The Science Behind What We Get Wrong About Relationships EP 1328

What would you say in the research you did were the big flags, red flags for why this person probably won't be a great relationship partner for you long term? What are those big red flags that you think that everyone should be looking out for?

I mean, first and foremost is that issue of not communicating.

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Well, I mean, I think the first thing people think is that, you know, we can just kind of avoid problems. That conflict is bad, conflict is going to grow. And the truth is, You got to have those hard conversations. The majority of marriages don't end in yelling and screaming. The majority of marriages end when people live parallel lives. You yell and scream when you care. Once you stop caring, it goes another direction. Number two, I think the big thing is this is research from John Gottman, who's like the leading researcher. He's the best.

Yeah, he's great.

Is that he listened to couples argue. And 96% of the time, by listening to the first three minutes, he could predict how it ended. If it starts ugly, it's going to end ugly. If you can take a deep breath, you can chill out a little bit, you're going to be so much better. It's just that little bit how we begin predicts how we end. And the third thing I would say is like, there's a lot of difficult stuff on love and marriage we don't hear about. It's like a lot of things, two or three years after people get married, their happiness level is pretty much where they were before. Sometimes it declines. So you got to keep it alive. And one of the things I talk about in the book is basically you got to keep dating. The thing is, when people go on pleasant dates, the research shows, eh, people got to go on exciting dates.

Adventures.

Adventures are key. Adventures are key. People think, oh, well we did all that fun, exciting stuff when we first started dating because we were in love. It's, you know, but actually it goes both ways. You did it because you were in love, but that's also what produced the love. So we keep doing exciting things in psychology. They're called emotional contagion. Whatever environment we're in, we kind of pick up those emotions and we associate that with who we're with. If you're at concerts, it's exciting.

And if you do fun things with your partner, you can keep love alive. So if you do all that for the first couple of years, then you just coast. It's hard to keep the love alive from years ago, a bond. You can stay connected, but you may not have as rich or fulfilling of.

A love life is what I'm hearing you say. Absolutely. It's like to just to kind of like hit love with the defibrillator paddles and keep it going where it's like, that's why a lot of people feel resentful in relationships because, oh, we used to do this. You used to do this for me as opposed to kind of keeping it going.

It seems to be a trend for a lot of relationships that you used to do this and the other person used to do this. But after two, five, ten years, they stopped doing it. Why do you think so many people stop living the adventurous life in the relationship once they're together after a period of time.

I mean, a lot of it is we get busy, you know, and a lot of it is people get kind of in a rut, but those ruts are really dangerous. It's like what happens is Gottman calls it negative sentiment override. And basically what that is is basically the lack of talking, the lack of communication. It compounds negatively. Instead of having a conversation with your partner, you start having a conversation with yourself where they oh, if I raised this issue, they'd probably say, and that can spiral into negativity. Gottman talks about love maps, which is like really getting to know your partner. Not how they like their coffee, not where they like to vacation, but asking them the tough questions. What does love mean to you? What does happiness mean to you? What does a great partner mean to you? Because that's something you can never get unless you ask them and you're getting the answers to the test.

Mm. So what is a love map then?

A love map is basically just that knowledge of your partner where you are asking, this is what makes them happy, this is what makes them less happy. But rather than, like I said, the minutia, you know, what bothers them about their day, asking them the questions that there aren't black and white answers to. What does happiness, what does love mean, what does marriage mean? Because it answers so much when you think and we tend to think that.

Everyone knows, thinks the same way as us or. Yeah, the same beliefs, but we don't.

And then you're thinking, oh, I didn't take the trash out. It's not that big a deal because I don't think it's that big a deal. Whereas your partner sees that as a sign that you care and we just associate different values. But if you ask, you can say, maybe I don't think this is that big a deal, but they really do think it's a big deal and vice versa. When the things that you feel, oh, they're neglectful. It's like, no, you got to tell them. They got to know.

Wow. What do you think are three questions we should all know before deciding to commit to a relationship?

Well, what does love mean to you? What does a good partner mean to you? If it's on the way to marriage, what does marriage mean to you? Because we live in a world with so many options and possibilities and that's awesome. But that's the trickiest thing. Eli Finkel has done research at Northwestern and like what he's found is this tremendous shift where number one, over the past 20 years, you know, the importance of marriage as a relationship has nearly doubled. Before you were part of, you know, there was a bowling league and the Elk Lodge and people were involved in different communities. Now so much of that has been centralized in marriage that knowing how happy someone's marriage is is insanely predictive of how happy their life is because it has been so invested.

You're so integrated into them. Yeah, yeah.

It's like that it's almost make or break. And with all these options, all these possibilities, marriage has been stripped down. We don't have as many formal rules as we used to. There's so many positives to that, but there's also negatives too because you don't have a break, you don't have a seatbelt.

Give me an example, what do you mean by that?

In terms of like, men need to do this, women need to do this, That's that we don't have a template like we used to have.

There's not traditional roles like there used to be.

And that's a great thing. It's also a challenge. It's a great thing because what that means, and this is what Finkel found, is that the average relationship isn't as good as marriage isn't as good as it used to be. But the best marriages today are the best marriages there have ever been because of the lack of formal rules. If you know what you want and you put in the work, you can create a custom script that works awesome for both of you.

So it's a custom script, but it probably sounds like there's still some formal, there's some agreements to the custom script. It's not an outdated agreement that was societies, it has to be this way or this way, but it's new agreements that you're both in alignment to. Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Exactly. That's what we decided on. This is what works for us. Nobody else wrote them for us, but we also didn't neglect to create them at all. We said this is what works for us and these are the people who are having like I said the best marriages that have ever existed.

So what are the best marriages that have ever existed have in place? Are there roles and responsibilities? Are there shared agreements? Are they communicate in a certain way? What are the main themes that they all have?

What you see consistently is first that level of communication where again, you can't avoid it because when we avoid it, you start making assumptions and those are usually negative. So basically, as Gottman found, it's like you have to argue, you have to fight, it has to happen. Complaining is actually a good thing in a marriage.

Really?

Basically, he looked at, I think, the first year or two of marriage, and the couples that complained the least, for the first two years it seemed like it was going really well, they're the ones that divorced later because they weren't working through any problems, they were ignoring them. So the couples that had a moderate level of disagreement, They were getting comfortable. They were working out the things. They were agreeing. They were laying down the faults. And then it was okay. It's like getting settled in a new job. So there has to be a level of complaint. The only time complaint gets bad is when it becomes criticism. The difference is when you personalize it. You didn't take out the trash, that's fine. You didn't take out the trash because you're an idiot, that's a problem. It's not good, yeah. When it's about an activity, that's okay.

When it's about people's fundamental personality, that.

Doesn'T tend to go well.

I'm so glad you're sharing this because it's interesting because I was probably like, huh, I wonder if I'm doing it wrong because I've been in a relationship. We've been together for a while now. And I said to her before we got committed, I said, the only way I'm willing to get into a new relationship.

Yeah.

Because I've been in many that didn't work out. And I was like, the only way I'm going to get into a new one is if under a few conditions. One, the person I'm in a relationship with is doing some type of consistent therapy. It doesn't have to be every week, but something consistently once a month, right? Where they're working on their own emotional challenges, they're working through them and processing, healing and all that stuff. Number two, they've got to be willing to do therapy with me in the beginning. Because my goal is to have the uncomfortable conversations without complaining or arguing, but have them in a safer environment where we can both communicate. And it doesn't feel good. It's like, ah, it's a little scary, it's a little messy, but it's in a conscious space with a third party who can give us tools, who can help us then align on agreements that work for both of us. And it's been incredible. It's been incredible because of that shift where I think a lot of people go into therapy when it's not working to try to make it work and resolve things because they've neglected the complaining or the conversation, the communication. I was like, let's just skip all the complaining and figure out the agreements early on. So we don't have to get to a place of stress or not talking about stuff. So it's been, but we haven't been complaining with each other. So it's kind of like, am I worried that we haven't been complaining, but we've been communicating agreements and aligning to them.

So it's been a beautiful thing. You did the work up front. I mean, up front. The biggest reason, most marriage therapy doesn't work. And one of the biggest reasons why it doesn't work is people wait too long to go.

It's too late. It's too late, right?

Basically, people don't wait until six years in and actually most divorces occur four years in.

40 years in?

40 years in. And then so by people are going, a lot of the stuff is too far gone.

You're already like, I'm over it. I'm exhausted. I don't care about this person anymore. I'm resentful.

To diverge too far, right? Yeah. You, instead of going to a doctor's appointment, you said, let's go to the gym and stay in shape. Now. And we don't need to have the open heart surgery literally later.

Yeah. I mean, and then try to recover.

From the wounds that are so, like, broken. Right. Well, that's what's so powerful is, like, you, you had someone to kind of poke and prod the two of you to open up and do it instead of just checking the box. We talked, like, you had a professional go, no. Now you gotta open up a little bit more. And it sounds like you really laid a lot of good groundwork and got it out.

100%, yeah. And we're spending four to six hour sessions on Saturday sometimes just to make sure, all right, let's talk about all these things that might be an issue later down the line or that are unclear right now. Let's get clarity so there's no confusion. And I think, I've experienced a lot of pain in previous relationships that I take responsibility for 'cause I stayed in these things. But I think because I experienced so much of that, I was just like, I don't want any of that anymore. You know, I'd rather be so open, courageous in my communication, talk about all the uncomfortable things, even if it doesn't feel good, to eliminate later pain. You know, dive into it now so I don't have it later.

Well, I mean, you set up an environment where you were able to be compassionate with one another. You had a professional there, you both agreed to this. It didn't happen spontaneously when somebody was angry. Being compassionate in the middle of conversations, Gottman talks about repair, where it's like even if you're having big problems, if you pause to be a little compassionate, to show a little respect.

It's so hard for people though.

It's because by the time anybody has a conversation, they're usually so worked up and angry already. It's like you went in there calm and cool, you had a referee, and you both let it out.

Exactly. And letting it out in a conscious way. What does the science say that you've done all the research on it about history of relationships that most people don't know about?

In terms of how they worked in the past?

Yes. And then now where we're at now and where you think it's going to be?

See, the interesting thing is in the past it was very prescribed. I mean, you had arranged marriages, you had everything kind of set up that basically was all formal systems. That was good for society in some ways because it kept the smooth running machine, but it wasn't really good for the individual. Even if you go back to the 1960s, the percentage of men and women who said, oh, you know, you don't have to be in love with the person you get married was staggeringly high compared to now. Love is considered essential. That's really great, but the challenge we're facing is we created this winner-take-all environment where in the past It was very formal. Love wasn't as important. Stability, rock solid. Now we want it all. And that's tricky to keep it stable, to keep it safe, potentially to raise children. And also, you have to fulfill me and bring me everything I've ever dreamed. And the thing is, we face those challenges, we can overcome them. The issue is that a lot of people have fairy tale visions. And fairy tales can be problematic because they're passive. It's supposed to magically happen to me. As opposed to rolling up your sleeves, then you can have one of those best marriages that have ever existed.

Right. Where both parties are doing 100% of the effort and intention, not waiting for the other person to give them something all day long and make them feel a certain way.

I mean, we spend a lot of time hoping the other person will read our mind. And as opposed to when we have those conversations, Like you did where you made it right up front. It's like, not only do we kind of get the answers to the test, this is what happiness is, this is what marriage is to them. But also, when you learn where people's needs are coming from, you can find a way to honor both of your values. You know, it's like, oh, they go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, they leave the light on, it drives me crazy. Okay, well if you found out, that's because they had a childhood fear of the dark. Right. Now, oh, oh, I understand, oh my God, People, once you understand the story, once you understand the narrative, you understand where those feelings are coming from, we get so more compassionate, but if we don't have that conversation, then we assume it's because they're out to get us and they're trying to ruin my life.

Sure, sure. I've talked to a few people who have been married for 40 plus years who are happily married, which there's a lot of people that have been married for a long time that are not happy, right? Or that just surviving, they're not thriving in the marriage. and I'll ask them these questions, like what is the, what's the key to being happy consistently? Obviously, it might have some ups and downs, but like staying connected and happy and all those things and integrity. And almost all of them say that 80% of it is who you choose. And I think when we don't have the conscious conversations early on, and we neglect the uncomfortable conversations early on to make sure we're in alignment with our values, our vision, our life Dollar agreements. When we neglect that, it just causes more pain in the future. When you keep kind of the mask of the potential fairy tale of what you think they're gonna do and without actually asking the questions. How important is it for people to be consistently having these uncomfortable conversations early on?

No, it's essential. Because what you're talking about, like that issue of selection, is this person right? This is why you hear so much about people trying to change their partners. Because you didn't pick the right one. You didn't pick the right one.

You don't accept them because you didn't pick the right one. Because if we would ask these questions earlier in the relationships, we would be able to say, separate our image of a perfect person and say, okay, actually they don't think about money this way, or they don't think about raising kids this way, or they have a religious belief that it's different from mine. And we could say, oh, you're a great person, but it's probably not the right fit for me and my life's vision. But a lot of us don't do that. We're too chemically bonded by the feelings of love and the chemical connections that kind of cloud us from those other big decisions.

Yeah, I mean with the little stuff, like how you argue, how you dispute, those you can work on. You're probably not going to change somebody's fundamental values. So finding out up front, this is what they think about marriage, this is what they think about love. It's like couples argue a lot about money. It's like, why is that? Well, it's very simple. It's like because money is a quantification of values. Did I spend money on things that benefit the family or selfishly benefit myself? Did I spend money on... Money is a... You get a number. This is how important this is to me. And if you're not on the same page in terms of what's important to you, it's often going to show up in terms of money. So it's like understanding, hey, we're on the same page. because feelings often fade, especially if we don't work on it. But if you have the same values, then you know you're headed in the same direction. Then it's just tic-tacking to get it perfect instead of trying to close this huge chasm that you didn't know was there.

So how important is values in choosing the right partner?

I mean, I think it's critical. I mean, you can make things work if you really have it. But it's like to understand so much harder, right?

How do you make it more effortless is by being in alignment on these things, right? What are the three to five values that we should really have figured out where it's not perfect match but you're in alignment? 80% of the values, oh yeah, that makes sense and I'm here. What are those three to five key values for a relationship?

I mean, I think a big issue is the issue of like what is success to us? You know, being able to say, it's kind of like when are we on the right track when we're spending as much time together as humanly possible? or are we on the right track when we both have a balance? Getting that issue of what do we value and how do we honor both of those things, this is something critical that can be very difficult to figure out later on. Because one of the critical things is when people are trying to change their partner, there's a way to do this and there's a way to do it successfully. And they actually call it the Michelangelo effect because it's but what it has to do with is finding out who your partner's ultimate vision of themself is and moving them towards that. So to your point, if their values are so far astray from yours, you're actually moving them further away from you. Because if you're gonna yell at them or chide them, that's not gonna work. But if they have this vision of who they'd like to be and you help them get towards that, it's great for both of you.

Yes.

But if you, if your values are so different, you're actually hurting the relationship to make them better.

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You can, but it's exactly the steps that you talked about where if we know our values are pretty similar and we know that maybe because of circumstances or lack of confidence, they're not moving in the direction that they want to move in. If you look at who do they see, not you see, who do they see as their ideal self? And you start to support them in those endeavors. then they become a better version of themselves. And that is going to make them happy. They're going to be likely to move forward. It's what they want.

And be more grateful in the relationship to you.

Exactly.

For supporting them. Yes.

So it's like, it's understanding where they want to go and supporting them in that, but you need the answer up front and it needs to be aligned with yours.

And what happens if you try to change someone in a relationship to meet your needs and your desires of what you like as opposed to what they want?

Yeah, that's disastrous. That's what most people do. And that's what doesn't work because you're trying to make them into something they're not. Best case scenario is they're not going to be very good at it. Worst case scenario is they're going to be resentful because you're basically saying, you're not good enough or I don't like you as you are.

Right, so you need to change to make me happier.

And so if you understand upfront, we are both generally headed in the same direction. then helping them be better is helping them be better for you.

What is a maybe a controversial strategy or technique to making a relationship better, deeper, stronger?

What's really interesting is all the research on narrative, on the research on stories. And one thing that's very controversial is People often don't know the story that they're looking for. People think that, oh, I want this kind of person, and they always end up with the other kind of person. And they want to blame the world. And it's like if you keep choosing the same partner time and time again, it's probably you. You need to look at that and there's some just amazing work in terms of figuring out what your story is. figuring out what your partner's story is because some people think they're looking for a romance, they're actually looking for a war story. Some people enjoy the conflict. Nobody wants to admit that. But to be honest with yourself and then be honest with your partner and to find a partner that you're aligned with, those are the relationships that work is when we say, again, not to speculate but to look back. Not to say, well, I think, no, that's rationalizing. versus five times in a row, I did this. That's probably what I usually do. You can change it, but it's like to say, this is the pattern I'm looking for. You know, what does that say about me? What do I want to change? And is that aligned with what my partner wants? It's deep, it's hard, it's painful, but it's incredibly powerful.

What's the biggest thing you've learned about yourself in the last few years from doing this research and working on this book about how you've done things incredibly well in previous relationships and how you've like maybe something in the book where you're like, wow, I never did this well and it's probably why it caused challenge in the past.

Oh, just the issue of opening up.

Really?

Yeah, the vulnerability issue. We know that's, I think we've heard a lot that it's powerful for romantic relationships, but it's just in friendships, in every relationship. In work it can be a challenge if you're in a leadership role, you do need to be seen as authoritative, But like even in your friendships, Arthur Aaron at Stony Brook University, he got people who are strangers to feel like lifelong friends in an hour by just making them answer questions that progressively had them reveal more about themselves. Wow. In one hour because they had to proceed, answer this question, answer this question, and people find connections. And what's really critical there is that issue of vulnerability Because if I'm just giving facts, that's fine. Similarities, very powerful. But what's more important is when I tell you something about me that could make me look bad, that maybe could be used against me, that could embarrass me or shame me, I am basically, I am not saying I trust you. I am demonstrating I trust you. I'm handing you a knife and I'm saying you could stab me. I trust you not to do it. That is a powerful way to demonstrate I trust you and people are likely to reciprocate. And once you escalate that, I go a little deeper, you go a little bit deeper. Now, there's not an idea of trust, there's a feeling of trust.

That's interesting. And I think you've got to be, I think some people maybe don't do that as much as they would because they maybe have opened up or been vulnerable and had like a narcissistic relationship that has used that vulnerability against them. Later in their relationship and manipulated them with their vulnerabilities as opposed to trusted them and held it with a kindness. So I think that's why some people might stop opening up, not everyone, and why it's hard for people if they've been used against their vulnerability. And that's why it is tough to be vulnerable because you don't want someone to use it against you.

We can mitigate that. The issue is start small. Start small, do they reciprocate?

Don't tell them your whole life trauma right away, yeah.

Don't confess to any murders over Thanksgiving dinner. You know, it's like start small. Do they reciprocate? Are they being vulnerable back? If they're not, then this is already.

Feeling a little one-sided. Then don't keep giving more and more, yeah.

So it's like if you start small, they give back, you know, tit for tat a little bit, just where you're opening up, they opening up, and what you're gonna find is that that is really powerful, but if they don't respond, then what's great to your point is that it becomes a litmus test. Okay, this relationship is not going to go that far because they don't want to open up to me. They don't trust me in the same way.

It's the same way.

So maybe I should not trust them at that level.

Interesting. It's fascinating. I bet that experiment, if you did this for a day with strangers, I bet you could get strangers to be closer friends than some people who've spent a year together with surface conversations than a day together with vulnerable, intimate conversations.

This is the Arthur Aaron, the same guy who did that, the one hour to feeling like a lifelong friend. The research assistants in his lab who initially helped him with that work ended up falling in love and getting married.

Come on. Because they did the same test.

And they had to open up.

Wow.

And these people fell in love because again, we usually play it too safe. And the thing is, when we play it safe, we talk about narrow topics, we are not creating the surface area for people to connect with us. The greater that surface area, the more possibilities for similarity and the more possibilities for someone to say, you know what? They're like me. I trust them. this is worth pursuing.

Let's hang out more, let's spend more time together.

Exactly.

What were some of those questions in that hour-long experience?

They weren't anything dramatic. I mean, it was like if you could have dinner with anyone living or dead, who would it be? What is your idea of a perfect day? They weren't too invasive. He had like three stages where they got progressively more intimate. But none of them were like talking about deep childhood trauma or something like that. It was just enough that you could say something and they could respond to it and they could feel a level of similarity and they could start to get an idea again, the values issue of what if you could have dinner with any person living or dead, I'm getting to know what your values are.

And why do you want to... Yeah, if it's like some random I don't know, pop star that really didn't have a meaningful life. You're like, okay, that's interesting versus, I don't know, Einstein or someone, or Nelson Mandela or something.

We're like, okay, that's interesting. Why? Do they prioritize emotions? Do they prioritize knowledge? Do they prioritize curiosity? Who is this person?

And just having that reciprocal, because both people had to answer all the questions.

You'll see, are they actually opening up or they're kind of just keeping it safe? Right? And it was like you start to get this kind of pastiche. You start to see this pattern, oh, again and again, I'm hearing a more cerebral approach or I'm hearing a more empathetic approach.

I think just doing the exercise, even if you didn't like the answers, you still probably would respect that someone was being honest and sharing an opening up about their life, about their beliefs or visions. You can be like, wow, it's really cool we got to connect on this. And it's cool that you did the same thing as me, even if I don't align with you. but it's more than people just not sharing those things at all. It can be in surface conversations, right?

Well, I think, you know, what I think you said that was critical was just that idea of respect, where I might hear your answers and I might, they may not be similar to mine, they may not be relatable to mine, but I can hear you say something and I can go, wow, that took guts. That is not the kind of thing I would say to a stranger. And he went there, like, to courage.

You can respect and be like, okay.

Yeah, I like that. You could have played it safe and you didn't. That's that vulnerability trust issue. Because when I looked at the research, I looked at all of Dale Carnegie's stuff for making friends. And it turns out most of what Carnegie said was pretty accurate. Most of it was pretty accurate, but it's the beginning of a relationship. As we get deeper, what's there? We're not trying to build just acquaintances. And the two critical things were time and vulnerability. Vulnerability, like the issue of not only trying to empower our relationships, but also Robert Garfield at University of Pennsylvania found that not being vulnerable in your relationships increases the chance of a first heart attack and increases the chance that heart attack will be lethal.

Come on, really?

We need to open up. We need to be vulnerable.

At least with someone, right? At least with one person in our lives. So when he said that the research is showing that if you're not vulnerable with your intimate partner or friendships, you're more likely to have a heart attack.

Yes, and it's more likely to be lethal.

Holy cow, what is that about emotions trapped in the body or not expressed in a healthy way that makes us sick?

It's stress. Is that issue where it was stunning to me that was it a 2009 UC Berkeley study found that good relationships can add a decade to your lifespan, potentially. A decade. It was crazy. And then there was a meta-review where they look at all the studies about relationships. And what they found is that good relationships are second only to genetics in terms of predicting both health and longevity in humans. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's like it's so crazy we forget that there's little stressors that build up and we don't have a release valve when we can't talk about things when we can't share things, when we can't hear that it's normal, it's okay. This is really hard stuff. What was it? The issue of loneliness, the stress hormones that happen, that basically because of loneliness is the equivalent of a physical attack. Loneliness is like getting beat up. Wow. Yeah.

There's a difference between loneliness and choosing to be alone, to have alone time, to process in a healthy way, and to love on yourself and accept yourself. versus I'm sad and lonely and no.

One cares about me. This was some of the most mind-blowing research that I looked at in here, was that issue of what you're describing is the difference between loneliness and solitude. Loneliness, this sounds totally crazy, loneliness before the 19th century basically didn't exist.

We didn't have time to be lonely.

We were so enmeshed in societies. Tribes, religions, tribes, nations. We always felt a part of something. Even if we weren't close to people, and we usually were, we felt we were a part of something. So, Faye Alberti, who is a researcher at University of York, she looked back and you basically, before the 19th century, you can't hear it mentioned because we were always embedded in a group. When you hear the word lonely, it meant something by itself. It didn't have the negative stigma. Really? It wasn't until literally Frankenstein that you heard lonely in the 19th century start to be used as a negative thing. because we had an explosion of individualism, which unlocked a lot of power, a lot of great things in the world, but we felt separate. And second crazy thing, John Cacioppo, leading researcher on loneliness. What he found was that people who are lonely and people who are not lonely spend the same amount of time with others. Lonely people don't spend any more time alone. what he realized was that loneliness is not about proximity. We've all felt lonely in a crowd. You can be in Times Square on New Year's Eve, feel alone and still feel alone. You feel alone on the subway. Loneliness isn't lack of proximity to people. Loneliness is how you feel about your relationships. When you go on a business trip, you might miss your friends and family, but you know they're there. You know they're missing you, they don't care about you, you don't feel lonely, you might miss them. versus if you're surrounded by people but you think nobody cares, that's when you feel lonely. It's how you feel about those relationships.

How do you shift that feeling and what if they really don't care? You know, maybe it's all in your head and you're like, yeah, they don't care about me because they're not doing what I want or something. But how do you shift that to create a deeper connection and feeling about, you know, the few key relationships you have at least?

Yeah, I mean, that's where we want to get into time and vulnerability. those two costly signals. Spending more time, spending time is one of the most powerful signals in a relationship because time is all the stuff that Dale Carnegie talks about is easy to do. That's why we like it. That's also why manipulators like it. How you show somebody that they're really special is by costly signals. If I spend a lot of time with you, I spend an hour a day with you, I can only do that for 24 people. I've got to sleep. That shows you're special. There's no way around that. Time is costly. Vulnerability, I'm telling you things that could be used against me. That's really, those are powerful signals. And when people reciprocate those signals, we know they're serious. If they're making the time, if they're saying things that maybe they shouldn't say, then these are people who are making the effort. The other thing that's really powerful, I found this fascinating, this was just a study that just came out in 2020, was that if you're not feeling supported enough in your relationships, an easy thing you can do is introduce your friends to one another. Because the issue is there's a synergy. I think that word's often overused, but there's a synergy in that, in the sense of having one-off relationships is great, but once you start introducing your friends, you're creating a community. Your friends can coordinate. Hey, Lewis is feeling down. We should take him out. Now they can work together and you're creating your own group. You're creating your own community. That is so much more powerful than a lot of one-off relationships where people can't share information and say, this is what he needs right now.

That's interesting. That's something I've kind of done intuitively for the last 15 years. which is creating individual relationships and then saying, Hey, let's do a dinner together and kind of bringing everyone together. And trying to go beyond that by saying, Here's why you should know this person and here's why you can connect on it and here's what they're working on and here's how you guys could align on this thing. And I think the more you put people together who can benefit each other, whether it be as friends or in business or career, you're adding value to more other people in multiple ways, like you said, the synergistic ways. I think that just deepens your connection to people too.

Absolutely. I mean in terms of the emotions, you know, there's no doubt of having these friends, but also in terms of life success, it's like Mark Granovetter did research on weak ties and where usually the things our friends know, we usually know. But when you go one degree out, those are the things we're not hearing about, those are the things we're not connected. When you're connecting people with other people that are one degree out from you, they're getting new ideas, new potential, new job offers, new opportunities. You're creating this whole network.

You're the center. You're the champion of all these relationships and opportunities.

And that is so valuable for both sides. It's so valuable because it's so much easier for somebody else to just say, Sure, I'll come to dinner than having to organize it themselves. People are really going to appreciate that, but also as you being the hub of the network, then all roads lead to you.

And it usually pays dividends long term, not that you're trying to like get something out of it necessarily. And I think when it's only transactional, it doesn't feel as good.

But.

You know, I've had multiple people that have gotten married and now have kids because I've connected the dots somehow to them, whether they came to an event that I put on or I've introduced them or, you know, something. And so it's like you're you're creating a legacy in the world. Whether you're, you know, close with them or not, you're still making an impact in people's lives. And I think good things tend to happen when you impact people in that way long term.

Yeah, well, you're, you're thinking, you're starting with something positive. You're starting with good intent, then you're reaching out and doing the work. It makes such a difference. It's like, you know, there's, there's a lot of places that say they want to have impact. It's like, no, let's have positive impact. Let's focus that a little bit more. And it's like, to do that makes all the difference in the world. I mean, not only in terms of, again, relationships and love, but also in terms of career. One of the biggest tips that's come out of research in terms of people networking is there are some people who are super connectors. There are some people, if you look at your contact list, you will see they introduced you to a disproportionate number of the people you know and reaching out to them is a very high leverage way to network better. By creating these things, you're not only bringing people together, doing warm things, you may be helping these people get jobs and opportunities because you're the super connector.

Keith Ferrazzi wrote a book called Never Eat Alone, which talks about, you know, never having a meal by yourself, but always finding people to connect with and seeing how you can offer value and connecting to dots from previous connections. The power that comes beyond just personal relationships but in career business as well with that network.

Yeah. There's recent research by Nicholas Epley that basically showed we're often reluctant to even talk to strangers in a Starbucks or something like that. We often feel like, oh, we're going to annoy them. And the truth is, that's not the case. When they surveyed people just saying something small, wow, the line's long, how can you relate to them? we usually feel better. And when we think about it, like again, to specific, yeah, when I did say something, that person said something, we overemphasize the negative. Most of the times when we just say something nice, we reach out, we feel better, they feel better, and sometimes it blossoms into an actual friendship.

Sure, sure. This is powerful stuff, man. I'm curious. How do you know, how does someone know when they are truly in a loving partnership. And this is real love versus chemicals and illusions of love.

Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, there's going to be the issue of time. For the first 18 months, you. You are gonna have the chemicals. But the truth is, the chemicals usually die down. You know, it's like. So in longer relationships, you know, you are gonna, you are gonna get away from the craziness.

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But what's really powerful? I was surprised when I looked at the issue of love as a feeling. Love makes us nuts. Love makes us absolutely crazy. When you look at the historical documents.

Go back to 3000 BC in ancient China.

Wars and killing and this and that. Love was described as a malady. It was described as a sickness. Really? Yes, because it was literally a diagnosable illness. And to this day, if you just-.

Yes, because we get so nuts. But again- We don't have reason, right? It's like you gotta have some ability to not react and explode.

Yeah.

Over love.

And I was just like, why would that? And the truth is it makes sense. We talked about earlier in friendship with costly signals. What is a more costly signal than I am running around like a maniac thinking about you all the time and doing everything. I'm not behaving rationally. What does that tell you? I am invested. I am serious. I am incapable of callously taking advantage of you because I'm crazy. and they actually tested this. They looked at countries and communities where it was very easy to just ghost someone and countries and communities where it was very difficult. They had strong network ties. It was hard to ghost. What do you see where it's easier to ghost? People, the signal of love, the craziness of love is greater because your brain realizes fundamentally, I need to boost the signal to show the other person, I am nuts about them. Love is stronger because it has to communicate. It is a valuable sense, it's a valuable sense to the other person that you are literally crazy about them. And this gets more to your point, the issue of what predicts long term success in a relationship is you isolate part of that crazy idealization. Idealization, seeing that person as better than they are is not only predicts happiness in a relationship, it predicts the duration and the success of a relationship.

If you see your partner or potential partner as better than they actually are makes it a better relationship or worse relationship.

It makes better. It makes it better. You need to see them as better than they are. That is the greatest hallmark of love. Really? Yeah, because we can get cynical. Everybody has flaws. When you start making negative assumptions about your partner, that's not a good sign. There's a strong correlation between how people feel on their wedding day and how things work out. When people have second thoughts, divorce is much more likely versus when people have that idealization. You've heard it, when people first start dating, they're over the moon. This person has done everything. They've won Nobel prizes and gold medals. They are unstoppable. Having some of that and keeping some of that a little bit of a rational positive. Because the thing is, when they dive down and do the research, these people are not deluded. You realize your partner is imperfect, but you're always willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. You always believe they have the potential. You always believe it's that issue of when they do something wrong, they must be having a bad day. You're compassionate. You give them benefit of that versus the idiot did it again. Those are good things. So that idealization, seeing that person as better than they are, being able to sustain that is a great sign of true love.

Yeah, it's good. So how do we do that without having expectations though?

Yeah.

Not being like, because what if they don't live up to that vision or that ideal and they fall short of an expectation?

Yeah.

Do we create expectations or not have expectations in relationships?

Well, first and foremost, you want to keep the communication channels open. If those are hidden contracts, I expect you to do this, but I'm not going to tell you.

Then you're screwed.

Yeah. Versus when we have a clear idea, this is how you defined it, this is how I defined happiness. Okay, we both get that. We're on the same page. We both know. And then we talk about the Michelangelo effect. You know, as long as our values are aligned, to be able to say, I am going to go out of my way to help this person be the best version of themselves. Now, you're moving them in a direction that you're both aligned on. You're helping them be better and be someone they want to be. This can make all the difference. You are helping them be who they want to be, but it also is they are fulfilling the idealization that you want so much.

What if they don't want to improve? They don't want to take a look at their lives. They don't want to take accountability or responsibility on the stuff that's hurting them or holding them back. And the other partner is all about growth and having a positive mind frame about life and compassion and forgiveness. How do you navigate that when one wants to grow and the other one is happy where they're at?

I mean, if, if the gulf is too big, it's kind of like, that's, that's going to be really hard. If, you know, if you, if you really think you have that much further go and they don't, You know, that's a very difficult situation that might call for ending the relationship. You know, however, what if this is an acute episode? You know, were they always like this? If so, if they were never wanting to improve, you were always wanting to improve, then maybe you made an error early on. If they've had a shift, then it's just maybe they're dealing with depression, maybe they're dealing with some problems, maybe they're feeling cynical about the relationship. That's where just the communication cycle of, okay, you weren't always like this, you are like this now, I'm not judging, I'm asking what's going on. So that we can both understand each other because they have some ideal version of themselves. They do have something they want to move towards, but maybe they feel like that's not possible or maybe they feel stuck right now. If it's not this terminal problem that's always been the case, then it's an issue of great, let me help you.

Gotcha.

Yeah.

What would you say in the research you did were the big flags, red flags for why this person probably won't be a great relationship partner for you long term. What are those big red flags that you think that everyone should be looking out for?

I mean, first and foremost is that issue of not communicating. And that includes vulnerability.

If they're not vulnerable, then this is probably not going to work out.

I mean, how do you, if somebody won't tell you what they want, what they need, what's wrong, you're never going to be able to fix it. you know, it's like that communication becomes essential. You know, it doesn't have to happen all the time, everything about everything, but it's like getting to know what they want, where they're going and how that aligns with what you go. If you're not communicating, it's almost inevitably going to spiral down. But that's something we can alleviate. It's like that's something people can work on to talk and open up. It's not always easy, but, you know, Gottman talked about his four the four things that were the harbingers of divorce. You know, he talked about the issue of criticism, stonewalling, defensiveness, and contempt. And what's interesting is those are all dynamics within conversations. You can often bridge the gap. If, you know, when you're vetting people, you can often bridge a gap about what we're going, what we want. But if you're behaving in this bad way, criticism, you're blaming their personality. Defensiveness, you always respond to them. They raise an issue and then you raise it over escalating, stonewalling. Somebody raises something, you just immediately shut down in contempt. You see your partner as on a lower plane than you. These were the biggest things that predicted divorce. And it's not an issue of some huge gap or some difference. It was an issue of how you handled things. just by handling things more respectfully and compassionately.

That's it.

It got so much.

It's the way you handled it.

Yeah.

Not that, you know, you didn't align and everything, but it's how you communicated in the discomfort is what it sounds like.

You got to stay in the pocket. You got to you got to deal with those difficulties. Yeah.

Oh, man. What's the what's your thoughts on insecurities and jealousies in an intimate relationship? Is it good to have insecurity and be jealous? or is it more harmful to the relationship long term when someone is insecure and jealous?

This is such a fascinating question because I wish there was a one word simple answer. And the thing is there isn't. Because first and foremost, the purpose of jealousy and insecurity in a relationship is a positive one. When they took a group of people and they looked at who were dating and they measure them on levels of jealousy. Then they checked back in four years later, some of them had split them up, some of them had stayed together. It was the people who felt somewhat more jealous who stuck together.

Come on.

The purpose of jealousy seems to be to protect the relationship. Really? Now, obviously at extreme ends this can be pathological, but if somebody doesn't seem to care at all and doesn't seem to do anything to defend the relationship, That's not a great sign either. So we're looking at a mid-range. We're looking at a healthy amount where, hey, that sounds, this seems like a negative. I don't want the relationship to end. I want to protect it. I choose investment. Too much if this person is perpetually concerned that everything is a negative. This can be someone who's dealing with more serious issues.

What about the relationships that have lasted 30, 40 years that are super happy?

Still.

Yeah. Or are they jealous or is it more of like, I'm investing ways to protect the relationships, growth and fulfillment and bond without being insecure and jealous that you're going off with your girlfriends or guy friends.

Yeah.

What, what are those?

You, when you look at people who have been hap in happy marriages for decades, it, it's crazy. It's, it, this is a small portion of people, but some people, when they're put in an MRI scanner, Their brains look, 40 years later, look like people who are newly in love. Really? Yeah. And it's actually better because when you look at people who are newly in love, there's these positive emotions, brain chemicals, throwing off sparks.

It's healing. They call it sexual healing. It's like this feeling, yeah.

It is comparable to amphetamines. They are feeling great, but there's also the anxiety because we're always a little bit scared.

What if I lose it? What if it's gone?

When you look at people who are so in love decades later, it's all positives without the anxiety.

How do you get to a place of all positives without stress and anxiety in an intimate relationship?

I mean, part of that is the issue of ongoing communication, where it's like something comes up, we deal with it. When Gottman looked at what produced a great marriage, he found it was five to one. Five positives for every one negative. But here was the interesting thing, because that's we've heard that a few times. What's fascinating is if you get down to like one to one, not good, one good for every bad, that's headed for a divorce. 13 to 1 was also bad. 13 goods for one, 13 goods for every bad was also bad, because what that meant was somebody's not speaking up. Somebody is having issues, is having concerns.

And they're just not collecting their and.

They'Re letting it build up.

Well, this is why, I mean, I don't know. I'm trying to figure out, I'm trying to self-analyze myself because as I told my partner Martha, I was like, listen, there's nothing you can do that will make me upset at you. I said this a year ago when we first started dating. Now, I may be frustrated or confused or something like that or like, huh, I didn't like that. Let's talk about it. But for me to get upset, It means there's something that I'm a prisoner to. I'm a prisoner to you doing something and I react to it. That means it's something I got to work on. It's something I got to process and learn to heal and move through so I'm not triggered. I may not like something but reacting with anger is more about me than what you do. If you do something out of integrity that may be harmful for the relationship, we get to communicate it and then make a decision on what's going to happen but me getting anger Angry is about me and the things I need to work on. That's at least my perspective. And that's why I said I will do consistent coaching and therapy every two weeks to improve myself. And we'll do it together so that we can talk through these things as opposed to waiting or just neglecting it. It's like a consistent communication like you said. But the 13 to 1, I feel like we're 13 to 1 or maybe more because we are in consistent conversation about maybe something that's unsettling. She does a really good job of communicating and saying, listen, hey, I want to talk to you about something. You didn't do anything wrong, but I just want to be able to talk about this. And I'm like, okay, cool. I don't need to be defensive. You're not attacking me. And let's address it. So it doesn't feel like a bad thing. It's just more like a, oh, we're communicating and there's some messiness, but let's get through it.

And then we come together stronger. Yeah, well, you're bleeding off all of the CBT. I mean, you're doing a great job of keeping the line out of the red. I mean, it's like with that ongoing communication. And, I mean, you are basically practicing CBT in yourself. Cognitive behavioral therapy, most proven, most demonstrated method, is that issue of it's that basically the adversity is not what causes our emotions. our beliefs are what causes our emotions. And when we have unrealistic, irrational beliefs, this should never happen. Nobody should treat me like this. Alvin, you can't control that. I can't control how other people act. I can't control how the world deals with me. So that issue of when you say, Hey, okay, my belief, this does happen. People do do this. These things do occur. You're having rational assumptions about the world and your feelings are never getting out of control.

-Right. It's never like too crazy high or too crazy low. It's like you might have some movement, but it's like trying to have a conscious rational thought.

Yeah.

And not take everything so personally. It never gets to the level of anger.

It stays at, like, rational disappointment. Yeah. Yeah.

Or I feel uncomfortable. I didn't like this feeling.

Yeah. But I don't need to explode on someone. Oh, yeah. You're not demanding that the universe give you what you want.

You have realistic preferences.

I would prefer this.

Yeah. But I'm not insisting that. And so let's communicate about it. Right.

Yeah.

It's interesting. It was sad. Something came up. I can't remember what you were just saying, but it came up to me that like, you know, one day every relationship ends in this physical world, right? It's like, and I told Martha, my girlfriend early on, I go, you know, isn't it sad that one day I'm gonna be at your funeral or you're gonna be at mine? It's most likely what's gonna happen.

Yeah.

You know, if we're together for, you know, a long period of time, and I hope we are, that's probably what's going to happen. And it's sad to think about that you're going to be at the funeral of the person you care about the most. It's really sad to think about, but it brings me back into now and how can I appreciate what we're creating together right now the most? Make the most of it. Have great time. Let things go that don't matter that much. Communicate, you're not to suppress those things, but let them go or communicate through it to then align on what do we value, what are our agreements so that we're on the same team. And I think that perspective has given me a beautiful gift of appreciation. And how important is appreciation, gratitude, and acknowledging your partner in an intimate relationship?

I mean, beyond, I mean, first and foremost, you know, one of the most look at all the happiness research. Gratitude is like the tactic number one of like one of because just that issue. It's amazing because not only is that issue of you're you're not taking things for granted. You're appreciating them. You're realizing that the world could have been differently, you know, but so many other things when we focus on that money, that thing, that achievement, it's amazing that gratitude is just a perspective shift. It doesn't cost anything.

Simple shift.

It doesn't cost anything. We just have to take the time to realize how much worse could things have been. It didn't have to go this way. And one of the things, most of this is work by Martin Seligman at University of Pennsylvania, is that not only does gratitude help us, but one of the most powerful things we can do to make someone else happy is what he calls a gratitude visit, which is schedule a time with somebody, maybe it's your partner, you schedule some time and beforehand you write up like a single page letter and just tell them all the wonderful things that they've done for you and how much it's impacted you and how much it's changed you and how much you appreciate it. You schedule a time, you don't tell them what's going to transpire, you sit down and you read the letter to them. First off, you better have tissues because most people cry. And second off, this has been shown to increase the other person's happiness for months. afterwards. How often do we feel like people aren't supporting us, don't think about us, don't appreciate us, to sit down and schedule a time and make it all about them, to have prepared, to have made a list. How flattering is that and how great is that to give someone else that gift? It is one of the most powerful happiness exercises that we have for both people is exactly what you said. to deliberately, consciously show gratitude that way.

You know, this is something that we've been doing in our relationship every night together. We share three things we're grateful for before we go to bed.

Yeah.

And usually a couple of them are geared towards each other, right? It's like, I'm so grateful for you for doing this, and I appreciate you for this. And it just, man, it just creates so much harmony in the relationship. Now, I'm sure people listening or watching might be saying, well, that's easy to do in the first year, you know, but wait till you have, everyone says, wait till you have kids, wait till you're busier, wait till this. And I get it, I'm not saying there's not new challenges or adversity to face, but I think if this is not the baseline, what you're creating, before more challenges come up, it's gonna be harder when there's challenges when you have less sleep, when you're overworked or overwhelmed because of distractions or because big responsibilities or health crises, I get it. And that's why I think it's so important in the beginning of a relationship to set the deep foundation with time, with vulnerability, like you said, and with these practices. I love this gratitude visit. You know, it's the giving the gift of gratitude to your partner, to your friends, and the connection and the bond you'll create because of that is powerful.

Absolutely. I think that's an amazing practice that you guys do. Building a habit together of cleaning the bathroom is great. Building a habit like this is even better because Shelly Gable at UCSB has done some really interesting counterintuitive research that basically shows for a lot of couples, how they celebrate is more important than how they fight. We think fighting bad that's going to destroy the relationship. Yeah, but it's like if you're just focused on bringing up to average, you know, you got to focus on the positive. You got to increase the positives. So when couples have a great time together, when they celebrate together, that's why some people occasionally stay in difficult relationships because even though there's bads, there's also some compensatory goods. Well, if we don't have the bad, but we add in the good, and she talks about that issue, In the formal terminology, they call it capitalization. Whereas you had a good day, tell me about it. This was great. Let me be the cheerleader. I am so happy for you. I am so excited for you.

Let's celebrate it.

That every day, if couples get together, how did your day go? And it's kind of like that capitalizing on those positives. You're doing a version of that where it's kind of what went well today? Here's the things I'm grateful for. When you capitalize on that, when you become the supporter, you're in their corner, You know, I am involved. I know what's going on. I'm supportive of the positive. I'm enthusiastic. I mean, that's what we all want.

That's really cool.

Yeah.

Maine, where life the way it should be transforms all who encounter its spectacular landscapes. Rugged coastlines, pine-scented trails, sandy beaches, sparkling lakes, and tranquil forests inspire you to reflect and make meaningful moments. They offer endless opportunities for adventure and exploration. Whether peddling or paddling, hiking or biking, Maine has more than enough outdoor spaces to make the most of long summer days. Relish in exquisite flavors harvested from the ocean and the rich soils of orchards and fields. Maine's makers are rooted in its heritage while boldly branching into new ways of thinking, doing, and being. Connect with its people in warm and authentic towns which beckon you to stroll art galleries and locally owned shops. of artists, writers, entrepreneurs, and craftspeople see the world anew. It's tempting to do it all when you visit, but take a beat and a breath. Get a feel for the time and tempo of Maine. Simple pleasures, scenic adventures, where every route is the scenic one. Discover more at visitmaine.com They're saving for.

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This is one of those areas that's mixed because we hear so many negatives and it's, you know, it can be good, it can be bad. What it comes down to is we still need face-to-face contact. When you look at cancer support groups, there are some cancer support groups that are face-to-face, there are some that are virtual. When you look at the virtual groups, there's a double-digit percentage often of these people in cancer support groups who are feeling clinically depressed. When you look at the face-to-face groups.

The level of clinical depression is often zero.

They're less depressed. They might be sad from sickness.

But not debilitating.

Yeah. That face-to-face. They have some hope. They have more connection. They have community.

Yeah.

Interesting. We need an element of face-to-face. And that issue of social media, hey, if somebody's a close friend, they live 3,000 miles away, maybe the DM is the easiest way for you to coordinate.

Sure.

But the question to be asking is, am I using social media in order to orchestrate and facilitate face-to-face deep connections, or am I using it to replace them, to cannibalize them? That's really the critical thing. if you use any form of social media to organize a face to face get together, it's it's a positive. No doubt. If they're 3000 miles away, you know, hey, this is what we got until the next time we can connect face to face. But when it starts cannibalizing it, when it's too difficult, I don't want to get off the couch. I don't. When it becomes a replacement, that's where it can become really difficult. That's where it can become problematic. We want to make sure that we're leveraging it in order to get to face to face to get to those deeper connections because there's a lot of things we're going to say face to face, we're going to explore face to face that we're never going to do via text.

And what about when it's an intimate relationship and people are using social media, what are the do's and don'ts of using social media to either bond the intimate relationship more or that cause stress in an intimate relationship?

There, the critical aspect in terms of an intimate relationship is Don't keep secrets. Because there's one book that was written by a former divorce lawyer and he talked about how many of his cases were started by Facebook. Don't be communicating or communicating in a way that you would not feel comfortable sharing with your partner. Don't keep secrets. You can communicate with an ex if your partner knows about that, is cool with it, if you would feel comfortable showing them the messages. There's not a problem. Once you're keeping secrets and saying things you shouldn't be saying and you're concerned, if you're concerned that they might see those messages, then you might want to think twice.

Yeah, don't engage.

Exactly.

That's smart. Or keep it like prayer hands, you know, just like a simple response.

One emoji no more.

Yeah, that's it. Just like thumbs up, you know, just more of a neutral communication. I love this. I want to go back to kind of the beginning and bring it full circle. You mentioned about how the relationships that are happy, they don't maybe have traditional roles from society that they live up to, but they create their own roles is what I think I heard you say. How important is it with masculine and feminine energy?

Yeah.

To have a certain type of role and responsibility? Is it okay for one party to be doing a lot more of the heavy lifting in a relationship and the other one less? Is it better for both parties to say, okay, here's my share of the effort and energy that I'm going to work on for logistics and house and money and food and all these other things, kids, and the other one have their kind of responsibilities and roles. How does it really work? Because it seems like now people can do anything they want. They can say anything they want. They can change anything they want at any moment. Is that too confusing for a relationship without the stability of roles and responsibilities that are both agreed upon?

Yeah, this is why it's so hard. This is why it's so hard. But the thing is, again, it comes down to the assumptions. you know, if there aren't clear defaults, if you're not taking standard rules, the first thing to remember is that as long as everybody is honest and forthright, then fairness is not an issue. As long as everybody's honest and forthright. If somebody wants to do more of this, they enjoy it. That's fine. If they don't feel like, hey, we need to be sharing this and they're straightforward about it, need to talk, need to have a conversation. Because it's not that issue. There is no default fairness. There's how much do you feel comfortable with? What value do they bring? What do you need? Because once we get so tied up into fair, we all have irrational wants. We all have things that contradict each other. But we can't resolve that until we talk about it. Because some things that feel so big to you can feel small to your partner and vice versa. Yes. There are some things you you'd be happy to do it. It's no big deal. But they think it's a big lift. They think it's a big ask. It's really putting it out there because once you do something more akin to what you did, where it's like you said, we're gonna go to therapy, we're gonna talk about all these things. I don't think there was probably a lot left. Things are gonna change. You know, software updates.

Sure, sure.

But it's like once you put it out there, it's like, okay, I understand. this is mine, that's yours, these might change. But I think a lot of people are afraid that's going to cause conflict, so they don't want to talk about it, so they nod their head and that compounds and that's not good. That's not good. If you want the happiest relationships that we have today, it is an issue of just getting it all out there and making it clear even if it's scary and ugly.

Isn't that true? Yeah, getting it all out, not hiding anything until after you're married and then saying, okay, well here's what I really want. Then you're like, oh man.

Well, yeah. Then you're going to be focused on changing the other person and that's not going to be good.

This is powerful stuff, man. Play well with others. The surprising science behind why everything you know about relationships is mostly wrong. I'm curious, I want people to get the book. I want them to follow you. You have an amazing newsletter as well. What's the main place we can go to for the newsletter and you personally on social media?

Yeah, URL on my blog is a little tricky. So, people go to ericbarker.org, E-R-I-C-B-A-R-K-E-R dot org.

That'll take them to the site.

That'll take them to my website. And yeah, my newsletter comes out weekly. I'm always looking at the latest research on how we can be better.

That's amazing. What would you say are the the biggest, I don't know if Gottman or someone else said this, what are the, besides the four horsemen, what are the biggest topics that cause the most stress that potentially end a relationship or a marriage? The topic of money, the topic of how to raise kids, religion, families, like how families are involved in the relationship, and I guess sex.

Yeah.

Which of those are, you know, cause more conflict and divorce than the rest of them? Would you say, are they all kind of equal?

Finances is usually number one.

Why do you think money is such a big problem in relationships?

I mean, first and foremost, it's because it's that quantification of values where it's just like you're seeing First off, I mean, obviously people need money in order to live. So that seems like a big threat. The other things can be worked out, you know, but when you see that your partner ideas on what is important and money is a measure of what's important are completely misaligned with yours, it can create an enormous amount of stress. You know, you really see that it can feel like somebody doesn't respect if you're the breadwinner, it feels like somebody respect your efforts. Or if you're not the breadwinner, it can feel like somebody else is not doing their share to keep this safe and stable. So for both sides, that issue of money can be really challenging because it is an existential threat to another relationship with your life.

To livelihood, to staying alive. I'm so excited about this. I want people to get the book. A lot of good science and research in here about how to shift your thinking around relationships, not only intimate relationships, but friends, family, colleagues as well in business. So make sure you guys pick up a copy of the book, check out your newsletter as well. Couple of final questions. This is called the Three Truths.

I'm not sure if I asked you this last time.

Okay. Hypothetical scenario. Imagine it's your last day on earth, many years away. You live as long as you want to live. You accomplish everything that you want to do. you live a happy life, but for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your work with you to the next place. So no one has access to this book, this podcast, or anything you've ever written or create in the future. But you get to leave behind three lessons to the world, three things you know to be true from all experiences in life. What would be those three truths for you to leave behind?

Do more, not less. you don't want to regret things. Number two is show gratitude. You know, it's the most powerful way to feel happy. And number three, nine times out of ten, you won't go wrong with compassion.

That's beautiful, man.

That's probably what it is.

Before I ask the final question, Eric, I want to acknowledge you and express gratitude for the way you continually dive into research to find solutions for us. You know, you're obcessive about how to improve our lives. And this book on relationships is really powerful because people are suffering and struggling a lot in their relationships right now. It's confusing, like you said. There's a lot of dynamics and just understanding people and understanding yourself. So I really acknowledge you for spending years on this research, packaging it in a way so we can understand it and start applying this in our own lives. It's really powerful, man.

Thank you.

You're welcome. And my final question, what's your definition of greatness?

My definition of greatness, a feeling of meaning in collaboration with others. Like when I feel my life is not happy in the moment, but I feel like I'm doing something meaningful and it's creating a feeling of belonging. That's one of the things I talk about in the book, is that issue that what most creates a feeling of meaning, is a feeling of belonging. When I feel meaning in life and it has to do with connecting to others, like in the end, that's, that's, you're not gonna do better than that. Yeah. There you go. Eric.

Thanks, brother.

Appreciate it, man.

Thanks, man. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with with a friend and subscribe over on Apple podcast as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. I'm Katie Nolan and I have a.

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