Turn Sadness Into A Superpower & Find Wholeness In Your Life EP 1287

In our culture, we know joy is a superpower. No one will doubt that one. What we need is to resurrect the power of sadness. And the power of it is, as we've said, that it's one of the most powerful ways that we have.

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. How does the class begin? Bittersweet. I think it's something that connects with both of us specifically recently. We both had people close to us pass away. And for me, when my father passed a few months ago, it was a time of fully allowing myself to express my range of emotions. Sadness, some resentment, some anger, some frustrations, but just a lot of sadness. But at the same time, I went back to my hometown, to my old house, and there was a lot of gratitude. There was a lot of appreciation, gratitude, and joy. And I don't know if you experienced that when you had family members pass recently, where there was both sadness and loss of joy and gratitude. but that's what I felt, and that's what I continue to feel.

Yeah, I feel like such a dizzying mix of emotions that you end up having. And for me, with both the loss of my father and my brother, the first emotion that I had in both cases was nausea, actually. And I had it for days. It didn't go away. Yeah, I think it was just like a profound, you know, feeling of like the ground is pulled out from under you. Yeah, just the sense of the finality, that which used to be will never be again, like that kind of feeling. Both times I had to just really absorb that first. But I don't know, with my father in particular, I guess what took the place of that pretty quickly in... My father was a person who He was a really bittersweet person in his own way. And he really loved beauty. So he was like, he was a medical school professor and he worked like crazy long hours, but he would come home late at night and he would always have these things he was doing. Like he loved orchids, he just thought they were beautiful. So he built a greenhouse full of orchids in the basement.

Really?

Yeah, and he would just like cultivate these orchids that the only people who would see them were like him and the family. You know, and he loved the sound of the French language, so he would teach himself how to speak French. He spoke French?

He was fluent or is?

Yeah, I believe. He understood some of it. I think he was like mostly fluent.

By the time he was done.

That's pretty cool. Yeah, and you know he loved music, I love music so much and I write about it in Bittersweet, and he was the one who really taught me to love it so much. He was like playing it for me from the time I was a little kid. So after he died, like every time I listen to music or see something that I know he would have appreciated, I don't know, like in the beginning it was like, oh my gosh, I wish so much that I could tell him this or share this with him. But then I was able to move to a place of like, well, he's still here with me in some way. And I love these things because he loved them too. You know, whether Whether we're sharing it for genetic reasons or because he taught it to me, like we're, I feel like there's still a togetherness there. So that's been great to-- Do you.

Feel more connected after his passing than when he was here, spiritually?

No. No. No, I think it's more just that it's similar, that it hasn't changed as much as I thought it was gonna change.

Really?

Yeah, something like that.

So there was sadness, but was there also, A sweetness to it after this, after him passing?

I mean, I guess the sweetness is like that it's made me take stock of all the different, you know, things that he gave to me.

Yes.

Like everything I was just describing to you. Yeah, like I really like live my life thinking all the time about beauty. I don't know why it matters so much to me, but it just really does. And I think it was really only after he died that I became as intensely aware as I now am of how much that comes from him.

Wow. What would you say was the biggest lesson that he taught you?

Well, it was that, but there was just a way that he lived his life that was like, you know, just do the right thing without any mess or fuss. He was not a person who cared about the spotlight one way or another. so, you know, my first book, quiet, was about introverts. And I think it's. I mean, everyone in my family is introverted, so I got these lessons from everyone in the family. But I would look at my father and, like, everything that he did was because he was a quiet person who would, like, spend a lot of time, you know, pouring over medical journals and doing everything that he needed to do to be really good at what he did. And he didn't care about. the spotlight. So then, so I would go from that and then look around at the culture that is telling you, you know, you have to be the kind of person who wants to be in the spotlight all the time. And there was like this total mismatch between what I was observing with him and at home versus what the culture was saying. And that, I think, was what enabled me to question the cultural message that we were getting.

Did you have a lot of confusion growing up then when other people were about the spotlight and you were kind of Happy being more isolated, I guess?

Oh yeah, totally. I mean, not so much isol- like I always like to connect with people, but I liked to connect one-on-one.

Not in big groups.

Yeah, not in big groups, and really, like, everything that I do now that's in the spotlight is always like, oh my god, I'm stepping so far outside my character, and it's like in the service of work that I really love, so I do it.

Yes.

But it's not really my core. Right. So yeah.

It's a constant process of working through that. You talk about being whole when you're experiencing sorrow and pain and sadness and all these things. How does someone feel whole when there's so much pain in their life?

Well, because they're humans. So humans have pain. That's part of what it is to be human. And like, I define bittersweetness as being a deep recognition that joy and sorrow are forever paired in this world and that everything in this world is impermanent. You know, the people we love will not be here forever, but there's something about really intensely knowing that that connects you to a kind of piercing joy at how beautiful everything is. So it's like, I don't think you can feel whole if you're doing, you know, the sort of toxically positive thing of always plastering a cheerful smile on your face and never talking about what's really happening. that's not wholeness. That's just like self-presentation. It's a complete different thing.

So how does someone get to a place of knowing their hole when all they feel is sadness and darkness?

Well, if you're only feeling sadness and darkness, you're probably going, you're probably situated too far on the other extreme, and you might be needing to figure out what's keeping you locked only in that place. So I think it's a process of being open to all the emotions that we have and asking, you know, what do each of these emotions tell us? What does this pain that I have tell me? You know, like if you're experiencing, let's say, huge pain over a breakup, that's telling you that you have that pain because you care about love and about relationships. So it's like the pain is pointing you directly to what do you care about most. And once you know what you care about most, you can lean further into that thing, as opposed to what you could alternatively do, is say, I'm feeling all this pain, so maybe I shouldn't have relationships anymore. You know, I keep having pain over and over again, so I better reconsider this whole thing.

That was me. It was always painful.

Yeah. Right? And did you ever think, well, maybe I just shouldn't do this at all?

Well, I was always like, okay, being in a relationship for a period of time is beautiful. until it's not, and then eventually it turns into pain and suffering. Being single is freeing and fun and peaceful until it's not, when I feel a longing of intimacy and vulnerability and true deeper connection as opposed to kind of surface level connections. It was like, okay, I really craved intimacy and vulnerability, but every time I dove into that, I found myself suffering and in pain and heartache. And so I was really figuring out the process of getting back to wholeness and not, it's almost like I getting to a place where I didn't need it and I was so whole with myself and my own vulnerability and intimacy and then being able to create a relationship based out of wholeness, not out.

Of.

A wound or something that I was lacking. And that's where it really started to shift Right, right.

Yeah, no, that makes total sense. So it sounds like each time you could either spend six months in the relationship and then get to the wall or six months in singlehood and then get to the wall of loneliness.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

But I never figured out how to break through the wall until recently. What would you say is the hardest emotion for you to overcome or learn how to manage where it wasn't like holding you back in a big way?

For me personally, the emotions of sorrow and longing that I talk about in the book have actually always been ones that I do manage pretty well and see the beauty in them. So for me personally, the one that's been the most difficult, I would say, is anxiety.

Really?

Oh yeah, yeah.

What type of anxiety? Well, you know-- Social anxiety or just anxiousness around what?

I guess a little bit of both. You know, I just have a proneness to a kind of low-level anxiety so that, I don't know. If I have a lot of things that I need to get done, like until I'm really on it.

You feel a little stressed or anxious or.

Yeah, yeah. And then we were talking before we came online, you know, that all my life I had this historic, terrible public speaking anxiety. And that one I really did overcome, but it was a huge thing that overshadowed my life for decades really.

Really?

Oh yeah, yeah, it was huge.

Would it cripple you or would it just, It would consume your energy a week or two getting ready for the speech.

It was a little bit of both. It was like before the speech, I wouldn't be able to eat for like a week. I wouldn't really sleep. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You couldn't eat for a week? I couldn't eat for a week. Totally, can't eat peanuts or something or some- yeah, yeah, just like the bare minimum. Just to stay alive. Yeah, like you'd get hungry enough and.

Then you'd eat something. I mean in four days, I need.

To stay alive for this beach. Yeah, wow. Yeah, and I could always like grit my teeth and get through the speech, but I don't think I did a great job, but I didn't do a terrible job either.

Like I would just grit my teeth. All your speeches, you always look incredible and like on it and you remember everything and you're connecting with the audience.

You look like you're a trained pro. Well, I don't feel all those things anymore. Like I actually really did overcome this one. Yes. Which was not easy, but there's a magic way to overcome any kind of fear. I'm curious if you did this with your public speaking anxiety that you used to have. The secret is just desensitization of exposing yourself to the thing that you fear, but in really small doses. So that's what I did. I went to seminars for people with public speaking anxiety, and I went to Toastmasters.

Toastmasters, that's what I did.

Yeah, yeah.

It worked for me.

It really works, because you have to practice in a supportive environment where it doesn't matter how much you screw up.

Toastmasters was the foundation for me, because I could not get in front of a group of five people like I was telling you before without forgetting everything. I remember thinking, how am I gonna give a two-minute speech? Like, what can I say? That's interesting for two minutes. Five minutes felt like five hours.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I remember going to Toastmasters for the first time. I was 24. I was terrified. And it was all these, like, you know, 30, 40, 50 year old professionals in suits and had been speaking for decades, and I'm sitting there. this bum just got done playing football trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life in a t-shirt. I cut off t-shirt walking in like I'm not in the right place, but that was exactly where I needed to be. I remember they said, okay, your first speech is an icebreaker. Five minutes long. Right. I go, I spent two weeks writing down word for word the speech and I was like, I have no idea what I'm going to say for five minutes. And I entered the Toastmasters for the first time, sweating, dripping sweat. I stood behind the podium because I was so afraid to get in front of people. So, I needed the barrier. And I had my papers up there and I literally looked down the whole time and just read like this to make sure I didn't miss anything. Flipped the page, read the whole time and then at the end looked up. And I remember feeling like, Man, I am such a loser. I'm so bad. I'm the worst person here. They're gonna make fun of me. And obviously in Toastmasters, they can't make fun of you. They have to be supportive, right? Semi-encouraging and give constructive feedback. And they were great, but they were like, you know, next time try to look up once. You know, it was like, next time try to smile. You know, next time take a deep breath. And so, as opposed to small doses, I threw myself in every week, giving myself another speech. And I said, every time I go, I need to get up for table topics, which I don't know if you remember.

--Yeah, yeah.

Which were those?

--Wait, are those the ones that are impromptu table topics?

--Yeah. --It was like improv public speaking. And so I remember saying every time.

I have to do this because I.

Don'T want to do it. --Right, right.

--Anything that made me feel uncomfortable, I just said, okay, I have to get up and do this. --And did you ever like stay home?

Like it's Tuesday night, let's say, time to go to Toastmasters. --I went every time. --Yeah. --'Cause I was, This is a period of my life where I had nothing else going on. I was on my sister's couch, I was broke, and I was like, I want to overcome this fear. So I was like, I'm going every week, I found a mentor from the Toastmasters who I meet with every week as well at night at his place and go over my next speech. And I'd practice it with him. I was like, I'm coming-- you-'re probably.

The only person in the history of Toastmasters who's ever done that. That's amazing.

I was committed because I knew that This was crippling me. This fear, this inability to stand in front of a few people and say a message would cripple me for the rest of my life if I didn't overcome it.

That was exactly how I felt also.

Really?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And I used to be a corporate lawyer and I didn't care deep down, I think, that much about corporate law. So I was never invested enough to overcome the fear when I was doing that. But then when I became a writer, and I cared so much about what I was doing. Yeah, and I just felt like, oh my gosh, you can't nowadays do this profession without being able to go out and speak about it. So that was when I had the motivation to do what you were just describing. I'm like, oh my God, I'm gonna show up every week even though I hate this. You just keep doing it. And yeah, and I think people who don't have it don't understand what it's like. But the thing that you said about that you needed the podium? At the seminar that I went to for specifically people overcoming this fear.

I didn't even know there was a thing that was like overcoming fear public speaking seminar.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's in New York City. I think it's still going. It's run by this guy, Charles de Cagny. It's called, I think, the Public Speaking Center of New York. It's great. And he does exercises where it's like you'd stand in front of everybody with other people on either side of you, and all you'd have to do is answer some questions about yourself. But the idea of having the other people next to you is like you're not alone in the spotlight. Oh, because you're being on stage is terrifying alone. Right, so you're practicing being on stage, but you're not up there all alone.

So that's like the whole little by little idea. Do you answer a question and they just stand next to you and they're not doing anything? Like it's just one person's answering at a time.

It's not everyone's answering. Right, it's just one person. So like let's say it's my turn. I'm like up there, I've got two people here, two people here. They're not saying anything. I'm the only one. On the hook. But they're there with you and that changes ratchets it down a little bit.

Interesting.

Yeah, and then little by little, you go up there on your own the next week.

Yeah, I think the thing I like about Toastmasters is they give you a new prompt every time you do a speech. Okay, this one let's use a prop. This one use vocal variety. This one, whatever. Say people's name or something.

And what's great also, like, I mean, we were talking a lot before we came online about vulnerability and, you know, to what extent does our culture allow it? I feel like a group like a Toastmasters, it's actually allowed to talk about that because so many people are there for that purpose. Like, I had assumed when I first went that it was gonna be all these, you know, amazing, confident speakers who are just there to put the cherry on the icing on top. Yeah. But it wasn't. It was more like people who really needed to work on it. So I would say that was one of my first public spaces of really talking about these kinds of topics in an out-there way.

And you practiced these topics there first before you took it out into the public, right?

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

On a scale of one to ten, when you wrote Quiet, when it came out there and it was on the New York Times bestseller list for the first year, let's say, on a scale of one to ten, How much self-love and confidence did you have after a year of accomplishing these accomplishments?

How much self-love?

How much self-love and confidence, like lack of anxiety, did you say you had when you were after the first year? And 10 being like you loved yourself the most and had no anxiety, one being you had a ton of anxiety. and you were questioning like self-love or you weren't loving yourself to the full capacity.

Do you mean about like public appearances or just in general?

Internally, how you felt.

Just internally. I think internally I was okay. I think I was feeling, I think I was feeling pretty darn good.

You were feeling good.

Yeah, I was feeling pretty darn good. Yeah, because I had wanted to, you- were feeling good. Yeah, I mean, I'd wanted to be a writer since I was four, and I had spent so many years off in this gigantic detour of being a lawyer. And then suddenly this dream I had always had had come true.

Amazing. Yeah.

And, I mean, you know this feeling of like, then you get letters from people and they tell you what it might have meant to them, and that's the best thing in the world. I don't really know of anything better, work-wise. Right. So, yeah, I think it's- When did.

You feel, have you felt pretty consistent with those emotions over the last 10 years then? Or have there been times where you've doubted yourself in the last 10 years?

Oh, no. I mean, I don't think you can help but sometimes doubt yourself, but I don't know how to explain it. Like when it comes to writing on a deep fundamental level, I don't have that much doubt because I have so much of a sense of like, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. So I don't always know that I'm actually gonna create the best thing, but I just know that the process of trying to create it... You know how to do that.

You're a pro.

Well, I don't even know if I know how to do it. I just know that trying to do it is like, that's like the great gift of my life. Just working. You know, there's always like your vision of the shining, amazing thing that you're actually gonna create and you know you're never gonna actually reach that vision. Or reach that goal, but just the act of trying to reach it to me is the ultimate state. So I wrote Bittersweet. It took me all these years once again. And yeah, I have moments where I'm tearing my hair out over how the heck do I structure this chapter? I have no idea what to do. But then there's some deeper level where I feel like, well, just the act of tearing my hair out over this is the right pathway.

It's worth it. Yeah. I remember when I had Liz Gilbert on. I'm not sure if you're close with.

Her as well, but I know, yes, she's great. She's great.

I remember having her on and she mentioned how she had this massive hit, Eat, Pray, Love. And then she was like, what do you do now, knowing that probably your best work or your most successful work is behind you, right? It's kind of like, did you have this sense after Quiet of, okay, this eight-year run of New York Times bestseller list, What, 10 people in the world have done that? I don't know, for that long. Did you have this thought of like, how could I make the next thing as good, or am I going to be as good as my previous work, or are people gonna care as much?

Well, I will say, so Liz Gilbert gave the most beautiful TED Talk on that exact topic. Did you ever see that one?

It's incredible.

I watched that TED Talk like a million times before I ever gave mine, because to me it was just Amazing. So yeah, so I thought about that a lot as I was writing the second book. And I don't know, it's kind of a mix. So yeah, there's a feeling of like all of that fear. But there's also something that you and I talked about earlier about the feeling of like, well, if you connect with one person, that's the goal. And so I felt like, well, okay, you want to be spending all your time, you want to be connecting with as many people as you possibly can, but I also think there's something about just one intense one-on-one connection that is worth it.

Absolutely.

So that's what I focus on. And so now I have new letters coming in from people who have read Bittersweet and they'll talk about it. those to me are the mind blowing moments.

Right, yeah. It's tough because so many of us want to have these accomplishments or you want to reach the same thing that you did in a previous thing. But what I'm hearing you say is focusing more on the processes where you really get the joy and focusing on however many people consume it or engage with it and supporting them is really where the joy comes from.

Yeah, I feel like there's a kind of magic in it. Like, the reason I wanted to be a writer in the first place is because the feeling I would get reading a book of like the intense connection with the author. And the author might not even be alive anymore at the moment you're having that connection. And yet you're having it across the centuries. So that's what I'm in it for, you know, is trying to have those moments.

That's cool. I feel like, There isn't much wholeness in the world. I mean, there's so much addiction to outside things to try to create wholeness. Social media addiction, substances, whether it's alcohol or vaping or cigarettes or drugs to sex addictions to whatever it might be out there. Where do you think the emptiness is coming from? And why are so many people seeking wholeness and outside distractions.

I mean, there's a lot of reasons for that, but I think our culture, we've been in trouble for a while because we, and I say a while, I'm like, I'm actually dating this all the way back to the 19th century. Like, I talk about this in the book. Since then, we started asking ourselves the question of, like, when something goes badly or well for someone? Is that because of outside forces of good luck or bad luck or is it about something inside the person? And the answer is probably really a mix of both. But increasingly we started answering that question by saying it's all about you. You're totally determining everything. And from there we started categorizing people into born winners or born losers. Mm-. And I think we may not admit it, but that's really how we think about ourselves and each other.

Why do we categorize as born winners and losers?

Why?

Because... I mean, based on like, you have a chapter about this in the book about winners and losers. Is it about like, your parents have a certain amount, so you're going to be a winner or where you were born, or what type of winner and.

Loser do you mean by that? Oh, I mean, like, are you gonna be like a winner at the game of life, you know, and a different, cultural moments, we define that differently. You know, nowadays that looks like, you know, are you successful at work? Are you attractive? Are you fit? Are you all these things? And not only are you all those things, but do you achieve all those things very effortlessly?

Right.

And the more we are looking at ourselves and each other that way, the more we feel like we have to present the emotions of a winner. So we have to always seem happy and everything's easy for us. Nothing's too vulnerable.

Nothing bothers me.

Nothing bothers me, yeah. You know, like the emotions that I talk about of sorrow and longing, which I actually believe are some of the most powerful emotions that connect us with each other and that connect us kind of with the heavens and, you know, with transcendence and with creativity. We don't allow ourselves to go there because to express sorrow and longing is to put yourself kind of on the loser side of the emotional ledger. And so we can't be whole because we don't allow ourselves to talk about pain even though that's part of life. Like it should be no big deal. It should be no big deal because of course everybody has it. Of course everyone has these emotions. But we're afraid of how we'll be seen.

Why do you think people are afraid to cry in front of others? to be vulnerable, to say things that they're ashamed of, to say things that they're not proud of, why do you think that is?

I think people are afraid of falling in status, you know, like falling in, losing their status in the eyes of others, you know, that you'll topple a few ranks down on the social hierarchy if you admit to those things. Even though, you know.

That's what also connects us to people, too.

That's what connects us. That's the thing. that is what connects us. I mean, there's a reason that all our religions talk about suffering, what to do with the problem of suffering. And all our religions talk about the longing for a world that's more perfect and beautiful than this one. You know, like the longing for Eden, the longing for Mecca, the longing for Zion. It's because we all come into this world with a sense of incompleteness and the desire to articulate that and to reach a little closer for a place of real love and beauty. But we only allow ourselves to express that through, let's say, religion or through a few different pieces of art, let's say. We don't allow it in everyday chit-chat, even though that's what connects us.

Yeah, it's interesting because up until I turned 30, I would say I lived in a world where I had to put on a certain mask, right? I had to project a strength, a confidence, knowing I have the answers, whatever it might be. I had to project a lack of weakness is what I felt like I needed to do in order to belong, fit in, be accepted, and be loved. And then I realized that was the thing that was holding me back from deepest levels of connection, intimacy, love, and the full range of emotions, I would say in a conscious way. And when I started to peel back the masks and be vulnerable in certain settings and seasons of life, I was able to release a lot of pain, released a lot of shame, released a lot of things that were holding me back to feel loved like I'd never felt before. And it's a work in progress over the last decade of figuring that out and unlearning, but it's been a beautiful journey. And I find that vulnerability brings me so much deeper connection to people. And I think you gotta do it at the right time and season.

Yeah, sure.

You know, it's not just like an every moment, you know, regurgitating a vulnerability. There's incredible power to vulnerability and able to connect with people when you reveal yourself. And I think when you do that, you can create incredible things together as opposed to just coming from a surface level.

Right, right. And you don't feel like you lost strength or power from doing that or do you have moments of it?

I feel like I Let go of relationships that maybe weren't in alignment to the vision I had now moving forward. And I've built a stronger, deeper community of people that are willing to go to the same place. And that's been a really cool thing.

Yeah. You said an important thing as you were talking about that, which is, you know, you can't like be doing this all the time. And I do think it's important to say that, right? And there's even data showing that, you know, in certain circumstances, like, if you're, let's say, the boss, the person who's under you may not actually want you to be telling them everything that you might be going through. It might make them really uncomfortable. And they might start to view you as a little bit less capable. So that's just one of those unfortunate realities. That are also important to kind of lay out there. We need to get to a place where those realities live side by side with being able to show up with all our different emotions.

Yeah, and it's also, you don't have chronic vulnerability where it's like all day long you're coming from a sad, vulnerable, hurt place. It's like at some point you have to get into a different emotion, right? And have some courage and have some joy and express play and beauty and wonder and awe and love and connection. And maybe there's vulnerability in that and maybe there's not, but staying in kind of chronic sadness will keep you from a lot of the joys of life. Yeah, I mean, we actually found, so.

In the book, I developed this bittersweet quiz that you can take to figure out, like, how prone you are to these states of bittersweetness. And I developed the quiz along with Scott Barry Kaufman, who I know is also a friend of yours. He's incredible. He's so great. And David Yaden, a psychologist at Johns Hopkins. And so we ran all these different correlations to figure out if you tend to be prone to this bittersweet kind of acceptance of joy and sorrow, what else goes along with that? And what we found, to your point, is that people who are high in bittersweetness are also high in states of awe and wonder and spirituality.

When you have sadness and joy.

Yeah.

When you can access both.

When you can access both, because what it's really saying, if you can access both, is that you're kind of open and receptive to everything that the world brings. And you're open and receptive to yourself and to all your different emotional states, as opposed to only being in sadness, which is probably, there's probably something about joy that you're afraid of or something like that. Or if you're only willing to go to a state of cheerfulness, it's probably because you're afraid of where sadness can take you.

It's interesting, I had two, interviews recently, one where I was on someone else's show and then someone who came on here and both the individuals said that they hadn't cried in over a decade. Wow. And they said this in the interview and they both said, I acknowledge it's something I want to work on.

Right?

It's something, I know there's something there.

Yeah.

And I want to figure out what it is. But if someone, and they're two Great people, inspiring, you know, kind people.

Yeah.

But both very driven, right? Driven for growth, business results, right? Where do you think that might come from if someone hasn't tapped into it yet or blocks the ability to feel the emotion of sadness, crying, tears, sorrow?

I mean, of course it's different for everyone, but I think for a lot of people there is There's a fear of like, if I go to that place, I might never be able to come out again.

Really?

Yeah. I hear that from a lot of people. You know, I'll be like, I'll be stuck there.

Be sad forever.

Yeah, yeah. And of course it doesn't have to be that way at all, but I think there is a fear that many people have. Or just like, yeah, like just not wanting to look at it.

Why do you think it's so scary to look at sadness for some people?

Well, I mean, sadness doesn't feel good, right? It just by its nature. I mean, I don't think it feels good either. So it's scary to look at anything that's painful or it can be scary. I mean, it's different for different people. I actually find it scarier or let's say more difficult to not talk about things that are so plainly true and right in front of us, to me that would be the hard thing.

Yeah, to just stuff it or to sweep it under the rug.

Yeah, yeah. And not acknowledge it. It's right over there, so how can you not talk about it?

The elephant is right here.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

If someone listening or watching hasn't been able to tap into that emotion, what do you think is a strategy or something they could do to start practicing getting there and feeling safe to go to those places without thinking they're going to be trapped there.

Yeah, it's a really good question. So I would start by looking for expressions of it that feel not so threatening to you, you know, and that might be music.

A sad song or.

Yeah. Which is actually how I got into this whole topic in the first place, because I have this crazy intense reaction to sad music of feeling not actually sad when I hear it, but more like completely connected to humanity because it feels like the music is expressing something that all humans express. And then turning it into something beautiful, which is something humans have the capacity to do. You know, we take something, we look at something painful and we want to turn in the direction of meaning. You know, like after 9/11, suddenly all these people are signing up to be firefighters. And after the pandemic, they're signing up for medical school. Like, why do we do that? We do that because we look at something painful and there is this human impulse to transform it into meaning. So the strategy for people you're talking about would be to find expressions of human sorrow that also feel meaningful and uplifting. And they're there everywhere, you know, whether it's in in music or art or religion. I think sports is also another great one.

Absolutely.

You know, like it's been really interesting, right? How since around, what, the 1970s or '80s, suddenly sports coverage became not only about studying the mechanics of the game and who won and who lost, but suddenly we're telling emotional stories about all the players.

Their childhood, their parents, or... Yeah, yeah.

The pain they had to overcome to get to where they are. All of it. So I think for everybody there are different portals or gateways that they can kind of go through to get to this state of a kind of elevated connection with other people through accepting it all.

What is the thing that you think all people want the most, but they're also the most afraid of?

Love. Yeah, I think that's what Everyone really wants the most. Like they want a kind of perfect and unconditional love.

Why are they afraid of love?

Because they're afraid that they're not gonna get the true love that they long for. You know, like you described it, right? Like six months, you got a great six months, you got a great run. And then you hit that wall. Yes. And probably that wall would come with a huge sense of like a crushing disappointment, right? like I had love and now I don't.

Now it's gone and how do I get back to it?

Yeah, yeah.

There's always like, how do I get back to that?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think that's what people are fundamentally longing for.

How can people get to a place of fully loving themselves and feeling whole so that they have that unconditional love with themselves all the time and they don't need to seek it in someone else or something else?

Right, right. One of the important things that I think most people need to do is internalize their parent. Like the parent, you can pick your mother or father, whoever it was who most represented, like a deep love to you. Or if you didn't have such a parent, it doesn't have to be even someone you know. You know, it could be like the Virgin Mary. It could be like a representation of love. and to really internalize that being, that essence as part of you and carry it with you where you go and be able to speak to yourself in the words of that nurturant parent figure, especially when you need it most. And ultimately, you'll need it less and less because it'll just become absorbed into you. But I think really to be, like to literally be able to speak to yourself the way a parent would speak to a kid who needs encouragement. You know, like literally say the words. And like if your parent figure spoke to you or you wish they had spoken to you with specific terms of endearment, use those terms of endearment for yourself. You know, no one has to hear you do it, but do it in your mind or write it down. Speak to yourself that way until it becomes part of you.

How long does it take for someone to get whole?

I think it depends where they're starting from, you know, and we're all on the journey to some degree forever.

Is there a process if someone's saying, I feel like I'm a half a person, or I feel like I'm a fracture of who I should be? What would you say is the process or the method they could take to start rebuilding, reshaping their identity or worth to where they feel, oh, I'm a whole person, and I can feel a wide range of emotions, and that's okay.

Yeah, I'd say little by little by little, like just the way we were saying with the public speaking, you know, to just take it like one step every single day, you know, whatever it is. And it's hard to speak in generalities because everyone's lack of wholeness looks very different. But, you know, like if your thing is a fear, you know, take one little step in the direction of, like, overcoming that fear.

Yeah.

You know, or if your thing is not being able to open up to people, let's say, because you're afraid of what might happen. If you really open up, take one little step every day, have a little bit more openness.

I like that. It's interesting. When I started opening up about sexual trauma as a child, I remember I did it in a workshop first to a group of people that I didn't really know. It was the scariest thing I'd ever done, but I was also like, okay, I may never see these people again. So who cares, right? It took a lot of courage to do, and it was after two weekends with this group of people. But afterwards I remember saying, oh shoot, okay, how do I tell this to my family or my best friends? They may disown me, or they may judge me, or who knows, and that's a scary thing to open up and say how I feel. I remember talking to a therapist friend at the time. I said, what do I do in this situation? She said, Go to the person you feel like will receive this the most first. You feel like it's the most open. Don't say this to the person who's gonna be resistant to hearing it first. Say this to the person you feel most open to baby steps, just like you were talking about. And ask each family member, ask them this question first to see if it's appropriate to tell them. ask them, is there anything that I could ever do or say that would make me not love you? Or that would make you not love me? There's anything I could ever do or say that would make you not love me? And asking that first and see how they respond. And so I started asking my family members one by one this question. I said, Hey, I've got something I want to share, but is there anything... But I'm kind of nervous. I'm nervous to share with you. I feel really raw right now. and I want to know is there anything that I could ever do or say in my life that would make you not love me? And each one of them were like absolutely not, there's nothing, right? So then it gave me permission one by one to build that courage to feel like I'm healing that relationship with myself and with them by revealing it. So I think that approach had worked for me so I think that's a good approach.

Yeah, and then you got to the point where you shared it with the public and you couldn't say to the public is there anything that I could do that would make you not love me? It must be that by that point, you loved yourself enough that you didn't need to ask that question.

I loved myself enough and I knew that I had my friends and family there. Even if the world hated me or thought I was a loser or something, I was like, okay, well at least I've got my friends and family. And I was like, I need to do this because if it could help one person heal, it would be worth it. Even if I lose everything in my business, it would be worth it. And I also thought myself, I have a responsibility because the more I started to study this, the more I realized that men everywhere were suffering. One in six men had been sexually abused. That's the statistic in America, one in six men. It's one in four for women, which is obviously more, but women in general have a place to share and have a place to have support to talk about it, whereas I didn't know any man who had talked about it. And so men were just suffering and then using anger as their way to share and express themselves. I was thinking if men could have a place to share this pain without anger or through anger in a healthy way, then men could heal and relationships could heal in the world as well. And I was like, if I don't do that, then I know I have the ability to potentially help someone and I'm not doing it because I'm scared.

Right.

Then it was like this nagging thing for six months. It was like, you got to do this.

And so after six months, you kind.

Of like-- After six months, then I.

Went over the cliff.

I remember I recorded the session. I called Jonathan Fields. I said, Jonathan, and I called Glennon Doyle, and I asked her for some advice as well on this. I called Jonathan, I said, Listen, I'm thinking about doing this, and will you interview me, or will you guide me? talking about it on my show so that I can get it out there because he's very spiritual grounded human being. I was like, can you just create a safe space for me to talk about it and ask me questions and guide me? Because I was like, I don't know how to do this on my own. So I reached out to him. He helped me. And then I reached out to Glenn and then I waited another three months after I recorded it because I was just, should I put this out there? Glenn and Doyle helped me, like, write the article and the whole thing. to put it out there because I didn't want it to go out in a way that was anything but in service.

Right, right.

I was like, I didn't want people to think it was some ulterior motive. I was just like, here's what I'm doing. I want to help men and create a space. But I like your approach, your method of, like, baby steps until you feel more whole and love yourself more and feel comfortable before you take the bigger steps.

Yeah, it's little by little by little. That really is how we change with everything.

Right.

Yeah, and to know, I mean, there's a psychologist at Stanford, her name is Laura Carstensen, and she's done all this research showing that when people are more in touch with life's fragility, like they've accepted it, that all these other things come with that state. They become less angry, they have more gratitude, they start focusing on meaningful relationships and activities of meaning. And she first saw this in older people because when you get to be, you know, 70s or 80s, you like know that life is fragile. You know you only have a few years left at that point. But then she started noticing that she was finding this also with younger people who had had life circumstances that had made them have to face fragility. So I think like just knowing that You know, there's so much research out there. It's like all our wisdom traditions, they all tell us that going down this path takes you to a place of more meaning and more acceptance. And you kind of just have to trust that.

There's a, I think the country of Bhutan, I don't know if you've heard of this, but they think about their death five times a day. They reflect on it for a moment five times throughout the day. and I'm sure there's different countries and religions that do this.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think it's really powerful if you create different moments in your day. I think someone has a tattoo that says like, you know, you're gonna die. And it's like just looking down at your wrist or looking at a reminder, an alarm come up five times a day that's like, this will all end.

Yeah.

Allows you to focus on perspective, allows you to feel deeper, allows you to have urgency in your life allows you to say the things you need to say and not hold back all these different things.

Yeah, I actually started doing that. Yeah, 'cause I was writing about that practice while I was working on Bittersweet. And I thought, okay, you know, and I read about all these people doing it, like the Stoics would do it. Or like these grand generals in ancient Greece, they would win a battle and they would be like marching victoriously through the amphitheater and they would have a guy going along with them at the back of their horse saying, you,'re gonna die, you're gonna die, so that they would never lose sight of that. So I was like, okay, what would this mean if I tried this? And it led to so many just differences in how I spent my time. I noticed at the time I was doing it, my kids were pretty little and we had this bedtime ritual, and I was also really busy at that time. So truthfully, even though I loved the bedtime ritual, It was really hard for me not to be checking my phone. It would be like, you know, one of my sons would like look away for a minute and I'd be like, okay, did I get an email? But then I started doing this practice and it completely changed it. Like I would literally say to myself, you know, you might not be here tomorrow, he might not be here tomorrow, we have no idea. And I didn't feel freaked out or anything. It didn't make me anxious. It was more just like a reminder.

Absolutely.

And then I just started leaving the phone in another room and it wasn't like an act of willpower. It was like my perspective just totally shifted.

Yeah, I think Marcus, there's a story about Marcus Aurelius that he would bring someone with him to walk through the town because everyone was praising him. And they brought someone with him to say that you're just a man, whispering in his ear constantly to remind him of not to get too high. on yourself and think you're like this godlike because you can die just like everyone here.

Right, right.

It's interesting, right before you came in, I was talking to some of the team and I was saying, you know, a couple of years ago I looked up a stat. I was just like, I'm curious how many people die every day in the world. It's about 150,000 people die every day on average. 150 to 180,000 on average in the world that they calculate. Might be a little more, a little less, but I was like, 150,000 people died today and we're not one of them. That's a blessing. That's the ultimate gift. We're still here today. 150,000 people, that's two football stadiums that didn't wake up. And we did. And so there's perspective there and it's finding those moments, whether it's five times a day reminding yourself you're gonna die or just every day waking up and realizing you're not one of the 150,000 people that didn't wake up. Something to create that perspective, I think will also create more sweetness in our life. You know, when there's, because like you said, there's going to be, you started writing this before the pandemic.

I did.

But there's going to be pain, loss, sadness, heartache, suffering, no matter what in life. There's going to be challenge. There's seasons of beautiful joy and everything's working out and other seasons where bam, everything hits you at the same time it seems like. And so when those moments happen, which they will for all of us, it sounds to me like we don't want to suppress our emotions. We want to have, we also don't want to go down a dark hole of sadness for forever, but we want to be able to experience the full range of emotions in a healthy way is what I'm hearing you flip side.

Yeah, and you know, the flip side of what you just said is it's also the case that when we're going through times that do feel like they're like tilted towards the dark, there's also always joy there. Like that's the thing. Like if you're really in touch with Joy and Sorrow at all times, like we were talking before about how I dedicated the book to Leonard Cohen and the epigraph is the line from his song Anthem that there's a crack in everything. that's where the light gets in. So to be able to remember that also, you know, even at the darkest times, there's always that light coming through and it's always available to us.

Yeah. So, I think there's, you know, what's the Japanese art?

Oh, wabi-sabi, is that what it's called?

Like when something breaks and they put it back together with gold.

Oh, that's kintsugi. Kintsugi. Yeah, I don't know if I'm pronouncing it correctly. Yeah. But yeah.

Or something, yeah, where it's like, okay, here's something that broke. There's a lot of sadness. Let's actually make it more beautiful.

The cracks by filling in the cracks.

Exactly, exactly. With gold or whatever they do, this paint, it was actually, oh, it's actually.

Got this more beautiful character now. Yeah.

Because it's not perfect.

Right. There is fragility to it. Yeah, and that's what I would say to people who are afraid that if they go in that direction, they'll never be able to come out again. That's not actually what all these wisdom traditions teach. They teach the opposite. You know, that there's always a way to turn in the direction of beauty.

Yes. When I went to, I studied meditation different places, but when I went to India to study for a few weeks, they talked about, this place I went to talked about there's two states of being, a suffering state, or an energetic state of suffering, or a beautiful state, a state of beauty, which could be gratitude, joy, love, peace, all these different things, whereas suffering could be sadness, anger, resentment, fear, anxiety, suffering state. And they taught that the best way to get out of suffering and into a beautiful state is to stop thinking of self in terms of like, oh, why is this happening to me? And actually putting attention on service, giving, not on why am I not getting something that I want? Instead creating that in the world and giving and we're moving from suffering into a beautiful state by your action of giving and service. So it's something I think that when we are, I've been curled up in a ball many times in my bed, My early 20s and my teens, because I didn't know how to manage emotions. And I was always focused on me. Why is this happening to me? Why did I not get what I wanted? Why did this person hurt me? Why did, you know, why this to me? And I would just sit there and being sad. And I would go down a dark hole for many days sometimes. And it wasn't until I said, okay, this sucks, this is unfortunate, but how can I use this for good? That's when I was able to get out of it.

Yeah, I mean that's what your whole life has been and I bet you every single person who you've admired or used as role models for yourself and for others along the way, I bet you every single one of them that the narrative, the overarching narrative is that they took some kind of pain and turned it into something else. Absolutely. And that's like the ultimate goal. That's the ultimate goal. Like I say, like whatever pain you can't get rid of, make that your creative offering.

Give me an example.

Oh gosh, there's so many. Okay, so there's one story I tell in the book about Maya Angelou. So she had such a harrowing childhood, you know, like her, she and her brother were effectively abandoned by their parents who sent them off to live with relatives and she faced terrible racism and she was raped when she was eight years old. Terrible stuff and like it was so bad that she literally stopped talking for five years. She did not speak to anybody besides her brother. Five years, not a word. And then she and then when she's like 13 years old and she writes about this in her memoir, I Know why the Caged Bird Sings, when she's about 13 this woman takes her under her wing and starts reading to her from A Tale of Two Cities. And Angela recalls how the words sounded like music in the way that this woman said them. And there's also this amazing detail that she describes about the woman. She says she was this very lovely, elegantly turned out person, very gracious. She said she often smiled, but she never laughed. So it was kind of like this, allusion to the fact that the woman herself had been through whatever it was. And the woman succeeds in opening up the young Maya. And so she then starts putting forth her own, you know, memoirs and plays and poetry and everything that she did. And there's an amazing twist to the story, which is that 30 years later, there was this other little girl who grew up in a situation that was almost like uncannily like the young Maya's. and she reads Maya's memoir, Angela's memoir, and she says, oh my gosh, that's mean. And she can't believe that there's another person out there who's had her story and transformed it into something else. And that little girl who was reading that memoir was Oprah.

Wow, that's cool.

Yeah, and so that's just like one example, but I think there's almost no heroic figure that we admire where if you scratched the surface of your life, you wouldn't find some version of that same story. Like that's really the, we hear about the hero's journey. That's what the hero's journey really is.

Wow. Yeah, someone once said that in business, you're perfectly suited to serve the struggling person you once were and overcame.

Oh, wow. That's good.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, totally.

What do I need to do in a business? Well, where were you struggling five to 10 years ago that you overcame?

Right.

Help someone overcome that struggle. You're an expert in that thing.

Yeah.

Even if you can only help a few people, it's like get started doing the thing that you struggled with the most and overcame. Yeah. That's why you see people in the fitness industry, it's like, I lost 100 pounds. Let me show you how I, I suffered for 20 years with this and let me show you how to do this for other people. that we're suffering, right? It's like...

I'm glad you were using the business example because when I say like whatever pain you can't get rid of, make that your creative offering. I'm using that word creative like really broadly. It can mean anything. It just means like bringing something into being.

You could do painting, you could do whatever it might be.

Right, but it doesn't have to be that. It could be being a fitness instructor or whatever it is for you.

Yeah, I think that's what it is because there's a lot of people that, you know, struggle with being overweight or obese or something, and then they finally overcome the challenge and get in shape and get healthy.

Yeah.

And get back a life maybe they wanted or get their self-confidence back. And so that person is perfectly suited to serve other people that were in that situation they once were in.

Yes.

And to be a teacher.

Yeah.

And to give back and however they want to create that information. my Angel Lutz did it through a memoir and books and you could do this through a course or whatever it might be. We're teaching one to one or classes or anything like that. So I think that's what people can do, but I love that story. No one relates to the person that has not had some pain in their life. It's hard to relate to someone who's perfect.

Well, because we know it's not true. It's just there's no way that it's true. And so then you're not relating to a real person. That's what it really is. It's not only that they're too successful and therefore like on a whole other plane from us. It's also that like we sense that there's something not authentic about it. Yeah, yeah.

And what's the difference between perfect love and unconditional love?

Ah, well, I don't know the answer to that exactly. I think that we I think that perfect, call it perfect love, call it unconditional love, I think it's something that exists. It's a kind of like, we can get closer and closer and closer to that state that we yearn for. I don't think we get there fully in this lifetime. And that accepting that is actually part of what helps us to have great and enriching love relationships. But yeah, I talk about this a lot in the book, the longing for the state in which, the longing for that state of perfect union, perfect everything, perfect beauty, all of it. We're born to exist in that state of longing, and we know from all the wisdom traditions that to dive into that longing brings us ever closer to the thing that we're longing for, even if we don't ever fully, fully reach it. And I think the more we accept that the healthier our love relationships can be, because otherwise it can be like what you were describing, where you're like, you know, I just spent the first six months with someone and we were in the Garden of Eden, but somehow we got kicked out.

Now we're in hell.

Now we're in hell.

And how do we get back to Eden?

Yeah. Exactly.

Because you ate the apple. Ah, don't eat the apple.

Yeah, exactly. And you know, it might just be that you were with the wrong person.

Right, exactly.

But it can also be that like, it's not really our state in this world to exist in Eden forever. And if we expect that, then that can prevent us from having, from working, from building the healthy relationships that we're seeking.

And that's probably why when, We hear a song that is so perfect, or we see a piece of art that just looks almost perfect, or we see a perfect catch in a football game, and you're like, that's when we feel awe.

Exactly. Because you're like, oh, I just saw Eden. I just saw glimpses of perfection.

A moment of perfection.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Or you have this night with your partner where it's just like everything is beautiful and every synchronicities and the connection and intimacy You see, it's like this perfect night. You're like, ah, this awe. It is awe. It's the bittersweet. And then the next day you wake up and you're like, you smell her bad breath or something, right? You're like, oh, you know, it's like this bittersweet experience. Searching and yearning for the perfect, the.

Unconditional, but knowing there's only moments of it. Yeah, exactly. And to know that there are only moments of it is actually, it's incredibly empowering. It makes you love those moments when you have them. You know, and not like despair when you don't have them because that's the nature of existence.

Yes. Would you say that you unconditionally love yourself?

That's a good question. I think it depends on what you mean by it because I feel like there's a sense in which I do, but if you listened to the, like my inner dialogue sometimes, You know, I have the same issue that I think many people do of like, what do.

You say to yourself?

Oh gosh, I don't know. You know, like I just said a stupid thing or I didn't say the right thing or I should have done this or I should have done that. And it's hard for me to tell where that, where those voices come from. It doesn't really feel like it's me talking to me. It more feels like, It's like my perception of what some outer force would say, and then I'm grappling with it. Which is why I say underneath it, I kind of feel like I'm on my own side, and yet those voices are coming from somewhere. Does that make sense?

Yeah. I hear you there. How do you think it would take, what would it take for us as humans to stop judging ourselves, but also have humility and have constructive feedback in a healthy way for ourselves to improve and grow and expand. And not think we have it all figured out.

Right.

How do we get to that place where we're not internally judging, shaming, making wrong, doubting, but also looking to improve and looking to grow in a healthy way.

Right. Right.

So it's more unconditional love.

Yeah. So I don't think that there's anything about increasing our self-love that brings with it arrogance or disinterest and growth or anything like that. I think the fact that we tend to see those things as being connected is a huge misunderstanding.

I agree.

It's actually the opposite. I think the more you have true self-love, the more you would be quite humble and quite interested in growing. But there's a a technique and a practice that I think is really useful, a meta, I don't know if loving kindness meditation.

Okay.

I actually write about this. I studied it with Sharon Salzberg, who's one of our great meditation teachers. And it's basically this practice where you wish yourself and all the people in your life, including your easiest relationships and your most difficult relationships, and then you wish everyone on earth and you wish the guy at the gas pump, you wish everybody who you're passing, step by step by step, you're wishing everybody love, you're wishing them well-being, you're wishing them peace and freedom from suffering and all of it. And it is really transformative when you do it. It feels a little bit formulaic at the time, but I've noticed whenever I do it, then I go out into the world and I'm just much more likely to beam into that state of mind.

Yeah.

What is that?

Prayer or meditation or a mantra?

Is it a It's a meditation. Yeah, I'm actually putting a version of it up on my website for people who are curious. Like I have my own version of it that I've created.

You make your own version.

You can. I mean there's a traditional meta version.

How's it go?

Here we go. I'll give you, I always do my own stuff, but I'll tell you the traditional one. Okay, so the interesting thing is, so Sharon Salzberg who taught this to me, she first studied this in Burma and the phrases that she was given to repeat were, May I be free from danger? May I be free from mental suffering? May I be free from physical suffering? May I have ease of well-being? But what's interesting is she started teaching this in the States and all these people were coming up to her and saying, I don't really like using these negative words like danger and suffering and all that. So for Americans, she had to turn it around. Yeah, and she made it like, may I be safe, may I be happy, may I be healthy, may I live with ease.

Mm, that's cool.

You started out asking about self-love, and what's interesting is traditionally with this practice, you would start by wishing all these good things to yourself before you move on to others. But a lot of Americans have trouble with that. They feel uncomfortable wishing these things to themselves first.

Why is that?

There's something in us that makes us feel like it's selfish and wrong to be doing that. I think it's because of the way that we confuse self-love with arrogance. Even though the opposite is what's true.

What is the difference between self-love and arrogance?

Well, self-love is just wishing yourself well. Arrogance is thinking that you're better than other people. that you don't have to care so much about other people. It's holding them with a degree of contempt. Whereas this is much more a practice of acceptance of yourself and everyone around you.

It's very different. Yeah, and I think growing up, when I grew up in the 80s, especially in the Midwest and the sports culture, let's say it was all about winning, right? And you're praised for when you won. I wasn't praised for getting a third place trophy or a 10th place trophy. I guess like kids are now, it's like everyone's celebrated for whatever place, which I get the celebrating the participation, but it was more about, I wish it was more about the effort that people were celebrating, but back then it was like you either win or you're a loser if you're second. It doesn't matter how great your performance was, you lost. So everything was focused on doing whatever it took to win. And so my sophomore year in college, I broke the world record for the most receiving yards in a single game. So no one in the history of the world had ever done something that I did. 418 receiving yards in one game. It was more than in any college football game, professional game, high school, and we lost the game. We lost by like a few points at the end. And I was the last one out of the locker room beating myself up. focused on what I could have done better. I didn't even know that actually broke the record until after I got out of the shower. I remember my coach coming in. I was the last one to get out of the shower and he told me this and he was kind of like congratulating me but we also just lost so it was hard to celebrate and I was like so confused because I was like, man, my effort was so good. It wasn't good enough to win but I wasn't even willing to celebrate the effort at that time because I so focused on like you either win or you're a loser and you're not worthy of love.

Yeah. Right?

It's kind of like where my feelings were around. So I think it's hard to unwind that. I know and I totally get it.

I mean both of my sons play sports and I've seen that exact same thing. Like they'll come off the soccer field and- yeah, score three goals and you.

Lose but you're like, yeah, and I'll.

Be like, oh well, you know, I know you lost but like those goals were really great just so you know and they'll be like, Who cares? We lost the game.

But I don't know.

At the same time, I think that there's a way, I don't think it's wrong to want to win or to have things like sports where there's a winner and a loser. I think that's completely consistent with being able to say that the goal is unconditional self-love, even while you might be bummed that you lost the game. But I think we think those two things are inconsistent because we think, no, if you lost the game, it means you're a loser. as opposed to you're a human who sometimes wins and sometimes loses.

How do we reshape that thought process if we don't get the job we wanted, if we don't get the relationship we wanted, or the person says no to us and rejects us, or we get fired or whatever, we don't get the deal we want, we lose the game, how do we keep our identity whole? and loving and full and not tied to losing or failing at the external things.

It's that just something happened and maybe you did put in enough effort and it happened anyway. Maybe you didn't put in enough effort and you're going to put in more next time. But I think the real mind shift is that we see it as that when we're winning, when things are going well, That's the main road. And when we lose, that's like a detour off the main road. And now we feel like, oh my gosh, we're stuck in a detour in the hinterlands over here, as opposed to thinking, it's all the main road. It's all the main road. This is just part of what happens in life. And I'm gonna next time put in all the effort and all that stuff, but not see it as like this fundamentally unnatural state that casts us out. into the realm of losers. The use of the term loser has risen astronomically in recent decades, and that's what we've got to figure out how to get away from. You can lose without being a loser. That's really what I'm saying.

What is the superpower that an introvert has that an extrovert doesn't have?

There's a power in being able to spend time in solitude. I mean, like we know with creativity, for example, you can't really do great creative work without quite a bit of time spent alone. Like in our culture, we only focus on the part of creativity that's about exchanging ideas or going out on stage and sharing your ideas, and that's all good. But you also need the time alone, which for introverts comes much more easily.

Right.

And then like when it comes to leadership, there's a way in which introverts lead, where they're much more apt to be asking questions of the people around them and soliciting ideas and then taking the best of those ideas and running with them. Whereas for an extrovert, what comes more easily is inspiring and rousing the troops and all that, but they can be so dominant or just irrepressible that they're only getting their own ideas and they're not getting in as many inputs from others. So, yeah.

And what is the superpower to feeling sadness over joy?

Well, I would call it the superpower of feeling sadness and joy.

Both. Just one is not a superpower.

Right. Yeah. Just one. It's more that in our culture, we know joy is a superpower. Like, no one will doubt that one. What we need is to resurrect the power of sadness. And the power of it is Well, as we've said, that it's one of the most powerful ways that we have of connecting with each other to be able to really share and really open up. Humans are evolutionarily designed to do this. Like, if I see you or someone struggling, we all have a vagus nerve. It's the biggest bundle of nerves in our bodies, and it activates when we see somebody else suffering.

We want to help them.

We want to help them.

Reach out. We want to connect.

We want to lend a hand. Yeah, and this is part of who we are evolutionarily, because we were designed to be able to care for vulnerable infants, and then we came up with this capacity to do that in general. So the power to connect, the power to be creative, creativity in its essence for most people, it's like it's trying to turn pain into something else, or it's trying to get closer to that perfect world. that you were talking about, like when you see the perfect jump shot or whatever it is, you're like trying to get closer so you build something new. And it's connected to transcendence and to wonder and awe, all of it.

How does an introvert let go of the need that people please and get back to a place of saying, creating boundaries and saying no so that they can actually stay charged throughout the day as opposed to lose their charge?

So I'll tell you like the mind shift and then I'll tell you like the concrete practice. The mind shift is you have to feel entitled to be who you are. I cannot tell you how many letters I get from people who are like, it's really amazing. They're like, you know, as soon as I started feeling like I was not just okay but powerful in who I was, the more successful I became in the outward facing world, you know, like at a job interview. or something, because you're starting to show up as yourself instead of showing up trying to be somebody else. And in terms of the concrete tip there, introverts desperately need to be scheduling in recharge time where they get to be alone. For some people, it's taking a nap, or for somebody else, it's taking a walk, like whatever it is. You should be putting that into your calendar as many times a day as you need it. and honoring that commitment just as fiercely as you would a commitment to a client or colleagues or whomever. And if you have trouble doing that because you feel guilty about it, just remind yourself that you're gonna be so much more present for everyone else if you've taken that time for yourself.

How does social media play in with introverts? If you're experiencing all these micro doses of interactions with people, but you're not physically around them.

Yeah.

Does that drain you just as much if you're on your screen interacting conversations all day, or does it not feel the same?

It goes both ways. It doesn't feel the same on the one hand, right? Because it's like this. It's still just this one source of inputs as opposed to, you know, a gazillion that you might feel at a party. But on the other hand, you know, as you said, social media is just like, it's really self-presentation media, and I think that's draining to the soul for everybody.

It's learning to manage that.

Yeah.

What else do we need to know about bittersweet that we can take with us today?

Gosh, I would say. So I spent all these years studying all these. what all these traditions have to say about this. And the one thing that they all have in common is the idea that when we're faced with a pain, there's kind of two roads, you know, and one road is to leave the pain unattended to you in one way or another, and then you end up taking it out on yourself and it shows up as depression or it shows up as severe anxiety or, Or you're taking it out on somebody else and it shows up as abuse or passive aggression or addiction or whatever it is. And then the other road is to take a pain and, as we said, to try to turn it into something else. Not to minimize what it is, but to turn in the direction of meaning. That's what we were born to do.

I love this. I'm excited about this. I want people to get a copy, Bittersweet: How Sorrow and Longing Make us whole. I think in a world where a lot of us feel empty, this is exactly what we need to start diving into to feel more whole and to create the practice of loving yourself with the full range of emotions. Not stuffing, not masking, not hiding, and not staying trapped in one emotion as well. So you feel like you can't get out of it. So I want people to get the book and also check out Quiet for all the introverts in the world. that's gonna be your, you know, essentially your introvert's Bible, right? It's like, it's the go-to on how to know that you're not alone and how to know that there's a lot of power within being an introvert and having quiet. Like you said, I get my best ideas when I'm alone, you know, when I'm not with other people.

Oh, that's interesting. So even for you, you do too.

It's like when I'm on a run or on a walk or when I'm on the drive and I don't have music on.

Right?

When it's like when I'm in silence, I might be in motion.

Right. But motion helps for everything.

Yeah, but I'm in silence. I'm not listening to anything, you know? And I'm listening to the inner voice.

Yeah.

That's when all the things are connecting in the brain and like the dots are coming, oh, this idea comes when that happens. So, I actually want, I call it strategic messing around time. scheduling in time to just play, just to do nothing, to play, throw a frisbee, just whatever it might be, or to go for a walk, giving myself that time is where I get some of my best ideas. Because if I'm always productive and doing, doing, doing, that I'm not being and I'm not listening.

And you're not generating.

Yeah, I'm not generating from the place of a space, right? It's like when you're always creating, it's hard to come up with the next beautiful idea.

I love that. You know, the amazing psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, he did this study of creativity, and he found that extroverted teenagers who had a lot of creative talent in one domain or another, that they sometimes wouldn't realize all their talent because part of the process requires solitude. And for the teens who just disliked solitude so much, they didn't have the space that they needed to develop. Yeah. So I worry about that sometimes with our schools because everything is now so group focused in schools.

It's all collaboration group focused, right?

All collaboration group focused, which like that's hard on the introverts in one way, but I worry about the extroverted kids who aren't ever getting the training that they need to realize that they can actually thrive in solitude. too.

It's interesting because I was so afraid to be alone in growing up and I needed to be around people. And because it was early growing up, I didn't have friends and so I felt worthless and a loser because no one would be friends with me. And then when I had friends, I didn't want to lose the friends. So I was like, let me spare. What are you guys doing? Let's do a play. Let's do this. Right? I always want to be around people. When I got into my 20s, I remember thinking to myself, I don't like the way this feels. Needing to always be around people to feel like I'm good enough.

Yeah, because of the word needing in that sentence.

Yeah, it was like it needed in order to feel loved or accepted. I was like, I really don't accept myself yet fully if I'm needing other people to accept me to feel good. And so I gave myself a challenge for a couple of years. Where I was like, I'm gonna go out with myself alone a few times a week. I'm gonna go to lunch or dinner. I'm gonna go to movies alone, which I would have never gone to the movie alone. Never would have gone to a lunch by myself. Would have felt too intimidated or too like, like I'm a loser just sitting here alone. And I did this for a few years and I got so, in a weird way, I fell in love with myself for the first time by just appreciating my own company. sitting there and just enjoying lunch and just being able to observe people and say hi to people, but just being able to be there, go to a movie by myself, have some popcorn alone and just laugh or be a part of the movie experience alone.

Yeah.

And it was one of the greatest gifts I gave myself because I no longer needed to spend time with people just to be around them. I could appreciate my alone time. And I really value that now, whereas before I didn't, because I couldn't accept myself.

Yeah, I know it sounds like an aspect of self-love for you. Yeah, yeah.

What's it called when you're in between extraverted and introverted?

Oh yeah, that's a good question. It's called an ambivert.

Ambivert, yeah. Because I love being around people, but.

I also love my alone time.

Right, right. Like I want to go hang out with friends and do activities, but then.

I'm like, I just want to be alone for like a half day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Susan, I'm so grateful that you decided to put this book out. And I really want to acknowledge you for your mission to serve people, using your gift, using your talent to create a beautiful piece of art to share with others on how they can understand themselves better, how they can heal, how they can grow, how they can connect with others. These last couple books are really inspiring and impacting a lot of people. So I'm grateful for your knowledge. I'm grateful for your lessons, the challenges you face in your life to make this from that space so that others can understand their lives. It's really cool what you've created and I hope this continues to do well for you with Bittersweet because a lot of people feel empty and this can help them feel whole. So, I'm really grateful for you.

Well, thank you so, so much, Louis. It's such a joy and an honor to be here with you. I really appreciate it.

I'm really grateful. I've got a couple final questions.

Oh sure.

But I want to make sure people get the book. I want them to go to susancain.net and take your quiz. You've got a quiz on there, you've got a newsletter on there, you've got a course. What's the course about?

It's actually a bittersweet course. And what's cool about it is that it's done through texts that we send to your phone, either through your SMS or through WhatsApp. Nice. And so it's like every morning you wake up and there's an audio message from me, or a written message, or all different things. Yeah, so it's just like little bursts that you wake up to every morning.

What's it gonna help people with when they go through the course?

It's a way of learning to live life with joy and sorrow and then to come out in a more whole way at the end of it.

So if we go to susankaine.net, they can get all the information there.

That's right.

The book, make sure you guys get a few copies. This is a question I asked everyone towards the end. It's a hypothetical question. question called the Three Truths. So imagine you get to live as long as you want to live, but it's your last day. You get to accomplish everything you want to accomplish, experience all the sorrows and joys of life, the awe, the beautiful art, music, all these things. But for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your work with you to the next place. So no one has access to your books. This interview is gone. It's a hypothetical scenario. Wow.

Okay.

Every interview you've ever had has on every article, everything, for whatever reason, it goes somewhere else. But you get to leave behind three lessons that you've learned. Three truths that you would share with the world, and this is all we have of your message.

Wow.

What would you say would be those three truths for you?

Okay. So I guess one of them is the one that I already said before, but it's the true answer to the question. It's the idea of whatever pain you can't get rid of, make that your offering, make that your creative offering. And then another one, and this comes from, this is an idea from Quiet. Well, actually this idea is really about both books, I would say. It's that I believe there are many different kinds of superpowers on offer in this world. You know, we know this from the movies, right? There's like lightsabers and there's wizards and wizards and there's, you know, people who climb up with spider feet or whatever they do.

Spiderman, yeah.

Spiderman, yeah, exactly. And each of us is given different kinds of superpowers. Like, you know, you only get the lightsaber, you only get the wizard's hat, you don't get them all. So a lot of the key to life is figuring out what are the superpowers that you have been granted and using those and using them well.

Amen to that.

Yeah, and not thinking, well, I have to have some another superpower. Like, what's yours?

I like that.

What's yours?

Okay, that's number two.

That's number two. And the third one, okay, this is a little bit, this isn't like a pithy one sentence one, but I'm never good at the pith. Okay, so one of the lessons that I learned from doing all the bittersweet research, it comes from the Kabbalah, which is the mystical side of Judaism, and it's this parable. The parable basically says that all of creation originally was one intact divine vessel of light, but then the vessel shattered, and the world we're living in now is the world after the breakage. But the shards of that vessel are scattered everywhere around us still. And so what we can do in this broken world is everybody's going to notice different shards of light. And what we can do is bend down and pick them up whenever we notice them. And I love this because to me, this is like the answer of how to live in a world that contains so much tragedy and evil over here and then so much joy and love and beauty over there. And it can be overwhelming to think, how do I live with both of those? and I feel like this parable is giving us the answer. It's like, okay, don't expect it to be perfect. It's never gonna be utopia, but always you have the power to be bending down and picking up the light. Always.

Yeah, that's beautiful. That's a great three truths. Final question.

Okay.

What's your definition of greatness?

Oh gosh, I don't know the answer that just came into my head is love. like self-love and love of others. That's what I would say.

Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of the this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.