The WEALTH Expert: How I Built An $80 MILLION Business In A Weekend | Noah Kagan

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I worked directly for Zuckerberg, invented like Facebook status. You know, the thing that now is Twitter and Facebook. That was something I came up with and it was probably one of the best experiences I've ever had in my life. I loved it. There's a lot I've learned from him. We put in a lot of in the book. But it's also a blessing that I got fired super early to realize okay, I'm not in control of my own destiny.

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Welcome back everyone at School of Greenness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring Noah Kagan. My man. Good to see you, brother.

Good to see you. Been a long time on the Internet.

Been a long time working together, friends together, traveling, probably a lot of different online marketing events together. And just we've been supporters of one another for almost 15 years.

It's been a long time.

Amazing. We were just talking about this how, you know, it's hard to sustain kind of like credibility, authority and financial success consistently online. We've seen a lot of people come and go who've been like big and.

Make a ton of money and then.

You don't hear about them for years or they have some scandal or they did some scam or something, or they didn't treat people well.

Yeah.

And you've been consistent with what you've been doing with Sumo.com and everything you've been up to. You've been building your YouTube channel, which has been blowing up for the last couple years. And now you've got this amazing book called Million Dollar Weekend, the surprisingly simple way to launch a seven figure business in 48 hours. And you talk about launching a $85 million business in a weekend. And I want to get to how people can launch an $85 million business in a weekend in a moment. But I'm curious first what you think are the biggest myths around money and abundance. From everything you learned working with at big companies and under big CEOs to then launching your own business. What are the biggest myths holding people back and blocking their abundance and wealth?

Being rich is great. Let's just start there. And people realizing that it's accessible. Like I grew up middle class. I don't know. How did you grow up?

Yeah, lower middle, lower middle.

And I believe when you get born in these kind of areas. We think we're stuck in these areas, and we think there's some guru or something that we don't have access to. And realizing that we can all get on that level is just a first shift that we can recognize. But, like, I can actually leave middle class if I want, and I can be rich and I can have whatever I want in life. So let's just start with that. With money, a money myth. I think a lot of people just think we're stuck in these phases. The other thing that has been fascinating is a money myth that I think people that want to get rich is that the best way to get rich is entrepreneurship. So the best way to get rich, like, if you actually want to make a lot of money, look at all the different ways. Okay, I can do stocks. Okay, I can get a day job. Great. I can maybe do real estate.

Okay.

But actually, probably the best thing is to start your own business. The upside of starting your own business is unlimited. And I think when more people realize that everyone should be an entrepreneur, whether you have a day job, whether you just want grocery money, or whether you want weekend money, being an entrepreneur just provides you one unlimited upset of money, but also just creative freedom that you are fully in control of. I think those are some of the things that it's been an interesting experience in starting my own businesses, working for Zuckerberg, running Appsua.com and now helping a lot of people with Million Dollar Weekend. Right.

The interesting thing is, you know, I love your newsletter. You've got a great newsletter.

Thank you.

I haven't subscribed. Make sure to check it out. But you talked about recently how you have become a real estate investor, but you've. But you've lost a bunch of money investing and owning real estate. And there's a lot of different people and talking about these different industries, how you can make a lot of money with stocks, how you can make a lot of money with real estate, how you can make a lot of money with launching a personal brand online or creating a YouTube channel or a podcast, or all these different things. Right. They talk about the strategies on making millions doing these things, but you've also done some of these things and lost money. Like you've invested in stocks, you've invested in real estate, and it's more time, more hassle, more stress sometimes. Right. And to counteract that, I think what is the 80% of businesses fail within the first five years. It's a lot of work being an entrepreneur. A lot of times people lose money on their business or launching something. It's usually not the first business that does really well. It takes a few tries sometimes. So what do you say to people that say, talk about those stats of like, well, I've heard about my friend who invested in building their business and they just, they lost everything. And now I have this fear around that. What do you say to people that see the challenges that business is, have also?

Yeah, well, I think that's a myth, that you need money to start a business. I started AppSumo with $48 in 48 hours, which is now doing about $80 million a year. And so there's a misconception that you need all this money to be able to actually create these things. And you could start any single business within a weekend, which everyone, you, me, everyone watching has 52 of them.

Yeah.

And you can do something in a weekend to actually see like, is this business going to work? And if it doesn't, great, I have another weekend where I can use the million dollar weekend process to create something else.

Yeah.

And what's interesting though is that most of the most successful people have the most failures. How many things have you started?

Yeah, think about it.

How many things you have had? The LinkedIn. Remember the LinkedIn course?

LinkedIn. LinkedIn, yeah, the LinkedIn webinars, marketing. Yeah, all that stuff. I had a sports networking site called sportsnetworker.com Sports Executive Association. Now all those things actually did okay, but none of them was like some big hit.

Exactly.

And I also didn't love doing them after a certain period of time. They were great for a season, but not for a lifetime.

Yeah.

And so I transitioned out of a lot of things that weren't like big things for a period of time or that weren't my, my vision or the thing I wanted to spend my time doing. So. But you learn a lot through those failures.

Exactly. You can learn by doing these businesses that don't work and you, you swing, you experiment and you're like, I want to try doing lawn care.

Right.

I want to try being a content creator. I want to try an E commerce business, I want to try a service business. I want to try creating software business, whatever it is. And they keep adding up and you keep swinging, you keep practicing. And that leads you to the school of greatness, to publishing in New York Times and seller. But that's all these little experience that you are in the arena doing this business, experimenting and then getting to that point where you're going to have success. Now, what's been the most shocking thing this is the most shocking, is that when people want businesses and everyone should be an entrepreneur, whether you want to make a million or whether you want to make grocery money, there's a lot of fear.

Yeah. Passive income on the side, weekend money, things like that. Yeah, yeah.

And even in the real estate. You're commenting on real estate. The best real estate business is not to own real estate. It's to be a property manager or a cleaner of real estate. My property manager makes more than I do.

And you own all these properties.

I don't. And they're not appreciating, like people always appreciate. They're not appreciating, they're not cash flowing. And then I get problems. Like, I had a leak yesterday. Last week, I had to do an hoa, had a new roof.

You got to spend an extra 10, 20 grand.

And guess who's actually making all the money? The property manager, the cleaner. And so there are the ways of being in starting your own business where you don't have to put up a lot of capital, take a lot of time, a lot of risk.

You don't have any risk.

Everyone should be an entrepreneur, which I do believe everyone should be. What's holding people back? There's so many YouTube videos, there's so many Udemy courses, there's so many books out there. So what is holding people back?

What are those key things holding people back from making more money?

As an entrepreneur, the biggest thing holding them back from making more money is making $1. So this has been the shocking thing, and the most surprising thing is I was putting together the book with Tal Raz. Most people just don't start. And so you started what? How many years ago did you start swinging?

2008.

Yeah. You're on a calendar I got.

In 2007, I started, like, researching and trying stuff online. But 2008 is when I made my first hundred dollars. And I remember being blown away when a guy wrote me a check for a hundred dollars. I was helping him kind of for an hour, redo his LinkedIn profile and kind of give him some tips as a friend. He was actually kind of a mentor of mine. Still is. His name's Frank Agan. And he afterwards, he just wrote me a check and said, this is yours. And I was like, you'll pay me for this. And he goes, you have no idea how many leads and customers I'll get from what you just taught me. And I go, really? It's like, wow. I had a big, odd moment. I was like, oh, maybe I'll like help other people with their LinkedIn profile. Exactly. Let me try to get more clients did that. Let me try to charge more. Let me try to make a book out of this. Let me try to make a course out of this and keep going down the path. And. And I learned through fail, success, all.

That stuff, I got fired very early, and it was such a blessing. Yeah, I lost a lot of money.

Tell me this. Now tell me this story, because you were one of the first, what, 20 employees at Facebook?

30 at Facebook.

Number 30 at Facebook, yeah. So how many employees they have now?

A hundred thousand.

A hundred thousand?

Something like that.

You were number 30?

Yeah.

How long did you work at Facebook.

For about nine months.

Nine months.

And I got fired. And the thing I was going to say about starting in other people is that that was a huge realization that, like, your job can be taken from you, and what do you do then? And that doesn't mean you have to have a big entrepreneurship business, but get started. So one day, if you want to do it, great. If not, at least you have that option. And so that's a whole story. Where I worked directly for Zuckerberg, invented Facebook status. The thing that now is Twitter and Facebook. That was something I came up with, and it was probably one of the best experiences I've ever had in my life. I loved it. There's a lot I've learned from him. We put a lot of it in the book. But it's also a blessing that I got fired super early to realize, okay, I'm not in control of my own destiny. So I probably need to figure out what is it I really want to do and how do I get to do it myself?

Yeah. You see a lot of companies right now laying off thousands of employees at a time. Right. Big companies that are, like, laying off people, and these employees could be doing great work, but they're just like, oh, we just need to cut down costs.

Yeah.

So you need to be thinking about that. You know, hopefully you're able to provide value to the company you're at, but also be thinking, you know, what are the skills that I could keep developing on the side as well.

Yeah. One of the big breakthroughs in getting started we talked about a myth, was that there's so many ordinary people getting rich. You know, we talked about the middle. The middle income. A lot of ordinary people get rich. You don't have. A lot of times, it's just showing up and just getting started. So one of the biggest takeaways a lot of people have had is like, how do I get going now? Just today, like, so you want to be a YouTuber, post a video. My first YouTube video, which is now at a million subs. It was me shirtless. I know, I'm sure you've watched a bunch of times, but it was, yeah, it was basically me home, just a phone. Like everyone has shirtless, just talking about business. I think a few hundred views. That was three years ago. And now we have like each video cost 20 to 30 thousand dollars to make. But that. The point is I got started.

Yes.

And so. And an ordinary person, or don't have ordinary, like extraordinary abilities, just get started and start. You know, each week you kind of commit to a little bit more, a little bit more. And then after 10 years, New York time, bestseller book, huge shows, things like that. But it's getting going and getting a dollar today. You can eventually get a larger business gross your money. Million dollar business and beyond.

Wow. I'm curious, you know, I've heard you tell the story about working at Facebook a lot. I'm just curious, what would be the three biggest lessons you learned from your time working there? From learning, growing, earning. Also like a lesson from getting fired. Lesson from just observing Zuckerberg. Like what would say your three overall lessons from your whole time there?

It's emotional. Cause I was like fired. It was so depressing. It was so sad, you know, and everyone, it's not unique. Everyone's going, you, everyone watching has their own moment to say what's their character? What's their hero's journey in their life. And it was hard. And I was 10 years of depressed, just being like frustrated that they, they removed me.

10 years depressed after.

Oh yeah, fired. Big time. It was so much like of my drive that finally, you know, it just took so long to go to therapy and life coaches.

It was a big part of your identity too.

Yeah, it was everything. It was like Facebook, then myself, then my girlfriend. Right. It was like in that order. But things that I was able to learn and I was very lucky, I feel very lucky that I could be a part of it. It's something special in our society. From how much this guy has done, I'd say probably top three things. Number one, he had a coach. And I just remember being shocked by that. And you know, we're, we're 24 year old arrogant kids, you know, from elite schools. Right. I went to Cal, but they went to like Harvard, MIT and Caltech. And I remember looking at Mark one day and he had this like old lady sitting with him. And I was like, who, who is that? Like, what are you doing, Mark? You're. You're super smart. You know, if, like, we listen to.

You, you're building this next, like, revolution.

Yeah. And he didn't talk about her much, but it was an interesting observation of success. So he had her around, he had Peter Thiel, the founder of PayPal, around. And so it was interesting that Mark, at a very early age was recognizing how do I get elite coaches? And this is something I've copied@appsumo.com, so how do I get them around me in different facets of where I'm weak?

And how old were you then?

24. 23.

He was 24 as well, roughly. Wow. So you're the same age. Yeah.

Wow. Okay. I think that that's a huge one.

Getting coaching ment leadership around you.

Mark was very focused. And let me give you a counterexample to Mark. I met someone recently and he's like, I'm starting a business. And I was like, and I've been helping with his business. He actually has five customers. And so I talked with him two days ago. I text him like, how's it going? He's like, great, I've got the customers, I'm doing this stuff, but I'm going to start an app. I was like, what do you mean you're starting an app? We just got this going. Let's go do this. And Mark on the other side of that, I remember going to him one day and I said, mark, I want to sell. We need to make money at Facebook. We can't be. We got to start making a lot of real money and let's start selling tickets on Facebook and events. And he brought me in the room and he said, he wrote one word, which is growth. And then under, he wrote a billion. And he's like, this is all I care about.

Wow.

And think about, this guy's 24, by the way. We're 24 year olds. And he's like, I want to get to a billion people and I don't do anything else besides that.

No way.

Yeah. And I remember at that time just being like, he is focused and he is very clear where he's going. And so for all of us out there, like, do you know where you're going? And so with appsumo.com, with my YouTube channel, with this book, it's like, do you have one clear goal with somewhat of a timeline like most people? Like, yeah, I wanna be healthy. How healthy? Buy one. And the More that you have clarity where you're gonna go. I'd say, lastly, what was really interesting, One of my new favorite phrases is like, put something on the calendar. Put something on the calendar. I love this phrase. And what it means is, do you have stuff you're looking forward to? Put it on the calendar. Do you not have something fun in your life? Put it on the calendar day. Go golfing, whatever it is, Rollerblade.

Plan that trip, whatever.

It could be small. Go get ice cream. And what I. What was fascinating about Mark was how big his vision was and how he had this belief in something exciting on the calendar. He's like, we are going to connect the entire world.

Wow.

And, you know, coming back to all our lives, it's like, what's your exciting future? What's on the calendar that you're like, I want to go and do that kind of thing. And I remember because he had Yahoo came and this is why my boss got fired the day I started.

You started? Your boss got fired?

I literally walked in and my boss walked out my first day on the job. And what was fascinating, though, was Mark was like, yeah, Yahoo just offered me a billion dollars. Imagine someone be like, yeah, I'm gonna offer you a billion. He's like, no, I don't want a billion. He's like, I believe so much in where we're going and connecting the entire Internet that I don't care about this money. Wow. And it was. It was really inspiring. I know with AppSumo.com now, it's like promoting SaaS tools for solopreneurs. I'm like, there's some stuff I just really am excited to do. And it's finally realizing, recognizing, oh, there's something great about having something in the calendar, having something you're excited for your future. So that. Yeah, I'd say those are some things.

Incredible, man.

Yeah.

We don't need to stay on Zuckerberg for that long. But I'm curious, you know, it's been, when did you get fired?

Then you started doing a while.

2009, 2010. When was it? No.

2005. 2005, 2006. So it's been 17 years.

17 years ago, yeah. Okay. I have no idea what your relationship. I don't know if you've spoken to him ever again since then or what, but you've probably observed him for the last 17 years. What would you say are the three biggest things you've learned from Mark Zuckerberg in the last 17 years since leaving Facebook? Just observing him.

You commented earlier, how we're still around, I'd say number one is that it's. It's easy to make one good decision. It's hard to make a good decision over many years. And I will say he's made. He's been able to stick around for now, 20 years almost.

He's made more good decisions than bad.

Yeah.

Over a long period of time.

Yeah. So I find that really fascinating. I'd say the negatives, I would actually say, are the other two, which is, I think, because there's a success bias, because he thinks he's successful. Everything he does is success. And so I think you kind of miss out on the actual customer. So in all business, you're really having a customer that you talk to, and you see if you can help them. That's it. I know there's more that people are trying to sell you, but really, that's it at the end of the day. And I think with Oculus and some of the things he's building, there's a disconnect from what the actual customer wants. Like, I've used Oculus. It's fine. I used it for a few days, and then I got rid of it.

That's more trying to force something that people don't want.

Yes. So I think there's that. That I would say I've observed in him. And I'd say the third thing that's kind of interesting is his best successes have been what other people have created.

Instagram.

Instagram and WhatsApp, even Oculus. I was Palmer lucky. So one of the things in business which is really fascinating is you only need one hit to succeed.

Wow.

You only need one hit, dude. Which is crazy. I mean, like, I tried. I think it was, like, 20 to 25 businesses until appsumo.com.

Wow.

And that was a hit. And it worked right away. And there's things that you can do to increase those chances, but for him, he literally had one hit. It worked.

It was a big hit, though.

And it was a big hit.

It was a massive hit.

Yeah, it's a massive hit.

But I think then you have the attention, the leverage, the relationships where you can acquire or bring other people under your umbrella.

Yeah. And so I think the thing is, for anyone, like, get going, keep swinging, keep experimenting, get going now. Just one hit, and you could have either the business or the relationship or whatever you want in life, but you kind of have to be playing the game, and you have to be in it.

Who's the most inspiring entrepreneur today in your mind? That Inspires you.

I would say Bezos, to me, is like the epitome of just, like, entrepreneurship. And also, it might sound strange. I also really admire that he gave it up a little bit, that he stopped. Well, he's. There's this kind of drive in society, and I've interviewed a lot of billionaires on my channel, and a lot of them seem unhappy. They seem unhappy. Like, I try to get all this money and I sacrificed my family. We asked one of the questions, like, was it worth it? Do you regret it? And almost. I can read between the lines, and there's only a few. John Paul Dejoy from Patron was the one. I was like, okay, this guy's. He's. He's. He's content. He's. He seems to be a kind person and not to knock any of the other people.

Yeah.

And maybe they have their own definition, just my own observation of it. And I think with the fact that he was so unique in how he approached business in a lot of different ways, like the customer first mentality that he had versus founder first, which is what Zuckerberg's doing. He was customer first. How he thought about the business models, where he had one business model, which is E commerce. But he's like, maybe I can take that with things we're creating internally, like aws, create another product, create Kindle. He was willing to fail. So many of us are afraid of failure. That's why in the book, the whole first section is, how do we more comfortable failing and making it fun? And then as well, I respect. I mean, with him and his wife. Don't know about that. That's private stuff. But I do respect. It does seem like. You look at him now, he's like, yeah, I've worked really hard. I want to go to space and I want to relax and enjoy life with my new partner. And I think there's just something admirable where I think most people are like, well, I got to keep making more, because that's the expectation of me.

Even though he's one of the richest people in the world, he doesn't need to make more.

And I think it's admirable that he's like, I'm going to pass this on because this is where I'm done at this point, and maybe I'll come back or not. So I think people like him. There's a guy I interviewed recently, Larry Janeski. I just like these people that they work on something for a very long period of time and they seem content and they're like, I like what I'm doing. I'm doing it for a long period of time. And I get a balance making money because I think there's this idea you have to only make money and not live. And that's why I left Silicon Valley, because I was like, I don't want to care about how many employees or how much funding or how big a business is. I want to be able to live life right. Studying Larry Janesky. He has a $600 million basement business out on the East Coast. Wow. And so he's like, he, I text him a few weeks ago, he's like, did the Baja 1000. And then when I interviewed him for the show, he's not on his phone the whole time. He's hanging out, running like a nine figure company.

Wow.

So those are kind of people. I think it's longevity, I think it's balance of life. I think it's they're approaching things and not and they're okay failing in these things.

Yeah. That's fascinating. I love the content when you put it out because it's always like you want a private jet of some stranger that you like, ask, can I come in your jet and interview you? Or you know, you on the street fighting billionaires and billionaires. I'm curious, what is the difference between millionaires and billionaires and everyone else?

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Different things, but I'd say the two most common things between a a millionaire to billionaire. Most billionaires picked one thing. Just one thing. Let's just go. I mean Bob Metcalfe Ethernet created the Ethernet. Pretty big deal. John Paul Dejorie he created $2 billion companies haircare and patron Tequila. Michael Hudner did ships and all of them just have one thing that they focused on and most of us are like, well, I'm gonna do real estate and then I'm gonna do a little content and then I'm gonna try an e commerce business.

I'm gonna have seven passive income streams. Yeah.

I don't know. And so for me, as I've gotten older, I'm only doing appsumo. It's like I have a book. Well, my girlfriend and our baby. That's number one. And then it's like app Sumo number two, my business. And then I. Yes. I get to do YouTube, which I love making content similar to you. I have a book where I'm teaching other people how I did what I did.

Yeah.

And I love that they did one thing. I think the second thing that's probably not recognized is they're in billion dollar markets, they're in billion dollar opportunities. So what's a billion dollar opportunity? Honestly, this is going to sound silly, but like lawn care. How many lawns are out there? You have a lawn.

I have like a fake yard. Yeah. It's a lot of water in California, so. Yeah, true.

Do you have a pool?

I do, yeah.

And then you have pool care. And how much do you pay your pool care person?

100 bucks.

So it's a weekly?

Yeah. Yeah.

So 400 bucks a month.

Yeah.

So that's $5,000 a year.

You get 50 pools.

It's like, hey, that's a million dollar opportunity. And then so you realize like pools and certain things, like, can be billion dollar markets. And most people. And this is something I had to.

Recognize through boring businesses.

Boring businesses is not. And it's not just boring. It's just billion dollar opportunities. Like, And John Paul DeGioia was a great one that I. I sound fascinating. Cause he's like, find something that's in the reorder business too. So not just a billion dollar market, like shampoo billion dollar market, but people need to buy your product over and over and over again. And so I think there's something fascinating is that a billion dollar market is a product that people need. Like pool care. Doesn't have to just be tech. I come from tech world, but there's a lot of different businesses out there to be creating. Like you can make money in a lot of different ways. And that's been also fascinating with talking to all these people from ships to basements. There's just so many different ways.

Right. A lot of ways. I'm curious. I think it was one of the interviews I saw from you where you're interviewing some guy. Maybe you'll remember who this is. And you ask him, like, what's your definition of success? And he said something like, as an adult, my adult kids still want to hang out with me on their own, not because I have money, but because they just like me. And I was like, man, that really hit me. And I don't know, was that from your. One of your.

The founder of FedEx? The founder of Kinko's. Kinko.

Kinkos.

Yeah.

So do you remember what that. What that was or what that question was? I don't know if that was the exact question or what he said, but do you remember that?

Yeah, I remember him. The other person I think of when I think of success, I asked the founder of Strava. You know Strava? It's a cycling tracking app. It's like social network cyclist.

Yeah.

And this is the most unique one. I don't know. I don't think he's a billionaire, which is totally great. Right. Still doing really well. It's an amazing Apple, big business. And I asked him, I was like, what's success? He's like, not waking up to an alarm. That one's I never forgot because it's such a. It means you have freedom of your time. You're a time millionaire. And the fact that you're like, I can wake up whenever I want and do the things I really want in my day, that is, to me, like, okay. I like that level of success.

Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. And the other guy was the.

The founder of Kinko's or his founder of Kinko's. And, yeah. I mean, what was shocking about his story? He sold his company 2.4 billion, became a billionaire. And the disappointing part, he was awesome. I really admire him, Mr. Ophelia, but he said he was stressed for 34 years. He's like, every day I'm stressed building that business.

Yeah.

He's like, is it going to work? Am I have a payroll? Do I have to do this thing? I have to fly that stuff. And I remember just being like, I don't want that. And that's the coolest part about life. I can look at Lewis, I can look at Noah. I can check him out. I can be like, whose haircut do I want to try? And guess what? You create your own. You take all these different ones and you get a piece together. The haircut you want to actually wear.

Yeah.

So I like seeing that. I was like, I don't want to live that life. I'm happy making less money, but doing it the way I want.

Yeah. But for 20 years, you lived a certain level of life, building your business, making money, and there was anxiety and stress around that for a long time.

Right.

When did you realize, like, okay, this level of stress and, you know, emotional overwhelm and just like always needing to get bigger and bigger and bigger. When did you realize that no longer works for you and that you wanted to shift it?

Yeah.

Maybe you knew from the beginning it doesn't work, but you were still doing it. But when did you realize, okay, this is not how I want to live the rest of my life?

Yeah. What I. For me, I'm 41, and I think you have to be stressed in your 20s. If you. There. There's a part of stress that's good. It's not always a bad thing. I think you have the book out there, Upset of stress. So in 20s, you're figuring out your life and you're just working your stuff. You don't know really what's happening. And then your 30s, you're kind of more clear. Like, okay, I like maybe YouTube. I like promoting products. And then your 40s, you're. For me, I find it calm. And that just takes time to find out who we really are and be patient with some process that eventually we will figure it out. And for me, Covid, I would say, is when I finally found more peace.

Really?

Yeah.

When most people found more stress. You found peace? Why did it. Why did Covid bring you peace?

Because I recognized that how I was approaching business. I had a plan. I was like, here's what we're going to be doing. Here's our budget, here's our business, and I have a plan that I can follow. So that was part one and part two is I didn't really like how I was living. I was engaged, and it didn't work out.

Really?

Yeah. You know, I had. My business partner had a line he was recommending. He said to me, he's like, are you getting what you're getting or you're.

Getting what you want from the relationship?

Yeah. Not. Not from him as a business partner. Great shout out, Chad. He's amazing.

So you're engaged. Maybe there were some ups and downs and you weren't like, fully clear.

Yeah.

Yeah. And he asked you that question.

Yeah.

Are you getting what you're giving?

Are you getting what you want?

What was the answer?

I'm not getting what I want. And that's hard. Right. I think most of us. This is the thing I've noticed about advice, especially watching interviews and interviewing people. Most of us know the truth they know we know our truth. It's just hard, and we don't want to accept it.

Yeah.

And everyone has courage. Like, I did this ayahuasca thing, which I know is more common now, but I did it years ago, and courage to me was. I was afraid of it, but I did it anyways. And then I was still scared. And there's a whole crazy story about this, but coming out of it, I was like, oh, I realize I can do hard things and all of us can do hard things, but we have to face the hard thing.

Yes.

And we all have it in us. And so for me, with breaking up with the fiance, which was tough, and I knew what was that like, that was probably one of the more bigger regrets in my life that I didn't do it sooner because I wasted her time. Wasted my time.

Yeah. That's tricky.

It was two years of just, like, back, and everyone's gone through this. It's not unique for me, but it was two years of, okay, let's try to make it work, but I know I'm not really good for you, and I don't feel good about myself. And so it was like, eventually, when. When Covet happened, that was. That was kind of our. We had some. Some issues that went down, and I was just like, I can't do this. Like, I can't spend. It was the specific thing I thought was like, do I want 40 more years of this? Oh, man.

Yeah, that's.

That was. It was tough. And I.

It's interesting, I asked myself a question in the. In. In a previous relationship before, I think Esther Perel said something like, can you see yourself having 10,000 meals with this person? Like, if you're going to have 10,000 meals with a person, do you see yourself enjoying those meals, having fun, or is it more stressful?

Yeah. And I mean, all that added up. I mean, even doing, like, this book, Million doll weekend, or YouTube and stuff, that nothing was wrong. But she is not with our relationship. She did not get excited. Like, I want to go to YouTube. I like attention. And my partner now with Mafa, she's like, go on YouTube. Have fun with Lewis. And for me, that worked. My ex will find a partner that's better. And so with COVID it was like having a plan in business, breaking up with the fiance. And then I think the other part that was kind of interesting is experimenting with life. This is the same with business. It's an experiment. It's all an experiment. It's a game.

Yeah.

And I experimented just different Ways of living. I experimented finally living kind of rich. Like I had money, but I never enjoyed it.

Really?

Yeah. I think we're all taught that money can't buy happiness and that you're like, if you know, you shouldn't be buying these things and don't live this way. And most of the ones who are showing that stuff are actually probably not that don't have the money for them poor, but like, they probably don't have the money.

Right.

Most people don't. Most rich people don't even be posting about it. Right. And so I started. I rented a Malibu beach house. I rented a lake house in Austin. I started doing these things. I got like an RV for a month and I just kind of like drove around and like hung out the rv and I was like, wow. Having some a nicer space to live makes me feel a lot better. And so those kind of things led me in a direction where single for a while, started doing dating coaches, had a business plan that was executing for Appsumo. So I felt in control of the business. And then I felt like I'm actually going to start taking care of myself. And then I also felt like I could take care of others then too, as I was feeling better about myself and that I think the past three years I've felt much better, just been much calmer.

What, what is money and relationships taught you about when you've been in a relationship that you weren't fully sure of was going to work out? What was your views around money during that time? Were you more anxious and stressed? Were you more abundant thinking? Like, where were you at with money?

It's easy to be abundant when you have money. I'll tell you that. It's hard when you. And that's what most people, they're struggling with money. That's why I'm like, let's talk about entrepreneurship, because that's a way of you can changing your situation, which everyone can do. And I had a friend who said, no, you're here and you're here where you want to be, and it's actually closer than you think. I was like, really? Like, yeah, it's much closer than you think.

And you thought it was a bigger gap?

I thought it's a gap. I thought there's something, I don't know, I thought there's something outside. And this one, I think we're both, as we've gotten older, it's all inside.

Yeah.

Just being kind of like, hey, it's okay.

Yeah, of course.

Okay. Now with my ex, it was not that there was a good or bad thing about money. It was just how we treated each other with it. Like, I didn't really spend a lot of money on myself.

What did you do with your money? Because you were making money every year. Was it just compounding in a bank account? Was it in stocks? What were you doing?

Yeah, my father built his own business and then lost it to drugs and alcohol. And it was. It was a sad. Like, that's definitely. For me, I think a lot of. A lot of men, we want our fathers to recognize us. And I was fortunate. I have a great mom and a great stepfather. But for me, that. That father attachment. And I think with growing up with Jewish parents, candidly, like, we're taught to be very frugal or taught to be very practical, and it's just like, go make money. And that. That's a thing versus, like, all right, how do you enjoy life? And I think with my ex, it wasn't. She kind of made me feel bad about it. Like, why don't you spend money? Or we go to the airport. It's like $5 for a bottle of water. I'm like, I'm going to go to the bathroom and drink from the faucet. Like. Or, like, I'm just like, five bucks. It's fine. I don't care. And there's still times, but over time, you start spending in different things. Like, I bought a fancy Jaguar. I had so much regret on it.

Yes, you did.

Oh, yeah. I hated it. I hated it. I. Dude, I. Oh, man. It was the worst. Because I don't care about nice cars. I have a 2004 Miata. I just got a new Vespa.

There you go.

That's a second. I do. I do have a. I have a model Y, but it was not important to me. And I think that was interesting where she wasn't. And for both of us, she wasn't like, hey, she was like, you're being cheap. I like, okay. You know, it kind of, like, felt deflated versus. And I was like, hey, why don't we. Do you want to try spending these things? Can we rent it for a day?

Right, right, right.

So I think there's ways of actually being more positive to each other with money.

Right. Wow. Do you believe in practicing gratitude and manifesting and the law of attraction? And if so, has that helped you attract more of the life you want?

I'll tell you the part that's counterintuitive for me. So every day I write down something I'm Grateful. And almost everything I'm grateful for is silly. Like, to me, it's like I'm grateful for electricity. I'm grateful for water, hot water. Just.

I don't think that's silly, man.

Yeah, those are the ones. Those are the ones I really love because it's. It's available and it's not realizing how great life really is for all of us. I mean, if you're able to watch this, life's probably pretty good.

Yes.

Doesn't maybe feel good in this moment, or maybe you don't have the money, but that's also something you could change in terms of having. Candidly, I don't think I always felt worthy.

Of what?

Of, like having certain things, like having a wife or having a partner or having a kid. And even with Facebook and stuff like that, I felt like, well, Zuck fired me. I'm not worthy of having a business.

Really?

Yeah. I felt like, oh, this guy knows something better than I don't. And I think a lot of us feel that way, like, oh, these other people have these things. Am I actually worthy of this stuff? And how do we, you know, you talk about gratitude and vision, I think everyone can spend more time just being grateful for themselves. And how do we just actually give more kindness to ourselves? So one thing that I work on, anytime I'm kind of criticizing myself, it's like, all right, let's say one nice thing. And it kind of. What's crazy is you do that enough times, like criticize, nice thing, criticize. And we are literally the meanest people in the world to ourselves. Like, you know, your worst friend is yourself. And so how do you change that relationship over time? And now it's just kind of like throughout my day, I'm like, dude, good job. Like, hey, you, you hung out with Lewis, Great job. And the more that we start doing those things, I think that's a way that, yes, you can manifest other things, but it's just really, how do we work on being nice to ourselves? And that that's really helped over time.

So it sounds like you were pretty self critical and you didn't feel like you had self worth or feel like you were worthy for a long time building appsumo. Yeah. But you still built an $85 million business feeling unworthy, feeling under qualified, and not fully loving and accepting yourself. Is that right? Yeah. On a scale of 1 to 10 of self worth, where would you say you were for most of those years? The first 10 years of building AppSumo?

Yeah.

One being you have Very little self worth and don't believe you're deserving of any of it. The money, the success, the love, and 10 being you're deserving of all that. Where were you for most of those years?

Literally until probably the past year is just very low. Like, it's still. Let's talk about the book. No, no, no, this is good, man. Probably until literally like two years ago, maybe fours. Threes. Fours.

Threes and fours.

Yeah. Like, I was getting partners that would that liked me just because that's what I got. And then with AppSumo, I think I had this fear I'm going to ruin this business. So I try to pass it off and not do it. And even with this book, I had to go through my own journey of, okay, I'm going to hire Tal Raw, one of the best business writers in the world, and I don't have to face myself. And when all of us face these hard things in life, whether it's writing a book, whether it's relationship, whether it's starting putting yourself out there a little bit and you face some of the fears and you start just even small, the smallest thing, and you're like, maybe I am worthy. Maybe I can do these things. And with AppSumo, when the previous CEO quit and I came back to work, I definitely was like, I'm ruining this business. I'm messing. And I did make a lot of mistakes, but I just stayed with it and I had great people around me. And so over time, now I'm like. And I get feedback. One of the easiest things anyone can do to improve right now, really, literally right now, is text someone how to kind of get better, whether it's in your relationship as an astro partner, whether it's at work as an employee or as a founder. And so it's just through working with people, getting feedback over time now I'm like, pretty good at this. I used to always. This is. I haven't really talked to this. It sounds small. I used to always call myself Chief Sumo because I never wanted to be a CEO. I never thought I was the right leader. And in the past 18 months, two years now, I'm the CEO. And so maybe for others out there, how are we labeling ourselves?

Yes.

And what are maybe small steps? Nothing big. Like I have to go some dramatic thing that I can just do that makes me feel good about myself, that moves me in that direction. Same with the relationship where I didn't. I went, I worked with Stephanie Rigg. She's a woman out of Australia. Great on Instagram, really great content. And a lot of what we talked about was like, what are you doing that makes you feel good about yourself? Like, you drank last night. How did that make you feel? Like you're doing this type of activity, like you're going on this date with a girl you don't want. How'd that make you feel? Like you're showing now with. With my partner, Mafe, it's like, how am I showing up for her? Am I actually aligning my priority to my behavior? And every time I do that, I'm like. Like, I cooked her some food two weeks ago. I was like, I'm proud of myself. I'm glad I could take care of you. Yeah, I'm really proud of myself. And all of us feel these different ways. It's not like some exclusive club where everyone's always feeling happy. Yeah, Right. But it's doing things that make us feel good about ourselves, that frankly, it's all within our control. I think over years, you realize it's not external validation. It's like, how do we get more of the internal validation, that internal person that's like, hey, I'm doing pretty damn good myself, and that's okay.

Man, this is beautiful. I'm so glad you're talking about this. Have you seen the movie Creed 3?

I think I've seen one or two. I don't know if I've seen three.

Creed 3 was the most recent one. Anyway, long story short about it, the Adonis Creed, he's now world champion and all these things, has all the money. He's in the Hollywood Hills, like, living the dream, you know, most famous guy in sports or whatever it is, and he's kind of depressed. He's, like, not boxing anymore. He's not like, just kind of sitting around depressed.

And.

Someone from his past comes into his life out of prison, right? Someone from his past comes, and there was some darkness that they both went through, which caused this person to go to prison. That Adonis, the main character, never faced, and he was kind of always running from his pain, his past. He talked about facing yourself. I'm curious, what was the thing that you had to face that was the hardest thing in the last couple years that allowed you to have more peace and more freedom in yourself and around money, love, and relationships.

Different things, man. It doesn't happen all at once. Like, even taking Million Dollar Weekend as an example. You know, I've worked for Zuckerberg. I helped start Mint.com. like, I've started so many different businesses that have Made millions of dollars, and I still felt afraid, like, can I put a book out there that people actually want and can I actually even help them? And so I thought by hiring someone who's like, the best around the world, I cold emailed him, like, can you work on me with this book? He's like, sure. And so paid him money. And I was like, okay, good. At least I don't have to do it. I don't have to face myself to see if I can actually write a book. And then as the book got closer to having to submit the manuscript, as you know, it goes, I was like, this is not. I have to face myself with this book. I have to see if I can really do it.

What did you not face actually writing a lot?

We wrote the book together, but it was like, is this the book that I want to put my name on? Is this a book that I can say, hey, if you're trying to start a business, there's some things about starting, building and growing that I can help you with. And so I had to face the book. I had to face myself in actually writing the book. And yes, I worked on it lightly but at a distance. And I think a lot of us do that. It's like, okay, well, let me avoid that thing. Let me avoid the relationship. Let me maybe avoid the work. And so then I basically, like. I don't know if I'd call it hermit mode, but basically sat in my room and more or less for about a month, just like, heads down, worked with beta readers. And then I was, like, working on the scripts and all these things, and I was like, slowly. And then I was going with people. So every weekend we have five people going through the book at a guy living at my house.

Wow.

About a month ago. And through doing it, I was like, oh, I can do this, I can do this. This works. And that's. We all feel that. We all feel that in a lot of different ways. Maybe in a relationship, maybe it's with work, maybe it's with ourselves. And so kind of this. This concept lately I've been really, really embracing is like, what's the hard thing I'm avoiding and how do I go into that? So I voted the book for a while of it, and then I was like, no, I'm gonna go full in. Same with AppSumo CEO. I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to do it. I wanted someone else to do it. And same thing when he quit. When I was on a bike ride, I was biking across America. And he quit and I didn't want to come back. And he, one of my best friends was like, well, who's paying for the bike trip? I was like, appsumo. He's like, well, you should probably. And the guy who's running it doesn't want to be there. So I came back and had to face that. And, you know, the same experience. Like, it's surprising how much we're afraid of things. And when you finally do it, you're like, that wasn't as hard as I thought. Right. And I'm much more capable than I realized. And that's true for everyone.

Right.

And it's just thinking about what these things are.

Wow. What's. What's been scarier? Recommitting to owning your CEO role in a business that you helped build, coming back to that and taking ownership or getting out of a relationship that wasn't working. To enter a new relationship and now have a baby on the way.

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Both insanely hard.

Yeah.

AppSumo is definitely some of the hardest work I've ever done. And I'd say by being an entrepreneur though, I feel lucky. I feel like it's the hardest thing, but this is the part that I think I'm assuming you can resonate with. The things that are the hardest for us are also on the other side of that. The things we're most proud of. We're never not proud of ourselves when we do something hard for ourself. And I'm really proud of my work at AppSumo where I'm like, damn, I'm showing up. And so for everyone out there, Whether you're doing YouTube, whether you're it's religion, whether it's sports, whether it's a business, like how are you showing up or in your partner. And the same thing with my partner where it's been a challenge. You know, I'm flying to Spain. I'm staying up till 10.11pm to work Spain hours so that I can be with her. And now that she's pregnant, it's like, okay, am I really showing up in the relationship for what she needs? And that's lately it's been awesome. It's been, I'm happy to show up for those things, but it's been, it's been a journey to get to that point.

What's the biggest thing that's shifted inside of you since knowing you have a kid on the way around your habits, around your business, around time allocation, around everything.

Okay, this is, this is the one that's going to be the. It's not what you're expecting, it's how much respect I have for moms.

Uh huh.

Shout out to all the Moms, dude. The mom's like, wow, dude, it is tough. It is tough. That's been one of the biggest Holy. Because we have, you know, we have four or five moms at AppSumo that are moms already, and they're pregnant moms.

I know.

And what they go through that's been.

I have a.

You know, I think in life you have to understand or go through things to have more empathy for that.

Yes.

And so I have. So, you know, it's been so hard on Mafe, and I admire how strong she is. I don't think I can handle what you're going through. So I definitely have a lot more admiration for working moms or even stay at home moms. Like, staying at home mom is probably one of the most underappreciated jobs in the world. And that's been probably one of the bigger shifts. I think a lot of the things. I mean, probably the other side of that maybe from a professional side, is also like, okay, what's really my priority?

Right.

What's really my priority? Am I saying is AppSumo? My priority is my book. My priority is YouTube. And it's like, no, my family and that. Honestly, I didn't know I was allowed to have a family.

Wow. What do you mean you weren't allowed to have a family?

I don't know. Dude. Did you just think you're supposed to have kids? I just thought, like, you know, kind of even business, like, am I allowed to be rich? Am I allowed to have a great family? And you talk about manifesting, envisioning. I just didn't know that I was allowed to have these things.

Did you not have a good family growing up?

Pretty good, yeah.

But you didn't think you could create a family?

Yeah, I thought I was supposed to have it by 30. And when it didn't happen at 30, I was like, I guess it's not supposed to happen. And that was tough. And it comes back to feeling worthy of ourselves. And so I worked with Stephanie Rigg. I go to therapy, and over time, I'm like, oh, maybe I can actually be with a great partner.

Wow.

And I would say, you know, professionally now, it's just, how do I really prioritize? Because. Because I've started a business. I have the opportunity now to say I can control my schedule, to really be there for my family.

Wow.

And that's. That's different. It's like, okay, I need to finish work at 6, and I need to. If she needs me to call or whatever, she needs to Take care of. Like I need to be prioritized to be available for that.

I mean, I'm assuming you are very similar to me that we were. There was no off switch when running our businesses for a long time. It was all day, all night, all nighter. Sometimes it was, you know, you're at dinner but you're checking your email. Sometimes it's, you know, your business is life. You know, it's like I'm assuming that was it for many years.

Yeah.

Until I started to create more healthy boundaries in the last few years. And really like okay, I'm still working at night sometimes and checking but it's not this obsession. I'm having more boundaries. Where do you see yourself now with a child on the way allocating time and energy if you have an 80 plus million dollar business that you're the CEO of, that you've got 70 something employees or more that you wanted to keep being at the same level, if not grow year over year after year. Yeah. How do you see yourself creating a healthy lifestyle, being a great partner, being a great father, being a great CEO and in 20, 30, 40 years saying the same response of, you know, I hope my kids respect and love me when they're adults and want to spend time with me. What's your views on how you're going to map that out?

I don't know how it's going to play out. I think all I can do is show up. Yeah, right. All I can do is show up and right now my priority is Mafe and the baby and so just showing up for her and whatever she needs. The other part of that is if that's my priority then you have to deprioritize other things.

Interesting.

And so how am I deprioritizing the book and YouTube and not say I want to give it up? Because I think one of the comments I say is I get, I love my work.

Yes, I love it.

I like I'm up late because I get to and not have to and I think that's available for everyone. And right now though it's do I have the right team in place? Do we have the right budgets kind of boundaries in place? Do they have the right scorecards? Each person has a scorecard of three things so they know what they need to be doing.

Yes.

And then I can back off. Right. Like you know my YouTube channel, fly to Monaco or we fly to Switzerland or go in the streets of New York, we go to houses in California and knock on doors. I don't want to do that because I want to be there for my family. Okay. Doesn't mean I have to give up YouTube. Just means I have to change the kind of videos I do.

Yes.

So it's also just adjusting that I'm available to prioritize what's my priority. The thing that, a simple thing that mafe is like, we're going to bed at 9pm you need to always be there. And I want to have dinner, I want to hang out with you before that. And so now it's basically six o', clock, it's done and been in bed by 9pm and that's been.

How's that? Like.

You know, she, she says sometimes on American time, I'm like 15 minutes, I'm just finishing up. 15 minutes, you know, two hours. Yeah. You know when people are like, I.

Wake up and I do all these.

Morning routines, like I've had, I've been as just successful with, with those morning routines as non. As, as successful without them. Right. I think sometimes there's an over optimization of how we're living. It's figuring out what works for you. And I will say though, it's made me like take more time, more intentionality about how I'm actually spending my day. Like, do I really want to spend. Like if I can only do so many things today, like what is the real few things that matter and being okay. That like I have a painting I haven't put up, there's scratches all over the house, pool stuff is broken and it's like, well, I have to get my work done and I want to spend time with my family and being okay. That there's other things that are going to go by the wayside for the time being.

Yeah. Wow. Someone on your team is here, your videographer and he was saying that one of the questions he would really like to ask is he's seen you mature emotionally over the last couple years in a big way and he was curious about, you know, how you've emotionally matured around money and how therapy has supported you in this growth. Yeah. Curious what your thoughts are on that. Biggest lessons you've learned that made you more emotionally mature. I feel like both of us have had emotional.

Yeah.

The last few years.

I still remember our times in New York that were, you know, 20 year old times and now we're 40 year old times and it's adjusted.

Yeah.

I, you know, I go to therapy every month, Dr. Resnick, and I think one of the, I would say the biggest change for me is stop chasing externally and stop looking externally, when all the things are internal, that's the only real difference where I have enough. You know, I was talking to an entrepreneur. Oh, Ali. And he said someone gave him advice. Oh, you need to get to $10 million in sales. You need to get to a million subs. You need to get. You need to be doing these things in life. It's like, no, I don't. I don't need more money. I don't need more subs. I. I actually, one of my counterintuitive things, I want less ambitious goals. I'm not trying to race. I used to try to race. Right. And when you race, guess what happens? You get tired and you burn out.

Wow.

So create less ambitious goals, but stick with them longer. And so I think that's just created a lot more peace in my life because I'm not rushing to compete with other people. I'm just competing with myself. And I can be proud of what I actually get to do.

Yes.

So that's made me more calm overall and just like, you know, kind of what you said, taking a step back, zooming out. But like, if you look at most of our lives, like, it's pretty freaking awesome.

Yeah.

And just actually being. Acknowledging that. And I think so many times we're looking at and we're like, oh, I don't have this. It's like, well, what do you have? And it's like, so many of these other things, it's awesome.

Not comparing to other people.

It's hard not to compare. I think jealousy is great. I think. I know, but I think jealousy, envy is great, at least from a directional standpoint. Because you're like, do I really want this? I haven't shared this. I used to be jealous of Ramit, one of our good friends. Oh, man. He's like, doing that. And then jealousy is a great mirror for yourself to then recognize, like, okay, what is it about that that maybe I want or don't want? And then just get to that conclusion for yourself and make the decision for what you want. Actually, do you want that life or not? And that's okay. Joe, you know, Joe Hudson sounds familiar. Oh, Joe Hudson's fire. He's fire. He has a thing called connection. Course highly recommend. I've done it with my brother to connect better. I've done it with Mafe to connect better. And one of the things he says about life and something that, as you're talking with other people, just say, and that's okay. And I love it. And that, hey, you want to be more famous, fine. Is that what you really want? And that's okay? You're okay where you're at? Great. And that's okay?

Yes.

And it just kind of is like almost relieving. Just relieving. And that's okay. We're not trying so hard for other people. We're just trying hard for ourselves.

Yeah. I love that, man. What is therapy taught you about money, bro?

How much time, how long is the episode? I mean, I literally went to therapy for two years to buy my house.

To buy your house? Why?

I didn't feel worthy of having a nice house.

Really?

Yeah. So how much money did you have? How much net worth did you have?

Yeah.

And you still didn't feel worthy with that much money?

Probably liquid 10 mil. And then AppSumo is worth nine or nine figures, like 100, 200 million.

So you had 10 million liquid, you had a $100 million. You know, in terms of equity in a business. Yeah. You didn't feel a few hundred million and you didn't feel worthy of owning a home. I'm trying to buy nice things.

Yeah. I mean, but. And I'm trying to relate to the audience because I don't want them. Oh, boo hoo, you poor rich. You know, that's not. But we all feel, you know, insecure in different ways.

And if you don't fix the insecurity when you don't have money, having the money is not going to fix.

You are.

It might have some added benefits. You can pay more bills, you can take care of health challenges easier, you can speed up conveniences, things like that. But it's not going to make you worthy. I tell you, fix the worthiness, insecurity inside of us.

And so therapy is like, I remember with Facebook, I got fired and then I went to a therapist and I was like, I'm so sad. I'm not going to get rich. And it's also kind of a, kind of crazy concept because it's like you can get rich in other ways. Like, this is not the only way. And, well, she said, okay, let's do an experiment. So let's write down all the things you really want if you got rich. I was like, okay, I want an M3. This is like years ago when M3s are cool, right? I was like, I want an M3. Okay, write it down. How much is M3? 50k. Okay. I love a house. This is in California. And houses were like a million. Okay, a million. Okay. What else?

First class.

Yeah, first class. School. Okay. Okay, let's put that down. All right, so how much is that? One and a half million. Do you think you're. You're gonna be able to make that kind of money in next few years? Yeah, ten years. Next year? A few years, yeah. Maybe. You're doing okay. Right. And so it's just kind of actually having that list of things we actually want in life. Like, one of the things that was important for me was my freedom number.

What's your freedom number?

My freedom number, and everyone has one, is what's the number you need to actually live the life you want? And it's always less than people think. And so after that experience, I realized I just want to get to 3,000 bucks a month. If I can actually get 3,000 bucks a month, I don't need these house. I need an M3. But I don't have to work for anyone ever again. I never have to have a boss, which I don't want to be anyone's boss, and I never want anyone to be my Boss. It was 3,000 bucks. So it's like I'm just going to keep swinging. I'm going to keep experimenting year after year after year until finally 2010. I mean, six years after leaving college that I was finally able to get a business. I was like, oh, I can. I can do this. It finally can work.

But then you were a boss.

I was. I wouldn't say I'm anyone's boss.

Most of you were an employer.

I'm an employer at a. At a company. But most of the people don't listen to me. The best people at most of the people at Appsumo and even at Facebook, I would say the best teammates and people at Facebook and at Appsumo, the best people are the ones that don't listen. I know that's kind of.

If they don't listen and they're getting results and I'll be like, great. You know, it's awesome. Yeah. If you're not listening and then you're screwing everything up. But we're like, okay, you know, no.

And when I say not listening, what I mean by that is like with YouTube, with Jeremy, or with Appsumo, we have, you know, Sean Alona and other people as well as with Tall Ras, the best ideas are forged. And so Tall Roz fought me on everything in this book. I mean, we fought for the best.

That's great.

To finally. And then we had.

That's great. Yeah.

And that's what I'm encouraging people where it was like, these people just don't listen.

In a good Way it shouldn't be about your idea. Should be the best idea. Winning.

But we all think we're, we all think we're smart, right? We all do. Of course. Everyone thinks we're smart. And then it's nice to be around people that are challenging your ideas.

Yeah. Challenge it. Then show me, you know, a game plan and take action and get results.

Yeah.

Or it fails and you try something.

Else and so come back. In therapy I still go, you know, should everyone go to therapy? Yeah. I think it's great to have some outlet that's a. By a non biased person that doesn't give kind of a crap about you. For 100 bucks. For a hundred bucks they're like to listen to you and then provide like some reflections.

So when did you realize that you actually were worthy of love, of being rich, of having nice things or buying a house with the money you've earned? When did you realize you were worthy?

I was in Barcelona and I was just recognizing my own life. I was working with this woman, Stephanie, and I was just kind of, I was outside, there's Arc de trium in Barcelona and I remember being outside journaling on this iPad, feeling like wow, like what a cool life I created. Actually finally recognizing my own life and.

Ever it's reflecting back in the last 20 years and all the different things.

Ups and downs, the sadness of what I've done to the, the ex fiance, how I've created this company that I finally get to live, actually live my dream and just kind of, you know, being able to reflect on all of that, it helped me accept it and just enjoy it. Like, hey, money is great. I know people say money can't buy habit. It's definitely made me happier now, finally being able to embrace it.

Once you love and accept yourself and believe you're worthy, then money can buy you additional happiness.

Yes.

But it cannot buy you happiness if you feel unlovable, you don't accept yourself and you don't face the challenges and the pain and the sadness that's within you. Then it's just more sadness because I make this money, but I'm like still shameful about who I am.

Yeah, it's still chasing. It's still this external side. And so with Stephanie it and it's the simplest thing. It's just day by day.

Yeah.

Like do something for yourself. Do something that you're proud of for yourself. Like back in the day we had this thing called Gabby. It was me and my buddy Adam from my body tutor, basically gratitude exercise breakfast. You and if anything, it's just like, just, how do you do one thing for yourself each day where you feel good about yourself? Maybe it's in a relationship. So for me, it was like, all right, I'm dating these women. I have a. I did have a goal. I was like, I'd like to have kids, and I'd like to have a real partner that I'm getting what I want.

When did you realize you wanted to have kids and a partner where it was like a harmonious relationship? When did that come about?

It took. It took years, and it took years. After breaking out the fiance, it was like, back and forth with her and then work with Stephanie. It was like, I really did have to close the door in the past. And there was a visualization of. I couldn't swing to my next branch, holding onto my previous one.

Oh, my goodness.

You know what I'm saying?

Wow.

I was holding on because I was like, I like partying.

Your previous identity, the lifestyle, the.

Yeah, yeah. And wow. It was feeling more harmonious just. Just daily. It was honestly like a daily practice of. I really enjoyed being in Barcelona. I felt like, wow, I get to work on this business. I get to meet interesting people. And then it was directionally. I didn't know, kind of faith, what you were talking about with your stuff. Like, I had faith there's going to be someone out there that I'd eventually now start meeting. But I was being intentional about it. And I told the ex, I sent her a message like, I can't reply to you anymore. And that was hard. That was really.

You closed the chapter.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure she was mad and all these things. I was like, you know, you. I want you to find someone that is good for you.

And so it was still kind of lingering energy, was like, okay, we're not together, but hey, how are you? And checking in and every once in.

A while, waiting for a text intermittently.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you made the decision, like, hey, I cannot communicate with you anymore.

Yeah.

You sent that message.

Yeah.

Did your coach or therapist kind of guide you in that, or was that something within.

Yeah. So she was like, you need to send this message. And I was like, I'm not doing it.

Yeah.

So she was. And. And this is kind of a weird, I would say, hack for others. If you do have coaches or you meet with other people, I'd record my conversations with their permission. It's not secret.

Listen back to it.

Or I listen to myself and I notice. I'm like, huh? Are you proud of how you're. What you did with these dates. Are you proud of how your work is? Are you proud? And then just kind of an interesting moment of reflection. Like when you do content, we do anything, you get a chance to actually learn. And so through that, I was listening to it, and then when I was ready, you know, it takes time for all of us. How many times has someone giving you advice and then you read the book or you listen to something and finally, like the 18th time, you finally accept it. And I kid you not, it was probably about four weeks later when I finally sent it. And then four weeks later, I met Mafe.

Isn't that fascinating?

I know, I know. I hate that story. But the key part, I don't hate the story. I love that story. But one thing that I've changed my perspective on, based on what. What Isaac was asking. I believe I'm more optimistic and not optimistic because, yes, things are good, all these stuff. But, like, how do you be optimistic when things aren't good? And there's a book, Learned optimism, Phenomenal book. And that optimism is a choice. And so, okay, business isn't working out. Business. Still, we still have problems. Like I told you, the YouTube team, most of them quit.

Yeah, yeah.

AppSumo. We still have partners complaining or different things happening. How do you stay optimistic that. Do you think the future's gonna be better than today or not?

Yeah, I think it's gonna be bright.

Yeah. But that's.

Even when things are going down and there's challenges and there's stress, I'm like, this is all happening in my favor for a brighter future.

That's tough, though, when it doesn't feel good, man.

You know, it didn't feel good.

Yeah.

Like many months this year, I was going through a lot of challenges. Just like, man, there's a challenge here in the business and this person, and this is challenging, and revenue's going down and, you know, all these different things. And I was like, you know, after, you know, a period of being frustrated, you know, internally, I was like, okay, how can I look at this in a way, because being frustrated and stressed is not going to cause me to feel better, and it's probably not going to get me into flow and creativity.

Yes.

And I'm probably, you know, stressing my, you know, girlfriend now fiance out or whatever. People around me with that tense energy. It's not like I was explosive or anything, but it was more like I just wasn't my happy self all the time. Right. And I started to shift that energy Internally and say, this is all happening in my favor and maybe this continues for six months or a year. And knowing that I'm going to make sure I put my attention on it, I want to align the right people towards it. We're going to be figuring it out, and eventually we'll figure it out. Hopefully it figures out today, but if not, it's going to be figuring itself out and just take care of my health, my mindset, my attitude. Yeah, I think that's really the only thing we can control is who we are and how we show up. I'm curious about this. Where do you think you'd be if you didn't emotionally and physically send that, that text of like, hey, I'm. I need to close this chapter with this relationship?

Yeah.

Where do you think you'd be right now if you kept that door open? Whether it's with that or any type of door from a previous relationship thing that was kind of holding onto you? Where do you think you'd be? Do you think you'd be in a peaceful, loving, beautiful relationship with a child on the way, or do you think something else would be happening?

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How many times does something bad happen that turned out to be great for me? Every time when people say, do the work, I'm always like, what's the work? You know, you hear, you're like, do the work. I'm like, can you tell me what it is so I can do it? And I think the work is just really trying to understand ourselves, understanding what's going on. Like, do I want to live the way I've been living? And it's like, no, this is not what I want. I'm like, excited to have a family one day. And so, okay, what is necessary for me to feel worthy, Right. To then lead to that kind of.

So what was that thing that was necessary for you to feel worthy of a different life. Financially, emotionally.

Yeah.

Spiritually, you know, family relationship. What was that thing?

There's, there's not, there's not one thing. There's not one day that like I magically woke up because I meditated or something specially happened. I think it was literally like, each day, can I just be a little kinder to myself? Just a little bit more generous to myself and then to others and you know, with the. Let's just take it piece by piece. Right. I have noticed that when my relationship's going well, guess what else is going well? Everything else.

Yeah.

And when one thing's going bad, it's like, maybe these other things are going bad. So let's start working on these different pieces of it.

But I feel like you've always been a very generous person to others. Like since I've known you, you've always been generous, giving, like, willing to jump on a call and say, let me help with anything, strategy or you need an introduction. You're like that with everyone.

Yeah.

So you're very generous outwardly to other people. Were you not generous to yourself?

Yeah, generous with the money.

Really?

Yeah, Like, I didn't really enjoy the money. I told you, I was like living in it. I lived in an 800 square foot house that's falling down literally, like cracks in the floor, cracks in the walls. And it's like. And that's what I thought of myself. This is actually kind of an interesting experience and I do want to answer your question, but I. I'm trying to think more through it. Go back to your old life. Go back to three years ago. I went to my old house about three months ago. I was like, huh, wow. This is what I thought of myself. And your environment. Yeah. It was a representation of what I thought I deserved. And it's interesting for all of us, like what we think we deserve. Do we deserve great families? Do we deserve great, great money? Do we deserve a great where we're living? And then you start realizing like, okay, what's really holding me back from that? And every time it's yourself. And so going through therapy, talking to a therapist, talking with Stephanie, I wouldn't say it's like some. It wasn't some overnight thing.

It was just usually isn't overnight. It's usually a series of events and series of conversations, reflections, integrations. Yeah. Closing of chapters, you know, practices. And then over time it comes together. It's usually not like, oh, the first conversation I had, I learned to love and accept Myself. It's like unwinding and unpacking things that caused us to believe we're unworthy.

Yeah.

And learning to finally integrate that emotionally and physically.

Yes.

With the present day of doing things over and over that show you that you believe you're worthy down. It's not just like, oh, I'm going to think about it now. I'm worthy. It's like, you've got to act on it. Yeah. Continuously. And usually when someone's like, okay, I'm going to let go of this old apartment or whatever, that is really serving my vision of what I want to be stepping into. So let me transition from this to the next thing. Let me leave a job that really isn't the vision I have. And I leave that and I don't know where I'm going to go next. But then magically, something unfolds. It's when we leave a relationship, we finally say, I love you, I appreciate you, but this is not good for either of us. It's time for me to close this chapter 100. How hard that is emotionally. Especially if you've been with someone for years and you've already talked about the future. And unwinding that is extremely hard. But then, boom, something unfolds magically. It seems like out of.

Isn't that funny how that happened?

Isn't it crazy?

I would also.

I was.

I was thinking how it's also experimenting.

Yes.

Like, okay, what if. What would a great relationship. Can I go on a date and just see what a great relationship would be? Like? Maybe could I try and I told you, like, try nice houses. See what that's like, can I try first class? Be like, that's pretty good.

Right.

And then you start feeling like, okay, what do I need to do so that I can feel more comfortable doing these all the time? Besides just the money part.

Yeah.

And I think what the worthy was just day by day just doing things that I felt proud for myself.

Yes.

Like, is my behavior making me proud? Like, there's a lot of times where if I'm about to have a drink, I'm like, do you think you'll feel proud of yourself for making this decision? And that's what I think a lot. And sometimes it's like, yeah, have a drink. Great. And other times like, no, let's not. And I'm like, good, keep saying these kind things to yourself. That's something that I always think the word generous and generous. I think people think of money to others, but I think of generous as words to yourself. Just Be like. And you can also be generous with words to other people too. With your partner or with people you admire. Be generous to yourself. Be like, hey, man, you're doing well. Even if it's not great, or even the success immediately, you can just keep doing it.

Yes.

And there's no one stopping it. It's unlimited.

I know. How do you think someone can become more valuable in the marketplace, become more worthy of financial abundance, of making and earning more? What are some things they can do internally and externally to appreciate and value?

Like to get a better salary or to start their own business?

Either one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I think the thing that I've always found the most fascinating or to.

Create a great relationship or all these things, you know, it's just appreciating in value.

Yeah. The thing that I've always come back to is how can you just go help one person? Like a lot of times on my YouTube channel or at Appsumo or with this book, Like, I don't just go help one person. I think we get, you know, when people want a business, they think about million and they don't get the dollar. And when you actually help another person, you really realize, like, oh, I have a lot more ability and capabilities, really, than I even realized.

Yes.

In the workplace, I think one, everyone should be an entrepreneur so that you have some control over your destiny, whether. And you can keep your data. We have a lot of entrepreneurs at Appsum. We have like Amy, she has a flower shop. Nick has a teeth whitening business. Olman's wife has a facial business. You know, they. And that's great. And so you can have that option within the company. I think it's really. This has been really fascinating, like who gets paid more and why? Like, how come an engineer makes 200 and someone in customer support makes 35. And it's within everyone's ability to recognize, like, what things are getting paid more for. And there's no limit that they can go do those other things. Like, we have a lot of people in our company, like Matt Bean went from launch operations to now he's a product manager. Pretty cool. And there's all these people within our company and elsewhere. It's like, well, if you want more money, there's no limit to what you can create. And so figuring out what is more valuable in a business and then how do you move up that chain?

What do you think are the three most important skills for people to earn more money that they can develop?

Number one is follow up. No one follows up.

Just being Consistent with following up, bro.

No one follows up. It's unbelievable. I like deleting people's emails just to.

See what happens, see if they reply in a week.

DMs, emails, texts, just see what happens. No one follows up. If you really want something, you follow up, you persist. So I'd say that that's one of the best things, number two, I mean, coming back. And I would say it's, how are they learning? What is their learning approach? I've seen different people that are like, yeah, I'm good. This is where I want to be. And it's like, well, you'll stay where you are. And I've seen other people, like, let's take Sean, for instance. He's the head of revenue, appsumo. He was six years ago our junior salesperson. Now he's responsible for 80 million. And that's because Sean kept learning.

Wow.

Right? He has different coaches, he's taking different courses. I'm like, ah, there's something there with that. So you're following up, you're learning. All these skills are available for everyone. There's nothing exclusive. I'd say the last one is attitude.

Oh, gosh, man.

I know it's not these obvious shit, but it's like, dude, who's. It's been interesting to see the attitude of people, especially we've had hundreds of people work at AppSumo, YouTube team, all these people. I've seen a lot of different friends have company. It's like, who's. People whose attitude? And I like people that have solution attitude, like, oh, this didn't work. What else can we do?

That's huge.

And that's not exclusive. Everyone can work on their attitude, no matter what. If you're starting your business, if you're as an employee at a company or whatever it is in a relationship, whatever that is.

I have, you know, half my team is virtual and half my team is here, and Alexandra and Sammy here, who are in the office here. Um, you know, every day I walk in and they just have, you know, just have a good attitude. And for me, you have no idea how far that goes. When, especially as someone who's got challenges, if you're the business owner, you've got challenges of fires you're putting out all day and just different people you're dealing with throughout the day. Right. Decisions to make. So when someone is just consistently following up with a good attitude, even when they got challenges, they don't have to be perfect every day, but it's just like a consistency of a Positive attitude, a solution oriented attitude. You have no idea how valuable that is. Yeah. How, how much people appreciate that. There's been so many times that I've played sports on teams where there was some incredibly freakish athlete just like so talented, like just way better than everyone else, but had the worst negative attitude and it ruined the entire dynamics of the team. And but you're like, oh, but they're so good. But they're just bringing everyone down with their attitude. Yeah. And the moment you remove that person or they remove themselves, it's like, wow, there's this flow and this is like connection and there's this collaboration and there's just this, you know, progress that's more effortless when you remove one person with a negative attitude or they remove themselves for whatever reason.

Yeah.

It's incredible. I'd rather have a team of people who would just have solution oriented attitude than like the superstar talented technical engineer or like graphic designer or video editor with a negative attitude all day long. You can do so much more with positive attitude. I always talk about like the three things we look for are attitude, energy and effort. It's like if you can be consistent with those three things, you got a place here, you know? And those are all things in your control. 100%. They're all in your control. And if you have a learning mindset as well and you keep growing like, then the earning potential just keeps going up more and more so faster. Yeah, man, I love this, man. This is powerful stuff. I don't know if this is what you were thinking about.

No, this is the opposite of literally of what I was thinking we're going to talk about, which is, it's good. It's like I like getting outside of the, like our auto narrative.

Yes, yes.

And. But I don't think it's unique in the sense that we're all going through our own different challenge. Like everyone, you have your own personal life going on. Everyone watching has their own. Like, I've got a family and I'm struggling and maybe I'd like to be an entrepreneur or I've got a day job and it sucks or I want to get a job and you know, we're all going through it.

Exactly. We're all.

Frankly, the real answer is that we're all figuring it out.

We are, man.

And so it's been a journey that I'm happy to share and I've been fortunate to be able to figure it out at 40 where I'm at, then figure it out at 60 or 70, figuring it out.

We're still figuring out once you have your kid and you know the relationship dynamics, it's going to be like, I don't know anything. What do I do now? Right?

Yeah. But I think one of the things that's cool is there's so many other people that have figured these things out or at least have gone through what we're going through. So it's been super cool having the baby that I call up friends. I'm like, what, what? Well, what outfit, what outfit should I buy? Well, for my girl, for my mother, baby mom. I was like, yo, what's cool clothing for her? So late, like this week I was buying cool clothes for her. Or I'm talking to my business partner and he has a baby and I'm like, what apps do you use? And he's like, oh, Wonder Weeks. You got to check out Wonder Weeks and the bump. And so I have these apps now.

I got to check these out.

Oh, wonder.

I mean I'm not.

Yeah, let's get you there, dude. But yeah, now I'm like team baby. Let's go everyone.

Once I'm, once I'm ready, I'm going to be hitting you up, dude, please. You'll have like a year of experience by that time.

Oh, I'd love if you people have kids out there or they, they babysat kids and they have comments or feedback. I'd love, I love suggestions.

Give your parenting tips below.

Yeah, man. So that's been. But there's people out there that have gone through it and like same as appsumo. Who's these coaches that have already gone through it. And so there's been a lot of people that we've asked for, for help.

I've got a few more questions I want to ask you, but I want people to get the book. Million Dollar Weekend. I don't know if anything we talked about here is related to the book, but get the book. Million Dollar Weekend. The surprisingly simple way to launch seven figure business in 48 hours. Packed with battle tested entrepreneurial strategies. I think it's interesting because probably when you wrote this book you were thinking about, okay, what are all the tactical things that I did and other people have done that they can actually launch with strategy and game plan and goal setting and team and delegation and optimization and all these different strategies which are time tested and backed. But a lot of these entrepreneurs, they are successful in that but then they forget how to love themselves, love other people, have healthy relationship with self, feel worthy and deserving of the success they're having manage the success without overwhelming stress. Like there's all these other emotional things that we need to learn once we create that if we don't learn them before. And I'm glad you're talking a lot about those things right now. Speaking of having kids and billionaires, you've interviewed a lot of mega millionaires, billionaires who do have kids. And I'm assuming some of them have regrets around not being there for their kids as much as they like to, or not being as emotionally available, focusing more on the business than them. And then there's others that maybe did it really great and they showed up for their kids in a beautiful way and they built their business in a big way. How do. Without being a parent yourself yet, but interviewing a lot of parents with a lot of money, what have you learned from rich people with kids on how to not ruin their kids? With access to a private jet, with access to unlimited money, with access to the best private teachers and everything. And, you know, just without spoiling their kids. How do you raise conscious, loving, generous, healthy, kind humans when you are mega rich?

Yeah, I'll find out. I'll tell you.

What have you learned from people you've interviewed?

Yeah, I mean, I'd say the number one thing is how are you leading by example in all aspects.

Yeah.

So how are you showing up yourself? Are you deleting? I was. I heard a story where these rich people hired a nanny and then the kids never even saw the parents.

Wow.

Are you doing the dirty work? Are you doing the dishes? Are you showing up for it? Are you just outsourcing everything and not showing up for your responsibility? And how are the parents treating money? Because I think if you earn money, which I think everyone should have a chance to do it, which they do, and you have access to be able to have help, to get groceries, to buy whatever things you want. And you shouldn't do that. You should definitely do that. It makes your life easier. But I think it's figuring out, like, what are the parts you really want to impact on your kids and how are you teaching them that? By doing it yourself. And so that's something that with Mafe, it's talking about, like, how do we want to do? We want to have a bunch of staff. And I'm like, no, we should both of us have agreed, let's do the hard work in the beginning. And then we figure out, okay, where is it? We don't need to always do these things. And we can hire help around that stuff.

Sure, sure.

So that to me is how we're looking at it.

Wow.

I think most of the other people probably have been so focused on this money. And I remember with Mafe, I brought her to my house. It's a $2 million house. It's gone down because the market's going down. You know, maybe it's one and a half by the time you watched it. I remember brought her to my house, and she goes in the door. And I'm like, when I've brought over dates in the past, it was a very long time ago. I'm like, look at this house.

I'm the man.

Look at this house. Look at this photo of me once you walk in, you know, right there. And she didn't give two. I was like, what the. I did all this work. You're supposed to be impressed. She's like, and I remember. And I asked her about it a few months ago. I was like, you came over to my house. You didn't give two. You didn't care about it at all. She's like, I just care about who you are.

Wow.

And I was like, what? You know, I was like, did all this work. And it was a beautiful moment of. Just for all of us. That's beautiful. Like, who are we without any of these extra things? Right. Who are you as a parent? Who are you as an individual? How are you showing up for as a. As a partner in your business, in your relationship at work, whatever that is. And that was a great moment. I'm very lucky to be with someone like her.

Wow.

That in parenting, I have a great partner in that. And then how am I showing up? That just as a dad?

And I.

And I asked a friend of mine, I was going to say, how do you. How do you be good parents? I feel there's people who had great parents and they go to therapy. There's people who had bad parents go to therapy and all these things. The friend was like, it's hard to say how that's going to happen. You just have to give a. And that's it. And that's it. Just show up leaping, give a on these kids. And you can't really control all the other outcomes of this stuff, but if you're doing that, you're doing your best around it.

That's beautiful, man. What's the thing that you say you're most proud of of yourself in the last few years that you've done or overcome?

I think not hating on myself so much, not being so critical around all these things has been a huge breakthrough. I'm very proud of this book. I'm insanely proud of it. That's why I have no problem going and talking about it, because I worked my off with tall. Like, at first, I was. I was afraid. And this is everyone out there, like, what are you afraid of? Let's go into it, do your thing, realize you're capable of it, and be like, I can do some things out there. Being a partner and showing up for Mafe, which is like, what are you actually committed to? What are you actually committed to? And when you commit, you show up. And so I'm very proud, especially now that she's pregnant. Like, how am I showing up as a partner for what she needs?

It's beautiful.

Like, am I up at. When she's puking at night? Right. Or whatever it is that, you know, she needs food or a thermometer or different stuff to take care of her.

Wow, that's beautiful, man.

So, yeah, I'm really proud of myself. And that's taken. That's taken a long time. Maybe 20 years.

Wow, man.

Yeah. To be able to get to that point, that's beautiful. And that's not an overnight thing. That's like doing these little things each day for myself, showing up for her. And over time now with all these things, they've come together nicely.

What's the thing you love about her the most?

She's kind. I always. The thing. I generally think, like, she's really hot on the inside. Yeah, she's. And she's so kind. And I think we all have to unlearn some of our older dating relationships, and I mentioned it to you earlier, where I would do things and I'd always feel in trouble. I don't know if it's some childhood thing or whatnot, but I was.

Me too.

I always felt like I'm in trouble here. And I remember there's one day recently, this is about two months ago, before we found out we're having the kid, and she's like, you know, I'm on your team.

Wow. You probably never heard that.

No, I never have.

What's that feel like, having a teammate?

It's funny. My first thought is unworthy. Like. I know, I know. It's still, like, something to work on. It's not. You can have two thoughts. We can all can. It doesn't mean you're. Oh, no. I'm feeling jealous. So that's a bad. No. Guess what? Go to the next one.

Yeah.

It feels lucky. I feel very lucky to be able to feel good about myself. To be able to be with someone who is just also like, such a special person. Like, holy, how did I find this other person that I feel like, yeah, I can be a great partner for her too.

Wow.

It feels amazing.

You've been doing the work, you know, consistently, and you've had to close certain chapters of an old identity.

Yeah.

To allow you to step into a new identity and a new chapter. But if you were hanging on to another branches because you're afraid to let go and jump into the next one, you know, it's still. You wouldn't have this. It wouldn't be available.

It's like, how do you believe when it's scary? How do you believe and be optimistic? There's a great job out there, a great business out there, a great partner out there, great self. And I think some of that is also that it's not really out there is the problem. And I think especially entrepreneurs were like, oh, well, I need to go. I need to go outside and try to do this stuff. It's like, how do we just spend. It's like, how do you spend it inside?

Yeah.

And not chase the outside, the validation of these things.

How do you spend it inside?

Yeah.

What do you mean by that?

How do you spend it inside? How do you work on just being at peace with yourself? How do you work just accepting, like, hey, I don't know these things and that's okay. Like, I'm doing my best as a partner. Maybe I make a mistake and that's okay.

Right.

And just kind of continually kind of going through that process now at this place, and Isaac was commenting, and I feel more calm. I don't feel like, okay, I don't have as many subs or I don't make. I make. I'm so happy with how much money I make. I'm so happy where I get to live. I'm like, this is great. And that, you know, that takes time to be able to get to that place.

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Yeah. A lot of times we see people spend money on the outside to try to make up for what they're lacking on the inside.

Yeah.

Why? We see that a lot. And you were, you know, you weren't spending on the outside and you weren't spending on the inside. You were like, you know, living in like an environment that was crumbling. And you weren't investing externally because you didn't feel like you're worthy. Yeah. And you weren't investing internally to feel worthy either.

Yeah.

It feels like it seems like you've been making steps to do wealth. I've been in the same boat where, you know, I lived on my sister's couch for a year and a half and then I had just like, my first apartment was $400 a month. And I was like, I went a couple of years without a car and I was just like, okay, let me be as frugal as possible because I don't want to be broke again. Let me save as much as I can so that I never go back to feeling like I need to rely on anyone else to live. Because it's not a good feeling, not being able to take responsibility for your life.

Yes.

And needing someone else, especially as a 25 year old living off your sister or your brother. Right. It didn't feel good. And so I had to learn how to overcome that fear. I remember I was like, it wasn't until, I mean, for like 10 years probably, I was like, how can I get the cheapest flight, middle seat, back row, like multiple connections to save that extra $200. Right. And like just a better seat on a flight or something. I had to really unlearn those things as well and be like, okay, but my back feels broken. You know, I feel like my knees, I like I'm sitting like this because my knees are against the front. Like, let me invest in a little bit more comfort so that I feel better and I can deliver when I get off this plane or whatever. You know, I never would get a hotel room. I was always like, I'm not paying for a hotel room. I'm going to stay at a friend's couch for years. Because I was like, $250 a night for a room. What can I do with that money? You know? Yeah. And it took me a long time to be like, no, I deserve having like six inches of legroom. You know, I'm tall guy.

Yeah.

I deserve having like a comfortable bed and like having a hotel room when I travel and not just begging to like crash on someone's couch to save an extra $200 a night. Like it took me a while to like unlearn that.

What helped you feel that you started feeling worthy of deserving these things. I think that's like such a powerful. You're right. Like to all this stuff you have to feel like to have a million dollar business you have to feel like you also can deserve doing it. And getting to that point, I think.

I felt guilty too. It's like I didn't find my buy my first home until this year. I lived in two bedroom apartments for the last 15 years essentially.

Right.

And which is not a bad thing. Like I was comfortable, I liked it, it was like convenient, it was flexible. All these different things. But I think it was always, was always like feeling guilty. Like, you know, I have this money, I should be giving more of it away. I should be helping more people, which I give a lot away already. But I was like, you know, do I need this just because I can afford it, do I need it? And I still. And I have a really nice two bedroom apartment which is a good environment. It wasn't like crumbling.

Yeah.

So it was always like, okay, do I need this? Should I invest in this? And I even had a conversation last week with my therapist about investing in stuff that I don't need. I'm like, I was having, going back and forth on, you know, I, I have this really nice home that has been like a dream home that I want to live in for the next 10 plus years. It's everything I want for the next decade of my life. With kids, with family visiting, it's like a sanctuary. And I was like, okay, but I.

Kind of want to have like a.

Couple pieces of gym equipment, but they're expensive. Like having a treadmill in like, but I don't need that because I have a gym membership. Then I go to the gym all the time so I don't need to spend more money. And I was going back and forth for like a couple months on this. I was like, ah, it's like a big investment. It's like. But I. But she was like, okay, yes, you don't need it, but do you want to have the environment that saves you time, that optimizes your time so you can help and serve more people? Yeah, but I'm like, yeah, but I can take 20 minutes and go to the gym you know, but she's like, yes, and you can live in abundance. It's not that you don't have the money. So it was overcoming that fear of, like, yes, I do deserve it, if that's something I want, you know, And I'm not doing it to be flashy. It's doing it to, like, optimize my health and my. Have more time and invest in that, you know, that, that. That value of habits around health. Yeah. You know, and I was kind of like, yeah, I just never want to miss an opportunity to take care of my health. And this will give me that, you know, if the gym's closed or I can't make it, I'll never have a, you know, excuse. So it's just learning. I'm constantly learning how to do that at different levels.

Yeah.

Because I'm still like, yeah, I don't need to do this. Like, life is good. I don't know. It's a constant journey.

It's tough. I mean, I would say that what I've observed in businesses, where typically in business is where I've learned about myself the most. And it's a lot of fear. We're just all. A lot of us, especially people starting businesses, are afraid. And so you're afraid of feeling like we deserve these things. And it sounds kind of crazy, doesn't it, as you say it out loud? Like, oh, do I deserve gym equipment? Do I deserve having crazy? Yeah, it's a little crazy.

It's crazy.

And the reality.

Have a gym membership and, like, that's enough.

Yeah.

And.

And I think for a lot of people out there, that maybe it's a relationship, maybe it's a business, maybe it's something else. It's like, what can you do that you're a little afraid of? Maybe not a big afraid, but like, a little afraid that you can practice. Like, we've done the coffee challenge. You heard the challenge. Now, coffee challenge is something that if you're afraid of asking, which is one of the reasons people haven't had success, you ask for a discount when you buy coffee.

I ask every day for a discount everywhere.

Do you really?

Everything I buy, my man, I ask discounts. I say, what's the chance you can give me 10% off everywhere on a piece of clothes, a coffee, whatever. Maybe not every day. I'm exaggerating, but frequently. And my fiance watches me do this all the time. And she's kind of like, ah, you know, what are they going to say? But now she's in on it, too.

It's good.

Because I'm like, hey, what are they going to say?

No.

Okay, then you don't get it.

Exactly. No ask, no get. And so, you know, with these things of feeling like we deserve stuff, how do we face some of the fears? So the coffee challenge is like, you know, can I ask for something, get rejected, and realize, oh, and I can ask for other things that I want in life.

Right. Don't you have this thing in the book called the creator's Courage?

The courage in general. And the creator's courage is like, how do you keep facing fears?

Yes. Constantly.

In small ways. It doesn't have to be some. I have to go and do videos on the street or I have to.

Go, like, public speaking or something.

Yeah. Or change my job. Can you do something small? Put yourself out, maybe on social media. Ask one person to be your customer. Ask someone if you could do something like, to mow their lawn and maybe like, hey, if you like it, you can pay me next time. And so it's doing these small activities. Maybe it's the coffee challenge, like, seems like you're an expert in it that you can do that's available to anyone worldwide. But you can start feeling a little bit more courageous. You can start thinking, like, what else could I do? And that's the thing a lot of times for holding us back. Like, I felt I wasn't afraid of starting, which is what most people are. I wasn't afraid of asking. But that's where the book actually focused on. I'm afraid of feeling like I deserve this stuff. Yeah. And so it's working on that. Like, okay, let me try treating myself to something and be like, maybe got a Rolex. That's kind of cool. I was like, kind of like it. Getting a nice bike. I remember that I finally got a nice bike, and I was like. Felt kind of like, bad.

Like, oh, I got like, no, man. Dude.

I go back and forth, but it's feeling like we. We are worthy of these things.

I go back and forth on this. My friend got me a Rolex. One of my best friends for my 40th birthday. It was like, I want to get you something nice.

Right.

And so he got me a Rolex. It wasn't like a $50,000 Rolex, but it was a Rolex. Right. I see you wearing one, and I've only worn it, like, three or four times.

Yeah.

Now, part of it is that I kind of just wear the same outfit every day. You know, you're wearing a T shirt. I wear the same Like, I don't know, $50 shirt every day. I mean, I have multiple of them and it's like the same few different shirts and the same pair of jeans, the same pair of shoes pretty much every day.

Okay.

And so part of it is that I, I, I don't want to be flashy ever. And also when it's like, I don't want to people to think that like I'm better than them or that I'm like too flashy.

Yeah.

I'm not, you know, I don't look at you that way with wearing your role, like something that within me, it's like, you know, I'm, I'm the most well off in my family. Like, I've, I've made the most money in my family and I'm the youngest of four. And so it's like, okay, I don't want to like, show off also.

Yeah.

So it's. How can you enjoy nice things and feel proud of them? Not like 100% bad or guilty or something like that.

Why do we take ourselves down?

I don't know.

No, no. But it's interesting. We take ourselves down because we feel like we're not supposed to. Right. And it's interesting. This Rolex I got because when Mafe got pregnant and so I bought, I bought three of them and I gave my two other friends got have pregnant women. And so we each have matching Rolexes with our, for our kids. And it's something that I used to feel kind of like I'm going to wear a cheap watch. I used to not even wear watches, but I'm going to wear a cheap watch because I don't want to be flashy. But then I was like, why can't we be more proud of ourselves? There's an interesting arrogance, like, I'm the greatest. And clearly I'm talking about how I'm unworthy. Like, I don't like. And I'm, you know, I'm doing, I think, things I'm really proud of and I'm proud of finding an amazing partner and then that she's wanting to be the mother of my child and I get to be a great partner for her and do my best for that. And so I wore it out because I'm like, I'm proud of her and proud of myself.

That's cool, man.

And so that is what this means to me.

Yeah.

And so it does. It's not again, you know, worthiness. It's not some magical thing you can hear and be like, well, today I'm Worthy. It's just like, let me do some small thing that makes me feel good about myself today and maybe do it a few times today and then do it tomorrow. And continually over time, that adds up right to where it's like, okay, yeah, I'm proud of what I've done, and I can tell other people about it, and that's okay.

Yeah. Your child is 18, going off to college. You're 49, almost 50. Let's say you're 50 at that time. Right. Your child is going off to college. What is the thing that you want your child to be most proud of about you over these next 18 to 20 years that your child witnesses and experiences from you as a father, as a husband to their mother? What's the thing you want them to be most proud of when they go off to college, if that's what they choose to do?

I was writing my girlfriend today, and I wrote like, you're. You're a good mommy. And I was like, oh, like, that was kind of wild. Just to realize this is all coming true and, like, that these great lives are out there for everyone, and it takes time. It takes time to be patient and acknowledge that. For my daughter, I hope I have a daughter, might be a boy, but I still. I love him probably a little bit less. What do I want for them?

What do you want them to be most proud of about you?

Yeah.

How you showed up for them.

Yeah.

Your wife, your. You know, and everything you go through, your business, your life.

Yeah.

What do you want them to be most proud of?

I have my best friend, Adam Gilbert, from I. I really admire him as a father, and he said. He said this to me, and I. I'm copying it because I think it's a great approach. He's like, I never want to say no. I was like, what do you mean? He's like, if they want to go play soccer, if they want to play basketball, if they want to go to the park, I always want to be available. And I. That's what I like that when my kid knows when they're 18, as well as 10 or well as 28, that I was there and my dad had his own experiences and when I was younger where he didn't show up and I just want to be there. They're like, there's never a no.

Right? That's cool, man. It's beautiful. Yeah. Million Dollar Weekend. Make sure you guys get a copy. Talk about make sure you guys get a copy. If you want to learn all the strategies about. I think it's cool, though. You, you talk about how to, you know, how to make time to run a multiple seven figure business, a YouTube channel, how to have a healthy relationship, all these different things. How to find your freedom number. This is really interesting because I think a lot of people don't know what their number is. So how do you find that freedom number and just say, oh, I don't need to be some massive, you know, financially rich person. I can strive for this thing, which will give me everything else I want?

Yeah. I always thought it was risky to have a day job. I just thought it was so risky. And I met this guy Jake recently. He's got three kids and he's like, I don't want to live a what if life. I never wanted to live this what if life where if I didn't try the thing, I'd regret it.

Yeah.

And people have had these ideas of, I'd like to make a little bit more money or I've had this idea. Jake wanted to do golf trips and it's like, I don't want to spend. He spent two years thinking about it and in one week. And he was able to get it going and change his life.

Yeah.

Try it on the side.

And so it's like, how do you get out of that what if life? And my idea is the book is that people buy it and take action.

Absolutely.

For themselves.

Yeah, yeah. Don't buy it and don't not take action. Yeah. Make sure you get it and take the actions on it. If you've got some type of dream or goal or project you're working on or want to work on, make sure you get this and start taking action. This is a question I ask everyone towards the end of the interviews called the Three Truths. So imagine hypothetical world. It's the last day on earth for you, many years away. You get to live as long as you want. You extend your life to any age possible.

I like that.

And you get to experience all of your visions and dreams in real time. And they all happen.

Yeah.

With every area of life. But for whatever reason, on this last day, everything you've ever created has to go with you. This interview, all your YouTube content, this book, like the messages you shared with the world we don't have access to for whatever reason. Hypothetical. But you get to leave one final message behind. That's all we would have to remember your information by. And I call that Three Truths. It's kind of your three biggest lessons. If you could fast forward in time to that final day and think about all the lessons you've already had and all the lessons you're going to have. What would be those final three truths for you?

I have a belief that there's no such thing as legacy. And so if there's nothing that comes with you, then you should leave everything on the table here and not be so worried if people remember you. And so how are you behaving and how are you actually living the life you really want to live? So that would be one truth, which is just live the life you want to live now and no one's going to remember you afterwards. Elon Musk, by the way, no one's going to care about him a thousand years, 100%. So what life do you want to live and leave it all out while you're doing it? Another truth. You know, people have heard of this, like, how do you treat others? You know, that's a truth. I think I would say a truth I'd love to everyone is just send someone something nice today, just a text, even like a call, a dm, and have a little, you know, I would say just with that, just be generous, like, go and tell someone something nice right now. Everyone can do it. It's available.

Yeah.

I would encourage everyone to be an entrepreneur. I got it. I would say, you know, with that, in terms of everyone, you know, maybe not chase entrepreneurship, but. But just be who they are. Right. I think it's. We think we're supposed to be these other people and then really just being like, well, who do I want to be? Yeah, maybe I do think everyone should try entrepreneurship, but find out who you want to be. Don't chase the outside of it. Just chase internally.

Yeah.

Like, oh, cool. I like these things. And really going after that.

Sure. It's beautiful, man. Before I ask the final question, I want to acknowledge, you know, for the consistency over, you know, 20 years of. Yeah. Creating, discovering, and overcoming yourself.

Yes.

I want to acknowledge you for being committed over the last three years to letting go of old things that don't serve and support a future vision that you want, taking the courage and taking the risk to overcome that and let go of things that are scary to let go of, that are hard to let go of. I've been there, too. And really having the emotional awareness to love and accept yourself. I think that's what I'm most proud of about you and acknowledge you for. Because a lot of people get praised for the business, the success, the accomplishments and the money they make, the numbers they have. But most people will never, you know, it'll never be a headline in Time magazine about how you learn to love and accept yourself and feel worthy. And I think that's the most valuable thing you can do for yourself and those around you. So I really acknowledge you for that. Man. It takes the most courage of all to feel and love yourself. And I'm sure it's probably some of the hardest challenges you've had in the last few years going through that journey.

It's lonely.

Yeah.

And it's alone and it's yourself. And we all have to face ourselves in some way and we can avoid it or we can eventually face it. Like even this book or YouTube or relationships and you face it and you're like, oh, I'm probably better than I think and I'm more capable than I realize.

Absolutely, man. Love it, man. Final question. What's your definition of greatness? Oh.

I think definition of greatness is that you're doing what you want. Like you're doing what you actually want. Like what do I really want? You work your off, you work hard and then you're proud of it. Whether you get the accolades or recognition of any of these things, you're proud of yourself. I think that's great.

There you go. No my man. Appreciate it brother.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness.

Make sure to check out the show.

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