The Truth About Muscle, Protein, and Living Longer | Dr. Gabrielle Lyon

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I think the stat is more than 75% of Americans are overweight Nearly half of all Americans have health-compromised obesity. But I'm curious, with this information, should we be thinking about obesity, or should we be thinking more about muscle?

Yeah, well, what if I told you I don't think we're overfat? In fact, we are undermuscled. And the reality is, as you pointed out, there's been this fixation on fat, adiposity, the diseases related to obesity. Cardiovascular disease, hypertension, insulin resistance, all of these that go along with—

With obesity, right?

Exactly. Well, what if obesity is actually just a symptom, which in fact it is, and what if I told you that these diseases are actually diseases of skeletal muscle first and that obesity begins in skeletal muscle? Insulin resistance begins in skeletal muscle first.

What is skeletal muscle?

Yeah, well, I mean, just even from a general perspective, it's the things that you— it's the muscles you have voluntary control over.

Okay.

Right? So it's your biceps or your triceps or your quads.

Anything you can flex is that. Okay. So the disease starts there? Yeah. Or there's a weakness first there?

Well, if you think about what skeletal muscle is, Skeletal muscle is your metabolic currency. It's number one. For most people, it makes up 40% of their body weight. For you, maybe 45%. For me, maybe 35%. You know, you're about a foot taller than me.

Exactly.

And when we think about skeletal muscle, we must understand that really, again, as your metabolic sink, what does it do? It is the site for glucose disposal. 80% or more, it is the site of glucose disposal.

Your muscle is the site where glucose can be run through. Exactly.

So glucose is a really interesting molecule in the fact that it is toxic, but we need it. And we have to get rid of it. It can't just hang around.

And if we don't get rid of it, it's stored in the fat.

Well, if we don't get rid of it, the definition is diabetes. But we have to move glucose out of the bloodstream and into tissue. The main site of that is skeletal muscle. If you think about skeletal muscle as a suitcase, If it is overpacked with glucose and fatty acids, everything spills back out into the bloodstream.

Okay.

Right? And what we must understand is that healthy muscle will act as the body's sink. Or flush it out. Well, yeah. I mean, you got to put something—

Or really unclog it.

Yeah. So if we are overeating and under-exercising, we are having a negative impact on skeletal muscle. Which is really the focal point of metabolism from my perspective, from a muscle-centric perspective. Well, what does that mean practically? Well, that means practically that the healthier your skeletal muscle is, the better your glucose regulation. Everybody cares about blood sugar regulation, right? Sure. Care about insulin resistance, and insulin resistance is requiring and being able to— you actually need more insulin to be able to put that glucose, which is toxic, back into the— into the cell. Insulin resistance is just, you know, needing more. Well, when we think about skeletal muscle, it's the site for glucose disposal. It's also the site where fatty acids are metabolized, which people don't often think about that. Skeletal muscle is your body armor. Yeah. Should you get injured, should you have or need or be in a compromised state, skeletal muscle is It's what's going to allow for your survivability.

Mm-hmm, and your recovery too.

Your recovery is—

If you've got more muscle, you should be able to recover faster. Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Yes, yes, not only that, but your survivability for every injury, for nearly every injury, every disease is going to be based on, you will survive better the more muscle mass you have.

Is it important to have more muscle, or is it the quality of the muscle?

Great question.

Or is it—

Yeah.

Can you have less muscle and be— more efficient with the muscle?

Yes.

So let's break this down. Just pump your muscle with creatine and just swell them up, or is it, you know, flexibility of the muscle? What is it?

All of these points are important. And I love what you said, is it really about the amount of muscle or is it about the health of the muscle? And I would say we know that obese individuals have more muscle because they are required to carry around more weight.

Obese individuals have more muscle.

But you mentioned something that was really smart, healthy muscle. Something that happens that we know that affects skeletal muscle is if your skeletal muscle is infiltrated with extra substrates, it turns mar— it's like marbleized, like a marbleized steak. So you can have muscle, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's healthy. And it's called lipotoxicity.

So there's some like fat strains throughout the muscle. You don't want that.

No.

You want to be like the filet.

You want to be like the filet.

Of your muscle.

But it becomes very interesting when we think about, is it the amount of muscle? Well, you know, and I've thought about this a lot, and, you know, I'm actually working on my first book. And one of the things in clinical practice that I see, and of course every physician will tell you, is that they go in and we look at body fat percentage or BMI, which, arguably, you know, is kind of—

Is that the wrong metric? Is that the wrong metric we should be looking at?

Body mass index, it's the wrong metrics.

What should we be looking at?

Well, we should be looking at skeletal muscle. And there's ways in which we're beginning to look at it, and that's appendicular lean mass or skeletal mass index, but they're not perfect. And it's not the standard of care. The standard of care is always focused on the problem. It's what is your percent body fat? In fact, we don't even have great ways in which we measure skeletal muscle that are able to reach everybody. For example, the best way to do it would be an MRI or CT or even an ultrasound to look at the tissue quality. That's not feasible. Really? So we've made it very easy to look at fat tissue and we've become obsessed with fat, which arguably so, there's a reason it's hard to lose. Homogeneous, meaning, you know, typically a lot of your fat would look the same as mine, whereas skeletal muscle is different.

So how do we track it then? What's the best way? How do you do it?

Well, I use a bioimpedance, and that's—

Is that a machine?

Yes, it's a machine. It's the best thing that we have right now.

Does it scan your body?

It does. It scans your body. It's a bioelectrical impedance machine.

It's called bioimpedance.

Yep, BIA. And it's really interesting because when you look in the literature, there's variations. In terms of quality of machine, in terms of what, you know, what those measurements are. But the next phase, if we can shift from fat to muscle-centric, we can now start looking at important endpoints. What I mean by— yeah, important endpoints. So, for example, eventually, I hope, we'll be able to look at you and say, "Hey, Lewis Howes, this is how much muscle mass you should be for optimal health." And I'm not just talking about optimal health in the moment, I'm talking about your survivability. So someone will look at you and go, "Yeah, Lewis is healthy, he has enough muscle mass, he's doing great." Well, right now, in your 30s and your 40s, this is the time to build tissue. So the endpoints that we look at during these times of aging are gonna be different. So what does that mean specifically?

When you mean tissue, you mean muscle?

I mean muscle.

Okay.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Building it everywhere or focusing on the main muscle groups or—

I think that having a way of life that is functional is something that has become optional for us now. One of the reasons that is is because everything is easy. You can take the escalator. We are not required to do physical activity.

You can eat food whenever you want, as much sugar and calories as you want.

But before, we were forced. For movement. It was required to survive, right? So the endpoints and the skeletal muscle that we're looking at now, we don't necessarily know what the optimal skeletal muscle mass— we don't know.

So just build though and stay flexible, stay healthy, stay flexible, reduce inflammation, and understand that it is not about losing fat.

That is a losing— no pun intended— game. And if it were correct, we would have solved for it.

We're all, yeah, we're all obese. We would have solved for it. So instead of focusing on losing fat, we should be focusing on building muscle.

We should be focusing on building muscle. And again, the locomotion aspect of muscle is common and what everybody thinks about.

Okay.

That is only one component of what skeletal muscle is. Skeletal muscle is an endocrine organ.

Endocrine organ.

So for example, like the thyroid,. It secretes thyroid hormone. Uh-huh. Muscle is an organ. When you contract it, it secretes myokines.

Myokines.

Myokines, and these are proteins that go throughout the body and have impact on all tissues.

Not mitochondria.

No. I mean, muscle does have mitochondria, which is really important, but think of a myokine as, as you are exercising, you're actually secreting myokines.

Okay. And why is that important?

Why is it important? I'm so glad you asked. There's many different kinds of myokines, and I'm going to give you one example. Maybe I'll give you two. Interleukin-6 is the most well-studied myokine. And this comes from contracting skeletal muscle, and whether it is aerobic or resistance training, this amount increases 100-fold into the bloodstream. And this is work by Pedersen, and she, I believe, is in Copenhagen. Exercise physiologist, immunologist, physician kind of incorporating interface. Interleukin-6, when secreted from skeletal muscle, interfaces with the immune system. So macrophages are cells of the immune system that also secrete a cytokine. We've heard of cytokines. Okay. Interleukin-6, when it comes from macrophages, is a cytokine.

Okay.

This molecule, when it's secreted from skeletal muscle, is anti-inflammatory and helps regulate immune response as well as systemic inflammation.

And so this happens when you're building muscle.

When you are building muscle, when you are exercising. Let's think— let's talk about brain function. Exercising muscle releases BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor. Goes to the brain, goes to multiple areas of the body to make impact. Muscle is not just about fitness. It's the organ of longevity.

Mm.

It is responsible for the way in which we age and the pinnacle, not the peripheral. Right now, the way in which the current conversation is, We think about skeletal muscle and we think about exercise as something to look good in a bikini.

Yeah.

But that is only one small aspect of skeletal muscle. It is the metabolic regulator. When you think about Alzheimer's disease, type 3 diabetes of the brain—

Did you know muscle was the solution?

Yes, I did.

How did you know?

I happen to be trained by one of the world-leading protein experts. He's mentored me for 2 decades. His name is Dr. Donald Layman, and he is an academic Professor. He's a professor emeritus from University of Illinois. Wow. And he actually— some of the nutritional aspects are some things that he discovered. So he has been doing this for— he's going to be really angry at me—

like 40 years.

Yeah, yeah, 40 years. And, um, is really considered one of the finest researchers in this area. So I did my undergraduate with him. I did my undergraduate in human nutrition, vitamin mineral metabolism, and you know, worked on a lot of human studies, a lot of rodent studies. Sure. And he was focused on muscle. Very early on, I really thought about muscle as the pinnacle. But then you go through medical school, then you do a couple residencies, and then, you know, everything comes full circle and come back to nutrition and, yeah, building muscle, right? And then it comes full circle.

And because in medical school they didn't teach you any of that, right?

But I'd already been trained 5 years in nutritional sciences.

Gotcha, but they try to teach you everything else about like just treat the symptom with the medicine.

Which is a flaw, but important. Not the root. But is important because without having really credentialed training in that way, then I would miss the things that were really dangerous. Sure. I really valued that education, but I knew if I really cared about how I was going to move the needle for people, it had to be solution-oriented. Interesting. So muscle, so at this moment, I had this aha moment and realized that there's, There is a section of medicine that's obesity medicine.

Mm.

Why? Why do we not have muscle-centric medicine as a focal point if we know it improves all-cause mortality, if we know that we have half a century of research to know that it is going to improve your survivability? The more fit you are, the healthier your muscles.

Longevity, everything, yeah.

Longevity.

Exactly. Probably overall happiness too, you know.

Exactly.

Although there are some people who have a lot of muscle who haven't figured out the happiness thing. It doesn't mean it's the cure to happiness. It's not. But if you're releasing, uh, you're releasing hormones, right, from the brain, from the brain and through the body when you're building muscle.

You are. There are— yes, there are influences on your mood that are very important. So muscle really is the focal point, but it has been the most underappreciated organ in the entirety of medicine. And, you know, fitness professionals really have that right. And if we can just take the fitness professional with the medical community and interface and treat muscle like the organ that it is and really focus nutrition on Optimizing for skeletal muscle. And it's very specific. And, you know, it's really interesting. We really have the nutrition aspect wrong.

What do we think— what are we doing wrong about it?

Well, we are— you know, the current RDA for protein is 0.8 grams per kilogram. And people feel that that is the maximum, right? And I'm going to tell you why. When— well, first of all, I should ask you, do you feel like— when you think about protein, do you think— How much?

You probably think, "Maybe I should have less." I never think that I'm having too much protein. You don't? I don't think I have, like, a protein deficiency or something. But I also don't feel like, you know, I don't really know what I think about protein. I don't think anything. I think I'm just eating a lot of it.

Do you think, maybe?

Do we know?

Maybe, maybe not, I don't know. We don't know. So protein, the average American, okay, The average male consumes 100 grams of protein.

A day.

A day. Yeah. The average female is about 75 grams.

Okay.

I would argue—

Is that a lot? Is that a little?

We're gonna talk about it.

I would say— If you have too much, does it help you?

Does it hurt you?

So I would say that that is likely the minimum to prevent disease.

The minimum.

The minimum. So the RDA right now, I think this is a really important point that we have to clear up. Right now there's a lot of controversy surrounding protein. Would you agree?

I think controversy around all diets and nutrition in general.

Yes, you know what, you make a really good point. Yeah. The concept of food science, let's just take that for one second. When you think about food, you think about emotion, like your grandmother's cookies. You think about religion. Food is religious. You think about community, family, community, fam. What else you think about?

Friends, sports, parties, everything. So you think it's a social thing.

You think more about food and you don't necessarily think it's the biological absorption of nutrients.

Sure. I mean, I do, but I mean, yes, in general. Yeah.

Yes. So there's food and then there's science. And science we think about as reproducible hypotheses that we can provide and generate a body of evidence. So when you combine the two, it's almost— so food science is almost like the ultimate oxymoron. And there's so much controversy surrounding food nutrition. And part of it is, you know, and when we think about science, I don't think people argue about physics the way they argue about nutrition, do you? But it's a hard science. People don't argue about math or, you know—

I guess 'cause the science is evolving and changing with food, it seems like, over the years, right? True. There's new discoveries and new findings.

Yes, but are people arguing about biochemistry in general?

I guess not. No.

Yeah.

But— Is it 'cause there's more of an emotional connection to it?

Exactly. So it creates bias. People are unaware of their own biases around nutrition, including the food scientists. Right. It is no— think about it, if it was a non-emotional aspect—

People wouldn't be arguing.

Why would we argue? It would be a unifying kind of a thing, like, "Hey, there's traffic on the 405. What is the solution for that?" But food science is not that. And you know what, this dates back to— This is decades and decades and centuries old because it is emotional and emotion, nearly 100% of the time, skews the science. You know, I take care of patients in clinic and a lot of them come to me and are like, "This is so confusing, this whole protein aspect. And right now we're hearing that red meat is bad for you and we should reduce our protein intake." And I would say nothing could be further from the truth. And when you look back at the history, where did this come from? I mean, you can go back to World War II. And World War II, when we— when I wasn't around then, neither were you, but World War II, when rationing was put into place, they, well, number one, determined what is the amount of protein that we need to keep these soldiers alive.

Just alive.

Just, well, alive and healthy. Functional. Functional, right? So they had to figure out a way to feed over a million people. How are we gonna do this? So they, you know, the scientists got together and they looked at nitrogen balance studies. They're like, "Well, what's nitrogen balance?" Okay, I'll get there. Well, what they did was, you know, we have to understand nutrition science, like you pointed out, is new. It's ever-evolving. It was new then. 1940s. That's only 80-some years, like that's not that long ago. And in the 1940s, when they didn't— they were just discovering that there were different kinds of amino acids. At that time, they really just thought about protein, and they looked at these nitrogen balance studies. Nitrogen balance studies— nitrogen is an essential component to the human body, and typically we get it from dietary protein. And you— it's a very crude measurement, and it was extrapolated from animal and taken from animal husbandry, which is— we— they were trying to figure out how do we keep and feed these animals the cheapest way possible, which meant high amount of carbohydrates and as low amount of protein as possible to allow them to still grow. They then brought the way in which they were doing that over to humans, and typically young men, 18-year-old to 25-year-old men and say, "Okay, well, how much protein do you need to just survive?" And this is nitrogen balance. This is where, you know, in part, they started to understand that the amount of protein was maybe 0.8 grams per kilogram. Which, if you look at the literature in the 1970s and beyond, they estimated that they really missed the mark, that it was probably at least 20% higher. But they didn't understand the ways to look at it, right? I mean, nutrition science is new. Yet, 0.8 grams per kilogram, as we fast forward, during that time of rationing, they were feeding— and by the way, the average male, guess how much the average male weighed? Your mind is gonna be blown.

In 1940s?

In the '40s?

Yeah, yes.

Yeah. Average male in America. Mm-hmm. 170 pounds. 143 pounds was the average.

Yes. What about the average female?

Must have been like 90 then.

I don't know.

121 pounds.

Okay, really, really small people.

121 pounds, the average female. Okay, what's the average female now?

Great question.

We don't know. We don't know. We don't know.

Probably. Yeah, who knows.

But 100— and what was the men?

143 pounds.

That was the average size.

That's the average size. So they were feeding— It's tiny. It is tiny.

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So we went through a period of rationing, 1940s. They were physically, they were moving more, processed food wasn't totally happening. People were rationed on 3,000 calories a day. That was considered, people were hungry. 3,000 calories a day.

They were hungry at 3,000.

Yeah, it was the rationing books.

Is that where they got 3,000-calorie diet now?

Who knows? But if you go back and you look at some of these, I don't know about the new 3, whatever this diet is, but looking back, you know, as I'm writing my book, looking back at the history of why we are doing what we're doing, it becomes really important to see where we're repeating. So they were giving soldiers 1 pound of beef or 1 pound of meat a day at least. And they were rationed and sending the beef off to the soldiers, people to protect the world, right? It's World War II. There is some evidence which I was reading, like these older 1940 papers, that they were giving soldiers, as they were accounting these medical papers, what they were giving soldiers. They were giving an injured soldier 250 grams of protein a day, and they were reporting that their survivability and their ability to heal was increasing by 50%.

Wow.

Okay, in the 1940s. So they— there was some acknowledgment that dietary protein was so important and that it was good for you and it was valuable. In fact, it was so valuable that people were encouraged to dig Victory Gardens and go more vegetarian and go more plant-based to then send all the nutrient-rich foods over to the soldiers. Interesting. I thought it was really interesting as well. Then fast forward to now. Fast forward to now, 80 years later, what I am hearing as someone who is seeing patients and witnessing from a perspective that isn't, you know, bought into either way, right? It's not emotional. Um, I'm not against eating animals, and I am not really, you know, like, there's not a moral kind of a confusion for me in that way because I know how important it is for human health. It's almost fast forward now, according to the NHANES data, we are 70% plant-based right now. And we are being encouraged by the mass media to consume less animal products.

Why are some of the longevity experts who talk about mitochondria and telomeres and all these other things— Yeah, yeah. That they— they're— I guess they're saying that the studies are showing the more plants you have, the longer your telomeres. And if you're eating more meat, maybe it doesn't work as much.

Let's talk. I love— I'm so glad.

Show me the studies.

Yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, um, let's define longevity. Okay. Longevity is defined as what?

Living as long as you can, I guess. Yeah, right. Living longer than expected.

Okay, so that— and living healthy Okay, so, but now that's not longevity. So now that is a healthspan issue and not longevity. And I think we have to be very careful about how we talk about longevity. Are we talking about living 6 hours longer? Are we talking about living 6 weeks longer? What does that mean? And I will tell you, as a trained geriatrician from WashU, it is about the quality of your life.

Yeah, you don't want to suffer for 10 years.

Nothing— is going to determine more quality than muscle. Because you must be able to do your activities of daily living. You must be able to be mobile. You must be able to do the things that were once, that you once had the capacity for your own autonomy. Now, and let's take a look at the Longevity Expert, or whatever we mean by that. That. The one thing that we know and have control over, right, directly, is what we eat and how we move, right? In order to protect muscle, you need high-quality protein. This is in the literature.

You can't build muscle without protein.

No, you cannot. It would be very difficult.

Just carbs, or—

it would be There is an essential, a need. So protein is an essential nutrient. There are 20 amino acids, and of those 20, there are 9 essential, and you must get those 9 essentials. Now, I will say that of those 9 essentials, you require— and I'm so glad you brought this up because in those early nitrogen studies and the RDA now, It is not taking into account that we have individual amino acid needs. It is looking at protein as a whole.

Mm-hmm.

That is incorrect. I just mentioned that there are 20 different amino acids. The information on nutrition as it relates to protein is archaic.

Yeah.

When you look at the back of a label, you will see carbohydrates, and carbohydrates will be broken down into sugars and fibers and all kinds of things. You look at the back of a nutrient label and you'll see fat, and fat will be broken down into, you know, whether it's, you know, trans fats or saturated fats or whatever. You look at the label and it says protein, but not all protein is equal. Let's— let me give you an example.

What's the highest grade of protein? What's the lowest?

So eggs would be considered considered one of the highest forms of protein. Eggs, beef, chicken, fish, whey protein is the gold standard.

Whey?

Yes. Not plant protein? No. Why? And listen, so when we— plants are notoriously low in the essential amino acids. Really? They are. You can eat a diet that is plant-based, but you will require 35% more calories. So for example, let's say you wanted to get your protein from quinoa. You would need 6 cups of quinoa to equal the amino acid profile of 1 small chicken breast.

Mm-hmm.

That is a metabolic disaster.

Mm, why?

Because in order to stimulate muscle, you need the essential amino acids. Well, you need all the amino acids. But in order to stimulate muscle, you need one of the branched-chain amino acids. Now branched-chain amino acids, they're leucine, isoleucine, and valine. Leucine is necessary in a meal threshold amount to stimulate muscle. And you're like, well, the listener's like, well, what does that mean? That means you need to get 30 grams at a minimum as you age to stimulate muscle tissue because you need 2.5 grams of leucine. And this, you know, I earlier talked about Don Layman. These were some of his discoveries. This is his contribution to science is that we have an amino acid meal need of leucine, which eludes people. Let's say you are going to have 15 grams of a protein for breakfast, 15 grams of a protein for lunch and then 15 grams of protein for dinner and the majority of the rest of your meal was carbs and fat, you will not stimulate muscle.

Mm. So you need more protein to stimulate muscle.

It either happens or it doesn't. From a nutritional perspective, you require a certain bolus amount at one time to reach the bloodstream. That is 2.5 grams of leucine to begin this as you age. If you are eating subthreshold, you will not stimulate the tissue nutritionally.

What do you say to the people that— these like athletes that were extreme meat eaters, yeah, then went plant-based, yeah, and they talk about how they're, they're stronger, they recover better, they sleep better. What do you say to some of those cases that are out there of these athletes?

I would say everyone is individual and If they feel better, that's great. I would say that the science doesn't support that in that way. Sure. From a muscle recovery, from a body mass, body size, skeletal muscle size. But again, everyone is individual.

Right.

And I wanna be very clear that I am not anti-plant. Right. I'm not. And I am not at one extreme or the other. I do believe in eating high-quality protein. I know it's important. And I think what's happened now, and part of the reason I was so excited to come and talk to you, is that what we need in order to have a healthy world is we need transparent conversations.

So you're not extreme either way. You're saying, where's the science?

I am saying—

How do we lean into the science?

I'm saying, what is the truth?

Yes.

Supported by the science. What do we know to be true? And then we can make decisions. Whether an individual is plant-based or an individual is eating a high-protein diet, which I believe in because I've seen it for decades and also it's in the literature, high-quality evidence in the literature. I believe that to be true. And what's happened now is—

You're saying it's also hard to be high-protein diet plant-based.

Difficult, and it can be done, but it needs to have very careful, you know, nutrient complex. Or, you know, again, it's not just about a macronutrient. Food is a matrix. You know, for example, in beef there's creatine, there's components that you won't get from plants. In beef, you cannot get it otherwise. There's no creatine in plant products.

Really?

No, it comes from come from meat, right? By the bioavailability of iron is much higher in red meat. B vitamins, zinc, these are things that are what is offered. Sure. Taurine, these—

they're not in plants.

They're just not in plants. So we have to be able to have intelligent conversations, and right now what we hear is a lot of narrative and a lot of Don't eat meat because it's bad for the planet. Well, the reality is, if we, in the US, if we care about global warming and we really look at what are the biggest drivers, we're looking at 80% is industry, electricity, and transportation. This makes up a huge chunk, 80-some percent or more. Agriculture in the US makes up what? Maybe 9%?

Right.

Wait, maybe 9%. Of that 9%, how much do you think is related to cattle or animal? Maybe it's 3%. So what are we talking about? So the statistics is just not— it is a lot of discussion when the reality is if you look at this book, right? So there's a book here and you take one sheet of paper and that's the entire world. Okay, and then you fold it down to a postcard, like let's say it's half that. So the entire world, the landmass, is one postcard. You take that one postcard and you give me your business card, Lewis, and you say, okay, here's my business card. Now we tear it two-thirds and one-third. Okay, so we're now down to— we're talking about landmass— we're now down to one business card, and two-thirds of that business card is called marginal land, which means We can't grow anything on it. It can only be used for cattle. One-third of that land can be farmed. So I bring the point up to this saying, are we looking at the right things? If you care about the environment and you live in Minnesota, then you shouldn't eat avocados. And why? Because of transportation. Right. So those are ways that individuals can make a big impact rather than reducing high-quality nutrients because ultimately, you know, you live in a beautiful area, you're on the coast, and, you know, I'm on the other coast, but it's the people in the middle that we affect the most. So if we tell people to go more plant-based, which they're already eating 70% plants— this is according to the NHANES data— right now people are eating 70% plant-based. Who is it going to affect?

Well, I guess if you're focusing on your vision, which is to help people live a healthier, longer life, you need more quality protein. You do, based on the evidence. Yes. And so it's not about having less or more plants, it's about having more quality protein to build skeletal muscle. Yes.

If you want to eat more plants, eat as much plants as you want.

Go right ahead.

But it's also make sure you get the quality protein is what I'm hearing you say. Yeah. Because that is one of the main factors to healthy longevity.

And healthy aging.

And healthy aging.

And we need more protein as we age. Not less. We actually require more protein.

To build the muscle, to stay healthy.

To maintain it, to just keep it. So basically, if you don't stimulate that tissue, right? You lose it. You're going to lose it.

And it's harder to gain it back when you're 50, 60, 70.

I mean, I wouldn't know, but yes, yeah, yes. If we take the narrative that we are looking at right now, eat less protein, eat less red meat, do all these things. While you are young, you have a much greater margin of error.

What about the inflammation or disease conversation around, I guess, whey with milk, you know, milk products and dairy? I grew up drinking about, I don't know, 8 glasses of milk a day.

Okay.

Grew up in Ohio. I think it's the reason I'm a foot taller than everyone in my family because of the hormones probably in the milk and the beef and everything I was eating. But I also had a runny nose every day. Every day. So this is something separate, and it was like inflammation from the milk and from these types of proteins potentially, um, or maybe there's a number of causes, but I got rid of the milk and I got rid of the—

so that's just one source of protein. Sure, right. And milk, we know, is a— is really— I mean, I personally don't drink milk, but dairy is really important. Dairy is very bioavailable for the bones. A lot of people don't tolerate it, but to, to—

right.

You know, I'm not sure that we can equate that with inflammation. So you can equate that with mucus production, but perhaps not inflammation.

Does any red meats cause inflammation?

There is no quality evidence to support that.

Okay.

And I will tell you—

There's suggestion, but not evidence.

So you bring up a really good point.

Or clogging arteries or these types of conversations.

Absolutely not. When calories are corrected, absolutely not.

What do you mean calories? Calories corrected.

The biggest driver of inflammation and obesity is excess calories.

Too many calories.

It's— yeah, it's, it's not protein and it's not red meat.

It's probably sugary drinks and it is sugar.

It is excess. It, you know, it is not inherently bad if you have, if you have healthy muscle.

It's not inherently bad because your muscle will be able to process it and just flush it.

So let's, let's go back to red meat being bad for you. There was a series of papers in the Annals of Internal Medicine by a head researcher named Bradley Johnston, and this— he looked at a tremendously large number of people, and he questioned, well, should we reduce the amount of red meat that we're eating? And right now, I think on average, people are eating 1.6 to 1.8 ounces a day. Do you think that's a lot?

It's not that much.

That's like, that's like this much.

Yeah.

Okay, so to say that we need, you know, so are— is this data true? Is— do we really need and believe these negative influences that we're hearing? So he went through the literature and he, he did something and put it through something called the GRADE system. The GRADE system is the global gold standard for evaluating evidence. Doesn't get better than that. And do you know what he found? That there was no reason for us to be cutting back our red meat consumption. Mm, interesting. And it created so many issues.

When was this?

This was 2019.

Okay, interesting.

Pretty recent. They went after him, people went after him. They tried to not get it published. Wow. They were, people were so up in arms. Again, food science. Sure, sure. We should just call it, we should replace this with something else.

Emotion.

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And they were so up in arms, and we have yet to see one randomized control trial with humans to support red meat being bad. It doesn't exist. There's a lot of epidemiology data talking about, you know, this is where all that, information comes from, but epidemiology is not high-quality data. And we have many randomized controlled trials talking about the importance of protein, whether it's from Don Layman's lab or Stu Phillips or Doug Patton Jones or Kevin Tipton. These guys are like people that have been looking at it, or Heather Leidy, these— there are some really good researchers out there. That are putting together information that's available. And again, it's not to say that plant is bad or animal is bad. The point is we must have transparent conversations. So if the evidence is in fact that this is bad, that red meat is bad or that protein is bad, we should be able to prove that.

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And I guess the only thing I go back to is the, the Blue Zone, I guess, research of mostly plant-based vegans who are living.

I was, I was pretty sure that they eat fish or something, or I'm pretty sure that they eat protein. And I'm pretty sure that—

for meat?

Or—

yeah, really.

I mean, I haven't looked at some—

at all of it, but, uh, I guess that would be my only thought is like, I don't know 100% of it, but I know it was mostly vegetarian is what I was— what I thought.

But yes, and but the question then becomes is how can you contribute that to one thing?

Yeah, exactly, right?

How can we say that? But also we have randomized clinical trials to support the evidence in the opposite. That we know if you are aging, that you need 1.6 grams per kilogram. So that is replicatable, that is in the literature. Do you know that if someone is 65 and up and falls, she has a 50% chance of never walking again? Wow. If you put her on a—

Is it because of muscle or is it because of—

Yes, muscle.

And because if you have weak muscle, —then is your bones gonna be a lot weaker, I'm assuming?

Is it gonna be harder to recover? Yes, but you are definitely not going to recover the way that you should. Again, we have to talk, we have to go back to Blue Zones. Blue Zones is epidemiology data. So we should be able to take that information and put it through the rigors of science. And the rigors of science support a higher protein diet for aging.

If someone is above 60 or 70 right now and they're listening to this and they've been, maybe they haven't been well with their diet or their working out at all. They're just kind of like living and a little obese and have some minor health challenges. What can they be doing right now for over 60 to try to live a better, healthier, longer life?

Well, let's pretend they're not over 60, but we'll go there. Let's pretend they're 35 or 40 and they are slightly or obese and they have a couple number of health problems and, you know, they're all in the— you know, because we're all in this together. What are we going to tell this person? Here's what I'm going to tell them. I'm going to say, okay, the first thing that we need to focus on is metabolic correction. And we're going to do that by optimizing your protein. So you are a— you know, what are they? They're probably not eating a ton and— or maybe they're eating a lot of carbohydrates. I'm going to say, well, The first thing we're going to do is I'm going to say we are going to ideally— and again, they might not do this— 1 gram per pound ideal body weight, which if this person is 150 pounds, it would be 150 grams of protein. That is high, right? That is on the higher end. So this guy might be like, I don't want to do that. I'm gonna say, you know what, that's fine. Here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna focus on metabolic correction, so I am gonna start you at 3 meals a day. I don't care when your first meal is, but that first meal after you are coming out of a fast is the most important. Mm. And you are going to optimize that for dietary protein. Mm, interesting. And the reason it's the most important is because they are catabolic, they are fasting. At that moment, if we get that threshold, that nutrition, that protein threshold right, you will stimulate their muscle.

Mm, so what should be eating the first meal of the day?

So that could be, I would want them to hit 40 to 50 grams of protein. Really? And that could be a whey protein shake, which you could probably get a little bit less. It could be a beef patty. It could be eggs.

Chicken and eggs. It could be chicken and eggs.

It could be whatever.

Okay, 40, 50 grams of protein your first meal.

Just get that right. Just if any of the, if the listener would do that for me.

No matter how big your, No matter how big or—

that's right.

40 to 50 grams. If you're 150 pounds or 250 pounds, just try to get in that range.

Yeah, I mean, listen, could it be between 30 and 50? Yes. Okay, gotcha. Between 30 and 50 would be great. If you are older, you know, if you are that 60 plus, you know, the muscle goes through a normal physiological change called anabolic resistance. You want to push their protein a little bit higher. If you are younger like you, you could probably get away with 30 to 40 grams of protein.

Okay. Do you want to— does it matter if you work out first in the morning or fast for 5 hours in the morning? Doesn't matter. Just your first meal when you eat, when you— after you wake up, whether it's right away or 10 hours later, right?

That first meal should be optimized for protein. Okay. And I would argue that, that if it— that meal is not around training, our target carbohydrate load, and if they're not training, would be 40 grams or less that first meal. So you keep the carbohydrates lower that first meal. The reason is, is it ends up being about a 1-to-1 ratio of, you know, if they want—

Hard to say more or less. Or even less.

It would be less, right? Because anything really above the 50 grams of carbohydrates creates a more robust insulin response. A spike, yeah. And you don't want that. For your first meal, you want that first meal to be very smooth and stable. And not only that, and Heather Leidy, who I had mentioned earlier, has done some very interesting fMRI research that, you know, one of the things that protein does is it's very satiating. And I always tell patients not to worry about their strengths, but to plan for their weaknesses. And when you augment willpower by leveraging dietary protein, You plan for it. You're much less likely to overeat. Right. So you nail that 40 grams of protein first, maybe a little bit lower carbs and some fat. Then that next meal is maybe 4 or 5 hours later, right? So you stimulate muscle, you now have robustly stimulated muscle. That next meal will be another— again, depending on what you need, I like to target around 30 grams at a minimum. Protein. Yeah. Okay. The data, you know, it's interesting. So a lot of the literature doesn't actually support much discussion on that lunch meal. It's really that first meal. And then, but again, if we're talking about maintaining healthy skeletal muscle, we're also talking about maintaining blood sugar, right? Compliance is really important. Protein, it's very hard to store protein as fat. There's a high thermic effect of food, meaning it takes more energy to utilize it. And part of the reason, I believe, is because it stimulates muscle. So it takes anywhere from 20% of the food that you eat, right, to actually— it takes 20% of that energy. So if you're eating 100 calories of protein, you know, there is some contribution to that. Then that last meal of the day, I would say I would make that more robust. Again, that 40 to 50 grams. And any listener could do this. The younger you are, you can— you know, muscle is typically healthier, you can get away with a little bit less. The older you are, the more protein you need at once to overcome anabolic resistance. You know, skeletal muscle is fascinating, in case you were wondering what I really thought about it. It's actually a nutrient sensor. It senses our nutrients. And it senses leucine. Senses what? Leucine, which is that amino acid. And that's really how we need to think about protein is we really need to understand that protein requirement as we age is really about a meal threshold. 24-hour protein is very important. Secondarily, having protein in discrete meals is incredibly valuable because if you don't, you won't stimulate your tissue. Sure. And as you age, that tissue becomes more marbled with fat, you know, it becomes more challenging. The other thing is resistance exercise is another way to stimulate tissue. And this is where you get with a great trainer. I know I typically recommend between 3 and 4 sessions of resistance exercise resistance exercise a week. But, again, having someone evaluate you as it relates to training. And then another thing that's overlooked is mitochondria. And that's really the cardiovascular aspect. And the current recommendation is 150 minutes of moderate to vigorous activity now. And I think, as, you know, again, we're very split, people are really into resistance training. Or they're really into cardio. But when we think about longevity, we must address both.

Is cardio— when I think of cardio, I think more about people trying to lose weight.

Right, that's not a great strategy.

Is it helping you build muscle when you are just running and riding a bike?

I mean, not really. I mean, muscle to grow requires metabolic stress, requires mechanical tension. Exactly. For ribosomal biogenesis, protein, and calories.

Then why do people focus so much on cardio? Is it for heart health? Is it for other benefits?

Yes. I believe that, number one, it's very easy to do. You don't have to have advanced knowledge of training protocol. Machine, some equipment. And that's hard. That's hard for people. There is that barrier to entry. Cardiovascular, a lot of the literature, a lot of the data has always been done on cardio. Again, because it's easy, you know, you first use rodent models, then you transition to humans. But cardiovascular activity is very valuable as it relates to mitochondrial function, as it relates to energy, and there's a natural decline as we age. Again, aging doesn't get easier. Sure. But being able to be strong and capable and optimizing for dietary protein will be the ultimate in longevity. And there's so much confusion about the narrative that my fear is, you know, when you address it in your later life, you're missing this huge opportunity midlife. Alzheimer's, cardiovascular disease, they don't develop later in life. They start in your 30s. When I was looking at that participant's brain, when I was looking— we'll just call her Sarah— when I was looking at Sarah's brain, It didn't start then. It started in her 30s.

From nutrition or from— Yes.

Wow. From excess, from being overweight. You know, had she built muscle, it would have been a metabolic buffer. Right. You know, when you look at diseases of aging, it's not the aging. These diseases like Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, these start in your 30s. Sarcopenia, which is the big one where— You know, sarcopenia is loss of muscle mass and function, you know, which is— we see people get much smaller. That doesn't start then, right? It starts much earlier. So if you eat the way that you did in your 20s, you have no chance of protecting your muscle. The changes will be subtle until one day they're not. You just start shrinking and getting weaker, and you have increased in adipose tissue, you now fall into the general category of one of the millions that are overweight, have high blood sugar, insulin resistance, you name it. And it's something that happens over time. And if we continue the conversation that is very distracted about, "Well, we'll take this and we'll take this." and we'll do that as opposed to do the foundational things that we have direct control over, which is train hard, optimize and prioritize for a protein-forward plan. You do those fundamental things, everything else is gravy.

That's it. So if you focus on protein and you train consistently, you should be— Able to protect your muscle. And it sounds like eliminate a lot of the health problems or risks that could come your way.

This is the ultimate in a muscle-centric approach.

Because you don't see a lot of people with muscle getting really sick.

Well, that's true. And if they did, their ability to survive, you can think of muscle— They would recover, right? Yes, muscle is the body armor. Muscle is an individual's body armor.

What about for women who are like, "Well, I don't wanna look that muscular." You know, that is that, you know, it's so funny, right? It's like when I lift heavy weights, I'm gonna get big and bulky is the big thing for women.

You show me one woman that that has ever happened to. That doesn't happen by mistake where they get big and bold. It doesn't happen. You know how difficult that is training for this? Absolutely. I think what's more impressive is the midlife muscle crisis. You know, people hit 40 and they're like, oh my God, what happened to me? What happened to my body? There are changes that happen to skeletal muscle. And that is really powerful and really important to address. You know, if you don't hit those meal thresholds, you don't stimulate the tissue. It's a non-negotiable.

What about the whole, um, conversation around fasting these days? Okay, so many people are focused on fasting, or at least, yeah, fasted windows of eating, or, you know, 16:8, or, uh, or spending 2 days fasting, or 24-hour fast for longevity, right? Is there a benefit to fasting consistently, or a benefit to fasting once in a while to help with overall health, functionality, and longevity?

The idea, from my perspective, fasting is a tool. Fasting is a tool that helps maintain weight. It's not— it's not magic. It's not magic.

You shouldn't need it if you're just—

there are many other ways to implement supplement stressors in the body that could possibly promote stress enough to help promote longevity. But again, the question is, what is the benefit? Could someone use time-restricted feeding? Absolutely. Could someone go through periods of lower protein? Absolutely. There's a, you know, a stress response that can happen. Does that mean that that is a way of life? Not necessarily. There's nothing wrong with eating in an 8-hour window, right? It does allow for calorie control. You can still meet your protein needs. You can still optimize for protein. I will say the older— you know, my dad, he's 70— 73, sorry, Dad, maybe you're 74. And he lives in Ecuador. He walks everywhere and he fasts. He won't get into a car if it is 4 hours or less. And he's gonna correct me, he's gonna be like, I think it's 3. He will not— if he can walk there in 3 hours, he'll walk there. Wow. He has this cutoff, right? He was a mathematician by training. Yeah, anyway. And he went through periods of fasting, like really long fasting. When you are older, we must understand if you are going to fast and that destroys skeletal muscle, right? There's no free lunch. It becomes much more difficult to get that back. Right? It becomes much more difficult. So if an individual wants to fast, first of all, there's nothing wrong with time-restricted feeding, the 16:8 like you were talking about, eating in an 8-hour window. Again, that's a tool for weight loss. As it relates to optimizing for skeletal muscle, can someone fast and optimize for skeletal muscle for 2 days or 3 days? I think that perhaps when I think about longevity, I would say there's a way in which you can implement all of these, but my primary focus would be to protect muscle at all costs.

Yeah. So your dad— my mom's early 70s— what, what recommendation would you have for him or her to be focusing on in your 70s?

Then he eats 2 very large meals with high protein, so he hits 50, minimum of 50 grams.

Is he lifting also? He does lift. It's just more resistance bands, or is it—

he does a lot of push-ups, he does a lot of walking, and he does lift, but he hates being inside. He's very much a— it's interesting, he, he went to Wharton and graduated top of his class, but the guy is like a mountain man. Interesting. He's a mountain man.

He lives in Ecuador now.

He lives in Ecuador, goes spend time— he like spends time in the jungle. Oh, he's cool. He's very cool. That's fun. For him, he eats a high-protein diet. He's very focused on longevity. He's very focused on mental health. He is, you know, he doesn't eat any processed foods and he doesn't snack. So he sticks to those two main meals, high protein, eats fat.

Why is it so hard for people to not snack? Habit.

You have to train yourself. You have to train it. And this goes back to be prepared for your weaknesses. Nobody gets better if they're preparing for their strengths. Right. If you know that you are a snacker, then there are rules in place where you're not able to do it.

Right. Sounds like you married a Navy SEAL. Oh yeah, I did. Train for your weaknesses.

You know what's really funny is that as I'm sitting here writing my book and I'm like, honey, you know, I have two very little children. I'm like, gosh, this is so hard. To get this done. And he's like, well, honey, I am like waking up at 5 to start writing before I then go train and then get the babies ready. He's like, well, you know, if it's important enough to you, you'll do it. You should just wake up earlier. Oh my gosh. He's like, you should just wake up. It's so hard. It's so hard. You should just wake up at 4.

It means you got to go to bed at like 8, right? Because sleep is just important for recovery, for muscle growth, for all these things, isn't it?

For brain function. That's when the brain cleans itself. That was, you know, when we were analyzing patients for risk of Alzheimer's, those kinds of cognitive deficits, one of the questions that we always asked was, you know, that's part of a fellow's job is to run and participate in geriatric neurocognitive clinics. Do you sleep with your phone by your head? And do you get sleep? These are all risk factors for cognitive impairment and dementia.

Really? Sleep with the phone right next to you? How many people sleep with it on their bed? A lot.

Do not. You should not. Yeah, that is a bad strategy.

Yeah, that's a bad strategy. Do people sleep with it on the bed?

I shouldn't be actually within 4 feet of your head.

4 feet of your head? Oh, wow. Interesting. Maybe mine is right at 4 feet. I got to move it out a little farther away. Um, yeah, sleep is huge. How important is sleep for protein or muscle growth? And I guess for protein to be able to be assimilated into the muscle.

I mean, we know that sleep is necessary for growth and recovery. Humans, you know, it's interesting, we don't necessarily know what happens so much when we sleep, but we know, you know, when you look at night shift workers, when you change that circadian clock. When I used to do rounds at the hospital, I would listen to a lot of the nurses that then had shifted to nights. They would eat the same and they actually gained weight. Oh, man. Because it changes the way in which glucose metabolism works. Everything, huh? Cortisol. They ate the same diet.

The night shift has got to be the worst thing for people.

They believe it's a cancer risk too.

What was the biggest lesson you learned from working with people who were on their deathbed, really?

Have really good relationships and care about your family. Yeah, you know, it was so interesting to see that one of— they— the majority of the patients, they weren't like angry. They had accepted it, and they all wanted to see a family member. Wow. You know, they really cared, and it didn't matter if there had been gripes in the past. It was like, you know, life is so short and fragile You know, they're ready to let it go and just switch. Yeah. And so the biggest lesson is why not do that sooner, just in general? You know, the things that we feel that are important, make them important. Do it now. Yeah. And don't be so distracted. I feel right now individuals are very distracted from the things that are actually truly important, and it's the distraction that makes us miss the moment. And that moment is not just moment within the dynamic of a family, but it's within, you know, the moments of health and comparison to other people. If, you know, really just tuning out those distractions and executing forward, I think is really important. Yeah.

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So what is the main thing for you is protein and muscle and muscle and muscle and reframing.

We got that. We got the paradigm of thinking wrong. Fat is a symptom of impaired muscle. We have completely missed the mark. And if we can prioritize muscle, we can change the trajectory of aging. We can protect people. When we really talk about longevity, it's muscle that matters. And we are so far behind from understanding, evaluating those endpoints that if we care, we must impart nutritional strategies and execute on them.

If this is so important and really the main thing, why are not that many people talking about this? Why is it not talked about in general?

It's hard, right? It's hard. It is.

Well, here's the thing. I mean, I remember again playing sports and growing up, it was all about protein and muscle, right? That was what I was talking about, right?

And that's where it stays, and that's where it lives. It is in this nebulous world of the '20s flexing muscle in the gym, which is a mistake. That's where it still lives. And if we can understand that muscle is so much more than looking good in a bikini or looking good on the beach, that it is actually this endocrine organ and the organ of longevity, if we can interface the two, you know, like I told you before, how it helps modulate and it makes an impact on immune regulation, we must protect it at all costs.

Protect your muscle, protect your protein.

So why is it not talked about? I think because it is— I think for two reasons. Number one, we are so fixated on symptomology in medicine as opposed to root cause. And truly, muscle is root cause. It's difficult to measure. It challenges the paradigm of thinking. You know, there's that part. And then the other part is it is Then we talk about the food science is completely convoluted. There are narratives and agendas above and beyond what the average person is thinking about and what the average scientist or physician is understanding. There are much bigger players at work.

And if someone is vegan, they can still be plant-based and try to focus on getting more protein.

Must, you can absolutely. Be vegan and do these things and get protein. You must get more iron, you must get more creatine, you must think about how you're going to get your omegas and your fat-soluble vitamins and bioavailable nutrients.

It's so funny you're talking about creatine because, uh, what was it, Dr. Andy, uh, Galpin? Yes, he was on here. Andy is a phenomenal scientist and he was talking about creatine and it was probably the first time I heard about creatine since I was like 25 or and I was like, he was like, creatine is the supplement. He's like, if you're gonna take something— It protects your brain. Creatine for everything. And I was like, really? I was like, I feel like this is what we did in high school. You know, you just drank the creatine.

Isn't that interesting? The people that don't really need, so muscle is very—

We didn't need it 'cause we had human growth hormone. We were just like— When you're young, exactly.

But there is this transition that happens where insulin is no longer a growth promoter. You don't get higher. You get wider, the hormones and these anabolic hormones decrease. You must account for that by optimizing for, for protein because you have to trigger that muscle.

And it sounds like if you're, if you're doing this, you're eating more protein, you're, you're training with resistance training and building muscle, you're going to burn fat.

You will, yes.

You're going to be burning fat.

Yes, we might— you will be Yes, and you will improve body composition, your body composition.

You'll look better and you'll have more energy. You maintain your blood sugar better, and it sounds like you'll create metabolic health, uh, correction also when you're starting to increase this. Yeah, and your metabolism will start to work in your favor by continually, I guess, burning fat. But really it's not burning fat, it's just building muscle, which is— is it kind of integrating the fat throughout in a different way?

So building muscle in and of itself is a highly metabolically challenging feat.

And it'll just naturally get the fat to burn away.

And you will be training and you will correct for calories, right? So you're not gonna be over-consuming calories. You optimize for protein. It's very hard to over-consume protein. Protein in and of itself is not easily stored. There are so many reasons to prioritize for protein. And I have to say, Can you be protein deficient?

Of course you can.

Of course you can.

And what happens if you don't have enough protein?

I mean, those are the times when we saw Kwashiorkor, right? Kwashiorkor with the big bellies, this muscle, you know, protein wasting. There are subtle levels, there's all kinds of degrees of deficiency. You will utilize the skeletal muscle that you have. As you move into more depletion, You'll find your hair falls out, your hormones will go, you might have fractures or bone issues, your teeth, right? Bone is made from protein, 40% protein. Wow. There are all kinds of problems that will begin on a subtle level.

Yeah. Protein and muscle, protein and muscle. So what supplements would you recommend then?

Creatine is one? I think creatine is phenomenal. I think fish oil is phenomenal. I think vitamin D, there are vitamin D receptors on muscle. I think that that's really important. I think having a great multivitamin— and someone's going to say, if you are— and I would say, if you are vegan or vegetarian, having either an essential amino acid profile or adding in a straight branched-chain amino acid mix of leucine, isoleucine, and valine to a lower protein meal, one scoop, 5 grams, would be very beneficial because now you raise that amino acid threshold. Remember, we're not just talking about protein in a 24-hour period. We are talking about and advancing the conversation to a meal requirement. Every meal having protein. Well, it—

Well, every day consistently having it, yes.

Consistently, it's not, right? It's a daily need. A daily need. And it's about at least getting those 2 meals corrected for higher protein.

Now, what about protein shakes, protein bars? Great. And just protein from food. Does it matter where you get it from?

It doesn't, but remember protein in a matrix whole food is phenomenal because, for example, there's, for example, we'll take beef 'cause you're talking about creatine. There's creatine in beef. There's taurine, there's B vitamins, there's iron. Shakes are also great. If it's a plant-based shake, you need to make sure it has at least 2.5 grams of leucine leucine, or you need to—

leucine is a supplement you buy, or I would not—

it should be in there. You want to supplement all the branched chains because they deplete each. So if you just use one, then it doesn't totally work. You deplete the others. But again, remember when I told you about looking at the label? At the very end, it just says protein, but protein is much more than that one line. It's 20 amino acids. And we must account for those 9 essential that we need. A branched-chain amino acid added to, say, a plant-based shake is doable if it hasn't been corrected for those amino acids. A whey protein shake, a protein bar— typically those are a little lower in protein, but there are great bars that hit at least 30 grams.

So the powder with the— in the shake is usually better.

And also remember the quality. Quality of protein matters. A plant-based protein has lower amounts of those essential amino acids. So the way in which you overcome that is you may need a bar and a half, as long as your calories can manage that.

What's the best protein powder out there? Whether it's, I don't know if it's a specific brand, but just like, is it whey, is it, you know, is it isolate, is it?

I work with a company called First Form. They're amazing. Oh yeah, Andy's group. Yeah. Amazing company. They make amazing whey. They make a natural whey, which is what I use and I recommend.

Natural whey. Yeah. As opposed to unnatural whey?

Just depends on what you like, like flavor-wise. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for me, that's what—

No taste. Yeah, yeah. No flavor. Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. But a whey protein is what you're saying is probably the better way.

Yes. And for people that cannot tolerate whey, like you said, some people can't. That's where you would do a plant-based shake. There are other kind of animal-based shakes that are great and you can try those. Just make sure— so collagen is not a complete protein. So I don't— I think collagen is amazing, but collagen does not count towards overall protein intake because it is deficient in tryptophan and extraordinarily low in branched-chain amino acids.

Is it good to throw in your shake though?

Sure. Yes, I mean, I always throw it in. What do you put in your shake? I put in, well, I mean, so I mostly don't eat, I mostly eat my food. Uh-huh, you don't shake your food? Not usually, but I do put collagen in my coffee. Okay. If I'm having a shake, I'll do 1 scoop of whey and then 1 scoop of collagen or a scoop and a half of whey. I don't really do a lot of fruits early on.

Could you do too much? Could I do 4 scoops and it's like, okay, now it's just like—

stomach might hurt, and you'll use all of it. That's a myth where, you know, you only— you absorb and utilize all of it. For a muscle perspective, you probably won't get more benefit or much more benefit over 50 to 55 grams, but it doesn't mean that it is a waste. It's not interesting.

Yeah. Okay, so if they say use one scoop, should you do a scoop and a half?

Why not? Okay, why not?

You at least want 40, 30 to 40 grams of protein. At least.

Yeah, why not? And again, it's not the protein because there's— you could say, "I just ate 30 grams of soy protein." That's not the same. It's the amino acids that matter.

It's quality protein. What if we eat a lot of protein but we never work out?

That's really not a great strategy, but I don't think it will protect your muscle. But you should train, right? You should. Is there benefit? Yes, because number one, like I'd mentioned before, protein is hard to store as fat.

So it doesn't convert into fat as much. It's very difficult to store. Even if I don't work out at all?

That's— yes, it would be very difficult. But again, we're not just eating protein in and of itself. You're eating, you know, whatever it is. Sugar, carbs, and all that. You're eating all this other stuff. But I don't think that we should think about it in this dichotomous way. You should be resistance training. You should be eating your protein. And I think when we think about longevity and we think about overall health, we must shift the conversation to muscle.

Mm, okay. Well, I'm glad I'm working out. And I'm glad I'm working out and eating protein. So, got to do more of it. Anything else we should be aware of that you think is important to talk about? Or you feel like we covered a lot of it?

I think we covered a lot of stuff. There's a few things I would love to share with your listener. Go ahead. I am launching my, the Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Show. Okay. And the goal of my show will be to have these kind of transparent conversations.

Nice, okay.

And it's really dedicated to the listener and it's dedicated to their education and their understanding and really their strength.

Where can they watch or listen?

Well, they can go over to my YouTube. It's gonna be a show like yours, dual show, so it will be YouTube and on all the Spotify, all that. When's it coming out? Well, I— soon, hopefully. Yeah, it would be within the next month. Everything is set up. We did an amazing studio setup.

That's great, that's great. And if they follow you on social media, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon on Twitter, Instagram, or your website, drgabriellelyon.com, then they'll get that information as well there, right?

And of course Of course, if they would like to be a patient, they can apply to be a patient unless they—

On your website?

Yep. Okay. Unless they know someone, we do typically do it by referral.

Okay, cool. Yeah. And so that's coming out. You got it, you're working on a book so people can look out for that as well.

That's a while. Yeah, yeah.

They follow you on social media. 2023. They'll stay up to date on all that stuff. How else can we be of support to you?

That, just spread the message. You know, I know that there are components to this that people will find a bit controversial, and that is not my intention. My intention is that we just are having open conversations, that we can tone down the emotion and come together collectively. And that's, if we really want a healthy world, that's what it's gonna take. Mm-hmm.

Well, I wanna acknowledge you for diving in on this topic, because I don't think a lot of people are talking about protein and muscle like you are. They're not as passionate and as committed to this as you are, so I think it's really, powerful that you're helping your clients really think about longevity in a way so they stay healthy, you know, and stay healthy in a long life as well. And, and definitely having muscle, having strength is the key that we know of to making sure that if you fall, you can pick yourself back up, that if you get injured, you can recover faster. So you're not just living, extending life life and suffering, but you're thriving.

You have body armor. You have the capacity to live in extraordinary wellness. Yeah, it's the ultimate in strong medicine. I like that.

Yes, yes. Well, I'm really glad that you're doing this work, and I'm— and I acknowledge you for your mission and your service on this topic and everything you're doing with your clients. This is a question I ask everyone at the end called the 3 truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario, it's your last day on earth, but you have taken so much protein and you've built your muscles that you live as long as you want to live, right? And you're thriving, but for whatever reason, it's your last day on earth. Yeah. And you've created and accomplished everything, but you've got to take all of your work with you, so no one has access to this knowledge anymore. Your show, your books, all this stuff is gone for whatever reason, but you have 3 things you can leave behind, 3 lessons. Or 3 truths. What would you say are those for you?

Always stay committed to your cause. Okay. Always be committed to your cause. The second truth I would leave to my children— what would that be? And that would be that they are perfect just the way they are. And the third truth is know exactly what you stand for.

What do you stand for?

Excellence, integrity, commitment to a cause greater than myself.

Yeah, that's great. Um, final question for you: what's your definition of greatness?

My definition of greatness is to make an impact and make individuals' lives better. It's ultimately to be of service.

There you go, got around to that. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Yeah, of course.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media, and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I wanna remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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