What Sociopaths Really Feel | Dr. Patric Gagne

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I'm fascinated by human dynamics and human behavior. You are an expert in this topic. I like understanding the human mind, human emotions, why people do the things they do. I'm just as fascinated.

I just come at it from an antisocial perspective, whereas you come at it from a prosocial perspective. But isn't that interesting how, you know, and that is something about psychopathy is that it's automatically assumed, oh, psychopaths can't feel. Psychopaths can feel. We feel all of the inherent emotions. So everyone's born with those inherent emotions. You have young kids, you didn't have to teach them to smile. You didn't have to teach them to cry. Happiness, sadness, surprise, disgust. Your children are born with these emotions, but it's the social emotions that psychopaths struggle to understand. Empathy, compassion, envy, remorse, guilt. Again, these things, these emotions are taught mostly through modeling. Mm-hmm. So if your daughter hits her sister, you're gonna say, hey, we don't wanna hit 'cause, you know, your sister, it'll make her sad, and you don't want your sister to be sad, do you? And your daughter will probably say, no, I don't. And that's how we learn empathy. Well, psychopaths don't learn emotions that way. Is

that because they're not modeled by parents or by society or by—

First of all, we struggle to understand inherent emotions, period. But because empathy and guilt and shame, et cetera, because it's modeled and you're using other like-minded children to do that modeling. For me, there were no like-minded children.

So you need other children to model.

Well, you need someone else. like you, because in order to get into the mind of someone else, in order to imagine what that person is feeling, you have to be able to relate to them in some way, right?

Right.

So in the example of your kids, your one daughter can almost certainly relate to what the other one is feeling. But for me, I understood that I didn't have these complex emotional developmental skills. I could see that my sister did. I could see that the kids around me did. So when it was time for someone to say, oh, you don't want Sarah to be sad. I remember just, no, I don't want Sarah to be sad. But what I was really thinking is, I don't know that I care. I mean, just because I don't care about someone's pain per se doesn't mean I wanna cause pain. But I don't really think I care about whether she's happy or not.

Interesting.

And I also learned that saying that out loud was the fastest way to get into trouble.

Oh, I'm sure.

And so that's where I learned to lie.

When you grew up, you didn't have the ability to care that someone else was feeling pain?

It's not that I didn't have the ability. It was just that I didn't— I understood it intellectually, but it didn't resonate with me emotionally.

You understood, oh, this person's in pain. I should feel this, something.

Yes.

But I'm not feeling it.

But I'm not feeling it. And admitting to that, saying to a caregiver—

And they're like, something's wrong with you.

Something's wrong with you. And back When I was a kid, we hardly had words for anxiety and depression, much less antisocial behaviors or conduct disorder or mood dysregulation disorder. I mean, nobody had language for this. So I just learned, if someone asks you if you feel bad, always say yes. If someone asks you if you feel remorse, always say yes. And I learned to—

But you didn't inside. No. So you're also lying to someone else. You're lying to yourself.

Yes. I was never lying to myself because I always knew that it was a lie.

I knew it was a lie, but you're still— yeah, I guess. But you're lying to someone else knowing it's a lie to you in a sense. Yes. You're saying, I'm feeling something. Correct. And you're not.

Right. Because I understood that I would get into trouble for it. And, and I often did get into trouble.

Yeah.

I learned that really quickly.

I would lie to my dad when, when I knew there would be a reaction.

Sure.

If he was gonna scream at me or if he was gonna yell at me or, you know, punish me. Mm-hmm. I'd be like, no, I didn't do it. You know? Yeah. I didn't, I didn't take that candy. I didn't eat that thing, whatever it was. Sure. But it doesn't feel good to lie, you know, even if it's a small lie. It doesn't feel— it never felt good. But I was like, I don't want to feel the punishment where I don't think I should be punished for this. Whether you are, you know, whether you're supposed to or not, I was like, I don't want to. And I think that's where it's probably tough being a parent because you want to create some type of discipline or teaching lesson or moment for young children. But if you're developing a child to lie because they know they're going to always be in trouble or have some pain associated with something, then it's just tough to navigate that.

Of course. And it's interesting how you said that you didn't like lying. Um, I had the opposite. I, I loved it because it made me feel so safe,

right?

I never felt safer than when I had lied. About a feeling, and they believed me. And I remember on the inside it felt, okay, I'm okay.

I can breathe.

I can breathe. Yes. So in that way, I was not only learning to lie, but I was also internally rewarded for those lies.

Wow.

And that's really important because when you're talking about psychopathy and how many are pathological liars, Automatically, the assumption is that there is some nefarious motivation behind that. But, and certainly—

Like an evil motivation.

Of course. And down the line, sure, that can be, yes. But where it develops is a coping mechanism in much the same way you said, I didn't want to be in trouble. And all kids do this. But I remember my sister who is incapable of telling a lie even today. She's— her face gets red. She—

You know when she's lying.

And she can't do it.

She can't do it.

She can start and then she'll bail. But it's clear that she had a very negative reaction. And I remember early on thinking, yeah, I have a very different reaction. I remember feeling so safe. Once I understood my personality type, once I understood the motivations behind some of the behavior I was engaging in, why I felt so safe to lie, why I didn't feel the way that others felt. Once I became comfortable with that, I also made the decision, I'm not going to lie ever.

How old were you when you started to think about that?

Probably my 20s, because it was very isolating. But more than that, it felt very claustrophobic. Constantly shape-shifting, emotional shifting.

Exhausting.

Exhausting.

Exhausting.

Yes. But in order to do that effectively, To your point, you need a partner that can hold the information.

Yes.

And so many people do. They ask for the truth, but then they don't know how to contain it.

They can't handle it.

Yes. And that's tough because it's hard for someone like me to not just instantly go back to lying. But what I had to do was basically say what you said. I don't care if I never have a friend in my entire life.

I

would rather have no friends than have friends that I have to constantly curate this falsified emotional experience.

Wow.

See how similar it is though?

It's very similar.

And, you know, my, my guess is that you're not psychopathic, and yet—

Well, I don't know, what is the definition of a sociopath or psychopathic?

Now, the words sociopath and psychopath are pretty much interchangeable because sociopath isn't used clinically. It's become clinically obsolete. Now, when someone is diagnosed as either antisocial personality disorder or psychopath Psychopath has 2 categories, psychopathy, primary psychopathy and secondary psychopathy. Primary psychopathy is biological, very, very rare, incurable, untreatable. Secondary psychopathy, environmental, completely treatable. And these are people who have an inherent temperament that sort of predisposes them to deceit. We all know that kid in the classroom, the kindergartner that can tell a lie with no problem. As opposed to my sister, who as soon as she starts lying about a dinner reservation, breaks out in a sweat.

Wow.

But there are kids that are just naturally gifted liars. It's not to say that every child with that temperament is going to become psychopathic, but it's certainly easier for them to progress in that direction. And they just, they have a hard time internalizing those social emotions.

Is that more of a genetic, I don't wanna call it defect, but is that a genetic trait that human beings have, or is it an environmental trait?

It's usually, It seems to be a combination of both, whereas primary psychopathy is believed to be biological and that there is no learning the social emotions for someone who is a primary psychopath. What is it?

Is it like a wiring in the brain that is different? Is it an emotional— the nervous system is broken or off in some way? What is that?

They're not sure, but a lot of research points to oxytocin, which is the That, that the love hormone for trust building. They're still trying to pinpoint what it is exactly. But again, because that type of disorder, because that type of psychopathy is so rare, I think 0.004% of the population, there really is no research or funding.

Right, right, right.

Whereas secondary psychopathy is believed to represent at least upwards of 5% of the population.

Really?

These not only are these cases treatable. But the pediatric precursors for secondary psychopathy, um, oppositional defiant disorder, mood dysregulation disorder, conduct disorder— completely, completely treatable and preventable. So with the right screeners, you could start screening kids for these disorders and start treating them, and then you would prevent most of the secondary psychopaths that

So psychopath and sociopath are the same thing?

Roughly, because sociopath is, is clinically obsolete in much the same way that multiple personality disorder is now called, I believe, dissociative disorder.

Gotcha. They've changed the name.

They've changed the name to reduce stigma. I'm not sure that replacing it with psychopath is reducing—

Sociopath or psychopath.

But I'll tell you what, we don't care.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

So, okay, what I'm hearing you say is 5% of the population is psychopathic.

Not only that, but because most of— so the PCL is the gold standard for testing for psychopathy. That test is designed to be administered within the prison system. You need to— a requirement of the PCL is that you have to have at least evidence of a criminal record. So when you consider that most of the testing for psychopathy takes Yeah. There's no way that percentage isn't much higher.

Interesting.

And most people—

Is that 5% in prisons?

It's— no, that's 5% of the population. But if they're only testing mostly in prison, you know that number's higher.

Interesting. You think there's more outside of prison?

Oh, come on. You're looking at one.

Just haven't gotten caught for doing something extreme. Yes.

And they've— and they have learned to— they have learned to be disciplined. They have learned to slide under the radar and—

Shapeshift or whatever you want to call it.

Shapeshift. and lie and live that claustrophobic life where they're— because understand, just because I don't connect the way that I'm supposed to doesn't mean that I don't crave connection in my own way.

Yes.

I always wanted that home life. I always wanted that. I always remember feeling like I was standing outside of department store glass looking at a window display because I really do. I, I understand the value of society. I understand the value of relationships. I don't connect to relationships the way that most people do, but that's not wrong. It's different.

It is different. Yeah. The thing I love about this book, you know, it's funny that your book cover says sociopath and it's a photo of you. I'm assuming when you were like 5 or 7 years old. Do you know exactly when this was? This—

4th grade.

Okay, maybe 8, 9 years old or something like that. Yeah. It's funny because this photo of you, uh, it's beautiful because it's kind of connecting you to the inner child inside of you. When we realize as adults that we have such unique and, for most people, challenging life experiences that we faced, typically coming from childhood, that have developed us into who we are as adults, all of our beliefs, all of our behaviors, all of our thoughts, Emotions, the way we feel is stemming from earlier childhood in some way, shape, or form. And when we can learn to have compassion for the younger version of us who dealt with all these messy emotions that we didn't understand this world we were entered in, we didn't choose to enter, or maybe we did, but we didn't understand why we chose it. And all of a sudden we're supposed to fit in and belong and understand human dynamics and what's right and wrong from a young age. It's very confusing and complex.

Yeah.

And when we can have grace for the younger version of ourselves, then I think we can start to grow, heal, and develop into who we can truly become. And so I love that this is a photo of yourself when you were younger on the COVID of your book. And I just think it's beautiful for your own personal healing journey as well.

Thank you. It's funny too, because when people talk about psychopaths in a negative way and say things like they should all be locked up. Or a lot of, um, a lot of clinicians have used the word irredeemable when dealing with, right, with psychopaths. And I always like to ask, so when did they become irredeemable? 5, 6, 7, 8?

Yeah.

12? When does that scale tip? And because I do remember what it was like to be a kid, I do have such strong memories of feeling alone. And I think the memories of myself as a child are part of the reason why I have been able to develop some degree of a natural empathic response because I can empathize with her. So if I can empathize with her, then I can sort of use that as a branch to empathize with others.

Interesting. Is that how you learned to empathize with other people?

I think later. At first, I learned by I had read a research study on psychopaths, and I remember thinking, well, what are these people doing? What are all these people doing to cope? I mean, are they all breaking into houses like I am? Are they all stealing cars? Like, this sucks. There are so many people like me, and there isn't any book on any shelf. There isn't any therapist in the directory.

Who knows how to deal with it.

Yeah. What are these people doing? And I remember thinking, oh, you know what? this feels like what they say empathy is. I can imagine what it's like for someone else to feel a similar way. And I was like, oh, this is why it's hard for me to empathize, 'cause I have a hard time empathizing with neurotypical people, but I don't have as hard a time.

Ah.

Right? And that's the same. Neurotypical people have a hard time empathizing with neurodivergent people. So it's really the same. And I find it really fascinating how Easy it is to vilify an entire category of people simply because you can't empathize with them. Because isn't that what you're saying about me? I'm a villain because I can't empathize with you, but you're not a villain because you can't empathize with

me.

Yeah.

In your, you know, opinion, I guess they said— you said the research has been 5% of sociopaths,

just under

5% in the population. You think it's more, right? What do you think is a real percentage of psychopaths or sociopaths in the world versus the percentage of neurodivergent individuals in the world?

Well, it's tough because neurodivergence encompasses such a swath of different—

Could be like half the population, right?

It really can. But I think in terms of psychopathy, especially if you're also including antisocial personality disorder, honestly, I'd say 7. I'd say about 7%.

7%.

And it's funny because that's right up there with anxiety disorder and depression. And yet if you go into any bookstore, you're gonna see shelf upon shelf of books on how to deal with anxiety, how to deal with depression. But the only books that you see about sociopathy, psychopathy, or antisocial personality disorder are books on how to protect yourself from, how to spot, how to keep yourself from becoming a victim of. Mm-hmm. And that's the main reason I wrote this because I remember so often going into the bookstore and seeing nothing. And I just thought, well, I'm going to put one there. I'm going to write something.

Wow.

Because I wanted kids like that to have something. Representation matters. And when the only representation of a psychopath on television is a serial killer or a monster, I remember thinking, okay, everything I'm hearing about sociopaths is evil, monster, serial killer, criminal, but I don't feel evil. And I mean, yes, I have the capacity to do things that other people aren't, but I don't— I'm not doing it because I'm angry. I'm not doing it because I hate or I'm trying to hurt. So is this like a situation where I'm just gonna wake up one morning and wanna kill somebody? I remember being afraid.

Really?

Yes, 'cause I remember reading that schizophrenia is usually diagnosed late teens, early 20s. And it is similar where you start hearing voices, you start being told to do things that you don't necessarily want to do.

Do you experience that at all or no?

No. No. But schizophrenia too.

That's schizophrenia.

Yes. And I was thinking, so is this like schizophrenia? Do I feel fine today, but tomorrow I'm going to wake up and suddenly my brain is going to start becoming altered? I didn't know.

You'll betray me or something.

Yeah, I didn't know. And then as I started researching it and I started understanding the disorder more, I was like, yeah, the information, the complete composite of psychopathy should be available. You know, these extremes have grown to comprise the entirety of this disorder, but that's not accurate in much the same way that— think of it this way. What if the only type of cancer we were willing to acknowledge was stage 4 cancer? Okay, who would do that? Nobody, because it's stupid. If you're, if you're only defining cancer by the most extreme cases, you're going to miss stages 1, 2, 3. You're not going to have treatment plans. You're not going to, um, know when to seek help, and you're all but guaranteeing more cases of stage 4. It's the same with psychopathy.

Wow. So how did you start to get, I guess, treatment or support once you realized Oh, I have these— I am a sociopath, or I have these psychopathic traits. Uh, I'm very different than other people. How did you get support for it, or was there no support for you at all?

There really was no support until I told my dad, and he insisted that I see a therapist. And I just got lucky. I had a therapist who was— she was well-versed in it, but nobody was really an expert that way. But she was willing to work with me and do the work. And because I was afforded every privilege imaginable, you know, most people are not. I was able to not just go to school but stay in school. I was able to go— not just go to therapy but stay in therapy. And through the help of my therapist and my friends, who I was then becoming honest with, I was able to at least sort of have witnesses to my journey. They didn't all stick around. I don't blame them, but that was, that was when I was— same, like making this decision of, yeah, I'm not going to lie about emotions anymore and I'm not going to lie about my actions anymore. I'm just going to start being really honest because—

What would that look like with a friend that you're like, I'm not going to lie anymore? When they tell you they're going through a hard time and a breakup or something else, what would you say then? Like, how would that conversation go?

I would say I would listen. And, but, and it's funny, I would've never thought this at the time, but I think I probably were, you know, used tools that I, I ended up refining when I started working as a therapist. What I realized when friends would tell me things is you don't have to empathize with somebody in order to be an observer or a container for their feelings. In fact, I think I'm an excellent container for feelings because my feelings don't pollute that container.

Interesting.

So

feelings don't get in the way. You don't say how you're feeling or what you're going through, right? Whatever.

You know what I find so much with neurotypical people is they'll sit down and they'll confide in one another, and one friend will start to get emotional. And what is the first thing the other friend says? What do you think?

I guess they could say, I'm so sorry, or they start crying maybe, or they make it about themselves maybe, or

please don't cry. Oh, please don't cry. Don't cry. Don't cry.

Oh, it's okay. It's gonna be okay.

Yes, it's gonna be okay. Yes, because

they don't want to deal with the They—

it's uncomfortable for them to see their friend cry, which is completely understandable. So the first thing they want to do is make it better.

It's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay.

Oh, don't cry. Oh, don't cry. When the truth of the matter is tears have mood-elevating hormones in them. Tears are the brain's way of regulating. So when you stop someone from crying, or when you stop yourself from crying, what you're doing is you're stopping the brain from healing itself.

Wow.

And so many people, because their intentions are good, they wanna stop their friend from crying because they don't like the way it makes them feel. They don't like to see their friend in pain. But when I have a friend who's crying, no, I don't like to see my friend in pain, but I understand it's not my job to stop them from feeling. It's my job in this moment to sit with them in that feeling. So—

Wow.

It's the first thing you would think is, oh, if you're talking to someone who's psychopathic, they don't care. And by the way, sometimes they don't. But I still understand this has nothing to do with me, and it doesn't have to have anything to do with me.

So you're like a perfect therapist then. You could be, because you allow people to express it. You're just nonjudgmental. You're just

like, let it out. Yes. And I felt that when I was first— because I never wanted to be a therapist. It was, um, I had to get hours for my doctorate, and I tried to get out of it in every possible way. I was like, this is crazy. You do not want me working as a therapist. I don't care about any of these people. I don't care about any of this. Like, this is so dumb. And I did, I went into it really begrudgingly. And I remember sitting there across from somebody and it wasn't like this, but imagine my internal self.

Yeah, yeah. You showed a happy, a neutral face. Yes.

But inside I'm like, this is so not what I want to be doing.

These people's problems.

Right. But then I was like, oh, you know what? I would go to— because when you're in your residency, you do these group Uh-huh. Like supervision.

Yeah.

And I would listen to all of the people that I was in, um, at the treatment facility with talk about how hard it was. You know, I, you know, this, this guy— one woman was saying this guy had come in, was talking about cheating on his wife, and she's like, and I was so angry, I just wanted to punch him, and I wanted to refer him to someone else because I hate this man. And they had their own emotional stuff that they were bringing in, and I remember thinking, oh, I don't have any of that. And that's when I thought, oh, I might like this because no one's expecting me to feel anything. And that was so different from every other place in my life where I'm expected to have a reaction. Everyone's expected to have a reaction. When you're in therapist, not only are you not expected to have a reaction, it's better if you don't.

Right.

So it was like actually the best—

Wow.

The best job for me.

Right.

Because it's like, oh wow, someone can be sitting in here crying right in front of me. And not only am I not expected to cry, it would be inappropriate if I did.

Sure, of course.

So it— and I was like, oh, I'm a container. And I— my job isn't to hold their hand and feel with them. My job is to observe their feelings and help them process those feelings.

And allow them to process.

Yes. So I was like, oh, wow, I had this all wrong. Then I actually really enjoyed it.

Really?

You ever grab the healthier snack, take one bite, and immediately wish you'd picked something else? If a habit feels like punishment, you're probably not going to stick with it. Look, committing to yourself starts with building habits that you can stick to. That's where Stars and Honey comes in. Their protein bars have 15 grams of protein and only 4 grams of sugar. Toss one in your gym bag, keep one in the car, or bring one to the office. And you don't have to choose between nutrition and taste. Try iced lemon cookie, mint chocolate chip, red velvet, or peanut butter mousse. Order Stars and Honey protein bars at starsandhoney.com or find them at Target stores nationwide. That's starsandhoney.com. Or pick up a box on your next Target shopping trip. In business, there's the easy way with Staples or the hard way. Hard means waiting too long for custom prints when your business needs them now. Easy means banners, business cards, and more ready as fast as same day. Hard means unfortunate printer errors. Easy means quality, professional-grade print solutions. Don't choose hard. Choose Staples. In store, online, or through the app. As a loyal listener of this show, you're always challenging yourself to grow, to be better, to keep learning, and Southern New Hampshire University can help. Southern New Hampshire University offers over 200 career-focused degree programs online. Plus, Southern New Hampshire University has some of the lowest online tuition rates in the US, so balancing school, work, and life actually feels achievable and affordable too. Find your degree at snhu.edu/greatness. That's snhu.edu/greatness. But you just

didn't have emotional connection to most of the, I guess, patients that would come in?

No.

Like nothing?

Not emotional. Intellectual.

How would you think about it if someone's going through a hard time in their life? Grief, loss, divorce, betrayal, and they come in and they're like, my life is over. I'm experiencing extreme pain. I've been depressed for 6 months. I can't sleep. This person did this horrible thing to me, or I did this horrible thing to someone and I ruined our relationship, whatever it is. How would you think and how would you feel in those moments?

Well, I'm not taking anything personally. I'm taking— I'm taking it as data.

Yes.

So I am— instead of, I, you know, I cheated on my wife, I blew up my life, I'm not thinking, what a piece of shit this guy is, like, I would kill someone if they did that to me. I'm not thinking that. I'm thinking—

You're not judging at all?

No, it's information. So it's, okay, he cheated. I wonder why he did that. He seems to be— he He seems to be honest in his remorse. He's in here talking to me, so some part of him wants to change. So why did he do that? Let's figure out why he did that. Why does he think he did it? And it's a puzzle, and it's a puzzle that I'm helping you put together so that you can process it and make different choices. I worked as an emergency trauma counselor, as a for volunteer work. And so I would meet people sometimes on the worst day of their life, mass shooting victims sitting down in front of me an hour after a horrible, catastrophic, unimaginable trauma. And I never had to worry that I was going to break down and exacerbate their trauma because you would see that happening where Understandably, other therapists would go in and they'd come out crying and sobbing. But then the person now feels like they don't have a container, you know?

Now they have to hold back, right? Because the other person can't—

Yes.

Deal with it.

And by the way, I can't— I don't blame the other therapists. It makes sense. But I remember thinking, I am— I can contain some—

Wow.

Some, some brutal stuff.

Some trauma.

Yeah.

And not let it like Infusing your soul.

Yeah.

You're not like taking on the emotional burden or weight of that trauma.

Yeah.

Like a lot of people may if, if they have that, I guess, emotional desire to want to connect more, if they're more empathetic in natural ways, I guess. Yeah. Like if someone told me something really horrible happened, I, I've had to learn how to create almost like a spiritual shield.

Right. Yeah.

Otherwise I'm exhausted.

That's right.

For the next 3 days.

Yes. That's just what I have inherently. So you're doing what I'm doing.

Yes.

You just had to teach yourself how to do it, whereas I just learned.

It's almost like a disassociation to it, right?

Yes.

You're just learning to, like, compartmentalize a different person's experience so you don't become the experience.

Right.

Which is— it was hard for me to learn that.

Sure. Yeah.

But you grew up with that.

With that.

Interesting.

But again, it's always— well, not always, but so frequently that is framed in a negative light. You know, it's, oh, you're— You're manipulating people. You're—

You don't care.

You don't care. You're callous. And, and, and I always push back on that word callous because I go back to what I said at the start, which is just because I don't have an emotional connection to someone's pain doesn't mean that I want to create more of it. Doesn't mean that I enjoy seeing someone in pain. If I see somebody fall down on the sidewalk, I will help them up. Now—

You're not going to kick them down.

No. Now, am I going to sit there and talk to them for 45 minutes? No.

That's more me.

But here's the thing, though, and there's nothing wrong with that either. But I think in society today, there's, there's an overemphasis on things have to come from the heart, you know. Oh, you have to mean it. It has to, it has to come from an emotional place. And that's simply, that's simply untrue.

Yeah. Wow. So is it possible for psychopaths to actually change?

Yeah.

How?

Through a process called resocialization. So similar to what I was talking about with kids who are neurotypical, they learn how to become socialized with, among other children, with other children through modeling, through examples, through experience.

But as an adult, is it harder?

I don't know that it is. It certainly wasn't harder for me. It's, but, but antisocial children, they don't learn that way. They learn in a different way. Again, because they're missing those cohorts, they don't have peers. Everything has to start selfishly. Right. Right. So instead of—

If you're the only child, do you have more tendencies to have these traits as well if you're the only child or something like that?

Positive reinforcement. So punishment does not work with antisocial children at all. Punishment. And by the way, punishment doesn't really work with prosocial children. I mean, the research indicates that Punishment really just teaches kids to hide their behavior. It doesn't really teach them to alter it.

Interesting.

But that is especially true of antisocial kids.

So when you would get into trouble, what would you— how would you respond? You would just hide it better?

I would hide it better. And I—

Would you act up more?

Yeah, I would. I'm thinking I was like— Isn't that interesting? No, because it's— I wouldn't have had the tools at the time to have articulated this, but it was definitely a feeling of, you're a hypocrite. You're not taking the time to get to understand me. You're making judgments. And now I'm punished. I remember specifically, The big thing was, don't tell a lie. As children—

Your parents would say this?

My parents, my—

Whatever. Teachers.

Yeah, teachers.

Authorities.

Never lie.

But they would lie.

All the time. I

feel like this is—

All the time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I would— oh, and so when I would get punished, oh, I would burn. And then I would think about how I was going to get them back after.

What can I do that's even worse?

What can I do that's even worse that you're not going to find out about? And So this is a bad example, but I had this one teacher that was so awful, and she punished me for something— again, something I saw her do all the time. And I remember thinking, okay, well, um, I'm gonna be really sweet, and I'm gonna make it seem like I really learned from my mistakes. And the second your back's turned, I'm gonna steal your keys, and I'm gonna enjoy watching you look for them. And I was very young.

Wow.

And I just— and I remember Now that's definitely nefarious.

Yeah.

And that's, you know—

And that could grow into something.

Well, sure. Especially when you're— so I was a privileged little girl, okay? But if I am a kid that has grown up in the foster care system, if I have no support, if I have no positive reinforcement, I— oh, if it's kill or be killed, absolutely, that knife is going to be much Wow. Um, but that's how antisocial kids learn. They learn through positive reinforcement. So let's say, uh, Jennifer wants to kick Stacy. Okay, you're not going to get Jennifer to not kick Stacy by saying something like, well, that'll make Stacy sad, because Jennifer's gonna say, and

who cares,

right? It's, all right, Jennifer, I get that you want to kick Stacy. She's— Stacy's annoying. We all wanna kick Stacy sometimes, but here's the thing. If you kick Stacy, you're gonna get in trouble, and then you're not gonna be able to go to the skating rink on Saturday. And I know you wanna go to the skating rink, so what do you say we not kick Stacy?

Mm-hmm.

It's a type of negotiation where they have to understand what their action is going to cost them. And then from there, they can grow to understand how those actions affect others. So as an adult, when I started to learn that, and when you have adults who are in treatment for psychopathy, that's the reframe. It's, you want your life to be great, right? You want to keep that job. You want to keep the money you have. You want to keep the relationships. You enjoy the relationships, right? If you start to cheat, if you start to steal, if you start to embezzle, all of that's going to go away. So it's almost like choose your hard. They're both hard. It's going to be hard not to embezzle. I know how tempting it is, but it's also going to be hard when your job and your friends disappear. So choose your hard.

Right.

It's not, don't do that because it's bad and that makes you a bad person, because That does not resonate. It's logic. And then that, from there, resocialization, you start to understand, okay, now I'm becoming a productive member of society, maybe for different reasons than everyone else, but I'm still getting here.

When I was like 10 to 11, it was probably like a year, year and a half range, I would go into stores and like steal candy bars and whatever, just little stuff here and there, and it became a game, right? And how can I— almost every time I went to a store, it was like— and this was before there was like cameras or whatever, so it was a lot easier, I guess, back then. But, um, I would try to steal something and put in my pocket and get away with it, right? And then I try to like go show other people what I did, and like a way of kind of, I don't know, proving my worth or value, because I didn't feel valuable at all. And I never felt bad about it until And I never got caught in a store, but I got caught one time with my dad. We went to go see like a client of his and his— this client's house and then ended up stealing $25 from this, this guy's wallet. And my dad caught me with it like the next day and he drove me back to go give this $25 back to this client. I was 11 years old. I was terrified. And the client, you know, this man looked at me, was so upset with me and just so disappointed. And I saw how it affected my family and it was like, oh man, I might have ruined something with my dad's business. And, and for whatever reason, that remorse made me never steal again, at least knowingly. Like, I've never intentionally stolen, you know, since I was 11. And was there a moment in your life— because I know you write about how you would like go and I think it was like picking locks and like breaking into homes and things like this— was there a moment where you realized, oh, Mm-hmm. I don't want to do this anymore? Or is it more just like, it's not worth the price I'm paying of potentially getting caught or the pain I'm causing others? Like, and what made you decide to not do those things anymore?

Well, it's interesting because I had a similar situation with my mom where she found a box in my closet full of things that I had stolen.

That wasn't yours.

Right. And she— same thing. She made me take it all back. But I remember thinking, and again, I wouldn't have had the tools at the time, but when I think back, I remember being relieved Like, yes, like, I— it was almost like, yeah, let's give it all back. I don't want this stuff. What, what I want is someone to help me. Yes. And someone to help me understand why I have this compulsion to take it. So it's like, yeah, maybe one of— can somebody help figure this out? I don't, I don't want— and also this box is getting more and more full. I don't want any of this stuff. I'm gonna have to find a— so this was actually nice. Like, great, I can— You

didn't want the things, you, you were just— it was more the Thrill, I guess, of the experience.

Yes. But it was— I had no remorse.

Yeah.

Not— and again, not like I have no remorse because I hate you and I don't care, but because I— it— I didn't really want this stuff. I, I wanted someone to help me understand why I was feeling like I had to take it. But later, when I was— I had put myself in college on what I called my disciplined acts of deviance. I called it my destruction schedule, I think. And it was just these breaking into homes and doing things regularly in the hopes of offsetting a bigger destructive act. I found that if I had this tension, this pressure I felt, and if I didn't do something to alleviate that tension—

You needed to release.

Yes.

Then it would be a big explosion.

Correct.

Wow.

So I remember doing these small— now I understand breaking into homes, everybody would say is small, but in my mind it was.

Yeah.

And I didn't ever feel like I was violating anyone. It's funny that we were talking about that before, but I never— I was never in there to take or, um, steal from them. I just— I remember sitting in these homes and that peace, just knowing somewhere I wasn't supposed to be and just being It was so still and so quiet, and I loved it. I was chasing that feeling. But yes, I remember thinking—

So you weren't like throwing everything around?

No, never. Never. That's what happened to me.

Like, I got home and everything's broken and thrown around.

Yes, but that's a violation, and that's— there is a violence to that. Yeah. That people have said, you know, well, how would you have felt? And it's like, yeah, but I didn't— they didn't know.

Yeah. And yeah,

and I, and I never— in fact, if I saw something If I saw that a stove was left on, I'd turn it off.

Right, right.

If I saw that a cat needed to be fed, I would feed the cat. I was never trying to hurt, um—

The people, yeah.

Yeah, no.

It was the thrill of the— Well,

it was the elimination of that pressure. It was like—

Interesting.

So imagine having— being in a vice and having it slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly, and breaking into one of those, like, the vice disappears, and it's like—

Really?

Oh, God, I can breathe. Yes, I would just sit in these homes.

What do you think you would've done if for 2 years you didn't do these break-ins or these little— Micro expressions?

Violence.

Like what type of violence?

Well, when I was a kid, I remember I had gone through a couple weeks, I think, maybe it was longer, where my little pressure releases weren't working, and that tension just kept. And I ended up— there was a kid next to me who was just being aggressive, and I, and I had a pencil, and I stabbed her in the head with it.

In the head?

The head or the neck. I think it was actually both. I know that sounds really crazy because, because I— it was both, but I remember— I only remember one, but I believe there—

Yeah, yeah, it might have been a couple. Yes, one can never say.

Yeah, but I remember—

How old were you?

First grade.

Uh-huh. Yeah.

Um,

wow.

Yeah, but I remember feeling like That high was intense. It was like euphoric. I understood completely that it was wrong. I understood completely that there were going to be consequences. But again,

she didn't care

because that vice was so tight.

What would you call— if you were neurodivergent, is that what you would consider yourself? Then what would you consider someone like me who's not neurodivergent? Is there a different terminology for—

No, I would consider you someone who was coping with trauma.

But what would be the terminology? If it's not neurodivergent, what is it like?

I don't— there is— I don't think there's a terminology for someone. I would say that you probably suffered from, um, CPTSD. Yeah,

yeah.

And when you're in complex— it's interesting, complex post-traumatic stress disorder is not in the DSM, and it really should be because PTSD usually speaks to those singular events. So if you think of a veteran who experienced something very specific,

one

trauma, one trauma, or, or several that they can point directly to, Whereas complex post-traumatic stress disorder, so many children suffer from that. There usually is not one, or they can point to one, but there's 9 million more where that came from.

Multiple.

So many that are—

yes.

And what happens is all of these behaviors that you're describing, think of it as your brain, like a software patch. Your brain is trying to solve the problem. Your brain is trying to—

Solve it. Yeah.

And it can't. So you're acting out in order to try and process these huge feelings and experiences that no one has taught you to process. So, I mean, not that I, you know, want to diagnose you, but I don't think there's a term so much as I would say, no, it sounds like you have some complex trauma.

Sure, sure. Well, one of the things I was thinking about is like, you know, foot— by playing sports was my release.

Oh yeah, sure.

And it was like, if I didn't— sitting in a classroom all day for 8 hours, I was like, yeah, that was my, my, my tension would build and then have practice right afterwards. It was like a way for me to like let it out and release.

Yeah.

And it was a healthy way to inflict violence on others, especially football, because it was very physical. And it was all about how do I inflict as much pain as possible? And we're also taught that. It wasn't like it was a bad thing. It was like, hurt them legally.

Yes. Right?

It's like, knock them down so they don't want to get up. You don't want to break someone's bone.

Sure.

But you want to, like, have them go sit down, you know?

Yeah.

You want them to be slower. You want them to be less like— on their game. And so everything was just about how do I inflict as much pain as possible? And it's so funny because you're taught to do that in a 3-hour window, and then all of a sudden you're supposed to be like a normal human being afterwards and be this like vulnerable, loving, like open, emotionally evolved human.

Yes.

It's just very confusing.

Yeah.

If you don't learn the tools on how to switch off your mind, switch on your mind in different contexts and settings of life. It could become an identity for people forever.

Yeah.

And if we don't learn the, I guess, the emotional or spiritual tools to release things, we're always going to be finding, defaulting back to our old ways of being, of acting out, I guess, and doing it in other ways.

Yeah. It's like whack-a-mole. You hit one, another one's going to come up.

Yeah. And this is where I'm assuming, you know, you're the therapist. I'm assuming this is where addiction stems from, whether it be alcohol, drugs, pornography, whatever it may be. Stealing, cheating, lying, whatever it is. It's like, what is the vice of choice to give someone a release?

Mm-hmm.

So how does someone, whether they're a psychopath or have trauma or they have anxiety, depression, or any type of symptoms that causes pain inside of them, how does someone truly heal to not have to have a negative vice create a release, but they can create freedom from within without needing those things.

I always say that 80% of the work is in awareness. You have to be aware of a problem before you can solve the problem.

Yeah.

And that's so much like— so many of the things you've said have started with, well, I realized that this was going on with me, and I realized that I didn't want to make these choices anymore. And that awareness, it seems to come more naturally to you based on the stories you've told and the age you were when you were having these realizations. But once you are aware, course correction, it's not easy, but it is so much more manageable. It's that awareness. And I think that's where so many people struggle is that they're making these choices and engaging in these behaviors and they don't have any mind-body connection. They don't see how their actions are a direct result of something that has happened in the past. And so it's hard, but you really can't be helped until you— I mean, it's just like anything. You have to know there's a problem.

Right.

And nobody can want it for you.

Interesting.

But once, once you are aware, once you can sit and say, oh, I am now drawing a line between this memory or this trauma and this behavior, I see what's going on. And, but in this world, everything's so fast, right? It takes some quiet, it takes some stillness. And unfortunately, we're really breeding that out of a lot of the generations. Like, no one is sitting still, everyone's on the move, everyone's doing, you know, everyone has a device in their hand. So it takes that willingness to be aware.

Now, your book is titled Sociopath. Do you still consider yourself a sociopath?

I always will, because that's what I got. That was my diagnosis. I understand that that term is no longer used. I understand that it has evolved to be other things. But without that word, I mean, that's where I— that's the word I researched. And that's the journey that I went on. And it sounds crazy to say, but I have like a soft spot in my heart for sociopath because it's Yeah, I know that word. And I remember in the research looking at it and seeing like, okay, well, this research calls it sociopath and this research calls it psychopath. And then there's this book over here. But, and I, and, and my dissertation is written on sociopathy. And, you know, today it would be written on psychopathy. But I remember it was, it was, um, for some reason Alice in Wonderland always lives somewhere in my head. I don't know why that movie had such an impact on me, but I think of it when Alice is— You know, in Wonderland, and she's following footsteps or breadcrumbs or something. And then she turns around and another little animal's come and swept them all away. And that's how I felt when it was like, well, that word doesn't exist anymore. I remember feeling like, well, what am I supposed to— now I'm just in Wonderland and I have no idea. Yeah,

but— Now I'm curious. The importance of words for you or for others. When someone claims an identity, whether it's I am smart, I am beautiful, I am ugly, I am whatever, I am a sociopath, I'm a psychopath. When someone claims I'm an alcoholic, like, does that identity impact them in a negative way if they claim an identity that I am a Versus, I was experiencing this psychopathic or alcoholic tendency for many years and now I am this. Is there power in using words to shape identity?

Completely. I think specifically though, I really don't like it when someone uses sociopathy or psychopathy as a way to justify bad behavior. Yeah, when I, um—

That's just who I am.

Well, no, just saying, yeah, I got it. I acted like a real psychopath. I tried to kill that guy. Or, you know, it's like when, when you're using these words to justify bad behavior, that bumps me. But I don't think, you know, I think it's whatever empowers you. You know, for me, having a name define why I felt or didn't feel the way I did, why I felt compelled to act out. Having that really helped. It was an anchor for me. It was like, okay, because like I said, I was like, am I just gonna wake up one morning and, and want to kill people? And I also felt so alone. Like, and—

Yeah.

When I received my diagnosis, I remember thinking— well, I remember looking out at the park and there were 25 people in the park roughly, and 1 in 25 is the— and I remember thinking, okay, so 1 in 25. So I wonder if one of those people at the park is like me. And that was empowering. Like, okay, there's others out there. There's at least enough people to justify an entire psychological category. So I'm not alone. That made me feel part of a community. Now, it's not necessarily a community everybody wants to be a member of, but—

I'm a serial killer.

No, but yeah.

There's a community of us.

But let me tell you, for someone that did feel like the loneliest whale for so long, it was like, Aha. All right, so not only are there others like me, but they're also struggling like me. And then that allowed me to empathize with other people, which really— Like you? Yes. Which then allowed me to empathize with others.

Are there Facebook groups of psychopaths? Yeah, there are.

Not Facebook, but yeah, there are.

Really? Where you guys can actually empathize with each other and be like, oh, we get it.

Yes. And I have yet to encounter anyone in these groups that is talking about nefarious behavior. I mean, outside, yes, they'll do destructive acts, but no one's in there talking about wanting to kill or wanting to maim. Like, it's not like that. And that's— which isn't to say that they don't exist, and I'm sure there are some people that are doing that, but no. Yeah.

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So how do you cope now? Now that, you know, you've studied this for a long time, you've been a part of this community, you've written about it. You know, this was your life's work. How do you ease the pain or the stress valve now versus when you were, you know, 7 years old wanting to stick a pencil on a, you know, the person next to you or something that was harmful to others? How do you release that now?

Well, so much of that was feeling like I could not be myself. I could not take this mask off. I felt so emotionally claustrophobic and that claus— that vice, that claustrophobia is what was driving that behavior. But I don't have that claustrophobia anymore because I no longer conceal who I am, how I feel or don't feel. I'm too honest. I'm hyper-honest in terms of, yeah, I can't relate to that. No, I don't really feel remorse about that. Yeah, I don't care. I'm sorry, I wish I did, but I don't. I don't hide.

It's true to you.

Yes. And because I don't hide, I don't really have those impulses anymore. And when I do, I'm aware of them. So it's like, oh, okay. There are some times where I notice the desire to act out, and it's not— desire is not the right word— where I feel like a compulsion. But I'm so aware of what's going on. It's like, okay.

You don't do it. Yeah,

I don't do it. But I also— I'll also say something to someone. I'll say, hey, I'm feeling really I'm feeling really unpredictable, dysregulated, and I, I need support. And I mean, I'll just ask for it.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah.

So how do you— I guess you have kids, you're married. How do you, I guess, connect to the people closest to you when maybe something happens to them where they feel something deeply and you inside don't feel that? How do you connect with them so that they feel like you care or that you're there with them? Or— because we want others to care in some way, right? Like, how do you do that?

By serving as a container. So for instance, my oldest really, uh, he delivered a speech on people pleasing and he wanted to read it to me. And he asked me how I felt about it. And I said, it's really interesting because this is not something that I can relate to.

You don't feel that at all?

At all.

Really?

At all.

You don't care about— you don't try to please them? Well, I guess you did when you were a kid. To not get in trouble.

That's not the same as people pleasing. You know, people pleasing is when you're, you're, you're pleasing someone else because you want to feel— you want them to like you.

Yes.

You want them to give you that attaboy.

Huh.

And, um, you want to be liked. You want to be the, the good one. Yes. You know, and I—

You don't have that at all.

At all. At all. To, to a fault, probably.

So what is the key to not being a people pleaser for the— because I would say a lot of people in the world struggle with—

yeah.

Doing things they don't want to do to please others.

Yeah.

And changing who they are to make someone else happy. So what is the key to overcoming the people pleaser disease that a lot of people have?

Well, okay, so it's a— it's— I have an answer, but I'm gonna go to what I— I've been thinking a lot about relationships and about love because I get asked a lot, you know, what is love like? Because they say psychopaths can't love or they struggle to. And that I would say, yeah, That is true in the sense that I do struggle to love the way a neurotypical person does.

So how do you love then?

So it seems to me that neurotypical people, so much of their love is tethered to their own sense of self-worth. So my biggest fear when I'm in a relationship with someone is that I'm going to hurt them in some way. Either I'm going to— my love's not going to be enough for them and they're going to feel injured as a result of my inability to meet them emotionally. It's always my biggest fear is that I'm going to hurt them. But when I talk to my neurotypical friends, their biggest fear is that they're going to be left, they're going to be abandoned. And the whole, um, interesting, the you complete me argument seems to be at play a lot in neurotypical love.

And if you're not— if you don't love me, then who am I?

Then I am somehow less than.

I'm not enough.

Yes.

And so that's when I change constantly to make you love me.

Yes. Because— and I would argue that's not love. That's you trying to build your self-esteem through a relationship with someone else.

I feel like I did that so many times when I was younger.

Yeah.

So much. Which made me feeling so resentful of myself and others in the relationship.

Yes.

And exhausted.

Exhausted.

Drained.

Completely. And I don't have that. So if, you know, I've been in situations where relationships have ended and I've been very sad, but at no point have I ever felt less than. No, my sense of self is never negatively depleted by someone else. You exist and I exist, but you do not complete me. I don't want to be in a— I don't, I don't need to be in a relationship with you. I want to be in a relationship with you. And that need component is what drives so much of people pleasing. So people pleasing, I would argue, is a subset of that dysfunctional love that has become so normalized. This, well, I want to, you know, I need you and you complete me. And I mean, women and men all over the world, that phrase, you complete me, was everywhere. And people really do use it as like a, yeah, he, you know, we complete each other.

My better half. Right.

Yes. And every time that happens, my head explodes. It's like, no, this is actually quite damaging. And I don't think you realize that. And so when I talk with my children about people pleasing, I always lean into, you have to be very careful with people pleasing because it's a slippery slope. You start needing to please others as a way to regulate yourself. And that is dangerous.

Because if you're not liked by them or if they're upset with you and you can't regulate that.

Correct.

Then you're screwed.

You're outsourcing your emotional well-being.

Wow.

And you don't realize you're doing it.

You almost have a superpower in that sense, like being a psychopath. It's like you have a superpower.

I have heard that, and I would only disagree with the fact that I have it. The truth of the matter is everybody has it. You just have to— I mean, I'm not from another planet. I have the same DNA that everyone else does. I mean, There's a reason that psychopathy hasn't been bred out of the species. Everybody has traits like this. Look no further than Traitors. People go on this show and whatever, 2 or 3 are selected to be traitors and they get so excited. And suddenly these people that go from, I can't lie, I feel so guilty, I have so much shame, suddenly they're like, I can't wait to murder and lie and steal. See, you all have it in you. You just need someone to give you permission to engage in these behaviors. Video games is another great example.

I'm going to kill everyone.

I'm going to kill everyone. And there's no remorse and there's complete lack. And so many people play video games, I would argue, because there's no emotion.

They can kind of get that release.

Yes. So it's really not my superpower.

I can kill them and no one dies.

Yes, exactly. And it's a release from emotion. It's a release. Do you think that when my kids play video games, they're worried about people pleasing in that video game? No. No.

They're screaming, they're swearing, they're, I'm gonna kill you.

And there's a liberation to that. And I think that it's not so much my superpower as it is a superpower to which everyone has access if they are willing to do the work to have the tough conversations, which is why are you people pleasing? And really taking a look at this idea of romantic love and coming to the conclusion that it's Actually quite toxic. If if you need someone to complete you, if you need to be in a relationship at all,

you're screwed.

Well, you're you're outsourcing your happiness.

So what is what is the what is the definition of people pleasing?

Needing to make other people happy in order to feel good about yourself.

Why do so many people do you think need to make other people happy to feel good about themselves? Why can't people just be good with who they are? What's the— what's wrong with society with so many people needing to do that?

I think a lot of children are raised, um, so quickly and, and in such a turbulent environment that they aren't taught how to fulfill themselves. So when I talk to my kids, I say, listen, everybody has 2 containers, okay? You have your own container that you nurture and you fill, okay, all the way to the top. And that's what you— that's how you pour into yourself. And then you have the outside container, and that outside container is what other people pour into you. Okay? And ideally, you have a full internal container and a full external container. But so many people have empty internal containers, and they're expecting other people not just to fill the external container, but to also fill the internal container. And you can't. And I've been in relationships with people like this, and it's really tough because they always want more, more, more. And it's like, but I can't. Fill this container. Only you can fill this container.

They want more from their partner, right?

Well, they want their partner to fill their internal container as well as their external container.

So hard to do.

Well, it's impossible. I can't make you feel more confident.

What do you mean by the outside container? You mean by someone's personal goals or dreams or what they're working on or their career or whatever?

Partnership, connection.

But inside, so inside container is what?

Self-worth. Self-confidence, self-belief, regulation, sustainability, tools where I'm okay. I'm okay because I'm okay.

And only you can work on your inside container.

Only you can work on your inside container.

And the outside container is you with another person.

Yes. How you— additive partnerships, collaboration, building together. But so much of what I see in relationships today are people wanting someone else To do their work.

The inside container.

Yes.

And the outside container.

You need to make me feel better about myself. You need to compliment me. You need to make me feel better. As opposed to, I look in the mirror and I think, okay, I feel good about myself. I'm going to go. As opposed to, how do you think I look? Do you think I look okay? Do you think— they need that constantly. And it's exhausting and it's depleting and it's never-ending because—

Never-ending.

I can't do that for you. You can't do that for me. We have to do that on our own. And that's what I try to teach my kids, where try to find a way where you can look at yourself in the mirror and be happy. And listen, if you go out into the world and you find somebody else that's also happy with that person, great. But at the end of the day, you are good with you.

Wow.

What if someone's not good with themselves though?

That's the whole problem. You have to get good with yourself.

Most people are not good with themselves.

I know.

So how do we learn how to develop these inner skills and tools of Self-confidence, enoughness, worthiness, lovability of what we see in the mirror, of where we're at in our lives and our careers. Like, how do we develop those?

Grace. I would say, you know, everybody has a story. Everybody knows where they came from. Everybody, everybody knows their own story. And you know your own story. So if you think, I don't like myself very much, it's like, did anyone ever teach you how to like yourself? You know, usually if I ask that question in therapy, it's waterworks, instant waterworks.

Did anyone ever teach you how to like yourself or love yourself?

Yes. Yeah. Well, that's a second. Did anyone teach you how to like yourself? Did anyone teach you how to love yourself? Yes. And it's— and, and by— and in that moment, I'm not saying, please don't cry. I'm saying, yes, let that all out. And it's mourning.

It's a life that you have to mourn.

Yes. That nobody took care of you.

That childhood.

Yes. That nobody saw you and said, hey, you're really special, and let me show you how to feel that way about yourself. Did anybody do that for you? The answer is almost always no, and you have to grieve that for a long time.

I think it doesn't happen in like one session. It might be six months to a year, years potentially. It might be an ongoing healing journey forever.

Yes, and a lot of people want to do that quick move over. Like yeah, yeah, my childhood sucked, or yeah, yeah, my dad was an alcoholic, but it's da da da da da da da. Let's let's stay there. That was probably really scary. Well, yeah, I mean, sucked, but no,

no. Yeah, everyone goes through stuff.

Everybody, yeah, everybody has a everybody has a history. I'm not talking about everybody. I'm talking about you. Let's You know,

it's you got to try a really good therapist.

Well, it's not. I'm really not so much as it's I'm just asking the questions.

Yeah, of course.

I mean, you have to do the work, and the work sucks.

It's not fun. It's not fun.

But yeah.

So what do you knowing this information? How do you teach your kids then? Or how what do you say to other parents to teach their kids about how parents can teach kids how to develop these inner tools? Like what are things you say to them constantly to reinforce? force them doing the work for themselves on their inner container?

I think a lot of it is— a lot of that is modeling. A lot of that is watching, you know, is, is making sure that I set the best example that I can, that I'm not using unhealthy coping mechanisms, that I'm not— you know, they see kids, you know, monkey see, monkey do. They see a confidence, and then they feel safe to practice their own confidence. I'm not modeling something that is unhealthy in that sense.

So it's modeling, it's not saying something to them.

It's that too. But again, how many times have you said something to somebody and they don't listen?

No, they watch you.

Yeah.

What are 3 things that you do to model for your kids to develop self-confidence?

Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, because that's confidence.

With who?

It's just anyone. So if there's If there's someone that's being disrespectful, I say something. It's funny, there was a show, I don't know if it's still on, it was on ABC for a long time. It was What Would You Do? where they brought a camera crew in and they would set up these scenarios where somebody's putting a drink. And I always used to joke, they're lucky I'm not on that show. But if I see something, I say something. I really do.

Public, you don't care.

I do not care. But there's a difference between being aggressive and being assertive.

Yeah, you say, don't do that. Yes.

Hi, this is inappropriate. Yeah. And they see that. If they're having a playdate, or you know what, a lot of times I'll hear them if they're on a call with their friends or if they're playing a video game with their friends and I hear something, I'll say, hey, you can't speak that way to people. It seems like a joke and everybody's laughing, but it's not. It's inappropriate. Mm-hmm. I want you to be a better example. And by the way, vice versa. So they've called me out sometimes where, yeah, they'll say, I didn't like the way you spoke to me, or, I wanted to talk to you about something and I feel like you blew me off. So

they're modeling it.

They're modeling it. And I would say boundaries, but also modeling apologies. There is an epidemic in this country, it seems. People don't want to apologize. For anything. And that is mind-blowing to me because if there's one thing that I teach my kids the most— Why is that? I think it's because, again, their confidence takes a hit, their pride takes a hit.

If they were wrong.

Yes. They don't want to admit to being wrong. And my take is, who cares? So that's the thing. Oh, you're a psychopath. Are you ever wrong? Do you ever apologize? I apologize all the time because my I don't have any ego attached.

Really?

Yeah. If I upset you and you say that, that really upset me, oh dude, sorry. Like,

aren't there psychopaths that do have a lot of ego attached?

For sure.

That also have a lot of narcissistic tendencies as well?

Yes. I'm not saying that there aren't people with my diagnosis who aren't terrible,

really mean

actors. Yes. But I can say the same for narcissistic personality disorder. Borderline personality disorder, you know, addiction. That people, people are all fighting some demon. I just don't want to be told that I'm a bad person because I don't experience emotion the way that somebody else does. It's not how we feel; it's what we do.

Sure, it is your actions. How does sociopaths and narcissistic come together or not?

It's such a good question. I love. answering it. So a lot of the behavior is similar. Okay, so narcissists engage, and interestingly enough, borderline personality disorder. A lot of the behavior associated with narcissism and psychopathy and borderline personality disorder, they are very similar in that they are destructive and, and often harmful to others, but they all have different motivations. So narcissists People say, oh, narcissists don't feel any shame. But actually, that's not true.

They live in shame.

That's their whole problem.

They are shame.

They are shame.

But they don't want anyone else to see that.

Because they can't process that shame. So the way that they cope with it is through grandiosity and superiority and making others feel small. Whereas psychopaths engage in destructive behavior because they don't have that. And they're— it's almost like they're trying to force a feeling.

Oh.

Borderline personality disorder, you're often dealing with— often, not always— you're often dealing with people who connection is the most important. The loss of love is unconsciously perceived as, I mean, almost lethal. So someone who has an extreme borderline personality will go to any lengths to be loved. And for them, getting you to love me is my right. So if you pull away from me, I will do anything to get you back. And it's— and, and my heart's in the right place. I just want to be loved. But it's like, but you're acting in a way that's incredibly damaging. But I'm just doing it because I want to be loved. And I have a real— it's funny, I have a real issue with intent. Um, people a lot like to say, well, that wasn't my intention. And—

But it was your action.

Who cares? You know, I, I get so fired up over the intention argument. You know, someone will say, well, it wasn't my intention to hurt your feelings. And it's like, oh, you want to get into intent? Like, I can go toe-to-toe on intent all day. Like, guess what? My intent was to hurt your feelings. At the end of the day, now your feelings are hurt and my feelings are hurt, but you're somehow better because it wasn't your intent? No, it's, it's, it's BS. It's— yeah.

Do narcissists Have the ability to apologize then, or are they less likely to apologize?

Much less likely because their ego is completely invested in needing to be correct and needing to be the best at all times in order to insulate themselves against that, that tidal wave of shame that's just waiting on the other side of the door. Yes. And narcissism, it's a— it's very difficult to treat because again,

It's almost impossible,

right? Yeah, because you have to acknowledge the shame, and that shame is, is a monster that they can't even—

Can't face. I mean, never acknowledge.

They internalize it almost. It's life or death, unconsciously. Like, they can't go near that.

So everyone else is wrong.

Everyone else is wrong.

They're never wrong.

Never wrong.

They'll never apologize, even if they did the worst things. It was never their fault. Someone else caused it.

They're always the best. Everything they have is the best. All the people are the best. Everything is perfect. Everything is better than yours. And I'm the smartest too.

That's exhausting too when you're dealing with a narcissist.

Yes.

Being manipulated by one.

Yeah. And it is, it really is. And it, and where I think where psychopathy is easier to treat, it's easier to treat because there is less emotion. Whereas a narcissist, it's all emotion.

All emotion.

Yeah.

And it's usually negative emotion.

Yes.

So the 3 things you said, the first 2 are creating boundaries, modeling Healthy apologies. Would you say most people don't apologize anymore?

They just don't apologize as a, as like a point.

Yeah.

Like as a point of people always want to be right. And my question is why?

Yeah.

Who cares? Who cares?

Well, if you, if you lack self-worth, I think it's hard to— I mean, it's like, it's hard because you're like, I'm already low self-worth. Now I'm wrong. Now I have to own up that I'm bad and wrong. Yeah. Or however you're interpreting that.

Bad and wrong.

See, that's interesting.

Yes, I can be wrong without being, you know, you can be wrong without being bad and wrong, you know? But so many people, they, they conflate the two. If I'm wrong, I'm also bad. And it's like, no, you can just be wrong. Yeah, I know.

It's the human experience.

I know. I know.

Yeah. I made a mistake a few weeks ago, maybe a month and a half ago. And right away I told Martha, I was like, I think I made a mistake. I'm really sorry. And she goes, one of the things I love about you is that you're willing to apologize. And I'm like, Yeah, I usually don't like to be wrong. Most of the time I think I'm right, but when I mess up, I'll own it. Yes.

And it's safe for the people around you, and also it's safe for you.

Yes. If you, if you're in a relationship that is safe to do that, right? That's the thing.

That is the thing.

When you've been conditioned as a child of like, oh, if you make a mistake and then you're screamed at and punished every time, you're like, uh, it's, it's traumatizing. So I've had to learn how to break that mold and create a container where it's like, I'm going to be safe no matter what. I'm going to own it. Maybe the response is not good or I have to deal with stuff, but at least I'm going to be okay.

But everything you just said was awareness, awareness, awareness, awareness, awareness. And that really is it. If you can just bring yourself to a place where you can be aware,

sure,

the change— again, it's not the easiest thing in the world, but it's That's the— that is the easy part.

Yes. So what would be the third thing? You said boundaries, modeling apologies would be the third thing that you would have parents teaching their children to develop the inner container that is healthy.

I would say something I always advise with parents dealing with antisocial kids. It's actually the same advice I would give parents of a neurotypical kid. Ask them, how does it feel when you feel? And then Give them, give those kids the space to respond in a way that you can contain. Because asking a kid, how does it feel when you feel? And allowing them to respond uncensored teaches those kids that their feelings matter and teaches them how to process those feelings. You know, so a lot of times, how does it feel when you, when you feel? If you're asking an antisocial kid, say, let's say the antisocial kid says, I feel nothing and I don't, I, and I don't care about anyone. A parent's gonna go, don't say that, or you don't mean that, as opposed to, wow, that's probably pretty lonely, huh? Like, give that kid the space and maybe—

Don't force them to feel something you would want them to feel.

Right. Don't, don't constantly measure any child against the That's

interesting.

Because that teaches a kid that the only response that is appropriate is the normal one.

And they're bad and wrong for having that feeling.

Correct.

Yeah.

And who's to say that normal emotional— who's making that decision anyway? Who came up with that metric? Like, who got to decide what's right and wrong? I don't remember sitting in on that class, but if I— my kids are neurotypical, I know how it feels when they feel. So I'll say, you know, I heard you, you know, got into a fight with so-and-so today. Yeah, he was being a real jerk. You know, how did that feel? Like, how did that— you know, well, I was really mad. It's like, yeah, I bet that, that, you know, that, that probably really sucked because you're friends, right? Yes, we're friends, and he really hurt my feelings. Okay, so now we're getting somewhere.

Okay.

Oh wow. Yeah. And just teaching these kids how to, how to identify emotions in the moment And talking through it, you're teaching a kid how to process.

In a healthier way by communicating rather than—

By communicating.

Addictions or something else.

Right.

Or reacting with anger or rage or something.

Right. Because there are so many kids that they don't have— they have so many feelings, but they don't have any place to put those feelings and they don't have anybody asking them. Or maybe they have somebody asking them how they feel, but they don't really have anybody listening, you know?

Saying, oh, it's going to be okay, or whatever. They're dismissing it or they're just, oh, we'll just move on.

Or wanting to make it better immediately.

Quickly.

And that's the thing. It's like if you're constantly wanting to make tough emotions better for your kids quickly, you're not teaching them how to deal with their own emotions.

What is more dangerous for a parent? Asking your kids how you feel and then shutting them down quickly because you can't handle their emotions, or never asking them how you feel in general?

I honestly don't know. I honestly don't know the answer to that, because if you ask them how they feel and then you shut them down, what you're teaching them is their feelings don't matter. But if you don't ask them at all, you're teaching them that they don't matter.

Oh, man.

Right?

You're screwed up either way.

Yeah.

You're screwed up either way.

Yeah. And a lot of parents, again, it comes back to, well, I didn't mean that. It's like, I don't care what you meant. Intention. Yes. Who cares? And I remember growing up, it was a lot of the it could be worse rationalization.

Yeah, of course.

And I remember in LA, my house burned down. And nobody died. And I remember everybody, well, it could be worse. It could be worse. And I remember thinking, yeah, it could be worse, but this is pretty bad.

It's bad. Yeah.

And it

could be worse. Yeah. But this is horrible stuff.

But it was just like people wanting to move on. They don't want to— it could be worse. Look on the bright side. That whole argument. No, it's like, sit with somebody. And just because it could be worse doesn't mean that what they're going through isn't really valid. And so many people— and I saw it happen again. In this recent— with the Palisades fire.

So many houses.

So many houses. And that was the first— well, did anybody die? Well, at least there's— it's like, no. So yes, somebody did die. Their house died. Their life died.

Yes, their identity, everything. The community.

Yes. You're trying so hard to move past it because you can't sit with it. But these people just lost everything. And I know what that feels like. But even if I didn't, I could imagine it. You know, not being able to go back, like all your stuff, all of your memories, like that's no small thing.

Why is it so hard for human beings to sit with other people's emotions when something traumatic or challenging happens in their lives? And how can we learn how to be with someone else's emotions so it's a safe container for them?

I think Western civilization in particular, we really like to Keep it moving.

Sweep it under the rug.

Look no further than death. You know, we're one of the only civilizations where death is like somebody dies, somebody comes and takes them, puts some makeup on them, slaps some lipstick, pretty dress. Whereas other cultures, you sit with that body, you dress that body, you, you are present for that transition. But I think so much, particularly in America, is no, no, no. Nothing to see here. And I think that that trickles down to emotion where so many, particularly in the boomer generation, they tell, well, we didn't talk about those things. We didn't talk about that. It's like, yeah, I can tell you didn't. When you're not acknowledging emotion, how in the world are you learning to sit with emotion for somebody else, much less yourself? And it takes practice. It takes It takes the ability to say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa! No, we're not just gonna move past it." You know, I I was talking to somebody who had a child. It was like the nineties. A classmate had found a gun in their parents' house and accidentally killed themselves. And one day that kid was in class, and the next day he wasn't, and nobody talked about it.

Shut up.

Can you imagine that today?

Just moved on.

Moved on because it was too much. They can't. The kids can't take it. They can't handle it. They can't handle it. It's like no, actually what they can't handle.

Little Johnny's just.

Gone. Moved away. No discussion of it whatsoever. And I hear that so often, um, in terms of like, and it'll come out casually, you know, like we said, it's just like, oh yeah, I had a brother. He died. Um, yeah, it was actually quite, quite awful. Uh, he died in a car accident. I watched the whole thing. Um, but yeah, we don't, we don't talk about it. And it's like,

when someone isn't willing to talk about a traumatic event, what are they really saying?

Well, they, they're, they haven't been taught to, because remember that child didn't make that decision. The parents made that decision. So then they're teaching that child, we don't talk about things like that. When something bad happens, you turn the page, you bury it, you turn the page.

How bad is that for our nervous system?

Horrible. Horrible. Because there is no nervous system regulation. You know, like that book, it says, The Body Keeps the Score, and all of that trauma is stored somewhere. And what you want to do is have uncomfortable conversations because uncomfortable conversations, quite frankly, they're not that uncomfortable. It's just people don't want to do it. They'd rather lie. I mean, I, I've talked about this before. Um, I had a very toxic, uh, family member when I was a kid, and I remember sitting across from this guy at, you know, Christmas, Thanksgiving, and something was up with this guy. Like, no.

Really? You felt it? You're like—

Yes. And this was a child predator.

Wow.

And I remember saying things like, something's off, and How dare you say something like that? That is your uncle. You respect him. And as a kid being like, respect this.

You had a lot of balls. That's good.

Listen, I never flipped off my grandmother, but I remember thinking inside, like,

courage.

I see what's going on here and I actually will not be respecting him. What I will do is I'm going to disappear. I'm not going to be anywhere.

Most kids don't have that courage to stand against authority when they're 8.

But I Didn't see it as courage. I saw it as hypocrisy. Again, it was like, so I can't lie. I have to follow all these rules, but you can sit across from me and we're all going to pretend that this guy isn't a major problem.

Wow.

And I remember, but I couldn't. I mean, I was young. So like, yes, I sit here across from you and I act like, but I really couldn't say those things. So what I would do is whenever he was around, I would take my sister and we would go for a walk and I wouldn't come back until he was gone. Because And I remember feeling so much rage at the rules of lying. They only seem to apply to me, but all of you, because you don't want to confront some really problematic truths, which is this guy is a major problem. And kids are just taught— I mean, I can't tell you how many friends I have who suffered horrific physical and sexual abuse, and they were just—

They never spoke about it, or they—

Never.

So you're— you have the ability to speak about all these things pretty openly, like anything that's traumatic or emotional, I guess you can talk about them.

If anything, too much. Maybe that's something I— that's, that's some feedback I received.

So, so, so as a self-diagnosed sociopath—

No, not self-diagnosed. I was diagnosed.

Diagnosed, but self-proclaimed, I guess.

Well, yeah, I mean, it's my— it's, it's a personality disorder. That's what it, you know.

It sounds like you can navigate emotions better than most neurotypical individuals who sweep things under the rug.

Right. Because they don't— emotions don't affect me that way. So I completely understand. I understand why somebody would not want to have open something that's painful. I can't relate to it, but I can understand it. But my response is, well, you gotta, because think of it like a hose. If you have a hose and there's water running, if you plug the end of that hose, you think that water is just going to— no, it's going to find another way out. And then if you— okay, well, I'll just slap some tape on, then it'll find another. It does not just go away.

Pressure keeps coming.

Yes. You know, sexual abuse, whether you talk about—

It's coming out.

Yeah, it's coming out in lots of ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's awful. Yeah. I mean, of course, because you are a person and you are existing in a body, that is screaming for treatment, for help, for release. So, you know, the mind likes, has a lot of ideas on, you know, oh, we're, we just bury that. It's like, well, gosh, that body ain't buried.

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Listen, I have a lot of compassion. You said the thing is grace, you know, having grace for yourself. And I have a lot of compassion for a lot of people now, knowing the amount of self-imposed, I guess, pain I put on myself, internal pain and conflict. and probably external pain and conflict I put on myself growing up because I didn't have the emotional tools to regulate processing a lot of stuff. You know, my parents' divorce, my brother being in prison, but the sexual abuse that I faced was probably the hardest because I never spoke about it.

Yeah.

I thought I was worthless. I thought I would never amount to anything. I thought no one would love me. Right. And that's probably the biggest fear of every human being. It's like, no one's gonna love me if they knew this about me. How could someone love me if they knew this about, you know, it's like all these concerns. And when I turned 30, I started opening up about it for the first time. So for 25 years, for 25 years, you know, I never spoke about it, but it would every day would just like run like a movie inside my mind and in my body. I'd just replay it, you know, and then try to numb it in different ways. Yeah. Sports, girls, whatever, business, money, you know, all these things until I learned how to release it and talk about it. And once I communicated it for the first time, it felt like I was going to die. Like, I felt like my life is over. No one's going to talk to me. Like, my business is done, everything. But that's really when life began.

Yes.

Like, life began the moment I spoke about my experience, my painful experience, and not minimizing it, not saying, well, other people had it worse. Well, it could have been worse. It could have, you know, it was only this one time. It could have been every day for a year, like not minimizing any part of it, like you said, but actually like being in the experience of it and, and letting the emotions out.

Mm-hmm.

Which was scary for me, but it was like the beginning of a healing journey that has allowed me to have incredible peace and freedom that didn't happen overnight. But now it's like I have this peace and freedom and a truer self-confidence About my internal container that you talked about. Whereas before, I would people-please a lot.

Yeah.

Then after, I learned how to create more boundaries.

Yes.

But I didn't have those tools. Sure.

You

know, I didn't have that. And so I have compassion for— because 1 in 4 women have been sexually abused and 1 in 6 men. When we have the awareness that we can share about anything, whether it be sexual abuse or any type of pain, it is a massive release, like you said.

Yes.

And having a safe container to talk about it. So the, the power that you're talking about of these 3 things— creating boundaries, modeling apologies, and how does something make you feel when something happens to you— a lot of the time we don't have the ability to express our feelings in a healthy way. And when we do, I really feel like the world can heal.

Yeah.

When we're able to have that. I think it's gonna be harder with social media, with AI, with how fast everything is. Like you said, most of us don't take the time or the space to sit with our thoughts and our feelings and allow ourselves to process. Mm-hmm. Because it takes time.

Yeah, it really does.

And it takes minimizing distractions, not being on your phone, not watching TV, and sitting with it.

Yeah.

Sitting with someone else or a small group or yourself. Journaling, processing, however you want to therapeutically release these things takes time.

And what it also takes is the ability to prioritize self.

Oh, yes.

Which is also, you know, you're burying the lead a little bit there, but I would argue that you had enough sense of self-worth to understand at 13 that you needed to go.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And that's—

I didn't know why.

Yes, but you just like— You lobbied for yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You advocated for yourself.

I'm not safe. I need to get out.

Right. And that's— if I had a 4th thing, I would say that learning how to advocate for yourself as a child is critical. Being able to say, I don't want this for myself anymore, is a complete sentence. That's it.

What if you're a parent and you're like, okay, they just don't wanna have a disciplined life, or they don't want this thing, but I know as a parent that it's gonna be better for them in the future.

Give me an example. All

right. My parents want me to go to music lesson after school.

Oh, well, sure.

You know, something like that where it's like, no, I don't want this anymore.

Right. I think

the difference between— yeah, I don't know.

I was talking to somebody yesterday who said such a cool thing. She was talking about quitting and she said that someone told her, you're not allowed to quit on a bad day. You got to— if you want to quit, you got to quit on a high.

And what'd she say?

And she said it was life-changing for her because it's like, yeah, you can quit anytime you want as long as you're not quitting on a bad day.

Interesting.

So, but, you know, I think there's nuance. Obviously, if I'm, you know, dealing with my kids and they're what they don't want for themselves anymore is school.

Yeah, okay.

Well, unfortunately it doesn't work for that one. But saying, I don't feel comfortable around that person. Teaching kids how to listen to their bodies. I was talking with a friend 2 days ago and he was saying, yeah, I'm kind of learning for the first time to pay attention to how my body feels when I'm around people. And I'm noticing that there are a lot of people in my life that my body does not feel good around.

Interesting.

And I'm learning to say, yeah, I don't think I'm gonna hang out with that person anymore. And so many people feel like they need to add to that sentence or that statement, like, I don't wanna hang out with them anymore, I have to justify it, I, I have to explain why. You don't. There are lots of people who— I don't like that person.

Yeah.

And it's—

Something's off.

Something's off. And I don't have to justify it beyond that. And I think, I think that A lot of parents talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk. You know, they'll say, you know, you tell me if if you know if anything ever makes you uncomfortable or any.

But then they're in a marriage that's broken.

Exactly.

It has no boundaries.

Yes.

And they've you know.

Well, what they're saying is unconsciously, I want you to let me know if anybody makes you uncomfortable as long as it's not inconvenient for me. It's really.

Right.

And they don't realize it, but that's what it is. And I think teaching kids pay attention to how your body feels when you're around somebody. You'll notice those. like, I don't like this. And no is also a complete sentence. And learning that, learning how to listen to instinct, especially in today's world where it's so chaotic and things are going so quickly, if you can teach kids how to listen to that little voice, it's like you always know, your body knows, your body is 10 steps ahead of you because we're animals, right? We have instincts that are suppressed because we're now civilized and we do things. Right. But everybody, everybody has met that person at some point and gone, No,

something's off.

Yeah.

So tell me a little bit more about shame, because isn't it good for us to have some shame?

Yes.

It's like good for us to— oh yeah, do bad things, right?

Yeah.

But a narcissist is filled with shame.

Unconscious shame.

Unconscious. Okay. Unconscious.

Oh yeah, they would. Yeah. A narcissist will tell you they're not ashamed of anything.

But it's like in their body. Yeah. And then so how much shame should we Have, you know, how much is too much or not enough? And is it good to have shame? And I guess as a psychopath, do you experience shame? How does that work?

I don't. And,

and so it's good to have.

I do think it's good to have. I do think, I mean, everything in moderation, right?

Sure, sure.

I think that these constructs like holistically serve a really good purpose. Guilt in moderation is really, it's important to have guilt, but if it's all day

long,

That's the problem, is that these tools, I think, have been utilized particularly by religion to keep people in check, and they've become overly utilized.

Right.

You know, there have been lots of times where it's— where I've thought to myself, yeah, shame would have been helpful in that. Like,

maybe I should add a little shame there.

Yeah. Like, I can see how that could have saved me, you know, a few steps.

Yeah. Yeah. You just have no shame if you do something that you know is bad. Would you have any shame?

No. I have— intellectually, I can say I should not have done that, but it's not a feeling.

You don't feel it?

No.

If you intentionally hurt someone's feelings or do something, you steal from someone or whatever, you won't feel shame?

I really don't steal.

Right. I'm just saying, hypothetically, you were going to go and like, you knew this was not your property and you were going to steal this cell phone from someone or whatever. You wouldn't feel shame?

No.

What would you— what would you—

If I'm gonna do something like that, I'm gonna find— I'm gonna justify it. And whether that justification is right or wrong, I'm just really thinking about it. And I really—

You think I'm doing something wrong? Yeah. Well, you think I am wrong?

Yes.

Or I'm doing something wrong?

Both.

So you'll think I am wrong, I'm doing something wrong, but I don't feel any shame about it? I don't give a shit. But there will be consequences potentially if you get caught. And also if you don't get caught, is there a consequence internally for you?

No.

Is there a consequence for your soul?

No. But that is why I work really hard to be disciplined because I don't—

What about your nervous system? Is there a consequence

for you? No. In fact, no. If anything, it's like, let's go. Which is why—

It's like freedom.

Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's, you know, it's a slippery slope in that because I know that I don't have these things, they are, they're like security blankets or, or, or, uh, safety nets. Okay. People, you know, I think rely on things, constructs like shame and guilt too much. They rely on those things to keep them in line.

What do you rely on?

Internal philosophy.

And I think moral code.

Yeah. Interesting. And there's a lot of argument on, you know, how I said before, it has to come from the heart. And it's like, and I often quote Penn Jillette. Somebody had asked him, well, because he's a famous atheist, and somebody said, well, if you don't believe in God, what's to stop you from hurting people all you want? And he said, I do hurt people all I want. It's just that that amount is zero. And I really responded to that because it's like, well, without shame or guilt, what's to stop you from stealing and killing people all you want? And I think I do still steal and kill people all I want. That amount is zero. Because

you have a philosophic code internally.

Yes. I think relying on constructs like shame, guilt, remorse, or God, if those are the things you're relying on to keep you in line, again, it's a self-damning argument. Yeah. So what you're saying is you have no control. You're saying that I would do these things, but I would feel too guilty. I would steal, but I would feel too guilty. And what I'm saying is, well, I don't steal because I don't steal. Not because—

Is it because you don't want to steal, or is it because you know it's wrong, or because it's—

I really, I don't have a— I don't really, I don't. I don't have a— because again, it's like logic. It's like, well, what's that going to get me? And there was a long time where I was really attracted to vigilante actions.

Like what?

Well, I was thinking like when I would steal, this woman was Oh, she was awful. She was just the worst. She's one of those just really awful humans, just constantly being nasty, constantly taking advantage of people. And I remember stealing from her and feeling just so good about it.

Yeah.

And literally just taking the thing I stole and handing it to someone on the street because I didn't want

it. Yeah.

But it felt— it was— and I remember thinking—

It's like justice.

It was. And I, and I remember thinking, I— this could— this is a slippery slope. I could get used to this. Like, I could find— I could justify doing bad things

with everything.

Yeah. Because, and it's like, because I'm, because again, I, my intent is not to do harm. My intent is I don't want this thing. I just, I want, I don't like that you're doing this. Yes. And I don't have these constructs keeping me aligned. And I'm also charming and I can get really close to you and I can get you to trust me. Meanwhile, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stick it to you so hard. You're not gonna see it coming. Wow. That can be seductive for someone.

Wow.

And I would also argue that I was probably— that desire to do that was stemming from a place of feeling, of like, on my own feelings of unfairness. You know how everybody is allowed to basically do whatever they want? They can lie. But because I'm sociopathic, I'm automatically evil. You know, it's like, but you're doing these things. You know, I'm never allowed to lie. You know, we have the— I've mentioned this before, but— I often use the Santa Claus example, how we're never allowed to lie. Don't lie.

But then—

What is— Treats, fairies, Santa Claus. This whole situation over here where we're creating not just one lie—

Fantasy world.

But a whole world. And when that world is revealed as a farce, again, it's like, oh, it's fun. No, I have to be honest with you. It's not fun. I remember when I found out.

How old were you?

It was like kindergarten.

It's like 5 or 6.

It was so funny. You know, my mother, she broke down because she couldn't handle it, the lying. She felt too guilty, and she was like, I have to tell you something.

Santa's not real.

And I was pissed. Yeah, I

was

pissed. I'm like, what?

Why'd you lie to me?

Like, see, no reindeer either? No. Oh, what about the tooth fairy? And the Easter Bunny, like, you're all liars. All of you are liars, every single person on the street. And I remember it was—

They're hypocritical too.

You're all hypocrites. So I think a lot of the stuff that I would engage in was that the vigilante slippery slope was coming from a place of wanting to balance those scales.

I can see that.

Does make sense. But again, take a foster kid.

Yeah,

take someone without every imaginable privilege. You know, they're not coming at it from a place of acknowledgment. They're coming at it from a place of survival. Yes. And I am going to burn it all.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

To the ground.

Yeah. We've got a fascinating book, uh, it's called Sociopath: A Memoir by Patrick Gagne. They can get the book right now. They can follow you on social media as well. It's @PatrickGagne, correct? Yeah. Where else can people follow you or support you besides the book and on social media?

There's a great organization. It's the Society for the Prevention of Disorders of Aggression, but it's a nonprofit that's basically aimed at directing people who struggle with antisocial personality disorders, sociopathy, and psychopathy. It's an incredible resource that offers diagnostic tools, a list of clinicians that specialize in this work, YouTube videos, research studies. And I've directed a lot of people there. It's an incredible organization. It's the only organization that is aimed at helping people.

Yeah.

So, you know, it's when you ask, how would— could you support me? It's— I would say you can support me by supporting this community. That needs it.

Awesome. We'll link that up as well.

Yeah, you know, it's the woman that, uh, runs it, Abby. She is, um, a neuroscientist at Georgetown, and she works with peop— with children, um, who are antisocial. And she is phenomenal in her dedication to helping screen these kids and get them the treatment that they need before the disorder progresses. And if we had more resources for researchers and scientists like her We would have less of this issue.

That's great. How does someone spot a sociopath or a psychopath, whether they're dating someone, whether they're in a relationship for a period of time, whether it's a potential business partnership they're getting into? Is there ways to spot this?

Not in the ways that, you know, the fun questionnaires like to suggest, but I would say behavioral tells, you know, are gonna, are gonna be a big clue, but I, I really try to steer clear of diagnosing just on behavior because not everybody acts the same.

Yeah.

But where we are going to be the same is, um, emotional affect. You're looking for somebody who doesn't experience emotion in a neurotypical way. And asking that question, how does it feel when you feel, is a really powerful question if they're willing to be honest. If you're willing to have that conversation and if someone believes that you are willing to accept them for what they are able to feel and not feel, and you're not gonna clutch your pearls the second they start talking, If you're not going to judge everything against neurotypical reactions and emotions, if you can be that container, you're likely to get more honest answers. Yeah.

Okay, cool. Uh, this is a question I ask everyone towards the end. Uh, it's called the 3 Truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. You get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day on earth.

Okay.

You get to create and do everything that you imagine from this moment until then. But for whatever reason, on the last day, you have to take all of your work with you. The book has to go, this conversation, anything you create, it's not in this world anymore. It has to go with you when you pass.

Okay.

But on the last day, um, you get to leave behind 3 lessons to the world that we would get to keep, we would remember. I call it 3 truths. What would be those 3 truths for you?

There's nothing inherently evil about limited access to emotion. 2, It's not what we feel, it's what we do.

Mm-hmm.

3, it's already yours.

What?

Whatever. Whatever you want, it's already yours. If you can operate from a place of, yeah, it's already mine, then you don't have to live in want. You don't have to live in need. It's already yours. Operate from a place of fulfillment now, not I will be when. But it's already yours.

How do you do that in your life? If there's something you want that you don't have now, how do you say it's already mine even though it's technically not yet?

Well, it's interesting because one of the hallmarks of a, or one of the traits of psychopathy is unrealistic life term or unrealistic life goals. And I always say, well, I would argue with the word unrealistic because my goals might seem unrealistic to a neurotypical person because that's because I don't internalize failure.

Mm-hmm.

So when I was starting out with the book and they said, what do you want? I was like, I'm gonna have— I want this, this, this, this, and this. And they said, well, that's no. And I said, no, it's— that's what it's gonna be. You don't have to believe it, but it's— I've decided that that's how it's gonna be and that's what it is. And I understand that that's because of my personality. It's unrealistic, it's unreasonable. I sound like an insane person, but it's not coming from a place of I'm the best, I'm gonna have it 'cause I'm the best. I'm going to have it because I have so much pride or so much— it's no, it's already mine. I already have it. It's just a matter of time before you understand that I already have it.

Mm-hmm.

And, and it's funny because somebody said, well, that's like manifestation. And I read about it. I was like, oh, you know, it's funny. It is manifestation. But when I started looking at manifestation, it's like all these suggestions, these are all psychopathic traits. You know, this is, this is basically a psychopathic point of view where it's, well, don't worry about what other people think. I don't. Don't worry about failure. I don't. Ask for whatever you want and don't think about being in trouble. Don't think about it not being available. I would never think about that.

Interesting.

Right. So, when I approach something, as long as it's never anything like I want something horrible to befall someone, but it's something where I can help other people like me, it's very matter-of-fact. There's no emotion to it. It's, this is what's going to happen next.

That's interesting.

Yes.

So, it's almost like Healthy psychopathic traits is the ultimate key to manifestation.

I would— yes.

What would be the main traits that psychopaths have that allow them to manifest whatever they want in a healthy way?

Uh, we don't internalize failure.

Most people are afraid to fail and they don't act.

Because it's tied to emotion. Okay.

Interesting.

Which is not the same thing. And it's so important. To understand that doesn't mean we don't fail. I fail all the time.

Right, right. But you don't internalize, I am a failure.

No.

Or, I'm bad and wrong, or, no one loves me, no one likes me.

No.

Which is what most people struggle with.

Correct. They

can't deal with the judgment.

Right. Where it's the same thing as what's wrong with admitting wrongdoing? What's wrong with failing? Who cares? Let's do it again. Let's say it again.

Interesting.

Before I wrote this, I had wanted to release— I wanted to write a book, basically a sociopath for dummies. And my publisher was like, no, people want the stories. And I didn't— a memoir, sure. But I mean, yeah, I guess that was a failure. But I— okay. It wasn't something that I was attached to emotionally. And I think that's really the number one thing to succeed is that if you're not afraid to fail, You're also not afraid to take risks. I'm not risk-averse. Again, which isn't to say that I— that doesn't mean I want to screw people out of money or cheat my way to the top, but it's like, no, I'll take a risk. Because what's a risk? Looking foolish? Looking goofy?

You don't care if you embarrass yourself or look foolish?

No. I wrote a book talking about how I broke into people's homes and stole cars. And I remember so many people saying, well, How does your how has your life changed? You know, now that you've admitted all these things, it's like I had I had already admitted to them. Like well, now the whole world knows. Okay, I don't care. You know, it's like people talk about staying out of the comments. It would never occur to me to read a comment. I really no.

You don't care about the opinions of others,

good or

bad. Really?

Yeah. And it's and to say I don't care, it's not because that can be interpreted in a callous way. It just doesn't affect me in either way.

It doesn't affect you.

It doesn't. I don't get any information from that.

Hmm.

Now, when people write to me and ask for help with their kid, or when I've received— I mean, I received thousands upon thousands of messages and letters and emails from people saying that they feel seen and they're so happy that they don't feel like they have to engage in as much destructive behavior. That means something to me because it's what I set out to do, right? I wanted others like me to feel less alone. I wanted others other neurotypical people to feel like I'm not crazy. Um, so that means something to me. Well,

I want to acknowledge you, Patrick, for opening up about all this stuff because I think you've helped a lot of people.

Same.

Like you said, to

you,

because there's not really much information out there about this stuff. And so I acknowledge you for— and maybe in your mind it's not vulnerable— but opening yourself up and sharing with the world and then, and showing people a different perspective of this neurodivergent Diagnoses that you've had.

Yeah.

And that you've experienced. And also showing people that it's not like you're not the boogeyman.

No.

You know, and not every psychopath or sociopath who has been diagnosed as that is the boogeyman. Correct.

They're extremes.

They're extremes.

But there's extremes with anything.

Yes, exactly. So thank you for all that you've done here.

Thank you.

I've got one final question. Yeah. What's your definition of greatness?

Awareness.

Awareness.

Yeah. Right?

Yeah, absolutely. There you go, Patrick. Thank you for being here.

Thank you very much, my friend.

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