The Key Principles to Being the Best Parent You Can Be While Avoiding Burnout w/ Cathy Cassani Adams EP 1275

We still offer them everything we have, but it doesn't mean they can kind of take what works and let go of what doesn't.

Sure.

You know, and so this is really kind of a broader concept of don't we trust that our kids know who they are too.

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to who help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest, Kathy Casani Adams is in the house. So good to see you.

So good to see you. Thank you for having me.

Very excited about this, Zen Parenting. I feel like there's a lot of pain in the world today with parents. One, because they didn't have parents who really were there for them emotionally to listen, to love, to connect in a way that they needed as children. Therefore, they learned certain strategies to protect themselves. They became parents, had kids typically in their early 20s or late 20s without developing the tools of healing and therefore passed down strategies that they witnessed from their parents. Some were maybe effective in getting them good grades or accomplishing or making money or whatever it might be safety, but maybe didn't help them feel fully seen, fully expansive in their full potential and their authentic self. Maybe they felt like they had to prove things, maybe they had to live up to parents expectations. And therefore, some of that is still falling down on the next generation. I'm curious, what do you think is the biggest challenge with parents today who have kids? The biggest challenge and also we'll start with the biggest tool that you wish every parent could learn and master. To have a better relationship with themselves and their kids.

Compassion. You know, going back to what you just said about we're raised a certain way and that's our experience and we, a lot of us, you know, I talk to parents and they'll say, well, I turned out okay, so I'm just gonna do the exact same thing. Or I'm gonna remember what my parents said to me and even parents who say, I'm never gonna do what my parents did. And then it just becomes an autopilot thing, right?

Why is that?

Well, because if you haven't launched into kind of a self-awareness place where you're really considering, why do I do what I do? Why do I say what I say? If you haven't taken that journey and it's ongoing, ongoing, it never ends. But if you haven't looked into that, then of course you're gonna do what was said to you. Makes complete sense. Whatever was said to you is what you will say because you're confronted with the exact same kind of situation. But the reason I say compassion is because you have to recognize that you, that parenting is gonna be messy and you're not gonna say the right thing all the time. You are gonna go back in time. You are gonna say things that maybe you wish you could take back. You are going to have experiences that you wish you could do different, but that's all part of the process. And compassion is, okay, let me try that again tomorrow. Or let me recognize that I, like you said, I didn't get this when I was young. And so I'm having to build this bridge between, you know, not only am I having to be with my child, but I'm having to work on myself at the exact same time.

Oh gosh. Realizing all these things from childhood that maybe you didn't get and you're still healing and process.

It's the greatest mirror. I felt like before I even had kids, I just, I love laughing at myself at this because before I even had kids, I started doing all the self-help stuff. I started it when I was like 16 or 17. My parents did a, It's called something called Forum. Have you heard of Forum? Of course.

Landmark, exactly.

My mom did it for like 30 something years. Absolutely. I think my parents did one weekend. But they ended up coming home with all these books and tapes. So I was listening to Wayne Dyer. I was listening to Brian Tracy. I was listening to all these things, like in my car, like tape. You know, I'm 50 years old, you know, it was like- So a cassette. Cassette tape, exactly. And so I've always been thinking about these things and there's been fits and starts. But so I thought, and I'm also, I'm a teacher. you know, elementary school teacher. I am a social worker. I'm a clinician who works with kids and families. So I thought when I became a parent, this was just gonna be, you know, just kind of like my experience with kids already. Sure. It's completely different because I am confronted with myself.

What was the biggest thing you had to face personally for yourself?

How they, let's see, how do I say this? How they made me question who I am. how they made me question why I was doing what I was doing, how the structures that I had come up with for education and for work were very linear. You know, you do this, you know, we were talking about success before we started. You know, you make this choice, you get good grades, you get into this club, you do this activity, you move up the ladder. When I decided to get my master's in social work, I knew where I wanted to work. I worked at a hospital in Chicago, got my office, I took all the steps. With parenting, it's nothing like that. It's a lot of being very present with your children, whatever they need in that moment, thinking that you have the best sleep plan ever, and they do not take naps when you say, you know, I remember one book specifically, and I won't say it, but it would say, you, kids should take naps at this time, and this time, and this time. It doesn't happen that way. They're human beings. So it makes you question kind of your whole format for how you live. I could launch into all the issues that I dealt with with my, I had an identity crisis. I was raised by parents who were like, you can do anything you want to do. You can grow up and have this career, which I felt like I did. And then when I became a mom, it wasn't about me anymore. I had a very, I struggled with how I was completely engaged and overwhelmed and bored to death. at the same time because it was the same kind of thing.

Same routine over and over.

Same routine. And I knew that's where I wanted to be. I wanted to be a mom. I have three daughters and I love them dearly and deeply and I love the choices I've made. But it doesn't mean that I didn't have a loss at the same time.

My sister just had her first child and she didn't think she was able to have kids for many years. She's gonna be upset if I don't know her exact age, but she's 43, I believe. And it was kind of like a miracle, because for five years she was trying to have kids, couldn't have kids. And she just kind of let it go. I guess, you know, I'm not gonna have kids. And she was really saddened by this for a number of years. And then she got pregnant randomly. And it was kind of like, oh, wow, okay, I guess I'm gonna have this child. And then she started to realize after many months, Oh, there's gonna be an identity loss. There's gonna be a grieving. Like, I was planning to do this marathon and this triathlon and this thing, and I had these plans, and now those plans are gone. And before she had her child, this is like a month ago, she was like, okay, I'm just really unsure about how I'm gonna feel about my identity as I have this child. And then over the last month, she's like, it's the greatest thing in the world. I'm so in love, right? I'm so in love. It's all okay. I don't need to get back to my things right away. But I'm assuming after a period of time, after a year of doing the same thing every day, like you said, it was kind of boring, right? There's this boring sense, this everyday routine. What do mothers need more than ever today to not be seduced by the charm of social media, what all these other moms seem to be doing? How do you create excitement and adventure in your life, but also appreciate the day-to-day moments of boringness?

Yeah, well, the two things that I think of, and again, I didn't, you know, my girls are in, they're teenagers, so obviously I've dealt with social media as a mom, but not in those early days.

I didn't have it.

I didn't have it. So, but I think the answer is pretty much the same in that, first of all, you do need to have, if you are in partnership, I work with a lot of moms who are single moms, so this isn't always the case, but if you have a partner, to start very early with sharing all the responsibilities.

Really?

Yeah, absolutely. It was something that with my husband, when we had my first daughter, we hadn't really, that was another part of the identity crisis, where he kept going and achieving, and I kind of came to a standstill. Yeah, and you stayed home. I sure did. I did, and again, my choice, something we had discussed, this is what's difficult. It's very paradoxical because when I talk about it honestly, it doesn't mean I would do it differently. It just means two things are happening at once. And with our first daughter, I had a big, I write about it, but I had a big breakdown at about six months where I realized I was leaving for Target and I had to ask him if he would either watch our daughter or should I take her. I was asking permission. and I had a big breakdown about why do you never have to ask permission to go anywhere? You just keep going, you just keep doing what you're doing. And I feel like my life is she and I, and you either come in when I ask or you don't, and then I'm left. And so it really began a conversation for us that is ongoing. We talk about it all the time because it still shows up. These gender norms, these roles that we play, they're very ingrained. I grew up with a dad who worked and a mom who was a teacher, but she stayed home with us and I knew that was something I wanted to do. And he had a very similar situation. So you really have to have an ongoing conversation about how do you want this to look? What kind of relationship do you want with your children? Do you want them, do you want to be the one making lists and saying, do this and do that? Or do you want your partner to have the exact same experience as you do, where they're learning on the fly? So partnership is one of them, and then community. I mean, I know that everybody says it takes a village to raise a child, but I can't say how important that is if it be other family members. We didn't have a lot of family around us, but we had a little. And then friendships and people who are going through the same thing, other mothers where you can see the reality of parenting versus the social media aspect of parenting, the day to day.

When did it get to a point where it didn't feel boring anymore for you?

When it was like... Well, there's still aspects of it that are because, right...

You'Re dropping a kid off, you're waiting for two hours at a rehearsal, you're sitting there, you're on their time now.

Exactly, exactly. So there are parts of it that just are, you know, you have, there are things that you do that are repetitive and you're committed to them, but there is a sense of, you know, you know, when can I get to go do my thing? I'm focused on everybody else's, but I would say that when your kids are really little and they start being more, they're moving more, they're, you know, more social, maybe they're spending time with, you know, you have a play group, you know, you're not bored anymore, then you're super busy. I think the deepest boredom is when they're infants. And again, it's like sometimes it's wonderful where you're taking naps in the middle of the day with them or you're enjoying reading a book. It's really, it's funny 'cause every part of Zen is, you know, this book is part of its paradox that you don't get to have it one way. You know, if you are having, you know, wonderful experiences often mean you're giving up another experience. And so you're making choices and the hope is that you're going back and forth a little bit. The hope is that you get to have both, but maybe not at the exact same time. Sure.

What would you say are the three biggest things that stunt children's growth that parents do today?

Not listening, having when children are telling you who they are, and you say back to them either in some version, no, you're not, or you can't be that, or it's not okay with me. And you can see how that gets to be close to cruel. If a child is saying, I'm this and you're saying, I'm not going to let you, that is a big breakdown of connection. I think another, you know, I started by talking about compassion and I think that the reason that I talk a lot about self-compassion and, you know, having some grace with yourself is if you're practicing that, then you obviously can do that a lot easier with your children. Of course, you know. So I think compassion is another one. And then, you know, we were talking about play before we started, or you guys were, and fun and humor. I think that one of the reasons I have enjoyed parenting is because I have tried to be fully myself in parenting. I think a lot of parents like to take on a role of parent and be a certain way with their kids, and then they're different with their partners or with their friends. And I have tried to be every aspect of who I am with my kids, which means I'm kind of, I don't know if they'd say I'm funny, but I try to be funny. I dance, I sing in the car, I have my own style, I talk to them about, I love pop culture, I talk to them about it all the time, ad nauseam, my music. And so I'm sharing with them who I am.

That's cool.

Yeah, that's been one of those parts of parenting where I think we were talking about boredom or when things get difficult, I think one of the reasons it can get boring or difficult is if you're trying to be something you're not. I think it's been less of that for me as I figured out, I'm just going to, instead of do the role of mom, I'm gonna show up as myself as a mom. It feels different.

Sure.

Yeah.

And what's the difference between, I guess, positive parenting and toxic parenting?

Well, they're extremes and there's always something in the middle, right? Those are the binary, toxic and positive. Not that we ever wanna add toxic in, it's not that, but there are sometimes things we say that we didn't realize we're gonna hurt our children. Maybe there's things that we, you know, talking about listening, sometimes we are doing our best to listen, but we miss something and it really can offend our children or make them upset and they may feel like, that's toxic, you know, that word is used a lot now, right? But really we're in this situation, again, have some grace. I would really like to hear and understand, I just missed a point or let me sit down and rest for a minute so I can actually hear you and not be on the go so much. I think positive parenting, you know, it's, I think about positive psychology when I think about positive parenting in that positive psychology, the gist of it is I'm going to notice what's working. I'm going to focus on what's working. I'm going to pull from the strings of what's working. So instead of being with kids and figuring out what's wrong or worrying about why they're different or how do I get them to do this, I'm gonna focus on what makes them them, and I am gonna pull from that. And that's kind of, again, some support that I offer parents is what do they love? Instead of they're not doing this or they seem anxious, but when do they thrive?

So do more of the things that support their growth as opposed to trying to fix the things that are maybe different or unique about them, right?

Absolutely, because we come into parenting with a dream, you know? We come in thinking, this is how my kid is going to be. They're going to be like me. They're going to have my value system. Maybe they'll do my sport, maybe they'll do my theater. And they may not be like that at all.

Yes.

And so how do we show up for this person in front of us?

That's so challenging. I mean, this is-- I don't know if I was going to take it here, but that just unlocks something for me. Sure. Because you grew up in a certain environment in a certain way in your life. and I can only imagine how challenging it is for parents if the kid doesn't grow up the same way as them or similar to them, right? If they are trans or gay or gender fluid or any number of things that they're leaning into or they're becoming more of, or choosing or being whatever you whatever they are. How do parents navigate the, because I feel like when a child is not fully developed, it's hard to make conscious decisions. When I was 18, I was still not making conscious decisions. When I was 27, I wasn't making conscious decisions because I felt like I was really developing still from a wounded place. So I was choosing out of pain, not from peace. doing things because out of like hanging on to something or trying to fit in or belong, not because it was fully my nature or who I was. And I'm not sure how to approach this. You know, I'm not a parent, but I'm not sure how parents can approach this when a seven-year-old says, well, I'm not this gender. I'm a different gender. when the brain is not fully developed, or when something like that happens. Not saying it's right or wrong, good or bad, but how do we manage and navigate a child that's not developed, that wants to change their nature into something else? How do we navigate that by not saying, no, that's not what you are, and listening to them, but also putting some practicality into stages of life.

Mm-. Yeah, I think I-- It's like, okay.

You can't have a tattoo when you're seven. Right. We're gonna wait till you're 18, then you can have tattoos all over your face.

Right.

If you wanna do that, right? It's how do you navigate this? Because you're in the social working world, you're in this experience with kids who are probably in pain, confused. Maybe they're clear and they're making decisions, but it's like, how do you navigate this? Because a lot of these things weren't as as present 20 years ago, right?

Right, well, or there wasn't a space for them to share it. That's always the question.

There was a shame that they couldn't share it, right?

That's a, you know, I hear that from parents all the time, like this seems new and it's really not that new. It's just now we have an environment where there's an opportunity to share who you are. And I think I look at it from two sides. Number one, like you were talking about, a lot of us go into our adulthood and we do have wounding. We have an experience that was really harmful. It could be some kind of emotional abuse, physical abuse, or an inability to be who we are and to show up the way we wanted to. So we kind of fit into a mold and that in itself creates a sense of not knowing who you are, misalignment, wounding. And so the hope is, so one part of it is when you're raising your child, maybe to not do that. Don't get ahead of that. To not create that wounding. And so they can not have to, I always think about, you know, us as onions, not have to unplug to peel all that going through, you know, instead of like, we're constantly working on what happened in childhood, maybe, you know, there's no way to get it perfect, but decrease the likelihood of these deep wounds. How do we do that? By listening to what they're telling us. Now, the, the thing is, is to your point, I, I can't speak for every child who is thinking about their gender or their sexuality or even just something about the sport they want to be in or, you know, it I can't speak for everybody, but I feel like if they're telling us something, we show up and we listen and we do our best to walk through it with them. Does it necessarily mean, not every situation ends up in something that is irreversible. Not every situation, every situation is different. But I can tell you, you know, that I work with a lot of families who are walking with their children right now through things that they couldn't have imagined. But there's such connection in the family. There's such trust.

Like what? Give me a couple examples.

Well, I have, you know, a few families that I'm working with who have transgender children and their ability to listen to their child, support them, and they are, they're older. They're not, you know, seven year olds. They're older and they're, you know, Late teens, early twenties.

Yeah.

But the connection that they have, the relationship that they have created with their child where their child knows. I mean, you, and I can't say it off the top of my head because I don't know the statistic, but the suicide rate for children who are transgender or even non-conforming as far as gender, is higher. Is much higher. So what does that mean? What is that telling us? That's telling us that they don't feel like they belong.

They don't feel like they fit in.

They don't feel like they fit in.

It's probably like 20 years ago with the gay community was probably higher. suicide rates then, I'm just making this up, but I'm assuming the suicide rates were much higher 20 years ago than they are today. This may be off. You probably know the statistics more than me because there's a space that's more welcoming today in general in society.

Right.

There's communities you can connect with and belong.

Exactly. And you know, I think what it comes down to is in a lot of the work that, you know, we were talking about that we do all this self-awareness work and all of this, you know, consciousness work, is what do we come, what do we figure out that we're inherently good, that we know who we are inside, that we have a voice that tells us what's right or wrong for us, that we have this sense of peace internally. So doesn't that seven-year-old too? Doesn't that 14-year-old and 18-year-old, and do we trust that, and we still guide them with, you know, the value system that maybe worked for us, or we still share with them the sports that we loved, or we still offer them everything we have, but it doesn't mean they can kind of take what works and let go of what doesn't.

Sure.

You know, and so this is really kind of a broader concept of don't we trust that our kids know who they are too? If that's what we learn about ourselves, and it takes us all this work and unwinding, but then we're like, oh wait, I can trust myself. Right. Who I am. is a good, decent person. My choices have been important and valuable. This is what we're learning. And kids know this bigger. They understand this in, especially when they're little, they kind of don't care what you think. That's a lot of time, and I mean that with a great deal of love and respect. They're like, this is what I want. This is who I am. and it's in our best interest to listen. It doesn't mean we don't have boundaries. It doesn't mean we don't have structure and possibly consequences for behavior. That is, you know, we don't throw out all of that. But there is a place where if we say to our kid, yeah, I trust, I know, you know, you're telling me who you are and I'm listening. I think that's what builds connection in families.

I hear you. And I also know that if I didn't have like great discipline and mentorship and tough love.

We need that too.

I probably would have made a lot of poor choices that might have affected the rest of my life. It's kind of having that balance, I think.

It is, and that's why it takes a village too. Because one thing that I think about as a parent, I'll just talk about myself personally, you know, take the social work piece out of it, is the way I think about my relationship with the girls is I want them to know that I have their back, that I'm there, that I'm listening, that I'm not there to judge, but I'm there to support and help. There's all, and in these words You know, it's sometimes easier in real time to know what that looks like. But there's a lot of other people in their life. There's a lot, they have coaches, they have teachers, they have aunts and uncles and cousins that are also supporting, guiding them, holding them accountable. You know, I sometimes think about, you know, the amount of pressure that they feel, not just my girls, but everybody from peers. For them to have all that pressure at school and in whatever environment, and then to come home and have the exact same type of pressure.

And have no relief.

No relief. Nobody's saying, hey, let's just sit down and talk about this. Because the thing that I hear the most probably when I talk about what I mean when I talk, you know, Zen parenting, is people think it means permissive parenting. That you just sit there, you just let it be, let them do what they want. That's not it at all. Actually, when my kids were young, I was quite a strict parent. Meaning my expectations were very clear. I was, there were things that I expected them to do. There were boundaries that they knew couldn't be crossed. So, but that doesn't mean I can't hear their perspective on it. I remember, you know, when my 12-year-old came to me and said, I'm ready to see this rated R movie. And I was like, okay, tell me why. And she gave me all of this information. And I said, Yes, but not yet. Like, yes, I understand why you wanna see that, but not yet. But you can see it maybe next year or maybe we'll go together when it comes out. You know, it was again, different time. things were not Netflixed all the time.

She's watching whatever she wants all day.

Yeah, exactly. It's not like that. But so I guess my point is, is I still had a boundary and it was still, the answer was still no. But I could hear her viewpoint on it. And she may have walked away a little annoyed, but at least she knew. I was like, okay, that makes sense.

I'm hearing you.

I'm hearing you. I'm hearing you down right now. Absolutely. And she's not wrong. But then that's the place where, like you said, there were people around you that said, I hear you, I know what you want, but I also know that for your safety, not yet. Yes, but not yet. You know, I say that a lot.

Yes, but not yet.

Yeah, and how can I support, you know, the answer is no, but how can I support you in this?

Right, right. We're not gonna- How can we deal with that?

Absolutely. Where else, can we do something different? Can you get the book first? Can we, you know, I just, I think when we try and use fear or demanding or being the one who is, always the disciplinarian, we lose the opportunity to have a relationship with our kid. Because the thing is, is I now have a 19-year-old, 17-year-old, and 14-year-old. 19-year-old and 17-year-old are basically adults. I know they're not full-blown adults. I know they have a lot more to learn, but I'm having to relate to them more as peers. And if my whole way of being with them was domineering and overwriting and.

Telling them what to do, they may.

Not want to be coming home very much.

No, they wouldn't want to come back. Yeah. How important is it for the parent to re-parent themselves? 100%.

Over and over and over again.

Really?

Yeah, you know what you were saying about you're hoping that you don't have the wound anymore? I totally stole this from Oprah, so this is not mine, but she talked about you think you're through something and then it shows up in different pants.

Of course.

I mean, I love that. And it doesn't mean that it's like something festering or something you should have looked at in therapy. It just means that you're constantly reparenting yourself because it comes up again in a different way. I was so good when my kids were little about separating my life from theirs. When they were struggling with friends or whatever, I didn't have, I didn't go into it with them. I would always say to parents, you,'ve already been through middle school. Don't go through middle school again. Just show up for them and be there for them and be separate. But when they got to be about 16, 17, or 18, I really was like, huh, I felt like I was going through, I was having the same feelings they were having. And a lot of that, I tend to be very, as you know, many people are in this field work very, you know, empathic. I'm an empath. I feel what people are feeling. And, but it was really porous when they got older. And I had to work really hard to, you know, to make that separation again, to realize that it's not my job to go through it with them, which is very much my history. I thought everybody needed me to have all the emotional experiences with them. I thought I needed to save everybody. It sounds familiar with you. I thought that if my emotions were not present for people, everyone was gonna fail, which was never the truth and no one ever said it. I just thought that.

You felt that way though, yeah.

So it shows up again and again.

What was the biggest fear or wound that you had to overcome or heal since you've been a parent?

That I wouldn't be able to either have the right answer or help them with something significant. And I think it even goes deeper than that, if I'm gonna be honest, that it would somehow harm them or that they would get harmed on my watch.

Ooh.

Yeah, that's still a real one. I have two drivers now. That's not easy.

They drive, oh, that's tough.

Yeah, it's hard. And they get frustrated with me when I'm, you know, in the passenger seat and I'm doing this and-- Of course, watch this, watch that. And they're like, Mom, you drive-- I mean, my husband does not do that. I do, but I'm like, this is a very strange thing to have you be in charge of a vehicle. And they're wonderful drivers.

They did all the good things.

Right.

But in a moment of like, well, let me check my phone for a second. You just never know if you're not aware.

You never know. So you gotta be paying attention as a driver. Yeah. I think as a parent, one of our biggest fears is loss. and having them be harmed by someone else, by us unintentionally, or by something we didn't look out for. It's the world.

Oh my gosh. How important is it in Zen parenting with the person you choose to have kids with? How important is it to be in alignment with that person? And really, what conversations should you be having before you have kids to create a zen family?

I would say it's hugely important because you're going to be forever connected. So I obviously have a lot of friends now who are divorced and they.

Are- How many friends would you say have been divorced since the last 20 years ago that you knew that- 50-50. 50-50. and how many of those parents who are still married are happy in their marriage?

I would say, this is a weird, two out of five?

Two out of five are still happy. So 20% of that 50%.

And I'm using like people that I'm thinking of specifically. That's not like a real statistic. Sure, sure, sure.

But just of your circle of your experiences of things you see things you hear, you work with a lot of people. 50% have divorced and then 20% of the people still together are happy.

Are seemingly happy. There are those other couples that, you know, those parents I'm thinking of, they have opportunities where they're, you know, they're choosing treatment together or therapy, but they, I can't say that they're happy.

Conflict or they're just not, they're just sticking it out.

They're just sticking it out. There's a lot of, when If the kids leave, it'll be better. Oh yeah, yeah.

So it sounds like the person you choose to marry and have kids with is hugely important.

It is, and you're gonna change so much after you have kids. So I think in answering your question, if I was to sum it up, you have to be, the hope is that you're with someone who is willing to talk about these challenges, be vulnerable enough to say, I'm not doing this well. I need support here. And also say, you are doing this well. Maybe you can help me or you can take that on. Just the simple thing of the driving. I was able to say, I like to be good at everything. I want to be like... That's right. But I said to my husband, Please be their driving person. Because I'm not helping them. And I will do my best to calm that inner anxiety that I'm having. But I kind of feel like I don't want to do that on the fly with them. Can you be that person? And that sounds like a very simple thing, but to be vulnerable enough to ask that, you know, and it can be much bigger than that too. Like, you know, will you come with me? Will you help me? I'm still struggling with this. Or I think the thing that I would give my husband a lot of props for is he, if I see something that's going on with the girls where he's responding in a certain way, I don't say anything in that moment to create an art, you know, where it's like, I'm pitting myself against him. But later I may say, when you said that to her, it sounded as if you were judging her. And he's very good at saying, really? He's not angry with me for pointing that out. And it's easy for me to say, I'm not sure I'm right about that. You're also not making him wrong.

Not at all.

Not judging him.

Not at all. You're just saying, hey, I noticed you said this thing and I just wanted to be aware of it.

It could sound like you're judging him.

It could. And that's what it sounded like to me. Which is more receptive to hear something like that from the partner's point of view, probably, as opposed to you were such an a**hole just then. You treated her like crap. You said this and look what you did. That's not gonna go anywhere. It's not gonna work.

That's not Zen relationship. It isn't. And especially if that's done in front of the kids. Oh my gosh. Then they know who to go to for whatever it may be. Exactly. But that's the part of that. The reason he can hear me is that when he comes to me and says, Hey, I don't think you're paying attention to this. This is, or are you sure this is right? I also say, I don't know. Let's talk that, like, I'm willing to hear where he's not sure my choices are correct either. So there's a willingness to do this, and I literally, it's doing it together. You know, it's being, it's holding each other accountable, but not in a competitive way. Sure. There's a lot of competitive parents out there.

Why are parents so competitive and not collaborative?

We've been taught to be competitive, don't you think? Isn't school competitive? Aren't sports competitive? you know, our workplaces can be competitive and we think that's the way we demonstrate our worth. So sometimes even in our partnership, we want to be, we want to win to show we're the most valuable. And I'm saying it very bluntly, I don't think anyone's literally thinking that as they're doing it, but there's a sense of, I want to be considered good and so let me show you how you're not or you're not good at this.

Let me show you how I'm better than that.

I'm better than that. Even if you're not bad. Let me show you that I can do this.

Better. What happens to a marriage or to a family when the parents are in competition with each other as opposed to collaboration?

The kids don't know which way they're supposed to go. The value system that maybe you're trying to impose has gotten muddled for them where they're not, maybe they'll show up one way for one parent and one way for the other parent. I think probably the worst thing, the most general thing I could say is that they will not go to the parents anymore. They don't want to create more conflict between the parents. This is the other thing about kids. They want their parents to be happy.

100%.

100%. Maybe even if the parents aren't married, like even if it's a divorce situation, they want them to be happy because if their parents are okay, they don't have to take care of their parents. They can actually show up to their parents, maybe with their own issues or problems, but if they feel like their parents are struggling constantly, that creates a load on them. So competition within the marriage or the parenting situation is hard for them.

What happens to a child when they grow up and there's consistent stress between the parents and there's a consistent conflict, whether it's a low level passive aggressive energy, whether it's just a lack of affection and real connection, what happens to a child when that is occurring in the parents?

Well, you probably know a lot about how the body keeps the score, yeah? So there's a lot of things going on inside of them where they just have certain feelings or fears, because you have to think about a childhood fear. When your parents are in conflict, there's a lot of things that may come up for you, that your family will be unstable, that you'll have to move, that you'll have to choose between parents. Even if you don't understand it completely, you know there's something unsafe. you know there's something uncomfortable. So if you grow up in an environment where it's always contentious or where you're not sure who you can depend on, you kind of carry that with you. And I don't, it shows up differently for all people, so it's not one way. But there's this internal anxiety about not having a foundational sense of trust with people where you may read something as, you know, Someone may change their mind about something and it reminds it, cellularly, reminds you of something from your childhood where you felt that you couldn't, it wasn't foundationally sound.

Yeah. I know that feeling. Yeah. It's challenging.

It is.

It's challenging. All you want is for your parents to be happy.

That's all you want.

And peace.

Because then you can be.

Exactly.

And this is what's so interesting is, you know, talking about parenting is we think that it's all about that they're thinking all about themselves. There's a lot of parents who talk about my kid is selfish, my kid is manipulating me, and they can give me examples. I'm not saying they're not experiencing what they are, but there's a lot of like my kid is doing this to me and really that kid is often feeling the exact same way about I can't be content because my parent can't get their act together or I can't trust what my parent is saying to me. And again, this is so hard to talk about because parents are always going to make mistakes.

Sure, they're not perfect.

We're not going to get it right every time. We are going to say something that's unsettling. We may miss a performance. We may forget to pick them up once or twice. And there's even more extreme things where sometimes divorce needs to occur, where that can be so discombobulating to a kid. But this is the way that we're going to teach you about what relational health is, is we're not supposed to be together anymore. That can happen. But I think it's, you know, one of my teens just told me this recently. It's not about what happened. It's about taking ownership of it. Can the parent actually take accountability for it and say, Yes, what happened was difficult. I played a role in it. Here's the piece that I'm taking, you know, accountability for, taking responsibility for, so the kid doesn't feel like they have to carry it by themselves.

All the blame.

You got it.

So how important is it for parents to take ownership and apologize to their children?

I think I've been talking about apologizing to children forever, not as a way to get, it's not about having children like you, it's about the truth. If you made a mistake, if you did miss something, if you were late, if you said something that was hurtful, isn't that what we do as human beings? We apologize. So why is it any different with your kid? And you know, something, a story I used to tell all the time because it was so, it happened so often, is, you know, maybe one day I wake up with my kids and they spill orange juice. And I'm like, oh, you know, that's no big deal. Let's clean it up together. It's no big deal. It's fine. The next morning we wake up and I've got an appointment and I have somewhere I need to be and they need to get to school at a certain time and they spill orange juice.

And I yell at them.

And I'm like, you guys need to get your act together. We're not using this cup anymore.

We're just doing water.

It's so clumsy. Yeah. Right. changed. It wasn't them. It was my experience that changed. So in that situation later that night, I'm sorry, this morning, that wasn't about you. I was late. I was feeling pressured. So I got all upset and angry, and I'm sorry about that. All you're doing is removing the feeling that they did something that because they didn't, that was our emotions. And another check, emotions are fine too. I was upset this morning. I still get upset. So I'm apologizing for maybe my behavior, but not that I got upset, 'cause that's what human beings do too. It's very layered, Louis, as you can see.

I'm curious, Kathy, if for whatever reason I wanna go back to the circle you know of people who've been divorced.

Yes, please.

And 'cause it's just curious to me. How many of those people, again, just ballpark, have gotten remarried? and had a second wave of children that have made it, that are not divorced, and have made it and are happy in that second marriage with a second wave. Do you know any of those people?

Yeah, absolutely. Most of them are men.

Okay.

Who had children again. I don't have, I have actually two women that I know who had children because they got divorced early. So with their new partner, they decided to have another child. But most of the time, because typically, again, we're speaking in general, in general speaking, that divorces happen more when your kids are getting older, maybe around 40. And so a lot of times, they're not having kids anymore. So, but a lot of men tend to, if they get remarried, have another child.

And I'm curious. this, is having another child tend to make the relationship work better or is it still, is it just dependent if they've healed certain things and taken responsibility and then gotten a more conscious relationship, then it works? What have you seen?

I would say that the choice to have another child, you, there's no bad or good. Again, we're living in the gray here, but it is definitely going to take you down a different path. Can you navigate that path, which is we are now going to, it's not just going to be about us in this new marriage.

That is new. Yeah.

We are a blended family, because that's another thing when you were bringing children from one family and another family, paying attention to those kids and how they are blending. But if you're bringing yet another child in, which can be lovely and beautiful. But as the new parents, you are now being, you are navigating a new relationship and you are raising a child. Many people can do that. Again, if we go back to what we were saying about if they are willing to talk about it, if they're honest with each other, if they can be vulnerable, if they can have self-compassion, everything is doable. But do I think overall having a child will make them more connected? Not necessarily. I think that they may stay together because they have that child, but there is no, You know, as we know, there is no perfect way to do there. There's no absolutes.

Sure.

Yeah.

Of course. It seems like mental health, emotional health, and also physical health is a big challenge for kids these days. Obesity, the percentage of obesity in children is greater than ever. I think it's a third of kids are now obese. The the mental stress, the emotional stresses that children are facing. Where is a majority of these things coming from? From a sickness in mental health, emotional health and physical health. Is it from parenting? Is it from society? Is it from social media? Is it from a lack of discipline? Is it from this is just how it always is and it's coming out in different ways in what are you seeing?

It's all of the above. I would never say it's just parents because there's no way. I mean, kids are being affected by so many things beyond their parents. Their parents can be their greatest influence, but you could do everything, you know, you could do everything we're talking about now. Have a relationship, be connected, value your child, listen to them, and they could be affected by the outside world in a way you could have never predicted.

They could still be struggling.

Giggling into it. You got it. And you know, to add to the physical, because you're talking about obesity, eating disorders are off the charts. Sure. And it's not just girls. I think it's the statistic, it's not 50/50, but it's a lot of boys and men too.

It's so interesting to see the dynamics. When I was younger growing up, I wanted to get bigger and stronger. That was like the idea of like, okay, if I could just put on some muscle, you know, then I'll get the girl or then I'll be accepted or I'll be cool. And now I'm seeing like these teenage boys being skinnier and skinnier based on, I think, a lot of stuff you see in music and movies and culture as the kind of style for these younger boys or younger men to be extremely skinny as a sexual turn on maybe for younger women. And so now I'm seeing them like, gosh, all these guys are so tiny, you know? It's like, and they like that, I guess. And they want to stay skinny, whereas I just want to put on muscle and I couldn't. I was too skinny.

Yeah. Or what I'm finding is there's a lot of boys who are still trying to be very muscular, but that's not what their body type is going to allow them to do. Meaning that then boys, they're still trying to lift weights a lot, but not all body types are going to end up looking the same. And so then they're trying to focus on controlling something. So it could be something like calories or I'm not going to eat as much. And when you look at pictures, you know, when you look at pictures of boys and men, there is an unrealistic standard, especially with the stomach.

And the shredded six-pack.

It's so hard. It's so, and not everybody can look like that. You know, a lot of, especially in the world of, you know, talking about physical health, a lot of us are like, if we work really hard, we'll be like this. Not every body type. Right. But kids don't know this. I mean, if there's anything when it comes to social media that we could focus on is talking to them about that this is not true for everybody, that this is not real. It's the same with porn. That's another thing. This is a fantasy, a male fantasy. This is not, you know, this is not what sex is. This is not what women really look like. Exactly. Exactly. So these conversations, like again, this goes back to why it's so important to have a relationship with your kid where instead of being afraid of you or not trusting you, they actually look to you because they know that you have their back. So they're like hearing all these things from their peers and they're like, well, it's not that they're gonna say, they're going to listen to their peers, but you still have an impact rather than them being like, I disregard what you say.

What do you think is the bigger challenge, the mental health the emotional health or the physical health for kids?

Well, they're all combined, but I would say their mental and emotional health is really, really challenged right now. This time, I haven't seen anything like it. I've been a therapist since I was 27.

So, like five years or so.

Exactly, just a couple of years ago. But I have never seen anything like it. And I don't say that to be scary. I just, you know what the Part of the definition of Zen is looking at reality. What's reality? Everybody thinks Zen means to be chill. It doesn't. It's pay attention to what's happening. Everything changes, everything is connected, pay attention. That's what Zen is. It's actually rather difficult, right? Because we don't want to pay attention. But the truth is, is that children are struggling with their mental wellness, and your question before is, what's causing it? a lot of different things, but I feel like what is the antidote or what can help? Relationships. With parents or with... Yeah, definitely with parents. I think that's A number one because they were the ones who are, again, most influential in their lives.

Guides.

Absolutely. Having other people they know they can depend on. Like when my girls turned 13, I had a party for them. It was called, we called it their 13-year-old party, where I invited over a bunch of women in my life. and women they know. Yeah, that's cool. That is so cool. And they sat around and read my girls' letters and talked about things that they had done at 13, things that they wish they would have known. And then they said, Just so you know, if you can't go to your mom for something, you can come to me.

That's pretty cool.

Right, and I had my niece who was 16 who was there. So something I've told my girls that they have 100% permission to do is if you can't come to me, Here's all these people you can go to.

Go to anyone else here.

Exactly. 'Cause then that helps with the sense of belonging. That helps with the sense of I'm valuable and important. That helps with them not feeling loneliness is another epidemic, more with boys and men.

But- why is loneliness more with boys and men than it is with women?

Because you guys don't have the emotional language to share how you're feeling. You guys don't have the permission to be vulnerable.

The acceptance.

The acceptance. When you do have the ability like you do to be vulnerable and you have people around you who you can be vulnerable with, but that's not always reciprocated by other men. And so, you know, the conversation can stop really quickly. You guys don't have the social, it's not a social norm. It's becoming more of one. It's changing. My husband runs a men's group. It's great. And the reason he started it, was because I would go out with my girlfriends for like 30 minutes and come home and be like, and here's what's going on. And you know, she told me this and she's having great success here. And he would spend a weekend with his guy friends and come home and not know a thing. I'd say, how are they doing? How's the kid? I don't know.

Yeah, we just went to the bar, played sports, or whatever. Yeah, watched the game.

Absolutely. He got, he had no information and he felt empty with that. So he wanted to create relationships with men where they could connect. So, you know, this, it is, it's, it's an epidemic, but we are, even this discussion and letting men know they're not alone in being lonely. Like, I think men think they're the only ones. So that's why I'm not gonna speak about it. And, you know, same, same with boys.

When I did my last book, the Masking Masculinity, I was on a tour. and a few hundred people would come to each event, right? And it was typically around 50% men, 50% women. And I would ask the audience, I would say for all the women in the room, raise your hand if at least once a week you connect with a girlfriend or your mom or sister or a girlfriend and talk about your life, your insecurities, your vulnerabilities, your challenges in your relationships, your work, or your identity issues, or your body image issues. And just raise your hand if once a week you do this, ladies. And almost every woman in the room would raise their hand in every city around the country, right? And I go, Keep your hands up if you do this every day. Every day you're on the phone with someone, you have a tea with someone, a lunch, and you're talking about it even for 10 minutes. Pretty much most of them kept their hands up. Every day around the country, women are talking about their life. and opening up. And I go, okay, for the men in the room, raise your hand if you, once a month, get together with at least one guy friend and talk about your vulnerabilities, your insecurities, your body issues, your shame, your guilt, your relationship in a vulnerable way. And then maybe be like two or three guys out of like 150, 200. And go, are you guys part of like a monthly, like mandatory church group?

It's often in church, yeah.

You get this together and pretty much like, yes, They're kind of like laughing. And I go, Raise your hand, guys, if you do this once a year. And most of the guys would never raise their hand, right? And I go to the women in the room, what would it feel like if you only got to share once a month, or you only got to share once a year with someone how you felt? Or you never got to share, because most men never do. They keep these things to the grave how they're feeling. and the women are like, I couldn't survive. I'd kill myself.

We'd implode.

I'd kill myself. They'd be like, that's not possible. I'd go crazy. And I go, well, imagine what's happening to a lot of the men in your life who don't feel safe space. And I think the challenge is most. I hope, I'm hoping it's shifting, but a lot of the younger women say they want their men to be vulnerable, but they don't have the emotional ability to witness a vulnerable man. And then therefore they're like, I don't feel safe. I'm freaking out. If you're crying and you're broken down, I can't break down. And so don't do that again. You know, they're not available to like embrace a 21 year old, 30 year old, 40 year old man because they haven't worked on receiving, accepting that and seeing that as a healthy, conscious and really sexy thing.

Yeah.

You know, and I think if women can learn that with their male partners, it can be a lot more harmony in relationships, which would create more harmony in marriages, which will create more harmony in parenting.

Exactly. That is how it goes. It cycles. Gender norms, you know, I'm writing this book, so I did this section on gender norms, but the majority of it is about men and how the gender norms are hurting you. Absolutely. I mean, obviously I talk about misogyny and I talk about what we're dealing with in this culture. It's all real. Again, reality. We have to look at the truth. But men suffer a lot.

Men die more, men commit more suicides, men do more manual labor, men are more imprisoned than women, men have to take on wars and are dying in wars or taking on this physical and emotional pain. I'm not saying women aren't taking on their own pains. But there's reality that men don't live as long. Absolutely.

For certain reasons, you know. And I think some of men's pain is often what, and when I say what they do to women, what I mean is it's this cycle. Because they're not able to heal and.

Accept it and they can't express themselves. Exactly. And it's not okay, but that's where anger and reaction comes from. Imagine, like if I go back to the women in the room, I go, imagine you didn't get to talk about this all day. to a whole year, how you feel. I go crazy, I kill someone, I kill my, you know, it's like you hear these things. Well, why do you see guys shooting up the world, you know?

Exactly.

When they didn't have a space to have healthy conversation.

Yeah.

Not as saying it's okay or agreeing with the reactions of men or the actions, but there's a root behind that. And women got to start seeing men as vulnerable beings as well, and allow the space.

Yes.

And not look at it as a turn off in an unsafe environment. Because otherwise, the man will never want to be a turn off to a woman. We never want to create a moment of tears and be like, Suck it up. Stop crying. Why are you crying? Be a man. You see this on the Johnny Depp thing. Oh yeah. Or what's her name?

Amber Heard.

She's like, Don't be a little cry baby. Don't be a baby. Why are you crying?

Be a man.

Suck it up. No one will believe you. No one will I don't believe you. You're being a little baby. I didn't hit you that hard in the face. It was just like a little whatever. Quit being a baby. You're so weak. No man wants to hear that. So why would a man ever be vulnerable if the person they love is telling them they're weak when they're vulnerable? That's what's ruining a lot of relationships and it's hurting men. And I'm not saying like men are doing harmful things as well. They're like saying these things that are not healthy as well or conscious. I'm telling you, if men learn to heal, and if women create a space for men to heal, the world will heal. Absolutely.

Well, and it's like I'm talking to my husband. These are the conversations we have all the time. Because he is always representing the, he's very open to, he's raising three daughters. We talk about women's issues all the time.

Yeah, he's got to be vulnerable. He does. They've been listening and welcoming, and here.

I am here for you, and I got you. And he needs to hear our because everything you said is true. I agree with everything. And what women are often coming to the table with is, do you know our history and how we were hurt?

And if that-- We've been hurt for decades, centuries, and all these things.

And if you can hear us with that, and you believe us, and you're never gonna be able to be us. You're never gonna be able to stand in our shoes. But if you can say, I'm gonna listen to your story, and the fact that you live in that and still live in that-- Of course. that you see that as challenging. You know, challenging is not the right word. You see how our day-to-day experience is challenged. Then women have that. Because I feel like a lot of times we are fighting of, you know, who's struggling here? Who's suffering more? Who's suffering more.

It's crazy.

And we both are. And that's the key, is the vulnerability of being, we're using that word again and again on purpose, because all we're saying is the truth. Just tell the truth. And can you hold my truth in a sacred way?

And not shame me or make me wrong.

Not use it against me. And this is, and, you know, talking about sacred partnerships or partnerships that last, that's it. Right. Can I be all of myself, all of my emotions, my scared part, my competitive part, can I be all those things in front of you and with you? And do you accept that?

This is why I think understanding our minds and our emotions is one of the hardest things to understand. It's taken me a long time to get to a basic foundation of it, right?

Yes.

And I was telling you before that, you know, I've created multiple relationships in my life and I made a decision. I was like, the next relationship I get into, it's going to start with a coach, a therapist, a mentor, creating exercises for us, having emotional accountability and allowing us to continue to heal individually within the relationship so we can hopefully thrive in a harmonious environment. Yes. And it's been a beautiful journey to be in therapy every two weeks in a new relationship and also do it individually and then also do it together because the emotions and the mind can always play tricks on us.

They sure can.

And could rule our lives if we allow it. I remember growing up feeling crippled by my emotions for weeks, sitting in the fetal position in my college dorm room because my ex-girlfriend didn't want to get back with me or something. Whatever, like the emotions were so strong that made me immobile. And I didn't know how to navigate or process in a healthy way. And I think if we learn the art of emotional regulation, Integrate the healing process, it's just going to make us better humans individually or in relationship or in parenting. -Exactly.

And I'm sure, have you read Susan David's book about emotional agility?

-She'S great.

I've had her on. She's amazing. -So, that language, agility? -It's incredible. -I know because I've always talked about emotional regulation. And it means something similar, but agility, the ability to move in and out, I get such a visual when she talks about that. the ability to be in this space and that it's okay to be in this space, but then the ability to come out of it in a different situation or to realize you can come out of it. And you don't feel ashamed for being in it in the first place. And I feel like therapy with couples is what you're, and again, I kind of always see things as pictures. What you're doing is you're creating space around your relationship so you have room to grow and change. 'Cause one thing you're gonna do in a partnership is you're gonna grow and change. One person might grow grow and change a little earlier or differently or faster. It's not a competition. Nobody's getting ahead of each other. But can you allow your partner to become all of themselves in your presence if maybe you're still in a different, more idling place? And are you supportive of that? Because you guys are going to change. And that, I think that's, you know, we were talking about divorce before. I think there's this unwillingness to allow a partner to grow and change or Let's call it what it is. I'm afraid. You don't do what we used to do. You're interested in different things. You would have never been friends with this person 10 years ago. And instead it's, I love you. And again, this is a big part of emotional agility and regulation. I'm afraid. It's uncomfortable. It's uncertain. But I trust you. Can we talk about it? Can I share with you how I'm feeling? And can you hold it? It's just very, and that's constant and ongoing. And that's a big part of parenting too, with our kid. They're growing and changing and it's scary. You know, parents will say to me, you know, their 14-year-old kid, they'll say, well, they used to want to go fishing with me when they were 10 and they don't want to go fishing. Like, they're not 10. Right. And what they want to do now is so different and can you allow them to grow and change? They'll come and go. They need you, but not in the same way that they did when they were fishing with you. So it's part, The thing about this that's nice, and you do these conversations all the time, you know all this, it's all the same universal principles with ourselves, with our partners, with our friends, with our kids. So we don't have to be different. We don't have to learn a new set of rules. We just do the same things. Doesn't mean it's easy. I mean, it's difficult, but.

What is something you wish you knew before you became a parent that you know now? If you go back and tell yourself a couple of pieces of advice before you had your first kid, what would that be?

The same thing that it's the same answer that your first question, to be more compassionate with myself. I have been someone who's wanted to achieve and succeed and be good at things. And I've always had, you know, there's ego in it, some of it healthy, some of it not. And that I felt that it should look a certain way and feel a certain way. And if I can do this or that, this will never happen. And that's just not what it's like to raise human beings. With human beings, there's more surrendering, there's more forgiveness and grace and acceptance. And. And I loved all of that before, but it's so different when you feel like you're holding these people's lives in your. In your hands. You literally are when they're little. You know, you're feeding them, you're carrying them.

Yes.

And that it's not going to go perfectly and that. that's part of it. And can I practice my own sense of, you know, and self-compassion, you know, you know, it's not just a word, it's being present, it's treating yourself like a friend, it's realizing you're not alone. It really is a process. And I wish, because I spent a lot of years being hard on myself, is what I'm trying to say.

Yeah.

You know, and I still am sometimes, but I wish starting earlier, I wouldn't have been so racked. with, I should have done this or I went to bed frustrated about things that couldn't be changed, like why am I bored? See, I wouldn't have said that before. When my kids were little, I wouldn't have owned up to being bored because then I'm not a good mom, right? And I remember the cards that I got after my daughters were born and everyone's like, Isn't everything a blessing and aren't you so happy and isn't everything great?

You're kind of bored.

Yeah, I'm kind of bored and it's not. And I'm kind of in pain and I'm kind of alone and I kind of am not doing my career and I didn't feel we need a card that is more honest about isn't this challenging and you miss this and you miss that. But then the truth is everything that your sister said is true. You fall in love. You wouldn't have it any other way. But that's what relationships are. Sometimes they force us kind of out of our old boxes and we become someone completely different.

Man, it's so fascinating. Zen parenting, I'm excited about this. I hope people get a few copies of this. Send it to your parent friends who are messed up. Send it to your friends who have messed up kids, you know, all of them, or healthy relationships. Send it to people, Zen parenting, caring for ourselves and our children in an unpredictable world. And I think a lot of people forget to focus on their health their emotional, mental, spiritual, physical health first. Exactly. And they neglect themselves to be selfless for the child. But I think it's actually very selfish to do that. If you're not taking care of yourself at the highest level, you're not creating a symbol of what's possible. You're not creating a model of the way life should look. It shouldn't be, I'm sick, I'm emotional on the well, I'm exhausted, I'm drained, I'm mentally unstable.

Right.

Because I'm a parent and I have this child, it should be, I've got to figure out in a messy way how to make it work so that I'm taking care of myself in this journey as well.

Exactly. I always tell parents, children don't learn by listening to your words. They learn by watching how you live.

Everything, they observe it.

Everything, you are role modeling everything and that means that you can get sad because show your kids what sadness looks like and what tools you use to get through it. You can go, you can grieve. My dad died five years ago. I had a long grieving experience. I still get sad sometimes. I thought about him on my way here, or he would have loved this. And that's okay. I talk about that. I have tears. They watch it. They know it's okay. And so it's not about show them how to be happy all the time. It's show them how to be a human being. That's the goal.

That's beautiful. You've got this book. I want people to get the book. You've got zenparentingradio.com/book. ZnParenting on Twitter, Instagram, ZnParenting Radio, and all the places online. How else can we be of support for you?

I would say the best place to find me is on the podcast. So my husband and I do a podcast together called ZnParenting Radio. We have been in the business as long as you, about a decade. Longer than me. Yeah, one year longer than you. And we have these conversations that you and I are having every single week. Sometimes we have unthought, you know, thought leaders and experts, but most of the time it is he's a much more pragmatic, logical thinker. I am a much more, you know, spiritual, emotional mom. And how do we do this in harmony? And we do. I think the feedback we get the most about Zen Parenting Radio is I hear you guys struggling with things, but there isn't, there's still kindness, there's still listening, we don't, compassion. A lot of people who listen are college students and couples therapists, you know, recommend it to people. That's cool. So it really isn't about, we always say it's not really about parenting, even though it is, it's really about how to interact with other human beings. That's cool. So that's probably our biggest place.

That's cool. Zen Parenting Radio podcast. This question I asked everyone at the end is called the Three Truths. Yes. So imagine it's your last day on Earth, many years away, hypothetical scenario. you get to live as long as you want, but eventually you gotta turn the lights off and go somewhere else. And you get to accomplish and create and be anything you want to be for the rest of your life. But for whatever reason, you got to take all of your work content with you. Everything you've ever said is gone, right? But you have three things you could share with the world. Three lessons you would leave behind or three truths. What would you say are those for you?

Number one definitely would be self-awareness is essential. The practice of self-awareness, I don't think I've used two words more in my lifetime than self-awareness is the first step toward everything else. Number two would be grace for yourself and also noticing it in the world, noticing that there's grace everywhere, that even in the most painful times there's always something beautiful. even in the most painful times. And I would say the last one would be humor. Things are funny. I have gotten through life, you know, just talking about our podcast again. The way Todd and I get through challenges, the way that I get through challenges with my kids, we have some good laughs about it. You can bring humor to everything, not at someone's expense, but just about things are nutty. Let's just call it have fun. Have fun.

Humor is healing.

It sure is. It is for me.

That's beautiful. Well, Kathy, I want to acknowledge you for your mission and your work and your realness about talking about the, you know, what was true for you about motherhood and losing an identity or shifting an identity, let's say, and then also for how real you are now with your kids being older and being willing to talk about these things so openly, consistently, and teach. It's really inspiring because a lot of people are suffering. A lot of people are going through challenges. And I think there's more parents than ever are suffering in silence. Without the tools, without the training, without the opportunities for healing and growth. So I'm really grateful for your message and your mission and for your way of being in the world. It's really inspiring.

That's lovely. Thank you for that. I appreciate that. And right back at you.

I appreciate it. My final question, what's your definition of greatness?

My definition of greatness is alignment. I love the word integrity. You know, integrity meaning that the way I'm feeling on the inside is the way I'm showing up on the outside. And if we can go through life with a sense of alignment and integrity, everything feels good. You know, everything, you know, someone we talk to on the street, our work, being with our children, we feel like ourselves. I don't think there's anything more important than feeling like yourself. That's where joy comes from for me.

Yeah, there you go. Thanks so much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Amazing. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.