The Secret to Effortless Productivity & Overcoming Overwhelm w/Greg McKeown EP 1102

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And it rocks until you have to manage it all. Which is where Capital One comes in. Capital One credit cardholders can easily track, block or cancel reoccurring charges right from the Capital One mobile app at no additional cost. With one sign in, you can manage all your subscriptions all in one place. Learn more@Capital1.com Subscriptions terms and conditions apply. This is episode number 1102 with New York Times bestselling author Greg McEwen. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur and and each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. John Carmax said, focus is a matter of deciding what things you're not going to do. And Leo Tolstoy said, there is no greatness where there is not simplicity, simplicity, goodness and truth. My guest today is Greg McEwen, and Greg is a speaker, a New York Times bestselling author, and host of the podcast what's Essential. His work has been covered by the New York Times, Fortune and Inc. And he's previously wrote the New York Times bestselling book Essentialism the Disciplined Pursuit of Less, which has sold more than a million copies worldwide. He's now written a new book called Effortless Make It Easier to Do what Matters Most and In this episode we discuss the simple and surprising keys for for a productive life, the five questions to ask yourself before starting a new project, how to stop beating ourselves up for relaxing more often in our lives, and the two questions that change the course of Greg's life. If you're inspired by this, if this helps you become more effortless in your goal setting and accomplishing your goals and in your life overall, then make sure to share this with a friend. Post it on social media, text a friend. You can use the link lewishouse.com 1102 or you can just copy and paste this link wherever you are listening to it. And if this is your first time here at the School of Greatness, then welcome. We have some of the most incredible minds in the world here to share with you how to unlock your inner greatness. So click that subscribe button right now on Apple Podcast. Leave a rating and review of the part you enjoyed most about this episode as well. Okay, in just a moment, the one and only Greg McEwen nothing gets me more motivated during a workout than some great pump up music, an upbeat instructor, and a challenge. With world class instructors, curated music, and endless fitness variety, Peloton has created an unmatched fitness experience to keep you motivated workout after workout. I'm personally a big fan of instructor Ali Love. She has an incredible energy that keeps me pumped up and awesome music to go along with her Peloton workouts. 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Welcome back, everyone, to School of Greenness podcast. Very excited about our guest. Greg McEwen is in the house. My man.

Good to see. Good to see you too.

You have an amazing book out right now called Effortless and a great podcast that people should check out called what's Essential podcast. They can get the book and subscribe to the podcast there. You're on the tail of a massive book launch previously that did incredibly well and the world is learned about a lot of people in my community are aware of. And now you have this book about Effortless and I'm curious. It seems like in a world of burnout culture, hustle and grind culture, that there isn't a lot of effortlessness happening in the world. It's more work as hard as you can, grind it out and hustle. Because hard work is the key to success. You hear a lot of great athletes say, how did you get here? And they had to work hard. They had to put in hours and hours every day in order to master their skill to be the best at what they were had to. So is there a way to create effortlessness when you also need to work hard and be diligent in your practice and all these things? Or do we not have to work hard and it can be effortless in accomplishing what we want?

Yeah. Well, Look, I mean, to me, essentialism was about rethinking prioritization, what really matters and figuring out what is essential. Effortless is a cousin to that. And that's about rethinking simplification, which is that sometimes we just make getting great results, breaking through to the next level harder than it needs to be. So it's not saying, hey, you should never work and you should never work hard and you should never put an effort. I believe that you're supposed to put in effort. The point is if you can't work any harder, you've got to find an easier path. And yet in a grind culture, sometimes people start to get burned out and their answer is push even harder. Rather than think different, think smarter, find.

An alternative route rather than take pause, reflect, have a better strategy. It's more just go hard, hard, hard, spend more time, more hours on the thing as opposed to re evaluate simplification.

Yeah.

How can we do it more effortlessly in a simplified version? Not just hard. Push, push, push.

One of the things I think that we can do is just, well, the book structure, the model is to have an effortless state, like three concentric circles. Effortless state, effortless action than effortless results. Right. And that's sort of like three books in one. Each of them can make your life and the results you get easier to get. You want to first remove all the complexity in your mind, in your heart, that makes life more frustrating than it ought to be. Just talking with Tim Ferriss and I asked him a question about this. I said, look, how much of your mental and emotional energy have you given on stuff that, you know, holding grudges, being angry, stuff that just got in the way of your success. And he said, look, from age 15 to 30, he said probably 60 to 70% of my energy was spent on that.

On more than angry at what? Himself, Other people.

Other people, the world, anything and awful things that happened to him that he was angry about from when he was young. He's talked about this publicly now of abuse that he'd been through and so on. But either way, he's making his life is more burdened than it needs to be because he's spending so much of his cycles on this stuff that isn't actually propelling him forward or helping him.

Achieve his thought process, his energy on those things. Right?

Yeah.

Spending a lot of that time.

That's right. Just your mind, what you're processing, how you're feeling is just burdened, burning energy. Burning energy instead of getting you going forward. Yes. And so Simplifying your state, I think is a. Is a huge return on investment. If you can let go of a grudge, if you can let go of something that you keep on, you know, draining you, then you have. There's just more of you on offer. And that's not through grinding effort. That's through just removing burdens. You don't have to be hauling up the mountain at all.

Right.

You know, number two area is effortless action.

That's effortless state.

The first area, effortless state. So you're simplifying all of your. Basically all of that clutter that's in your mind. So it makes it easier to focus.

On what matters before we get to the second ring. How do people learn to let go of grudges?

Yeah.

How do they let go of resentment, anger, frustration about others and about the things they've done? And that's really hard to do. You seem like just get a clear mind. But, you know, people have been trying to figure that out for a long time.

Yeah.

So how do we. How did you learn how to do that?

Well, one of the things that I've learned is that specifically on grudges, is that we need to learn, like we have to ask an unusual question about grudges. And that is, what did we hire the Grudge to do? As Clayton Christensen says, with any product or service that you have, no one wants a six, you know, a six inch drill bit. What they want is a six inch hole. Right. There's a reason that you're hiring that product or service. Well, you can do the same with grudges. Every grudge we hold, we hold for a reason. We've hired the Grudge to do something for us. Maybe we hire the Grudge to make us feel powerful. See, I am one up. I'm above that person. See, they did this bad thing. I'm holding onto that. See, I'll show that I'm superior. We hold onto it for a sense of superiority. Or maybe we hold on it because we like that we get to tell a story of being a victim and people go, oh, yes, we get sympathy for doing it. Well, we hire grudges to do certain jobs. And what I think is that if we simply evaluate grudges, like we say, how are you doing in your job performance for me? Are you actually protecting me? Are you actually making me powerful? Are you actually getting people to build a stronger relationship with me? Or if you evaluate them and in the book there's a section specifically, one by one, you can do this where you say, well, you actually find. Well, actually, it's not making me powerful. It makes me more vulnerable. It makes me vulnerable with everyone because I'm carrying this wound still and not letting it heal. Is it helping me to build relationships?

No.

If you pay attention, you notice that when you tell these stories, you kind of have to find new people to tell them to because people get bored of it.

Right.

And so you're not building deeper trust relationships. You're actually kind of wearing them out along the way. And you can go one by one to suddenly discover that this is like a bad employee. We have grudges. Like, you've hired them to do this. They aren't doing any of those things. They're using you. Grudges use you. They burn you up, they waste you out, they make you weaker. And so just through this process, you start to find, like, I'm ready to fire my grudges, ready to be free of it so that I can actually recuperate, whatever the percentage is.60 to 70% with Tim, maybe it's different for other people. Get all of that back and we can start putting that into the stuff we really wanted to do in the first place.

Yeah. Can you imagine? There's been different stages of my life where I felt like 10 out of 10 of positivity, of freedom of my thoughts from holding grudges or resentments or angers, and you feel like you're flying. And there have been many years in my life, many years, too many years where I've held on to resentment, anger, frustration, a lack of forgiving other people, where you feel like you're at a six or seven, maybe you get to an eight for a moment, but then something triggers you and you're back into anger frustration mode. And that really pulls me back into feeling tired, exhausted, drained and burnt out. Typically not from the effort I put into my craft, but in the effort I put into my mind thinking about the things I don't like.

Yeah, you've just. You have basically made the case for why effortless state is the first part of the effortless model. That's it exactly right. You used. Think of the language you used. You feel like you're flying.

Yes.

Is that not just another metaphor for effortless?

Yeah.

I mean, what would be more effortless than I'm flying? That's the idea. That's why even though you would never think of forgiveness as a productivity hack, like maybe no one's ever written that, you know, the productivity hacks you need so true. Is to forgive people in your life. And yet, what else can you call it? If you could get back that much energy, that much of your own light and ability and capability, it's the best rebate available. There's a story that I came across in the research that I love of a man who was productive in his community, and then one day he saw what he thought was a piece of string on the ground, and it was a piece of string. He gets it. He's like, oh, I can put that to use. Puts it in his pocket. On that same day, in the marketplace, someone else had lost a wallet and lost some money, and they thought that they had seen him pick up the wallet and take it, accused him of it publicly. There was no way for him to prove his innocence. And so the word went out, this person has acted dishonestly, dishonorably, and so on. Now, at this point in the story, he has a choice. He can't prove his innocence, but he could have, in this moment, let go of the accusation of the harsh judgment, and he would have suddenly had all that energy back to be able to get back onto, well, what can I do something about? How can I serve? How can I make a contribution? How can I be successful again? But he doesn't. He gets fixated on it. Everywhere he goes, he talks about it. He nurses the grudge. He explains, it's a piece of string. Don't you see? It was wrong. A piece of string. A piece of string. People started laughing about this guy. All he ever wants to do talk about is a piece of string, and it makes him ill. And on his deathbed, final words of the story, you know, a little piece of string, A little piece of string. This is how the story goes. Now, that is a fictionalized account, but it. It illustrates the point of, where are you putting your mental energies? If we put him on grudges, if we put them on things that have happened we wish they hadn't happened, or even on our own mistakes where we go, I wish I'd been different. And we're beating ourselves up for past mistakes. We're just putting tons of effort onto things that will exhaust us and burn us out instead of moving forward to the things that really matter.

So would you say that the things in our minds will hold us back from an effortless state and getting the actions and the results we want is the things in our mind first?

Yes, definitely. There's a little story about that where I was staring at myself dressed head to toe in a stormtrooper costume.

Yeah.

And I mean, I'm in A, you know, I'm in a, in a store of Halloween. This is like a, this is expensive suit. It's like a movie quality stormtrooper outfit. And as I'm staring back at myself in the mirror, like, should I buy this? I'm like, how am I even here? Like, What? Why? For 30 years, without realizing it, I'd had this goal of buying a stormtrooper costume. Yeah. So when I reflect on it, it goes back to like when Return of the Jedi comes out and my older brother says, oh, wouldn't it be cool to have a movie quality suit? You know, wouldn't that be great? And I'm like this, you know, whatever 10 year old kid just amazed by this. Like, yes, that would be cool. Forget about it entirely. But here we are 30 years later, still pursuing that goal. It's still a part of me has been working on achieving this. Well, no part of me wanted that costume. I'm like, why am I even, what am I even doing here? Let's get out of this. I don't want this costume. And it became like a shorthand. My wife will say to me now, like, if I'm pursuing something that she's like, I don't know, that has a certain vibe about it, she'll be like, is this a stormtrooper? And I think you can use that for goals that no longer serve you, but also for grudges that no longer serve you. Could be relationships that no longer serve you. Could be any mental clutter, any assumptions that are simply like, they were true to a point, but they don't serve you now. And one of those, one of those stormtroopers, I think, is the idea that any problem can be solved by working harder. That alone is a really limiting idea. It'll get you only to here, it won't get you to there. So it's a good principle as far as it goes. But then we need to invert that question. Instead of say, how can I work harder? We say, look, is there a more effortless way of doing this? And so as you rid your mind of this old paradigm, you open yourself up to a new option, a new question. And suddenly, I mean, I almost think it's almost like magic. There's so many cool options. Once you're free of the idea that anything worth doing has to be exhaustingly difficult.

Yeah. What was the thought process that stuck in your mind the longest? That was the hardest to let go of that when you let go of it, life became more effortless, whether it be in your relationships or Your career or whatever it might be.

Yeah. I mean, one answer to that question is. Well, I'll give you one answer though, which is that the work at what's essential needs to kind of be hard drudgery. And then you've got separate to that play and fun, and that those two things are just two different categories. They don't have to be, but we often divide them up. And so we just have the fun and the play separate. But what if the essential things can be the fun things? What if you can make the things that used to seem like drudgery into, like, fun rituals?

Yeah. How do you make cleaning your laundry or mopping the floor or cleaning the toilet a fun, enjoyable experience or.

Which is a specific example in my family, cleaning up after dinner. Yeah. So we, we have pretty good rituals around the actual meal time. Like, we actually eat together. I got four kids and my wife and I, we will do like, you know, we'll do toasts for each other at the end of each day and like, what's gone right today. And we have some good rituals around this. But as soon as the dinner is over, my kids are just like, gone.

They're like, see.

Like, they're like ninjas, man. They are just gone. It's like so silent and like, where did they all go? Then I have the unenviable task of like, come back and pulling them all back. Where did you all go? And oh, no, I've got homework. And it's hard to argue with that. Go to the bathroom. Okay, that's hard to argue. And it's just this cat and mouse game to get them back in. So I'm like, okay, how do we make it effortless?

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Quints.com Lewis and so we divide up the chores so everyone's got a certain part of it right. Many hands make light work and we trained them on each piece. And I'm like, okay, we're gonna set this up. We wrote it all down on a piece of paper where everyone can see it. Okay, ready to start. What happens? Nothing.

Chaos.

It is back to the same. They're gone. The next day, they're gone like ninjas again. And it wasn't until my eldest daughter, Grace added just a particular kind of music to the occasion that it became like karaoke. It was like classic Disney tracks. It was. I mean, she's a teenager, she's just turned 18 now. But it's just like sing along stuff that you can't not sing to all kinds of music. And it turned it into just like a little party. And even now we'll start to do it. We'll have the same problems. As soon as someone puts on the right music, you all do it. You play and, and, and it's like that now. In fact, I didn't think people would believe me, but the other day I wasn't even helping them. Music got put on. Everyone's doing it. I grabbed like 5 seconds of video and put it on Instagram just to like prove like. It really is like that now. So the idea is, one of the ideas that's hard to let go of is that is that essential stuff has to be the drudgery. You know, the important stuff is just hard work. Some things are just hard and then there's fun stuff and that's play over here. But what if you make it? What if you combine those. What if you make essential stuff enjoyable? Well, then it becomes, relatively speaking, endless.

And I would add into that and say if you don't make the essential stuff enjoyable, then you will be burnt out.

Yeah.

Even if it starts out as like fun, like practice and sports. For me, there are many different sports that I played growing up and some of them I burnt out on because it came. Started to become a job where it was only like, you got to show up to practice, you got to work hard. This is a business mentality now. And it kind of lost the idea of having fun.

Yeah.

When we're playing a game. But it's like the business of the game.

Right. And Right.

You almost have to. So what could start out as really fun could turn into drudgery.

Right.

And what could be like this thing that I don't like could be this incredibly fun experience.

Yeah.

Based on the parameters you create for yourself. I was a truck driver for many months. I got paid $250 a week as a truck driver when I was about 22, 23 years old, and I remember being like, this is miserable. This was not fun. This was not, you know, it's essential to just like, for food for the week. It was not like the path of my life, but it was a season of my life. And I remember saying, okay, I have an opportunity here. Like, this is going to be happening for many months. I can either be in misery and pain for six hours a day driving a truck.

Right.

Or I can make the most of it. And I downloaded CD with salsa songs and I started visualizing myself while watching the road, but visualizing myself salsa dancing, because I was learning how to salsa dance at that time.

Wow.

So I would imagine myself doing the moves and the dance and the steps and everything. And it made the time fly and made it more enjoyable.

Right.

I would also sing songs as well and just see, like, okay, how can I make this fun even if people are looking at me like I'm crazy singing along to myself. But that made it more enjoyable where it wasn't like, I have to go to work and do this thing. But I had a great time and time flew.

I love what you're saying. And it really is sort of a lot of what I mean when I say effortless state. Is it like, which is there's nothing so hard that complaining, whining about it won't make it harder. So some things in life, once you decide I'm going to do this thing, I'm dealing with this. This is a responsibility that's important to me. I'm taking on. Now you just have to decide, do I want to do it the hard way or the easier way?

Yeah, exactly. What happens when we complain and why do we complain so much?

You know, I searched at one point when I was doing this research for, like, just what are the easiest things to do in the world? Like, just off the cuff, like, what are the answers? And I remember that one of the first answers that people really agreed on was, complaining is the easiest thing to do.

Wow.

So I thought that was very interesting. And I took on a little exercise myself with this. And I was like, okay, well, that's not a great state to be in. A complaining state is going to limit my creativity. It's going to make it harder for me to achieve. It's going to be harder for me to attract good talent and all the rest of it. So I said, okay. Every time I complain, I'm going to say something I'm grateful for.

I read this in the book. I like this strategy.

Well, here's the thing.

A really good strategy.

Well, I like that you like it. What I noticed about it was that it didn't work. Well, what I noticed is not that it didn't work. I realized that I complained a lot more than I realized.

Right. I read that, too, is how much were you complaining a day when you started that strategy?

I don't know if there's a number for it, but I just found I would walk into a room and I'd be complaining. I'd see my wife and, oh, how you doing? Well, you know, this thing was a bit of a drag. That meeting took longer than I thought. And I'm like, why are you saying this? It's not even how you feel about your life. There's so many good things happening. But for some reason, I was in a habit of just starting with a complaint. You see, your kids, there's always something to complain about. Well, why are you on that? Why aren't you doing this? Why haven't you cleared this thing up? There's an endless variety of complaints. What I noticed was that the more I complained, the more there was to complain about. As soon as I introduced this new habit, what I was surprised by is how fast the state changed. Because you can't be grateful and complaining in the same moment. You can't be fearful and grateful in the same moment. You can't be angry and grateful in the same moment. I mean, it is a dynamic, powerful, catalytic thing. It's not just for too long. We think of gratitude as being like, well, that's a nice, mindful man. Be mindful and grateful over there. But when you go to the real stuff, that's not the real stuff. Gratitude is the real stuff. This is the way to be able to accelerate success in any area of your life. And it's instantly effective. So I found that as soon as I would say I was grateful, I could see people's eyes light up. Just. Even my kids. My wife just. It just brought a more positive feeling. So then we carry on with our kids. And I'm like, okay. My son Jack, one time, I'm like, he complained. And I'm like, okay, give me three things you're thankful for. He says this, I am so thankful that my dad wants to play this dumb game. After I say something I'm complaining about, says it just like that. We all laugh. It works. Even though he did it with the worst attitude ever. And by the time he's doing two and three, he's laughing and he's saying stuff, and it didn't matter. Gratitude Is that powerful. And so I think it's like the fastest way to get ourselves back into an effortless state. And I learned about it first in the extremity of a family crisis. I found that this thing would help even in the direst of circumstances.

Yeah, what crisis?

We moved into new neighborhood a few years ago. Pretty picturesque, beautiful neighborhood. You know, there's in nature, white picket fences. I mean, it's like lovely place. And our children seem to thrive. They're out, you know, especially one of my daughters is Eve. She's out naming chickens. I mean, yes, we have chickens, but also just up trees. She's barefoot everywhere. She's reading endlessly. I mean, she has thrived. Just can't be angry for more than like two seconds at a time. If she tries to, she'll burst out laughing. That's just who she is. Until she turned 14. And then she just was like taking longer to do her chores. She's not as talkative anymore and she's a little physically awkward. And we think, well, this is all pretty age appropriate behavior. 14, okay, fine. We don't think much of it. But then we take her to a physical therapy appointment, just normal. And the therapist pulls over my wife's side and says she failed a reflex test. And the whole point is you can't fail those, right? They're just basic health. And so the fact she didn't respond to it, he said that's normally kind of neurological.

Like the knee test where they hit.

You on the knee, basically there's a few different ones, but that's one of them. You can do, do the same with the feet and your toes curl up a certain direction and there's nothing you can do to stop that. That's what happens. But she wasn't responding in the way that she should have done to those. And so you don't have to be told twice, right? Like for real, you're like, okay, maybe what we've seen as being normal developmental behavior isn't at all. And we suddenly, I mean, we went to a neurologist immediately, but also just re examined her behavior. And what followed for the next several months was a complete discombobulation of her abilities. That's like taking someone perfectly healthy and just, I don't know, like just making them go super slow. So like instead of eating a meal in, I don't know, half an hour like everyone else, it's taking her hours. Instead of being able to write, you know, page a night easily and fast, it's taking her literally. I have it recorded two minutes to write her own name first. The whole right hand side of her body stops moving the same pace as left. Personality change. She just no emotion in her anymore. And all the while these neurologists, these lifelong neurologists cannot give us even the beginning of a diagnosis.

Wow.

So there's nothing. We're getting no information.

That's scary.

Yeah, I mean it's. What it is really is the stuff that agony is made of that is human suffering. That's in the category. There's worse stuff, but it's in the category of the worst stuff. And that really opened us up to this moment. I remember in my mind's eye seeing this like two paths ahead of us. And the first path was like the heavy hard path and the other one was the easier path. And you might say, well, it's obvious which one you should take. But actually it wasn't the temptation or even the inclination was the heavier path. What does that look like? Relentless research, night and day, all nighters. Every neurologist on the planet, every email you get from well intended people saying, well, maybe she has this. You study that problem, you talk of nothing else, you think of nothing else, you get obsessed about it. I mean, that's actually the path that we felt like leaning into.

Because you wanted to figure out the solution.

Yeah, because what's the problem?

What's the solution?

Yes, because of an assumption that says, look, the more important it is, it's such an important thing, you have to kill yourself to go do it. Or even just, even, just a path of even blaming. I mean, talk about holding grudges. We could have held grudges there. Why do these neurologists, they don't know anything. Why can't they know something? Why is it happening to Eve? She's innocent. This is unfair. This is wrong. I mean, there's a whole set of approaches, I think that we really were on the edge of doing. And then I had this sort of feeling one day, like among the reactions that we were having one was this idea, like, go and read this particular article. It's an article, it's a church article. It's by Gordon B. Hinckley and it's an article about optimism and thankfulness. And I started, I felt like really kind of guided to like listen or read to that every day. And I did almost every day for the next like four months. And what happened in that moment, really or not that that experience was that like, it was like my mind was being re engineered in the midst of this excruciating experience. There was this alternative path, there was a different way to do life that started to open up and it began with gratitude. We will be grateful, relentlessly grateful. Anything we can be grateful for, we're going to say it, we're going to say it out loud, we're going to say it to each other. We're going to catch people doing the right things. We're going to catch the neurologists doing the right things. Well, they're willing to meet with us. Thank goodness that they're willing to meet with us. That's a good thing. And what that did is it created almost instantly this kind of magical force at play. It meant that we were able to just stay optimistic when, you know you're getting sent emails every day almost from people saying, well, maybe she has this thing that's going to kill her, maybe she's going to have this thing. I mean, that's what you're getting all the time from well intended people. And it started opening us up to like, well, let's have joy through this. Let's get around the piano and sing together. We're going to still eat dinner together, we're still going to laugh together. We're still going to. And it just kept us positive and open and healthy. And our marriage didn't collapse, our family didn't collapse. The culture was actually positive. And I would say overall that the experience sometimes agonizing, sometimes tears, but overall I would say it was joy. I don't say that lightly. I know what it was, but I also know what happened as we took this alternative path. And you know, if it was a Disney story, I'd just say, well, what could out perfectly happily ever after. She got a series of treatment pretty miraculously that got her much better. But then the symptoms returned and we had to go through the whole cycle again from the beginning. And if we had taken that heavier, harder, just grinding effort, I think we'd have had nothing left of us either physically nothing, emotionally, nothing, mentally nothing. But also the culture of the family would have been so burned out. I think that's the stuff that breaks people. And instead the culture just thrived. It really worked. And so now, two years through this experience, she's gone through a whole nother set of treatment as of this conversation. She is, I would just describe her as back mentally back, physically back, emotionally, just back. She is back.

Congratulations. That's amazing.

Well, it is and it's a, you know, but it's something to be grateful about all the time for us. But also out of Those experiences really came the fire for the deed for this first, to save myself and my own family, to find what are the principles and practices that make doing what matters a little easier, a little more effortless, but also now then to write about it and to share it with others. And I think it comes about at a time that it has the power of relevancy. Because who isn't feeling a bit burned out right now? Who isn't feeling like, well, maybe I got good results, but through grinding effort, do I have another year in me of this now?

I'm exhausted.

We're exhausted. And so you've got these highly engaged, capable, driven people who are so scripted in the idea that the only path to greater success is through more hustle. Well, they're out of juice, so I guess they have to give up on their goals, right? No, there's an alternative path. There's a different way. There's a better way of doing. Life starts by getting this effortless state. The gratitude is a fast mover. And the reason the gratitude is so pivotal, I think, is because when we focus on what. When we focus on what we lack, we lose what we have. And when we focus on what we have, we gain what we lack.

Yeah. That's two full pages in your book.

Yeah.

Side by side.

Yeah.

I love that.

Yeah. It was a big part of the lesson that the Eve experience taught us.

Say it one more time.

When we focus on what we lack, we lose what we have. When we focus on what we have, we gain what we lack. And that goes on and on. And that's why it's at the core of the model, because as you get into that more grateful state, you cleanse out so much clutter, and you start to see the world differently. So effortless action starts to be more achievable. You start to build better relationships with the people around you. And really, if you had gun to my head, what's the most important thing in effortless? I actually think this is a pretty good contender for that because it creates an upward momentum. It creates a spiral of success that. That I think brings to you the results you want. I think you can't overdo this. I think if you are grateful in everything, you will attract exactly the things that you currently lack. You'll start to see opportunities that were always there, but you couldn't see them before. It's like the. You know, if you go fly fishing, which I have never done, but if you do, it's hard.

I've done it once. I did it once. And I couldn't catch anything.

It was hard.

Well, do you know about the hack? The. The. The. If you put on polarized sunglasses. You know about this? Okay, so if you put on polarized sunglasses when you go fly fishing means that, like, the water, it refracts the reflection of the water, the light on the water. So you can see under the water.

Huh.

That's. That's how it works. The way that the polarized sunglasses are vertical and whatever. So it means you can see the fish underneath, which makes it a little.

Yeah, towards them. Yeah.

You know where they are. And as a metaphor, I think gratitude is like that, that it allows you to see what's currently being hidden by grudges, complaining, criticizing, by old paradigms that don't serve you, old goals that no longer are interesting, actually. Interesting you, but they are controlling you. All of that gets in the way of seeing the opportunity that is really there. And as soon as you can rid yourself of that, you suddenly go, my goodness, there's so much here, there's so much more that's working on my behalf. There's so much in my life that I've been complaining about that actually was given to me. It was happening for me, not to me. And it just gets you into a state that's like, well, whatever the next challenge is, I'm in a better position to be able to handle it. For us, the next thing was the pandemic.

So you're prepared.

Yeah.

Well, your culture is prepared, your state is prepared, so you can deal with it with a different, better state than you otherwise would have done.

Yeah. It's interesting. You know, all roads go back to how we think about ourselves and about others and about the world and our thoughts and our perspective on different things. You know, when I went to India and studied meditation at a facility many years ago, four or five years ago now, they mentioned that there are two states, two human states, a beautiful state, and a suffering state. The suffering state is where we're holding onto the past. Resentful, angry, comparing all those different things. The beautiful state is gratitude. Wanting to support other people, seeing other people succeed, appreciation, those things. And any moment we're thinking about what we lack, we suffer.

That's right.

And any moment we think about what we are grateful for, we're in a more beautiful state. A peaceful state of being.

Yeah. And I want to build on that for a second. I just had Benjamin Hardy on the what's Essential podcast, and we were talking about this, and he summarized it this way. He said, are you in the gain or the gap. I love that phrase. If you're in the gap, you're looking at what you haven't achieved yet, how life isn't the way you want it to be, where you failed, you know what's ahead of you. If you're in. And basically he just says you can do it that way, but you will be unhappy. Yes, you can live that way.

If you're in the gap.

If you're in the gap of what's missing, what's missing, what you haven't achieved, who you haven't become. But if you move into the gain, that's what progress have I already made.

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I become so far? What did I used to be compared to now? I've become something better. If you can look at the gains you've made, he says, the difference is you simply will be happy in your journey.

Not only focusing on where I'm not, where I want to be, what's in between now and where I want to be, but think about everything I've become up until now.

That's right.

So you've got to Is it thinking about both? Is it thinking about, okay, I want to be here, but in order to get there, I've got to appreciate how far I've come where I'm at right now.

Well, I think for achievers, they will never, ever get rid of 100% of the gap, thinking, yeah, they're never going to do that.

How do I improve? How do I grow? How do I earn more? How do I achieve?

So we don't have to worry about that when we try to make these adjustments. We don't have to be like, well, what if I only ever thought about the gain and never thought about the gap? Like, whatever, that's never happening to me. It's never going to happen to you. We don't have to worry about that. The question is, could we spend a little more? What's the ratio? We spend a little more in the gain. And when we start to feel, when we start to feel miserable, well, you're going to find you're in the gap. So it's time to just take a pause, be a bit grateful. I need this as a sort of mental health practice. I write like what I'm grateful for at the end of the day, try and do each week, haven't done it each week through the pandemic. I used to have a routine for it started again recently out of a need. Not like, I am so enlightened, I must do this. It's if I don't do this, it is miserable.

I'm miserable.

So I'm gonna do it out of self preservation. But I find it like, I find it amazing, unbelievable sometimes what I have already Forgotten about in the day. I'm writing it, like literally.

What do you mean what you forgot about? Things you've done good or things that.

Suffered, Things that were good today that I've already forgotten. Moving on to the things because you're.

Comparing about something or you're lacking or I wish I had this or that person did this thing.

Exactly. So for me it is a therapeutic thing to each day. Just go, okay, what are you thankful for? Let's really think about it. Let's review the day. Sometimes there are amazing things that I have already just slipped from my memory. So we're just, I think, terribly forgetful creatures. And especially for achievement orientation, we're like so looking for the next achievement that we forget. Like, wow, let's take a moment, let's pause and enjoy the blessing of this great thing that happened today.

So what I'm hearing you say is the greatest keys to the highest level of productivity hacking.

Yeah.

Is forgiveness and gratitude.

Yeah.

Is there anything else that would go in there as the highest productivity hack?

I think inverting the question.

Okay.

Would go in there.

How would you invert it?

Well, it's just literally instead of. Well, most of the questions we ask sit in like the back of our head, like we're not aware of them. So we live out answers to, to questions we don't even know we're asking. Our brains like Google search and we're tapped. Somewhere along the line we said, okay, how can you work harder so you can achieve your goal? That's just back there somewhere. And now we keep having answers. Well, I guess I need to do more here because I've not got the result I want and I guess I need to do, you know, more hours on this issue and put more. We just, those are answers to a question and we're not aware of it. So we can invert that question into simply asking, how can I make this effortless? I was working with a manager. She's the kind of person, she's just like the kind of person who's watching this or listening to this. She was 4am in the morning photoshopping for a non profit thing she's doing the next day with a group of youth at her church. That's what she's doing at 4am why? Why is she doing that? Why? Well, she's the kind of person who doesn't even take lunch because she feels guilty.

Yeah.

That's too selfish. Because you see, if you believe, if you have the assumption that more work equals better results, if you believe that that's an absolute statement that somehow got ingrained in you. Then you'll act out all sorts of peculiar ways that are counterproductive. So I said, okay, just forget all that. Like, we're going to ask another question that's going to try and cleanse all of this. Just next time you're asked to do something, you just pause for a second to ask, how could this be effortless? So she's working at university. She's the manager in the administration. She gets a professor who calls her and says, look, I want you to, you know, could you record a semester of my, you know, my class? And she almost jumps into that, meaning.

Like, come and take notes the whole semester, or.

What do you mean, record it? Video recording.

I'll sit there and record. Yes, for free or something.

Or.

Well, she has a team that's a videography team, several teams. One of them is a videography team. So she almost is like, well, I've got the capability. We've got the team. Let's make it happen. I'm going to add graphics, I'll add music. We'll have intros, outros, we'll edit the whole semester. I mean, she's get. I'm going to wow this guy. This is all going on in her.

Head for free or paid?

Well, she's, she's. It's. It's her managerial job. So it's got. It got paid, but it's not like a new gig. Sure. It's just one more thing on her plate.

Got it.

And then she remembers, I got to ask this question. What if this could be effortless? Is there a simpler way to get the result we're going for here? She asks a couple more questions to him. Well, it turns out this is all for one student who has an athletic commitment. So he'll miss some of those sessions, some of the classes through the semester, but he needs this class to graduate, so he's trying to accommodate this individual. They come up with a solution. One of the other students is going to record on the iPhone whatever classes he misses and email it to him. That's it. 10 minutes call saves 4 months of work for her, her videography team, everything. And she just steps back and she's just like, what just happened? She would have gone down this one path, thinking it was the only path. This is the way to achieve. And she achieved the same result with 10 minutes of work. That story, it's so available to us again and again and again. I am telling you, it's like, I hate to use the word magic, because it sounds so like whatever, but it is almost like that. It's the closest I've come across to like human dynamic magic is asking this question. We just don't ask it. So our brain can't search for an effortless solution.

So the greatest productivity hack is asking the question, how can I make this more effortless?

Yeah. I think those three that you said, I would say yes.

Forgiveness, gratitude, and asking the question, how can I make this effortless?

Yes. I was just talking to somebody yesterday who spent years in the military. Right. Talk about an experience that's going to train you in embrace the suck, do the hard way.

Journey, discipline, hard work.

It's all about hard work. I'm not against hard work. It's just not the only strategy. I'm not against it. It's just not the only question we can ask if we want to achieve something. He gives me the scenario. So he got to the point where he's in special ops, he has a specific situation if they need to get in. He was in Iraq, Afghanistan. There would be times he had a high value target. They have to get to the door. These metal doors, they're barricaded and they got to blow these things up. And the way that they would do it is that they would put explosives on the hinges of the door, blow them up and then they can get inside. He said. Now the problem with that is that it's super loud, so you draw a massive attention to each other.

What's going on here?

Exactly. And the whole community, the whole area suddenly there, that increases your risk. It makes it harder to entry because you got this whole hole in the door. It's just this crazy environment.

Smoke everywhere, you can't see anything. Exactly.

So actually it is a pretty rough way to achieve your objective. But that was all they had, was an effortless way. Well, he had somebody on his team who was the son of a carpenter who said, look, if you just get me a hydraulic drill, I can do this in like half a second. We'll just take the hinges off, there'll be no sound, no smoke, no explosives, no danger, no additional risk. Well, that's the effortless path. And there are so many ways to do this, but it's just like we just, just don't know that that path is even there because we're not asking that question. If you don't search in Google for X, then you're never going to get answers to X. You're going to find lots and lots of answers for something else.

It's funny. I interviewed someone who. That was his job as a Navy SEAL where he was the guy who put the bombs on the door or on the wall to blow it up so that they could all enter.

Right.

That was his job. And there's a lot of risk with the hard way also, where, what if one of the bombs goes off when you're deploying it and then the person dies? What if the shrapnel that comes from those bombs, the effects of it hurting people around there.

Right.

Also, you can only do that job for so long from my memory of what he said because I guess either you can't go far enough away or you can't get enough barrier from. From that where it actually hurts your ears so much from the explosion over and over again that I think he left, if my memory is correct, because of like the ear stuff. Like the explosion caused so much in the ear where he's like, okay, it's too damaging.

Right.

So the hard way, the forceful way has a lot of repercussions.

It's a great metaphor for what you just said, for the argument against the exhausting, always hard and always hustle strategy. Yeah, There's a time that just force is great. It helps, yes. But what if you can find a better leverage? What if you can find a different path to achieve the results you want?

There's a thing called. You mentioned leverage just now. There's a thing in productivity hacking called delegation. What's your thoughts on delegation versus leverage?

Oh, that's interesting. I mean, I think of. So structurally from the book, we've talked a lot about effortless state. Effortless action is how to make an action easier one time, which is useful in all sorts of settings. But the final section of Effortless Results, what I mean by that is to create effort one time that produces results many, many times over for you. They flow to you.

Give me an example.

Well, you asked about delegation and this would be an example. If I can hire someone that I trust highly, by which I would use Warren Buffett's criteria, right? Three eyes, integrity, intelligence, initiative. If I can hire someone like that, if I can set up for them a high trust agreement, which I outline in that chapter in the book, then they can operate working for me, working as a team, effortlessly. Many, many times in a row. If I hire the wrong person, give them a low trust agreement, which basically means I didn't even come up with an agreement, we just did it randomly and kind of hacked our way through it, then I can end up getting poor results many, many Times over. So I don't see delegation itself as inherently effortless or exhausting. Is doing it right, Setting it up one time right is worth the effort getting. Yes. You want to throw a person at a problem when you, when you're an entrepreneur.

Like, I need to see someone in there to solve this because I don't.

Have the time, energy, and it's very tempting.

That blows up most of the time.

Well, that's it. And so you get poor results many, many times over.

And then you're resentful and you go back to the thoughts of like, why is this person here? You have a Spartan. You're probably book about this. Why is this person here? And you think about that for years until you finally let them go or they screw you over. Like happened in your book where someone took all the money.

Yes.

And then it's a bigger problem.

Longer. Yeah. I mean, that was Steve hall hires somebody to work in his accounting department. They find after a few years, a $300,000 deficit. Ask her about it, she says, well, it's just an error. It's my fault. And after that, they didn't trust her properly, but they just were running too fast. They thought it would be economic to just leave her in that place. Yes. And in the end they said, you know, it went on for a couple more years, and it was then $2 million.

Yeah.

And she, you know, she texts everybody, I'm quitting. And they never even saw her again. So he then said, okay, I've made false decision here. I thought I was taking the quick path, but really this is the expensive path because of the residual effect of hiring the wrong person. So if you hire the right person, they went through a thorough process. The three eyes found somebody. That person has just been a dividend every single day. Doesn't have to be micromanaged, doesn't have to be control. You don't have to put someone watching over them because they have the integrity already. And trust makes everything so much faster, so much easier. If you hire someone that you trust, everything is easier. If you hire someone you don't trust, everything is harder.

And it's hard once they've lost their trust a few times over and over again. If you don't make a decision on how to shift that quickly, you're going to be thinking about, can I trust them? In the back of your mind, yeah, you need to let them go or create a new agreement and commitment to move forward and then let the thought of I can't trust this person go.

Yeah, I think you're right. If you have a situation where there's sort of low trust in a relationship, you sort of owe it to that person and to yourself to do basically either let them go like, hey, listen, it's not working, let you get on with your life, I'm going to get on with mine. That is, I think a legitimate option. Option two is maybe we didn't get an agreement really clear here, let's reset. And you have the reset conversation. And it could be in the reset that they go, I don't want to do that. And now you know, so now it's good. Now we know it isn't going to work because you don't want to do what it is I'm asking you to do. But getting the agreement is written down like a social agreement. I call it high trust agreement. In the book where you're clear on what are the results, what are the resources available to you, how will the accountability be given? Is it once a week I want a written report from you? Is it once a week we're going to have a one on one. You get clear on this and if you get clear enough on it, then sometimes you can turn a lower trust situation into a high performing situation.

What are the factors of this high trust contract we should be thinking about? And now you have a whole spot in the book about this.

Yeah. So I mean, the first thing, I think the most important thing is results. Getting absolutely clear what is the right result? What do you want from this person? Getting agreement that you both agree and understand what that is. When people aren't clear about what they are to deliver on, I mean, think of how frustrating that is for them and for you and for everyone involved. And before I go through the other steps on it, let me just make the one broader point, which is that every relationship has three parties to it, right? There's person A, there's person B, and then there's the agreement.

The agreement to the relationship.

The agreement to the relationship.

The challenge. Before we get into that, the challenge with most romantic relationships is that and business relationships is the uncommunicated expectation.

Right.

That one person says, well, I am assuming they know the agreement, but they.

Haven'T communicated it 100%.

And the other person's like, well, that's not what you said. I didn't agree to that. And I thought you thought this thing.

What you have is by default, you actually have created a low trust agreement. So sometimes it isn't them and it isn't you, which is what you think it is. What's either them and I'm blaming them. And sometimes you go, well, they seem like they're okay, maybe it's me. And neither of those are helpful. Very often it is the agreement that you have come to that is unclear. I mean, how clear are you on the results? Not clear. How clear are you on the rules of how we're going to work together? The rules are unclear. You have a set of rules, I have a different set of rules. We're violating them all the time with each other because we haven't got clear about the rules. Resources might seem a little different in a romantic relationship, but in a corporate employee relationship, it's important. What resources do they have available? What is reasonable for them to use? Even in a, you know, even in a romantic relationship, you could have, you know, we make these kinds of decisions together and these kinds of decisions are independent. You could get clear about that, what resources are available to help you with it. And then I think ultimately the final, most important part of it is this accountability, that you have a clear way of reporting that be the alliteration, the are there reporting it so that you're just not taking that for granted.

Clear results, rules, resources, accountability. Was there something else I missed?

Yeah, those were the ones. I think there's another one in the book, but I can't remember. Someone should read the book.

It's all good.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think, I mean, I think that works for romantic relationships as well. If you don't have clear results of what you're looking to create, which could be a vision for our relationship, what are we looking to have here? Do we want to be, you know, have a family? Do we want it to be a healthy relationship? Are we looking to make an impact as a relationship? What is the results, the rules? Here's what is acceptable, not acceptable? The boundaries. You could say, don't cross these boundaries. I won't cross these for you. Yes, the resources. Who's using their time to create something? Who's using money? How are we sharing these resources?

That's right.

To make the relationship healthier. And then accountability. How are we holding each other accountable?

Yeah.

So it works in business and intimate, I think.

Yes, I think so. I mean, I'm thinking here about a conversation I just had with Eve Rodsky, who wrote a book called Fair Play. And one of the. Now I'm down a rabbit hole on this, but she works with these highly dysfunctional, high net worth families. And so it's like Knives Out. You see the movie Knives Out?

I think I watched Part of it. I know what you mean.

She works with the real knives out family. And one of the things she learned is that you have to try and create. I mean, one of the things she just said to me the other day, this is what made me think of it, is that she thinks in every employee relationship there should be a prenup agreement. And I love this idea. And I think it aligns with this idea of the high trust agreement. Because every employee relationship is going to end and yet we use as our model like marriage and family. We talk about that. Well, we're a family here. And you know, it's like, no, you're not. You know, it's something else. And what is valuable about an employee relationship is that you're not family. That you can say, we can work together, collaborate together for a year, for five years, maybe we do it for 20 years, but one day we're not going to one day because we're not married and yet we operate as if it's going to be forever. And I think that actually introduces a lot of dysfunction onto teams. And I think what you need is like, okay, one day we weren't going to do this. Let's make sure we get out. We can do this in a way that we can leave and be okay with that.

Yeah. Have you heard of the book Conscious Uncoupling?

Yes.

Kathleen Woodward Thomas, who's been on here, is amazing. She's awesome. And she's helped, helped many people consciously uncouple as opposed to the hard way of doing it, the effort way of doing it, which is I hate you and you hate me and lawyers and mitigation and I'm stealing your money and I own. I deserve this. Blow ups for years, anger and sadness. It's like, what's the effortless way to do this?

It's a full circle back because you can think about even the biblical idea which I think is so applicable, which is like to agree with thine adversary.

Quickly and not like 10 years of dragging out something.

Yes. Because it kills people, man. I talked to somebody the other day and they were talking about their brother and they said, this guy and he's made a lot of money, but he spent a third of his life has been in a huge like legal connection.

It's so exhausting.

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You say, are you making a bargain? I need that. I want that. I'm going to get that. It's like you've heard of it and I've actually seen it now. So it's not just a metaphor, but like the monkeys who get their hands caught in something and they can't get their, you know, they're holding them into the. And they can't get. They can't pull their hand out of the, you know, whatever the container is. Yeah, the trap. This, the trap is. Yeah, I've seen it online.

It's a coconut or something, right? Is it like a hand with coconut and they can't get out?

The one I saw was actually like kind of a little. Almost like a little cave on this mound. And so they just, as soon as their hand was in it, they just couldn't get away because they wanted to hold onto it. We do that. We want the thing we want, but actually, often we end up without the thing we want and we do it for 10 years or years and all the emotional stress and all of is the harder way and let it go. You get all that time back, all that emotion back. Get on with creating the thing that you want to create. I think it's. I truly think it is. It is a more effortless way of doing it.

The employee prenup agreement, what would that look like?

Well, I mean, I don't think it's. I mean, I just think it says when this, when we get to an end.

Yes.

I mean, different to a marriage because you don't even. In a prenup with a marriage, you're not wanting to assume it's going to end up. But with this, you know it will. So it just says when it ends, we're going to try and honor these, These ways of doing these rules. These rules. When you, when you leave, we'll, we'll honor, we'll do it this way and we'll ask you to do the same. It just, I think it just the contemplation, it's my kind of advice. The first day of your job, you should be saying, what's my exit strategy? Not because you'll know the answer, but because it's going to happen one day. So you Might as well understand that from the beginning rather than okay, well, it's not going well. I'm going to keep on what, working harder. I'm going to keep doing this. I'm going to do it for years and years and pour more and more of my lifeblood into this to make it work. And make it work because I have to. Because you don't have to.

Yeah.

What a liberating thing for everyone involved. It's okay.

So it's getting into the state, the state of mind first. Where we're letting go.

Yep.

Destroying letting go. Releasing, releasing these negative thoughts, these beliefs that hold us into a low level state.

Right.

So that we can have a more effortless state.

And then the effortless action, which we didn't, we kind of skipped.

Yeah.

So effortless action. So we get into a state of mental flow where we are free from the prisoners. Thoughts that keep us trapped.

Right.

And at a 2 as opposed to a 10 emotionally. Then from there we can take it into action. So how do we create an effortless action state?

Well, the effortless action is a natural. I can connect these three dots here, these three areas by thinking about, you know, when you have somebody NBA, they come up to do a free throw. You see these three steps.

You talked about the girl, 94% free throw on average.

Oh my goodness, she's WNBA.

That's amazing.

Yes. She's the most successful free thrower across the NBA WNBA like in history.

What's her name? Susan or Sue.

Yeah, yeah, Dune.

Dune something.

Dune and, and yeah, something like 94% or something. Right. So it's so basically she never misses. Right. I mean that is what, that is the bottom line.

It's going in, you follow her, she's making two shots.

Exactly.

And, and so, but, but, but anyone you see doing this, you've watched them do the three steps. The first thing they're doing is they're getting to the, you know, they're finding the dot, they're dribbling the ball three times. Why are they even doing that? It's just a ritual to get into.

An effort to clear their mind.

You almost can see them doing it. Try to clear out the noise so they're not distracted by all the fans that are trying to distract them and all the pressure that they can feel and all the things that would get them out of being able to do the job. Well, that's step one. Step two. She says it this way, she's like, just do it the simplest possible way. You don't overthink it. You don't try over try it, you know, so it's, you know, you're lifting your elbow to the square, you're doing it simply as you've done it, practiced many times. Effortless action. And then the effortless result, of course, is that the people that are best at this, like her, the ball almost just bounces back to them. They don't even almost have to move. The result can be done again and again and again. So that's how to connect the three state action and results. But the action is really about how do you simplify, declutter the job at hand. There's a few specific questions that I think help. Any time you have an essential project, you say, what does done look like? What is the first obvious step you can take? So you're not worried about the hundredth step or the thousandth step. You just the first obvious step and then you say, okay, well how can I, how can I take a 10 minute micro burst on that thing? How can I. What are the minimum number of steps I can take in order to achieve the result I want? And then if it's a long ongoing project or process, how can I pace myself so that I'm within an effortless pace on the journey? Those are kind of the five questions I think that really help. And you can apply it to one project.

Yeah.

Just talking to someone on a podcast, I said, okay, what's essential to you that you're under investing in? They said, eating healthy. Okay, so now we know it really matters to them because of a variety of reasons.

They're not doing it.

They're not doing it.

It's in the gap.

It's in the gap. I said, okay, how can we make it effortless? I said, what does done look like? He said, well, it just means that I have food when I'm hungry, so I don't wait till I'm past hungry and eat junk. That's what success looks like. That's what done looks like. I said, okay, what's the first obvious step for doing that? He said, well, I would just get one of these services that you know, they're going to automatically send it, meal plan, delivers it. And what's the first step? Well, I just search for that. I'd search on Google for something in the area. I said, what would you do within first 10 minutes? A micro burst. What can you do in 10 minutes for that? He said, well, actually I think within 10 minutes I could probably do it, solve it. I put in my credit card, choose the meals and set it up with my address done. And there was this weird pause, and I'm like, was that really it? He's like, yeah, that would do it. I said, how long you been struggling with this problem? He's like, years, 20 years. Literally, he's like, 20 years, 10 minutes to solve a problem that has been with him for 20 years. So that's what effortless action looks like. It's asking a few questions, a very simple process that helps take something that would either be procrastinated, you don't even start it, or you've been such a perfectionist about it, you don't finish it. Yeah.

It's removing the obstacle of saying in that scenario of like, okay, well, every Sunday I'm going to the grocery store and I'm gonna meal plan and I'm gonna cook all afternoon. And then I'm gonna get the plastic bins and put them in for myself. And it's gonna take all day just to do this one action. And we think about that and we're like, that's exhausting.

So you don't even bother.

You're like, I don't have the time. I don't have the energy. I'm drained right now.

Let me eat a Snickers.

Right?

Because I'm emotionally drained. I need sugar.

And you owe. What happens? It's like when you look at a slide, you know, if somebody has a presentation and there's 500 words on the slide, we don't read the first 400 words and give up. We do, like, the pre scan. We're like, am I ever going to read that? I'm never going to read.

Yeah, I give up.

We give up before we even begin. It's too hard. And so if we perceives something as overwhelming, we just don't even get going with it. There's a small, tiny example in my own life, but while I was writing the book, I'm like, thinking about these things, and I look around my office, I want to clean it up, and I see a printer on the floor. It's been there two weeks. We've replaced the printer. There's no big deal. But now I don't know what to do with this printer. I have not spent hours thinking about it, but every time I think about it, it's just a bit overwhelming. Do I give it away?

Do I sell it?

If I give away, who would I give it? Do I sell it? If I sell it, where would I sell it? And I don't know, do I. Do I throw it away? Well, if I throw it away. I have to find a digital recycling place. That's all enough in my head. The 10 seconds, 5 seconds of thinking about it. I'm like, oh, no, I'm doing something else. And that's why it's there for two weeks. So I asked the different question, right? How can I make this effortless? And I look up, there's some workers that are outside, and I'm like, I wonder if they want it. I walk out there, ask if they want it. They do want it. Within two minutes of asking the question, I don't just have a solution, it's executed. They said, yes, I come back in, I give it to them, it's done. But that's like, again, it's like kind of full circle. It's like asking that question delivers options that previously weren't available. Two weeks hasn't been available because I'm not asking the right question.

Here's a first world dilemma that I get. A lot of our audience, they say, Louis, when they're thinking about their next move, maybe they've had a little bit of success, maybe they're have their basic needs met and they've got some money coming in. And they say this to me all the time, Louis, I don't know what to do next. I have so many passions, so many things I love to do, I want to do them all.

Yeah.

When someone has the first world problem of lots of options, wanting to do them all, and yet they become a master of nothing, and they get. They put a lot of energy spread thin across everything. Right. They get very little results.

Yes.

What do you say to someone on how to make a better decision on what actions, what where should they should put majority of their energy on those things? Should they spread it across 10 passions? Should they find one passion? Should it be one main passion and two side passions?

Yes.

Like obviously, when you put energy on one essential thing, that thing expands and grows, like you talked about in your first book, and it becomes more effortless. When you put effort on lots of things, it becomes hard.

Right.

So what is the balance when people.

That have lots of passions, I mean, I really relate to this. I struggle with this myself. I find the world fascinating. I want to go everywhere, see everything, do everything. I mean, that's, you know, in a sense, I wrote essentialism for me, right? To try and go, well, is there a time at which that outlives its usefulness? Yes, it's good to be passionate and interested. But do you get too spread too thin and you don't achieve what you want to. I mean, I think I would say that at any given time you ought to know what the priority breakthrough thing is in your career.

What does that mean, priority breakthrough thing?

Well, it's like, I mean, so for me right now the breakthrough is that this book, effortless. Well, first of all, my kind of mantra, and maybe it's not a good mantra, but it was like, don't write a rubbish book, right?

Don't write a bad book.

And for real, the risk of that was high because if you have a book that does well, the chances that.

The next follow up can be bad.

And I think if I'd written a book right away, I think it just would have been bad. And I didn't, fortunately, paused, waited until I was like, there's something I really want to say. And it felt the right time to do it. So that would be like the priority objective. And one of the things around it is that you kind of know it because you feel it's right. So it feels mentally right, emotionally right. But also you know that if you achieve this, it's a breakthrough. A lot of people that will start doing, you know, like they want the, they want the career tent to go higher, to be bigger, and they do it by like doing more and more tent poles of the same height. And now they've got 10 projects on the road. Well, if they do all 10 of them, they won't go to the next level. They're actually just going to be busier doing the same stuff. So I think it's always key what you're looking for. What I call the 90% rule is what is it a 90% above? Clearly, yes, definite. If we could do that, it would change everything. If I could do that, it would take me to the next level. For me, the word is contribution. I want to make a higher and higher contribution. So I'm not sitting around going, how can I make more money? What's the thing that will make more money? But it is, what can I do that will impact 2x10x impact in the world? And there's a lot of stuff that won't do that. And you could do it superbly well and you'd still be exactly the same level. And so what I'm trying to do is what's the thing that would break through to the next level of contribution? I think that's kind of the question you're looking for.

Interesting.

What would it be for you?

I'm just trying to say. So if people had a lot of these things that they really cared about, though, would they have to eliminate those things and just focus on the breakthrough thing first and put those things on the side burner?

When I wrote Essentialism, I think I probably was leaning towards that. Just eliminate the other stuff completely.

Yeah. And thing you can make the biggest impact with.

Yes. And I still think as a basic principle, that's not bad. But I think I would be more nuanced now about it. I would say, like, for example, I had Patrick McGinnis on the show, and he's the guy that first came up with the term fomo. Fear of missing out, really. I really love talking with Patrick McGinnis. And one of the things he introduced me to was the idea of the 10% entrepreneur. Meaning, okay, so you choose your main thing. That's your main stuff. But if you say you shouldn't have 10 other things that you're going, hey, I'm going, I'm trying to do 10% on 10 different things in 10 different directions, I don't think that's breakthrough success is likely at all. But you say, here's my main thing, and I'm going to have one additional thing. I'm really interested in it. I think it could be something, but I can't yet find afford to just spend all of my time on it. So I'm going to start investing in it. I'm going to learn, I'm going to see if I still have interest beyond. No, that was kind of a hobby. That's fine. I'll put that aside, try something else. So I think I would say, look, choose the big thing and then be very selective and careful about the other things that you do. And I do think there's a lot of stuff you do have to say. Not now, not yet. It doesn't mean I don't like it. It doesn't mean I don't care. But if I say yes to this, I'm going to be saying no to something more important, more breakthrough.

Yeah. My friend Rory Vaden has a saying called procrastinate on purpose.

Yeah.

Like you've got all these things that you. That are important to you and you are excited about and you may want to do now, but it's not the most important thing right now. So procrastinate on it. Have it here, but don't put a time and attention on it. Put it in the back burner. Procrastinate on it until it's the right time, until you want to add that to the plate right now, but do the thing right now. That's going to help make that more effortless in the future?

I think so. I mean, essentialism, really, about the idea of doing the right things at the right times for the right reasons. And so it's not just the right thing. Timing is enormously important and I think does affect prioritization. There are some times when things come up and the opportunity is here now. So you take, you take. You're opportunistic about it because, well, this is what's here. The person has emailed. The opportunity is here, the moment is here. So you go with it because momentum is so important. But I think that the thing to be aware of is this thing I'm doing, creating motion sickness or momentum.

Interesting.

Yeah.

What's motion sickness? Being you're all over the place. You can't think clearly.

Yeah.

I mean, you're just being dragged in another direction. It's just one more thing. And you're like, I don't see how it fits together. It doesn't feel like it's cohesive. Doesn't feel like it's taking me in a direction that's meaningful. It's just one more thing. And the thing about motion sickness is that you feel like things are moving fast, but actually you're not moving anywhere. You're just spinning.

Yes. It's kind of like the difference between, gosh, I've written this down. Sorry to interrupt you there.

No, that's all right.

Between the keys to productivity and momentum versus busy work and just writing things off a checklist.

Yeah.

It's like, you know, the motion sickness is busy work. It's like, I'm doing a lot of things, but nothing's actually building test of this for me.

And I fail at this most days right now. But. But the test is the difference between a to do list and a done for the day list. The to do list is endless. So really, you don't have to make many decisions on a to do list. You just go, here's all the stuff. Write it all down. It feels good writing it down. And if you could do all of that stuff, that would be great. You'd like that. The done for the day list is something my wife and I started using. And what it forces you to do is to actually think about what would be satisfying to you. You say if you accomplish by the end of the day, if I accomplish this stuff, I would feel satisfied and I can be done and feel good about it. So you don't just go, well, it's six o'. Clock. I keep going at seven o' clock. I'll keep going. Eight, nine, ten. There's. The to do list is still there. You get to the end of the day, you go to sleep. Oh, my gosh, I can't believe all this stuff I didn't get done. This is the. This is the lifestyle we've created on an endless to do list. The done for the day list. What I think the challenge with it is, is that you have to really think, what would make me feel done for today. There's a list. I do have a list I made, but the thing is, I made it like two days ago. So it's not really a done for the day list. Maybe it was more like a done for the week list. But if I do those things this week, I will feel great. Those are really solid achievements. And the idea of the done for the day list or the done for the week list is once you're done, you go, okay, guilt free. I'm done. I'm not, you know, like, my wife and I were like, you don't get in the hot tub or in the bath and then sneakily get on Amazon and order stuff and do email on your phone. There's no sneaky work allowed. You're done for the day. So you can start taking relaxation like a responsibility. You actually relax purposefully, intentionally. You figure out the things that you enjoy doing that you like to do. You create fun rituals around them. And this is so important for peak performance on a sustainable level.

So smart. I mean, it's. How do people learn to not beat themselves up if they get these things done for the day and they have four more hours of, like, work time?

Totally. I think the beating yourself up, up when you're not working is as clear an evidence that we need to choose a new paradigm as any there is. You do productive work on the things that matter. You get them done. But I'm guilty. I'm not doing more. What is that? What kind of a reversed world is that? You are working? How is that living to work rather than working to live? What it shows is that we've got skill and competence in working and being productive and not skill in how to relax. And a lot of overachievers do not even know how to relax. Like, they don't know how the novice is at it. And it's really important that they learn. Because we are not machines that can work 24 7, like in the industrial age. We are humans that work in cycles and rhythms. And if you try and work all the time and hustle, I mean, I Don't care. Yes, you can find one. This person, that person who seem to be the exception to this rule. I can point to you, a million or 2 million people that prove it, right, that if you just try to do it all the time, you will burn out, you will have worse relationships, you will enjoy your life less. So I think the key, though, is to start designing relaxation that we want to do, because I think there's some very awkward about, like, okay, now I'm relaxing. I'm taking spring break off. I'm taking the weekend off. I'm having a long weekend, and we got nothing. And we just got blank time. No one likes that. And certainly overachievers don't like that. You just feel awkward and weird, and it's like, well, my phone's right there. I think I'm just going to get on my phone, right? So I think it's one of the things I like. My wife and I have done this, and I think it's useful, is to make a list of. Of 10 or 20 things that really create joy for you that you enjoy doing. You like relaxing in this way. This is good for you. You don't have to justify this list to anyone, but you got to be honest about it. And once you have this list, they become like building blocks that you can start matching and connecting together in order to create. Like, if you have a day, my wife and I have done it before where I've taken her list, 20 things, I go, it's her birthday. What am I gonna do?

Let's do three or four of these things.

Let's look at these. And I can look at the list and go, oh, if I combine any number of these, it's gonna be a good day for her because these are the things that she likes. My list is very different to her list, but now it's useful to know that. So she's designing an evening for me or a day for me, or we kind of come up with something. What are we gonna do on our vacation? Vacations can be quite stressful for a lot of people.

You almost need a vacation from the vacation.

When you get home, they can be. And also they can be miserable if you don't have design in them. Yes, it's not enough. Oh, I went to this place. I went to Hawaii, and it's going to be great. This sounds like such an awful first world problem, but my wife and I went to Hawaii. We didn't enjoy it at all. I don't know, it just was. We just hadn't Figured out what was purposeful about it for us or what kind of, what does she like to do? What is enjoyable for her, what's enjoyable for me. Let's construct something around those activities. And once we learned that, we're like, okay, that's it. You can't just go and suddenly sit on. Sit on a beach somewhere and assume that that's going to be satisfying to.

You, fulfilling to someone, relaxing to you.

But you got to, by figuring out what are the building blocks, the things that actually are relaxing and enjoyable, you start to have competence in relaxing. You take, relaxing is a responsibility. Relaxing is a responsibility.

You relax.

Well, I relax better now. Let me try and be like, give me a really honest answer to that question. Do I relax? Well, I.

Have to think about it.

The pause makes me guilty by. The pause is too long to now be fully credible in this area. There are a bunch of things I love to do to relax.

You just don't do them enough.

Yeah, I don't. Here's what I haven't done well about them. Like, I'll give you them. I love to play tennis. I love to play tennis with my son. You know, he's enjoying that more and more now. I like to be in the hot tub. That's a very relaxing place. I think it's very, you know, it's kind of beautiful little area. The experience is calming, I would say on those things. I'd love to go on a walk with my wife, like, for an hour. We were doing that almost every day until like, the last two, three weeks, but. And we did it the last two days. That's. I would say we do pretty well, and that's that we both like it. We don't bring our phones. We just go out there and we just, you know, talk and connect. We're normally all over the place. She's got different agenda to me, which is fine. We're just there to listen to each other, just hear what's going on in each other's world. That is a pretty relaxing experience. The tennis. I have been amazed at how little I've done over the last year of that. And I don't even know why you love it. I love doing it, and I just haven't done it. I think the pandemic just drained us all a little more, that there's a little less oomph at the end of the day to go do that maybe, but we just started that up more. What was the other one I mentioned? Yeah, hot tub. Oh, no. I give myself an A on A hot tub.

You can go there every day.

I go every day and I do meetings from hot tubs, too. That's cool. Yeah, it's a little weird.

Is that relaxing?

Fair enough. Fair enough.

It's checking the phone.

That's more like. That's more like.

How do you make the most out of meetings?

If I'm doing. Yeah, that's more like what we were saying before about making it a ritual funner. If I'm going to be in a meeting, I just realized I'm like, literally, we're here in California. You're paying to be in California. You got the weather outside. And I stay in a little office through the day.

Might as well be outside.

Might as well be outside doing that. It's made it. I feel like it's a little weird for people when they call and I'm like, I just always confess it. They can't even hear it, but I just feel like if they hear anything, it'll be weird. So I'm always just like, oh, listen, I'm in a hot tub.

I'm just letting you know.

And we just fess up about it.

That's funny.

That has been good. And I'll do the same with the kids at night. And I find that good relaxing time.

That's great.

So I don't know. That's a mixed. Mixed bag.

What is the. What do high achievers get wrong about life?

If they did one thing, what does high achievers get wrong in life?

And if they had one, if they could do one thing to make their life better or more effortless, what would that be?

I feel like the primary thing high achievers get wrong is that they go after the wrong thing. They just get on some focused task. You know, high achievers know how to achieve. That is what they know how to do. So if a high achiever go, hey, I'm going to run a marathon, yes, I put my money on them. They're going to do it. They know how to do that.

They'll figure it out.

The problem is if you target the wrong goal right, you suddenly you're running the marathon. But actually what you want is a great relationship with your wife. You want a great family. You're like, you're focusing on the wrong thing. That, I think is the primary error that otherwise successful people make. So we could describe it as unsatisfying success. You achieved it, you weren't satisfied because it didn't really matter. It wasn't the right goal you went after. I would say that's error number One, and I would just say error number two is doing it in the wrong way. It's like the weightlifter who's lifting with their back instead of the correct way. It's like a baker who's kneading everything by hand rather than with a machine. It's just like doing it the hard way, the wrong way, and it just costs them too much.

What's the question they should be asking themselves?

Well, I mean, there's two questions that I would say have changed my life. And literally I've written a book about each of them. Now. One is, what is essential? What really is essential? What is truly important? Another way of asking that same question that cuts through all the clutter is what is one thing that's absolutely essential that I'm under investing in right now? That's all. To me, that's all like the same question, but the last one is a slightly more precise way of asking it.

What is essential that I'm under investing in right now?

Yes, because you already know that. The thing about that question, you already know it matters, so you don't have to waste time. What matters? What is essential to me you already know.

And that's usually relationships and health for high achievers. It's like they're not investing in their health and they're putting it in their work or their accomplishments in general. Not everyone. Or it's like I'm putting all my time and energy on achieving that. My relationships suffer.

Yes, I think that's right. And so that then leads to why I think that's the biggest error. Because you get to the end of your life or even certain midlife crisis, and you go, my goodness. Yes, I achieved all these things.

I've got the money.

I got the money. Or I didn't.

But no meaning and love and.

No meaning. No health. No. No strong relationship. Yeah, that's a fool's bargain.

What's really essential that you're under investing in right now?

Now. Okay, let me pause so I'm really honest with the question. What's essential for me that I'm under investing in? Yeah, I would say it is, like, really relaxing. I would say it's the thing we were just talking about. And I would give myself, now that I'm reflecting on a second time, reasonably low grade. And I don't mean over the last six months or the last year. I mean, like the last week, two weeks, month. And I've done a variety of things to relax in that time, but I just, like, literally in the last 24 hours. I'm like, I pushed awfully hard on Monday. Yeah, like, I don't mean that sounds weird. Monday was crazy, but it actually was. It was so intense with so many decisions, high stakes decisions, one after another. The end thing I did was an interview with Chris evans in the UK's big radio star and somebody I listened to when I was growing up. And that was my like 10 to 11 slot, which I wouldn't normally do, but it all made sense. It was better than 1am, which is what they'd offered originally.

10 to 11 at night, at night, early morning, their UK time, early morning.

Their time and pre recorded so that we didn't do it in the middle of the night. All of that actually felt great. But here's a thing that I've noticed that you've got to have as a standard, something like, don't use up more energy today than you can recuperate today. And certainly not over a week period where you say, okay, well today I pushed a little more, but I need to pull back the next day so that over a week I am rejuvenating my energy. And I didn't do that yesterday. So I just hit yesterday like a normal day, not realizing. And you just used up a lot of juice to get through and to succeed at the things you did today. And so it just meant that by the end of Tuesday I was both, my wife and I were both feeling a bit frazzled. And instead of going, of course we are, so therefore we're just going to chill, we don't have to be productive right now. We're okay. We're still thinking, wow, we ought to do a bit more, we ought to do something.

It's kind of like my friend Sean Stevenson, who's a sleep master, talks about sleep debt, that if you're burning the midnight oil per se, or going to bed 2:00am, waking up at 7, or getting 5 hours of sleep, 4 hours of sleep, pulling all nighters. He's like, that's a debt that your body can never make up, right? And you can't oversleep to try to compensate that. But doing it over and over and over again is just going to make it worse. You need to have time to rest, you need to have the time to recover and heal your body, your mind and all the things in your body. And you want to try to sleep more the next day. But it's not always going to be the thing that equalizes it. What I'm hearing you say is that when you overexert your energy in One day, if you do that over and over and over again, whether you sleep or not, you're going to be tired and exhausted. So you need to find time to rest, recover, relax. The next day or the next week, whatever it is. If you're in a book tour, I get it.

Sure.

It's like, there's got to be a balance.

The term that comes to mind now that you use sleep, debt is relaxing debt. And that's like. That's like a new term to me in this conversation, and I like it because it names that problem relaxation. Yeah. And you can be doing some relaxation, but if you start to not have enough of it, it's not just the same as sleep. You might be getting enough sleep, but you aren't getting enough mental. Just release. It's like. It's like if you have a bow on a. On a. You know, on a guitar, on a violin. Like, if you keep it strung all the time, it will lose its spring. You got to have times when it's, you know, relaxed and released, and then you tighten it again if you aren't doing enough of the.

When you put it back in the box, you got to unloosen.

Gotta unloosen.

You can't keep it tight.

Yeah. Why not?

You gotta unloosen it.

Right. And the same for us.

It's interesting. I was. I mean, this is why, you know, professors take time off, you know, months, six months at a time.

Sabbaticals.

Right. It was talking to a pastor, Pastor Michael Todd recently, who's a pastor of a church in Tulsa, Oklahoma, I believe it is. And he said one of the greatest pieces of advice a mentor of his told him was that no matter what you do, you're here. His mission is to serve God, serve people, and serve God. And he does it all day, all night long.

Right?

That's his mission.

Right.

He said, the best thing you'll ever do is take a month off where you do nothing. You don't show up for anyone. You don't. You're not on your phone, you're not on social media, you're not at the church, you're not serving people. That's your time. And he goes, there's so many people out there that need my help, that need my service, that need our time, our attention. He goes, you will be so burned out if that's all you do all day for years, that you'll lose yourself. And he says every year he takes a month where he's not on the phone, he's not doing Those things. And he's there with himself, his family, his wife, vacationing, relaxing. And he's like, I get more great ideas in the rest and relaxation time. I'm more rejuvenated to go have passion and energy for the other 11 months of the year. Yeah, that. The best book. The book he had a book that came from, that was the number one yard time bestseller. It's like, I wouldn't have written that number one at time bestseller. The idea came from relaxing and resting, not always in service, but having that time as well.

Well, I mean, there's another biblical idea there. Right. Which is Sunday. Right. Seventh day. Right. You actually say, you know, so if God has to rest, you know, we. We really have a full justification from that, from a religious point of view, from a Christian perspective to say, well, from Judeo Christian point of view, which is like, yeah, it is. You're supposed to have a day. You're supposed to have. I mean, that's what sabbatical comes from. Right. The same word as Sabbath. You're supposed to have time for the other. It's kind of another type of productivity. I mean, you can think about it that way. It's just the rhythm and everything has a season so that the best ideas come.

You're speaking my language with seasons, but because as an athlete, there's a preseason, there's the season, there's the postseason, there's these different seasons, there's a playoffs and then the postseason. Right. It's like, you got the preseason, you got the season, you got the playoffs and the postseason. In the post season, you've got to recover. Your body's been pounded in football, you're just hitting over and over again. You got to let your body heal.

Right.

You can train in other ways, but you got to take some time. Baseball, every. Every sports team has an off season.

There's a. And. And if you can. And you're not supposed to, even in the preseason, be playing like you're in the playoffs.

No.

And if you do. I remember one time, the Golden State warriors, they. They had like the. The, you know, the winningest season ever. They were like. They had the playoffs favorites for everyone. Yeah. But they didn't have enough in the tank to get them over the line. Yeah, that's the year that they. They lost the.

They won like, they lost like five games the whole year. And then.

Exactly. And so the next season they learned that, don't worry about that. You don't have to be the top of the league, even just make the playoffs. And so on. I mean, they'd be happy if they made the playoffs this year, but. So there's something to say about that too. But I like the idea that you don't even have, you know, you have different seasons throughout. It reminds me of Madden, who is one of the, the people I covered in the book. He just was like these players. He said, look, you've got to. Actually he said, what I wish we'd done more of last year was nothing like I wish we'd done some more. Just do nothing, relax, chill, Nothing. Yes. He's like, we needed more. No time. And he said, you mean in the season of their. Yes. He was saying let's have it so that you come in for a game instead of coming in four hours early and training hard and so on. He's like, let's call it the American Legion week. Which is, you know, so when they were, when they were, you know, not professional players, they would just turn up to play.

They didn't practice.

They didn't. You just, you just, you weren't there for several hours before and beating yourself up. You just turned up to play. And he's like, we're going to start doing that in the regular season for some of it. And he found that that was so countercultural. It took him a while to get it installed, but the results have been incredible.

You know what's so funny? You grew up in the uk, right?

Yeah.

So you understand American football with Madden. But I played in college.

Not like you though, let's be sure about that.

But I played in college at the Division 3 level. There's three divisions in college. I was in Division 3 level, which is a lower level historically. Even though there's a lot of great talent in it.

Yeah.

And there was a team, I'm going to forget the name, but it was a team in Wisconsin, a school that was like national champions in this league in Division 3, like five out of 10 years or like five years in a row? 10 years in a row, Something like that. It was like 10 out of 20 years. It's like they were either at the national championship game, won it, or they were there and they had. They were notorious for never hitting in practice. They wore like shorts in practice. They would do jumping jacks. They would sit back on the back of the field and do like snow angels in the grass and just do like silly goofy things for warm up and they wouldn't hit all ever in practice.

Wow.

And then they would show up at the game and be so fresh and so light and Just dominate speed. No injuries.

No. Yeah, no injuries. How about that?

No bruising. Exactly. And most of the time when I, when I grew up, football was like, you have to train, you have to be prepared. Hit, hit, hit. All practice long, maybe the day before, it's more of a walk through. And then you're like, I'm exhausted.

Yeah. Going into the game.

Yes.

You're going into battle exhausted and you're already burned out, tired, or oh, I.

Tweaked my arm because we're hitting all day long till I prove something or to practice and train this way. And these guys, they did like jumping jacks. And then they were like, all right, we're loose, we're ready to go. And you were like, how do they keep winning? But they were doing the effortless thing in practice, which was counterproductive to the hard work. We need to be here and grind it out all practice long, every minute, squeeze out all the pain. As opposed to what's the effortless thing?

What that reminds me of. You've heard, I'm sure, of the book of the blue ocean strategy. Right? And so the idea of that, the metaphor behind that book is that you've got all the competitors who are in fighting over the same fish, and because they're fighting over the same fish, it makes the sea red with blood. And this whole book premise is saying, what if you don't fight where everyone else is fighting and instead you create your own market so you're not competing with anyone. You make your competitors irrelevant. And that's why it's called blue ocean strategy. It goes where no one is playing. What I just feel like, is that what you just described as such a red ocean strategy. We're going to kill ourselves all day, every day, all day, every day. And we're gonna kill ourselves more than everybody else is. I mean, it's like red from a different kind of blood. It's like. It's like, yeah, that's one strategy. I'm not saying it can't ever work.

I'm just saying it works sometimes.

But, like, you're just fighting with. And you're fighting with everyone else who's doing the same thing. Is there not at least a percentage of your time? I was just talking to somebody who is a general manager in, in the NFL and I said, okay, of all the speeches you've ever given as a leader to try and get better results from your teams, what is the percentage ratio between work harder, give more, vote, and let's find an easier way to get the results what's the ratio? And he just laughs. He's like, Greg, it's 100% the first. I have never given the speech. Let's find an easier way to get the results. That's the problem. It's like, almost like it seems like I'm fully attacking this strategy in this book. And I'm just saying it's just not the only one. There's another whole strategy. What if you just ask the other question, you might find that there is, in fact, another way to do training. You might find, just like the team, you said jumping jacks might be the thing. Relaxing might have its place so that you can be ready to give your all when the moment comes.

This is powerful stuff, Greg. I'm so glad you wrote this book. I want people to get it. It's called Effortless. Make it easy to do what matters. Make sure you guys check this out. Also, check out your podcast, which is called what's Essential. You guys can download that, subscribe. It's on Apple, Spotify, everywhere, Everywhere podcasts are at. This is a book that I have footnoted on a lot of pages because for me, my audience knows it's hard for me to read because it just hurts my brain. Reading one paragraph is like, oh, this is hard work. You made it easy to go through this. And I highlighted many pages because it's, you know, it's like some pages are like a kid's book for me. It's like there's a graph, there's an image, and then some words, and you make it really simple and easy to read. So I appreciate everything that you have here. And where is that one page? Again, I want to highlight this for people. There's two pages where you said, here we go. I like this. When you focus on what you lack, you lose what you have. When you focus on what you have, you get what you lack. Again, this is kind of a key principle from the book that I think is really important to think about, so I'm grateful you did this. I have a couple final questions for you. This is called a three truths question I ask everyone at the end of every show called Three Truths. Okay, so I'd like you to imagine a hypothetical scenario that it's your last day on earth, many years away, and you get to live as long as you want, but eventually you got to turn the lights off, and you've accomplished every dream that you could think of. Okay, you have the life you want. You've done it all effortlessly, but for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your work with you to the next place. No one has access to this book, any book that you've ever written or anything you've ever said.

Okay.

But you get a piece of paper and a pen to write down three lessons that you've learned that you would like to share with the world. What I like to call three truths. This is all we would have from you as your memory.

Oh, so this is the only thing that you get to leave behind.

This is all the information we have about you and your thoughts and your ideas and your work, because you've taken it all with you. So you have three lessons to leave behind to the world.

Oh, okay.

Three Truths by Greg McCune.

Okay. The first one would be one word, light.

Which spelling.

Yeah, just light. L, I, G, H, T, Light.

Two meanings.

Yeah, that's good, because the first meaning. Let's deal with the first meaning. Light, as in light versus darkness. That in every moment you have a choice to go towards the light or to go towards the darkness. And it doesn't really matter whether somebody's coming at with a religious perspective or no faith perspective. Everybody knows this. They know something is the right thing to do. It's full of light. Or they know something is not the right thing. And we all have to choose between that constantly. And I think that's what it means to be a good person, is that you keep coming back to the light. You make mistakes, but you just go, okay, my next choice, I'm going to do the thing that I know to be right, and that will lead to more light and more light until I think your life is full of light. Yeah, that's principle one, light. Principle two is the same word, but the different meaning. Okay, so light still. Same way. L, I, G, H, T. I think. Yeah. Because that still just has a double meaning. Light or L, I, T, E. No, but I think. I think it's just the same. Yeah. And that's light as in choose the lighter way of living, in the way we've talked about.

The effortless way.

The effortless way where you. You're just going, not everything has to be so hard. And underneath that, I think, is the question, how am I making life harder than it needs to be? My favorite story, actually, it's in the version you have here, but it's not in the actual book, which is a shame. It's the one thing I kind of regret that I didn't get into the. I chose to have it out and I regret it. But it's the story of A woman who has her son who's dying, and they're in the hospital together, and it's at the end. So that's actually really similar to your. To your scenario for me. And you can tell sometimes. You can really tell. I've been with people towards the end of their lives. And sometimes, you know, and so she knew, and so she got up into the bed with him just to kind of, you know, hug him. And right at the end, you know, in that between places, he's just. The last words he ever says is mom. It's all so simple. It's so simple. And then he died. And that was his final message to his mother, to the world. And I think that's what I mean by this second version of light. Like, how are we making life harder than it needs to be? What are we making more complex than it needs to be? Let's try and strip life of all of that so it can be light in that second way. And now I'm thinking about the third thing. And I think if I had to really be honest about this, I would just say. I would say light a third time. But now I just have to sort of share my own conviction. And I'm not sharing it because I feel like anybody else has to believe this, or I'm not trying to pressure anybody else into anything, but I just believe that God is a source of light. And for me, as a Christian, I believe that Jesus Christ is the source of that light. And I feel that in my own life, I see it in my own family. It's not based in some relic of a belief. It is a living, breathing thing. For me, it got us through this experience with Eve. It is the thing that I. For me, it is where I find the great enlightenment for my own life. It makes me want to be kinder, be better, serve more. And so I think that would be sort of the final and perhaps most important point is that I make him the light of my life so that it can fill me, and it fills me. The thing that I'm currently experiencing is that it increases the amount of love in me for other people. And I need it. I need that in my life. I need to feel that love. We all need to be loved and to be able to love each other.

And.

And this is. This has been. This is the journey I'm on, is to feel God's love for me, which allows me to then be able to be full of it for other people. And, like, we don't all need a bit more of that, right? Now in the world where we're just being told to distrust and dislike and not love other people who are different to us. Yeah, we need a lot more of it. That's. That's my answer to your question.

That's beautiful. I love those great truths. I want to acknowledge you, Greg, before I ask the final question for being an incredible father. It sounds like your daughter really needed you over the last four years, and you showed up with new strategies, new ways of learning on how to make it a better environment for her and the rest of your kids during an incredibly hard and challenging suffering time, which could have been much harder.

Yeah.

So for you to show up the way you did and to say, okay, we're not going to do it the hard way and suffer, we're already suffering, how can we make this more enjoyable? I think that's probably the thing that I admire the most about you. I have no idea what it's like to be a parent, and I can only imagine the amount of stress, fear, overwhelm, frustration around something like that. So I acknowledge you for the way you handled it and the way you continue to handle it, even though it's not perfect and showing up as the light for your kids and your entire family. I think it's really inspiring.

Well, I can't have you say that without just really acknowledging all the people that played a role in that. I mean, the answer I just gave you, I really have to acknowledge that light in my life that guided me even to read that article or to get me through it, or to receive insights and little revelations that guided us through that. There's no question about that. I have to acknowledge, really, the hand of God in that. And also other people who showed up, who just literally people maybe haven't heard from in years, showed up. We're praying for you. Now, that can be just like a nice, polite phrase. But I'll tell you, we learned that it is for real. That is our experience is that things opened up and opportunities opened up that would not otherwise have opened up. Without that, I would be intellectually dishonest not to add that to the experience of what that was. And that's one of the reasons that I felt, I guess, obliged, a little awkward, to be honest, in doing it, but in dedicating the book to a single principle, which is a verse from Matthew, My yoke is easy, my burden is light. To me, that's a breathtaking phrase. Having spent all this time now in the principle of effortless. Effortless. It's like, man, that is right There, a lot of people, their life does not feel light, it does not feel easy. But there seems to be a path, even in a scriptural path for getting there.

Yeah, that's beautiful. Greg, final question for you before I ask it. Make sure you guys get the book. It's going to be powerful. Get a couple copies for your friends, for your team.

Effortless.

Make sure you guys check it out.

Final question.

What is your definition of greatness?

I think that the friend and mentor for me was Stephen Covey, and he used to distinguish primary greatness and secondary greatness. And he said primary greatness is the private victory. It's all the stuff that's going on inside of you, that's your character. It's whether you're being kind, grateful, honestly. You know, it's all of who you are. No one gets to see that. That's all the quiet. Then there's public greatness. Secondary greatness is the public victory. That's what people see, that's the successes. And really what he was trying to distinguish, I think, is that primary greatness precedes secondary greatness and is more important. If you get primary greatness, you'll often achieve secondary greatness. You'll often actually gain the accolades of other people because you have something substantive inside of you. But if you don't, you're still something substantive inside of you. So you still win at the thing that matters most. And so I think the greatness to me is mostly the first, but it's what also powers the second and gives life to it. So that's my definition.

That's beautiful. And to add to that, if you only chase the public greatness and you don't have the integrity, the character, you're not kind to others. You will suffer at the end of the day, and that'll never be enough.

Never be enough. You may not achieve it. And secondary greatness disappears awfully fast. Quick, we're having this conversation in the middle of, like, basically in the middle.

Of Hollywood, in the middle of cancel culture.

Middle of cancel culture, exactly. So someone can be famous, they can have the money, and then tomorrow they can be completely kicked out. So you can't construct your life around secondary greatness. If you do, that's a high risk strategy, let's say it that way.

My man, Greg, this has been powerful. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for being here, for listening to this episode. And if this adds value to your life, where it helps you maximize time in any way, shape or form, then let me know, leave a rating and review and share with me the part you enjoy the most and share this with a friend that you think would find it inspiring and helpful as well. Would love to hear your thoughts. Feel free to text me the Word podcast as well to my number 614-350-3960 to get on our texting list again. Text the word podcast to 614-350-3960 if you want to get on our texting community list to be inspired and motivated through text messages every single week from me and I will leave you with a quote from filmmaker George Lucas who says Always remember, your focus determines your reality.

Ooh.

In a world of distractions, in a world of non stop notifications, in a world of endless possibilities to spend on our time, what are you focusing your time on? What is meaningful to you? What matters? How would you like to be remembered? What would you like to be known for? What would make you proud? Knowing what you used with your time for your energy, your talents, your creation in this world. Focus your energy in the right things and the right things will usually come back in supporting you as well. I'm so grateful that you were here today. I hope this added value in your life. And as always, if no one has told you lately, I want to remind.

You that you are loved, you are.

Worthy, and you matter. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.

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