Why You're Still Playing Small (And How to Stop) | Emmanuel Acho

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What's been the biggest lesson in the last couple years of taking your shot, of putting it out there, being on a limb, and then learning about how to handle the opportunities, the success, the fame, the recognition? And also, how have you learned how to say yes and no to certain things that might be big but not right for you at the right moment.

Two lessons. Yes. I'll give you one pre-success, one post-success.

Uh-huh.

I'll start with the post-success lesson because that one I'm learning right now as I'm talking to you. Everybody will not like you, and that is okay 'cause you don't like everybody. And you know, I've had to realize like, yo, people don't like me, man. Like, this person's mad at me, a black person's mad at me because I'm too nice to white people. A white person's mad at me because I'm a race-baiter. Why don't people like me? And then I kicked back and I said, wait a second, I don't like everybody. So how can I expect everybody to like me? It was something, dude, I've had a hard time to reconcile with because—

'Cause you're a nice guy, right? You wanna be liked by people. That's it.

At least I try to be a nice guy. And in the midst of trying to be a nice guy, I'm still like, why are so many people upset? Daily, and I had to reconcile with that. Pre-success, I think it's, you know, the old phrase, Noah didn't wait till it started raining to build a boat, right? Like, we don't wait until things get crazy to start building. And I think what you've learned, what I've learned, what I hope people learn through this conversation, it's what you do in private and in silence that ends up getting praised in public. It's the wood that you're chopping when nobody's looking. It's the paintings that you're drawing when nobody's buying. It's the words that you're saying when nobody's listening. It's the character you're developing when nobody's watching. Like, what you're doing in private is ultimately what ends up getting esteemed in public. And what I've learned now retroactively, it was the work in private that ended up getting praised in public.

Ooh, and you worked for years, yeah, on developing these skills and everything, everything.

Well, what I've learned, dude, in talking to you and watching you, my own life, studying from brilliant minds that have come before us as we try to achieve our own— the greatest creations, individually and collectively, are the synthesis of different creations. I think about Velcro. Velcro was created, and I'll paraphrase, but Velcro was created when somebody was walking through the wilderness, if I'm not mistaken. And those little annoying pricklies, those little pricklies got stuck to his sock. And they were like, well, if a prickly can adhere to a sock as an adhesive, why can't I create something? So you take the concept of a prickly and the concept of a sock and you create Velcro. And my life was the synthesis of an NFL locker room, a predominantly white private school, a predominantly urban NFL locker room, synthesize those together and create content.

Perspective. Here's a perspective.

Bingo.

Yeah.

So everybody just has to figure out what two things can they combine together to become that greatest version of themselves.

Yeah, you really became a bridge for a lot of people that didn't see the other side of the river.

Correct.

Right? There's a river, there's a separation of ideas, thought, understanding, whatever you want to call it, connection. And you were able to see different sides and bridge the gap. That's it. With your own Velcro.

That—

now, for someone who has a gap in their imagination, they see a future that they want to create, they see an idea, a vision, a goal, whatever you want to call it, but they don't know how to become the Velcro and bridge it to get to the other side. What has been your, your thoughts or your philosophy and your advice on how to accomplish, set, and achieve goals?

Man, I love that question. Um, I love, I love that question, dude. I don't believe in goals, okay? I don't. I no longer believe in goals. Crazy, because I know we're told for so long, set a goal, write it down, live by it. True story, y'all. Maybe one of the most depressing moments of my life. After my junior year playing football at the University of Texas— Texas, a top-flight college football program at the time— I submitted my name to go to the NFL Draft. I wanted to go professionally after 3 years, but I got back from the NFL a report: Emmanuel, you will not be drafted in rounds 1 through 3. You will be drafted in rounds 4 through 7. There are 7 total rounds in the NFL Draft for those watching and eventually listening. I'm not going in the 4th through 7th round. I'll come back for my senior year.

Oh, this is junior year. Junior year. Gotcha.

So what I said was this. I took that sheet of paper that said, Emmanuel, you won't be drafted in rounds 1 through 3, and I highlighted that line, you won't be drafted in rounds 1 through 3, and I hung it above my bed, and I put one of those little sticks through the wall and the paper in my bed. I looked at it every morning I woke up and every night before I went to sleep. You know what they say about goals. Look at him, commit him to memory. Well, while at the NFL Combine, I'm running my 40 at the conclusion of my senior year. The NFL Combine, again, for those watching, listening, it is the ultimate job interview if you want to go to the NFL. I'm running a 40-yard dash, which will dictate essentially where I will be drafted.

What round you're in, yeah.

Exactly. As I'm running, I'm running, I hear this, boom, boom, boom, boom. I thought my heels were clicking. They weren't. My quad was tearing off the bone. I clutch at my squad. I fall to the ground in sheer agony.

During the 40s?

During the 40s.

When every scout and coach is watching.

Everyone watching. I still have the picture.

NFL TV is filming. It's on ESPN.

Phone's blowing up with texts. Are you okay? Oh my gosh. X, Y, and Z. It's terrible. I clutch to the ground. I'll save you all the rest of that details of that story. I end up getting drafted in the 6th round. I learned a valuable lesson that day. Stop setting goals. Here's why. At best, if you set a goal, you will achieve it. But what if you could have achieved more? At worst, if you set a goal and you don't achieve it, you ruin your self-esteem and your self-efficacy. My self-esteem and my self-efficacy, or your self-worth, how you look at yourself, were ruined that day, were undermined that day. So instead of setting goals now, Lewis Howes, I have an objective with no limitations. Small difference, but that small difference will make a huge impact on your life. A goal by definition is an end towards which energy is aimed. An objective is simply directing energy towards something. So why, if I'm going to have a goal, would I focus on the end when I'm at the beginning? Instead, I direct all of my energy towards something. I start my book, Illogical, which you and I are going to get into, Imagine a Life Without failure. Why? Because when you don't set a goal, you can't fail.

Right.

And so many of us combat failure, failure in our lives. So many of us are trying to figure out, how can I become the best version of myself? But we can't become the best version of ourselves because we're still mourning our former self. We're still mourning our failures from our past. We're still mourning our defeats from our past. We're still mourning our scars from our yesteryears. I'm done mourning my stars. Now it's all about having an objective with no limitations. Similar to that quote, if you shoot for the moon, even if you miss, you land amongst the stars.

So as opposed to creating a goal then, what are you— what are you creating? Are you not creating something? You're creating an objective?

Correct. I'm creating an objective.

So what would it look like then?

Beautiful. People would always ask me when I got into TV, hey Emmanuel, you want to be like Michael Strahan, right? For those that aren't familiar, Michael Strahan, host Good Morning America, co-host, NFL Hall of Famer, he's that guy. I said no, I don't wanna be like Michael Strahan. 'Cause if I say I wanna be like Michael Strahan, I might just be like Michael Strahan. And while that's great for Michael Strahan, he's already taken. So why would I wanna be like this man who's already taken? As great and as great and as great as he is, Michael Strahan's already taken. I gotta be Emmanuel Acho. So when people ask me, what do you want to be? I just say I want to be considered one of the most creative people the industry has ever seen. My objective is subjective. My objective is subject to people's opinion.

It's like art.

Bingo! It's exactly like art, bro. And let's, let's think of art. Yeah, Lil Wayne, one of my favorite verses. He says, when you mention Pac, Biggie, and Jay-Z, just remember, just remember Weezy Baby. Or when you mention Pac, Biggie, and Jay-Z, make sure you mention Weezy Baby. Essentially saying, when you mention the greats of all time, just make sure you mention me too. You're not saying I want to be the greatest, you know what I'm saying? He didn't say the best rapper alive, all that. But his objective was subjective. When you mention Tupac, when you mention Biggie, when you make— mention Jay-Z, just make sure you mention me too. And where I am now at with my desires in life, I don't have goals anymore, bro. Because if you have a goal, you can fail, and I'm done failing. While people say, yo, Acho, that's crazy, remember, our greatest accomplishments in life are typically crazy.

They're not rational.

They're, they're completely irrational. Yeah, they're completely irrational. And a quote that I'm hung up on now, I'm hung up on it. Will Smith said in his latest book, He said, "Remember, when somebody gives you their advice, it's just that. It's their advice based on their limited life experiences. You and now are a unique combination of which has never occurred before." That's true. "By which you are the best metric of success." You and now, unique combination, never occurred before. You're the best metric of success. So me in this present moment, in this conversation with you, It's never occurred before. Right. So how this conversation is going to go is dependent upon you, dependent upon me, me and writing a book. This new book, it's never occurred before.

Mm-hmm.

So why would I be limited by someone else's standards? It's kind of like what you and I discussed off camera. We can bring it on camera. I know you wouldn't mind.

Yeah.

Don't let insignificant people have such significance over your life.

Yeah.

And that's often what we do, bro.

Why do you think so many people focus on the insignificance of other people's thoughts and opinions?

Because we all want to be liked, man. And, and, and—

And how have you learned to let go of that feeling of being liked or loved or thought in a positive light when people say things that you don't like?

Well, my favorite quote, maybe for the last decade— top 3 favorite quotes, because I'm a huge quote guy— one of my favorite quotes And those who were dancing were thought to be crazy by those who didn't hear the music. Imagine, and we've all been in this situation before, imagine walking on the beach, biking through the city, and you see somebody just dancing. You'd be like, yo, what the heck are they doing?

Exactly.

But maybe they're not crazy. Maybe they just had headphones in and you couldn't see. Those who were dancing were thought to be crazy by those who didn't hear the music. What I've realized, there's come a point in my time, in my life, where I'm dancing and people think I'm crazy. They just don't hear the music yet. You're dancing. You start, you're 1,200 episodes in now. People think you're crazy. They just didn't hear the music yet. So many people watching this are dancing and people think they're crazy. No, the people that think they're crazy just haven't heard the music yet. So we have to understand We're not crazy. They just haven't heard the music, right? And that is what keeps me going, realizing, yo, I'm not crazy. I'm on my path to greatness, and eventually they will catch up. Yeah.

So when you see someone saying something negative for whatever reason, or anything, how do you handle it internally? And then how do you handle it externally? Do you reply to certain things if someone's saying something? Maybe it's true or it's inaccurate. Do you take the energy to defend yourself or respond, or do you just say, you know what, okay, this is their opinion, I'm going to focus on my vision?

It's really good. I, I sometimes I do fall into that cesspool, if you will, of social media. It's the worst.

Tough, man.

It's at times it could be the worst. Social media does great things. It clearly has for you, clearly has for me, but it can be the worst. Um, I think about this In the jungle, not all animals want to be patted. Some just want to roar.

It's true.

And Twitter is the jungle. Social media is a jungle. In the jungle, not all animals want to be pet, man. Some just want to roar. And you have to understand, when you log on social media and when you are in those spaces, some people just want to roar. And then I also remember, and this is from a movie, another quote, A person is smart, but people are dumb, angry animals. Individually, collectively, you and I are smart, but when you get amongst a crowd, then all of a sudden you have that, you have that crowd chaos, if you will. And I said this 'cause I've been thinking so much recently that cowards turn courageous when they can remain anonymous.

Say it again.

Cowards turn courageous when they can remain anonymous. Oh, wow. And so often on social media and in life, people can remain anonymous. In group settings at stadiums, people can remain anonymous.

Right, say it to my face. Come say this to my face and let's have a conversation.

That's it.

We don't need to fight.

We can have—

I told—

We can talk.

Bro, I reached out to somebody the other day because, you know, he reached out to me and he was like— He didn't reach out to me. He tweeted at me, this is a clown take and not surprising considering the source. I'm like, you got a million followers on social media. We used to work at the same company. You can get my number. I called him up. Oh man, my bad, I regretted it as soon as I said it, man. I shouldn't have said it. I said, it's on me. And I'm like, do we got issues? Just let me know. But I think people get in the midst of that mob mentality and it's sheer chaos. I will say, to your point, it's been hard. You know, like that journey is tough up the mountaintop. And I'm just— I'm still trying the journey, but it's going to be depressing.

How do you manage it emotionally and manage your emotions when you see something that maybe is seeming unfair or just mean, man? And maybe you're not doing it the best way yet, but you're on the journey.

Sometimes you just got to step away.

Yeah, don't respond.

Don't respond, and honestly, log off. I think we have such a mental health crisis right now in society, in large part because of social media. We are seeing things we were never meant to see, we're hearing things we were never meant to hear, and we're reading things we were never meant to read.

And we're seeing, hearing, and reading them in a very elaborate manner with a lot of, I don't know, emotion. You know, it's like we used to read or see things or hear stories without watching the news in such a way that was dramatized to its worst point to get the attention. This is one of the reasons I don't really watch the news ever. I want to be informed and educated, but I don't want to be entertained or captivated by my emotions, overwhelmed by watching information as entertainment. And so I try to step back and say, tell me the facts, tell me the data so that I can have a rational thought around it. Otherwise I'll get tied into just watching the news and be like, the world is ending.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we all have to do a better job of protecting our own minds, our own spaces, what we can take and what we can't take, because you only get one mind, dude. And I know you pride yourself on your mind. I pride myself on my mind. Dude, we only get one.

Yeah.

And I think we all have to do a better job of protecting our own mental health.

Yeah. I grew up in a religion called Christian Science, and the founder is a female. Her name is Mary Baker Eddy, and she had a quote that said, stand porter at the door of thought. Don't allow these, uh, thoughts to enter the mind continuously because then it'll damage everything in your life. So stand porter at the door of thought. Be a guard. At the thought, at the mind, and don't just allow anything to be consumed by it. So, um, what has been the biggest struggle then for you mentally and emotionally in the last couple years?

The biggest struggle is trying to ascend to the mountaintop. And the reason I say that, bro, is to get to the mountaintop. Yes, trying to—

what is the mountaintop?

I think the mountaintop is different for everyone.

Is that a goal?

For me, the mountaintop is checking boxes.

Okay.

Right? Like, it's checking boxes.

Give me an example.

An example. Okay, great, now I host my own show on sports, Speak for Yourself, check. Oh, Craig, great, now I partnered with Oprah on a book. Oh, another book. Oh, a third book.

Yeah.

Check. Okay, but the book has to bestsell, check. It's just like, it's just trying to ascend, trying to do, and not being dejected when you don't. And then, bro, I also think trying to figure out our place on this earth. Yeah, I think we're all trying to do that. When we remove the masks and the, the makeup, figuratively speaking, of our life, we're all trying to figure out what value am I providing to the people I'm interacting with? What value am I providing to society? Where is my place in life? And I've been constantly— my biggest struggle the last couple years is trying to really figure that out. And now that it appears I figured that out, trying to sustain, right, the heat— excuse me— and the hate that comes with that.

The heat and the hate, huh?

You know that old saying, it isn't what you say, it's how you say it?

I've always believed that.

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I don't think people understand that once you have audience and attention, there will be heat and hate. No matter how pure your intentions are, no matter how kind you try to be, there'll be hate.

But you know what I've realized, man, and my co-host Marcellus Wiley says this, criticism is the cost of praise.

It is.

We don't realize that enough. Like recently, for those watching sports news, Naomi Osaka, number one tennis player in the world just a couple years ago, she tried to stop a tennis match 'cause somebody said said you suck. Somebody yelled you suck, and she went to the judge and was like, and went to the umpire, was like, yo, can we stop the match? Like, can we get them kicked out?

Is this recently?

Recently, 2 days ago. Wow.

She tried to stop the match and say, kick that person out.

Correct. And at the end of the post-game press, her tears came into her eyes for different reasons. And I was just like, criticism is the cost of praise.

And if you don't want criticism, don't play the game.

It's like you don't have a choice.

Don't play, don't show up.

You can't play if you don't want criticism.

Yeah.

It's not even like you were advising, don't, it's like, yo, criticism comes with it.

Here's the funny thing, not to cut you off, is that you're gonna be criticized at the top or criticized for doing nothing. Mm-hmm. So you might as well do something you enjoy. Mm-hmm. 'Cause if you're sitting on the couch and you have all this potential but you don't do something, the people closest to you are gonna say, what are you doing?

Yeah.

This person has so much potential. Give me their potential. Yeah, I could do something great with this, but they're just sitting on the couch depressed. Yeah, worried about people's thoughts or opinions. There's a price either way.

You got to pay it either way.

You got to pay it either way. Maybe it's greater price as you're climbing and dealing with the more attention, but there's a price either way.

You know what else, man? And I've realized this too, and it's hit me in the face. You can't call for attention and hang up.

Yeah, someone look at me. Oh, but only say nice things about me.

You can't, you can't. And whether we intentionally call for attention or we don't, you can't call for attention and hang up. Like the boy who cried wolf. Like us in our friend groups. Like a child in a house cries and cries. Mother asks, what's wrong? Father asks, what's wrong? Nothing. Then what are you crying for? You can't call for attention and hang up. And so I think there's just a lot of learning and discovering that I'm doing on this journey.

Yeah, the emotional regulation is funny. I was just interviewing a neuroscientist slash brain surgeon. He's an expert in both areas, so he studies the brain and the mind, right, the thoughts. And after this 2-hour conversation, the whole thing came down to the number one skill to have is the ability to emotionally regulate. Your feelings and how thoughts, the brain, and the mind are connected to feelings and the ability to emotionally regulate them. Not saying that you're not going to have a wide range of emotions, but the ability to regulate under pressure, under stress, so that you can get into flow, that you can get back to your, your mission, your vision, and not be in chaos mode. You know, you can defend yourself rationally, essentially, in times of chaos. And he said, that's kind of what it comes down to. If I could teach a skill, it'd be the skill of emotional regulation. And I think the, the farther we try to strive to unlock our potential, the more we need to learn that because the more people are going to be coming at us, it sounds like.

Yeah. Yeah. One, I think that's a phenomenal thought. I think it was Michael Jordan's trainer who said emotions are dangerous, but controlled anger. Or it's like a controlled aggression.

It's like the most dangerous of all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that Tim Grover? Yes, Tim Grover. Yeah, he's great.

It's like the most dangerous of all.

Yeah, 'cause being emotional and reacting, you're gonna foul out.

Damn it!

You're gonna do something stupid.

Correct.

Which I did many times in multiple sports. And then you learn the lesson, oh, my emotional reaction gets me on the bench.

Mm-hmm.

Or hurts my team.

And you know what's interesting? We're talking sports, but this is a life message.

Life, man. Yeah, it's life.

Because while you can say, fall out literally, figuratively speaking. If you're at the grocery store and then you get upset and then you get emotional and then you get into it with the cashier, emotionally fouling out. If you're talking to a friend and then you get into it with your friend and then you say something you shouldn't have, emotionally fouling out, relationship-oriented. If you're talking to somebody and you're dating and then you get into it. So we're talking a sports conversation, but it is the controlling of your mind. But to me me, bro, everything starts with the mind. Yeah, both our greatest limitations and our greatest accomplishments. To me, it's all up here.

Absolutely. Well, what has been the biggest— you talked about living a life without failure or fear of failure.

Living a life without failure.

What is the biggest fear for you in the last couple years then? And now that you've, let's call it, broken through, right? You were already really successful. I mean, you're NFL player and had a career in sports TV and all these things, but broken through to a different level, what is now the greatest fear?

Ooh, that's why I like talking to you.

Amen.

I like talking to you. Um, my biggest fear is becoming complacent. Mm. My biggest fear is not realizing I'm living inside of a box that is around me. My biggest fear is not realizing, hey, there's a door you haven't yet opened, and what you think is a world is actually just a locker that you are inside of. One of my greatest— one of my favorite scenes of any movie is the end of Men in Black. I believe it's Men in Black 1. And at the end of the movie, they open up a locker, and they open up the locker, and they realize there's an entire another world out there. They thought they were living in their world, but there's such a bigger world out there. And my greatest fear is not pushing beyond a boundary because I don't even realize the boundary is set because I didn't set it, because somebody else said it, and I've been living inside of somebody else's box or somebody else's boundary. The reason we don't achieve our highest highs, bro, isn't because we're not skilled. It isn't because we're not talented. It isn't even necessarily because we don't wanted, it's because we don't realize how high we could achieve.

Right.

I think that's the biggest limiting reactant, realizing our highs. One of my favorite stories, if not my favorite story, story of Roger Bannister.

Mm-hmm.

4-minute mile. 4-minute mile. For those that aren't familiar, Roger Bannister, scientists believed it was physically impossible, impossible to run a mile in under 4 minutes. Quick history lesson for everybody. It's my favorite story. Scientists believe it's physically impossible to run a mile in under 4 minutes. May 5th, 1952, it had never been done in 2,000 years, but by May 6th, Roger Bannister, Oxford, England, runs a mile, 3 minutes 59 seconds. Within 2 years, 10 people ran a mile in under 4 minutes. Now, the world record for the mile, 3 minutes 43 seconds, and roughly 1,800 people have done so. Why? Because one man, Roger Bannister, removed the barriers that other people set around him. One man said, "You know what? I'm not gonna subscribe to that barrier." One man said, "I'm not gonna subscribe to goals." One man said, "I'm not gonna subscribe to that." And he broke the dam open for everybody. And after that dam was broken for everybody, the whole rest of the running world proceeded to run through it. So my biggest fear, bro, is living inside of a box. That somebody else set before me.

So if you don't have goals to break or reach, what are you reaching for? Like, what's beyond a barrier that you're not trying to accomplish?

For me, I'm reaching for movement.

Okay.

It's all it is. I'm ready for progress. Moving forward. I'm moving forward.

So it's not reaching an end goal?

No, it's moving. Yes, it's moving forward, man. Like You, you're gonna do another episode tomorrow, and hopefully it's better than today, and then the next tomorrow, and hopefully it's better than that day, and then you're just gonna keep moving. Like, let's not get so bogged down by, "But I didn't get this." "Oh, but I got that." Just keep moving forward. When you go to a beach and you end up standing in the ocean, eventually after about 5 minutes, you'll look back and be like, "Yo, I done drifted way far away." Yeah. And you just drifted further than you ever thought. That's where I'm at now. Let's keep moving forward. We get so caught up in, I want to be married by 26, and I want to have 2 kids, and I want to have bought my first home by 29, and by 35 I want to be done having kids, and I want to have 4 kids, 2 boys, 2 girls, preferably twins, 'cause that would be easiest. Bump all that. Forget all that goal setting. Goals lead to failure.

Mm.

I want to live the most impactful and significant life I can possibly live. And if I happen to live that life with somebody else, great. And if I don't, great. And at 35, I want to see where I am. And at 30, I want to see where I am. And I want to just continue to move forward and make progress as a human being.

Mm-hmm.

But at the end of the day, bro, the reason we have these goals isn't even because of us, it's because of other people. This blew my mind, this blew my mind, and you're a sports guy, so this may as well, this might blow yours as well. This truly blew my mind. We often debate LeBron James, Michael Jordan, greatest basketball player of all time. Who do you say, sir?

I mean, I'm from Ohio, so I go for LeBron.

Go for LeBron.

I just saw LeBron last night too play, so.

So right, let me blow this Michael Jordan, LeBron James debate open for a second.

Yes.

For those that claim Jordan's the greatest basketball player ever, they, they claim it primarily for this reason: he went to 6 NBA championships and he won 6. But outside of those 6 NBA championships, Jordan never went back to an NBA Finals. He went 6 times and he won all 6 times. LeBron, on the other hand, has gone 10 times and he's only won 4.

It's more like, he's more like Tom Brady.

You know, gone 10, won 4. Jordan went 6, won 6 times. Okay, great. Now let's talk about the same exact sport, basketball. Let's talk about the same exact result, first place and/or second place, Jordan and LeBron. But now let's talk about a different measuring system, a different metric system, the Olympic Games.

Mm-hmm.

In the Olympic Games, Michael Jordan would have 6 golds, no silvers. LeBron would have 4 golds and 6 silvers. On an Olympic scale, 4 golds and 6 silvers is abundantly and clearly greater than 6 golds. But in the NBA scale, 6 golds is better. So the question simply comes down to, whose metric system are you using?

Right.

And the problem is, we let other people's metric systems dictate the happiness in our life. 'Cause in the NBA, you finish in second, you leave the court crying and weeping, devastated. The Olympic Games, you finish in second, To a degree, you're elated, depending on what country.

Right.

Why? Because somebody else dictated how we should feel about a certain situation based upon their metric system, not even our own.

Absolutely.

And I'm just done subscribing to other people's metric systems.

I go to the Olympics, that's an accomplishment. I go to the Olympics and get a bronze, I'm like, "I medaled!" You know, it's like—

I'm one of the 3 best in the world at what I do.

Exactly.

But in the NBA, You get third in the NFL, you finish in third. In the MLB, you finish in third or fourth, you're like, you're petrified, you're distraught. And I realized, bro, we just subscribe to other people's metric system and we let it dictate our happiness.

Now tell me, okay, I love this approach, I love the philosophy and the mindset, but for someone watching or listening who's like, okay, but I really want to accomplish some goals to feel like I'm accomplishing something because I wanted to build my— because it's always built my confidence when I do accomplish. But I hear you say, but if you don't accomplish this, they're going to hurt your self-esteem. So how do we— if someone's like, I want to write a book this year, right? Do I set a goal to write a book, or is it a journey of writing the book? Do I create micro goals on a weekly basis and have accountability? You know, there's gonna be deadlines. Or, uh, you know, how do we think about the process of like completing a project, launching something we want to launch, doing our artwork creating our music, whatever it might be.

Mm-hmm.

How do we then set these things and make them happen?

Right. So I got my master's in sports psychology, and I dedicated my final thesis paper, if you will, for my master's degree to this concept. I elaborate and expound on this concept in "Illogical," but I will give you a snippet. Because I studied goals so long, I understand there is a use for goals.

Mm-hmm.

When you are talking about the micro in order to accomplish something, there is a use for goals. In a relay race, to stick in Olympic sport of track and field, it does not matter how fast we run if we do not get the baton around. So the micro goal needs to be to get the baton around. When I say don't set goals, have an objective with no limitations, I'm talking about a larger principle of life.

Yes.

When you're talking about macro things such as, hey, I just wanna write a book, right? In the macro of writing a book, sure. Say I wanna finish a chapter on Monday, and I wanna finish my, I wanna write a chapter every week, every Monday. If you have an employer who's like, hey, we need this done by this date, well, within that stance, there is a means to set a goal. You talked about talking to the neuroscientist. You mentioned this pivotal word flow. In order to achieve flow, flow is simply when you no longer are conscious of time in the midst of a task. In order to achieve flow, you need automatic feedback, autonomous feedback. In order to get that feedback, you need to set goals. So there are principles, objectives in life within micro constructs where goals have value. I'm talking about the macro look of life where goals will do more damage than they will success. Or at least, goals will just be a limiting reactive.

Gotcha.

Because I always think, what if Roger Bannister wasn't just trying to break the 4-minute mile? How much faster could he have gone? You never know. He went, he went 3:59.8. He broke it barely. There's literally 2 tenths of a second was the difference. How much faster could he have gone? Maybe no faster, right? But maybe if my goal, Lewis, was to write a book, I would have wrote a book. I wouldn't wrote the second one. And I might not have written the third one. So that's where I'm thinking, like, bigger picture. I just want to see people be the best version of themselves.

So how do we— I mean, people are going to fail, but you're saying to reframe failure or to not even look at failure as an option? Because if you don't set the goal, you can't fail in that sense.

Bingo. I, I thought about this the other time. I don't, I don't think people fail. What I say is this: and I thought about this, I didn't fail, I fell. And as long as I get up, I win.

Ooh, yeah. Like a child. A child falls hundreds and thousands of times and they never think to themself, maybe this walking thing isn't for me.

Dude.

They fell and they get up.

We didn't fail, we fell. As long as you get up, you win. The winning is in getting up. So many people think they failed. They didn't fail.

They stopped.

You stopped. You didn't fail, you just fell.

And you just never got up.

That's it. A relationship didn't work. You didn't fail at that relationship. Ended in divorce, you didn't fail in that relationship. Job, you got fired, you didn't fail. You fell. Get up. You'll look back, you win as long as you get up. So when people keep talking about failure, I don't subscribe to that, but I don't subscribe to goals. Because ultimately, to fail is to put a period where a comma belongs. I ain't doing that no more, big dog.

Or a dot, dot, dot.

Exactly.

To be continued.

I ain't putting periods where commas belong anymore. And then we do that too often in our life. It's like, ah, this relationship ended, period. No, this relationship ended. I found somebody who was more suitable for me, who I am more suitable for. And I now ended up significantly happier than I was before.

That's a good way to look at it. You know, looking at, I mean, I feel like it took me a long time to learn how to walk in relationships. I was just falling and wobbling all over the place. You know, I just needed some coordination sooner, but it took me a while to be able to look back and learn the lesson. And I feel like I'm in a much more stable place. You know, I have coordination with my body now in relationships in terms of walking. And some people learn faster in certain areas of life. But it's, it's not about giving up on love, giving up on your career, your, your books, or your, your message, or your art. Yeah, it's about learning. A friend of mine posted this video. His name is Devin Rodriguez. He got big on TikTok. I think he's got like 30 million followers in the last 2 years. He started drawing people on subways in New York City, and he would just see them, he would draw them, and he'd hand them a sketch, and people would be blown away. He did a video recently where he started learning in 2010 how to draw and he posted a photo from 2010 to 2020 every year, his work, and it was ugly the first 5 years. I mean, it was— you'd throw it away. It was so bad, right? It was like a 5-year-old sketch. It was like something I would do right now. It's about how I draw. But now it looks like you take a photo of someone and he can draw it perfectly. But it took him 10 years to master the skill. He didn't fail the first 5 years, 7 years. He fell forward but kept improving. I think it's a beautiful lesson you're talking about. Don't think of it as failure, think of it as falling.

Bro, and so many people in our life, even our loved ones, want to tell us that we failed. And we begin to believe them. And that's the problem. We've all committed to believing the lie that we have failed in life. We failed in our school, we failed in our relationships, we failed in our jobs. We haven't actually failed, but if you believe and listen to a lie long enough, you will be convinced that it's the truth.

Yeah.

And what I now practice is detangling so many of the lies that we've been told over time, deconstructing reflecting so many of the thoughts that we've believed over time. Because it's those thoughts and it's those lies that bog us down. And bro, this also blew my mind. The Mona Lisa. I went to Paris last summer. I went to Paris, I went to the Louvre. And bro, you been to the Louvre?

I think I went to the outside. I didn't go inside, but yeah.

So I'm in the Louvre and there's art everywhere. There's art on the ceiling, there's freaking art on the walls, walls, art on the left side. There's art everywhere. As I'm walking through this, you know, hundreds of acres seemingly, I see a huge long line for the Mona Lisa. I don't know yet though. I don't know. So I'm like, what in the heck is this line for? It's art everywhere, y'all. Why y'all standing in the line to see a piece of art? Just look left. I turned the corner, huge line for the Mona Lisa. I was like, I ain't waiting in the line, so I'm gonna just walk by and see. I look at it, it's nice. It's nice.

It's a painting.

It's a painting painted somewhere from 1503 to 1518, I believe, uh, historians suggest. You realize if the Mona Lisa were painted today, might go to garage sale for $20?

Yeah, maybe.

Maybe. But why? Because the Mona Lisa back then depicted a pale woman with thin lips and a large forehead, and that was the depiction of beauty back then. Depiction of beauty in 2022: sun-kissed skin, you know, thin waist, nice build. But why, bro, do we subscribe to a definition of beauty that somebody else set? Because you can never catch it. The definition of beauty in the 1500s, vastly different than the definition of beauty now. What was beautiful then, we don't value now. What we value now, we don't value then. But either way, we didn't even set it. Back to, why do we let such significant insignificant people have significance in our lives. And man, I'm just like, what all are we believing?

Yes.

That we just don't need to.

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So what would you say people can do to build self-confidence if they're doubting themselves? What are some things, if it's not setting and accomplishing goals, what can we do to build it?

Well, like you just said, self-confidence starts with self. And I think, and this is what I will tell, I will share, I believe you and I have had this conversation either off or on on or off the record. June 9th, 2020, get that call from Oprah. And when Oprah calls me, she says these words. Well, okay, true story, let me not lie to you. I missed the call. Oprah and I did a conversation on Apple TV, Uncomfortable Conversations meets the Oprah Conversation. I missed the call. Oprah's right-hand woman rushes in, "Hey, great job, Emmanuel, but I think Oprah called you." I scurry to call her back, I call her. This is what she says. You have the thing, my friend. You have the thing. And coming from someone who had the thing and has the thing, you, my friend, you have the thing. So I'm like, yo, Oprah just told me I have this thing.

She just anointed me with the thing.

So what is the thing? She said you have an ability to communicate with people difficult truths and they still want to hear you. So what would my advice be to people who are trying to get that confidence without setting goals? I would tell them what Oprah told me. You have the thing. The question is, what is the thing? What is the ability that you are uniquely skilled, gifted, and/or excel at? We all have it. I promise you, you have it, because we all do. Your thing might be an incredible painter. Your thing might be simply being a servant, a great listener. Your thing might be being great with kids. Your thing might be being great with animals. You might be great with secretarial tasks. You might be a skilled mathematician, but you have the thing. So for those that are lacking confidence, you don't need to set a goal to know that you're skilled. You just need to believe that you're skilled, and you need to figure out what is it that you are skilled at. I shared this story today on my social media, but you my boy, let me share it now.

Yes.

2014, I'd been released by the Eagles for the 5th time.

By them or by—

By the Eagles.

Holy cow.

How do they keep bringing you back?

They cut me, they would sign me back. They cut me, they would sign me back.

Oh my gosh, man.

They cut me, bro, for the 5th, by the, the Eagles cut me for the 5th time by the age of 24. When I got cut this time, my coach, Southern drawl accent, he said this, he called me E. He said, E, I wish I could buy stock in your future.

I was like, huh?

He said, I wish I could buy stock in your future. I said, coach, You wish you could buy stock in my future? You all just released me for the 5th time.

That's crazy.

In the last 2 years, and I'm not even 25 yet. Fast forward 7 years, 8 years, I realized what he was saying. He saw in me what I hadn't even seen in myself. Not as a football player, but as a person.

Mm-hmm.

My coach texted me about 3 months ago and he said, He said, "Stock price is too high now." Oh, that's pretty cool. And so what I would just tell people is like, "Man, I wish I could buy stock in your future." Mm-hmm. Because my coach saw in me what I didn't see in myself. And I think sometimes it's our job to see in people what they don't even see in themselves.

You know what's interesting is we should be reinvesting in our own stock daily. Mm-hmm. And like pouring back into ourselves, buying into ourselves so that we appreciate over time. The more we do that by acquiring skills or learning how to heal traumas of the past or, uh, mending friendships or forgiving people or, you know, being consistent with the habits that help us live a better life, we will ultimately be more valuable in the future.

Correct.

So start investing now.

That's it. Like, investing in yourself and learn to fall in love with yourself.

Absolutely. On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the highest form of self-love, 1 being the lowest form of self-love, where are you on that scale? Not, not if you stripped your ego away. Yeah. And the, the shell, and you looked within your heart and you said, I love myself unconditionally, this much on the spectrum of 1 to 10, where would you be at?

A 6 and a half.

Where were you 2 years ago?

Huh? Pre-MCO?

Pre-MCO?

Uh, an 8.

Okay, so you love yourself more before you love yourself now.

Why? I believe that—

this is interesting—

expectations minus reality equals disappointment. Expectations minus reality equals disappointment.

You didn't have expectations before that? No, man.

Before Uncomfortable, there was no expectations, not by the world. I had my own expectations, but the world had no expectation of me. Now my expectations are freaking through the roof. Now you're number one bestseller, you've won an Emmy, you got a show, sit down with you. Expectations are through the roof. So now I've gotten harder on myself, um, because you and I spoke about this in our off-camera combos. Just as good as our on-camera combos. It's so hard to maintain excellence. It, it will keep you up at night. It will take years off of your life. It will cost you to burst blood vessels in your vocal cords, which I have. It is so hard, unbelievably hard, to try to maintain excellence. And that is why I'd say instead of 6.5, because I'm just hard on myself now.

Wow.

And I'm hard on everybody around me. Now, I believe that the fun isn't winning. You know, my coach told me the fun isn't winning. I've never met too many happy people that don't win.

You said the fun is or is not?

Fun is.

Isn't winning.

My coach, linebacker coach, back in the day.

No one's having fun losing all day.

Nobody. And so instead of 6.5, because I'm just—

But you're winning.

You're winning more than 2 years ago. Yes, but bro, and again, Will Smith, you've got 3 books in 2 years, an Emmy, massive press over the world, massive social media following. You're changing lives, you're impacting people, you're spreading your voice to the world.

The biggest fear—

and you love yourself less.

The biggest fear, dude, isn't in non-attaining and not attaining. The biggest fear is in having it and losing it.

So how do we let go of that? How do we let go of that fear?

Well, to let go of that fear—

what are you going to lose? What could you lose? In theory, reputation, or like, right?

You could lose reputation, you could lose, uh, emotional comfort, you could lose financial stability, emotional stability, and thus you could ultimately lose spiritual stability.

And then what? Lose it all, then what?

Honestly, it probably wouldn't be all that bad.

Where were you 5 years ago?

You know, where was I 2 and a half years ago?

Exactly, man. You were fine.

You were great.

In all honesty, here's the thing. Now, now what you're saying— this is a powerful conversation. What you're saying is with success, you love yourself less.

Yes.

Twist. I would say that my highs are high and my lows are low. My highs are significantly higher.

Yes.

And my lows are lower.

Okay.

So, and I think that is what lands you, bro. 2 and a half years ago, just chilling. Yeah. Not much good. I'm just here. Yeah. Now, Emmy.

There's more at stake.

Solitude. Number one bestseller. Isolation. Oh man. You know, it's just, it fluctuates.

So how do, how do we become the Tom Bradys of life, you know, where it's just more even keel.

Well, here's what's interesting. Let's not be bamboozled by Brady.

Oh yeah, he could be emotional.

Well, here's why I say let's not be bamboozled by Brady. If you are married to someone for 22 years and then you file for divorce and you go back within 2 months, there's an issue either internally with you or you didn't think through your decision. Tom Brady was married to the game of football for 22 years, right? Divorced the game of football. Now he's coming back, and then within 2 months was like, you know what, give me this football back. It makes me wonder, like, how happy was Brady without it? Clearly not.

Maybe he just wasn't done.

Sure.

I mean, he can still play at the highest level. He's still one of the best in the game.

But the question that you just asked me is what I would ask him, is like, what, you still— okay, what happens if you don't play? What happens if you lose it, right? Like, yeah, I, I, I think Brady's greatest accomplishment was walking away playing at the highest level. No top 5 or top 10 player in the history of American sports has done that. None. The late great Kobe Bryant, one of your best interviews on this show, the late great Kobe Bryant, his last year played 60 games out of 82. Second to last year, he played 35.

His last game, however, went crazy. Wasn't bad.

60 points on 40 shots.

Wasn't bad. He went out on top.

That went crazy. Phenomenal. But the Kobe in the last 3 years wasn't a championship. Yeah, he was just hurt. I mean, think about our greatest of greats, Peyton Manning. Albeit his team won a Super Bowl, he was hurt. So I think you go out on top, but I think back to the crux of this combat, that conversation there's a dichotomy of success. And I love what Oprah says, and I believe she says it best: you can have everything, but you can't have it all at once.

Oh yeah, can't have all of what though? Because I feel like you can be healthy, you can be fulfilled, you can have love in your heart, you can have a beautiful relationship, and you could be on your journey of a fulfilling life mission?

Yes.

So what does it mean you can't have it all? I mean, I can't—

what?

I don't know, what is this all?

I think all is in the context of which he's speaking is like, there are no— there are no, uh, uh, uh, what should I say? It's like, okay, having it all is like, if you want to be the best media mogul.

Yes, you can't also be a—

you can't full-time traveling musician or something, or like an athlete, or even like you, Tom Brady, you can't be the greatest quarterback of all time and also be the greatest husband. Something's got to get on. 24 hours in a day, right? So the time you are putting towards football, you're taking away from your kids. Time you're giving your kids, you're taking away from football. Like, something has to give. Um, and so when I think about it, it's like, something's gotta get—

well, I mean, if you've been trying— I mean, just, I don't know, I don't know Brady's life or what, what is going on there, but if you've given so much to one thing for decades and you've built momentum, you don't ride on it, but you've laid the groundwork. So maybe you can have more time for family or other things, downtime, once you've done 20 years of effort to master your skill. So there might be, you know, at a certain point you can transition into, okay, now I have more time with friends or family or whatever it is. Again, I don't know his personal life, but— so maybe not all at once, but I think—

correct. But it's an interesting exploration.

Absolutely.

It's an interesting exploration. As so many people, when they hang it up, retire from their profession, I just want to spend more time with my spouse and my kids.

I mean, Oprah hung it up, right? I mean, she stopped her show, she transitioned into different shows and projects.

Correct. And now, you know, she'll do 3, 4 conversations a year. She'll produce a couple things.

She's got her Apple show, right? She's correct whenever she wants to do it, I guess.

But she, um, you know, when she was banging out her show 260 days a year, I mean, just go, crush it, going, going. Um, but I think even she would admit, like, and her and I spoke last week, I think even she would admit, like, didn't have the same level of downtime, didn't have the same peace about life, didn't have that same tranquility. Absolutely. Even you grind in a way, dude.

Absolutely. We're in the grind phase right now.

You're in the grind phase.

We're in the growth phase.

You finished one conversation, you having another conversation.

But at one point, at one point, I see an evolution, you know, and it's been evolving over the last 9 years, and I see an evolution of when you bring in an amazing team and you're able to systematize and you're able to create other, you know, parts of a network and shows. It doesn't have to be you grinding in the same area. Correct.

Correct.

You can evolve.

I can't wait for that, you know.

I mean, it's like if you wanted to do 10 more books, you're not going to be the one that has to write them all yourself. You can have support, a ghostwriter to help with you, or an editor or something, so it's not just all you. You can evolve beyond it.

Correct.

But there is a period of time where we must go all in on the foundation.

Absolutely.

For years to do— if you want to do anything at a high level, you've got to obsess over something, you know, an instrument, your art, your craft, or whatever it might be. So 100% agree that you can't have it all. I can't be the greatest public speaker in the world and a media host and this and playing the guitar and touring around the world or whatever. It's like, but I feel like you can have your all.

So then, then it comes down to if people's all— like, my all right now is significance. People say, Emmanuel, how'd you get so successful? I don't care about success. I care about significance.

What does that mean? Impact. Yeah, being service.

Impact.

But significance, I feel like when I think of significance, it's me being significant as opposed to being of service and creating significance in the world.

I, I say they're the same. Why would I say they're the same? Is you being of service is significant to you?

Sure.

Like, for example, um, it was 2014. I'm laying in my bed in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I'm playing for the Eagles time, and these words came into my head and I never was able to shake them. And I literally, I end Illogical with this. That's the last thing in the book. My desire is to inspire those to go higher past the required so those I admire can also admire whom they've inspired before they expire.

Oh, that's beautiful.

And it was like, I was like, wait a second. I was laying in there and it was literally what you just said. Impact, significance. My desire is to inspire those to go higher. 'Past or acquired, so those they admire can also admire whom they inspire before they expire.' I was like, that's my life. I didn't come up with it, it was just imprinted onto my heart. My true desire, dude, I just want to inspire people to be a better version of themselves.

Yes.

So that the people who admire me, I can admire them before I get up outta here. Wow. That—

So you mentoring or— supporting others, you can go. Yeah, exactly, dude.

What's one of my favorite things is when people are like, I saw your Uncomfortable Conversations and I use that and we've now built a curriculum around it or at our job. I'm like, y'all admired me for sitting down and having these conversations. Now in turn, I'm admiring you for having conversations based upon a conversation I had.

That's cool.

I'm like, that, bro, is my deepest desire.

Now, now here's my— I'm going to get back to this because I want to put a bow around this topic of self-love. What's it going to take for you or anyone as they start to break through certain levels of success or accomplishment or whatever they might be looking for? What's it going to take for people to increase their level of self-love with criticism, with the weight of gold, as the Olympians call it. The, the, I don't know if you've seen that documentary, The Weight of Gold. Powerful about how Olympians, not all, but some of them get extremely depressed after they accomplish the gold medal or the Olympics. Some even commit suicide and it means different things because what's next? And I'm living from this past now as opposed to something greater for myself. So how can we, when we accomplish, when we succeed, when we get recognition, significance, develop deeper sense of self-love, as opposed to you go from an 8 to a 6.5. I'm not saying it's bad or something, but how do you stay at an 8 or improve as you make more impact in the world, as you accomplish more and have more that you've received? That's my question for you on how you can do that personally and how we can support others in doing that as they accomplish.

I think it's a constant journey. I'd be lying if there was an answer. I think it's a constant journey. And again, I've referenced it so many times, but I felt so seen in reading Will's book because he was like, I was my own drill sergeant. His own drill sergeant. And I think it's a constant journey, man, of trying to say like, hey, it's okay to fall. Yes, it's okay if absolutely your books don't best sell.

Absolutely.

It's okay if a conversation doesn't go as, as great as you thought. It's okay if this date didn't go as great as you thought. It's okay if this relationship ends. It's okay if this job isn't for you. It's okay. And I think it's that constant exploration of saying like, yo, it's okay not to be okay. And what you just said is like, dude, what happens if you lose it all? You're back where you were 2 years ago. And I think—

Where you were innate, self-love.

I think it's reconciling that. I think it's reconciling, like, let go of that fear of failure. Because I've let it, that's why I stopped setting goals, is to let go of that. But now it's like, now that you've achieved, it's okay. Just, to me again, it's just a matter of like, hey, you've made it. But if we're being honest, there's just a dichotomy that I'm, that I'm figuring out along this line.

I think this would be powerful for you over the next few years, or whenever you figure this out, to share with me or share with your audience how people can accomplish, achieve, and have the responsibility of success and continue to have immense self-love. And I think it comes to— for me, what I've learned is letting go of the expectation. Of the accomplishments. You know, my last book, my first book was a New York Times bestseller, and then there was an expectation, well, I gotta make the next one a New York Times bestseller. Probably same for you. I gotta make this just as big, if not bigger. And I remember going into it saying, my last book, I was like, you know what, I'm writing a book that's probably not gonna be the biggest thing ever, 'cause it's talking about how men can be more vulnerable. And it came out right when Me Too happened. So I was writing this a couple years before, and it came out during it. I was like, this could either be the biggest thing in the world or this could be like the last thought people have, is how men can heal their hearts. And it did well, but didn't hit New York Times bestseller list. And I remember for a day I was like, if I'm being honest, I was upset and angry and frustrated that it didn't, it hit the numbers, but it didn't hit the list. And then I said, what was the reason why I wanted to write this in the first place? It was to be able to help one man who might be going through mental challenges or struggles. To heal and improve the quality of their relationship with their partner, their friends, their family, and then their community and the world. And it's been doing that. It's been continuing to do that year after year. And I'm just like, I gotta keep focusing on the impact and the significance, like you call it, the service to one human being or thousands or millions, whoever wants to listen or read or consume. And when I, it took a few days to kind of let that go, my ego, go of being hurt or frustrated or angry, angry. And when I did that, I just said, okay, I'm going to just really appreciate the people that are reading it, they're messaging me, and take it in and be like, wow, that was impactful to that person. And that's been a big game changer for me. It still doesn't mean I don't want to accomplish goals and all these things and, and, you know, succeed in my own, in my own right, but it letting go the expectation of it needing to look a certain way has been extremely helpful. For me still loving myself even with the success. And I think it's hard to do though, because the bigger you get, people expect it. You expect it. That part, it's the expectation. People expect it and they'll look at you differently. Oh, why didn't it get New York Times this time? Or why didn't it do a million copies this time if it did half a million last time? Or that video you got 5 million views, why did this one get a million?

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To me, there's such a fear of, in life in general, in my mind, of other people's expectations of you.

Gosh. So how do we let go of that?

I've journeyed with it and at times I do well with it, at times I don't. I'll say it in story form. Mortuus queus phobia. Mortuus queus phobia. The fear of ketchup. True thing. 6th grade, bro. 6th grade. I'm at my friend's house eating a burger and his older brother walks in and he throws something at the table. My friend runs and hides behind the chair. I'm like, yo, what the heck just happened? I look at what his brother threw at the table and I see it was a ketchup packet. After checking on my friend, I bust the packet open, I finish eating my fries, and I was like, wait a second, I've already thought about that story and learned a lesson. We can't be afraid of other people's fears. And so often in life we're afraid of other people's people's fears. Imagine if I would have ran and hid because of a ketchup packet like my friend did. Friend was afraid of ketchup, mortuoscruophobia. I am not, but I'm not gonna hide because he was hiding. And I think what I've done at times is being afraid of other people's fears. So we all do, like we're afraid of getting into a relationship because our friends are afraid of commitment. We're afraid of getting out of that toxic relationship because our friends are afraid of being single. Well, we've never left a small city in Texas, our parents haven't, so we're not going to. And I think the only way to get rid of that is to let go of other people's fears, let go of other people's expectations. Because truth be told, it's other people's expectations that kind of dictate the weight of our own imagination.

Absolutely.

Success.

Absolutely.

When you think about one-hit wonders in the music industry, They're one-hit wonders because we called them that. We called them a wonder, and we said that song was a hit. So I think it's a matter of not being afraid of other people's fears and letting go of other people's expectations, which dictate our own, man.

If you could go back— when was the post you did, the first post? 2 years ago?

It was June 1st, 2020.

June 1st, 2020. If you could go back the day before June 1st, and have a conversation with yourself from where you are now to that day. And you're about to go in and do this thing, or maybe it's the morning of and you're about to put this video out that you've been thinking about and you wrote the script to— or you didn't write the script, I think it was all off the cuff, but you've been organizing in your mind for a period of time. And sit down, if you were going to literally stand face to face and have a conversation with yourself almost 2 years prior, what would you say before you jumped in and did this video? With everything you know now, what would you say?

I would say 2 things. The first would be, breathe, it's gonna be okay. Because I, I, I couldn't eat that morning. I didn't say anything. I'd say, breathe, it's gonna be okay. And then I would say, buckle up, your life is about to change forever. Wow. Because when I recorded that video, I lived in Austin, Texas. I now live in Los Angeles, California. When I recorded that video, I worked for another sports network. I've since switched. When I recorded that video, um, I had no team outside of a broadcasting agent. I now have a team of like 5 to 10 people. When I recorded that video, I wasn't in partnership with Oprah. I now am. I would say buckle up, Man, your life's about to change forever. And I say prepare yourself, um, because it's about to be a roller coaster of good and bad.

What did you need to prepare yourself? How could you have prepared yourself more emotionally?

Emotionally, um, I could have let go of my desire to please all people. I think it's Abe Lincoln, you are either pleased all people some of the time, or some people all the time. I could have prepared myself. Nobody prepares you, in my mind, for like how to be well-known unless you're the son of somebody famous, right? And famous, you know, and it's famous relative. That's why I said well-known. Nobody prepares you for that, and nobody prepares you for the constant opinions of other people, bro. It's hard. I hit a depth of loneliness after I I first saw you maybe a month later. Really? In December of 2020. Just depressed. Really? Yeah, because thousands of people, I love you, thanks for the conversations. But then I'm sitting in my house in Beverly Hills just by myself, just, you know, no friends, middle of a pandemic, just isolated. Nobody prepares you for the constant comments, acho, you're a sellout. Constant comments, acho, you're a race baiter. Acho, you're a race grifter. Nobody prepares you for that. So I would have told myself, buckle up, um, it's going to be tough, but it'll be worth it.

And if you were sitting in front of yourself right now, your 2-year-old self older than today, what would you say to prepare you for these next 2 years? So now your future self—

yeah, what would it say to this self?

Yes. And with everything that you've created and learned and are going to learn, and you have this experience now, your future self— what would your future self say to you?

Enjoy the process. Enjoy the process. I think the biggest thing I've forgotten, and I think the biggest thing so many people can forget, we forget to enjoy the process. We forget to enjoy the journey. Yes. The fun isn't winning, but you can still find enjoying the journey, win or lose. And at times I don't enjoy the process because I'm so focused on moving that I don't enjoy where I am. When you have an objective without limitations, it's all about movement, man. It's all about movement. But you gotta enjoy the journey. These conversations, enjoy them. Your third book, dude, I'm the only person not named Oprah to have multiple books under the Oprah imprint.

That's right. It's crazy, man. Enjoy it. Enjoy it.

I didn't know, I, I didn't know Oprah 17 months ago. She walked right by me.

I got 3 books now.

I got 3 books. So enjoy the journey. Enjoy the process.

I think everyone needs to hear that for sure. Illogical: Saying Yes to a Life Without Limits, Emmanuel Acho. This thing is going to be inspiring. Lots of great lessons, um, wisdom, stories. Yeah, don't let other people's fears become your own. That's what I just opened up. So the first thing I opened up right there. So don't let other people's fears become your own. Powerful stuff, man. I got a couple final questions for you. I asked these same the last time. Before I ask them, I want people to follow you on social media. You got great content over there. If you love sports and life lessons, you always have these great moments when you're at the sports desk Sharing your life lessons, which I love that stuff. Um, get the book Illogical: Saying Yes to a Life Without Limits. Make sure you guys check this out. Get a few copies for your friends, share with people. And if anything, when you're reading it, you get a handsome smile on the back of the book. So make sure you spread the light and love with your friends. Um, this is called the 3 Truths. I asked you last time, and I've got your 3 truths here. I'm curious if it's changed. If this was your last day and you've accomplished everything you want to accomplish and you've lived as long as you want to live, but eventually you got to turn the lights out and you can't leave anything behind— your message, your content, your books— there's none of this behind. So all of your words and content goes with you somewhere else. But you had 3 things you could share with the world, 3 lessons, what I like to call 3 truths. What would you say were yours?

Oh, it's so funny because it's been, what, 18 months and I don't I don't remember what I said last time. I can't wait for this. I think my most important truth, love God, love others. I think I'll never flinch or waver on that. Love God, love Jesus, love others. That's me as a man of faith. I can't waver from that. I think my second biggest truth, Man, and I love this, and I forever loved it. You're worth getting to know.

Uh-huh.

You're worth getting to know, man. I think that's hit me more now than ever, bro, is like people don't realize they're valued and people don't realize like you are worth getting to know.

Absolutely.

My third biggest truth, ah, where would it be right now? I could only leave a truth, um You have the ability to change the world. You truly do. And I just wish people would believe that. Changing the world looks different for different people, but you have the ability to change your world. Um, those would be my three. What were my three last time?

If people want to know, they have to go listen. You had two of the three identical.

Yeah.

So if people want to know what they are, they'll have to go check that out. We'll have it linked up for you to listen to that. Um, before I ask the final question, Emmanuel, I want to acknowledge you, man, for your constant growth and your commitment to service. I think, um, people could get scared of success or they get scared of the growth as fast as you've had it. And the fact that you keep showing up, keep delivering And I think learning about yourself in this process is really beautiful. And keep serving. It's really cool, man. And I just am excited to know that you're continuing on this journey, that you're gonna keep showing up. I don't see you stopping anytime soon. No matter what happens with books and projects and other stuff, just keep serving. And I really acknowledge you for being authentic to who you are, man. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing to witness. My final question, what's your definition of greatness?

Ah. That's definitely changed since. My definition of greatness. Oh, um, my definition of greatness would be stepping outside of the box that others have built around you and constantly becoming the greatest version of yourself. I don't like using a definition of definition, so stepping outside of the box that others have built around you and constantly becoming the best version of yourself, constantly evolving. We have to constantly evolve and learn to fall in love with the evolutions of ourselves. So now step outside of these boxes, bro, because there is a box there. Step outside of it. Let's evolve and let's just become the best version of ourselves, man.

My man, appreciate you.

Freaking brother.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you, and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. Who knew Walmart Business could help boutique bed and breakfasts elevate the guest experience? Terri knew. She uses Walmart Business to get the items she needs for all the properties she manages.

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