The Keys To A Healthy Relationship & How To Deal With Conflict w/Erwin McManus EP 1166

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When the night could go either way between nice evening and legendary. Served in eight perfect stoneware bowls to the sounds of circa 1950 bossa nova. Seconds, a good debate, and an impromptu round of never have I ever follow. It's gonna be a late one. The Essential Evening Extender made possible with Vitamix. This is episode number 1166 with Erwin McManus, part two. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Today's guest is Erwin McManus. He's back for part two. He's a best-selling author, entrepreneur, fashion designer, filmmaker, and founder of Mosaic, which is a church movement based in the heart of Hollywood with a community that spans the globe. And he has committed his life to the study of genius and the pursuit of God, never knowing that the two worlds would one day collide. we got a new book called the Genius of Jesus: the Man who Changed Everything. And this is the second part of our conversation that I had with Erwin, and I wanted to dive into his philosophy about the spiritual side of relationships. And we dug in deep. We talked about Erwin's philosophy around love and how to find the right partner, how to support your partner without controlling them, how to deal with conflict in a relationship, and the keys to a healthy relationship. And he shares some things that maybe you wouldn't think a pastor might share about sex, love and relationships along with spirituality. So I hope you enjoy this. And if you do enjoy this, make sure to share this with a friend, post it over on social media. You can always tag me, Lewis Howes and Irwin McManus as well. And I want to give a shout out to the fan of the week by Ziti, who said, I cannot say enough great things about the school of greatness. I started listening because of a couple Tick Tock clips that I saw, and now I am obsessed. And it's a part of my morning ritual, and I get up and listen to this podcast. It's now my number one because it's so diverse. Other podcasts can get kind of redundant after a while, but this one has a variety of different topics and great guests. So ZD, so glad that you follow us over on TikTok as well and that you're getting a lot of value from the School of Greatness on a daily basis. And again, guys, if this is your first time here, please subscribe right now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and stay up to date because every week we have incredible guests and topics just like this one. Okay, in just a moment, the one and only Erwin McManus. We were talking about this off camera about you've been married 38 years, right? 38 years. So I feel like you've got a lot of wisdom from your years of experience being married, and you've also supported people throughout relationships, you know, pre-marriage stuff, being married through divorces, getting remarried again. I'm sure you've seen it all for the last 38, 40 years. And it seems to me, again, maybe just because I live in LA, I see the extremes of it. And maybe if I was hanging out back in Ohio more, I wouldn't see more like healthy relationships. But it seems to me like in general, a lot of people have gone through breakups, adversity, a loss of faith or hope in their relationships in the last year and a half, two years. And with the availability of seeing something shinier, brighter, better looking, more attractive, or seeming better at a swipe constantly, whether it be on social media or dating apps, and seeing a flawed person in front of you every day that maybe you're not connected with as much or not putting the work in as much, it just seems like there's a lot of struggle and people are wanting to find love and intimacy more than ever. But they're not willing to do what it takes to sustain it and to build it and co-create it with someone in a conscious, healthy way. How do you think we can get out of that space and tap back into the genius of love and tap into the genius of intimacy and how can we really co-create this? So I'm just trying to set this up because I want to talk about this for a little bit, but what's your, philosophy around relationships in general. And because you were mentioning before that really, I think 80% of it is finding the right match.

Yeah.

And making sure that you can find the right match first. So how do we know we found the right match? Like, what are some questions we can ask ourselves or our potential partner to see, are they the right potential match for me?

Sure. Here's a couple of things that may maybe will be different than what you'll read everywhere. One thing is don't look for someone who makes you happy. Look for someone that you naturally make happy. Because if the other person isn't happy as an outcome of your presence in their life, you're never gonna make them happy.

Right. So your authenticity makes them happy. You being more of you makes them happy. Brings them more joy.

Yeah, because it's not a struggle. Yeah, when you're gonna be married for a long, long time and and you're going, I just can't make you happy. You're at a dead end. Because you realize, because you actually aren't in control of someone else's happiness. Like they're in charge of their own happiness. So I'm not saying that you're responsible for the happiness. What I'm saying is that person naturally moves toward happiness because of your presence. The natural you adds to their happiness. Does that make sense?

That makes a lot of sense. Why do we try to force it? Try to be something we're not to make someone happy?

Right, because if you're having to work really hard to make them happy, it's not going to last. It's not, because you're going to get exhausted.

Exhausted.

And you can't make an unhappy person happy. And so fortunately, in 38 years, I realized when I'm my best self, my wife actually is happy. And she likes me. She enjoys me and we laugh and have a good time together. And that's, so some of, and it's not just that she makes me happy. and she does. But if you base it on that, you're going to be using people. And so when you're going, oh, you know, I'm looking for someone who makes me happy, you're going to be a user. And, and that's dangerous because that person can't sustain your happiness. Sustain your happiness either. So the first thing I'd say is just find someone who just. You're, you're, the real you makes them happy.

Yes.

And, and then. And I think relationships are hard work, but I want to use the word, that part of it is effortless.

Yeah.

That makes sense? And the second thing I would say, and this is really important in the context even of LA, is you need to find someone who wants you to be the best version of yourself. You don't want someone who wants you to be a lesser version of yourself. And this is back to your question of, can you really be a genius in your own hometown?

Yes.

And the answer is usually no.

Why?

Because people don't want your life to be an indictment on their life. So when everyone grows up with the same starting point. Right. And then you begin to emerge. You become a judgment on them even if you don't mean to.

Why? Because they're not living up to their potential.

That's right. Because anyone who is living up to their potential can celebrate you living up to your potential. Greatness can applaud greatness. Genius can applaud genius. And intention applauds intention. But when you elevate above everyone else in your peer group and they have chosen a life of mediocrity, they will feel that you've betrayed them.

Gosh, I felt there's so many different stages in my life. I felt like I had friends and then I didn't have them as friends.

Yeah, that's right.

And then I moved somewhere new and developed friends and then didn't have them as friends. Not because I wasn't trying to be their friend, but because I kept seeking and pursuing.

You were gonna be more.

Yes, I was like, okay, I was asking the questions. I was diving into more learning. I was developing myself.

The most stark a reminder that in my life was my wife and I had this couple that were friends. And he was a Harvard grad, she was a Duke grad. So they were like brilliant. And he played football, I think it was. And, you know, and one day we just didn't see him anymore. And then a year later they were at our house and we sat down with them. We thought we were good enough friends to have an honest conversation. So I said, hey, it seems like you guys just withdrew. And what did we do to like end the friendship? And they said, being around you puts too much pressure on us to be more. Oh. And I said, did I say something or was it... No, it wasn't anything you said. It's just the way you choose to live your life makes us feel that we are obligated to be more. And I remember saying to them, I can live with that.

Mm-.

And, you know, because for years my wife said, you know, we don't have friends that have stayed with us all the years along the way. And it's because you have to decide as you go along the way, are you going to allow your friendships to determine your ceiling, or will you invite people to go with you? So I tried, I mean, I cannot tell you how many friends I've gone to and I said, Hey, I'm starting this business, just come. I'm doing this, just come. And I created jobs for them.

Opportunities.

And they all said, no. And I realized, oh, it's hard for me because I am a very driven person. And I realized, oh, they're happy with their life as it is. And so then I have to celebrate that. But I also realize that we're just moving into different dimensions of living. And so I have great friends now. All my friends right now, the really close ones, they're way more successful than me.

They're inspiring you to grow. Yeah, yeah.

And I realize, oh, not a single one of them is intimidated by me. If anything, they're looking at me going, He's such an underachiever. And it does elevate me. When I'm in the room with them and I go, Wow, they have courage. They have incredible inventiveness. They took some great risks. It really challenges me. And actually, I want to be in that room. See, I don't walk away from that room. I go, I want to be around people where I am the least successful, least impactful person in the room, and I want to be pulled up by that environment. And you should always pull people up, but you can't force them up. Yeah, you know, and so that's a part of that. And back to the dating thing.

Yes.

I've seen a lot of relationships where women hit a ceiling because the man does not want them to be their best version of themselves.

The man doesn't want the woman to be that. Wow.

And because they want that woman to be there for his benefit. But I also seem to reverse. I've seen men hit a ceiling because the woman they chose didn't want the best version of them.

Pulls them back or Yeah.

And I gotta say this, like my wife has always pushed me to be my best version of myself. In fact, one time this guy, she asked him why he wasn't more ambitious or, you know, more courageous. And because he kept talking like he would. And so she just said, you know, what's holding you back? I said, well, I'm married and I have kids. And I just, I can't take those kind of risks because, you know, I have to take care of my wife and kids. In front of him, my wife turned and looked at me. She goes, if you ever use me or the kids as an excuse for living a lesser life, I will leave you. -Wow.

-And she said this to you?

-Yes.

-Wow.

-In front of that guy. And she meant it. And she's always basically said, Look, I'm married to the best version of yourself. And you just keep pushing yourself to that. And that's exciting for me.

Yes.

You know, and we've had times. I mean, I remember 10 years ago when I started a fashion company and a film company and, and she didn't really understand what I was doing, you know, and we had a conversation in the coffee shop. And a year later, I had a company. It was a quickly multi-million dollar company. And she came, said, hey, are we gonna talk? I said, about what? She goes, it seemed like you've started this other life now. You're like this artist, the designer guy. And, you know, before you were just a pastor and you're a writer and Shouldn't we talk about this shift in your life? And I said, Honey, we did talk about that last year. Remember I said I was gonna be an artist for the next 20 years of my life? And she goes, that conversation doesn't count because I didn't think you could succeed. But, you know, once we sat down and this time when I came back and started another fashion company and I took all of our savings and used everything to start this new company in the middle of the pandemic, I said, honey, are you okay with me doing this? And she looked at me, she goes, I am. Because this is what you were born to do. And that's powerful. She just. I. I mean, being married to someone like that is such a gift. And. And I mean, I can tell you years ago, I lost, like, five to six million dollars in one day and lost a company due to a decision my business partner made. that I could not stop. And I ended up taking a million dollars worth of loans to finish all the projects they left undone. I had to fly home and tell my wife I lost everything. I sat down on Larchmont and I said, Honey, I need to tell you I lost everything. And my wife looked at me and said without a second hesitation, I thought I was your everything.

Oh, phew, that gave me chills.

Yeah, me too.

Wow.

And I thought, man, I'm not in a Jane Austen novel. What is happening here? And I didn't have as romantic a response. My response was, well, I lost my other everything. The one that pays the bills.

Yeah, exactly.

And she looked at me and goes, We've been poor before. And that didn't stop us.

Wow.

And she was just basically just get up off the ground and do what you do.

Go create, go make something happen.

And you want someone like that. You want someone who enjoys you when you're enjoying life and you want someone who always calls you to the best version of yourself and wants you to be that person.

What if you've already been married and you haven't asked those questions yet and you're realizing, oh, this person doesn't want me to go be the best version. They want me to be the version they want me to be that makes them safe and comfortable and you're already in that marriage. Maybe you have kids, maybe you don't. How do you Enroll or inspire your partner to be supportive of the greater version of you. The growing, expanding version of you.

You probably have an unspoken codependency of mediocrity.

Yes.

Both of you accepted a lesser version of each other. So if you wake up one day going, I want to be more, and I'm going to say this especially, I'm going to say this as a man. I don't want to sound chauvinistic or anything like that. But I'm gonna say this as a guy. If you're a man and you wake up one day and you go, I want to be a better, higher version of myself. Your first job is to help your wife be a higher version of herself.

How can a man do that?

By one, having meaningful conversations and listening to your wife's dreams. Listening to the dreams that she put on the back burner because she married you. Listening to the dreams that she thinks are no longer possible because she married you and had your kids. Listening to the dreams that are still haunting her that she wishes she could live. Because see, if you want to be free to move to a different level of you, your first commitment should be to help her become free to be the best version of her.

That's big.

Okay. That's big. I want to say to the guys.

Okay.

Yeah. You know, because it's so much easier. It sounds so right to go, My wife's holding me back. But if you've been married for 10 years and you've both been at that same level, it's an unspoken contract, a mediocrity.

It's both of you are involved.

Yeah. And so now you have this epiphany. You listen to Lewis Howes and he's inspired you to the School of Greatness. Now you want to be great. Well, you know what you should do? You should let your wife listen to the podcast and go, Hey, this talk really inspired me. And I would tell people, leaders make a mistake because they go through a long process of change and then when they change, they tell everyone they've changed now.

And it took them years and they want everyone else to do it with them.

I'm going, yeah, if you're the leader and it took you this long to get to that place, How long do you expect the people who've fallen you?

Probably twice as long.

Yeah, most likely. So if you've been married for five years, 10 years, 15 years, and you've been comfortable with mediocrity or the status quo, and then now you're like, I need more. I want to be more. Look, it took a process for you to be reawakened. So now you need to create an.

Environment where your spouse can be reawakened.

Mm-. And find a way to take this journey together. Yeah.

That's beautiful. How do you know when you've been dating someone for a while, what are some questions you should ask that could get real clarity if that is a potential partner that will support you in the crazy changes and growth you'll have over the next 10, 20, 50 years of potentially being together? What are some things you should ask?

I think you usually know right away if they're not the right person. You just lie to yourself because you don't want to be alone.

Wow. Okay. Yeah, that's good.

So I would say... Do we know intuitively?

Is it a feeling?

It's a gut feeling. It's an intuition. It's also a level of joy. And are they filling the loneliness void or are they accentuating the fully alive aspect of your life? Are you more fully alive with that person?

What if they're doing both for someone?

Oh, that's okay if they're feeling both.

As long as they're bringing the joy.

Yeah, bringing the joy. And they're making you feel fully alive. Oh, so here, so you know right away if they're not the person, you.

Just have to be honest with yourself.

But you may not know right away if they are the person. Yes, so how do you know when they are?

When you no longer need to change them. Wow, that's when you know that they.

Are the right person. Yeah, because if you're trying to change them, they're not the right person. Ooh.

So it's when you fully accept them.

You're like, I love all this about her. I just gotta change this one thing. Just this one thing. And so then you have to ask yourself the question, if that one thing never changes, 'cause it won't.

It won't change.

It won't change.

Even if you have potential to change it, it's not gonna change.

Because you're not their life coach.

Right.

You're their partner.

Don't coach them. Don't try to fix them.

That's right. The moment you become their coach, you can't be their partner. Ooh.

So how do we empower and uplift our partners to want them to accomplish their dreams and become more of who they are without coaching them? Right.

By paying attention to the areas of life they want to change and the areas of life they do not want to change. Let's say just a small thing. Let's say it drives you crazy that she's always late. Right. You know. and you say, can't you be on time? And you realize she doesn't really want to be on time. So you have to decide, can I love this person even though they're always going to be late? Which is different than a person that says, I really want to be punctual. I really want to be on time. I just have this terrible pattern in my life of being late all the time and I really need help to be on time. Those are two different scenarios. And then in the second scenario, if you become the one to help them be on time, they're gonna hate you. Because now you're a little life coach. You have to say, hey, I totally support you in that. You know, you, you know, maybe I can point you to some things that can help you. I'm not gonna help you change this. I'm gonna cheer you on as you change. Because I don't want you to feel like you're changing for me.

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You have to change for yourself. That's right. Does that make sense?

So cheering people on, not coaching them.

Yeah. Yeah, and you have to be able to say this sincerely, even if you never change, I'm gonna love you completely. Some people don't do that though.

They're with someone, they don't like things, and they keep wanting them to change the thing they don't like, and they expect them to change, but they're not gonna change. Yeah, in LA, you know what's funny is a lot of guys, they fall.

In love with models and actresses, but they don't wanna marry a model or an actress.

Right, right, right.

So they want to marry the model, they just want you to quit modeling once you're married. They wanna marry you as a model. an actress or an actor, but they want you to act because then you're like having that scene. Right.

You know, it makes them feel uncomfortable.

Yeah, yeah. And so I'm going, no, no. See, if you don't want to marry an actress, don't date an actress. Right. Right. Just like, you know, when guys are surgeons or doctors, like if you don't want to marry someone with doctor's hours and surgeons schedules, don't marry a doctor or a surgeon. Don't think, oh, if I marry him, then his priorities will change. They won't because he's structured to be a surgeon. And the only marriage that's going to work is someone who actually is structured to be married to that surgical pattern in their life. And so you look at those extremes, like, I, you know, when I was dating Kim, I was already traveling. I said, hey, I'm going to be traveling all the time. I'm going to be traveling the world. And my wife's like, that's okay, because so am I, you know? Right, right. We're just traveling different directions. My wife is a musical artist. She's married to a musical artist. And Jake is in the band, Laney, and, you know, they toured with John Mayer, Ellie Golding, you know, and they're about to do the troubadour, you know, and, and they travel all over the world.

Right, right.

And, you know, Moriah, when she married Jake, understood he's, he's one-third of Laney. He's gonna be traveling. She's also a musician. My daughter's my daughter. And, and she's in a band, and she travels the world, and they both understood that. Now they have a baby and they're working out. Neither one of them is looking to the other person saying, Now you need to change women. Stop doing your thing.

Yeah.

They both are like, We both have this thing that's important to us. It's a part of who we are. And we're going to learn how to be husband and wife and have a little girl in that dynamic scenario. And I think that, to me, is the ideal. You're not trying to change the other person. You knew who they were. You were willing to embrace that for a lifetime. And you also understand it's complicated.

Yes.

And you do your best to work it through. But my kids have learned that you can live in a really dynamic relationship and have a great marriage.

Absolutely.

And you can, but you can't change the person. I mean, there's things about me that I know Kim wants to change and they just don't change. I mean, you know, it's kind of late for me to change.

It's accepting the person.

There's things about Kim that I want her to change. She never changed. But I didn't expect them to change. I kind of hoped some of them would change, right?

Did anything change?

Oh yeah, we both changed a lot in all the areas where we fundamentally want to change.

Not the other person wanting you to change, because that doesn't work.

You can't sustain change that someone else wants for you. You can only sustain a change that you want for yourself. And that's why when you're marrying someone, you don't marry a perfect person, but you pay attention to who they're becoming.

Well, we just see there are the commandments in the Bible, but what would you say are the spiritual principles or commandments for a relationship. Maybe three to five that you would say these are pretty time and true tested from your relationship or the ones that you've seen who have been healthy and gone through ups and downs and sustained a happy type of relationship.

That's why you pick the Bible as your framework. Yeah, there were ten commandments that were given in the Old Testament. Jesus narrowed it down to love God and love people. And he said, look, if you love God and love people, you're going to take care of all the commandments. Right. You know, and I would say that in a relationship, the first thing is you have to take personal responsibility for your own happiness. That's so true. And so don't blame it on your wife, don't blame your kids, don't blame your marriage, don't blame your job. You are personally responsible for your own happiness. Because it's miserable being married to someone who's unhappy.

It's really, it's draining, right?

Yeah, it's exhausting, you know, to be in a relationship of any kind. with someone who's perpetually unhappy.

Because you're always trying to support them and being happy as opposed to pursuing your unique genius and your dreams and your creativity.

So you're personally responsible for your happiness.

Yes.

And then secondly, when you're in a relationship, you should care and align your life for your partner's personal happiness. you're not responsible for their happiness, but you should be the greatest ingredient that allows them to move in that direction. That makes sense?

That makes a lot of sense.

Your partner shouldn't feel that they need to go against you to live out the intention that gives them the greatest sense of joy.

Oh, yeah. It seems like some people try to hide the things they love sometimes or try to sneak away to do something they love because the other person doesn't like it. And that's tough, right?

Yeah. And like, when I first started writing books, I was a madman. I mean, you know, I got so hard into my head and my family says I was not an enjoyable human being. And human interaction irritated me when I was writing. Get away from me. I wrecked the car when I was driving. Oh man. Like, I'm so in my head. I was in a carpool lane by myself because I was having a conversation with three other people while I was writing my book. Because I worked through, I write the entire book in my head. And so one of my books I wrote in 10 hours because I wrote the whole thing in my imagination and then I just punched it out so fast. But I'm completely oblivious to the world around me and maybe mean. And so my family was like, Dad, you know, could you, when you write, could you just sort of be alone? You know, because we're a little nervous for you. Don't drive. We'll send you food.

Get your driver. Yeah, yeah.

You know. And just talk to us minimally during the process. And I love that space. And my wife would try to like help me by bringing me food. And I would go, why are you interrupting me? Why are you in the room? But I cooked this for you. And I go, Did I ask you to come? Yeah. And over time, I had to learn how to be more gracious and kind each time I wrote a book. But my family also learned how to give me that space to create that's necessary for me to go through that process. And I actually think the best relationships, they can talk to you. They were so honest with me and go, Hey, I don't know if you realize this, but you're short, you're temperate, and you're too quick to get irritated and completely unaware of it. I just knew they irritated me. I could only see from my inside experience. And then I realized, oh, I see what's going on. So I made adjustments and they made adjustments. They want me to succeed in the writing. They want me to write the best book I can. At the same time, I want to create a healthy, happy environment all around me. and sometimes they feel like they're mutually exclusive, right? You being you and creating what you need and everyone else being happy, they can almost be at war with each other. And yet you realize, no, you know, every human being has like a dark side to their life, you know? And a part of loving someone is just realizing, like, I would always grow a beard when I wrote. It was like, it was my way of warning everyone.

Right, right. Stay away.

And they were just, oh, he's about to write a book. you know, and I think I had, I found ways to externally communicate. I love you, but right now I'm going into my hole, you know? And, and I watch this with Kim when she's, like, teaching a master's course or she's building something in, in Asia. I just know I'm not going to see my wife. Like, yeah, she's on phone calls at 10 o'clock at night because it's the right time in Africa for two hours, and, and she's focus on it. She's pretending she's talking to me, but she's in her brain working out this project. I could get so irritated. And there have been times I go, Hey, is that all you're gonna do? Because I'm not celebrating that. But I realized for her to achieve this, I have to accept the fact that these things are gonna change in our relationship during this time. And I think a huge part of relationships is adaptability and pliability. And I say, Look, the more mature person makes the most changes. But somebody has to make changes. Someone has to choose adaptability. And if you have two rigid people in a marriage, it won't work. You always have to have one person who's just more like water.

And if both are flexible, is that good too?

If both are flexible, it isn't as tumultuous. Yeah. But there may be a lack of structure, you know, that helps the relationship actually grow. Yeah. It is nice to have one person and says, Hey, let's make sure we have dinner.

Yeah, of course.

You know, because if both are super flexible, there may not be enough intention to make sure that the relationship is moving forward. So I just think it's find the right, you know, I don't call it a balance. It's the right tension.

Yes.

You know, because I don't really believe in balance in life because I'm skewed. Like, I'm an extremist. I'm not a balanced person. And I don't think you're a balanced person either. You know, and my marriage isn't balanced. My marriage is a pendulum of my passions pulling us, her passions pulling us, me adapting to her passions, Kim adapting to my passions, and us constantly moving forward in this beautiful rhythm of tensions.

Really?

Yeah.

Any other principles you would add? The spiritual principles. Have fun.

Enjoy each other, laugh, play. That's like principle number one for me. and you just can't be mad at each other when you're laughing together. You can't hold bitterness when you're laughing together. You can't live in the past when you're laughing together. When you're laughing together, you're completely in that, in this moment, you're completely present. So have fun, laugh together, enjoy life. And that that's number one. Two, celebrate each other's successes. And you just need to be a lifelong cheerleader for the other person. Don't assume they know you think they're awesome. Three, have as much sex as you can. Sex is supposed to be the most intimate act between two human beings. It's not supposed to be a pastime for entertainment. You know, what we've turned it into is so demeaning to the beauty of physical sexual intimacy. And it's really important in a marriage and it's really important in a relationship that, you know, in the deepening of that relationship to, I've been married 38 years and, you know, sex is still really important. It's an important part of intimacy. It's an important part of blocking everything else out in the world and making everything else irrelevant. And it's just about us.

Being present in the moment.

Being present in that moment.

Wow.

You know, and just so annoying that they're fully loved and completely loved. I think it's really important. And then, you know, maybe people are surprised to hear that from a pastor or whatever, you know, but that's just real life, you know? I mean, there's a whole book called the Song of Solomon. that's written about sexual relationships between a man and a woman. And it's funny if the Lord just tried to turn it into a metaphor about God and the church, or it's not, it's really about humans. And because Solomon was a romantic, you know. And I do think that romance is important, things like surprise and, you know, doing unexpected acts of kindness for each other. And, When you date, there's a process of winning that person's affection. That process never ends. If you don't date and romance your spouse, you will end up losing that love. It's what nurtures it, it's what waters it, it's what allows it to flourish.

Yeah, I think A friend of mine once said, if you do in the beginning, what did he say? He said, if you do in the beginning of dating in a relationship, what you're not doing at the end, it wouldn't be the end. Something like that. If you continue doing what you were doing in the beginning, at the end, it wouldn't be the end, because you kept doing it.

Yeah. Got it.

You know what I mean? It's like, but you stopped doing the thing that created the connection.

Let me just say something about since I went there to talk about sex and intimacy. Yeah. Part of the reason a lot of relationships don't have sustainability is that sex becomes a way of circumventing intimacy.

What do you mean?

Sex creates an illusion of intimacy without the reality of intimacy. And what if I just, just be super basic. You will, if you're going to be married 40 years, you're going to talk a lot more than you have sex.

Uh-huh.

You know, no matter how much you have sex, you're gonna talk a lot more.

You don't have sex so much.

Yeah. And if you don't have a person you want to talk to, you will not have a person you want to have sex with. And so what ends up happening is a lot of people move into sexual intimacy before they actually move into actual intimacy.

So powerful. I made this mistake in every previous relationship.

You know, it's both a mistake guys and girls make. Guys make it because they don't want to. They don't know if they can actually move toward real intimacy because we don't know how to be transparent and authentic.

Vulnerable and yeah.

Vulnerable, yeah. And women often want it because it makes them feel like they're loved and they are embraced by that person. And so you're attributing a lot of intention to it. I remember.

Chemicals can confuse you.

They can, they can confuse you. I was speaking at this event one time and I talked about sex and intimacy and this couple came up. They were not married. They were living together and he was very upset because she was listening. And she said, they came up and she said, I don't think he really likes me. I think he just wants me.

Desires me sexually.

Yeah, yeah, you know, it's actually. and he goes, no, it's not true. And I told her, let's go talk to him. And I said, okay, here's a test. When you go home tonight, don't have sex, just talk. And if he can't talk to you throughout the whole night enjoying dinner and talking and engaging conversation without having sex, you basically know he thinks you're boring. And because what happens a lot of times, is that when a guy just wants to go right to having sex, he actually thinks you're boring. There is nothing else in the relationship that can hold his attention. And I know I'm going a little bit in here, but I'm just saying I think that a huge part of masculine intimacy is learning how to be vulnerable through conversation and that human connection and not circumventing the process of actually knowing each other.

Mm-. And so getting to know each other first through conversation, not sexually.

Do you like each other?

Yeah.

Not just want each other.

That's huge.

You know, and that's going to be kind of the backdrop of life because loving someone is really important. And I'm going to say it in an odd way, liking them is really important too.

If you're going to be with them for a long time, you got to like them.

Yeah, just even as a parent, think about this. A lot of parents love their kids, but they don't like their kids. You know why? Because the kids aren't likable. And when we were raising our kids, I made it a goal that I was going to raise kids I liked.

How do you do that?

And trying to teach them basic things like kindness and compassion and respect and integrity and just trying to make them good human beings. More than successful human beings. I want them to be like good humans. And I really like my kids. They're also interesting. I've been around other people and they don't ask questions. And my kids are so inquisitive, they question everything. They don't accept anything I say as face value. And they press into everything. And I told him, I said, when I've been around other families, they all see the world the same. They don't even ask each other hard questions. how boring would that life be? And so I think it's true not just in a marriage relationship or a dating relationship, but also with your kids. You want people where they are free to be themselves, ask all the hard questions, where you have fun together and enjoy life. But I actually, Louis, I really believe that humans are designed for relationship. that we're not designed to do life alone. And that it's not that being single is an aberration at all. It's that being single isn't the only human connection. You can be single and have deep relationships.

Absolutely.

You can have deep friendships. And people will come to Mosaic, the church that I started here in Hollywood. and people will say, well, you know, I can't find community. Not many, but some. And I'll always ask them, I said, tell me where you found community in the past. It'll always be nowhere. I say, you see, the problem isn't that there's not Community here at Mosaic. The problem is no one ever taught you the skills of developing Community. Like, it's not that there aren't friendships here, is that you don't know the basic skills of building friendships. and a lot of the things that are almost like essential for human survival, we're not learning anymore. You have to learn how to be a friend. You have to learn how to be kind to people. You have to learn how to see people as value. They're not a commodity. They're the highest value that you'll ever experience in your life. And so some of it is like anywhere I go in the world, I have friends instantly. You have friends instantly. Absolutely. Everywhere I go in the world, I have community instantly. And it happens naturally because people matter to me. It happens naturally because people matter to you. Yeah, we're curious.

We want to ask questions. We connect.

You care about people. You're interested in them. You're curious. That's why you do what you do. That's why I do what I do. It's because you find people fascinating. You know, I thought, oh, more tragic than not getting to see every place.

In the world is not getting to.

Meet all the people in the world. I drive sometimes when I'm in different places in the world and I'll see like restaurants full of people talking. I actually have this feeling, I just wish I could go sit at their table and go, what are you guys talking about? Because I see people talking and laughing and having a great time and I feel this longing going, I bet you they're having the best conversations. And people don't realize that when we're small, we think life is all about things. you know, the gifts that we get. We get a little older, become adolescents, we think life is about experiences. First kiss, first date, you know. And then eventually, if we grow up, life becomes about relationships. There are a lot of adults who are still about things and still about experiences and don't realize that when you look back on your life, the highlights of your life will not be about the most things or the best experiences. It will be about the people. if you have healthy relationships, you'll have great memories. If you have unhealthy relationships, you will.

Not have great memories.

That's true. Doesn't matter how big the experience or how big the plane, the boat, the car, the pocketbook.

If the relationships weren't good, it'll be a bad memory.

That's right. It'll be a bad time. Yeah. But if you have great relationships, the times we have no money, you remember how you last and enjoyed life. I can remember when Kim and I slept on the floor because we couldn't afford a bed. some of the best memories of my life. Because we were doing it together. And you have these great experiences in life. You ever had a vacation or experience where you fought with the people you're with?

Yes.

That vacation was not a vacation.

No, it was a nightmare.

It was a nightmare. And you realize, oh, the best experience in the world can be ruined by a bad relationship.

And the worst experiences can be amazing. by a great relationship.

That's right. Yeah. And so people need to realize the highest frequency at which you will ever live your life is human relationships. Yeah.

You know, in the modern world, it seems less and less people are waiting to have sex.

Yeah.

Until they're married.

Right. Almost no one waits.

Right, right.

Yeah. It's very rare. It's very rare.

It's probably, what, 1% maybe less than that. What do you think is a good amount of time to wait for people. Were you like, okay, I've actually gotten to know this person, maybe you're not gonna wait till marriage, but you've decided we're gonna wait until the fifth date, 20th date, 100th date, whatever it is. What do you think should be the knowing of, okay, I'm not gonna wait till I'm married, but if the second.

Best option is this, what would that be? So you're asking the wrong person. Because one, even before I believed in God or believed in Jesus was a person of faith, I know this is hard to believe. I never had sex until I was married.

Wow. You got married at what? 18?

No, I was 25.

Okay.

Yeah. And it wasn't because of my faith. I don't know why.

Just trying to get girls to like.

You, that's what it was. That was it. You know, no, you know, I had this view of human value that I thought, I don't want to treat another human being the way I would want my daughter to be treated.

That's powerful.

Even though I didn't believe in God. I don't even know really where this came from. I remember even once having a conversation with a parent and saying, you know, this girl, she just, you know, she wants to sleep around and I'm not sure what I should do. And I don't know why I said it just one day I was frustrated. They go, oh, there are girls you just sleep with. That was advice I was giving. In fact, they said, there's some girls you marry, some girls you have sex with.

Wow.

And I remember looking at him and because the person who told me was actually a Christian and I was not. And I said, yeah, I want to hear your opinion when it comes to your kids one day. And so somehow, I'm not sure why, but I just, I did not have sex with other human being because I wanted to wait till I was fully committed to a person. I didn't know why. It wasn't a legal thing or like a religious thing. It's just the way I was, I structured my own soul.

I feel like I was at a lower level of that. I was like, 'cause I knew a lot of my friends and family members had sex in their teens. And I said, I wanna wait till I'm 18, till I'm an adult. And then I did it.

Everyone I knew had sex. I knew I was a absurd exception. In fact, by the time I was 20, I was going, why am I doing this? I literally would ask myself, this is stupid. But I just couldn't because I didn't want to look back on my life going, I think I used that person. And I have this internal mechanism where I just never want to take advantage of another human being. So in that sense, I'm the wrong person to ask because I actually see sex as the highest human expression of intimacy. So I am a person the way Todd was married. and I would just say you're circumventing your fear of commitment by having sex before you're married. It's not even about the moral issue. It's about the fact that you're afraid of committing yourself to another human being. And so I would go from that route and ask, have you dealt with that yet?

Interesting. Okay. So I mean, for the 99% of people who are who appreciate that, but are still gonna have sex before they get married.

I know.

Is it at least be fully committed to the person? Is it, you know, would you have, if you had to lower your standards to a lower level of frequency, what would that, what would you suggest? It would be a feeling, maybe for whatever reason, okay, we're not gonna get married for five years, but we're fully.

In partnership and we're living together. No, you don't have sex when you see the other person as something you're using.

Okay, that's great.

And so first of all, like value yourself more than any one nightstand.

Yes.

Value yourself more than just having sex with someone who doesn't even won't even remember your name.

Yes.

Value yourself more than having sex with someone who doesn't love you. And yeah, and so and I know that that's not like, look, I understand that I'm the exception here.

Sure.

You know, I just think that sex should be the outcome of love. Right. And so he asked me to lower my standard of going, I just pulled out commitment. I think it should be love and commitment.

Right, right.

So I'm going, okay, if I lower it...

But you're saying commitment is marriage is what your definition of commitment is.

I am saying that, look, when you move to that level of intimacy, whether you realize that you've psychologically married, whether you realize it or not. And whether you want to acknowledge, I say, I'm not even looking at institutional marriage. Yes. I'm looking at the psychology, what's happening in the emotional marriage. Yes. Yes. And you know as well as I do that when you're in a deep relationship and you believe you love that person and now you're having sex, when.

You break up, you're going through the same emotional trauma as divorce. Wow. So you're saying if you don't have sex, say you're in a relationship for a year or two and you don't have sex before marriage, You're saying if you break up with the person without having sex, it's easier, whereas less trauma.

Well, the only chance you really have of maintaining a friendship is if you haven't had sex. I mean, you just look back on your life. How many people did you have sex with?

It's funny that you're still friends with. Well, it's funny 'cause I've always said this, that I would, I'm the type of guy that, I'm like, if I've been with someone in a past relationship, and I, you know, I want the best for all these women I've been with, all these women I've been with, but I'm also like, you know, we experience time together. I still would like to be, part of me is like, yeah, I'd still like to be friendly, right? And have a friendship. None of them want to be friends with me. And I'm always like, man, yeah, is that bad?

Or maybe because you. Sex is an unspoken commitment, whether you like to acknowledge it or not, right? And then once you break up the relationship, there's a violation of that commitment of trust.

Interesting.

And we don't talk about that. So I'm talking about legal marriage. I'm talking about what happens to your soul. I think the challenge that we're facing right now is that all the old moral constructs are being thrown out, saying, hey, marriage is antiquated.

Have sex with anyone whenever you want, hook up culture.

Yeah, and what we're really not paying attention to is what is actually happening to the internal makeup of a human being. What's happening psychologically, what's happening to you spiritually, what's happening to you in terms of the essence of your own soul. And it's inescapable that when you move to a level of intimacy with a person, and you believe that you love them and you believe they love you. And then you have the abrupt end of that because those relationships, whether we like it or not, they don't end un-abruptly. The deeper you go, the more tearing there is when it's over. And we try to pretend that we can have sex with one person and another person, another person, and it does nothing to us. And frankly, if it does nothing to you, you're a sociopath. and you're damaging other people. But you are getting damaged. Your soul is being affected. You are going through a psychological divorce. It's interesting that studies show that children are more traumatized by divorce than they are by the death of a parent.

Really?

Yeah, they're more traumatized by the divorce of their parents than the death of their parent. And I think that whether you believe, you know, in marriage or whether you believe that sex is supposed to only happen in confines of marriage, what you need to believe is that moving towards sexual intimacy with another person has a spiritual, psychological, emotional bonding that when the relationship breaks, it actually has a deep effect on you as a human being. so when you're just sleeping with a lot of people, what's happening is that your soul is actually becoming numb. And you lose the ability to feel. And it's like drug abuse when, you know, the reason addiction happens is because what used to give you a high doesn't anymore. And then you have more and more. You have more and you have more. And so what happens with with sex is that sex becomes an addiction. And it doesn't give you that feeling anymore. It doesn't give you that feeling of being loved. It doesn't give you that feeling of pleasure. It gives you that feeling of warmth. And so you just keep escalating the situation. And you're traumatizing your soul. And you don't realize that you're losing the ability not just to love, you're losing the ability to experience love. And so I would say that people need to be really aware that human beings are not the same as other animals, that human beings cannot have sex in a healthy way separated from their psychological well-being.

And that's why commitment or deeper levels of commitment or marriage or whatever is important in that process. your opinion, your belief.

No, no. That's why those things are important in my experience.

Right, right, right.

You know, I would never hold another person to my beliefs. Like, you know, it's not my job to convince you or someone else to not have sex until they're married. I wouldn't even brought it up except you brought it up.

Yeah.

But it would be. But I do consider it my responsibility to say, oh, you can make those choices, but don't. I hope you're not pretending that they don't have an effect. Because when you're traumatized and when you don't know why you can't trust, when you don't know why you can't love, and when you don't know why you don't feel anymore, someone's gonna have to talk to you about how you treated this as a diminished aspect of the human experience. And it doesn't have the effect.

Not a sacred aspect. Not a sacred aspect.

I actually think sex is sacred. and, and, you know, but anything that's diminished loses its effect to impact you in a positive way.

Interesting.

You know, how do we, by the way, people who overeat never overeat on good food. Right.

You don't overeat on broccoli and vegetables and.

Yeah, yeah, you, salad and, and people who have indiscriminate sex. are eating junk food. They're not eating the best food in the world. And they're becoming junk food. And so if you treat yourself like junk food, you shouldn't expect that you're making someone else better. So maybe that would be the question. When someone has sex with you, are they becoming a better human being?

Well, people with a big ego might think, oh, they're having a great time with me. They're having a great experience.

Well, you know, you're having a great time when you're high on heroin.

Yeah.

I'm not asking you how you feel on the high. I'm asking you afterwards. What happens afterwards? Does that person become a better human being?

That's interesting.

Like, I want to live my life where everyone who has crossed my path becomes a better person.

That's a good. I like that. I like that. So how do we. Okay, someone listening, watching is like, you know what? This makes sense, but I've been traumatizing myself for years by. getting into a relationship and having sex too quickly and then it not working out and then having casual sex and then feeling like I can't trust myself or other people or not being open to love. What would you say is the process on how to actually heal after a breakup or after casual sex encounters that have traumatized you?

Yeah, again, I would say casual sex is your personal declaration that you do not believe you're worthy of love.

Wow.

And I just think the big point is that you need to figure out how to come to a place where you know you're worthy of love. So whatever you decide, don't decide because you don't feel worthy of love. Right. Okay.

Don't make it because you're seeking love.

Yeah. Because you don't believe that person will stay with you.

Mmm. Ooh, interesting.

Who has sex? See, you know, because then you're actually giving someone something because you don't believe you can receive love freely. You know, and it's odd, but when you're talking about unconditional love, you're right in the middle of it right here, you know? And I I think that the greatest lovers in the world are the people who can love one person for a lifetime. Like when, you know, guys, you know, I love women. And I go, really? You know?

Yeah.

You know, because, like, I, I sat in a room with these guys at this Mastermind, and all the guys at the table were talking about all the women they're having sex with. And, and I, I'm sitting there thinking to myself, if the women that they were having sex with were hearing this, would they still choose to have sex with them? Or do they have such a low self-esteem they still would? And they were like, yeah, she didn't have much of a face, but she had a great body, so I just didn't look at her. Oh, man. You could just, you know, and then they just, you know, pretty descriptive language. And on and on. And finally I said, I wonder if those women are getting together right now saying, you know, he has great abs, but he's brain dead. you know, and, or he wasn't much, you know, a human being, but at least, you know, and, and they just looked at me and they said, yeah, maybe, you know? And what was really bothering me was that they actually saw women as something to be used. So there is this pendulum, you know, Louis, where we, when you diminish something, eventually it becomes completely worthless. And so maybe what I would say is if I had to choose one extreme between everyone just sleeping around indiscriminately with each other, using each other, or this prudish idea that you should only have sex in your marriage, I'm going to go way over on this side because no one will ever accuse me of making my sexual choices for my own personal pleasure or, or betterment. Like, I'm at the very least, I can say I made my choices to cause the least amount of harm and to do the most good. Maybe I was wrong, but I. But I tried to do the most good.

Right. For yourself and for others.

Yeah. For myself and for others. Not for what I wanted. Right. You know, see, because.

Not for your desires.

Not for my desires. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and. but because I try to make all my choices that way. So sex was just one of those.

Yeah.

You know, and so I think some of it is just to make sure that you're not traumatized by your future decisions shouldn't. Don't have to be a reflection of your past decisions. Like, wherever you are right now, if, you know, you. You feel like I've. I've made a lot of choices that I regret. Like, I can't decide whether you regret those choices or not. only you can. But I think there are people out there going, I wish I'd maybe waited longer. I wish I had been more cautious in the process. Maybe I wish I'd valued myself more. And I would just say the beautiful thing, and that's why I always go back to Jesus is, today is a new start, today is a fresh light. It doesn't mean your past doesn't have momentum. But it doesn't have to control you. We're always just one choice away from a different us.

Absolutely.

And yeah, I just don't want people to look back on their life and feel like they weren't loved, they were just used. I think everyone's worthy of love. And I think everyone's worthy of someone who commits their life to them, Louis.

Yeah, that's beautiful. That's the ultimate love. I've got a couple final questions, but I want people to be aware of and get your book, the Genius of Jesus, the Man who Changed Everything. And really the kind of the key principles of genius that Jesus lived by, the genius of empathy, of power, grace, good, true, and the beautiful. A lot of amazing stuff in here. I started skimming through it. I told you I'd skim through it. I've been skimming through it. I'm gonna get through more of it soon. But make sure you guys pick up a copy and get a few for your friends. this would be an inspiring book that you can share with other people. You can talk about it together and really get some wisdom from this. So get the, the genius of Jesus, the man who changed everything. And you have a great philosophical approach and spiritual approach to, to the things that you've been studying within genius and a lot of people, but also in genius. So make sure you guys pick up a copy. They can get it at thegeniusof.com or they can just follow you on social media. Erwin McManus everywhere on social media. Also, if you're in LA, make sure to go check out Mosaic because it's a beautiful time or you can watch it online.

Or you go to South Pasadena, we.

Have at the Rose Theater. It's beautiful there too. Or you can just watch it online if you're around the world where they can go to mosaic.org to watch the live stream anywhere in the world if they're not here in LA. This is a question I've asked you before. I'm curious if it's the same answer if you have something different here. This is called the Three Truths. Imagine it's your last day on Earth, many years away from now. You continue to accomplish all of your wildest dreams, still with some untapped potential, but you've let a lot of it out. But for whatever reason, all of your written material, your audio, your video material has to go with you somewhere else, or it's gone. It's gone to another place, or with you, or wherever you want it to go, but it's not on this Earth. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true. three lessons that you've learned from your life that you would share with the world. And this is all we would have from you are these three truths. What would you say are those three truths for you?

Well, I just go with whatever just pops into my mind. Yes. The first thing came to my mind is being human is a gift. I think the second truth I would leave is you're created in the image of God. And there would be You must choose to live.

You must choose to live. What does that mean?

It means we exist without choice. But to live, you have to choose.

We existed without choosing to be here.

But to truly live? That's the result of the choices you make.

Wow, that's good. Yeah, those are good. Before I ask the final question, Erwin, I want to acknowledge you for being an incredible light to the world. You've been such a light for me since I met you, I think two and a half years ago. It's been such a gift to be a part of your life and part of your family's experience and be at events and at your home and at your mosaic. And every time I go, I just feel more peace. So I appreciate you for bringing your creative genius to the world so we can have more clarity, hope, love and peace, and I'm just glad you're alive. So I appreciate your gifts.

-Hey, love you so much, Louis.

-Of course, of course. Final question is what's the definition of greatness for you?

-It'S funny, because you know, genius and greatness really have a very parallel kind of journey, you know? I just can't escape, I guess, for me, greatness is what you do for others. And fame is what you do for yourself.

-Yeah.

And so, I would say my definition of greatness is the good you do for the world. Arvin, thanks man. Appreciate it.

Thank you so much, bro.

Thank you so much for listening.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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