Why Women Lose Desire Faster in Marriage | Esther Perel

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There's something really interesting about this country in relation to sexuality. There is an enormous taboo on sex education rather than the understanding that it is actually the repression that will unleash a kind of sexuality that is often about smut and titillation.

A psychotherapist, best selling author, one of the most prominent authorities on relationships, Esther.

Perel I think there's a number of things in a relationship that become the cornerstones of the demise. Indifference and contempt and neglect and violence. I'm not talking about big violence. Microaggressions are plenty.

So how do we even get to.

This place after having been so in love and so romantic? Right? There's only two relationships that resemble each other.

Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness podcast. I'm very excited about our guest today. Thank you so much for being here. Esther Perel It's a pleasure. You've got an amazing book called Mating in Captivity Unlocking Erotic Intelligence. And so make sure everyone go and Check out this book. We'll have it linked up at the end of the show. Notes as well. I became aware of you before Summit Series. I remember hearing about this book and who you were, but I never really dove into your work until Summit series happened, which is a conference for essentially inspiring entrepreneurs and people looking to take over the world in their own industry.

I call it the mixture of Ted Davos and Burning Man.

There you go. Yes, exactly. That type of people, that type of crowd. And you spoke. You were supposed to speak at, like, a little tiny restaurant on this cruise ship. And I remember going to this and, like, just the line outside, we couldn't even get in. So I remember experiencing that being like, oh, I hope she, you know, talks again. And then you talked, like, four more times. And so I showed up early for, like, one of the few. The few ones after that, and it took, like, an hour for you to start because there was, like, thousands of people out waiting to try to get in this one session. And so I said, okay, there's something here, this conversation about relationships, sex, desire, love, intimacy, erotic intelligence, what you call. And there's something here that we're struggling with in our society today, and especially with driven, passionate entrepreneurs who are always up to the next big thing, the next shiny object. And so I'm glad that you were able to come in here and be in the studio in la. And thank you for being here. And the first question I want to ask before we actually get into all of these juicy relationship questions, is, who was the most influential person growing up for you in your childhood, and what was the thing that influenced you about them?

Oh, the most. I'd never have one for these kinds of questions.

Well, what's one that maybe comes to mind, someone who was really influential in a lesson they taught you?

I will start with the most close person. I would say my father. Why? My father was illiterate. My father and my mother, actually, both of them came to Belgium by chance, after each of them being four and five years in concentration camps in Poland. They both were the sole survivors of their entire family. They came with absolutely nothing. They were illegal refugees for five years before they even became legalized. And my father always was a person who said, it doesn't matter how brilliant they are or how rich they are. What matters the most is how decent they are. And when you are in a concentration camp, you get to see the limits of a person's humanity and the stretch and the outreach of a person's humanity and their decency. And for some reason, that always stayed with me. Meaning don't get impressed by all the appearances and by how everything looks. Look at the person. And then he said, and a friend is the person who will always do more for themselves, for the other, as they will do for themselves. That's your friend. And check people out on that basis. And he had never read a book. He couldn't read and write pretty much. He read the newspaper, he spoke five languages, but poorly. And he was a grand human being. And I often, often think of him in relation to that, especially when I come into the entrepreneurial world, which is often a world of inflated selves.

Exactly, yeah. Now, what was your. What would you say is your biggest fear growing up? Did you have a big fear insecurity? That was a challenge for you?

Yes. I grew up in the Flemish part of Belgium and on the one hand I had nothing to fear on the external level, but I think that the history of my parents was such that I always lived with the feeling that can disappear from one minute to the next. I had no sense that what we have is here to stay. I have never thought in terms of permanence. I happen to be born in Belgium. By the fluke of our fatality, I don't really belong to a place and for a long time I felt very uprooted by that. Now I think it actually became also a resource for me in my life. But at the time, that sense that, you know, you cannot count on anything to be there tomorrow just because it's there today.

Right, okay.

That sense of fragility and impermanence and the dread, it wasn't fear, it was dread.

Do you still have that dread today?

Yes, yes, I do, I do. It's not a visible dread, but yes, I have free floating anxiety that I can't always pinpoint on certain things, but I live with a sense that actually when everything goes really well, that's what.

You'Re afraid the most, because it can all be taken away the next day.

Right. And I, of course, never think that if I go to the doctor, I'm going to come out with a small boo boo. I think that the day I have something, since I've always been really blessedly healthy, that the day I get something, it will be a big boo boo. I mean, I have a bit of catastrophic thinking.

Okay, how does that.

Even though I act completely counterphobe, I act like I have no fears, but inside there is that little voice that just.

So how do you.

How does that work for you? How does that support you in your day? To day work and your relationships by having that dread sense, that feeling. Does it work for you or not?

You know, it changed over time. I think at with age. You used to. You take your strengths and your weaknesses and you tweak them, you know, back and forth. But I think that it. It has always made me. Well, I'll tell you the first thing. Because of the history of my parents, because I in any way was kind of a miracle child, my brother too. Because we were symbols of revival and because it proved to our parents that they still were human in a way, that they could still bring people into the world. I always had a clear sense that my life was not going to be small. Sure, my life has to be big. Big doesn't mean successful and money. Big meant meaningful, rich, layered, you know.

It'S not necessarily well known or famous, but feeling full. Full, full. Yeah. Not dead.

Not dead. I mean, there's a reason I write about eroticism, right. And that sense that I was not going to be mediocre, you know, I'm. I'm not content with just the average of something that it has to be not the best. It has to be the right one for me at that moment. That may be the beautiful spot or the. The right friend to be with or the right act to take to somebody or to some cause. But that sense that my life has to be big, I like it, you know, has been with me since I was sure.

Sure. Okay, so. So tell me why you wrote this book and why you got into, I guess, this topic in general. What made you want to start to bought this?

You know, the funny thing is it's a fluke, actually. I never wrote about sexuality until about 10, 12 years ago. I did write about relationships, plenty of. For the past 30 years, I've been a couples therapist and a relationship expert. I work with companies, I work with families and couples on modern relationships. And that always involved looking at how does cultural change affect relationships? Migration, education, technology, individualism, consumer society. How do all these things, the shift from communism to democracy. How do we big cultural changes affect relationships? Always been doing that. Sex was a kind of a side subject. And then I was basically a little bit looking for a new topic and. And I got inspired by the Clinton scandal.

Okay, basically when was that?

That was in the late 90s, but it moved all the way into the beginning, 2000. I don't remember the exact year, but the Clinton Lewinsky scandal for me, from a cultural point of view was very interesting. Why was the United States so tolerant about multiple divorces and so intransigent about infidelity. The rest of the world and I just spoke to 4,000 people in Mexico a couple of months ago, and it was so important to watch this difference. It was the complete contrast to the state has always opted the other way around. You preserve the family at all cost, thanks to women. And you make compromises and tolerance for infidelity.

Really?

Yes.

All over the world. All over the world, Especially in Europe. It's like everywhere. Married man seems to have, like a mistress.

No, it's very clear. Americans don't cheat one iota less than the French.

Say it again.

Americans do not cheat one iota less than the French. They just feel more guilty about it.

The French are just. It's just well known. It's just part of life. Right.

It's not part of life. It is changing a great deal. And it's clear that most of the time throughout history, there has been a complete double standard when it comes to infidelity. It's a privilege for men. It's almost a sanctioned license with all kinds of theories, revolutionary and biological theories that justify their need to roam. And it's been way too dangerous for women. But that doesn't mean that, you know, you give the woman a car and then you'll see what she will really do.

Right.

You know, if you don't trap her into the house.

Right, right, exactly.

Adultery has always existed. But what was interesting for me was how people would scream at it here, make it a matter of national political agenda and not blink an eye at multiple divor which create the dissolution of the entire family system. Why is that so much preferable to the other? That was the original question. And then I began to think a little bit more about. Okay, that leads me to think about Americans and sex. There's something really interesting about this country in relation to sexuality that fascinates me. I've been working here for almost 30 years at the time. And why is it that in the US sex is the risk factor and in Europe being irresponsible is the risk factor? Sex is a natural part of human development.

Okay, what do you mean by irresponsible?

Not being protective.

Gotcha.

Not being respectful.

Gotcha.

Not being consensual or actually the act.

Of doing it was part of normal life. Yeah.

We have comprehensive sex education from age 4. Why is it that here you have no public health policy on adolescent sexuality? Why is it that despite that no campaigns and abstinence campaigns, Americans have earlier onset of sexual activity than the most liberal Dutch? More STDs and more teen pregnancies than 35 developing countries combined.

Why is that? It's because we're not educated early on.

Because there is an enormous taboo on sex education with the kind of sense that if you educate people, they're going to be promiscuous, rather than the understanding that it is actually the repression and the puritanism that will unleash a kind of sexuality that is often about smut and titillation. So I basically wrote a little article in a trade magazine, not even in the general. Then it got taken into the broad press and it led to this book, which is translated in 26 languages. And hence I became. Now suddenly I didn't just look at relationships and culture, but I look at the triangle. Sexuality, relationships and culture. Using sexuality to analyze societal changes, cultural changes, families, relationships and the individual self.

What are the core reasons or the core things you see over and over that either end or make a relationship challenging to be in the longer you're in? What are the. What are the ones that. What are the challenges that come up over and over that you see?

So there's always three questions, right? What's a thriving relationship?

A thriving one, yeah.

What can go wrong and how do you fix it? Okay, so you started with the middle question, what goes wrong? Yes. I think there's a number of things in a relationship that, that, that become the. The kind of cornerstones of the demise. Okay. And I'm not going to list them in order, but they all are part of each other. Indifference and contempt and neglect and violence are probably the four most important.

Okay.

I'm not talking about big violence. Microaggressions are plenty. Indifference, when you start to feel like the other person fundamentally is not really caring about you anymore, or you don't care about them, what they feel, what they think, who they are, what they're about.

Just don't care. You've lost interest.

But it's more than losing of interest. It's also when you are indifferent, you degrade the other person. They're less important to you. They don't matter. And ultimately what we feel in relationships is that we matter. That is the essential reason for connecting to people, is that we are creatures of meaning. I matter to you, I'm someone. You care about me, you want my well being, you're proud of me, you want good for me, you're benevolent, all of that. When you are indifferent, the whole thing goes. And then you start to that coldness that creeps in, that sense of estrangement that Complete disconnect. That the second one is neglect. Neglect. When people just basically take each other for granted. You know, they take more care of their car than of their partner, their dog or their dog, anybody, anything, their yard, anything, anything. Gets attendance, their business for sure. Their business for sure. You know, everything gets priority, everything gets reviewed, evaluated, attended to 360s, you name it. You know, new input. You know, my God, it's like people have this idea that they put it all in when they were dating and then once they seal the knot, it's like as if they tied the knot. It's like now they don't have to do squat anymore and they go into this kind of complete sense of complacency and laziness. It's an amazing thing. They think this thing is just going to live on its own, right? Like a cactus, right? Violence, violence, the abuse, the level of disrespect. I mean, most people talk nicer to anybody else than their partner. When a relationship.

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Because you can't get away with it. Because you can't get away with it. Because if you talk like this at work, you're gone. Because if you talk like this with the police, you're gone. Because if you talk like this on the street, you're being punched. But with your partner, you have that sense that they're going to be there anyway. They're just going to take it because it's family. And family is this kind of. This thing that doesn't dissolve so easily so you can just lash out at them and talk to them with a tone and a dismissal. That is phenomenal. So that kind of violence, I'm not talking physical violence and all the other big things.

You're talking about aggression or resentment or all of that. All of that passive aggressiveness. All those things.

Yeah, all of that. And then contempt, I think is the top one. But contempt is the killer of them all. Because in. In the contempt there is a real. There's the degradation of this. It's that. That complete this. You're nothing. You're nothing. I can kill you with that one gaze, that one eyebrow that goes up that you know, do you. Who do you think you are? What are. And that's it. You. You're done. You're done.

So how do we even get to.

This place of these.

These places after having been so in love? It's so romantic, right?

It's is desire. Reflect that. Or if we're not desiring the person anymore. Then we start to feel one of those categories. Or does that not play into.

Look, the truth is this. There's only two relationships that resemble each other. The one you have with your parents or the people who raise you, and the one you have with the people you fall in love with. People can sit in my office all the time and say, I have this with no one else. I don't have this with anybody at work. Nobody among my friends ever thinks like that. You're the only one who speaks like this or thinks this about me or with whom I do this. No, you're the only one. And now we go back in history, and I'm sorry to be the psychologist, but that's really. It is the place where we often learned about closeness, trust, loyalty, commitment, sharing, taking, receiving, asking, all these essential verbs of relationships. We learned that at home.

We also learned jealousy and possessiveness, vengeance, you name them.

The beauty, the not beauty.

Yeah. We saw it all as children, right? We saw the fights, we saw the love. We saw the, you know, we saw the coldness, the lack of intimacy. The intimacy, yes.

And we bring that with us. And we often promise ourselves, I'll never be this one. I'll never be this way. I'll never talk like this. I'll. You know. And we find ourselves often much closer.

To the apple, and then resenting ourselves to the tree, we resent ourselves.

We're like, how do we do that?

Well, why did we get to this place?

And then we feel ashamed about it. And since we don't like to feel ashamed about it, we hide it. And one of the way we hide it is we blame the partner. That's just one of the ways. There's a lot we are very resourceful in not owning our shit.

Right. Exactly. Exactly. Wow. Okay. And where does sex play into all this and desire?

So, I mean, one of the fascinating things for me in looking at sexuality is that it's probably one of the dimensions of relationship that has changed the most in a very, very short amount of time. For most of history and in still the majority of the world, sex is for procreation. Sex is a marital duty on the part of the woman. Nobody cares, particularly if she likes it and how she feels and if she wants it. And men have the privilege to go and find sex elsewhere in a very short amount of time. We're talking 60 years. We have contraception, which is the liberation of women for the first time to free sex from reproduction, from mortality, from death in pregnancy. And in childbirth, sorry, all of that. And for the first time, sexuality moves from just biology and a condition to a part of our identity and a lifestyle.

In 60 years.

In 60 years. The women's movement, which goes after the abuses of power. The gay movement, which introduces the concept of identity to sexuality. The fact that sex is for connection and pleasure. The fact that for the first time we have sex before marriage and many times, a lot. We used to marry and have sex for the first time. Now we marry and we stopped having sex with others. Okay. Monogamy used to be one person for life. Now monogamy is one person at a time. And people go around telling you I'm monogamous in all my relationships. And it makes perfect sense to them. Okay, all of that in a very short amount of time. The fact that I choose you to marry or to live together doesn't matter. Commitment, because I'm attracted to you, because you give me butterflies in my stomach. And the fact that I think that if I don't have these butterflies anymore, maybe I don't love you anymore. And the fact that sexuality in long term relationships is rooted in one thing only. Desire. I feel like it. I want to not. I have to not. We want many kids after two kids. The only reason to continue doing it with you is because we feel like it. And hopefully it's pleasurable. We connect, it feels good, it rounds.

Up, deepens our relationship, the whole thing.

That's it. And hopefully it's at the same time and for each other. Because plenty of desire continues, but it's not always at home.

Right, Exactly.

So this is an amazing revolution, sex.

That is confusing all of us.

And how do we sustain it? So that's why I became fascinated in the nature of erotic desire. And how do we sustain desire? Because it is the first time ever that we have a grand experiment of the humankind where we want sex with one person in the long haul that is fun and connected and intimate and playful. And we live twice as long.

Go figure, right? Exactly. For 60 years you're going to be with them or whatever it is.

Yeah, it's an amazing ideal.

So how do we navigate this?

If we're going to choose one partner and be with them until, you know, we're both gone, how do we navigate the challenge of keeping the desire continuously?

I think the fact both men and.

Women, because the woman probably sees other men who are attracted to her and vice versa. So it's like, how do both parties do this?

Look, we know that women get bored with monogamy. Much sooner than men.

Wow factor is this fact.

That's research. That's not just fact. That is man's desire in long term relationship goes down gradually. He actually is much more able to remain interested and maybe just because he's interested in the experience itself and he has a partner there. Women's desire postmarritual, really.

Wow.

And it's always been translated as well. That's because women care less about sex rather than. It's because women care less about the sex that they can have in their committed relationships, which is often not interesting enough for them. And it often has to do with the fact that the story, the character, the plot is not in, is not seductive. The romance, which is an essential ingredient of turn on for the woman often disappears in the long term relationship. It's like people look at each other at the end of the day and you want to fool around. You want to do it. You're up for it tonight. Now this is really not. This is not very much of a turn on for most women. And the idea that foreplay often starts at the end of the previous orgasm, you know, and not five minutes before the real thing.

Right.

Which for her is not the real thing. The whole. The real thing is everything else.

So it's actually the game. Yes, it's creating a game deduction.

It's a plot, it's a coming close, it's a tease. It's what animals call pacing. It's that I come to you, but I don't overwhelm you. I come just a little bit so that you can come a little bit toward me. And then I don't immediately answer. I actually go back a little bit too. Have you ever seen animals? They do this kind of pacing and it is an essential playful ingredient of seduction and excitement. So women's desire plummets. But we interpret it as women are less interested in sexual rather than women are interested in probably just about the same kind of things that many men are. But women have always known what to choose above what turns them on, which was what gives them stability and security in their family.

Someone to protect. Be there. Right.

So what people do, look, this is. We want one partner today to give us everything that involves stability and security and everything that involves playfulness and mystery. Okay. That's the grand ideal. Okay. I want to be cozy with you and I want to have an edge and I want you to surprise me and I want you to be familiar and I want you to give me continuity and I want you to give me novelty. That's it as if it's a right and no Victoria's Secret is going to solve that. So then it becomes what is desire? Desire is to own the wanting. If you ask people a question that goes like this, I turn myself off when I turn myself off by not you turn me off when. And what turns me off is you're going to hear, I turn myself off when I do emails, when I spend too much time on the phone, when I overeat, when I don't exercise, when I have bad days at work, when I don't feel confident, when I numb myself, when I feel dead, when I don't feel thriving, when I'm not alive. You will really hear that it has very little to do with sex. And when you ask people, I turn myself on when or by I awaken my desires, not you turn me on when and what turns me on is which is I. E. You're responsible for my wanting. What people will talk to you about is when I'm in nature, when I'm connected with my friends, when I get to do my sports, when I play music, when I listen to music, it's stuff that gives me pleasure, that is alive, that is vibrant, that is vital, that is erotic in the full sense of the word as life force. And from that place, people remain interested in having sex with somebody else for the long haul, not because they've scratched their arms for two seconds. I feel good about myself. The biggest turn on is confidence. Confidence. You ask people, when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner? Every description has to do with when they're in their element, when they're on stage, when they're doing their sport, when they are radiant, when they are in their studio, on the piano, on the horse, you name it. It's when they are in their element, that is, they don't need me to take care of them.

They're not depressed and down, lonely and.

Sad, they're not needy, they don't need me. Because desire is about wanting you. Love is also about needing you. Caretaking is a very powerful experience in love and it is a very powerful anti aphrodisiac.

So how do you experience love and desire at the same time?

You calibrate it.

So sometimes you're.

It's the same as when you walk. You have to move from one foot to the other. A balance is not about staying on one side. A balance is the ability to see. Right now we don't need caretaking. We can be mischievous, we can be naughty, we can be playful, we can break our Own rules. We can stay home and not go to work at 8 o', clock, right? And now we are in a playful zone. Now we are feeling that we are bringing our own little transgressions home. And we are alive. We're not just being dutiful, responsible, good citizens, Right? It's that it's very small. You know, I always think when I go and I see people at lunch and you see them talking and they're well dressed and they're awake and all I see who is here with their partner, because you can see them, they're engaged, they're giving the best of themselves. That's erotic. No, the majority are not there with their partner. They're there with their friends, with their colleagues. Their partner is going to get the leftover when they come home at night. Sorry, you know what? Forget the night date. Meet at lunch. When you actually have energy, you know, and in the middle of the day like that, when you're awake, when you have something to offer, it's a very small thing. But they don't do it. They don't do it. And you say, why not? Why not? Why don't you stay an hour extra at home in the morning? And not just. Because when you have a headache and just say, this matters to me. All in all, you know, committed sex is premeditated sex. It's not just gonna happen because whatever is gonna just happen already has. So you're gonna make it happen because you say, we matter, we're important, let's do this, let's spend. Doesn't mean if you're gonna make love or have sex. It just means we're gonna take this hour. And there's nothing el in this moment, but just you and I to be together to check in and then we'll see what unfolds. That's the erotic space in which sex may happen. Probably will. Doesn't have to, but it is the place from which it is much more likely to emerge. But people don't do that. They do the responsibility. That's the love, right? The citizen, the commitment, the caretaking, the burdens, the safe. And then they say, I'm bored. I would be too.

Oh, exactly. There's no mystery. There's no risk taking. Right, Exactly.

Yeah. There's no risk taking. That's the word. If you want desire, it's risk. And the risk is an emotional risk. It's not about sexy risks. It's really a risk on the emotional front is that I bring something else to you differently from. Differently from the way I typically present myself. How can I do this? What can I do today that will be different from the ways that I've done it until now? How can I do something that I think would actually improve our relationship? Me. Right. Not something that I want or that you want, but that I think would be actually good for us, that third entity, the us. Right. And you check every time. How often do you just go on the tried and trodden, as in, you know, it works. Sex that just works for most people is really not interesting enough.

Right.

So because what does it mean? It works generally, right.

What about the people listening who are saying, man, that sounds like a lot of work. That every day you have to change, do something different and unique and be.

Not every day. Not every day. Not every day. But what you can do every day is just a quick check with yourself. You know, is there something that I should notice? Is there something that I can be thankful for? Is there a little note that I could write? Is there, you know, just a way that I can show up a tight. It's small. It's really small. Here's the thing. There is work and then there is the creative work. You know, I'm talking about a level that is creative and that elevates you and that actually gives you, you feel, you feel taller, you just feel like you're engaged, you feel awake, you feel. Rather than this, this is the other seated position. It's comfortable, it's great. But nothing happens here.

Sure.

This, this is alert. Here's the essential word, is curiosity. When you curious, you lean forward and you watch. You're open to the mysteries of life. This is, please don't bother me with anything because I don't want any stimulation. I've had my share. I've been, you know, and this is the position that most people have at home. So when people say it's too much work, I basically say, look, if I was to say this, in your business, would you say this is too much work or you would say, that's very good advice. This is high rate consulting fees. It's like, excuse me, but you don't think for a minute that your business would thrive if you let it languish like that. Never. You have a reward system. You have incentives, bonuses, bonuses. But there is no incentivized system in the private domain. So people just think, why bother?

Right?

And that's the difference is that the ones who have good relationships are the ones who created their own internal incentivized system.

What are some of those incentive systems that you've seen over time that really work are effective for long term relationships.

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I would say the first thing is almost one of the first things that our parents teach you. Please and thank you. Do you know how many people stop thanking their partners? Thank you. Thank you for doing this for me. Thank you for picking up the shirts.

Thank you for, you know, making you feel appreciated.

Yes. Appreciation. Appreciation is huge. Gratitude. Acknowledgment of the presence of the other in your life, not, did you do this? Did you call, did you pick up, do this, you know, half the time. Expectation, Expectation, of course, you know, expectations is often a resentment in the make. With the expectation comes the fear of it's not going. Thank person, first of all, and because it also makes it feel like this is not a given. Nobody owes you squat, you're not owed anything, you're not that important. You're actually quite replaceable. And with the divorce rate that we.

Have, what's the rate at right now?

About 50 on first and 65 on second.

65 and second. Wow.

It's not good, right? It's really, you know, it costs a lot of money. It's not good for the health. I mean, it's just like, you know, it's not good for the jobs. It's just. It's like, okay, now you could say, maybe people should marry, but it doesn't matter if it's marriage legally or. The idea is that we can do better, we can do better. In general, I really think that the quality of our lives depends on the quality of our relationships. I mean, nobody's got the right, you know, you worked 60, 70, 80, 90 hours a week and, you know, no, they're going to say, he was there for people when they needed to. He was there at every game, he was there at the party. He's the guy who, when you were in his presence, he had charisma. Not because he could stand in front of a huge crowd, but he had charisma because when I was in his presence, he made me feel special. It's a different charisma. So appreciation, gratitude, thank you. Little things to go out of your way rather than just to do the minimum. A lot of people start to do the bare minimum just so that they can't be scolded.

Right.

Go an extra thing on occasion, just do something for the other person just because it matters to them. Even if you couldn't care less, right? Rather than, it's not important to me, I don't need this, or I don't care about this. Give each other a lot of individual space. Not everything needs to be shared. People have different passions, different interests, different friends, and they need those separate spaces to exist. Admiration, I think, is huge because admiration is also that you kind of really see the otherness of the other person. Don't try to make your partner into one person for everything. There is no such a person. Find multiple sources of connection, of intimacy, of friendship, so that you can have a Group of people support you and don't have one person who has to be there for you for everything, especially when you're in the dumpster.

We used to have a village of people to do that, and now we just expect one person to be the village, Right?

Yes, yes, yes. One person for the whole village. That is a unique. And then we're upset when they don't fulfill the mandate. And that's the more important. Like, I can't talk to you. You're not supportive of me. You're not excited for me. Excuse me. Find other people.

Right. You know, I can't be everything for you. Yeah, no, exactly.

No. Can you.

Can we talk about, you know, what marriage was about early, when it. When it started? Do you know the history of marriage and how it's evolved and where it's at now and kind of like the. How we look at it in society?

So as I won't go back millions of years, because a long history, and we were actually much more polygamous and much more polyamorous and all of that. But the model from which we come is basically this. Marriage used to be an economic enterprise. It was a mercantile arrangement. Men depended on women's fidelity for patrimony and lineage, so that I can know who are my children and who gets the cows when I die.

When was this? What time frame?

This is pretty much. It still is in most parts of the world, by the way. And I would say it's probably. We're gonna go about 50, 60 years back. Okay, that's it.

Okay. Wow.

That's it. People didn't choose who they married. You know, people didn't choose who they married. Arranged marriage is the norm still in many parts of the world. Certainly you didn't marry because you fell in love. You married somebody who was a good person with whom to have a family with. And if love grew, that was wonderful. But it was not the beginning element of a relationship. Desire certainly was not what sex was about in marriage. So this is the traditional model. That doesn't mean that there was no good sex and intimate sex. That doesn't mean there was no passion, and that doesn't mean there was no love. But that was not what the institution of marriage was meant for. Marriage, that becomes a romantic arrangement. I will begin that at the end of the 19th century. It's about 150 years old, but. But it needs contraception. It needs feminism. It needs a lot of things to become what we want today, which is a relationship that is rooted in intimacy. Intimacy which until not Too long ago was basically, we live together, we share the vicissitudes of everyday life. We raise the kids, we work the land. Intimacy now is into me. See, I share with you my inner life. That required individualism. Before individualism, we didn't have the concept self. That's beginning of the 20th century, late 19th, beginning 20th. So it's a lot of things go together. You know, the rise of individualism to move away from religion as the center, the person becomes the center. Hence my individual happiness becomes central. Now I move away from the community. I choose you. And as I choose you now, you become responsible to alleviate my existential aloneness. You know, that's why you become my village, right? Because I've left the village. And you're gonna make me feel that I matter because I'm not judged by my actions. I'm judged by my personality. It's very different. I'm not, you understand? It's a whole new thing. It's like who I am, not what I do as I. As in, do I show up in church? Am I an upstanding citizen? You know, am I doing right by my parents? It's personality. It's a whole new thing.

Right?

So trust, affection, intimacy, desire become the four pillars, you know, within modern relationships. That is a whole new model. Affairs used to be actually adultery, for most of history, was the space where we put. People went to look for true love because there was. That was. Marriage was arranged. Arranged and economic. Now that we brought love into marriage, adultery destroys it. So what did we do? We brought love into marriage. We brought sex to love. We connected happiness to emotional and sexual satisfaction. And we also want a passionate marriage, which for most of history has been a contradiction in terms of passion has always existed, but somewhere else.

Right? In the affair or in whatever.

Yes, wherever.

Wow.

Wherever.

How are we supposed to navigate all this?

I mean, actually, I think it's exciting. I really do. Because nobody, in effect wants to go backwards.

No, absolutely not.

Nobody wants to go back where you are stuck. This is it. You have one chance for life, and the only thing you have going is that you die younger.

Right, exactly.

Okay. You actually have the opportunity to do it again, to try a different story, to be a different person, to be a better partner and to be a better parent, for that matter. And I think that that is something that we've never had, is the opportunity to rewrite that story. We always had one job for life and one relationship for life. I think one of the numbers. And, you know, of course, we therefore didn't have to decide five times what do I want to do.

Right, Exactly.

But we have been given a unique opportunity. I can have more than one career or more than one job, more than one identity in this world, and I can have a whole new family and I can have a whole new love that I can start at 60, 40, 50, 60. And I have another 20 years with somebody and actually do it better this time. I think that is actually one of the greatest gifts we've been given.

How long have you been married?

30 something.

30 something years. Okay. And how has your work, two kids, and how has your work and the constant conversation you're in about this work supported or not supported your relationship with your husband?

You know, there was a comment that I once made a few years back and it's become a. It's become a line in one of my TED talks. So, you know, where I said most of the people today are going to have two or three relationships in their.

Adult marriages or just relationships, Committed relationships.

Marriages, I could say marriages. But let's say in Europe, so many of us don't marry, so I would say committed relationships. Most of us are going to have two, two or three committed relationships in our lifetime due to divorce, due to death, various things. Some of us are going to do it with the same person. I have had probably three marriages to the same man. Not because we divorced or anything, but because over 30 years we have had to redefine ourselves to restructure everything that you do in companies, you know, to change our brand.

What works for five years is not going to work for the next.

That's right. What work when we are just two is not the same as what works when we are 4. What works when we're in our 20s isn't the same as when we are in our 50s. What works when we have this type of career is not the same as now. You know. And I think that the very principles that you apply to companies today, flexibility, fluidity, the ability to reinvent itself, to redefine itself, to manage tradition and innovation, is really what has to enter into all modern love. That's what coupledom is about. Those who can do it, do it with each other, and the other ones do it by finding a new person.

So what's the ideal relationship moving forward in our life?

It's this. It's. You sit every once in a while and you say, how we doing? What are the strengths between us? What. You know, I actually think people should have do different commitment ceremonies in the course of a marriage.

Really?

Yes. I Think that every few years or every year they should have a little summit or they should have a little whatever they want to call it. They could have a ceremony, a kind of, where are we at checking in? How are we doing? What has been good in our life? What could we do better? What could we do differently? Are we doing right by our children? Are we giving, you know, are we meeting some of our important needs at this point? What has changed for us? We've just been sick. We've just lost a parent. We've just lost a child. What's changing in our life? And to actually address this head on, what the problem is in modern in couples is that most of the big topics are addressed when there is a crisis, rather than when actually things are good.

When you're calm.

When you're calm, of course, you have less incentive to change when things are good, but you have less creativity to change when things are bad. Same for companies, same for couples.

Wow.

So I think retreats for couples are unique, actually, because couples are often isolated units. They talk to nobody. Sometimes women will talk to women. Men will talk to no one. And when a group of couple come together in a group, it is powerful. It is so normalizing to know what's happening at the neighbors that you never know and that you can always imagine is different from yours. It's so powerful to hear your partner, like, you can never hear them because somebody else just said same thing, but just with a different word or just with a little bit more distance so that you're not instantly reactive and defensive. I think that that conversation between couples, the same way that you bring entrepreneurs together to a mastermind to talk about.

Their company, to hear something in a.

Different way, that it finally lands with you and you can take action towards it.

Yes. I think that if we could actually bring the entrepreneurs and their partners, it would be an incredible thing. I do a lot of it with ypo, with do with all these. I see it each time. And not to separate the partners from the others. No, Actually have the people in the room, you know, have a fishbowl where the entrepreneurs talk about what their life says, and then have a fishbowl on the other side where the next inner circle is where the partners talk about what it's like to live with the entrepreneur and have each of them listen to the other. It's been one of the richest conversations I've had in that space.

Wow. Okay. And what's your thoughts on divorce? You know, there's. You said over 50% are divorced the first time. And over 65 the second time. Do you believe that or do you think it's, you know, that people should experience divorce or they should go through that, or they think. Do you think they're being lazy or do you think that they're just not committed to it enough? Or that they haven't tried all the different things to become better themselves and to see the good in their partner?

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I would start differently. I would say.

Is that a bad question?

No, no, no, no, not at all. But I would say differently. I would think that the first thing that has to happen with divorce is to take away the concept of failure. As long as we still think that it is marriage for life, till death do us apart. When de facto, for the majority of couples today, it still Love dies. Not till death do us apart.

That's when we divorce. We break out when love dies.

Yes. And then we think it's a failure. I think that a relationship that has lasted for 15, 20, 25 years, sometimes that's not a failure. It's a huge success, It's a long time, it's a good success. And they may have done certain things poorly and other things very well. I think a lot of people who divorce don't have the chance to actually appreciate how many good things they had in their relationship and to do what I like to call a Lagunette Paltrow.

Or the conscious uncoupled, meaning Catherine Woodward Thomas. Do you know her?

Yeah. Goodbye. This is what I really am thankful for that we had together. This is what I take with me from what we had together. This is what I wish for you as we move forward. This is how I hope our children will remember us. That is a very different departure. And when you do that departure, you also have a very different continuity in your next relationships later than carrying bitterness and victimization and resentment and all of that. So I think that many people, something ends, you know, but they moved in together. They helped each other through school. They helped each other in the beginning of their careers. They helped each other when their parents were sick. They helped each other when their parent died. They helped each other with raising children. This is a lot of what marriage is about. They've had good marriages for all sake and purposes. And maybe other things have come in and they were not necessarily always that nice to each other. And maybe they hurt each other and maybe they abandoned each other, maybe they betrayed each other. Lots of other things come in too. But this stuff all disappears because of the negative that then sits on it, making it look like their marriage didn't work out. It failed. Why? It failed because it ended. The only time it's successful is when they meet in the funeral home.

Interesting. So you think we should redefine or look at it differently?

Yes, I think that marriage has to be disentangled from the concept. Concept of. Yes. I think that divorce as the proof that the marriage failed is the wrong conclusion. It's not right. And it takes away from people decades of enormous endeavors and constructive stuff. It's not because a company closed that a company failed.

Right. They closed all the time.

Yeah.

Okay, interesting. So are you saying that, you know, since our. We're evolving and growing and having different needs and desires and things like that, that we should expect, you know, to start a family and then get divorced? And how is that going to affect our children's lives going forward? Should we be expecting more of that and be okay with just. Well, now I've got a new partner and a new stepmom or stepdad, and this is how we have multiple families now. How is that going to be moving forward?

Listen, when there was no divorce, basically the ones who took the brunt of it were the women. The supposed stability of the family basically rested because the woman stayed put, made sure that the children had the kind of. Were taken care of.

The man went out and did many times, Many times.

If they had the possibility, they certainly would. So I think that. That we definitely have a model today that is more Focused on the adults. When you divorce, it's for the well being of the adult. It's not for. Unless there's real egregious issues in the family. It's not for the benefit of the children, it's for the benefit of the adult. A divorce is not the end of the family. It's the reorganization of the family. It's the end of the couple, but it's not the end of the family. And if the couple can disentangle with more integrity and more respect and more real thoughts about the children, not manipulation for the good of the children, then the family can actually reorganize better. And this is where it's going to go. So we can bemoan it, but the fact is we better think about a better way of doing it so that the children, the children of today, look, the millennials of today, 50% of them are either the children of the divorced or the disillusioned.

Yeah. Answer the voice. Yeah.

And half of them, half of you men grew up with single mothers. So you've come out with a very different kind of emotional intelligence.

Right.

Because you actually were speaking to those mothers at the table the whole time and they engaged you in conversations in ways that often did not take place if the father would have been at the table.

Right.

So you come. I think it's a very, very beautiful new generation of men actually that emerges out of this, that has that. We don't think of it. They at a table with mom and when mom said, how was your day? She was not content with just, it was good or it was all right. She said what? You had another question and another question. And, and you've developed a, a, a kind of an emotional literacy that most boomers don't have a clue about. Men.

Sure.

That the millennial man really has available.

Interesting.

You understand. I don't think you've ever thought of that.

Yeah, that's great. That's great. Yeah. Yeah.

You see it? I mean, watch yourself at the table at breakfast. You know, there was a whole. That conversation did not happen when dad was at the table. Not that there was no conversation. It was a different conversation. So I think families are reorganizing.

Okay.

Yes, yes.

It's not failures, it's not bad. It's not wrong.

We have blended families. We have single parent families, we have gay families, we have accordion families. We have long distance families. We have the fastest growing model of couples in America today is the lat living apart together. That is the fastest growing. And it's a boomer model. It's the people after 55, okay. Who are in relationships but don't live with their partner.

Interesting. Why?

Because they often have their own families, because they have their own living arrangement, because one of them is still working, one of them is already preparing and downsizing. Lots of different reasons for why they prefer to have the benefits of the connection and of the relationship and their own space.

Interesting.

Or because they want to stay closer to their children or grandchildren while the other person has their grandchildren elsewhere. It's millions. Millions. Of course, the question of the LAT is what will happen when they get older. Do you have the same commitment to a person who is aging and getting sick when you have not lived with them and you have maintained so much of your own life? Because I meet you in my 50s, I have a whole life and I'm not willing to let go of that life.

Yeah.

I'm willing to be with you and create a relationship and connect things, but I don't want to let go of my. I have a whole world of my own, you know, so that's the LAT model. And we don't know what the lat model will do for public health. We know that men, you know, live better in older age when there is somebody next to them. They don't take good care of themselves.

Yeah, of course. Should we expect, you know, moving forward in relationships with our time, that monogamy is something that we're going to be able to do or with the there's always something better option and that it's more available now than ever? Especially with social media, online dating. There's distractions constantly.

Yeah. You don't have to leave your house anymore.

Exactly.

You pretty much cheat on your partner while lying next to them in bed.

Exactly.

But. But we are by definition already doing serial non monogamy. You know, most of us don't come to marriage monogamous. We've come to marriage after years of nomadism, sexual nomadism. So monogamy is a concept that has already been redefined throughout. You asked me before about how has marriage changed. But monogamy had nothing to do with love. For most of history, monogamy became about love with romanticism. It's the sacred ideal of the romantic ideal. Because. The sacred cow. Because monogamy means I'm everything, I'm it, I'm the one, I'm chosen, I'm unique, I'm Iris. And if you are interested in someone else, it means I'm not enough versus monogamy, which was basically for Patrimony and for children, you know, so, so how.

Should we navigate this moving forward?

I think, look, if I had Talked to you 70 years ago about premarital sex and virginity was a precondition, you would have looked at me like, this is a taboo. This is impossible. Today, premarital sex in the west, it's like nobody blinks an eye. Okay. It would have been inconceivable. Okay. If I had talked to you about going from families of eight tailed children to families of one child, you would have looked at me. Inconceivable. If I had told you that we were going to be conceiving so many children through assisted reproduction. Inconceivable. So today when you say open relationships or non monogamous relationships, or periodically non monogamous or monogamy, Shala Dan Savage or, you know, or polyamorous, people will say, can't work, impossible. You know, the fact is, monogamy is the new frontier. But you can have it as negotiated through divorce or through what most people have always done, which is proclaimed monogamy and clandestine adultery, or you can do it through a model of transparency in which people have consensual non monogamy. This is it. This is the options, right?

What do you think is going to be working the most?

There's going to be a little bit of everything. There are some people who really need stable, committed, monogamous relationships. They don't want open doors. And there are other people for which open doors probably should be the model from the start. That's kind of who they are. That's their curiosity, that's the way they live their life. And it's not because they're less committed or less loving. It's because their sexuality is organized in a certain way and it lives together with a certain arrangement. And all of that is going to be redefined as we go along. It's de facto what's going to happen. It will be the next frontier. But, but if you see it on the level of marriage, people say, you know, if you say, okay, let's look on the, you know, you have to look at it from the place of before marriage. You know, a Swedish philosopher said, today monogamy only exists in reality. It doesn't exist in your memories and it doesn't exist in your fantasies. So this is not because I advocated. It's just, first of all, there's nothing to advocate. It's very simple that by definition we have multiple sex partners before marriage. We are not monogamous anymore in the traditional sense. Of the word. The world has been in flux and we don't really know where it's going. We don't. What we know is that people still seek to connect. People want to love, people want somebody who loves them. And how that will play itself out is the mysteries of life. But the fundamental human need for love, for connection, for passion, for transcendence will never change. The expressions, the forms, the institutions in which we will seek those fundamental human aspirations will continuously transform. That's really how I see the. The evolution taking place.

Sure.

What do you think of what I'm saying?

Oh man, it's just so con, you know, it's confusing because you hear so many different options that work, that don't work. You see people that love each other, that go through breakup and divorce. You see. And then you see the pain and the struggle and the emotional toll that it takes on some people. Then you see people who are in, you know, committed monogamous relationships who feel guilty because they want to be able to explore, but they can't because they've made this choice and they've committed to it.

Monogamy is a practice. We are not by nature biologically evolutionary monogamous. It's a practice. It's a choice. And it's a choice.

It's not our makeup.

No. And it's a choice. And monogamy is a continuum. You have mind, you have fantasy, you have memory, you have a lot of things. At what point do we become non monogamous? Where does non monogamy start? And all of these concepts are fluid concepts today. There is just no way to define it like that. So we make our choices and we make compromises. And we sometimes don't just do what we want. And we often need to think about the consequences of our actions and we need to think about, about the larger picture. And something that may be perfectly desirable for tonight may not be worth it for the next weeks and the next years.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think that in the era of self fulfillment and the right to happiness, we don't have more desires today than the previous generations. We just feel more entitled to fulfill our desires and we feel that we have a right to be happy. Happy. My personal happiness. The switch, the greatest switch is from a social organization in which I think about the well being of others, collectivist thinking thinks about the well being of others. And I sacrifice my own individual needs for the well being of others. To the other side of the continuum is I have a right to pursue my individual needs and the others will have to Adapt to it. And I think that we are a little bit on the extreme end of the other side at this point. We really take ourselves a little very seriously and sometimes at the detriment of other people to whom we do have an obligation and a commitment to not just our partners, the world. The world.

So where should we be? Somewhere in the middle, you think?

Or what's in an examined state? I don't know that it's always in the middle, but in an examined state, in a state that doesn't just say what I like, what I feel. The fact that I have options doesn't mean I have to exercise all these options. The problem of consumer life is that we don't know anymore to make choices. Same with the cereals in the supermarket. Why would it be better with love? So I could get better. I could get better. I'm like, you know, I'm a victim of fomo, you know, how do I know this is the best? No, you don't. When do I find the best? No, you don't. You don't find your partner. You choose your partner. Partner. It's very different, you know, if you think you're going to find somebody who is the person who's going to make you stop looking. It doesn't work this way because. No, it doesn't. Because at some point your inner rumblings will start up again and then you will say, oh, probably start looking. You know, it's like you just say, this is it. This is where I decide to put my. My roots in this moment, you know, And I'm gonna. And I'm gonna try to deepen them. I think we are all living with paradoxes of choices, you know, from which phone I get. But we cannot commodify a partner and just kind of beta test the partner and beta test the relationship and check out to see is it good enough or can I find better? Yes, you can. The fact is, you could find other. I'm not sure it would be better, but you definitely can find other. And there are lots of people you can love, and there's only a few you can make a life with. And they're not always the same. There are a lot of people you can have love stories with, right, and have beauty, but they're not the person you would make a life with.

How do you know when it's the person you can make a life with?

I think values enter into there a lot more. I mean, you can have magnificent love stories with people you would never live with.

Right?

They're just too different from you. They have not the same values as you. They have not. One wants a child. One does not. One wants. Wants to travel the other does not. One wants career. The other the very major. Different classes, different. Different weltanshauing, as they used to say in German. You know, visions of the world. But you can love them. You can have a beautiful love story with that person and be transported in your experience with them. But you know that that's not the person with whom you're going to build a home, a future, a trajectory, maybe a family. If you want that, that's not the person with whom. And for that you need more of shared vision, shared mission, shared values. Stuff that is not just in the domain of feelings, but also in the domain of beliefs. It's different views about money, views about independence and separateness versus connection, views about emotional expressiveness, views about power.

Wouldn't you say that those differences that we have also attract us to other people? That we have some of those differences? Maybe we don't share the same values or beliefs, but it's also different, unique, interesting, and so it also brings us together? Or do you think it's not enough?

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I think that what attracts you originally is often what becomes the source of conflict later. The very thing that is so attractive because it's different is also the very thing that becomes difficult because it's different.

Interesting.

So of course it's a mix and match, you know. But what makes thriving relationships is not only feelings. It's a mix of feelings, actions, beliefs, touches physicality. It's a more all encompassing thing. A beautiful love Story can be just about feelings, and you can love more people than those that you can make a life with. That doesn't mean you make a life with people you don't love, but it means that there is a whole other set of ingredients that enter into the making of a life, which is the creation of a world. It's a little different. And in that world, you often can be on the side of. You know, There's a lot of sentences today that I never heard 20 years ago in Copper's Therapist. This is a raw deal. I'm not getting my needs met. Where is my return on investment? Excuse me, excuse me. Somebody owes you. It's like, wow, I am in a relationship for what it's going to give me. That is an important piece. Don't misunderstand me. But I'm also in a relationship for what I'm going to give to this person, for what I'm going to give if I want children, to these children, not just for what they're going to bring to me. It's like the level of narcissism has to be shrunken a tiny bit on occasion, right?

Exactly.

It's just like, you know, I mean, I'm part of that same, you know, landscape, but on occasion, I think it's like you calibrate it on occasion. Some. Some of us need to really learn to think more about ourselves, and some of us really need to think more about others. Some of us live with the fear that we're going to be abandoned, and some of us live more with the fear that we're going to lose ourselves. Some of us are better takers and need to learn to give. And some of us are consummate givers and we need to learn to take. And often we find a partner who is exactly the missing link. And that can be beautiful complementarity if we actually get to use the other person to become more whole to learn from them. And we need both. You need to be able to think about yourself and to know what you want and all of that, but you also need to be able to remember that others exist near you. Your family, your friends, your loved ones, and. And that's what will make the difference the day you die. And who will show up at your funeral, basically.

I love this conversation. I have four questions for you left. I feel like I could ask a lot more and I want everyone to make sure they pick up the book. Mating Captivity. We'll have it linked up here at the end. The first one is, what are you most grateful for recently in your life?

Recently in my life I had a kind of a medical scare. So I'm actually very grateful that it turned out to be nothing.

A small boo boo. Not a big one.

It was a big boo boo. I thought it was a big boo boo but it ended up being a small one. So that's, that's actually probably the first one that comes to me. I have, you know, I spend most of my career in the professional academic world and in the last last two or three years I really crossed over to the mainstream and that has entered me into TED and Aspen and the entrepreneur space and Summit and Sudat. I mean it's worldwide and. And I think that it's been a wonderful. Taking what I've done in the four walls of my office to a larger platform and being actually a psychologist not just in the therapeutic space but in the larger cultural space world. That's been great thing going digital. The idea that I can actually help people and give people an elevated conversation about relationships and that embraces the complexity and that meets them where they're at. Through my online courses and through this whole new platform. That's been a trip. It's been a fantastic creative journey for me. It's been just one year year.

Right.

So I'm very grateful for that because it's been fun, creative, new, very different for a therapist actually to move into kind of thought leader if you want and being part of a great, a more global conversation.

Sure.

Great. And that's. I'm actually in many ways I'm much happier today because. Because I've become more. If I miss something, I no longer think oh shit, I would never get enough. It's like I used to want, you know, I'm like, okay, it's all right. I don't have to have gone to three things full. To go back to the beginning of our conversation. I feel that the day is full even if I haven't binged.

Okay.

I used to need to binge for the day to be full. I no longer feel like that.

I like that. Good things to be grateful for. Second question is if someone's looking to get into find a partner, a long term partner, committed relationship for or marriage. What's one piece of advice you would say to go enter into that relationship to find that relationship. If you could give one piece of advice.

Yes. Ask yourself what do I want to give to someone? Don't just ask yourself who do I want to meet and what characteristics do I want in that person? And make a list of all the Things that the other person needs to have. Think in the reverse. What do you want to bring to somebody? What do you want to bring in? You know, what's the love that you want to put out into the world? The love, the caring, the benevolence for another person. Person. I think that that's probably much better than the checklist that most people go.

Here'S what I want.

Yes, here's what you need to be for me. For me to then be interested in you. You know, be compelling to someone else rather than ask. Wait for them to dazzle you so that you can swipe in one direction or another.

Right.

Okay. You know, and that probably would be the first thing I would say. And that's it. That would be the most important one. And don't think just like, is this the best? You're not buying a product. No, it's not the best. Just decide in advance. But neither are you. It's just the one that you say, this is it. Of course, often, you know, you pick somebody because you're ready. But there were plenty of others you met before that could have been fantastic partners for you. Just you went out there in your life. You were not ready for that commitment, that decision. So you were ready to have beautiful experiences, relationships, lovers. And you love these people. But you were in your 20s. What did you know about life, about wanting to build something? Now you're 33, and you say, okay, now I want to do it. So it's the timing, it's your maturity that makes you make the choice, not only the person that you are being dazzled by. So that would be. Be when you go dating.

I like that. Question number three. If it's your last day here on Earth and your book is gone, it's been deleted from history. Everything you've ever created has been gone. For some reason. It just got deleted. And you're on bed, and everyone you love is there, and they give you a piece of paper, and they say, will you write down the three things that you know to be true about your experience in this world, the three truths about what you learned. And this is the last thing that will. This is the only thing we'll ever know or have left about you. What do you think you'd write down about the three truths?

So I, you know, I am a connector. And an enormous amount of people in my life know each other through me. Yeah, Worldwide. It's always been something I love to do. Maybe because I had no family and I. I was one child of two soul survivors. I Think that recreating a tribe was something that came very natural to me. And I would write, I have touched a lot of people who have and I will continue to live on in their memories because so many of them are now interconnected.

Interesting.

I have created a lot of beautiful events that were fun, celebratory, abundant, where a lot of people came together. And I have had a great relationship with the men that I've lived with, at least for now, for the 35 years of my life. And I've raised two boys who, if I was a woman interested in men, I would have wanted to date.

There you go. I love it. I love it. Before I ask the final question, Esther, I want to say that I acknowledge you for being here and the continuous commitment to the work you do to supporting so many people in the world about navigating relationships and understanding how to have full, rich, meaningful experiences and relationships. I think the work you're doing is so powerful, especially today, more now than ever. And I just want to acknowledge you for the gift that you bring to so many people. So thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

Final questions. What I ask everyone at the end is, what's your definition of greatness? Oh.

I went to a company recently and they asked me that question. I think irreverence is a big part of it. There's going to be a few words, integrity, but that's often an irreverence, not to take the accepted as the given. I don't think that that's because that's what we do or that's how we think that that definition means that it's right or it's true. So I am a person who questions. I topple sacred chaos. I open up possibilities. I'm rather non judgmental and I like to shed a whole new light on something that people think they've already heard a lot about and to rethink or kind of challenge the conversation. Those words go into creativity. But greatness is that greatness is when you poked at something and when you started out, it existed like that. And when you ended, it became something completely different. And I think mating actually, you know, mating or the courses in general, I am counterintuitive. I have, you know, I think people come in, I'll just give it to you like that. People have a story. Every person who comes to therapy or every company who comes for me to consult, they have a story. They describe themselves a certain way. Greatness is when they can come in with one story and leave with a completely different story.

I love that It's a perfect end dig. Esther Perel, thank you so much for being here. Where can we find you online? Where can we connect with you? What's the best place to go?

All right, so it's www.estherperell.com. you opt in with me, I connect with you, I communicate with you. We're in conversation. I never harass, but I inspire. I'm on Facebook, I'm on Twitter, I'm on Instagram and I'm about actually to release the third online course called Rekindling Design. That is really once you've read me, what can you do? How do you bring this home? How do you bring this to your relationships, committed ones or not, and to yourself? And that's really where these online courses now are. It's like it's me on it's not the podcast yet which we will talk about, but it is me speaking to you about how you take all of these ideas and make them personal and transform them into actions that will change your life.

I love it. Esther Perel, thanks so much for coming on. I appreciate it.

It's a pleasure.

I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy and if you are looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to makemoneyeasybook.com right now and get yourself a copy copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment.

Moving forward.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links and if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening, then make make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you of no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

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