We Researched 10,000 Millionaires: How They Built Their Wealth | George Kamel

Hey, my friend. Thank you so much for being here. I want to ask you for a quick request before we get started with today's episode. Apple decided to shake things up a bit, and you may no longer be following the School of Greatness, but luckily there's an easy fix. So really quick, if you can double check for me that you're not missing out on greatness. Just go to your app on Apple podcast and hit follow on the top right hand corner of the School of Greatness show page on Apple podcast. Once you click the follow button on the top right corner, you're all set to get updated with the latest and greatest here from the School of Greatness. And if you haven't already, make sure to leave a quick review while you're there. Your thoughts matter to me. I read all of the reviews, and I'm so grateful that you're here. Thanks so much. Now let's jump into this episode.

When it comes to stress, I think a lot of stress is based on fear of the unknown. And when you have headlines and economic uncertainty and what's the president going to do or not going to do, and they're going to forgive student loans. And I have so much peace when it comes to personal finances because I ignore all of the noise and I only focus on what I can control.

Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin. Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring and hilarious George Camil in the house. Good to see you.

So good, man. It's an honor to be here. I'm a longtime fan. And I feel like I'm inside of-- you-'re here, man.

You're here, man. We made it in the simulation. We made it, man. You are a personal finance expert and also a Ramsey, Dave Ramsey, personality. And you're, you know, the show's number one in the world right now, so congratulations.

Thank you. Thank you to everyone who's listening who made it happen.

I have very little to do with it. It's amazing, man. You've got this new book, which I'm excited about. I've been diving in. I'm really excited to dive into it with the audience. Breaking Free from Broke: the Ultimate Guide to More Money and Less Stress. Here's a question for you to get started. This is what I read about you. You went from a negative net worth to millionaire status in under a decade. And I'm curious to start this off, what would be the top five habits of millionaires that you studied and also you've applied in order to get that status?

Ooh, that's a great question. So we did the largest study of millionaires ever done in North America, and I think there's a lot of overlap in the habits that we talk about with the Ramsey Baby Steps and what we found with millionaires. So it was encouraging because it just gave us some great confidence in the Ramsey plan to go like, this works. Every time you work it, it works, whether you make 40,000 or 400,000. And so one of those habits is living on less than you make. If you can't do that, this is not for you. If you make 40,000 and you spend 60,000 a year, that's a problem. The other one we found is like.

Why do people feel the need to spend more than they actually make?

I think at the root of it, it's discontentment. We're not content with what we have. It's never enough. And thanks to debt, you're able to do that. Like before debt existed, you couldn't spend more than you made. It was physically impossible. And all of a sudden with the advent of debt, and I talk about the history of each piece of the puzzle here, like where did credit cards come from? Where did auto loans originate? What about student loans? How did this all happen? And most of it was good intentions that turned into huge profits for companies and corporations going like, We can screw a lot of people over and make a lot of money from interest if we convince them they need that newer car. And look at colleges, what do they do? They raise prices because you can get as much student loans as you want. Sally Mae's happy to give you the monopoly money, so colleges go, Let's double the price. People will pay for it. And so because of that, people just have been spending more than they made for a long time now. and putting it on the tab and going, I'll worry about that later.

Okay. What's the second habit?

The second habit is practicing delayed gratification. That's a discipline that we have lost in an instant gratification culture.

Right.

We have instant access 24/7 all the time in the palm of our hand, two-hour shipping. And that has caused our brains to just get fried where we're like, I can't wait a week. I can't wait 10 years to build wealth.

I need this now.

I need it now. And we found millionaires are okay with the long term. They're playing the long game and it's a very different mentality to have.

They don't need it right now. They can say, I'm gonna put 10% or 5% or a certain amount of dollar amount every month away automatically that I don't need to buy something with this. It's gonna go to my future self.

Yeah, or I'm gonna pay cash for that car. That means putting a thousand bucks away for 24 months to save up for a $24,000 car.

You know what's interesting? When I moved to, my dad always had used cars until he started to make some real money. then he then he bought a new car, right? But it wasn't for many, many years. He like had that car until he wrote it to the to the last, I guess, mile. And when I moved to LA, I had a million dollars in my account already. By the time I moved to LA, I don't know, 12 years ago, I had built this marketing company up before the podcast. I wasn't like mega millionaire, but I had a million dollars in the account of net worth, right? And I came here and everyone had these flashy cars and I was like, I just don't feel the need to try to live up to some standard in Los Angeles. And I got this car for $4,000 that I drove for the first five years that I lived here. And the only reason I got a new car was really for like a tax break into like, you know, write off on taxes. But this was a 1997 year car.

Wow.

And I drove it around for five years happy. It didn't have Bluetooth. It didn't have like, it had a CD player and I'm like, that's all you need? That's all I needed. And the radio didn't work. But it was like, I don't need.

Some fancy car to feel like... Well, you weren't trying to flex. I wasn't trying to flex.

You were focused on what was ahead of you instead of who the people around you. Exactly. And it was good enough. It got me around. Eventually I was like, okay, it's time to upgrade, but not because I felt like I needed to impress, but because I wanted it.

It wasn't a flex. Yeah, exactly. But that's the third habit right there. We found millionaires, they drive four-year-old cars on average, and they're all used.

Really?

You would think like millionaires, well, they can afford the new car, they can do it, but they don't because they understand that cars are a depreciating asset. Every time you get in that car, it's just going down in value. And when you compound that with a car payment, you're paying interest on something going down in value. It's about the dumbest thing you can do. And I think it's one of the biggest wealth killers today. So that's definitely the third habit.

Okay. Getting a used car or what would be the best?

They drive used cars, and that's part of delayed gratification. It all stems from living on less than you make and delayed gratification.

Okay.

And what's the fourth one? The most interesting one to me was that 97% of millionaires in the study believe they control their financial destiny. That was a, I was shocked they even put that question in the study, but it was such an empowering one because it's less about money and it's more about belief. And what the limiting beliefs we have about like, well, I didn't grow up with money. Well, my parents made money mistakes. No, you don't understand. I got baggage, man. I made too many mistakes with zeros on the end. And too many people live their life with that Eeyore mentality. But 97% said, I believe I have a sense of control and autonomy and agency over what happens with my money.

This was a question from our YouTube community. We did a poll, and this was the number one thing they wanted me to ask you. What's the one piece of advice you would give someone feeling completely overwhelmed by their financial situation and seeking a way out of that?

I'm gonna go with, in the conclusion of my book, I end with a very non-financial answer and I think it's the right answer for someone like this. And it's the, there's this gap between cynicism and hope. And I think people have lost hope in America today when it comes to finances. They've resigned themselves to whether I got myself in this mess or it's someone else's fault or whatever's happening to me or the inflation, I believe both are a choice. Like hope is a choice. And for me, it was the hardest choice. 'Cause I was the guy who was cynical. When I graduated college, I was 23, 40 grand in consumer debt, and I was angry at the world. I felt lied to 'cause I was like, I followed this path, I got good grades, I got the degree, Where's my wonderful life? Instead, I'm out here trying to get cash back and get enough SkyMiles to go home for Christmas, wondering how I'm going to achieve my financial goals. And so that, to me, I think that's the feeling a lot of people have is this pit of the stomach, lump in the throat, hopelessness, and cynicism becomes the easier choice. It's easier to complain and just go like, Someone's got to fix my life.

And blame people, systems, or whatever.

Yeah. So I think it starts with, you know, while, yes, we got to do it. We got to get on a budget. We got to make sacrifices. We got to get rid of this debt using the debt snowball, get the emergency fund. Those are the real tactical steps. But I think it starts with an emotional place where we go, all right, we cried it out, then we wake up and we're like, we got to go to work. And so the question is, the gap between financial stress and financial peace is littered with traps and myths and distractions and noise and whole life insurance bros trying to sell you on some tax free wealth strategy. And so what you have to do if that's you is go like I'm cutting out all the noise and inputs. I'm going to follow a proven plan, do one thing at a time with focus intensity and go all in. And if listen, if you get out of debt and follow the Ramsey plan and you hate it, you can always go back into debt. The companies will always be ready to hand you more Monopoly money to play with. But I've rarely seen that happen. When people get out of debt, the sacrifice they make to get out in 18 to 24 months, that's the average it takes to get out. They never go back. They go, I touched the hot stove, done with that life. I got goals. I'm not trying to pay lenders for the rest of my life. I'm trying to leave a legacy. I want to have generational impact. And so those are the people that inspire me are the ones that they start there, but it doesn't end there. And unfortunately, too many of us are willing to live in mediocrity for 30 years instead of sacrificing for three to have freedom for the next 27. But it's a very different Lifestyle. And so it takes transformation and you know how difficult that is. You talk about that a lot on this show.

Yeah. Delayed gratification is one of those key things. A lot of people are willing to sacrifice three years of delayed gratification and not having all the extra things that their friends are doing and not going out every weekend or not going on that trip that they wanted to go on for three years.

You're not getting that house. You're not driving that car.

Yeah, man.

But that's hard.

If you can, if you can stay committed for a few years, of sacrifice and find joy in the small and then big wins and find joy in doing things for free or just playing board games with friends or being creative with your time as opposed to feeling like you always need to spend to enjoy your time. I think you'll, you'll live a much better life. That's the heart of all this. It's, it's discontentment and FOMO.

Right. It's fear of missing out. What I talk about in the book is Jomo. It's the joy of missing out. Yeah, it's the joy of going like, Dude, I don't care about all that. I'm running my own race. And the problem with running other people's race is that there is no finish line. Like when you're trying to keep up with someone else, well, they have a whole different life and they have different goals. And so why are you trying to keep up with these people that you don't really care about at all? Right. Right. And so if you really have strong friends in your corner, they're gonna be cheering you on and going like, dude, I totally get it. I'll come over tonight. I'll bring a pizza. We'll hang. We don't have to go out to the bar, you know what I mean? And so that takes a level of sacrifice, especially when you're young. Because when you're young, it's all about like, these are the best years of my life. I can't skip that vacation. But man, just two years out of the next 40, if you can sacrifice, it changes everything. It changes the trajectory of your life. So that's what I hope people are willing to do at the end of this.

How does someone create that belief that they can have control over their money?

I think it starts with dealing with their past. I mean, our friend Dr. John Delony has a book called Own youn Past, Change youe Future. And you have to own the shame and the guilt and the baggage and the mistakes and the hurt and the financial trauma and your parents divorced and it was money stress and money fights and you took on all this debt and so who are you to ever build wealth and become debt free? You have to grapple with that and go like, that's not who I am. those are things that happened and yes, they may have happened to me, but that's not gonna control my destiny. And so it starts with that, realizing, look, this is my past, that's fine, that's not where I'm headed. And so we always say the windshield is bigger than the rearview mirror for a reason. So if you can start looking ahead going, regardless and in spite of all of that, I am going to change my family tree. That's what we call it. Build generational wealth, break the cycles and chains that have come before me, Those people are the ones that inspire me every day when they call the show. And they didn't come from money, they didn't come from trust funds. They came from broken homes and little incomes and they overcame. Those are the heroes.

Yeah, I think I saw someone earlier this week, a woman come on the show, say she got like 300,000 in debt in like 18 months or something on your show. And maybe it was 300,000, maybe it was 170,000, I think it was, that she got out of debt in 18 months. and the amount of peace that she had in her facial expression and her body language around being debt free from these, I guess, bad debts really looked empowering on what she was capable of doing now without that debt weighing her down. And I'm curious, before we get into the next, the fifth habit, how does someone develop that that belief that they can pay down their debts if it seems so daunting and so overwhelming.

Realizing that you're not alone, I think, is a really important step. Too many people feel like, well, my situation's different and I'm unique and I'm special and they don't get it. But then I meet people every day and I get in a Financial Peace University class and there's all these other people who made money mistakes and I go, oh, I'm not alone. I'm not the only idiot out there. I'm not the only average George out there. That to me is encouraging because it tells me that this path is something that other people have done before me that will come after me and that I can do this too. And so I think it's important to get other people around you and that might mean cutting out some toxic friends who are not trying to be on that journey.

Sure.

Finding people who aren't trying to live on less than they make. That's an important piece. And the other piece is feeling progress. And that's why I think those baby steps are so important. When you start with just, hey, a thousand bucks, can you get a thousand bucks? Most of us would say, yeah, I can sell some stuff. I can get the second job. I can, you know, not eat out this month. Now it's like, all right, let's attack that consumer debt. Debt snowball, smallest to largest. Let's just attack the small debt. Can we just do that one thing at a time? We're not saving, we're not investing. We're just gonna do one thing at a time. And that to me is what builds that hope and builds that progress and momentum and keeps you motivated on the journey.

You have to have a little win.

Early on or else you give up.

Yeah, that's good. And what about the fifth habit?

Ooh, the fifth habit is so boring and unsexy that it will upset you, but it is getting on the budget. It's making a plan. And what I found was that budgets are not for broke people, budgets are not for wealthy people, budgets are for intentional people. That was a game changer for me, 'cause I always thought like, we have to be a super nerd and love Excel, or you have to be like really broke, 'cause you think budget, you think this person's real frugal and stingy and cheap. and they can't spend anything. You say, I'm on a budget, that means I can't go out with the friends. But to me, it's just putting a plan on paper and looking at reality going, my income is 5,000, I need to spend, I'm going to make a plan for every single dollar, because otherwise what happens? Dollars float away. You go, where do, where, oh my gosh, we spent 600 bucks eating out this month, door dashing a burrito. You know, all of that unintentional spending.

And impulse leads to you not hitting financial goals. Yeah. So it's not, it's conscious spending habits. It's being aware of where you're spending your money. There was a quote in here, let me see this quote real quick. I saw this based on budgeting.

Yeah, I had a whole chapter on called Budgeting is Freedom. That's the first one in the Breaking Free section to help people.

And the quote on that is from John Maxwell. He said, A budget is telling your money where to go instead of wondering where it went. And I think a lot of people aren't conscious about their spending habits and they're not intentional about where they want their money to go. They buy things based on impulse and based on pleasure and based on desire. And then they realize like, oh, I don't have as much money as I thought I had because they're not intentional about it. How often should we be looking at all of our accounts? Should this be a daily thing? Should it be monthly? Is it too, is it Is there too much to look at it where it's an obsession and you're over obsessing versus like a natural flow?

What do you think? Yeah, that's a great question. Well, we tell people to make a budget every month. And so actually creating the budget on paper before the next month begins is key. So that will happen one time. And if you've got a spouse, you need to do that together with a quick budget meeting. This is not a four hour, you know, Lord of the Rings saga here. This is going, Hey, what's going on this month? Hey, we got that birthday party. We got to get that gift for this thing. Remember we have that vacation coming up, let's start saving. And so that's all it is. But as far as tracking your transactions, 'cause that's a really important part of the budget, people forget to do. Looks great on paper, and then we just spend the rest of the month and hope. Fingers crossed we have money in the account at the end of the month and don't overdraft. That's most people. But tracking your transactions is a key, and you wanna do that once every day or other day. And again, if you do it once or every other day, it's like cleaning your room. You don't ever have to clean your room if you just tidy up real quick. And so with every dollar, our budgeting app, this is as easy as dragging the transaction like Amazon, drag it up to shopping, we're done. And so when you do that, you can actually see, do we have any money left for XYZ or hey, we're over budget, we got to figure something out, we got to sacrifice, we got to cut this category here. What most people do is just overspend in four different categories and they go, we're a thousand bucks over and we put it on the credit card. We'll figure it out next month. And that's why it's important to not only do a budget, but to use your own money. And I only have a, I have a one debit card and I use cash occasionally. That's it. My life is very simple in that way. And I have my business, my Ramsey Business debit card as well.

What do you say to people that say, you know, well, I love having a credit card because it allows me to get points for flights or, you know, whatever it might be for other perks. and if I'm tracking it just like I would a debit card, then I'm missing out on all these other perks.

Well, I found the people who actually could stand to benefit and actually have any meaningful rewards make enough money and spend enough that they don't need the rewards. So it's kind of hilarious at that point to be like, if you make $150,000, the $1,000 in rewards is not changing your life whatsoever. And the mental calories you're spending to play the game and maximize is not worth your time. And so I break down, in chapter three on credit cards, I break down eight different character archetypes that I found with credit cards. And so there was the rewards redeemer, there's the world traveler, the person's like, I gotta have my airline miles. And I break down, you gotta spend $50,000 in order to get your $250 flight. But you don't even know that, 'cause what do they give you? Points and miles. What is a hundred thousand miles? We don't know anymore. The credit card companies wanna confuse us. And I found this out from an ex-Capital One employee. She told me verbatim that these credit card companies run 10,000 experiments a year on consumers and A/B test them to go, if we switch it from cash back to points, it triggers something different in their brain. It's like Chuck E. Cheese. Wow. You're like, I don't know what 100,000.

Points is, but it feels like a lot.

Let's sign up for the bonus. It's like two candy bars. Yeah. Exactly. So most people, they're stepping over a dollar to hopefully pick up a quarter. And the average credit card interest rate now is 22% APR.

Wow.

But we're doing all this in hopes of getting 2% cash back. You're like, is it worth spending 100 bucks to get two bucks? What they tell me is, well, I'm not spending any differently than if it was my own money. I'm like, you want to bet? Here's $1,000 cash of your own money. Go hand over $1,000 and see the emotional pain it causes. And so adding friction back into our life will actually help us spend less. And that's what happens when you use cash, especially, But even a debit card, your brain knows this is coming right at us. It's Lewis's money right now. And so in the book, the thesis of that chapter is when it hurts, when it hurts less, it costs more. When we remove the friction, you're going to spend more. And I quote MIT studies using fMRI technology on the brain, and they're seeing when people swipe that credit card, it releases the brakes on spending and hits the accelerator. Really? And so it's like both and. And every study shows you spend more when you swipe that card. And so I try to hit every single objection here, because we've heard so much in the Ramsey Show. What if I paid the perfect spender is the first one in there? I never pay a dime in interest.

What's wrong with using my credit card?

You know, all of those expenses. Pay it off every month, all the different things. Yeah, but even then, think about it. You could have zero bucks in the bank at the end of that month. You're not building wealth just because you have a zero credit card balance.

I want people to build wealth. Sure. Not just play the game perfectly of Capital One. Right. And if it's coming out of a debit card, you'd be much more conscious of like, do I really need this thing? Or is this whatever I'm gonna buy right now, is it really gonna be the thing that I want right now? I'm gonna make me happy?

Or is it just a rotating cashback? So when you tell me I spend just like I would, and like, no, you're going out to eat 'cause you get 5% this month on restaurants. Right. Like they know what they're doing. It's always on travel and restaurants. It's never, hey, pay your utility bills and we'll give you 5% cashback. It's never the boring stuff. It's the frivolous spending. Sure. So there's so much in there that was fascinating, especially the Fed Reserve study that shows that $15 billion moves from the poor, uneducated to the wealthy or educated through credit card rewards. And so when people tell me, well, George, I'm not like who's benefiting from this? Like, I'm not hurting anyone by doing this. Like, technically, I'm not this is not I'm not an immoral high horse. But the study shows that the poorest, most uneducated people is who's paying for your flight. Wow. who's paying for your cash back? And to me, that's not a system I wanna be a part of if I can opt out of it by using my own money.

What do you think is the number one thing about money that stresses them out the most? The idea of money. Is it the debt of money? Is it having lots of money? Is it relationships and money? Is it people's opinions about your money? What is the number one thing about money that stresses people out the most?

When it comes to stress, I think a lot of stress is based on fear of the unknown. And when you have headlines and economic uncertainty and what's the president going to do or not going to do, and are they going to forgive student loans? And I have so much peace when it comes to personal finances because I ignore all of the noise and I only focus on what I can control. When you start pointing fingers at, well, what are we going to do about inflation? The cost of eggs and do Congress has got to get their act together and the Fed, they keep messing with these interest rates and the guy in the White House is to blame. All of that is, we can always complain about that for a moment, but at the end of the day, we got bills to pay, we got goals to achieve. And so I go through all of those excuses in chapter one to tell people like, hey, we can point fingers and enjoy it, and that's cathartic. But at the end of the day, what you can control is the guy in the mirror and how he spends his money and how she saves her money. And to me, that at first is kind of like, okay, I can control me, whoop, whoop. But it's so empowering when you realize, oh, if I'm the problem, I'm the solution. This is amazing. And so I think that stress comes from the fear of the unknown and what could happen and what if the stock market tanks. But when you have no debt, no lenders to pay, you have a fully funded emergency fund, and you've got wealth being built for the future, and you're thinking long term, you're not worried about what happens.

Right, because you've got your plan and.

You'Re sticking to it. Exactly. I'm so confident in my plan, and it's not because I'm some multi-millionaire, It's because I'm content with where I'm at. I don't need another million dollars tomorrow.

You don't need a new watch, you don't need a new car, you don't need to go on five extra trips that you see other people doing. You don't need to overspend because you have financial peace.

And the simpler you can create, the simpler life you can create, the better off you're gonna be. Because the more stuff you own, the more it kind of owns you. The more complicated life gets. And so, you know, I was just hanging out with the minimalists and we were talking about all of this stuff because We're seeing anxiety stems from the stuff around us and the less clutter in our life emotionally, physically, financially, the better off we are. And I've never seen someone debt free who's like, my life is worse now that I have no debt. Not once. They always are levitating because they just have a peace about them because they're not keeping their bodies not keeping the score anymore of the debt that they owe.

Do you think people have more shame around being in debt? or more shame today about having an abundance of money?

Oh, like is there a shame and like, well, I don't want to, because other people are hurting.

Yeah, yeah, I've got.

I have wealth.

I figured out how to like take responsibility for my life and, you know, pay off the debts and then start building wealth and I've actually done it now. I spent 10, 20, 30 years of actually creating something of value and I've been smart with my money. Now I have it. which used to be like celebrated. Yeah. You know, it's like, but now it's like, nice wealth. Yeah. So do you feel like people have more shame around being in debt and broke and a victim that they don't have control of their life financially or more shame about being rich?

Well, in a culture where debt has become celebrated, I think we've lost a level of shame that we ought to have. Like back in our grandparents' days, it was not okay to owe people money. It was a goal to not owe people money. Now there's TikToks about people going, I'm $15 million in debt and I'm proud of it and you should be $15 million in debt too. And the people who have wealth and have earned it with integrity are going like, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings because everyone's upset. And at the heart of it is, I don't think it's fair that Lewis has more than me. And it's this comparison culture and mentality of, if he has something I don't, that's not fair. and it goes into basically socialist anarchy at that point. And so the best thing we can do, whether you, we have people with all the baby steps and they're whispering to us like, Hey, we're millionaires. Right, right.

They're not like, whistling it.

They're not like shouting from the rooftops. But we live in such a weird world at Ramsey where we're celebrating people paying off debt, we're asking about income all day long. And so there's less shame in our.

Ramsey bubble, but it's weird that we whisper that Why do you think there's so much shame for people that have, you know, 100 grand or a million dollars of net worth where they can't speak about it to their friends and family openly without feeling judged, attacked, having handouts everywhere where people now, now you got to pay off my debts. Is that what it is that people are just shaming people that have taken responsibility for their money?

The heart behind it is there's wisdom to it. You know, me telling a random person or my friend like, hey, bro, I got a million bucks. It's out of context and it's going to make them feel small and less than. And so I think the heart of it is good, it's good intentions. And there's a time and a place to talk about it. The Ramsey Show is one of them. We love celebrating people. But going down the street being like, I'm a millionaire, what are you guys doing? It's hard. And so even with this book, I don't brag that I'm a millionaire. I tell people, I'm the average George. If I can go from broke to millionaire, you can too. So it's never a flex on my part. All it is is I want to empower other people that I didn't come from money. I am a W2 employee. I didn't start my own business. I'm not a self-made entrepreneur. I'm a guy who just followed a simple plan and believes that anyone can become a millionaire in America today. And so I talk about money so that we don't have to talk about money. It's like, let's take the shame out of it and let's just make it fun and conversational. And it's not about a flex.

It's about encouraging and empowering each other. Wow. So you're telling me you can work somewhere for a decade, not start your own business, not be hustling on the side constantly and spending all your time trying to earn more constantly and you could get to millionaire status. Is that what you're telling me? It's possible.

It's possible. I think it looks different for a lot of people. A part of my wealth building was my spouse, Whitney. I met her at Ramsey and we are net worth millionaires together as a household and people are always like, well that doesn't count. 'Cause really you have to take half of that 'cause what if you divorce? I'm like, that's such a weird, that's like saying like, what if the stock market goes to zero? You're not a millionaire anymore. I'm like, you,'re right, I wouldn't be. But I think a spouse is one of the most powerful wealth building tools. Really? It's underrated. Tell me why. Because when my wife and I met, we were so aligned, obviously. We both worked at Ramsey, we drank the Kool-Aid, and it was good. And we were like, we started off our marriage debt free. I had paid off my consumer debt at that point. She was much smarter than me, much better looking, much better at money management. And so like, it's a life hack to start your marriage off debt free already investing for the future, having the emergency fund, getting into a home. And we ended up paying off that home in 26 months because we were on the same page, got a modest home that was within our means, and we both had the goal of like, what would it be like to not have a mortgage payment in our early 30s? What could we do? How could we give? What options would we have? And that led us down the path of paying off the house. That house appreciates in value over time. We've been investing 15% that whole time into our Roth 401 s at Ramsey, boring investing stuff. And all of a sudden you look up at your net worth calculation and you're like, the equity in our home and in retirement accounts, we're millionaires. And so I don't say that to minimize the sacrifice that we made and the side hustles that I did and Us getting promoted over the years, over a decade, it may take people 15 years or 20 years. It may take dual income, you know, we had dual income, no kids at the time. We got two French Bulldogs, which was a real net worth.

Oh, that's, that's a couple hundred thousand dollars.

That's a train, that bank account. Hell yeah. We just had a little girl four months ago, and I promise you, the dogs are still more expensive than a baby. Congrats, man. Thank you. So all of that together, I say that to go, It may not look the same for everyone. So this is not a, hey, if I can't do it in 10 years, I'm a failure. But I think people imagine, well, it's going to take me 35 years to build wealth. It really doesn't take that long when you get intentional and focused and follow the Ramsey baby steps. Average person following the baby steps pays off their home in seven years. Wow. That's not a long time. If you're 22, it feels like an eternity. Yes. But you're going to be seven years older. So where do you want to be?

Time is going to pass. You want to be debt free or not? Right. What do you think is the three biggest questions everyone should ask before they get married?

Ooh. This is a good one. I was just on Chris Harrison from the Bachelor. So I was talking to him and his wife about this and like, what questions to ask when you're dating someone, when to bring all this up. But I think one of the best questions to ask is not about, you know, you don't wanna ask about, hey, how much debt do you have on the first date? what's your income? Like, what's your life plan? What you want to ask is, what are your views around debt? Just what are your values when it comes to building wealth? That, to me, says a whole lot more about a person than their current status. And so I'm never going to be like, you better find someone who's debt free, who's a mil, you know, it's not about that. It's about where are they trying to go? Because if they're trying to hang on to debt and they're going to continue to spend more than they make, Probably not someone I want to be with long term.

Yeah, if they've got seven credit cards and they're in a ton of debt, that may not be the, and they think that's good, that may not be a sign of alignment, of financial freedom in the future.

Exactly, and that's going to hurt, that's only going to cause resentment. We see that one of the number one causes of divorce in America today is money fights and money problems. And so if you can avoid that on the front end, which I think you can, by asking some good questions like, what are your values around money? What was it like growing up in your house? Was money talked about? I think that's a really interesting question because it says a lot about how you think about money and your paradigm around money. Is money something that you see as an obstacle versus a tool? Are you wanting to be generous? Are you a saver or a spender? These are fun, light-hearted questions that aren't digging and like prodding on the first date. Now, as you get into the relationship, you can start to ask about you know, debt levels and like, could you have a plan to pay this off? And but doing it in an encouraging way is very, is the key. You don't want to come at them attacking.

Here's another question. Let's say that you've been, you're in your late 20s, early 30s, and you've been dating for a couple of years, and you've, you've really built this incredible connection, and you've learned to like each other and love each other, and you're excited to get married. But then you start to have these challenging conversations, you start to ask some of these things. Maybe you were too timid, you didn't want to ask about it because life was just good. And now it's into asking about debt, money values, vision around money, all these different things. And you realize you're completely opposite spectrums around values and money. Do you think love is enough to keep a marriage going without a lot of conflict? Or if your complete opposites around views on money, Do you think that is going to cause more pain and friction than the love will keep you together?

That's a great question.

Based on all the case studies you've seen come through in the Ramsey Show and your experience and people you know, what do you think?

I think there's a good distinction to make between you don't need to have two savers in a relationship to make it work. You can have the free spirit spender and you can have the nerd saver who loves to do the budget. You can have a long healthy marriage that way. But if you have someone who's saying, I want to hang on to debt, I want to continue to spend more than we make, I don't care, YOLO, forget about the future, and this other person who has, you know, a real fear about like, we're going to be screwed, we're never going to be able to retire, eventually that's going to cause enough strife in the relationship that either you shut down and brush it all under the rug and there's a lot of resentment, or it ends up in divorce. Wow. And that's what we've seen is there's financial infidelity.

And one of the- what is financial infidelity?

Well, it's not cheating on your spouse, but it's not communicating honestly about finances. This is when you have that other account over here, and we bought this thing and I didn't tell you about it because of fear or because I knew what they would say if I bought this thing. And what that does is you lose trust, and relationships are entirely built on trust. And money is a really emotional piece of that trust puzzle, and it's hard to rebuild trust. Really easy to break. All it takes is one purchase without the spouse knowing. And we've seen this time and time again on the Ramsey Show where one spouse spends over here, the other spouse didn't know about it, and they're calling in going, what do I do? How do I repair this relationship? And it's less of a financial question at that point. You know, we know what to do financially, but it's how do we move.

Forward in the relationship that's really tough. How do you repair a relationship if.

There'S been financial infidelity? Well, counseling is always a start and more open, honest communication together over a long period of time.

Yeah.

A trust is one of those things where I have to see a pattern of trustworthiness. And that takes a long time. Sometimes it can take years to fully repair that.

Wow.

Because it's always in the back of that person's mind. It could happen anytime now. Just like with a cheater, like they could cheat again. We don't truly know. And so what that looks like is making that monthly budget together, combining bank accounts for transparency. That's one of the biggest things I've seen today is people are so against combining bank accounts. I'm like, you share a bed, you share DNA, you have a baby together, but you can't share a bank account? This is crazy. So they live like roommates, Venmoing each other back and forth, splitting expenses and hairs, and then wondering why they don't have a great marriage. Interesting. So the best couples I know have full transparency and communication around money, they have combined bank accounts, and they still have their independence. Lewis has his line item in the budget for fun money. It's not about control on one person's part of going, you can't spend that way. It's, we agreed, Lewis has $500 to spend on shoes this month. Right, right. And she has $600, 'cause that's how it should be. You know, and maybe-- Right, right. And self-care in there.

Right, and well maybe they have like separate bank account for personal and then like a shared combined account or something like that.

Are you saying all accounts should be shared? My wife and I have one shared checking account. And it works the same, 'cause when you think about a line item in the budget, that's really telling the money where it's gonna go. Right, right. And so setting it to the personal accounts, that's fine. I think it can create a layer of financial infidelity because we don't know, wait, Lewis had all this money, I've seen this happen where they go, I didn't know you had all that money saved up in there. And here's what we've seen, they go, well, that's her debt to pay off. She's gonna do that out of her own money in her own account. And so what happens is you lose the we when it comes to relationships and money and it becomes, yeah, but that's her mistake. She's gonna pay that off. And nothing builds a marriage like going, that's her thing to deal with. Like, you gotta be in this together. Wow. And so that's a hard thing too. One person brings in a whole bunch of debt to the relationship and you get married. Well, Louis has been saving $100,000 in a savings account. She comes in with $100,000 and we go, that savings account for that house just turned into the payoff her debt fund.

Oh man. And that hurts? That's gotta create some resentment for people, right? 100%. So how do you, I mean, that's why you gotta choose wisely, I guess. That's part of it. Or know like, okay, I'm choosing this knowing my money is gonna support this debt. or this person's past decision making, right, that got her in this position.

You're taking that whole person on in marriage. Not just the good parts you like.

You gotta accept them. That's one of the reasons, you know, you gotta, most people hope for like potential for that they're gonna change, but you gotta accept who they are when you're getting into a relationship. That's a whole nother conversation around this.

Oh, yeah. But that's a hard part that I totally understand. Because one person worked really hard to save up this money and they were diligent and disciplined and one person made this financial mistake probably before marriage happened. And they're still grappling with the reality of student loans and the car loan. And it hurts. But is there an amount of debt? One pile.

Is there an amount of debt where love is not enough? That one person has a million dollars in debt. Yeah, someone who's got so much medical school debt. Yeah, they're 400 grand from their doctor school or whatever it is. Then they made a, you know, poor purchase or try to invest in something and went bankrupt with it, whatever it is. But man, you've got a connection, you've got an intimacy, you've got a shared two years of experiences and a love that feels really strong. And then you learn about four or 500 grand in debt. Is love strong enough to make a relationship last long term with that much debt from one person?

I do think love can overcome, but I don't think it's like a squishy hallmark feeling. I think it's a, there is such a strong partnership of like, We're gonna get through this together. And my friend Jade Warshaw, Ramsey personality, she's living proof of that. Her husband and they had almost half a million dollars in consumer debt. Really? And they paid it all off over seven years.

Oh, was this before they got married or together they got married?

So once they got married, they looked at all their debts and combined. They were both messy. They were both a mess.

Wow.

But to me, it wasn't just this like level overcome. It was an alignment in our goals and where we're headed and our new values and our new identities of who we wanted to become.

See, they both were at fault of their debts.

It wasn't like one person was doing all the work. One person comes in with half a million, the other person is like, Zero. I'm doing great. Yeah. That's a much harder thing. You have to overcome it, but you also have to realize marriage is long term. So you got to think about 30 years from now. Are we really going to look back and go, well, that 500,000 really set us back?

Maybe that's seven years of your life that you've got to make different decisions. You can't go take a trip, you can't live a life that you would dream of, that dream has to shift. Oh yeah. So there's a lot of like- There's.

A lot to overcome. Your life looks different.

Yeah, but you make a decision for one person that hopefully they'll get out of this with you, right? It's like, hopefully they'll make better decisions, but what if they don't? What if they haven't broken the habit? What if they haven't healed their pain that's gotten them into this place, all these different things.

That's true. I mean, debt, it can hurt a relationship for sure. I've also seen it where it strengthens it because it causes them to Communicate on a different level.

We've come together.

We've seen the debt free journey actually heal marriages. It's inspiring. Really? Where they were on the brink of divorce, they go through Financial Peace University, they finally get aligned about they're running the same direction, maybe for the first time, and all of a sudden at the end they're like, well, what did all that debt free stuff do? It helped us communicate better, get aligned, have the same vision, and what that does is create a better marriage. And so I think there's a beautiful part that is underpinning all this financial stuff we do that creates transformation in other areas of life. We've seen people lose 100 pounds while on the debt free journey because transformation begets transformation.

Right. It's not just one area. It's like you have to take inventory and stock of every area of life and start being disciplined and have better habits and all these different things.

It goes back to 97% believe they control their financial destiny. Once you realize you have a sense of agency and autonomy over your life, you're like, what else can't I do? Tell me I can't go run that marathon or lose 100 pounds or switch career paths. It's like an invincible feeling that is.

That'S really the empowerment and inspiration behind the Ramsey Show. You build that momentum. What do you think is the thing that keeps people in a victim mentality the most around money?

So one of my core beliefs, and I talk about it in the book, is that it's not all your fault, but it's your responsibility. And one of the biggest keys to staying in this victim mentality, and I understand people had some real things happen to them, And so I don't want to minimize the fact that there's people who are, have been hurt and there's been trauma and life has really happened to them. But the key is they realize it's my responsibility to move forward. I can't wait for someone else to come fix all of this. That's what I think keeps people in the victim mentality, whether it's student loan forgiveness. That's just one area. It's easy to point at and go like, are you gonna wait and hope that the next person running for office actually comes through with the promise to get your vote, or you can do the hard work and work that side job and not eat out in order to create margin to pay off the debt yourself. And that to me is the single variant of a victor or a victim is am I in control? Yes, it's not all my fault, but it's my responsibility. Not by my hand, but it's in my lap. What am I gonna do? And those are the heroes we celebrate, the ones that in spite of all that go, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna freaking take down Goliath. I don't care, nothing's gonna stop me. Those are the ones we want to root for.

Yeah. If someone's got, if someone's making around 70,000 to $120,000 a year in that range and they feel overwhelmed with money, what is the root of that overwhelm? If they're in that 70,000 to 120,000 range, is it they're overspending? Is it, they don't feel like they're keeping up with their friends. What do you think is that cause of stress and anxiety around money in that range?

Well, the average household income in America is about 71 grand. And so if you're making 71 grand, you're doing pretty well. And if you're making 70 to 120 in most areas, right? Like LA 120 is very different from an Idaho 120. And so a lot of it is cost of living.

Sure.

But a lot of it stems from lifestyle creep. you know, very rarely do we start making 120. We get there over time and you would think, well, if I just made more money, I could solve all this. I'd get rid of the debt. I'd be doing so well. But what happens is you just go, I can afford a little more payment and I could afford a little nicer car. We can get in that house. We can afford the mortgage. We can stomach it. So over time, you just start collecting payments like it's a game, and you realize we got no margin at the end of the month. to save for retirement and go on that vacation. And so I think that's the biggest key. It goes back to not living on less than you make. Right. And so it's rarely an income problem because we know there a third of people making six figures are living paycheck to paycheck. And that makes people irate.

A third of people making six figures a year other than paycheck to paycheck.

One paycheck month to month show up. They're screwed. Really? That was a shocking stat. That wasn't even Ramsey research. That was outside research. We were like, That makes sense because people calling the Ramsey Show just this last week, we're taking calls from people making 190 grand, 250 grand, and they can't breathe. Wow. Well, you start adding up all the toys they have and the luxury cars, they got a $60,000 car loan here. They're underwater on it. It's only worth 40 now. And they bought a house that was a little too much house. They bit off more than they can chew, and the mortgage payment is 60% of their take-home pay. And so you add up all that and they got a credit card balance now and they got the personal loan and they still have the student loan and all of this just compounds.

And they gotta fix stuff. They gotta, you know.

They have no emergency fund. Four in 10 people have $0 in savings. And so you add up all these stats and you're going like, America has become land of the free and home of the broke. Like how did we get here? This is an amazing country with so much opportunity. We have more time. We have the most advanced society in the world and we have less time and money than ever before. Like when are we gonna wake up and just break free from all this and go like this ain't working. Let's try a different way. Wow. And that's why I'm out here on the rooftops going like, here's how to do it. Break free from the system. Like you don't need a credit. Ditch the credit cards. Screw the student loans. And it's a hard road to travel. It's swimming upstream because we are so.

Desensitized to debt in today's world. Here's a stat that I saw. that you mentioned in the book. 43 million Americans carry a total of 1.6 trillion in student loans and also the average student loan debt per borrower is almost $40,000 at an average interest rate of 5.5%. So this amounts to a payment of about $393 a month. Based on those numbers let's do some math that will move you from sad to angry. If you pay $393 per month for 20 years, you will have paid more than $94,000 in total payments on a loan that was $40,000 at graduation. And then you say, are you punching a hole in the wall yet? You know, what is your thoughts on getting into a good school, taking on $20,000-$40,000 a year in student loans and graduating with $200,000-$400,000 in student loans? What's your thoughts on that? dream that universities and colleges are selling teenage students today?

Well, I think student loans and higher education has become a normalized scam in America today. And I'm very pro-education. Hear me say that. I think education is great. But I don't think going to the dream school and taking on student loans to do it has the ROI that it used to.

Really? You think it's a scam?

Yeah, I mean look at college tuition. It's risen 400%. And you're like, is this still worth it?

Because it's not like- Am I getting better education?

Salaries haven't increased by 400%. Degrees are not all rated equally. And so we tell people, only go to school if it's the only way and it's the best way, and even then, choose the most affordable school. And that might not be the dream school.

Yeah, my nephew, I think he's a genius. He's smarter than me today at like, 19, right?

He's read, I don't know, hundreds of books.

He's like Prodigy level then. Prodigy level, like just so intelligent, emotionally intelligent, IQ, EQ, all of it. But he went to a community college for the first two years because it was 500 bucks a quarter or something, whatever it is. He knew it was free. Exactly. And I was like, good for you. You could have like went to, and now he's going to Ohio State for his final two years. Transferred to the four-year. Exactly. And it's a state school. It's a lot cheaper. Like he can pay it off While he's working while he's in school to pay it off by the time he's done. And I'm like, that is a smart way to do it. Unless you're going for some specialty skill, like I was an athlete, so I wanted to play at a university where I could play sports that was different to help me get into being a professional athlete. I took on debt, but I was able to pay it off within like seven years and or some other like specialty skill. But usually you can find an internship, a mentorship, you can learn stuff online now that's affordable or free and learn these things and try to work somewhere during there as well. Is there ever a time, you know, Winston Churchill, you said in the book, a quote from Winston Churchill, I began my education at a very early age. In fact, right after I left college, I think it was someone else, maybe it was Einstein, someone that said, don't let schooling get in the way of your education.

Oh, yeah, maybe in a Twain quote or something.

Mark Twain, yeah, don't let schooling get in the way of your education. Yeah.

Well, it's become about the experience. I think we can admit that now. Look at colleges, they got whirlpools that they're selling in the college brochures and look at the world-class cafeteria and the chefs. It's not about the education anymore. It's now become about mom and dad's reputation. And the parents can't brag to their friends about the kid going to community college. And so what parents are doing is saying, hey, go to that school, we'll figure it out. What that turns into is we'll take out student loans in their name. We've seen that on the Ramsey Show. We'll co-sign parent plus loans, which just means the parent just took out debt. And here's what we've seen. The kids can't always pay, and it falls back on the parent, and it makes Thanksgiving dinner real awkward. And so all of that, it turns into people paying for student loans for 20 years is the average. And the balance grows over time. They're paying this down with the minimum payment, so they think, or these income-driven repayment plans, and they started with 40 grand. Well, now the balance is 60 because they were in deferment and they couldn't pay and they're trying to get the job. And there wasn't this magic, you know, job at the end of the college rainbow with the salary they thought they were gonna get. I interviewed high schoolers and they were just like flabbergasted when I was like, you,'re not gonna make 100 grand straight.

Out of college with that degree.

They thought they would?

Yeah.

They all think, well, I'll just make six figures, it'll be fine. So I'll take on 200 grand in debt, I'll be able to pay it off, not realizing what your paycheck's gonna be after taxes and what that's gonna look like when you already have a car payment. And now everyone's telling you, when you graduate, you gotta get a house.

What are you doing?

You're a college graduate. That's the American dream. Travel the world and live your life. And so all of that just turns into this life that, I say in the book, that we were sold the American dream but delivered the American nightmare. especially with the student loan thing. And I love education. I think you can get more education from this show than you can from most college campuses, to be honest. And the people I've seen that are successful are not successful because of a piece of paper. They're the secret sauce. And they just found the right knowledge base and skill set to learn to do the thing they wanted to do.

You know, it's interesting because I felt extremely insecure and stupid almost my entire life because of school, because I did so poorly in school. and I had a tutor every day. I was in special needs classes. When kids were doing lunch and recess, I was with a tutor alone, feeling shameful that I couldn't remember or comprehend the words on a page that I was reading as a middle school and high schooler. It was really, it felt really sad and lonely because everyone else was excelling in school. And I remember thinking like, gosh, I can't wait till the bell to ring at whatever, 3 20 or 3 30 every day so I can get on the sports field or the basketball court or the baseball field because that's where I was learning the most about myself, about how to set goals every day, about how to be disciplined, about how to listen to a coach and actually implement, okay, he's telling me to do this thing, I'm gonna do it. How to get feedback and receive feedback, how to communicate with teammates and work with a team. All those skills, I was like, this is school for me. I'm learning more in this two hours of practice than eight hours of a classroom. And I remember saying to myself, like, after school was done, because it was just a painful experience emotionally and spiritually, in a sense. It was just like, I couldn't wait for things to be done. And I was like, I am an idiot. Like, after school was over, I was like, I still don't know anything. And the things that I. The degree I got, like, I'll never use this and all these different things. And I was like, I need to learn a lot, and there's still so much I need to learn. and I remember thinking to myself, before I started the School of Greatness 10 years ago, I was like, I want to start something where I can learn from the smartest people in the world and get the best education. And it's not going to be sitting in a classroom all day. It's going to be learning one-to-one and then figuring out how can I share this with the world. And that's why school, it's a school of greatness. I was like, this is what I wish I learned growing up, stuff that you talk about in your book. No one talks about this stuff. No one teaches you about the financial strain you might have for your whole life if you do certain things. They don't teach us about how to deal with losing or failure or emotions or all these different stuff that we need as adults, this different type of education. That's why I created the School of Greatness. That's why I'm glad that you're here talking about financial freedom and breaking free from broke like you have in your book. So the biggest financial scam that you think right now is college.

It's the one that our generation was sold. I mean, think about it from a young age, that's the path you're sold.

What school are you to go to?

Get good grades to go to this school to get a better job that pays more money so that you can have a better financial life. It doesn't pan out these days. For most people, they number one either don't finish school, They don't use their degree and they're paying it off for so long that there's no ROI there. And yes, there's trades, of course, that I think are undervalued in today's world. And you can go to trade school and pay for that in cash and be making more than your buddy who has his philosophy degree. And so I think there's a lot of value in all kinds of work. And in the world we live in today, I mean, gosh, you can start a YouTube channel and podcast and be just fine. And so there's so many opportunities out there that I think, especially the younger generations, they're starting to sniff this out and go, Mom, Dad, I'm not gonna go to your alma mater.

No, unless your parents wanna pay for it and say, We're gonna pay everything and you don't have to worry about any debt. And they just wanna do it out of the kindness of their heart and it's like, okay, then maybe that's a thing you could do for four years.

To learn or four and a half, five years or whatever. And you might be better off going to Europe for, you know, send me.

To Europe for 30 grand.

Learn a language. And it's still cheap. In Europe, yeah, exactly. If you want the experience and the social, you know, and all that, but there's nothing wrong with going to these famous schools and expensive schools, but if you're doing it with debt and doing it for the wrong reasons.

Right.

And to put the pressure on a 17-year-old to be like, what do you want to do for the next 40 years? Because then there's some cost fallacy and there's resentment, because I grew up in Middle Eastern culture. It was like, well, you're either gonna be in medicine or you're gonna be an engineer. Or a failure. You get two options. And so I was the failure. My parents were very supportive. I got a communication degree and went the, but the rest of my family are, they're engineers and in medical, in the medicine world. which is great for them, but a lot of them are years later still paying on those student loans. And you're going from a nurse to a nurse practitioner and to doctor and pharmacist and all of these paths, they take a lot of money. And sometimes you go, I thought I was going to make $300,000. I'm in residency and I'm not making squat. And so there's just a lot of misinformation and myths around what the future will look like. And when you do it without debt, you just have less stress. You have more peace about the next step, and you have different options. You don't have to take that first job. You can wait.

What would you say are the three biggest killers of wealth in America?

Ooh. On my YouTube channel, I did a video, it was America's number one wealth killer, and it was about car loans. And that one blew up.

Tell me why.

Because I did the math, and math sometimes is offensive. what that car payment would be if you had just simply invested it. And it was millions of dollars. We're talking like $6 million if you invest the average car payment.

Give me a breakdown of this.

Well, if you take the average car payment, I think of the book was $600 now, $700 for a month. Yeah, $700 for a new car.

Five grand down, probably $700 a month or something.

Yeah. That's normal now because new cars are now 40-50 grand. And so $700 a month invested in the S&P 500, which historically We'll see a 10% return, 11% return. Well, over 30 years of your career, 700 bucks a month, it's a freaking lot of money and it turns into millions and millions of dollars. Now, the opposite side is let's say you're going to be the tortoise. You're going to be me and you're going to go, well, I'm going to buy the $6,000 car and I'm going to slowly upgrade over time to the used $12,000 car, maybe eventually to the $20,000 car, $30,000, whatever. You're going to do it with cash over a long period of time. and that payment you would have had, you can put that away, save it, invest it, sinking funds, all of that, and you're not paying any interest. And so I think the choices we make because of loans, we go, well, I can't afford a $50,000 car, but I can afford a $500 monthly payment. It's broken. Like wealthy people ask a different question. They don't ask how much down, how much a month. They ask how much. What is the full price? And if I can't afford it, I'm not buying it.

I'm gonna pay it all in cash right now and not have this payment over time.

Absolutely. So I think car loans are what's.

The benefit of, say someone's like, I wanna buy a really fancy car. You know, I wanna buy a 50 to maybe a $80,000 car, $100,000 car. And they say to themselves, why spend a hundred grand on a car when I can just pay, you know, 1300 a month and keep that cash, I can invest that cash in the market and that's going to grow for me and pay down my payments over time. What do you say to that?

Well, I think those people, first of all, they rarely have the margin to be able to do that. And usually if they're spending 100 grand on a car, they're going to be flexing in other ways and other parts of their life. And so this idea that I could, like, arbitrage that money, I'm going to deploy my cash in this way, I think it's a losing game. And because it stems from comparison and discontentment. It stems from I want something that I can't afford, but I want it anyways and debt allows me to have it now.

It's like, what if someone can afford it? If they can't afford it, go for it. Why? If someone can afford it, should they pay it all in cash and be done with it one payment? Or should they say, you know, I can afford it, but I'm gonna be able to pay these payments down also. But I'd like to have more cash.

In the bank for whatever reason. Sure. Yeah. Now, I think for most people, If you have, let's say, $100,000 in cash and you're going to get $100,000 car, you're like, I could take on the payments, I'll use this elsewhere. I think if you're actually doing the math, it just doesn't make sense. Because number one, you're assuming, well, the market's just going to keep going up and up and up. I'll always make money. It's a roller coaster. So if you're investing for the short term, that's a dangerous game. But on the other side, when you look at that $100,000 car, and the more expensive the car, the more it's going to depreciate most likely. The $100,000 car, We've seen, and I talk about this in the book, in five years it goes down 60% in value. Five years. So $100,000 down to $40,000. You're like, that hurts my brain to think about.

It's depreciating asset, yeah.

And so you're paying interest on the depreciating asset. And so you're getting hurt on both ends there. And what we found on the Ramsey Show, almost every single caller saying, Help me, I'm underwater in my car. I owe 60, it's only worth 40. What do I do?

What do they do?

You don't have that problem when you don't have a car payment.

When you just paid in cash. What do those people do if they've, in that situation though? What do you guys suggest?

There's only a few options. Number one is you just hang on to the car and pay it off. Number two, you come up with a difference. So let's say you're 20 grand underwater, you come up with 20 grand in cash, saving up over time in order to pay off that loan in full.

Wow.

Then the other option is you go to your local credit union and get a personal loan for the difference and say, listen, the same place that gave you the loan in the first place, you go, you got a bad loan on your hands. You got bad collateral here because what you gave me, this asset is not worth that anymore. Can I have the difference in order to get rid of this asset, get it out of my life, get out from under this car payment? So it's none of them, none of.

Those options are pretty, by the way. So you don't think you should ever.

Get a car loan? no. Yeah, I don't think it's wise. There's a lot of, like, you know, Financial people out there going, well, here's the parameters. And if you do it this much down, you know, I've seen it all. But what I've also seen is people who build wealth with intentionality and they're not trying to flex. They just buy the cars they can afford.

Right.

And once you have no payments and that's a value you live by, you just make different decisions because once payments are normal on one end, you're just gonna go, well, it's fine. I already got a payment here. I got a payment there. When you decide I'm done with debt, it is so freeing because you just go, I can save up 20 grand. I know how to do that. I did it for the down payment. I did it for college. I can do it for the car.

Yeah.

And so cars are utility and it's fun, you know, Dave Ramsey's got some really nice cars. He's saved cash for all of them. He gets to choose what kind of car he drives. So we always say, Drive like no one else so later you can drive like no one else. And that was me. I drove an '09 Civic just a few years ago. Oh, wow. The bumper hanging off. Dave Ramsey's making fun of me. He's going, Come on, dude, it's time to upgrade the car. But I was like, I'm paying off the house first, and then I'm gonna upgrade.

And even then, I bought a used car still. And even-- Nice, nicer used car, though.

Nice. Very nice, yeah. Yes. And so we just upgraded my wife's car because she deserves way better than I do. And so it hurt my soul to write that check, but man, it felt good to not have a payment next month. Right. And the month after that, and the month after that. So now we're able to invest in my little girls. 529 plan and save up for that vacation and she can enjoy the car and it can go down in value and it doesn't hurt my soul one bit. I'm like, we're never going to be underwater on this car. It's just a toy.

It's a toy, but she appreciates it. It allows her to feel safe or an emotional connection.

It's okay to like, people think that we're against having nice stuff and nice cars. Like, they just want you to drive beater cars forever. I'm like, no, drive a beater car while you're broke so you can get break free from broke to get the car you really want. But you own it and it doesn't own you.

Yeah, that's good.

And American culture these days is everything owns you because you've got payments attached to everything in your life.

Now, what's your thoughts on buying a home being a great decision or a horrible decision? Because you hear a lot of people saying, like, never buy a home that you live in, like, just rent. And I know who you're talking about. Yeah. And also, it's just like homes are getting more and more expensive. I mean, a home in Los Angeles is pretty unaffordable for a lot of people compared to maybe Idaho or something where a home might be a different price. But should we be buying our own home and taking on this massive mortgage and this massive debt and these payments every month and then having to fix things up and, you know, break a, you know, fix the roof and the, the water or the systems, whatever it is, and all the state taxes and all these other fees that come with owning a house.

It's no joke.

Or just rent a house, let someone else take care of all that stress, and you stay in a space that is more flexible for you. Yeah, well, I think renting has got.

A real bad rap in today's world, and I hate that because I think renting is very wise. It's buying patience, and for a lot of people it does make sense. And if you're living in a high cost of living city, you're not entitled to be a homeowner, and you live in New York City or LA. It's gonna be harder if you wanna buy a home in San Francisco, and that's where you choose to live. You better have the income to support living in San Francisco. And so I think home ownership is a great goal that everyone should have to at some point be a homeowner and have that house paid off. And we've seen that as part of the millionaire study. A paid off home was a huge part of their net worth. There's about a third of their net worth of millionaires was in a paid for home. And the average millionaire paid off their home in 10.2 years. And so I think it's a huge part. I think renting forever is also a bad plan. Because rent's going to go up over time. 'cause those homeowners property taxes go up over time and someone owns that house. And so that's also a bad plan. I want you to have a fixed expense of a home and then soon pay that off. And so we all, here's the way to do it to where you know you're not making a poor decision. Only buy a house when you're financially ready. And that has nothing to do with home prices and interest rates. It has everything to do with your own financial home.

How do you know when you're financially ready to buy a home?

Once you're completely debt free of consumer debt, you've done the debt snowball, you have a fully funded emergency fund, 3 to 6 months of expenses, then you save up the down payment. And here's the other kicker. Not only do you have the down payment, but you get a 15 year fixed rate mortgage where the payment is no more than a quarter of your after tax income. So that looks a lot like, you know, if you're you make five grand a month, 1250 should be where that mortgage sits on a 15 year. Now, that's hard to do, I'll admit. In today's world with home prices and interest rates, that's gonna be hard. So what do you have to do? Make different decisions. Because the math didn't change. So what has to change is your expectations of your first home. That might mean we get the condo instead of the single family. It might mean we're 45 minutes outside of the city because that's the one we can afford. It might mean we gotta save up a bigger down payment for the next two years in order to do this wisely. Right. But the other option is, and we get this on the Ramsey Show, people call us and say, Hey, my parents pressured us to buy a house and now it's 65% of our take-home pay and we're broke, like we can't afford this and that, and we can't, you know, put food on the table and cover our bills, and we got to sell the house now. Well, that turns homeownership from a blessing to a burden. And so there's a right way to do it and a right time to do it. But unfortunately, people in their 20s are just like, well, it's time for me to buy a home. It's the American dream. Where's my home? I got the degree.

I'm still paying on my student loans. Oh, man.

Gosh, I need to get getting a home. And so there's a time and a place for it. Should you buy a home if you have student debt? Well, my hot take is no. My hot take is pay off all consumer debt before you get a home. And your student loans.

Everything.

Student loans, credit cards, car loans, it all needs to go before you become a homeowner. Because it just adds, it compounds the stress. Because you know, home ownership is real expensive. Like you think it's apples to apples. $2,000 in rent is not $2,000 in mortgage. Because the rent is the least you'll pay. The mortgage, that's just the starting point.

Yeah.

Before you start dealing with maintenance and repairs and the HVAC went out and the roof needs to be replaced four years from now. I mean, those are some big ticket items.

And your time to fixing stuff or whatever, managing things differently. Yeah.

So sometimes I miss the days of renting when I could just call the apartment complex and be like, you got a problem to fix over here. And so it really is a blessing while you're renting. I know it stinks because you're like, I'm not building Equity. but building that patience muscle is so important and ignoring everyone else's noise of like, you got to get a house, man. If you don't get in now, you'll never get in.

I lived in a two-bedroom apartment for, I don't know, 15 years, you know, until I was 40. Wow. I lived in a two-bedroom apartment, and I felt completely fine with that. You know, it was. It was a nice apartment. I had, like, what I needed, and I upgraded, you know, over time into a nicer apartments, but. I did not feel like I'm missing out by not having a home. And I didn't have debt also. I liked the flexibility of renting and having the convenience to be able to travel and making sure someone's taking care of my stuff. And I didn't know what city it was gonna be.

But you're more flexible. Yeah, exactly. If you're renting, like if you want to move cities in a different job. Exactly. Versus what do I do now? The house isn't selling and I gotta get to this job. Like you're more planted when you become a homeowner and it's not easy to get out. There could be tax implications if you sell too soon. So it definitely complicates things, but it's overall, it's a great part of your wealth building journey and I encourage everyone to do it, but don't feel pressured.

And don't do it before you're ready. Is there such a thing as good.

Debt versus bad debt? Well, I wrote a chapter in the book called Debt is a Thief and it's not bad debt is a thief, it's just debt is a thief. And so the hot take here is that your greatest wealth building tool is your income and when you're giving any part of that, to a lender, you don't have your greatest wealth building tool at your disposal completely. And so I've never seen, you know, you always hear stories about people leveraging debt and, you know, mortgages in a sense with your home appreciating, people are like, well, that's good debt. But it doesn't mean you want to hang on to the debt. The home is the part that's amazing. It's not hanging on to the debt. And even with these low interest rates, people feel stuck because they have a two, three percent interest rate on their home. They're like, I can never get rid of this house. I can never sell because I'll lose this precious debt. Like the idea that we're so obsessed and attached to our debt shows how far off the beaten path we are as a culture. So I truly don't believe there's good debt and bad debt because I've only seen debt hurt people. And the people that say they're winning, like it's easy to go on TikTok and be like, well, it worked for me and you should do it too. That's terrible advice because you don't know this other person's situation and what life's gonna throw at them. And so it always adds risk. You see a lot of people, especially.

In kind of the real estate space saying, the only good debt you can have is when you're borrowing money to get real estate and then you're buying more to have more real estate and it's compounding interest over time or you're building equity in that or whatever it might be. And you have 10 homes now, but you're all in debt with all these homes. You're borrowing it from the previous home. And unfortunately, there was a guy I met, I don't know, earlier this year, I only met him once, but we had a nice kind of two hour dinner conversation. And unfortunately, it was public about a month or two ago that he committed suicide because he was a real estate guy. He had invested in way too much. Over leveraged. He had just had his first child and the pressure was too much for him to take on, how am I going to pay this off now? It was like some building that he invested in or something. He was developing, he was investing. and he had a lot of, I guess, net worth on paper, but then it was over leveraged and the pressure was too much. And he took his own life about a month or a month, two ago. Two ago. And it's just like, again, you hear some people saying, like, yeah, it's cool to have debt. But until you feel like everyone's calling you and collecting and you don't know what to do and you can't get access to money to pay this off, are you emotionally stable enough? to manage that chaos and stress in your life. Yeah. Do you want that in your life? And I don't know all the details of what actually happened, but I do know that more money doesn't always mean more peace.

Yes.

Sometimes more money means more pain if you're not educated or emotionally ready for that amount of money. And do you think that is do you think if people got written a million dollar check today, and they were in debt. Do you think their lives would be better or more stressful?

Well, I think money magnifies who you are. And if you've never managed a lot of money, it's scary. Because if you haven't managed the little money you've had well, what makes you think you're going to manage a million dollars well? Just because you have more of it doesn't mean you're going to make wise decisions. And we see this with the data on lottery winners. It's gone. Like, how did you blow? We got a call the other day and this guy's like, I want a million bucks and it was gone within a few years. Really? And he just blew it. Doesn't take much, you know? And so it was really sad because a million bucks in lottery is really 600,000 and you spend 100,000 a year for six years. Gone. The money's gone. Not that crazy to do. And so, I mean, you've had our friend Dave Ramsey on this show multiple times and he shared his story of bankruptcy and he was over leveraging real estate. The bank called the notes. and he couldn't sell off the properties fast enough and it destroyed his life. Wow. It almost destroyed his marriage. And so, you know, there's a reason Dave is so risk averse when it comes to debt. And now he has a $600 million real estate portfolio with the Ramsey headquarters and all kinds of properties, and he paid cash for every dang one. That's incredible. He doesn't have a scent of debt. And so to me, it's inspiring to go like, you don't have to, there's not this one game you have to play to be a real estate investor. you can do it differently. You can go slow until you can go fast. That's what Dave did. Because when you have all paid for properties, that thing cash flows like a mother. And so all of a sudden, pretty quickly, you have enough cash to deploy and get more property.

Right.

And so it's a different game. It's the tortoise versus the hare. But Dave's real peaceful with this property. You know what I mean? Like, no one's ever coming after him to collect. Exactly. And so that puts you in control.

Your book, Breaking Free from Broke: the Ultimate Guide to More Money and Less Stress. People can grab it right now. It's out. So make sure you guys go pick up a copy. Get one for your friends as well. A lot of great content in here to help you get free from the stress of debt and just understanding your money better. So congrats on this. Thank you. A couple final questions for you. This one's called the Three Truths. So I'm going to shift it for you a little bit differently. I'd like you to imagine that this was your last day on Earth. And for whatever reason, you would have to take all of your content with you. This book wasn't around. Your YouTube channel, anything you've ever shared isn't around. And you didn't get to watch your daughter grow up, but you get to leave behind three lessons to her.

Ooh.

And this is all she would have to remember you by. It would be a video that she would get to watch as many times for the rest of her life. What would be those three truths or three lessons you would leave to her? Man. That's like dropping an atom bomb here. I feel like I need to film.

One of those videos. It's like in the in case I die video. It's like, here's the lesson. Lewis asked me to make this video for you. Exactly.

Oh man. It doesn't have to be perfect and I put you on the spot, but. What would those kind of lessons be? It wouldn't always be to her, but to the world. What would be those lessons?

I remember watching the last episode of Conan OBriens Late Night Show, and it has stuck with me, and he talks about cynicism. And his final plea on the show is, Please do not be cynical. And that's part of the reason I wrote this conclusion, and it goes far beyond money. And my lesson to her is, Don't be cynical. Hope is a choice, cynicism is a choice. I hope you choose hope. And so that would be my first lesson to her, because life is so much better and richer when you choose hope. Even though it's the hard thing to do, it's the stupid cheesy thing to do. Gosh, there's no use. You're drinking your own poison when you just walk around cynical towards the world. And that leads to, I think, other lessons, which is, Kindness is currency. Like kindness is such an underrated superpower in today's world. It diffuses bad attitudes. I mean, it's the best revenge, you know what I mean? Just to be unreasonably kind to people, regardless of what's happening. I think that's a really cool thing. And the last thing I would say is not caring about what other people think is a superpower. if she can avoid comparisons, especially in the Lord knows what kind of world she'll grow up in with social media and the stuff that kids are getting into at, you know, six, seven, eight, nine, ten years old and how it shapes their image of themselves. Like, I want to raise a daughter who is so confident, so kind, and she knows exactly who she is. And no man, no woman, is going to change that. because she is so confident in her goals, her values, her identity, her family. And that to me is the most powerful thing is if you can have that kind of a mentality of I'm not going to compare my life to others, I'm doing my own thing, I'm going to be kind to everyone I meet and I'm going to be a hopeful person instead of a cynical person. I think that will bleed into all of the financial principles that I'm out here preaching. Delay gratification is going to be part of that. You know, wealth is patience is going to be part of that. You're going to be a person of character who's going to build wealth the right way and have the work ethic if you believe those things. And I think those are the people who ultimately become wildly successful. It's not the evil people out there who got on the backs of others. It's people with integrity and kindness who were optimistic about the future. And we need that more than ever.

I love that. I love that, man. Well, Mia's got a great, great future.

I hope so.

And she'll have you to, to raise her to teach those things as well.

This is her, by the way.

Oh, man, that's cute.

Wow.

That's awesome, man. Thank you on that. Breaking free from broke, the ultimate guide to more money and less stress. Make sure you guys get your copy from George Camel. Also, check out your channel on YouTube if you want more great content from George. George Camel and your name everywhere on social media. Love this stuff, man.

This is really powerful.

I want to acknowledge you, George, for a moment for being an example for a lot of people, a lot of people who started out or maybe right now are in debt, they got student loans, maybe they haven't made the best decisions because they weren't educated or they didn't know any better. You're a great example of what's possible with commitment, with consistency, and with really educating yourself and being disciplined over a period of time and how you can break free from that. So it's really cool to see live examples of individuals right now who are young. How old are you again?

34.

34, yeah. So it doesn't take 50 until you get debt free and feel like this sense of financial freedom. It doesn't have to take forever. It's just being disciplined and you've been consistent with that. So I acknowledge you.

Thank you.

Of course. Final question for you. What's your definition of greatness?

Ooh. My definition of greatness. How to, oh, I want to beat everyone else. But I don't have a good enough answer. You've had some greats on this. on this show, my definition of greatness is a relentless perseverance for excellence. I think that's the thing I admire in anyone I meet, is they're just not okay with anything less than excellent. And it's not out of a place of perfectionism or I want to be better than everyone. It's a personal race against themselves. And their own creativity and ingenuity and innovation. I think Dave Ramsey has that. I think it's why people love him. And that also bleeds into the other character traits we talked about of having integrity and being kind. So I think that's what I'm after, is a relentless perseverance of excellence in everything that I do.

I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.