Unlock the Language of CONNECTION: 3 HACKS for Supercommunicators to Build TRUST & INFLUENCE

Welcome to this special masterclass. We've brought some of the top experts in the world to help you unlock the power of your life through this specific theme today. It's going to be powerful, so let's go ahead and dive in. Not everyone's going to understand you, but I think when you have relationships where people do understand you or see where you're coming from, it makes you feel safer with them. Yeah.

Evolution has developed a reward sensation from feeling understood and feeling connected because that's what helped our species survive, right? The early ancestors who said, I want to take care of my young because I feel a bond to them, or I want to pair off with this community and invest in this community, they're the ones who made it. And so we have this inborn need and desire and sense of reward when we feel understood. That being said, if I'm saying something, even if you're listening closely, I might not pick up on it unless you tell me.

Repeat it back in your words and say, Did I get this right?

Yeah, and that's kind of formal. It can be more casual like it is with Matt, which is to say, I hear what you're saying. That's so interesting. It reminds me of this thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

To show that I'm hearing you, which you're very good at. I've watched the show a number of times. You do this almost automatically.

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. well, it's also like, you know, we were talking off camera a little bit about how if you, I mean, I speak for myself, I grew up feeling like I didn't have any friends, right? That was the feeling, whether that was 100% true or if it was the story I was telling myself, it just felt like I didn't have friends for a long time until I was like 14 and I started to get more athletically, like, confident and have like skills and, you know, add value to teams. Like, then I started to feel like I had friends. It was almost like because I didn't have this, I wanted to find any way for her to feel like, okay, what's it going to take for this person to connect with me?

Yeah.

Oh, I heard that they're having a bad day. Let me check and ask them what's going on and how can I help them? Oh, this is what you're going through. And then you see, oh, someone's listening to me. So I became really good at listening.

That's interesting.

Because I didn't have a lot of friends. And so I would just ask people questions. I also never felt confident Being like the center of attention and having all the funny stories or like knowing what to say or knowing anything to say because I didn't feel like I was intelligent. So I would ask questions because that was the easiest way to build relationship. Right. Not by having all the answers, but having the right questions build the deepest relationships for me. Not by being the smartest, funniest, best looking or whatever. But by being interested in other people made me more interesting to them. And just being an attentive listener. Like you said, this goes into looping for understanding. I didn't know this was a thing. I was just like, oh, it's working. Let me ask more questions. Let me get deeper. The deeper I would ask the question, I really rarely ever ask service level questions. if it is, it's like I quickly go deep just because I can't stay there. It just doesn't feel right. So the deeper I go into more questions, people feel like, wow, no one's really asked me these things. Right? They must care in a different way. Yeah. They must be curious about me. Wow, that feels good for someone to be interested in what I really think or feel about this situation. Yeah. And I did it out of like necessity, out of like, survival mechanism essentially as a kid, but it ended up being a superpower as an interviewer now.

And probably as a human, right?

Sure.

Yeah.

And by the way, the fact that you weren't good at it is something you have in common with most other people who are consistent super communicators. This is one of the reasons we know it's not an inborn characteristic, is because if you talk to people who are the best communicators and you say, Have you always been a great communicator? They'll tell you, no. As a kid, I felt lonely. I felt like I couldn't connect with people. I felt like I didn't have friends. Or my first job, they made me a manager and I completely bombed. The reason they become a super communicator consistently is because they've just thought a little bit harder about it. Usually because they have to, usually because they screwed up and they're like, I don't wanna screw up again. And it's just thinking a little bit more about how communication works that allows us to really connect with other people.

So how does communication really work? Are there different styles of conversations? Yeah.

So this is one of the big insights. And then I want to get back to questions because I think it's really important. One of the big insights from the last decade is that we tend to think of a discussion as being about one thing, right? We're talking about my book or we're talking about whether we should send the kids to this school or that school or where we should go on vacation. But if you look at the conversation that happens, the discussion, what you'll see is that there are multiple different kinds of conversations in that same discussion and that same dialogue. And most of them fall into one of three buckets. There's usually a practical conversation, which is a conversation where we're trying to figure out actually what we want to talk about and how to talk about it, but also maybe we want to fix a problem or make a plan. It's practical. It's using the the frontal cortex of our brain. There's a second kind of conversation, which is an emotional conversation. And if I come into you and I'm telling you about where I am emotionally and you suggest a solution to me, I'm gonna be like, People don't like that. You're a jerk, right? Because when you're having an emotional conversation, you want to share how you feel and hear how other people feel. You do not want to necessarily solve the problem.

This is where you hear all the, you know, the stereotypes of how men in married relationships struggle to relate or connect to their wives because they're more solution oriented, not everyone, but that's what you hear. The stereotypes are more trying to fix the problem of an emotional feeling that someone's having versus being comfortable sitting with the discomfort and just saying, I'm here for you.

Yeah, saying, I hear you.

Yeah, right. It's just, that's like solving the problem. That's exactly. If men understood that you just doing that is solving the problem and sitting in the uncomfort of that, but that's a hard skill to learn.

It's a hard skill to learn. It's a hard skill to learn. And then the third- so that's the second one, the emotional. That's the second one. So yeah, there's a practical, emotional, and the third one is a social conversation. And that's about how you and I see ourselves in respect to society, how we think society sees us, how we get along with other people, And so one of the things that we've found is that exactly what you just said, that what's known as the matching principle within psychology, that if I'm having an emotional conversation and you're having a practical conversation, they're both legitimate conversations, but we won't hear each other. Like, I'm gonna hear, I'm gonna say something emotional to you, you're gonna try and fix my problem in a practical way, and I'm gonna be like, A, you don't hear me, and B, I don't hear you.

Like, I'm not paying attention to your solution.

It's gonna create more miscommunication.

So how do you know which one you're in?

So through deep questions. And what super communicators do is they match the other person and they invite them to match back. And so how do we do that? These deep questions, which is exactly what you just said. A deep question is a question that asks me about my values, my beliefs, or my experiences. And as you mentioned, like a deep question might not seem deep. So if somebody says, what do you do for a living? Oh, I'm a lawyer. Oh, really? Do you love practicing the law? Did you always want to be a lawyer? What made you decide to go to law school? Those are easy questions to ask, but all three of them are deep questions.

Right.

'Cause what I'm asking you is I'm asking you, what are the experiences that led you to where you are today? What are your beliefs that motivate whether you, that motivate going into the law? What are the values that your work means to you? and when you answer that question, you're going to tell me so much about yourself. And then if I'm prepared for this, I can listen. Because if someone says, oh, you know, I went to law school because like it was really important to me to have a steady job and I knew lawyers. There's always work for lawyers. And so I, okay, so this person is in a practical mindset. And if somebody else says, oh, you know, I went to law school because I saw my dad get arrested and I wanted to fight for the underdog.

Wow.

That's emotional.

That's emotional, right?

Wow.

And so interesting. So just by, and by the way, by the way, the same person might answer that question both ways, depending on how they're feeling at that moment. But now I know, oh, I can match this person emotionally or I can match this person practically. And there's a kind of here, and you can sometimes just ask. In schools, they teach teachers that when a student comes up and they're upset, they should ask them, do you want to be heard? Do you want to be helped? Or do you want to be hugged? And those are the three kinds of conversations. And it just feels, yeah.

What do you need? It's essentially, what do you need without saying, what do you need? That's- if you can learn to listen and then ask a deeper question, you'll understand what they need based on these three levels, I guess, of practical, emotional or social conversation.

That's exactly right.

If you have trained yourself to understand how to be a super communicator, and practice it, you're going to feel like a hero to everyone you connect with. You're gonna feel like, wow, Charles really understands me and really gets it. He's just so easy to talk to every time I talk to him. It's gonna make you more likable. Yeah. More opportunities are probably gonna flow your way. You're gonna be more top of mind for people in the future when something comes up in a positive way. They're gonna come to you. You know, all these different things are gonna happen. I guess you're gonna have to learn how to create certain boundaries if they're coming to you too much or using you or whatever it might be.

Yeah, but those are good problems to have.

Yeah, exactly. Everyone wants my attention.

Too popular.

Yeah, exactly.

And I find that it's also when somebody asks you what you want out of a conversation, it feels really good. Like, I might come home and sometimes I come home and I'm upset about work and I'm complaining to my wife and she'll say, okay, do you want me to solve this with you or do you want me just to listen?

Right?

And vent or whatever.

Yeah.

And until that moment, I didn't know what I wanted. But when she asked the question, I'm like, oh, no, I want you to listen. I don't want a solution. Suddenly now I know, like, oh, the way I feel better is just by venting.

Right, exactly. I can be that way too, sometimes. You say in the book that all conversations are negotiations. Can you explain what that means?

So they're what's referred to, particularly at the beginning of a conversation. We usually have what's called a quiet negotiation. And it's important, oftentimes people hear a negotiation and they think of a negotiation where the goal is to win. A quiet negotiation is very, very different. The goal is not to win. The goal is simply to understand what the other person wants.

That is the win, I guess.

Yeah, that's the win.

That's the way.

I don't have to defeat you, but we can win together. So when I came in today and I sat down with you and we were kind of chatting about about how our lives are going, we signaled to each other a bunch of stuff. We signaled that we were casual with each other, that we like each other. We signaled that it was okay to interrupt each other. We signaled that we didn't have to be, we didn't have to do looping for understanding. You can hear that I'm listening to you and I can do the same. There's all these small cues that we pick up on. Now, imagine if we had come in and I had sat down and you were like, Hey, man, what's going on? And I was like, Well, it's good to see you today. Like, oh, allow me to tell you about myself, right?

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, and we've had that.

I had this last week with someone who was here, I won't say who it was, but I was trying to be more playful and open and flexible. And they eventually got there, but in the first 10 minutes, I like not intentionally interrupted, but I just kind of added to something and followed up with a question while they were still finishing something. But it's kind of how I do a lot of things. And he goes, Make sure you don't do that with the next person. He kind of like cued me, like, Let me finish first. I was like, okay, I'm gonna make sure I let him finish before I add something. Yeah. Okay, cool.

I know what the rules are now.

Yeah, I know the rules. He was kind of like, Hey, you know, it was like, which we, right.

It was kind of playful, but it.

Was kind of like, okay, like, I don't know him, so, okay. All right, let me, right. I want to make sure we get.

A good interview, so I'm gonna play by your rules. Well, and oftentimes what happens at the beginning of a conversation, even without us recognizing we're doing it, is that we conduct experiments. I might say something casual to you, and then I pay attention. Right, do you laugh back? I might interrupt you, and if you say, like, don't do that again, I'll notice, right? And the thing to remember is that I don't think it was a, It was not a mistake that you did that. It was not even a failure. Because the whole point of a conversation at the beginning is to work out those rules, experiment with it, experiment with it, and if every, like my wife is a scientist, if every experiment is a success, you're a terrible scientist, right? You want to do experiments that fail and succeed. That's when you're learning. And the fact that this guy told you that, it mean that he actually told you something about how he she communicates.

He likes, yeah. And as an interviewer, I don't know if you do this when you're doing research or interviewing people as well. For me, I like to tell people when they ask me about interviewing or podcasting, this is my 11th year now of doing this show. It'll be 11 year anniversary probably when this episode comes out. I always tell people that the pre-show is the show. Us talking for 10 minutes before we turned on the camera really determines a lot of how successful or unsuccessful the episode will go, or the energy or the flow is based on the connection when someone enters the door, the experience and the environment you create for them, whether that's you or the actual environment, your ability to see them before going on and if they feel heard and seen.

Yeah, that is the shell and vulnerability, right?

100%.

And I think so there's another idea that's really critical in the book and that is critical to what we've learned in the last decade, which is known as emotional reciprocity. That when I show you something vulnerable, you need to show me that you've heard it, but if you share something vulnerable in return, we will feel closer.

Really?

We really can't even, we can't, it's like hardwired. We can't not feel closer.

So one person shares something vulnerable and the other one, does not at least show empathy, even if they don't share something vulnerable about them, but if they show some type of- well, so showing.

Empathy is a form of vulnerability. Okay, right. So if you say, like, you know, my dad passed away and I say, oh man, I totally understand my aunt died 12 years ago. Right. That's not empathy. That's not empathy. That's not, I'm trying to steal the spotlight from you. I'm not trying to share it. But if you said, you know, my dad passed away, and I said, oh man, I like, I know how hard that is. I'm really sorry. And like, I've struggled with it. I'm sure you are if you want to talk about it. That's all it takes for me to reciprocate that vulnerability and to say to you, like, I welcome your vulnerability. I am trustworthy with it. And more importantly, like, I'm willing to go there with you. That's when all of a sudden we know the rules. We know the rules of this conversation. We know that And when we were talking before the show, and I asked about Martha and I asked about your life, and you're very open and you're very easy with your vulnerability. And just hearing that, it tells me the rules, right?

That you can be open, yeah.

This is a conversation where we can be honest with, where we can be honest and real. And once you have that, you're exactly right. The rest of the conversation is so much easier.

Absolutely, yeah. A lot of it is the first interactions you have with someone and kind of experimenting so you can understand the rules, the quiet negotiation, what are the rules of this dialogue going to be? Yeah. Speaking of honesty and challenging conversations, how can a super communicator that might be avoiding hard conversations with someone that as a friend or a business colleague or their partner, their intimate partner, How can a super communicator, I guess, navigate conflict, disagreement, or challenging conversations? To create a win-win.

It's a great question.

Right.

And there's a couple chapters on it, and it is sort of one of the biggest questions. And this is particularly in the last couple of years, there's a chapter about the story of what happened at Netflix, because there was an executive at Netflix a couple years ago in a meeting used the N-word. And very quite rightfully, the rest of the company was like, this is totally unacceptable. But it threatened to actually divide the company, because this was a popular executive. Some people were like, Look, he didn't mean it as a slur. He was using it as an example. And other people were like, this is unacceptable. You can't- It's got to be gone.

Yeah.

And it took four months for them to fire him. But at that point, The company was on the brink of civil war, and.

So the culture wasn't good.

The culture was just tearing them apart. So they hired this woman, Verne Myers, who's an amazing woman to come in. And the first thing that she did is she said, okay, look, instead of avoiding conversations about race, we're going to have conversations about race. But here's how we're going to do it. We're going to start each conversation by acknowledging this is going to be awkward. and by the way, I'm going to make a mistake. You're going to make a mistake. We're going to say things that, like, don't really come out the way we intended. It's going to be hard. And number two, everyone at this table deserves to be at this table. So simply, you know, obviously someone who's Black belongs to this table. But if you're white, you also have a racial experience and, like, we need to hear that experience. You can testify, you can witness. how your life has been as an expert. And everybody at the table has an equal right to talk about their own experiences. And that worked at Netflix. I mean, it actually worked really well. It brought the company back together. Now, that tough conversation you're having with an intimate partner or with a business partner where there's some conflict there, think about how differently it goes if you sit down and you say, Something serious I want to talk about, let me just acknowledge this is gonna be awkward and I'm gonna say some things that are gonna come off dumber than I mean them. And I'm just gonna ask for your forgiveness in advance. And my goal here is to really understand where you're coming from because you belong at this table as much as I do.

Impressing sounds like trying to be perfect, whereas connecting sounds like trying to be real and authentic.

Yes, exactly. I think connecting comes from being real and authentic. And impressing is what we do when we go in like we have something to prove. And if you approach anyone less from a place of I've got something to prove and more from a place of, I want to find the human in you and I want to show the human in me. And if we do that, then we're just going to enjoy each other's company. And that's like the highest goal, is that we enjoy being around each other. Not that I have some kind of power over you by impressing you. So now you've put me on a pedestal and now from that pedestal I feel like I'm in control and I can control the dynamic here. Because that's what so much of that is, isn't it? It's like if I'm impressive, Then it gives me a sense of control. But if instead I come to connect, it's like we're really relating to each other. And the power isn't my power over you. The power of the situation is that we really enjoy spending time together. You and I are friends. And the reason we love spending time together is not because we come over to each other's houses and impress each other.

Right, right, right, right.

We're friends because when we hang out, We're enjoying each other's company and that comes from connecting. And I think actually our love lives would be served more by bringing the connection part forward. And the impressing part can, that will happen. All the things that are wonderful about you, don't worry. They're gonna figure it out. And by the way, how much more powerful- When someone figures out something that's awesome about you and you didn't scream about it, It's even more impressive.

Very impressive.

It's really powerful because you go, if they didn't feel the need to make that the headline, what else do I not know about this person?

It's interesting you say that because I can't remember what it was in the last month, but Martha was like, oh, I didn't know you did this like 10 years ago. Like she just found out something that I did in the past. But she was like, I never knew you interviewed this person or you did this thing or that's really cool you did that. And just allowing someone to discover things about you, I think is impressive that you didn't shout it at the rooftops in the beginning, the first date or something.

And that doesn't mean that you have to artificially hide things either from a place of humility. If organically certain things about your life come up, that's fine. But I think it's questioning our intention going into a situation. I think, look, I'm out there talking about a book right now and talking to lots of amazing people and people who on the surface are very intimidating, big shows, whether it's podcasts like yourself, whether it's TV, whatever. It's like you, you're in some high stakes environments. And if I go into those things thinking I need to impress everybody here, then I'm already in danger of losing the thing that actually makes people connect with me.

Right.

Because I'm trying to now be something, and I'm trying to wear something and, and wear this badge of, look how great I am.

When someone is, I guess when someone is connecting with another person the first meeting, first date or first interaction.

What.

Is the biggest mistake they could make, you think, in pushing that person away from actually wanting to be curious about them and wanting to learn more about them? What is the biggest mistake that a guy could do and a woman can do in their first interaction of a date?

I mean, something that I think there's a real deficit of these days is actual vulnerability. Not like there's sort of fake, there's a lot of fake vulnerability. There's a lot of people telling like their hero's journey. You know what I mean?

Like, for sure.

And we all have one of those stories, right? We all have the story of when we weren't doing so well, And when our back was against the wall and the odds were against us, and we were in a really bad spot in life, and then we came through. But those aren't necessarily vulnerable stories because you're the hero of that story. It's like, look how hard it was and look how awesome I am that I was able to get out of that. There's no shame on doing that. It's just, I don't think that that's the same thing as as connecting with who you really are and what you think about. And that's like a very, you know, we have these very well scripted heroes Journey stories of our life that make us sound really impressive, but I don't think that's the same thing as really connecting. And I think. And being vulnerable. And so I think one of the way that one of the mistakes, I suppose, that people make early on is Never really being vulnerable and vulnerability isn't. I always remember I did a TV show in Australia and before anyone who doesn't know me watching this thinks that that must mean I'm Australian, I am not, I'm English. I feel like everyone in America always still thinks I'm Australian. But I was doing, confusingly, I was doing a TV show in Australia.

Did they know you were British?

Australia. Yeah, they know. They know. But I remember this, this woman that I was coaching on this show, she kept going on to every date. She went on this date, and I was supposed to give feedback, watching them on the dates and seeing how they did and what they could do to kind of improve next time around. And one of the things I kept noticing was like throughout the date she was just really laughing hard at everything this guy said. And at the end of the date, I said to her, he wasn't that funny. Like, you were laughing like constantly, but he wasn't very funny. It doesn't mean you couldn't have politely laughed now and again. You know, his attempts to be funny, but the way that you were laughing all the way through the date was sort of inauthentic. It wasn't really you, because I know you didn't find all of those things funny. And by the way, you were laughing hysterically even when he wasn't trying to be funny. So I said, that in itself was an absence of vulnerability, because instead of just connecting as you were and sitting into the date, maybe occasionally allowing there to be a breath without filling every silence. And that would have been, even that would have been a more authentic experience. So I said to her, the next date you go on with the guy, I want you to just share a little more, you know, because you also asked him a lot of questions. That's another version of not being vulnerable, is when we just ask someone else lots and lots of questions and keep them talking.

Yes.

And we don't ever share anything. And I coach a lot of people who are like, you know, especially a lot of women I work with are like, men don't ask questions. And I know that if you were to watch a lot of them, by the way, that's true. A lot of guys aren't asking questions. They're all too happy to just take the floor.

Yeah.

And talk about themselves. But we play in. If we're in a insecure place of not wanting to be vulnerable ourselves, we play into that dynamic. because we keep setting them up. We ask another question, and when they've finished talking, instead of vulnerably allowing there to be a silence for that person to have to now come in and ask you a question, you fill it again, and you ask another question, and then that person says, okay, me again. And then they start talking and telling you another story.

So.

We actually precipitate that dynamic.

Yes.

By never taking the floor for ourselves and telling a story or sharing. So anyway, for me, her version of just asking questions and laughing was a form of lacking vulnerability, not really sharing.

Yeah.

So I said, the next date I want you to go on, I want you to be a more authentic version of yourself, and I want you to share. And this is darkly funny, but do you understand the context in which this was funny? She went on the date. And she told a story of a horrible car accident her father had had.

Oh, my gosh.

That changed his life forever.

And.

You know, I just remember being tickled by it because it was obviously a very, this was a big story in her life. This is like one of the most tragic moments in hers and her dad's life. This was not like a second date, right? This is how to like, when I said be vulnerable, I didn't mean go and tell the most tragic story of your life.

Yes.

There's other ways to be vulnerable, 'cause not everyone deserves to know at the beginning of our connection with them, all of our flaws, everything we're insecure about, everything we worry about on our worst days, all of the things we're struggling with. Yeah, like you don't necessarily trust someone enough with, you don't feel safe with them enough to share all of those things. But there's other ways to be vulnerable. If you share with someone something that you're passionate about, that's vulnerable.

Yeah.

Because often what we're passionate about isn't popular or it's not cool.

It's weird, it's nerdy, it's some unique hobby.

It's weird, yeah. It's like our thing. And it's a little bit like it's very us, whatever that thing is, very often. Or why we like it is very us. And so sharing something, whether it's a TV show or a song that you listen to a lot, that you like, if it came on your like Spotify shuffle, it would like, it would embarrass you that it came on in a room and that was on your, the shuffle gods really screwed you by playing that while everyone else was around. That sharing those things and the things you're into, that itself is an act of vulnerability because you're sort of, allowing yourself to be seen a little bit.

Yeah.

So, you know, I think these are all ways that people can be on a date with us or be in a room with us and go, aha, a person. And it's worth asking ourselves, how, how did I create any of those moments on this date? Or was I constantly tight and tense and censoring myself and anything that was really me and asking them lots of questions, which is a It feels like connecting when you're only ever asking someone else questions. Because you're like, I'm doing it all right. I'm told to be a great listener and I'm told to be curious. And I was doing that. I was being really, really curious. But there's a point where that goes past- Too much.

Yeah.

Because now there's not a connection here.

No one knows anything about you. Yeah, exactly. Now here's something I'm curious about. What is it that women actually want today in a relationship? and I'll give you context. I was watching this video online recently of some guy on the street asking a woman, like, what's your biggest turn off in a man? And the woman said, she was probably in her late 20s. The woman said, when a man is nice to me, she goes, I know I probably shouldn't be saying this, but when he's too nice to me, it's a turn off and then turns into another video of a guy holding flowers at a restaurant who's taking a selfie video saying, I just got stood up by my date. You know, we were having a good conversation online when we were connecting. You know, I was taking the lead by choosing a restaurant that I thought she might be interested in by doing research on her profile and making suggestions. We were having great interactions. I was being very kind and generous with my attention. I brought flowers. I was on time and she stood me up. And I'm trying to be a thoughtful, generous, kind man and I got stood up for it. So what is it that women actually want today, do you think? And maybe this is just this one woman that was interviewed saying, when a guy is too nice to me, it's a turn off. But why? Is it sometimes it seems like when men are actually trying to be good leaders, trying to be providers, trying to show up and do a nice gesture, here's some flowers, pick the restaurant, show up well dressed and groomed, why is that a turn off for some women?

Okay, I feel like there's a lot to say about this. Firstly, can we talk about the spent a lot of time looking at her profile, figuring out what she might like, picking a restaurant for the date, bringing flowers. Like, that raises a lot of questions for me.

Okay, well, let's say it was all good intentions, though. Let's say it was.

No, no, but those are good. Those might be good intentions.

Yeah.

Let's just take it that they were good intentions. It's still like. I don't know if that's nice. I don't know if that's nice. I think that that's like a. There's that.

It's like trying too hard or.

I mean it.

You know, if you've just been talking to someone and you haven't even been on a date with them yet, I mean, it's different. If you were long distance talking with someone for a month and you were having an amazing time with them and you were like having great phone conversations and FaceTimes and then you show up, right? Right, right, right. Finally you get to meet in person and you've picked a restaurant you know they'll like because they've told you what food they're into and you've brought flowers because you know what flowers they like at this stage. And you know, you're bringing them as because it represents a connection that you already have, then all of that feels more appropriate to me.

Sure, sure.

But that feels like a kind of a bit of a victimized, a guy victimizing himself by saying, look at everything I did for a person who's sort of going to show up to that date and go, why did you do all of this? We don't even, we haven't even been on, like, a date before. We don't even really know we like each other. Why? Why are you buying me flowers on a first date? It feels a bit like, I don't know a lot of people that would show up to a first date having put in all of that effort. And I would worry that anyone who puts in all of that effort for someone that they're just meeting up with to see if they like each other, I would worry about that person coming across a little bit creepy.

Interesting. Okay.

So I think that that's a. And look, we're talking about a YouTube video, so, you know, it's quite possible that someone did all of those things and said, look, women say they want a nice guy, and then I brought flowers on a date and But let's rewind for a second, because you said the woman said, the guys too nice. Now look, I think that's very honest.

And she was like, I shouldn't be saying this, but when he's too nice to me, it's kind of a turn off.

Yes. Now, there's versions, you know, okay, there's the version of it I just said, which I think does indicate to a person, like, there's something a bit off here about how hard you're trying at this stage.

Sure.

I think it could be too creepy. I shouldn't be getting this amount of effort at this stage. And by the way, if I am getting this amount of effort at this stage, here's what I know about you. This isn't really about me. Because you don't know me. Interesting. So if you suddenly, it's like a guy- It's like love bombing almost. Yeah, and we, you know, love bombing is often, there's, it can be a more manipulative or sinister aspect of love bombing that I kind of know what I'm doing. When I love, I think there's a very dark end of the spectrum with love bombing, and there's a much more naive end of the spectrum with love bombing. The sort of dark end of the spectrum is someone who's really trying to get you to move faster than you would organically move so that they can extract a lot of attention and value and love from you very, very quickly. But the more naive end of the love bombing spectrum, I think, happens with people who you know, fall for someone very quickly. And then because they've fallen for this person that they don't even know, they are now trying on a level that is completely unjustified because they're responding to the story they've created in their head, not the person they actually have in front of them. And when someone feels that they are, they can sense that there's something off about this, that you don't really know me. We've exchanged texts.

Yeah.

You don't know who I am. You don't know what I'm into on a deeper level. You don't know what I'm like. You don't. You shouldn't really know that you like me this much yet. So given this kind of flowers and poetry and whatever, and this doesn't.

Interesting.

This is actually a sign that you're projecting right now, and I don't like that you're projecting. It makes me feel strange. because you're not really seeing me. And so, and if, by the way, if you could be feeling this about me right now, based on how little you know me, what it says to me is you could be feeling this about anybody next week. Interesting. So this is about you. It's not about me. So I, so, but I do want to go back to the, to the women, you know, saying they want a nice guy thing because, or that they might get turned off by someone who's too nice. So I think that's one version of being turned off because someone's too nice. We sense that their niceness is false.

Gotcha. But what if someone is genuinely nice? Yes. They're just maybe not mean to them. Then it is. They're not showing them poetry and flowers.

But they're just attentive, kind. That's a sign of, look, that's a sign of an unhealthy person. If it's a woman saying it, it's a sign of an unhealthy woman. If it's a man saying it, it's.

A sign of an unhealthy man. What is a woman saying? What is a woman truly saying if.

They say, I don't like nice guys? They're saying that my nervous system.

Does.

Not produce the effect that I call love around people who do not send it into some kind of fight or flight response.

Wow.

It's there are when I am met with someone who does not make me chase when I am met with someone who doesn't make me feel I have to earn their love. When I am met with someone who doesn't play games, doesn't give me anxiety by being consistent for three days and then dropping off the radar for five or a week, when I am with someone who doesn't do those things, It doesn't feel like love to me. It does not feel like passion. It doesn't feel like fireworks. It doesn't feel like the thing that I think I'm supposed to feel. And there's obviously so much knowledge now on where those things come from and that there are old patterns in how we relate it to our caregivers or our parents or how they related to us.

That.

Gets us used to a certain pattern. We get this nervous system imprint that is created at a very early point in life, and we spend the rest of our lives replicating that if we're not careful. So the great kind of challenge, I think, for all of us, and this is true, by the way, of men too, right? How many men relentlessly chase after women who don't seem to want them? Who reject them. Who treat them like they're disposable.

Yeah.

How many guys are playing the friend to a woman for years on end who picks them up and puts them down whenever it suits her and they're doing it for years on end? This is not just a female pattern. This is a people pattern. Why is it that we respond to people who treat us poorly?

Why do we think we do?

Because there is something about it that is known to us.

It is familiar.

It's familiar and we don't realize it. We think we hate it. I hate it. I hate that this person doesn't want me. And if I could just get this person to want me, I'd feel good again. But It, what people often find is if that person truly turned around to meet you and gave you everything that you wanted from the beginning, it would have felt strange that there's something in this dynamic that is in a weird way safe to you.

Yes.

It doesn't make you feel safe, but there's some kind of safety in the familiar and and that's not our fault. We should exercise compassion towards ourselves for that, because it's not our fault that these, these really damaging and destructive patterns are things that we Chase because they're it. This was created at a time when we weren't deciding our response systems to things. It was. We were in survival mode. And, you know, there's a. I spoke to a woman. recently. I did a show recently where the host of the show said, I really struggle to have hard conversations with people. Like, if I have to have a heart. And a big part of this book is, like, I have a whole section on how to have hard conversations. Because, by the way, every relationship is shaped. It is, is, is, is made in the Crucible of hard conversations. Right. Can you have the difficult conversation? Can you say the thing you're afraid to say? and can you express your need without fearing that if you do, something bad will happen? And so many of the times people end up in painful relationships, or not even relationships, they end up in painful Dynamics, or they end up in limbo with someone where it never ends up as a relationship. It's always casual, is because they're afraid to have the hard conversations. There was this woman that was part one of the hosts of the show. and it was. And she said to me, I really struggle to have hard conversations. And I don't know why. I just, you know, every time I go to have a hard conversation, it's like I break out in sweats and I panic, and I'm, you know, she said, it's just, it wasn't that in my family, like, no one's really ever had hard conversation. She said, and she didn't realize what she was saying as she said it, but she said, you know, I mean, it's like my dad, for example, if I try to have a hard conversation with him, he just leaves the room.

Right.

And she kept going, but she didn't realize what she had said, which is your entire life, because that wasn't a pattern your dad started yesterday. Your dad's most likely been like that since the day you were born. So what you learned is that if you tried to have a hard conversation with your father, he would leave the room.

He would abandon you.

So now you have what therapists call a core abandonment wound, right? That's a, this is something that's now with you. And you wonder why with this person that you're on date three with, who shouldn't even be that important to you, right? Why it feels hard to articulate that, you know, you are disappointed that they showed up half hour late to the date or that they didn't text you for a week and then all of a sudden like reached out out of nowhere to say, do you want to do something in one hour? And then you went without expressing that like, hey, we had two great dates and then you were like, I didn't hear from you for a week and now you're like, are you ready in an hour? The reason she didn't express that is, and the reason it made her so terrified to express it, irrationally terrified is because in her world, it's been perfectly rational. It's not. This is where compassion comes in, because we're very good at calling ourselves crazy. Like, I feel crazy. Why am I so scared of having this conversation? Or we get called crazy by other people. That's a favorite thing to call people. Ah, she was crazy. Oh, they're crazy. Like, you can't believe what they tried to do or what they said to me. They're not crazy. Something happened. They experienced something in their world at a time when it was their reality. It was her reality growing up. And I'm extrapolating here, but like I said, if she's saying that about her dad, almost certainly her dad didn't start doing that last week.

Right.

He'S been doing it her whole life. It was real for her that there was a time in her life where if she tried to express a need with her father or tell him something that she wasn't happy with or something that she'd like him to do more of or less of or a way that he'd hurt her, he would not be able to have the conversation and he would leave. That when you're a child, that's that poses a real threat to you.

Yes.

So what she's feeling now is rational for her in her world based on where she came from. We look at it from the outside and go, I can't believe that she would be so afraid to say this thing. And she's going to end up in a two-year relationship with someone who never meets any of her needs, who doesn't even know what her needs are, who she resents deep down because it's like he never thinks of me.

Yeah.

But she's terrified to have that conversation because for her, if she has a hard conversation, it means abandonment. And abandonment means on an emotional level, not a logical level, she might not survive.

Yes.

And so when someone says, I struggle, I find it a turn off when someone is nice. They are articulating a deep, deep pattern that has been there for a long time in their life.

And what I'm hearing you say is we just need more grace in general for ourselves and others.

No, we don't just need more grace. We still need more order. We still need to start- More accountability. And more accountability and more self-accountability, more like less hypocrisy and more like organizing for what the actual end goal is here. What are the big things we're fighting for? Let's stop focusing in on the minutia. It's working on the big things that hurt everyone in our society. And let's work together on that. Let's organize. And then on top of that, in order to be able to do that, you need more grace. Doesn't mean you can't criticize each other. It doesn't mean you can't get pissed off with one another. It doesn't mean you can't fight. It just means that the fight has to end at some point. There has to be a road back. We have to allow for a space for atonement. And we have to recognize that there is a part of us that enjoys watching other people fail and do something wrong and make mistakes, because then we don't have to think about all the terrible mistakes and terrible thoughts that we've made.

Yeah.

And all the mistakes we've made, it's like, oh good, everyone's looking at them, so no one's looking at me.

Right, right, right.

And so the reason dogpiles happen mostly, it's not because everyone cares that much about that thing. We can see that the thing that we want to say has been said a thousand times, but we want to loudly, from a tribal perspective, from a tribal place rather, we want to loudly exclaim our disapproval so that we announce which tribe We're on. We want to say, I'm with the bigger crowd, so don't include me in any of that. I just want to, we want to be safe. We want to be in the tribe. We don't want to be left on our own to be eaten alive. And what I feel very sad about is that more and more, when someone gets into trouble for something that isn't like egregious physical violence, the kind of thing where they really destroyed someone's life where that person might never recover. We just leave them for dead? When I got piled onto, I got left for dead. And racists and bigots and misogynists were all able to come for me. And no one from my side stepped in.

How is that?

And then as soon as I overcame it, everyone came back.

Why is that?

Everyone came back and it was like it never happened. And they were like, oh, I'm so glad you came back through that thing. And I got Marvel. And then I was back on the COVID of Vogue and I was I was having a great time and all of a sudden, all my friends came rushing, not my real friends, they never left me.

Celebrity friends.

All these people, all these media figures were suddenly all around me wanting to be in pictures again.

And I was like, isn't that interesting?

Yeah, and so, you know, sometimes I now get into trouble for trying to show public grace to someone in a moment of their disgrace. And I understand why I get into trouble for that. But this is, it might be my mistake. But I'm not afraid of mistakes. I believe in my heart right now that love and extending a tiny bit of grace or hope to someone is the best way for them to come back from that thing and do better. And that seeing someone go from doing something bad to doing something better is much more healthy and helpful for our society than just watching them disappear. 100% seeing change, seeing change. My audience love watching me change. They love that I used to be a misogynist and I'm growing less and less problematic as time goes on. But they enjoy the fact that they're watching me become not only a better person, but happier, happier, healthier, allowing myself to fail. like getting rid of the shackles of the perfection that women are held up to, like the standards of perfection that women are held up to. I've never felt more at peace. I've never felt more love. I've never felt more connected. I've never been more open to a fist bump. I'm English, but I'll take it. But I've never felt more connected to the world. And I think a large part of our loneliness as a society is coming from the fact that we are starting to We're being trained and encouraged by social media and media and algorithms to look at each other as enemies. We are not each other's enemies. There are people far more powerful whose names we don't know deliberately who are controlling all of this and making us stare at each other rather than looking for them. And I want to go after them. So expect now that I've said that, that to be another huge random media scandal.

This is powerful. I'm curious, where do you think you'd be if you didn't have have the, you know, the attacks of everyone coming at you in 2020. Where do you think you'd be right now without that experience, that sadness, that loneliness, that loss of, oh, I thought these people were my friends, and then they left, and then they came back.

And I think I'd be in a fairly similar place.

Really?

I really do. I think when it comes to noticing and fighting for the way that we elevate women just to drag them down, I think that's what that taught me.

'Cause you experienced it.

And I think I might be less inclined to reach out to someone in a moment of disgrace. That would be something that would be different. I think I would be the way everyone else is, which is all, I don't want to catch it. I don't want to be nice to them or like anything or keep following them in case anyone drags me into this. I don't want to be in the tribe. But what you do is you leave someone so isolated that then they feel hopeless and, you know... Bad things happen. Yeah, people have died. I know people have died. I almost died.

Yeah.

I almost truly died. I can't believe I'm still here.

Wow.

And had I not lived with my best friends and my boyfriend and not had the kindness of the people, you know, around me and medication that I'm no longer on, but I needed in that moment, I'd. I'd be dead for sure. It isn't. I understand that people look at public figures as like, well, you've got this money and this power. And definitely true, yes. It's not the same as when it happens to someone who works in a shop or a store or in a school, which does happen. It doesn't just happen to the... That's the other thing. We think this stuff just happens to famous people. What happens is it bleeds into our culture and it permeates our culture. It happens to people who we never hear about. It happens to people in schools, in their workplace, and they get ostracized and they lose their job, and they have no other means. They've got no way to... They can't even afford a therapist through all of it. the kids are wanting and they're learning. But I think other than that, I think I would be at the same place when it comes to division because the pandemic shifted something in our society globally and the loss of women's rights and the hatred that we're seeing now, we're not seeing people disagree with each other's opinions. We're seeing real Visceral hatred. Evil hatred, yeah. Yeah, and we're seeing mockery of each other that I don't think is very helpful, that I totally participated in before. You know, just a few years ago, if some man was incredibly degrading to me on Twitter, I would call him an incel. And I look back and I'm like, Call him a what? An incel. Yeah, you know, when someone's in voluntary celibate, without really thinking about, like, yes, he shouldn't have degraded me, and yes, he should never have spoken to me in that sexist and disgusting way. But my calling him an incel just lowers me to his level and is actually perpetuating a really cruel, unkind message about men who feel lonely. So then I suck.

Right.

And so I stopped doing that a few years ago. Like, I'm... That's good. But I, you know, it's not like, I'm not like... Right, right, right. It's just... It's good you're aware of it and.

You'Re acknowledging it and you're...

It's like slap down, smack down, own the libs, own the Republicans. You know, even liberals, these videos they make where they go out in to these parts of the country where a lot of these people, they're not from the same metropolitan cities we are. They're not exposed to the same news or algorithms that we are. They are largely ignored by both coasts until suddenly someone's got a microphone and they want to go and interview some 70-year-old Republican man who's a farmer and ask him his opinions on these very new topics of discussion, and he might give an ill-informed or outdated answer. And then the way we laugh and it goes viral and everyone loves it and we just on them. What message does that send? What does that say to everyone watching that? It says we think you're idiots.

You're less than.

You're less than. They think we're idiots. We are all everyone right now being idiots because we're we're fighting the wrong target. None of us are smarter or better than each other. We're all just informed differently. And the faster we can all work to explain that to people, the faster we will bring people together into a much healthier and happier society. And that's where I want my work to everything I'm doing is now towards mental health.

I was just going to mention that because with your with your show, your podcast, I Way, which is a great show that I've been on. And I think I've seen the evolution of it, which is inspiring to see that it's focused more on mental health now. And I think something you said, which is self accountability, self-control, mental health and enter your own healing. The things that I think when we work on those things, Everything gets better because then you can interpret things better, you can pause, you can give people grace, you can give yourself grace. You can, as opposed to just, I'm angry, I'm lashing out because I'm hurt. And I'm afraid.

Yes. Everyone feels afraid all the time. It's really bad for your nervous system. It's neurologically terrible. We've had doctors on my podcast come on and explain that mistakes are the most effective way for somebody to learn. That's how neurologically your brain is more likely to implement and keep information. We've made people afraid of mistakes. We've made people afraid of everything. And people feel so afraid of and isolated and judged by each other. It's not good. And so what I weigh has been more focusing on is me reaching across to people who are less and less like me. I'm wanting to engage in civil discourse.

It's inspiring.

I'm wanting to expose new ideas that are away from group think and just challenge them sometimes, but respectfully.

Yeah, of course.

Or sometimes have my mind opened.

What's the thing that's opened your mind the most from someone that maybe you said, I don't think I'm going to learn much from this person, but I'm curious to see what they have to say. And maybe I'd be open. Who shocked you or what idea opened you up?

I think the thing that has probably taken me by surprise the most has been neurologists. In that it's not that I went in with any kind of preemptive decision of what I was going to Here, but I had no idea how much neurology, how much brain science actually informs our personality and informs our behavior and informs our anxiety and informs our depression. I had no idea about the way that we are wired and how much that could just, and how, how what we eat and what we drink and how much we sleep. I always thought, yeah, yeah, I get it. I get it. Exercise.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I hate exercise. Yeah, don't drink alcohol, yada yada yada. It's like, yeah, yeah, I get it. It's completely transformed my life. I've been listening to these people. I've been learning about glucose, and I've been learning about daily exercise. And I'm mortified to admit that it's.

Made me happier than I've ever been.

I'm mortified. Because you were like, Screw this stuff.

I hate sweating.

I think it's disgusting.

Wow.

But I've been exercising, you know, a little bit every single day. I've been bringing my audience along for the ride because obviously we were kind of a very clear anti-diet culture space. So it was, you know, it's for.

Where a lot of eating disorder recovery.

Sure, sure. You know, where a lot of people who've had eating disorders come to, you know, what we've created as a safe haven for eating disorders. And so exercise is a really tricky conversation for most people.

Yeah. Because there's so much shame around exercise.

It's not a healthy version. It's more of an extreme version. It's all for the, it's all for the exterior. It's all for the vanity.

And that's what you know the power of your brain and how helpful it is for that, which helps you heal, calm, feel differently.

It changes everything. But our focus is, you know, look at the exercise attire that men and women are expected to wear, especially women with the bra and like the light-colored leggings. And that's fine. Everyone should just do themselves.

Sure.

Not everyone feels comfortable. I don't want to bend over. and see what I look like bending over in a mirror. I had an eating disorder for 20 years. I have body dysmorphia. That's going to make me not want to go again the next day because I'm going to go into a place of judgment. And, you know, we also, again, we want instant results, instant results. It takes a long time. It takes a long time. Not that long. Not as long as you think, but it takes like six months.

It's not three week abs, six pack.

It's like six months minimum to really start seeing. When I was 24, I walked into my friend who's a personal trainer. who then went on to train me for Marvel, Al Jackson. I walked into his gym when I was 24. I was like, how long would it take me to get an a** like Nicole Scherzinger? And he looked at my... And he was like, about three months. And I was like, nah, never mind. I walked out.

Even three months is not that long.

Amazing.

Yeah. Three months.

It was probably gonna be a sneak peek. Six to nine. But still, I heard that and I was like, well, if there's not two weeks, I don't have time for that.

Oh, my God.

Classic. Classic of our generation. I'm just not gonna work out at all.

Yeah.

But when you think about the neurological benefits of exercise and the fact that within 10 to 15 minutes you have endorphins, you have happy chemicals going through your brain that are de-stressing you, making it more likely for you to be able to sleep that night, de-stressing you, you immediately feel better than you felt beforehand. And then if you keep that up every day, within a week or two, your life starts to genuinely feel differently. And so I've been trying to bring.

My audience along with me on this journey doing that. It's called Move for your Mind.

How dare you exercise?

How dare you enjoy it?

But I found a way that is like in baggy clothes, eating sugary snacks so we can divorce the idea of calories out, calories in. We're going against all of exercise culture and all of diet culture because exercise culture and diet culture are just married now. And so we've kind of created this slightly anarchist, rebellious exercise culture. Don't work out, but make sure you're moving. But you can look ridiculous. I look ridiculous. I have no idea. That's great. Swag, you know? I don't know if that's the right word.

Don't work out for Instagram.

Don't work out for Instagram. Work out for yourself. I'm gonna wanna see that. But like dance in your kitchen. Do things that are free. Lift water bottles. Lift your dog. Lift your child. You know, go for a walk every day. Do simple things. Buy a $300 walking machine, which might be expensive for some people, but some people it might be affordable. So if you're a woman and you're afraid of walking at night, I walk on that and I watch my favorite TV shows and then I get my half an hour a day and then I feel amazing and I have a great night's sleep.

Mm-.

I sound smug and disgusting. I hate myself. I promise myself I would never be this person.

Or a healthy person?

An exercising person. But we're trying to find unpretentious, fun and welcoming ways for people at any size or with any disability or any stage of pregnancy to join us and not feel ostracised. That's cool. Because we still, I mean, whenever there's a plus size line for exercise workout, the world goes mad. So what did you want them to wear when they were exercising? You want these people to exercise and work out and be healthy? What do you want to be naked in the gym? The gyms are not a very friendly space. So it's just about finding an alternative way to democratize exercise and bring it back to the people. It was ours. It got industrialized, like, a matter of decades ago and turned into this exclusive club where you have a uniform. Why do you need a uniform?

Yeah, unless you're playing a professional sport.

Actually, well, you have this uniform that's getting sexier and sexier and sexier every year for both for all the genders. And it's becoming more and more about just becoming a billboard for other people. No one's thinking about the inside. It's all very punitive. It's a punitive, like no pain, no gain is the stupidest slogan of our generation. One-off.

Right. Well, it's also with men, it's like you just see men just shirtless everywhere who are just shredded and probably on steroids or human growth hormone. And so they're just like so ripped that you're just like, most men are like, I could never get to that point.

Yeah, but that get to happy.

Right, exactly.

That person might be struggling with an eating disorder or some sort of body dysmorphia or orthorexia. You know, we don't know what everyone's story is. Just focus on being happier in an hour than you are right now.

Yeah.

Feeling autonomous. So many of us don't feel autonomous in the world because there's so much chaos and we're doom scrolling and we're looking at how the world is falling apart and our kids are changing faster than we were at their age and Everyone feels so like, oh my God, it feels like I'm in quicksand all of the time. It's like it's a quick way to immediately feel like, okay, my feet are back on the ground. And it's just temporary, but then you do it again. Absolutely. And so that's a big part of what we're doing over at Ayurveda is exercise culture, but also neurology and learning that you can really make fundamental quick changes that it doesn't just have to be medication. I'm pro medication. and it doesn't just having to be access to the best therapy, which no one can afford en masse. There are so many ways you can rewire your own brain. And I think these people, people like Dr. Caroline Leaf, who's been on our podcast, are fantastic and important. And they're about no longer succumbing just to big pharma, but giving the power back to the people to have autonomy in their own recovery.

Absolutely.

It's empowering.

That's inspiring. So what I'm hearing you say is that When you started to talk to neurologists or brain scientists, you started to learn these ideas just make you happier and healthier overall. And so you started, you know, mortifying yourself by doing these things. Yeah. And you started to see results.

Instagram live, yeah.

And you started to see results.

Yeah, I'm happier than I've ever been. I noticed.

You're nicer than I used to be. You see it? Yeah, exactly. I could feel the energy right away when you walked in here. I go, Something has shifted within you. Yeah. Now that you're bad, before I said it was just like, No, but I had a defensive. You had a more of an aggressive energy.

Yeah, I was defensive and I think there's nothing wrong with a little bit of female aggression, but I do think that what I had was more of a defensive energy. That's what it was. Again, I was flying so high and everyone was congratulating me so much that I was like, I was just waiting for the shoe shop and also everyone, every podcast I went on, someone was trying to trap me or, you know.

And so I didn't know what you.

Were gonna be like, like I didn't know what you were trying to trap me. I hope you didn't think I was trying to trap you. You were great. I had you on my podcast. We had a great time. It's just, I just didn't know who to trust. I knew that the other shoe was going to drop any moment and I just didn't know when it was going to happen and I had this anxiety and I think also because everything was happening so fast and because I had that anxiety, I think that also accounts for some of my worse, my poorer decisions with things that I said publicly, subjects I weighed into. Why am I talking about global conflict? What do I know about global conflict? But I felt pressured to because people are like, your silence on this is deafening. And so you're like, I don't want to think I don't care. I want to know I care about.

Their country, but I don't know anything about their country. That's one of the biggest things when people say, I can't believe we're not supporting this or this or this or this and you're not saying something means you don't support it. Yeah.

I'm like, maybe I just don't know what to say.

Yeah.

And you're, because I know this, the one thing about eating disorders, I'm expected to know everything about everything. And my bad for trying to jump in when I didn't know because I only ever created more mess. And for some reason, the media, like, I can, and it can make a headline. So, like, it, like, and I don't know why, but they, they know that I'm divisive. They know I'm controversial. They know that I'm outspoken. Yeah. They, they, and then they further polarize me by making the headline as egregious as possible and violent as possible. It's always Jamila Jamil slams. And often I've just had a really thoughtful thing with, like, a love heart.

Right. Not always. Right, right, right. Sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What did it feel like to you when you know, you had people that were maybe seemed like friends or acquaintances, but when you were going through your stuff in the media and people, you know, went against you or just stopped talking to you for a period of time, how did they make you feel? And how is your relationship with certain people like that once they started to come back around?

They'll never be back on the inside, ever. And I think It can be helpful in moments like that, as heartbreaking as they are, because it was heartbreaking.

Yeah, I know the feeling.

You felt very betrayed and you also judge your own sense of judgment. You question yourself, which is never a nice, it's a shaky feeling when you can't trust your gut instinct. But truly, it's also an extraordinary magnifying glass of clarity that I'm so grateful for, because I have this extraordinary pool of people now left, who I know have got my back, who don't care, who don't look at the internet, who challenge me when I'm wrong with grace and love. And they maintain the most fundamental quality that I think we all need, which is to have the benefit of the doubt.

100%.

It's the benefit of the doubt is going to carry us to a better society.

Yes, it is.

We have lost the benefit of the doubt, especially for women. We have reserved quite a lot of it for men, but even then we assume people's worst intentions and that's not the world that I grew up in.

Yeah, and if we're modeling this to our kids, what do we expect them to do? Have great values and, you know, be open to conversation.

What's a great value? The values that are correct keep changing. So what's a great value? What does inclusion look like? What does diversity of friendship groups look like? Debate is the foundation of democracy.

We've stopped that.

Disagreement rather is the foundation of democracy.

We've stopped debating. We just said, no, I'm not gonna listen to you. I was gonna yell at you and now I'm listening.

Yeah, I just, like I said, I've done it before, got me nowhere. Didn't make me feel good, made me feel really lonely and sad, and alienated me from people. And I don't wanna be alienated from people.

I wanna be friends.

I want us to be together. Yeah, I don't want to have children, but this work is my way of making the world easier for my friends who are having children. If I can make it a safer world for their kids, then that makes up for the fact that I refuse to be called mother.

Really, I'll tell you what, I'm inspired by just the journey you're on. You know, I'm inspired that you got to experience so much in the last six, seven years. You got to experience a rise of Fame quickly, and you did some things that you were proud of, but also things you weren't proud of, and you learned from them. You know, I'm glad you got to experience people for you and then against you because you learned from him. And I feel like you're a better person because of that, and you have more perspective now. And at the end of the day, you've got a lot of Grace for yourself and Grace for others, and it sounds to me You want people to come together, you want people to be open-minded, you also want people to be accountable for their actions, and you want people to focus on their mental health and their optimizing of their own mental health, optimizing their own physical body and their spiritual health so they can have more peace and grace for themselves and others. That's what I'm hearing you say.

Yeah, we talk about mental health so much now in society and it's a big part of the zeitgeist, but I still think we're talking about it from not quite the right angle. We're still talking about it as though like, this would be a good thing to have on an individual basis. Wouldn't it be nice if you had, if you could make your mortgage payments and look after all your kids and take them to all the practices and do all of this for everyone, but then also not want to kill yourself. It's definitely still seen as a surplus, whereas actually it should be the foundation of everything that we are going to. I can't believe mental health is not free in this country. I cannot believe it's not free in every single country. It is in many countries. But this should, this is how we increase our GDP. People can work healthier. People can be healthier. They will be in the hospital less if they are happier because stress and loneliness and all these different things are huge factors as to what destroys people's health and immune systems. It would change the amount of people having to go in psychiatric care. It would change the amount of homelessness there is. It would change the way that we treat each other as a society. It would change everything. that's where the money should go. All the money should go there. If we can all as a world put the money instead of in the military only into mental health, if we could take some of those trillions and put it towards making the people and the children happier and having children have access to mental health, we wouldn't need so much military. There wouldn't be so much war. We wouldn't need the police as often as we do. We wouldn't need as many drugs or whatever else. As many drugs or as many different things that we have now to numb the pain. Numbing devices. To help people escape from the pain. I agree. We wouldn't be sewn to our phones. And a lot of people who make a lot of money from us doing that know that. They don't make the move to improve our mental health. And so we have to do it ourselves. And people like us have to tell people. I'm loving this message.

I just think- I'm inspired by this message.

I think it's the most important thing in the world. And it's still treated as like a luxury. rather than a fundamental. And it should be the same as brushing your teeth or, you know, getting out in the sun or whatever. Sure, sure. As opposed to do eating good food. So I'm, I'm like, we didn't know what we were going to talk about.

I'm just, I keep them inspired by this because, you know, I just love seeing the journey. I didn't know this is where you're at fully. So for you coming in, I was just like, wow, this is really inspiring. I have a couple final questions for you that I think well, I know I asked you the first time on the show, and so I'm really fascinated to hear what the response is to them. And if it's the same or if it's changed since the last time, I.

Remember what I said, so you'll get all this on.

Yeah, we'll. We'll link that back up so people can see the last one also. But I'll ask that in a second. But I want people to check out your shows. You got eye way, you got bad dates, which is hilarious. You're on social media, Jamila Jamil on, you know, Instagram, Tick Tock, Twitter, everywhere. www.aywaycommunity.com How else can we follow or support you with what you're up to right now?

I think just join me at Ayway or join me on my social media. Join the mental health movement. I think that we really have an opportunity to change the future of marketing and mental health and include more people. Listen to Ayway. It's a great podcast on neurology and mental health that offers you the autonomy to take it into your own hands. Listen to bad dates if you want to feel better about your own romantic life. It is the most disgusting and filthy and funny podcast with extraordinary comedians who give way too much information about their personal lives and sex lives. And again, it's the much needed escapism. I'm able to provide information and the sad stuff and then the escapism. So I hope people listen to it because it is just an amazing vacation for your mind. That was great.

It's purely silly. We need comedy. Yeah.

Comedy is one of the best medicines, you know?

100% saved my life. Yeah, that's great. Okay, so both those shows, Bad Dates, Ai Weiwei, I'm inspired. I want to hear these final few questions. Before I ask the final two questions, I want to acknowledge you, Jamila, for, again, the journey transformation. The, the, it's really more not a transformation, more the awareness that you have about yourself and who you've been, where you're at now or where you're going. And I really just love that you have that awareness for you, that you've been on a healing Journey, that you're able to see things from a different perspective. And for me, that's really inspiring. I think it's inspiring when I can do that and anyone can do that. So I'm inspired by the journey you're on and it's really cool to see you right now in this space. Because most importantly, you're happy and you're healthy. And that's for me really inspired to.

See you in a space like that. It also speaking of cancel culture goes to show that like when people criticize you, some good can come from it. Even if I didn't always make a public notes apology statement about everything, I was listening. I was listening when people pulled me out. And so I make those tweaks sometimes privately. Because sometimes it's easier to make change privately. And we need to become aware that it's okay to have a learning journey privately. You do not have to share every single thing. I'm not going to have a pap smear on my live IG. I need to look after my brain privately with space and mess.

You don't need an opinion from every person on everything you do.

And everyone doesn't have to be privy to every single thing about all of our lives. It's a very big misconception about how we're supposed to conduct ourselves because of how much some people choose to share on social media. But I'm listening and I'm changing. But also the people who spoke to me constructively were the ones who got in. And the people who almost pushed me over the edge and killed me or made me so angry that I didn't want to fight for anyone and give up with the people who abused me. I didn't need to be sent death threats or rape threats. or threats that I'm going to be ostracized or that people are going to boycott me or call for me to be fired. I didn't need that to change. The people who spoke to me kindly and with peace and with the best of intention, who had the, who believed in me to change, are the ones who changed me. So criticism can be fantastic. I'm a product of that criticism. But from love.

Conscious criticism.

Those are the people that helped me. the other people did nothing but caused me stress and almost made me give up on everything, including my own life.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus Channel exclusively on Apple podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter and Now it's time to go out there and do something great.