a huge responsibility that I want to be present in their lives and I want to show up for them in. In the most loving way that I can and have a close relationship where they feel they can tell me anything.

I'm curious about both of you guys purpose since like the moment you knew you were getting out of jail. First off, can you share what it was like either? Getting that moment that you knew when you were going to get out and the day you got out. Can you both share that feeling? Were you scared? Were you excited? Was it like, confusing? What was that like first?

Yeah, I can't wait to hear. Chris. I'm always curious, like how other guys experience.

What was it like?

Yeah, well, you remember you were there when I got out.

Yeah, but what was it like for you? I mean, maybe it's exciting, it's fear. I don't know. It's like, could be a number of things.

It was, it was incredible coming home. You know, we. We got together, the siblings were all at the house. They all came back from the different places, and both of our parents brought me in. I remember Lewis was there and I came in and we ordered a pizza and we all cried. You know, all of our siblings, our four siblings. We all.

We made a sign, like, welcome home, Chris.

Yeah.

And what was it like for you? Just like even just getting out for the first time, you know, it's like.

Yeah, it was. It was. It was exhilarating. It was also. It was a lot of emotions. It was a big relief. But it was also like. And I think I've heard Shaka speak about this, there was a period of years where I always felt like I was worried about being out of place, as they say. Right. And you spoke about this too, like, always on tip shows and, like, wondering, are you walking down the street? And somebody walks and they come close to you and you. And if they would have done that in the yard.

Yeah.

You're like, that's disrespect. But they're not even thinking about it.

There's different rules.

And you're so. You're like, constant. Like, I was constantly triggered when I first got.

Got out.

Like, really? I had to stop myself from being, like, super aggressive. Because when you're in the yard, you learn to carry yourself in a certain way, and you stare people down and you, like, you have to, like, huff up and be like. I had developed certain ways of being and communicating and of carrying myself and to try to. I couldn't just change that right away, you know? And so I was really triggered on the street when I first got on the street. But of course, I had all these other great emotions too, like, obviously. Right. You know, like, when getting home, feeling that freedom was. Was wonderful.

And then.

But you had asked. I think you also asked about what was the vision or what was the purpose?

Yeah.

What was.

Did you have a purpose?

Yeah.

After, like, once you knew you were going home, did you have a vision for your life or were you just like. I'm not sure yet. And I'm assuming having a vision and a purpose is going to support. Support you with not being the 70 statistic that goes back.

Yeah.

To jail, I'm assuming. But yeah.

Well, you know, before I got locked up, my purpose was to be a great classical violinist. And while I was locked up, that kind of changed. And I had a vision about becoming a great jazz violinist.

But people that don't know the story. You were classically trained violinist for most of your life. Very gifted. But then you went to jail for four and a half years and joined the prison band and learned lots of different type of musical.

Right.

Skills.

Right.

With inmates who taught you funk and rap and blues and jazz and hip hop and soul and R B and all these different things. So you learn jazz in jail.

Yeah.

Which is pretty fascinating. So his greatest musical teacher. No, he had great musical teachers growing up. Classically yeah. But to expand creatively. His greatest musical teachers were in jail.

Right.

Which made him the musician he is today and the teacher and the educator today.

I fell in love with the music, but I also fell in love with, like, the people that showed me the music and, like, the culture that was behind it. And the feeling that I had of being in the room during the church service and making music in. In these other ways. And there was, like, an insight into. It's like you're looking at the world through this window, and then, you know, for years, and you turn around, it's like, whoa, this is a whole other thing. Which was. And, you know, it was also Appalachian music, too. Right. You know, but especially a lot of black American music and black American culture. I mean, that was just a eye opener for me as a kid, you know, and it was different times back then than it is now. But so.

But it.

It would be proper to say it was an awakening for me. But that's also a little bit awkward for me to talk about because, I mean, it just that whole experience. Because I'm sensitive to wanting to be respectful of what it is and not to be posturing around the whole idea.

You know what I mean?

And so. But. But that's part of why the vision that I had was important to me, actually, because it's like, I want to honor what happened here. And so I don't even need to talk about it to honor it. I can play music and because the people that. That can recognize that there's no word that needs to be spoken, you know, and so, I mean, before you go.

On that, what would we just say to that Shaka? Because I've always encouraged him to speak more about it.

Yeah.

And maybe I should stop telling him to do that.

Yeah.

But I think when he speaks about it, from the experience of learning this style of music from some of his greatest mentors in prison, I feel like he's honoring those men as well, while educating the world about those lessons. But again, no one wants to listen to the younger brothers. So what you think maybe. And maybe it's, you know, on his own time, or maybe it makes sense for him not to do that.

No. I almost think there's, like, almost two different things. There's the musicianship and artistry is what I'm hearing. It's like there's a sacred exchange to happen, and there's a protective element around that. If I'm not mistaken, that's kind of what I feel or what I. What I sense. And I And I truly get that. And then I also think about the stories that go untold and that if they are told, it helps so many people.

Right.

I'm very protective of my mentors who guided me to reading and who guided me to writing. And what I. What I knew is that I wanted to honor these men and that I mentioned their name in rooms that. That they can't even imagine themselves ever being in. Because what it speaks to is the humanity of any of us who have walked those halls of halls of shame and the punitive halls that we existed in. And so I think there's a beauty and a magic to holding on to that sacred. And then I think there's a power and responsibility with. But how do we articulate that in a way that really helps people see the humanity that art galvanizes in an environment where sometimes and oftentimes it's the only hope that people have? You know, it's the only light that we have is those moments when you do a show for the prison and you see people just, like, let loose and the tension goes down and there's no night fights, and they're just like, oh, my God. To see that, you know? And so I think it's a duality there, but all things in their own time, you know? And I think playing the music has been. I mean, I'm so intrigued by your art and so appreciative that I get a chance to bear witness to it and your journey of how you got to it. So I think that's the power.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's probably. It's not that I don't want it, and I appreciate. Thank you for that, first of all. And it's not that I don't want to tell the story. It's what I want to tell it. Right.

You know what I mean?

Like, it's. Because it feels like a heavy responsibility to talk about. But actually, I mean, the film that we're putting out, I think does do it justice because we tell it through poetry, and we've put, like, so much work into it, and that's why. And maybe if I were to write a book or, you know, you know.

The question you asked about, you know, anticipating getting out and the purpose part.

Right.

So I. You know, I started writing in solitary confinement, and initially I was writing to save my own life. I call it my right or die moment. And I was journaling. I realized I had never accomplished anything and so.

Never finished anything.

Never finished anything. Right. And so the idea was, like, just finish one thing and if you finish one thing, you can turn your life around. That just happened to be a book. And then I was like, okay, well, now what do I want to do with this? With this book? Right. What I want to do with my writing. That's when I started to write down the most absurdly, ambitious, audacious goals ever. I want to be a best selling author. I want to meet Oprah. Like, I would. I would just write it down no matter how wild it sounded. Right. And. And then I fell into a bout of depression. You know, we talked earlier about being depressed in prison, so the prison itself is depressing.

Yeah.

But there's another level of depression you can get through where you just don't. You can't even get off the bunk. You know, you're just like, I just want to give up. I just. I don't want to be in this anymore. Yeah. And it was because I realized I had this gift all around and I couldn't give birth to it.

Oh, what was the gift that you couldn't give birth to? Writing. Writing.

I had wrote those letters and my family would be like, write me more letters. They're so detailed. I'm not thinking of myself as a writer. You know, Tom asked me, what else could I do with my mind. I'm just writing prison articles. I'm not thinking I can become a real writer. And so. But once I went through that depression, which was probably about a year, I had wrote two books, started a third, fell into depression, couldn't finish it. And then eventually I got out on the other side of it. I went back to my books. You know, as a man, think of the secret, all these different books. I would go back and read them and, you know, Nelson Mandela's, you know, long Road to Freedom. I would just go back and read these books and read them, trying to get my brain to move forward. And then eventually I was like, okay, finished the third book, finished the fourth book, started a publishing company in prison. The same year I went up for parole, which was 2008, published my first book from prison, got sued out of prison, got denied parole, went back up 2009, got denied parole again. And I almost gave up. You know, at that point, I had 17 years in. I knew how to do time. No, actually, I had 18 years and I knew how to do time. And I almost gave up. And then I went back and how I felt when I got the news that I was getting out, I was never forget, I came in the unit, this officer, she was joking with me. She was like, hey, I got something big to tell you. Me and her had kind of a flirty relationship. So I'm like, I don't know what it is, you know, she's like, meet me down at the cubicle. Went down to the cubicle. She was like, they're letting you go home?

Wow.

And I was just like, whoa. And so I went around to the concert. I wanted to ask the counselor, but I didn't want to kind of, you know, reveal that she had already told me. So I go in, I'm asking the counsel some random stuff, hey, can you check my account? And she was like, oh, actually, you're leaving. You'll be transferring in a couple of weeks. You're going to Detroit for the reentry program. You're going home.

Wow.

And I was like, yo, this is crazy.

So this is real.

This is real. So I go back around to the cubicle, yard opens up. My brother in law was there and a friend from our neighborhood, they were both there serving time. I went out and walking and talking to yard with him. I'm like, yo, I think I'm going home. They said it. I don't got the paperwork yet though. And so we walk and talk and, you know, they're excited for me. I'm excited, you know, and come back in. And when they passed out, mail call, they gave me the paper. They was like, you're going home. June 22, 2010.

Wow.

One day after my 38th birthday.

Wow.

And so I literally called my dad. My dad answered the phone and I was like, dad, I got my parole. And my dad let out a guttural cry, a rejoice that he had held pent up for 19 years. And it was like, holy smokes, you know? And so I knew when I got out, my plan was, I'm gonna get out, I'm gonna hustle these books out of the trunk of the car, get out. I'm gonna just sell these novels and eventually I'll make it. And so I get paroled. They take me from the prison to the parole office. I get to the parole office and I'm inside and I literally asked the lady, hey, can I go outside? Really? And she was like, what are you talking about? Like, you're free. You go where you want to go.

Wow.

And I was like, yo, I'm still asking permission. So I get there and I'm outside and my son's mom comes to, you know, pick me up, up at the time. And she has the books with her. And I sold my first book In a parking lot. The first book in the parking lot I still have. It's the funniest picture ever. I got on these big baggy shorts that were probably from the 90s, an oversized T shirt, and I sold that first book 15 years ago. I've been selling books ever since. And so when I came home, that's what I. I thought that was my purpose, was just to sell these novels. And I ended up right in my wrongs after prison. And that book skyrocketed. But I wrote it for that reason where I would go and do these talks and people would say, you don't sound like someone who's been in prison. And they meant it as a compliment. But I was like, I just left some of the most brilliant scholars, some of the greatest legal minds, some of the greatest writers, thinkers, comedians, you name it. Those were the men I served time with. That's what inspired me to write Right and My Wrongs. I wanted people to understand that whatever landed us there was not the defining part of who we all are. We're still humans. We're dreamers, builders, doers. We're all these things. And to tell that story. And so once that happened, that book came out, people would come up with me and they would just tell me all type of stories. And in the last couple of years, I've really been questioning what has been my purpose all along. I thought it was to sell novels. I haven't done a novel deal yet. You know, I thought it was prison re entry. That's really not what that was about for me. That was about my friends are incarcerated. What I realized is that. That my purpose in life is to help people find the door to their own personal freedom. Like, that's what I know with certainty. There's, like, there's a lot of things that I don't know, and there's a few things that I know with certainty. And one of them is I am certain what I'm here to do.

Wow.

In the world.

And that can be expressed through different avenues.

Absolutely.

Books or through work or through speaking or all sorts of things.

Yeah.

That's interesting that you got clear with that purpose. And I think we're going back to depression, talking about how depressing prison is.

Yeah.

But I think most people are living in depression in their own prison. And I think a lot of people are depressed because they are discounting themselves or doing a disservice from actually expressing their truest gifts.

Absolutely.

And finding their purpose. And they know, like you said, you knew there was more inside of you, but you weren't doing it. You weren't accomplishing things. You weren't finishing things. And that depression, like, captured you. I think a lot of people are depressed because they know they're doing a disservice to what they truly want to.

Be doing in the world.

Yeah.

And so the purpose side of things, how do you go? I mean, both of you have a purpose now. It's so funny you say that you have so many synchronicities and similarities, because.

Absolutely.

I have vivid memories of Chris after he got out of prison. He made a. His first album. I think it was a CD called 10 yard. I think it was your first one. Right. It was your first album called the.

Second One, but Second One, I mean.

You have, what, almost 20 albums. 19 albums. But his second album was called 10 Yard from his experiences in the yard. And I remember him doing these little bar, restaurant, clubs right afterwards.

Yeah.

And taking his CDs and just handing them to people and selling them one by one.

Yeah.

You sold books one by one.

Absolutely.

You were both expressing your art after jail and doing it one by one, trying to make a difference and an impact.

Yeah.

And today, both of you, you know, Chris has taught over a thousand schools, teaching music education, expressing yourself through music. He has a camp called the Creative Strings Workshop. It's a yearly camp that brings musicians in from around the world and to express themselves creatively. You do this through speaking, through writing, through workshops, through all these different things. So you guys are both doing your purpose in a beautiful way, and I'm grateful for that. But a lot of people, I feel like, don't even know what their purpose is, or even if they do know it, they discount themselves from actually pursuing it.

Yeah.

They live in fear. And that's a prison of itself in my mind.

Absolutely. And, you know, I think that's what, you know, if people take nothing else from this. This conversation, what I would hope they would take from it is life as a metaphor. We were. We've done the hard work for the audience, and we were. We were physically incarcerated, and yet we found a freedom through artistic expression, through meditation, mindfulness, community. All the things that we've talked about.

Yes.

Those are things that are replicable and can be easily modeled in any facet of life, you know, so if there's something that you feel is holding you back, like, you have to. 1. You just have to. You have to call that thing what it is, and then you get a chance to decide, what are you going to do about it? You know, and that's the beauty of, like, you know, where we started from. We're not supposed to be sitting here based on the statistics. You know, we're sitting here because we made choices in spite of, you know, we made the hard. The harder choice is to try to figure out how to do your purpose when you're not getting the big checks. You know, you're selling two books and two CDs, and, you know, three people are showing up to your show, and you got to perform like it's 3,000. Or, you know, two people show up to your. Your book signing. And. And yet you got to keep making just one step after the next. And for. For me, it's like you count all those victories and you accrue enough of them, and you'll see life really, you know, it's just like training, right? It's like you lift, you start to get stronger, and you're like, oh, okay, I'm getting some action. But you got to be consistent.

Yes.

To get the strength that you desire, you know? So, yeah, life is metaphor.

I want you guys. I'm gonna have you guys, Chris is gonna play a song, and you're gonna read a poem here in a second. Before we do that, I want people to know more about your book. It's called how to Be Free Again. If you want to be free in your life, this is the book for you. A proven guide to escaping life's hidden prisons. So make sure you guys check out this book that breaks down a lot of the different strategies on how to create personal freedom from the strategies and techniques that you've talked about as well. Chris has a movie called Redemption Time. And you can go to redemptiontimeshow.com it's touring throughout the US and this year, next year. And people can learn about it by going there and checking it out. But it's a 70 minute performance film featuring poet Jimmy Santiago Baca, who was Chris's poetry mentor that you found his poetry in jail. That really gave you some personal freedom. Along with Christian house jazz, My Linus and two were formerly incarcerated artists who transformed their lives through creativity and through poetry, jazz and their own stories, they reveal the trauma of incarceration and the redemption power of art. Something you talked about is the importance of art and mentors in everyone's life.

Absolutely.

By having a place to experience art and express art and having a place to find mentors and connect with mentors is a powerful thing. I think this conversation, you two are powerful mentors. For anyone watching and listening right now.

Absolutely.

And if anyone's struggling in isolation, I highly encourage you reach out to a boys and Girls club. If you're a teenager, reach out to local mentors. If you're an adult, seek mentors online. Read books, watch movies that support your critical thinking. But find mentors and express your art.

Absolutely.

And I've got a couple final questions at the end, but I want you guys to. Chris has got a song that he wrote that's in this film. So I want people to hear this. Shaka is gonna read a poem that you've never read before. So this is never read. This is a first time experience of you guys performing together.

Okay. So this is a part of a poem written by Jimmy Santiago. Baca and I wrote the music to go behind a lot of his poetry in our film. That's called Redemption Time. And this is like the redemptive moment at the end where Jimmy gets out. So the film has like, you know, 10 to 12 different, like, episodes over 70 minutes. And each one of them address, like, different themes of manhood, trauma, and all these kinds of things. But this is like the. The. The redemptive moment. So I thought it would be cool to have Shaka read the poem and try to do my best to.

To kind of truly on it, you know? Thank you.

I'll try to render it here with just the fel. So, you know.

When I came out of prison, I didn't have a plan to go back to crime. I came out of prison with one guy gift. And I'm about to tell you what that gift is. Not a gun, not a criminal, but a gift. I'm offering this poem. I'm offering this poem to you. Since I have nothing else to give. Keep it like a warm coat when the winter comes to cover you. Or like a pair of thick socks that cannot fight through. I love you. I got nothing else to give you. So it's a pot full of yellow corn to warm your belly in the winter. It's a scarf to wrap up around your head on windy days. I love you. Keep it. Treasure this as you would if you were lost. Need direction in the wilderness that life becomes. When you're mature. Tucked away like a cabin in the trees. You come knocking. I'm going to answer you. I'll give you directions. I'll let you warm yourself by this fire. I'll let you rest by this fire. I'll make you feel safe because I love you. And this is all I gotta give. I ain't got nothing else. And all anyone needs to live and to go on living inside when the world outside no longer cares if you live or die. Remember, remember, remember. I love you. I love you. I. I love you.

Yeah.

My bro.

So good, man. So good.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And thanks to Jimmy Santiago. Baca.

Big shout out, Jimmy. This incredible writing and such a gift. Wow. And I love you.

Wow. I love you, man.

This has been. Wow.

Like, so cool to meet you today, man.

Likewise, brother.

What's been the bit. What opened up for both of you while playing that with each other after this conversation and after, you know, what you've talked about in your book and what you've gone through for 10 years in your movies, what opened up for both of you during that moment?

Oh, man. This is my brother. This is my brother, man. And we're super proud of you and what you're doing in the world and honored to know that our stories are, you know, trusted, you know, and your art is, you know, giving birth to new listeners that'll hear our stories and, you know, it'll help a lot of people. So I feel this true kindred spirit and brotherhood. You know, we've been through something that most people can't comprehend, but we both know that language, both spoken and unspoken. And so to be able to share this moment with you, man, is enriching my life. So thank you, my brother.

Wow. That's powerful.

Thank you. Beautiful, man.

What opened up for you, Chris? What was during playing that?

Playing it.

I mean, shotgun and just doing this experience together.

Yeah, it felt. It felt. It felt great. It brings me back to what you were talking about, because when you're in jail, you make do.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I was like, I'm not gonna let any of that stuff, like, I got the violin. We're just gonna make this happen.

Yeah. Yeah. One take, first task.

Beautiful.

It's powerful. It's powerful, Powerful, man.

I can feel it. I can feel it.

Wow.

That's cool.

That's cool.

But also, yeah, I mean, really getting to meet you, and I've listened to a bunch of your stuff and heard you talk, but getting to speak to you and be with you in the room, it feels like a homecoming for me. It gives me a lot of openings in my heart about how I can lean heavier into telling my own story, because I think you do it so well.

Thank you.

And so it feels like a great encouragement for me, and not only to share my story, but to step into more community with more folks that are doing this work, and just to lean into it more. The fullest expression of who I am, getting clearer on whatever that purpose is and how I can show it. So thank you, brother, for opening it up for me.

Of course, number one, both you guys connect for a while. Been telling you guys about each other for a while. I'm curious. You both gave a piece of advice to your younger self at 19, if you could. I wonder if you could both give one piece of advice to what you see in another. What do you see in Chris that you see he should keep continuing to do or encouragement or.

Yeah, yeah. I would say my words of wisdom and take them as you may. You have such an incredible, powerful gift and coupling that gift with a unbelievable story of reimagining a life for yourself. Like, there's power in that. There's power in it, not just for you, but for others. And you get a chance to really help other people salvage their lives, reimagine their lives. And think about those who are brothers and sisters, who we've left behind, and knowing that they're counting on us and looking forward to us being able to tell their stories and the telling of our own stories. And so what I would encourage is to really embrace it. Embrace the power of your own story, to help others and to make sure in the doing of that, just create space for yourself to breathe and to reach out and just. Even if it's at the talk and say, hey, bro, I just got off the stage. I just need an ear. I'm here to be able to hold space for you. And there's many others who would be honored to hold space for you. And I'll just encourage you to keep imagining different ways to tell that story and to tell many stories. And obviously, we'll collab on some stuff, but I would just say lean into it. You've earned it. You've earned the right to tell the story. You've got the stripes, you know, you got the wounds, you got the things. And so now there's an opportunity to, you know, relieve some of that by helping others never have to endure it. And so that's the power that you hold in your hand and your violin and your story, your voice. And lastly, I would just say lean on the wisdom of your younger brother. He really has not got here without a dedication to an incredible craft. He's built something that's monumental, historical, and his leadership is proven. He has a proven track record. And there's power in leaning into the little brother who's willing to help you and support you on your journey. It's a gift.

Thanks. Thank you. I think a lot of men are going to see you as somebody who represents strength and to you get to be able to define Manhattan manhood for generations of men. Right? And I think that you do, I think you, I think you do a great job of that. I think you come across as being very naturally who you are. And I think that who you are is very multidimensional and it's warm and it's soulful and it's empathic and compassionate and also strong. I think giving men in explicit terms, talking about these things, talking about fear, talking about shame, talking about guilt, talking about how do you respond to the urge to be violent and kind of this. If we say the warped definition of what it is to be a man, how does a man on the street going to deal with if they're disrespected, how are they going to address that without putting themselves into a self destructive cycle, without destroying themselves really, while throwing away their own life? I think that you already are doing that. I think you're already speaking to men from that. And I already see all that in you and hear it in your stories. But I just want to reflect that back to you and for you to know that that's how you're received. And in case that makes you want to lean into any of those themes in explicit ways. And you might want to ask people that question, your audience, whoever you want to speak to and whoever you want to hear your message, you might want to ask them, what are you looking for from me? What are the answers you want me to answer? Because I know you get a lot of inspiration for these books. So I'm already thinking about what's your next book? Maybe some of those answers to what you're going to write about is going to come from people in your audience.

The advice that both of you guys are giving or what you see in each other is what I want the audience also to know that they should be listening for themselves.

Absolutely.

Because what you guys are speaking to each other. I'm assuming everyone listening or watching has some type of insecurity or doubt or hidden prison that's holding them back from pursuing their greatest version of themselves, their gifts, their potential. And there's an unlock for everyone watching, listening, including all three of us, to our next level of greatness, which you talked about. And so to wrap things up, I'd love for you both to share your three lessons you would leave with the world. Imagine you get to live as long as you want to live from this moment until the last day. And if you could share three lessons, three truths to the world, simple as they wanted them to be, or profound as they wanted them to be, what would those three lessons be? And maybe you've already shared shared them, so just recap them.

Yeah.

And what is each one of your definition of greatness as well? So three lessons you would leave with the world from your experience and then definition of greatness.

I'll let you start three lessons. I. I would say the first lesson is to embrace this magic carpet ride we call life with the spirit of gratitude. I'll be thankful, Lily, for every moment you're in. Good, bad and different. It just makes life so incredible. Show up in service. The second lesson will be show up in service of others. Meet a need that someone has without expectation of anything in return in the universe will reward you abundantly for your care and consideration. The third thing would be read if you are literate or listen if you're not, to books and stories and journeys of other people. I think that's one of the most magical gifts that we have, is access to stories of others who have walked similar, different paths than we've walked. Just learned so much from life through other people's stories. And the third part, what does greatness mean? Greatness to me means that there is an acceptance that inside of us there is a connective tissue that is rooted in whatever the creative force in the world we imagine it to be, whether it's God or any other entity or way of being. But there's a connectedness that we have that is the power source that allows us to imagine and birth into the world anything that our hearts can dream of and desire. That's what greatness is to me. Like when I think about my journey, where I started from, where I'm at today, is that I lean into this idea that there's a greater power that always wants the best for us. And if we just attach ourselves to that energy, anything is possible.

Wow. It's beautiful. Chris, three lessons you would leave behind. What are those for?

You lean into your relationships and make them as deep as you possibly can. Whether it's your, you know, your kids, your parents, your brother, your siblings, your friends, your students, the people that work with you, your colleagues. Those relationships are the place where you get to really express yourself fully and feel a lot of connection and a lot of purpose. I would say constantly work to re articulate your vision or your purpose for your life. If it means every day you think about what am I committed to? What do I want to stand for what are the things I want to feel give and what are the things I want to contribute? Third lesson, I'll go with gratitude. As Shaka said, I'll say if you can try to look for something to be excited about and to feel that joy like the day that we walked out of prison, then look for it. My definition of greatness, I think that just if I were to tie it to some of the men that I've met in prison and what I saw in them as greatness was the ability to really deeply feel whatever it is that you feel, whatever suffering that you feel and whatever fear that you feel, whatever anxiety that you feel and still be willing to push through to try to make the best of yourself that you can. I think that that's a representation of greatness. Nice.

Well, for everyone watching and listening, I hope this gave them a sense of peace and hopefully a path towards freedom. And hopefully it gave both of you another connecting element of telling your stories to feel more free, for more alive and know that both of you are doing your doing an amazing job of being of service to people watching and listening. So I acknowledge you both. Thank you guys both for being thank.

You so much for having me.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well.

Let me know what you enjoyed about.

This episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worth, worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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