World’s #1 NARCISSIST Expert: THIS Is How You IDENTIFY & HEAL From Toxic People | Dr. Ramani

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When you're three months in and this person's gaslighting you and manipulating you and doing shady stuff and invalidating you and you're making excuses for that, that's trauma bonding. So someplace between attraction and trauma bonding is a process. And that's the process we'd love to be able to short circuit. But the problem is most of that process is something we call love bombing. Foreign.

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It's possible. I see love stories after narcissistic abuse for people all the time, but let me tell you, it's a bumpy road to get there. And I think that. So what I want to tell people is it's possible, it's not easy. I read this. Someone in my healing community brought this interesting line from David Kessler's work. I'm sure you know David Kessler. If you don't, you should. You gotta have him on. He's great. He is probably, to me, one of the best voices in grief that's out there, right? He worked with Kubler Ross back in the day. Like, he's that guy. And he had this beautiful passage in a book. Like I said, someone in my healing community was sharing it just in terms of trying to understand the grief from narcissistic abuse. And he said loss is optional. And what he meant by that is he was talking about his own process of grief. And he said, I could choose. There's one way to avoid losing is to never love again, to never have a pet, to never have a lover, to never have a partner, to never have a friend, and to not Have a family. And then you won't experience loss, but you won't experience life. And I thought it was so beautiful because it was that idea of loss is optional. These do at some level do become choices. And I think for me, for survivors of narcissistic abuse, feeling the sense of autonomy which tends to be stripped away by these relationships. Grief is a process you go through. And during grief it is. And I've been working with several grief stricken clients recently, either through death or through, or through the loss of these relationships. And it is such, it is the most human of experiences like birth and death. Grief is the experience that unites everyone and we have some pretty universal reactions to it. And the big mistake we're making now in modern times is we believe we can rush through grief, that we can control ourselves, get over it quickly, get over it quickly.

And it find someone else quickly, get.

Over it quickly, move on. I can, I'm work, I, I'm not thinking about it anymore. I'm back at work, I'm good, I'm back in my routine. And grief is a funny thing because it's gonna come for you. It might be sitting in the back, it's like, be careful. And I can't tell you how often people say like and because people who go through narcissistic relationships become masters of dissociation. And I don't mean sort of the full blown traumatic dissociation, but like, I'm not feeling that. I'm not seeing that. They're very good at pushing everything away because that's the only way to survive in these relationships. But you also get good at cutting out the pain, right? Going through in this world, in this numbness. But going back to this idea of loss is optional. What you'd have to live. No love, no partner, no nothing. I guess you wouldn't go through that same breach of trust or betrayal and all the pain we go through when we love. But then you wouldn't have love. And what else is the experience of being a human being but to connect to other people? And the reason I say this is that when you're in those acute stages of grief, you're not thinking about like, good, let loss be optional. I am not signing up for it. Thank you. But then there's a point at which you say, but I want to feel again. And you know, there's nothing more beautiful to me when I'm working with a survivor, when they do say, I think I'm ready to start feeling people again, but I'm so scared and I, first of all, I remind them, girl, you survived that anything else, someone brings new, you're going to be fine. You got this, right? But that fear, it is overwhelming for people that how will I survive if this is done to me again? How will I ever have faith in any human being again? And above all else, the point you made, how will I ever trust myself? And that loss of trust in the self is what really bums me out. Because now these are people who are saying they're still having trouble making decisions or I've got bad judgment. And so a lot of the work and a lot of what I talk about and it's not you, is the fine art of discernment. And my big point there, okay, everyone talks about wellness, wellness, wellness. Eat, drink the right juice, drink the right tea, eat the right kale, do the right workout, do the right discern, discern, pick, pick well, wear the right workout clothes and cotton and all this. I'm like people, I get it. You do you. But can we bring that kind of discerning awareness to people we're not discerning when it comes to the people we let in our life. Oh, you're gonna abuse me. Come on in. I'm like, you might as well smoke a pack of cigarettes at that point. You're so careful about what you eat. Stay. Stop doing that. Eat junk food for all I care. Just be careful about who you let in.

Don't allow emotional abuse to come in.

Exactly. And don't. And don't enable and don't keep making those excuses like we let toxic people in so close and fast.

Why is that so common for people to make excuses for their partners, bad behaviors consistently for how they treat them? Why do we allow that? Why do we excuse that? Why do we continue it?

You love them. I mean, you love them.

Do we love them? Or is it a false sense of love?

I think that when. Then we get into a philosophical discussion of chemical bonded.

Is it, you know, is it you.

Think you love them?

Yes.

You know, it's. Listen, if somebody behaves badly on a first date, they try to grab the waitress's and they, and they yell at you and they scream at you and they curse at you.

You're like, okay, you're probably not going to be in a second date with that.

I'm going to be a second date, second date, third date, even. You probably won't put up with it once you get deeper into it.

Why, though? Why do we put up with bad behavior after, you know, three, six months to three Years and then we stay in it when we wouldn't have been in that relationship early on if they did.

That one I'd almost say is more cognitive and almost behavioral, economic and sort of sunk cost fallacy stuff. I've already put in three months into this relationship. Can I look at more dating profiles? Like I gotta make this one work. It's like you and you don't want to return the thing to the store. I'm like, we make this one work. Okay, there's that. Okay, that. But that's very cognitive. That misses what I think is more powerful, which is the somatic physical things that happen in us. Old scripts get evoked. If you were a child who made excuses for an invalidating parent, if you were a child who had to cater to the needs of a parent, all those accommodations in you, those start is intimacy brings that out, right? Because a parental relationship has its form of intimacy. It's a closeness, it's a attachment. So those old scripts start getting activated and our natural tendency to fix, to rescue, to excuse, to justify in the name of attachment, all of that kicks in pretty quick. So by the three months in, especially if there's things you like, you're attracted to the person, they're smart, they're clever, you have fun, you've gone on a nice trip, you like the sex, all of those things which at some level are kind of superficial, they keep someone in the game, right? So in order to keep attached to this person that you're feeling, that you're enjoying, you get your. Some of us are really good at those trauma bonded justifications. There's people out there, frankly, Louis, who are actually good at three months out to say this isn't healthy and they can step away. They may not be as vulnerable to those internal accommodations made in family of origin.

How do we become more just like. What is a. What are the qualities of a discerning person? How do you know? I have the skills, the tools, the emotional strength and courage to be discerning. What do those skills look like? What are those emotions look like?

So I'm going to tell this. I'm going to go backwards on your answer here. I'm going to get to that sort of the nuts and bolts. Was recently talking with someone who said something so interesting to me because a lot of what her and I talk about is discernment. Discernment, discernment, right? And she said, you know, I've become more discerning because I'm working with you and talking with you, but it means I'M slower, like I'm very, I deliberate on things and I'm very aware of the trauma wounds that are brought up by big ticket decisions, right.

In relationships.

But everyone around her is like, like, what's going on? Like, why are you taking so long? Like, hurry up and make a decision. We like decisive people in our world. We view decisive people as together as confidence. Confident, right? So the, the discerning person can sometimes feel like a waffler when in fact she's like, I and I again. I really believe in somatic, physically held work. I really believe in that. I think that we feel things when they're right. However, that, that there's a wholeness. There's a sensation of wholeness, right. Discernment, number one means slow the hell down. You have to go.

Don't have sex on the first night.

Don't have sex. As tempting as it is, I mean, go home, take care of yourself, but not with them. For no other reason. This is not a moralistic thing at all. It really is not. It is more of a. It muddies up the decision making waters.

Of course.

It creates a different kind of an investment and it even brings up for some people emotions such as shame, which also muddies the waters. Keep it clean.

And then you want to stay, you want to like stay with that person because you've already had sex with that.

Person and you want to prove them wrong that you're not that person. So you see what I'm saying, All.

This stuff speaking about that, what is the biggest, I guess what is the biggest challenge that a woman may have sleeping with a guy on the first date? I'm not saying it couldn't work out.

And it could be plenty of people out there who are listening and saying, I'm married to something for 20 years.

That I had sex with one night stand or whatever.

Yeah, exactly.

Turned into a marriage. But what is the biggest, I guess, challenge that could come if a woman sleeps with a man on the first date?

I think that the expectations shift immediately. Right. And so it's a, you know, Matt Helsing, dear to both of us, talks about standards, right? And I love his work on standards. But it gets real tricky when we talk about narcissistic relationships. That's when him and I kind of like are sort of like this, in this interesting dance. Because none of that standard stuff works in a narcissistic relationship. I'm not saying that only a narcissist has sex with you on the first date. You might meet a really sweet person and You're a sweet person. And two sweet people have sex on the first date. Right. But what it's done, though, is because ultimately, Louis, the connective tissue of a long term committed relationship is respect, compassion, safety, a growth, orientation, attunement. Those are the things I come back to every time. That's it. That's safety in a relationship. And getting to that, like ensuring that you almost have those active ingredients. Because sex is such an emotionally laden space for people, some of us have heard very moralistic, stigmatizing stuff about it. About it. Many people have been. Have histories of sexual abuse or other sort of unwanted or coerced sexual experiences. That muddies the waters. It leaves both people sometimes even sort of confused. What is this about? What are we doing? Yeah, right. What are we doing? Right for what? I do believe in a gendered frame and a binary gendered frame, women get more shamed and feel more shamed for that. They feel as though, okay, well, that's how this person sees me. And so there is that. There's. I still think, even though that feels so patriarchal and throwbacky, I think it's sadly still part of the conversation for how women experience it subjectively. Like, did I just sort of throw myself under the bus here, or have I just made this into something that's not going to last? I don't think that's necessarily so. I think a good partner would not discount a partner for doing that. But I do think it muddies the waters. And if you have sex with a narcissist on the first date, forget it. Forget it. It's going to. Well, because now what's happened is they have, in a way, they have, like, power and control and manipulation giving them the ultimate supply. They're not even a love bomb that much anymore. They're like, okay, great, got what I need. And I hate to say this, Louis, because narcissistic people can be very cruel in relationships. They will actually use that as a tool of punishment and manipulation down the road.

How so?

Forgive me for using really bad language, but, like, you're a slut.

Oh, wow, look what you deal with your down market.

Like, who else you do this with? Or what, are you gonna go do that with someone else? And so now the person feels shamed in the relationship, but the shame feels plausible because they're hearkening back to an event which might have actually felt connected and intimate at the time. But a narcissistic person will always weaponize those experiences. So it leaves a person often questioning themselves or like I don't think of myself as sort of a sexually wanton person. And they're not. They just felt some sense of trust and connectedness that particular time. But the narcissistic person will run with it. So that's why I'm saying since you don't know the person's a narcissist on the first date, best not have sex with them.

How can you know if someone's a narcissist on the first date?

You can't. I mean I'm. Unless it's glaring. I mean the only giveaway. And I would never want anyone to get into a car with someone on a first date. Cause I actually think that's dangerous. I think it's too closed in and that's me in the sort of scary world that Dr. Romney occupies. But if you were in a car or watching them drive, I don't know why you'd watch them drive. But narcissistic people drive quite dangerously. It's often an interesting tell. I'm not saying every dangerous driver is narcissistic, but if you ask me to put $100 down, I'll take the bet every time.

Wow. So what's dangerous mean? Like the reckless or they're screaming at.

People, reckless coming, you know, driving too fast, swerving in and out of traffic, driving faster than the other cars on the road, beeping, honking, giving them the finger. But like in a rageful way like that. Researchers this has been, I can think of a dozen published empirical articles from around the world, driving simulator articles, observation articles, you name it, that have all shown that narcissistic people drive more dangerously. So if you, let's say by day three, you're in a car with them and they're doing that whole, I drove here, right? It took me an hour to drive here and in that hour I'm like narcissist, narcissist. They were cutting me off and I, and I actually never get into it when that happens because if they are in fact narcissistic, I know they're gonna be short fused and it could cause me more problems. So I cut them a wide berth. I'm going to get there when I get there and. But that's often a tell. But other than something that glaring, I mean, sure, you could watch how they treat the person who valet parks the car or the server in the restaurant or the bartender, if they're really that unhinged and they're that disinhibited on the first date that they're rude to these. These folks or. Or inappropriate, intrusive, flirty. Yeah, listen to that. A lot of people say, well, maybe they were a little anxious. I'm like, oh, this is how they behave when they're anxious. Do you really want a relationship with this person? That's. So I would say that those kinds of tiny tells might come up. I would say that it would be. This is a great one, actually. This came up someone I was talking with recently. It was a first or second date, and at the end of the date, it was like one of those times we're in a neighborhood with lots of stuff to walk to. And the. The person. The guy said, hey, you want to go out to this other place for another drink or whatever? And she said. And she done the discernment work with me. And she said. And she said I wasn't. She said to me afterwards, I wasn't feeling it somatically. Right. And she said, no, yeah, I've had such a great time, and. But, you know, I'd love to see you again. I just. And she said, I have to work early. And he got really cold and a little bit angry, and she wondered if she was being too sensitive. I said, no, that's a red flag. Because I said, if you just had a lovely time and a lovely dinner and you had to work. Right. Whatever you had to do the next.

Day, he should respect that.

That you said, I don't want to do.

Hopefully I'll see you next week or something.

Yeah. And the person. What she had said to me is like, I kind of felt like I'd hurt his feelings. And I said, if this is how he's responding to hurt feelings, that level of reactive sensitivity, that's a red flag, too. Those are the kinds of early tells that might be.

It's a lack of emotional, I guess, awareness or lack of emotional maturity or whatever it might be.

Yeah, but it's also a dysreg. It's a reactivity.

I mean, from the guy, it would be that person. Yeah.

He's dysregulated.

Yeah. Which means he's not emotionally safe himself. I guess he's insecure or he needs something or whatever. Right. Maybe.

And you know what? I'm sad for him. Go find a shrink. But this isn't her problem.

Right. Exactly. No, I get it. No more of a sign for her that he's in that state.

Correct. Correct.

That's fascinating. So what I'm hearing you say is one of the greatest skills you can have in spotting or saving yourself from a Narcissist potential narcissism or unhealthy relationship or an unhealthy relationship is discernment.

Discernment. Slowing down, slowing down.

Paying attention and really feeling it in your body.

Feeling it in your body.

Now here's something. How do you know when you're feeling something in your body that feels exciting and wow, this is. I have this. Butterflies and chemistry and connection. How do you know if that's a bad sign or actually something to lean into? Because you're feeling good as well in your body. Not, not like, oh, this is exciting and dangerous, but this feels right.

So here's Tim. It's funny in my, in one of my prior books I write about this at length, but chemistry and connection are really dangerous words to me because they are, they are, they can be trauma bonded words. People say. I don't know what to tell you. It feels familiar. I'm like, familiar is not good because the. Again, that's a great example of the body holding something. Now listen, I'm not saying everyone should go date someone they think is a dud or like I felt nothing. So I'm going to go on a second date.

I'm going to go right into it.

I'm going to go right into it. It's a, it's more of a. I understand. So what do we mean by connection? I guess that's the problem is when somebody says to me, I feel the sense of connection. My question is, shrinks going to be what does that mean to you? Right? Because what you call connection, what I call connection, what a random person on the street calls connection, may be very different things. Right? There's healthy feelings of connection, feeling attuned to feeling seen, feeling heard. A conversation that seems to just flow effortlessly. You don't feel judged, you feel safe. I like, I'll buy that as connection. But connection, when it's sort of like you kind of feel like you're on your back foot that now you're sort of game on and how do I win this person over? And it's a little bit of like you're, you're almost like, it's almost like a match. Like how do I sort of like it's a little bit gamey. That concerns me because that to me could actually be a throwback to somebody feeling as though I have to win this person over. What are the tricks? And you'll see this in people who have sort of a sympathetic, nervous fawn response. Like how do I have to modify myself to win them? That familiarity, especially if that's how somebody had to go through childhood can actually feel like connection.

Wow.

Because it's work, it's exciting. Oh my gosh. Here's something I need to do. But if one doesn't feel worthy of being loved as who they are and somebody comes and just likes you for who you are, well, that's not very fun because I don't have a template for that. You're almost like, what? Why are you like? But when, when you're feeling you have to win someone over, that becomes exciting. So I think that that idea of chemistry can make people irrational. Listen, if you have chemistry with somebody who is empathic, compassionate, kind and respectful, you won the lottery. Call it what it is. You're just a lucky person.

Wow.

Okay. And that's great. And there's people out there who have connection and all those goodies. And they are as blessed by the heavens as a human being can be. Right.

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People who have connection sadly will say we had this kind of connection and that's why I excused the this and excused that and the this and the that. And you know it's funny because when I have worked with people and who are in more trauma bonded relationships, this idea where it's days hot, cold and hot and cold and back and forth and you keep having the same arguments and you're always justifying the hack I have for figuring out whether or not someone's in a trauma bonded relationship, I'll have a client who's in a chaotic dating relationship or like a really unhealthy relationship and will sometimes hit the wall of like I know this is unhealthy, I love them. And I'll say okay right now take a minute Tell me why you love them. And you know the answer I get. When people are trauma bonded, the answer I get or it's chemistry. The answer I get is, okay, Doc, give me a second. Well, you know what? It's. I don't. It's this. I don't know how to describe it. It's like this. I don't know. It's just sort of this connect. That's not an answer.

They can't clearly define why they love it.

See? And. Whereas I ask that to healthy people because I have friends whose marriages are just. They're for the. They're beautiful. And I'll say to my friend, what? Tell me why you love him. And she's like, oh, please. My best friend, like, I love him. Like, we've got each other's backs. I feel like we kind of almost read each other's minds. We do stuff together. He's the first person I want to see in the morning. I. The. I look forward to landing on my flights because he's the first person I text. I miss him when I'm not. Those are answers. Nothing trauma bonded. But the whole, like, I don't know. That's not good.

How do you know if you're entering in a relationship through trauma bonding?

So I don't think anyone enters in that way, Louis. I think that we. We are. Attraction's a pretty universal phenomenon, right? You know, although we might find different things attractive, right? Not different people. Find different people attractive. Attractiveness. You know, there's something that. That sort of. We're attracted to what we're attracted to. We're attracted to whatever is aesthetically pleasing to us, what might feel so much familiar to us. What is sort of normative for our culture. Attraction's attraction. Now, remember, narcissistic folks are charming, charismatic, and confident and successful, right? So that is attractive to everybody, which is why everyone's attractive to Narcissist. Why everyone. Narcissistic people are attractive to everyone. But trauma bonding is not what gets people into relationships. It's what gets them stuck. So a person might be drawn, for example, in a narcissistic relationship to the charm, the charisma, the confidence, the attractiveness, the smoothness, the. The whole thing, the whole package, and say, whoa, wow. Woo. You know, I want. I want to meet them. And you meet them, and they're every bit as charming as they were across the room. That's attraction. When you're three months in and this person's gaslighting you and manipulating you and doing shady stuff and Invalidating you, and you're making excuses for that. That's trauma bonding. So someplace between attraction and trauma bonding is a process, and that's the process we'd love to be able to short circuit. But the problem is, most of that process is something we call love bombing.

No. And it just, like, brings you into the relationship and makes you feel like you're thinking about them all the time or. Yeah.

How do you pull someone out of a fairy tale? It's not easy.

How do you.

And this is why I'm the last person anyone wants to spend Valentine's Day. Interesting. It's my clinical day. I. I'm like, it's best that I just stay locked in with my clients on Valentine's Day and be kept away from everyone else, because I. It's not easy. So when people are in the fairy tale, I say to people, like, listen, if any of you have the discipline to just eat the top off the cupcake, do it. But then don't get involved in the stumpy bottom part. Like, we don't need that. Let's get. You want to ride it out? Ride it out, have some fun. Do some fun things. But it's pretty rare.

Two to four weeks and then stop. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's pretty rare for a person to say, okay, I'm. Or. Or, you know, or to leave after the validation or the third shady thing. Right. I'm a big fan of threes. You know, first time happens, it happens. Second time it happens, it's a coincidence. Third time it happens, it's a pattern, and that's, you know, like, what's happening here. But that overlap. That overlap period where love bombing turns into devaluation is this demilitarized zone. That's a really dangerous place because it's a. It's where the. The good stuff is still happening at a pretty good frequency. But the devaluing starts to come in, and you're now trying to.

You just want the good stuff, and.

You want the good stuff.

Go back to the good stuff. Yeah.

But it's happening enough. You're still getting enough good stuff. So it's almost like you're with this again. It's all intermittent reinforcement, all trauma bonding.

It's not consistent.

It's a slot machine.

I think the last time you're on here, or maybe it was the first time you're on. I didn't really know what narcissism was fully. I was kind of like. And I remember just having all these gasping moments where I was just, like, starting to Realize more and more about the pain of experiencing a narcissistic. Either person or narcissistic tendencies from a person where I had once in a relationship, felt so much love for many, many months. And then this intermittent make wrong or you need to change or this or whatever. It was like this less accepting of me, more shaming of me, diminishing me, trying to change me, but still bringing some of the love. But then it just faded all the way into, you know, 5% of the love and all blame make wrong, gaslighting type of experiences. And when you first started telling me about this, I was just like, man, this is a. It's a pain. It was. Because it's so painful to experience.

It's painful.

And so many people have experienced this in some way, whether it's intimate relationship or a friendship or our parents. And it's painful to be in. It's painful to try to get out of. It's painful to heal from. The whole thing is painful.

It is painful. And I'm so glad you brought up that painful part, because the simplistic view is this person's mistreating you. Step away. But for some people, they'll say, it feels like cutting off my own arm. Like many people when they're a trauma, bonded will say, I'm feeling like a panic attack at the idea of even considering leaving this relationship. You know, not even having the conversation or considering doing it. And so that. So we can't live in tension all the time. That's not how the human. The human nervous system set up. And the human psyche is not set up that way. So how do we dissipate that tension? Cognitive. That cognitive dissonance, we call it. We un. Dissonance it, right? And we make the justifications so the justifications make us feel less tense. And now we've bought another month, six months, 10 years, you know, and when life gets busy, right, which is where. When people might get married to a narcissistic person, and then there's wedding, wedding. And busy, busy. Instead of a household distraction. Then you have kids. I've worked with so many people. That's why 20 to 25 years is not an unusual time for a marriage with a narcissistic person to break up. Because around that time, everything, like, there's no more. There's not so much activity to pay attention to. You're like, I hate this person, right? I hate them. I don't want to be in this house with them anymore. But there was so much activity before work, whatever it was you just dealt.

With it enough, right? Yeah, yeah. This is. You know, I have a lot of compassion for. For people that have experiences because I just remember thinking, like, I would think, how do I get out of this relationship? But it's almost. But I didn't have the courage. Now, I had the courage to do everything else in my life and achieve and go after my goals and have challenging conversations and succeed or whatever it might be. But I lacked the courage to have tough conversations in a previous relationship that kept me in. I lacked the. And when I would think about ending the relationship, I would have heart palpitations.

So what were you afraid of?

Oh, man. Let me go back to the state now because I feel like I'm in a healthy place now. But. Sorry, but I think I. I think I felt like I was a failure if I couldn't make the relationship work. I think I was thinking, something's wrong with me if they're not accepting of me or loving me, or if they're mad or angry with me or if they're. I was thinking, how come we can't just go back to the first few months when it was just like, everything was amazing. There was never any stress. There was never any, like, make wrong or blame or you need to change, you can't do that, or you have to do this. None of that. I was like, why can't we just go back to that experience again and have that more continuously? So. But I just also didn't know what a healthy relationship looked like ever. So I never experienced that from the model of my parents.

That's right. That's right.

I never experienced that from all the relationships I had. So I was unable to know somatically this is healthy. This is the way it's supposed to look, whether we work out or not, you know, based on our values or our vision or whatever. But this feels healthy.

Yeah.

I'd never felt healthy in any relationship.

Yeah.

And so I just didn't know.

No, you don't know. And in some ways, ending. So being honest with yourself about that moment in a relationship where you're like, this is not good for me. I'm afraid. Like you said, I felt a lack of courage, as it were.

And I was also afraid, like, if I end this, this person's going to go out and try to, like, ruin my life.

Okay, well, then. But see, the thing is that that's a real. So those fears. Some of those fears are history. Fears based on history. Some of those fears are fears based on identity. I'm a Failure, some of them fears based on potential reality.

Right.

Because if there's one thing, anyone. Because this is what's challenging about narcissistic relationships. It's actually great when they break up with you. And all my clients will say, what are you talking about? My heart's broken. I'm like, you're gonna be so glad about this. At some point.

That didn't happen, though.

I had to end it. Yeah, you had to end it.

So when I kept saying, please end this, but they wouldn't.

They wouldn't.

Okay. And then they were like, you're. You're breaking everything up. It's your fault. And I'm like, oh, my gosh.

But when you end it, then something that often happens is a period we call post separation abuse. And post separation abuse can be everything from stalking to incessant text and email messages to talking badly to you about.

Telling your friends, reaching out to your.

Friends, putting on passive aggressive posts on social media when they. Clearly, everyone reads it, knows it's about you.

Yeah, of course.

And all of that stuff, large or small, I mean, some of the stuff can be. I mean, obviously the most horrific cases, it's physical violence afterwards. But in, you know, what we're talking about is that not as dangerous, but still psychologically dangerous. People kind of know that's going to happen and they don't want that to happen. And so they say, well, there's one way to avoid this from happening is to stay in it. Right. But to see one of these relationships. So that partly that courage piece is to see a toxic relationship clearly, intimate relationship, clearly. Especially when we've had no template of healthy relationships or a history of. Of. Of relationships where we've made the accommodations in ourselves to make them work, is that to see to. To come into that place of courage, to see clearly that it's not okay and something needs to be done, can give people this tidal wave of terror of that means all this other stuff in my life was a mess too. And it opens up this sort of door on our narratives that we sometimes don't want to look at and examine how these other things have shaped us.

Or examines our parents. Our parents, exactly.

That's my point, is that it feels like too much. But I have to say that. And the other fear that I hear a lot of people have is regret. What if I'm wrong? What if I'm reading this wrong? Those first three months were good. And maybe this is just a bump in the road. And if I walk away from this, and in fact And I'm out there in the desolation of dating profiles and people's puppy pictures. What am I going to do? And now and then I'll never find.

Someone as good as they, and the.

Next person's going to get the better version of them. And so then people go down that rabbit hole, and it's almost like that, you know, it's almost. It's like a kid with a toy. They're like, I don't really want this toy, but I don't want you to have this toy. If you've ever had a sibling, you know, the sibling doesn't give up the ball. But, like, you don't want the ball, but I don't want her to have the ball. It's that. So they. So people, that fear of regret. What if I'm wrong? What if they change? What if they change for the next person? What if they move on quickly? They're going to move on quickly. That's what they do. And all of that. And then I've got a bird in hand and it's so hard to date and all that stuff.

I've invested a year or two years or four years, whatever it is. Right. Gosh. How do you know when you know that someone's narcissistic? That someone's the right person?

The right person?

You know, they say, you know when you know, but how do you fully know mentally, spiritually? Somatically? This is healthy. This is or could be the right person for me.

You're so you're neither indifferent nor ruminating. Does that make sense? And the reason I'm making that distinction.

What does that mean?

Okay, so you're ruminating when it's unhealthy. Like you're ruminating the whole drive to work. Like how I'm. So how could he.

Asking people, your friends, like, why is this happening? And should. What do you think about this? And asking for advice, all that.

So that.

That's bad ruminating. Yep.

Indifference is bad. Because I. I was going to say because you're not thinking about it all the time, but I don't mean not thinking it about it all about it all the time. Because you're literally indifferent to someone and you're like, if they never call me back, I don't care. Right. I would say that in a. In a good relationship, you are looking forward to seeing them. They're the first person you want to tell good news to because you feel validated that they see something in you that you don't see, that they're Genuinely proud of you that they are. But it's more of the looking forward to them. Like, even at the end of the day, I think I'm always amazed. When I was. I have a friend of mine, she's been married for about 30 years. 25, 30 years. And she. She was visiting me over the summer, and I was listening to her talk to her husband on the phone. And they. I mean, they're. They're old married couple. Sorry to friend. If you're listening, you know I'm talking about you. But I was overhearing their conversation and it was so beautiful. It was. He was so solicitous. He works very hard in the summer. She works very hard during the school year. And she wanted to go do all this stuff. And he's like, sweetie, sweetie, you just need some time to yourself. Like, don't put so much on the day. Like, go out there, go with the kids, enjoy the beach. Like, I. So it wasn't like, oh, you're having a vacation and I'm not. And he's like, I miss you so much, but I'm so glad you're having a good time and can't wait to see you. And she was the tone of their voices. But I'm like, oh, my God. After over 25 years, she is as looking forward to talking to him as she probably was when they were first dating. There is a. I haven't. I have several friends in these situations. And there is a. You feel like you sort of. You don't feel like you're looking at a friendship. You feel like. You still feel like you're looking at something, like, special. And I have this fantasy you have, like, imagine if you grew up with parents who had that kind of a marriage. What that does for you, what that does for your heart. But you know what, Lewis? There's people out there whose parents were happily married and they end up with narcissistic folks. And. And that's its own whole kind of mess of a situation.

Whose parents are super happy.

Parents were like, love story.

But what, the kids are narcissistic?

No. The kid marries a narcissist.

Why?

That's a great question, and I'll tell you why. Because I've seen it happen many times.

So they're just so compassionate and loving and accepting or how's it work?

So go back to the charm, charisma, confidence, success, all that stuff, right? So the person's shiny and cool and neat and not. And sometimes that narcissistic person, not only love bombs, person they love bomb their family. Oh yeah, right. And so especially a close knit family where everyone's doing stuff together and so they ingratiate themselves into that system sometimes. Right. Especially the happy family. That's clearly a united front, but they're not a difficult front. And since they love each other and they love their kids, they believe in love. Right. So that kind of cynicism that you'd see in most of the dysfunctional families, I know that they're like, who's this guy? Is more of like, come on in. Like walking down.

Yeah, they're welcoming. Yeah, come down.

So much validation. Right? So then when things start going wonky, talk about the lack of a template. At least those of us from dysfunctional families were like, I know from messy, okay, something messy is happening. I don't have a name for this. But they don't. They literally have not been to this planet before. They're like, what is this place? They're speaking the language I don't understand. And I'll tell you, this actually can be quite tragic. I consulted once, there was a couple of times actually not even once. A few times the with families where one I remember so well, the parents had been married like 48 years, 45 years, really healthy, did all kinds of wonderful stuff together and daughter married a narcissist. Right. And the parents were almost coming to me like, we don't get this. And they said, we're devastated because these parents literally believe that like, well, he's not a very nice guy. So family court is just going to give the parents to the nicer person. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, this is not how this works. Your daughter needs an attorney like yesterday. And they said, well, no, we're already learning this because this process has already begun and we're watching our daughter fade in front of our eyes. And so they said we did. And they felt very guilty because they felt like they'd given her terrible advice because they kept saying, trusting, love him more, love him more. That's what we do in our family. We just love more. And sometimes that would come in the way of giving him more money. That would just be like, you guys go, go away to the Bahamas for the weekend. We'll watch the kids. Like, so it was just like they were basically giving him supply and he was getting worse and cheating on her more. And it was just getting worse and worse and worse. But the family really, they said they were so. And they felt they almost a sense of moral injury that they had done something wrong to Their child by not seeing this. But, Louis, they had no template. And there are people out there who are like, I. They don't know this. They really have this joyful, happy, happy life.

And you want to trust the people, you want to trust the world. You want to be open, you want to be, you know, vulnerable, all that stuff.

But the good thing is. But there's a good thing, is that the woman did have this happy family who was this tremendous source of support. So as the whole thing fell apart. Whereas most people who go through this don't have that. So they're not only do they, Are they going through this nightmarish divorce or something like that, they don't have a family of origin they can turn to, or the family of origin blames them, or the family of origin was half their problem. So they really. It can sort of double down on their grief.

Man. Now, this thing. Four things you said about a narcissist. They're charming, charismatic, confident, and successful. Is that right?

Charming, charismatic, confident, successful, curious, attractive.

Yeah.

I mean, we could keep going.

Shiny, shiny. Now, is it possible to be charming, charismatic, competent, successful, attractive, and not be a narcissist? And please, how do you know the difference between the two?

Well, you know, here's how you know the difference. It's. Here's the thing. Charm and charisma get supply, right? They're like the. The fancy pollen y thing that sticks out of a flower, right? They attract the bees and the birds, right? So there is a. There's an interpersonal skill that's cultivated in the charming and charming and charismatic person. It can happen, right? So how do you know? Because the charming, charismatic, successful, attractive person who's not narcissistic is empathic. They listen, they're warm. They're not. You know, there's always that. That sort of. That. That vision of the person who's at the cocktail party that is talking to you, but they seem to almost be looking through your head at the door behind you to see if something better is coming in. They don't. You don't get that vibe from them. There is a genuineness. They don't monopolize the conversation. They are there. There's a genuine warmth to them. You feel it. I mean, you definitely feel it. And. And it takes a few hits at, you know, sort of a few times up at bat to be sure that that's what you're dealing with. It's a. I mean, listen, I've met charming, charismatic people who are nice, but I've met more that are narcissistic. It's a pretty rare combo, right? Yeah.

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Do you think this is a number? I mean, I'm going to spitball a number because we have never gotten good prevalence statistics. Here's the problem. There's this thing called narcissistic personality disorder that I don't even concern myself with. It is a is a clinical diagnosis that can only be issued by a mental health practitioner who spent enough time with a client to actually unfurl these patterns.

And no narcissists are going to a therapist.

They're often not. And when they do, they're going in for a backdoor reason like addiction, depression, optics, court order, court order being forced ultimatum by a spouse, that kind of thing. So. And a lot of therapists don't issue it because it's stigmatizing diagnosis and insurance you know what I'm saying? It's a. The whole world of diagnosis is messy. And usually the way we figure out the prevalence of a disorder is what we call epidemiological studies, where people are brought in and like, they're actually just put through the interviews and they're anonymous and it's not going on any record. Right. Those studies of NPD show 1 to 6% prevalence. Right. But again, in the country, in the.

In the country, which is like the strong on the spectrum of narcissism, they're at the, like the highest, they're at.

The most, they're in the research studies. I can't even say they're at the highest. And it's one thing I do want to correct is that just because someone has NPD doesn't mean they're more severe. It merely means they were diagnosed.

That's it.

Does that make sense?

There might be others who haven't diagnosed.

But they're more severe, way worse. Right. But if we were to look at across from mild to severe narcissism, because it is on the spectrum, so mild to severe across the population, the spitballed number that I think most of us in the trenches would probably agree with, enough narcissism that it's causing other people problems. 15%. That's my guess. Somewhere between 15 and 20. I say certain parts of LA, 20, certain industries.

Right, right, right.

But I would say on average, somewhere around 15. And that's all types of narcissism, too. Which means 85% of people aren't, which is good.

That's good. Yeah. And there's what, four different types of narcissism?

I'd say probably closer to six, but we can go for.

Yeah, what are the. What are the.

So for? I would say grandiose, which is a traditional, arrogant, pretentious, charming, charismatic, you know, kind of shiny narcissist. That's your kind of prototype of the narcissist. There's the vulnerable narcissist. This is probably, to me, the most compelling form of narcissism, because this is where you see the sullenness, the petulance, the passive aggression, the chronic victimhood, the social anxiety, the failure to launch. These are people who live in fantasies of the great things they're going to do, but they never do them.

Wow.

The grandiose people actually often do get them done. They will talk the big game and they'll kind of do the big game.

So the vulnerable doesn't mean they're actually intimate and vulnerable with You.

No, no, no.

It means that they themselves are vulnerable, but they don't actually take action.

Correct.

Keep telling everyone I'm going to do this project or this thing.

And you know why I couldn't? Because that guy didn't give me the money. And that guy was scammed me and that, you know, everyone takes advantage of me and that person stole my idea. That's. That's that.

The vulnerable.

Okay, the vulnerable. Okay, then there's the malignant. Now to me, the malignant narcissist is the most severe form of narcissism. And that's when we talk about stuff like the dark tetrad. And the dark tetrad is composed of narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism, the willingness to take advantage of other people, and sadism. And I also believe paranoia sits in there too. Right. So in malignant narcissism, we're talking about people who are more coercive, who are more menacing or more isolating. This feels a little bit more like psychopathy, but it's still narcissism that's much more severe. Okay, then we have the communal narcissists.

Communal, communal.

And these are the folks who get. So all narcissistic folks need validation. The. The communal narcissistic folks are interesting because they get their validation by being perceived as saviors, rescuers, and do gooders like.

Cult leaders or more.

That's a severe. So a cult leader would be a communal malignant narcissist. That would be. So these are like cocktails, right? These are like you move every. You put it all together. So at the extreme, a communal malignant narcissist cult leader. But some communal narcissist could be a mother who does all the activities and the PTA and is the. Is the. Helps the little league and raises the money and goes to the galas and goes home and screams at her kids and is horrible and abuses her partner.

But on the surface, it looks like.

She thinks she's a saint amongst us. It's the person who walks around and everyone thinks they're a humanitarian. And people are like, no, no, no. I worked for their nonprofit and like they. We were literally a hellscape, right?

When you look behind the curtain, you see bingo.

So it's. That's the communal narcissist. So there they get validation by being. By the sense of, look what a good person they are. They're rescuing puppies and they're. They're doing this thing and they're raising all this money and they're so good.

But behind the scenes they're not.

Not. So it's not saying people do nice things, are communal narcissists. It's that, that they continue to have the lack of empathy, entitlement, all that other stuff.

So it's like you can, you know, because I'm like, okay, well, you know, I want to, I want to build a community and serve people. So how do you build a community? You've got a big audience. Like, how do we build communities without that becoming a thing? Is it just because if you're not consistent with service all around you and your relationships, then you're more So I.

Mean, are you being mean to other people? So, like, if I was public facing.

You look like the best thing ever, but behind the scenes.

Exactly. So you're mean to your partner, you're mean to your family, you're mean to your people who work.

You're inconsistent.

You're. Well, you're, you're consistent. You're consistently mean to the people who are behind the curtain. You're consistently sort of putting on a show in front of the curtain.

Yeah, but you're not consistent on both ways.

No, no.

And that's service mindset. Okay.

No communal. And then there's the self righteous narcissist. And the self righteous narcissist is judgmental, moralistic, rigid. They're often funky with money. They will. Like, they will. This would be a kind of person who has so much money and someone in their family has a hardship. They, they had a job loss and then their kid needs, you know, needs medical care. And they'll say, well, I didn't create this situation, so I guess you'll have to figure it out.

We have no heart.

Like this is. It feels like no heart. But there's also this really rigid, judgmental. And they judge people from the sense of, well, look at all I built. I guess I must have worked hard. They'll never account for their luck, right? Or sometimes their absence of bad luck, that kind of thing. They will say, if they say dinner's at 6 and you show up at 6:30 because your kid got sick, they'll say, I'm sorry, we already ate. So it's very, it feels very cold, Rigid, cold, moralistic, miserly, obsessive. These are people who are often workaholics and with little care for how it would affect anyone. Like there's workaholics out there who check in on other people. Like, I'm going to make time for you, sure. Or once. And we're going to do, we're taking a vacation when this is done, whatever. And they're communicating and people are aware, okay, they're doing this so we could buy the house or whatever.

So is it possible to be self righteous and not be a narcissist?

I don't think you can ever be self righteous and healthy because I think if you're self righteous you're like, I'm better than you.

Ah, gotcha right?

So you'll even see self righteous narcissism in some of these kinds of exercise zealots who are like, I wake up at 4am and then I milk my goat and I make a smoothie and then I do a thousand thousand crunches and run 10 million miles and then I work and then I journal and then I this and I sleep at 8 o' clock and I'm like what are you talking about? Like is there no other human being in your life? Like how do you deal with a crying sister, I daughter go to hell and I drink more goat milk. You know, I mean it's that, that can be self like. And the reason I'm in shape and I'm going to live to be 179 years old because I do all this and you don't, you lazy, awful person. That's self righteous.

Lacking compassion, lacking understanding, it's lack of awareness of others.

So that self righteousness is sort of where the lack of empathy sits, right? So I don't think you can be self. I don't think there's good self righteousness. I don't think all self righteous people are narcissistic. But many people said to me that self righteous narcissism is really what happened in their family of origin. It was a parent. So there would almost be this unrealistic expectation that the child would adhere to rigid obsessive rules like don't touch this, don't do this, don't sit there, eat like this. And so the kid never got to be a kid.

Okay, Number six.

And number six would be more of a neglectful narcissist. So these are the people who, they will not. They view everyone as object. So coffee cup, whatever. And they, and they just neglect them until they need them.

They just discard them or they just don't give them attention or energy or.

They don't attune, they don't have to give them attention. They don't attune to them. They don't, they, when a person around them is struggling, they won't care that.

It'S it's, it's a lack of empathy.

It's a lack of empathy, but it's a lack of like, for example, a malignant or a grandiose narcissist might actually get mad at someone like, oh my gosh, like, why do you keep talking to me? And people in relationships with neglectful narcissists will say, I'll take it because at least that person was listening. But people in these relationships will literally feel like they're losing their minds because the person with them is literally not noticing them unless they need something from wow.

So they're giving the cold shoulder. They don't speak to them for days. Whatever, whatever.

They just don't notice or they don't care. They won't know. Like, you might say, like, I have the biggest presentation of the year next week. They won't even ask.

Wow. It's all about them.

It's all about them, but in this weird way. But. And. And they don't even take notice of other people. So it is a people I've known clients in this experience, and they'll say it's as though I didn't exist. But then when I had the piece of information or something they needed, I existed. So you feel like a really neglected personal assistant.

Oh my gosh. Now, have you seen any research on if men are more narcissistic than women?

So it depends on the type of narcissism. Malignant and grandiose. Definitely more men than women. Vulnerable narcissists. A dead heat, really.

What about just in general, are women more narcissistic than men or is it.

I think in general, we're at a.

Time and a social media and, you know, the patient of everything and the filter occasion constantly showing yourself. A lot of men are doing that, but it seems to be more women are doing that because they're getting validated on social media.

Correct. So the question becomes, then what we have to be careful is if a person's posting a lot to social media, getting the likes, influencer, all that. Can't assume that every influencer is a narcissist. Right. So I'd have to talk to them and say, are all influencers narcissistic? No, put them in front of me and I want to see what kind of human being they are. Let me spend a couple of days with you. I'll tell you then if they're narcissistic or not. I definitely think a narcissistic person would be a better influencer because they'd be able to do the job better because of what it requires, if that makes sense. Right. Because it's very performative. It's very. How do I get the most validation? It's. It's. It. That's the outcome variable. So they're going to be stronger. Just like a strong person would be better at loading trucks. I would not be good at that job. I could do it, but it'd be really slow. Sure. It's the same thing with a really nice person's like, oh, I. This is why I'm so bad at book promotion. I'm like, I feel bad asking people to spend money. They're like, no, no, it's a good book. It's okay to ask them. But, like, I'm just not. I'm not good at that. So I just wouldn't. I'm saying some people are really good at that because that narcissistic quality. That's why narcissistic people are great salespeople, and that's why they're so successful. In fact, that's why they're overrepresented in CEO ranks, because CEOs often come up through the sales kind of model. Right. So the. But the. It is. I still think at this point in history, Louis, it is more men than women for a couple of reasons. I think part of it is how men and boys are socialized around emotion. They are taught emotion is bad, emotion is ridiculous, emotion is weak, emotion is vulnerable. In 2024, I recently saw. There was. I was in a Target or store or something like that, and I was watching a mother interact with her son, and the son was fussing or he'd fallen on the floor or something, and she's like, stop it. Boys don't cry. Stop it. I was like, I almost started crying in the store because I'm thinking, if this is what I'm seeing in the story this poor boy is hearing all day, his emotions are not okay, and he's weak. And I still think boys are told to toughen up, that they're, you know, girls will cry after a soccer game. My girls cried after their soccer games. Right. They're allowed to cry, and we're fine with it, and we comfort them. But if a boy does that, they, they. They're. They might have to face the. The humiliation with their peers. They might have to face anger from a parent. And so I think boys and men are still not. I think we've come a long way, don't get me wrong, but we've got a ways to go. And because of that that emotion's gotta go somewhere. And I think that can often become a core wound that can show up as narcissistic defenses. So I think women are allowed to do that. Women also are socialized for more sociality. They're trained more, if you will not train raised more, socialized more to turn to others for support and help. And men, what is the whole colonoscopy test? Ask a 50 year old guy if you've got someone to drive you home from your colonoscopy who's not your wife. And a lot of men say I don't have someone.

Right.

And that's a bad, bad answer. So the colonoscopy test is a great example of how so. And I have like, and I know most women say I have like 15 people I could call lots of people that bring me home from my colonoscopy.

Who's to blame for creating narcissists?

I mean it's, listen, this is a social developmental phenomenon, right? They're not, no one's born narcissistic, right? If you want to use that definition if your baby's narcissistic because they are not helping and they're not paying attention to your feelings, but they're expecting you to do all this stuff for them. Right? But it's a. Babies are born, children are born. Small people have temperaments, right? You had one, I had we. And we ask your parent about your temperament was like some kids are. And if you have siblings, you might have all had different temperaments. Okay? And some kids are easy and they soothe easy and they laugh a lot and they go to sleep and you could take them anywhere and they're just lovely and that's just. And they often grow up to be lovely people. And then some kids are just tough. They're, they're just like a screwed up tantrum ready to happen from the day they're born. They don't soothe easily, they don't sleep well, they, they're, they're fussy. And then as they grow up, they might be more externalizing. They act out more, they get in more trouble in school. Those are in fact when those, they're often the kids. I'm always like, get this kid into sports because it's going to be such a great channel for this kid. Like something physical, like just something something. And so they'll get that validation. But sit in school at a desk all day, it's tough for those kids. And so they get a lot of invalidation kids more externalizing. But there can be Kids who have that kind of go, go, go temperament, but who aren't difficult. There were sweet kids, but they just want to move. Right? But that more difficult, antagonistic, it almost feels like a four year old who's gone in for a fight kind of kid. Right? Those difficult temperaments, when they come up against invalidating environments, parents who aren't available, parents who are cruel, parents who are rejecting, parents who are abusive, that combination can be a setup for that kind of narcissistic personality. Doesn't always end up that way, but that's definitely sort of a setup for it. So that then becomes, yes, there is a familial origin to this. There can be chaos. Now this is why in the same family, say there's two or three siblings, one sibling may be narcissistic, but the other siblings aren't they. And it might have been a very similar family environment for all of them.

How does that happen?

Temperament, that different temperament in that one kid. And so it could also be that the age at which a seismic event happened in the family, a divorce, a death, something like that, domestic violence, might have been abused, observed by one child but not another child, that kind of thing, those things might have been differential depending on the age gap, but this is developmental. Now the challenge is too that parents, while probably most central and significant, there are other people around the kids, they're beyond parents, there's other caregivers, there's grandparents, teachers, coaches, teachers. And so all of those people shape that in the kid. But in some cases, it's not just the neglect pathway. There's also parents who tell their kids, you're more special than anybody else. You're the most special kid. No line for you, no waiting for you.

Parents do that to their child where they tell them, you're the most special thing in the world, you deserve everything you want, I'm going to give it to you, and you deserve to cut the lines or whatever. What are you saying to that child?

You're telling them. So these kids go on one of two very different pathways. One group of them go on to become narcissistic. Well, I am more special than everyone else. So my mom told me I was who I am. And so they'll be very demanding in the classroom, they'll be demanding with peers, they'll be entitled, they'll walk through life entitled, Right. That sort of spoiled little rich kid kind of model. Right. But another group of them who may not have shared that temperament, this different group will grow up with a tremendous sense of shame. You know, that, like, I'm not more special. And so they'll feel there's this sort of inner conflict that happens, you know, like, I'm not as smart as this person, or I better perform in a way that shows that I'm special. So if things don't go the way they want, then they feel bad. And there's a new phenomenon I saw, documented that with all the sort of helicoptery over parenting we're seeing, that some of these kids who are like, okay, my parents kind of did everything for me, I kind of can't do not much for myself, you're seeing a vulnerable narcissism form in them where they're almost angry at the parents who made it too easy. So nobody, no parent wins at this, I can tell you now. And it's very painful for parents whom. I'll tell you where this is the most painful, because I always. I know how painful it is for a parent who has an adult child who's narcissistic, right? Because those parents will often sit and say, I know something in that early environment had something to do with it. And the most painful cases, it's when a person, a lovely person, was married to a narcissistic person. And that toxic environment against that kid's temperament or the narcissistic parent really indoctrinated that child. I've watched parents go through this, and it's really a living hell because it's really where you have some of your most unconditional love and it's your kid, and your kid hates you and is behaving in this terrible, manipulative, entitled, brutal way. It is absolutely awful. When I've worked, I have to say, that is the clinical population, the group of clients that's the most difficult and heartbreaking for me are the parents of adult children with narcissism because they have.

To watch their kids, and they feel partly responsible, and they're like, oh, I raised that child.

I raised that child. What did I do?

What did I do wrong to cause this?

So there's a tremendous sense of moral.

Injury, guilt and everything.

There's shame, there's guilt, there's loss, there's grief. It's terrible. It's the worst.

And you have to live with that for the rest of your life.

You live without the rest of your life.

It's almost like being married, I guess, to a narcissist.

It's even worse because there is a devotion you feel to a child in many ways, that when I. For these. For these folks, they've had to say I have to step away from my own child. Devastation. It's devastation.

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Attune to the child in an appropriate way. Not you're so great, but like, hey, sweetie, what are you doing? And listen to the answer. You know, I know you've talked. I believe you have talked. I shouldn't assume here. I've listened to enough of your episodes. But not all of them is do you ever talk to anyone, like from the. Who does a Gottman therapist or does Gottman escort?

I love those guys. Yeah, the two. The Gottmans, the Gutmans. I want to have them on. I haven't had them on yet.

Okay.

So I love their work.

Yeah. What's interesting is, you know, because Gottman's work actually doesn't always work well with narcissist, narcissistic couples. But where. What I. One thing I do like about the Gottman model is he talks a lot about attunement. Right. And I think that that model of attunement matters even more in parenting. So what Gottman talks about is that how important is, for example, in a couple, you know, and I'm sure you saw this, this whole phenomenon on TikTok play out, which was this idea of the bird test. Did you hear about the bird test on TikTok? Yeah.

Where it's like someone's paying attention or asking about the birds or. Yeah.

And you have to attune. So the whole idea is like if you're in a relationship with someone and even if they're asking you to pay attention to something as trivial, it's like, look how pretty that Bird is out the window. That was the whole TikTok trend, was that the partner would actually lift from what they're doing and do it. Oh, yeah, that's attunement, right? That many times when you're in relationships, you're saying, how do we know a relationship is healthy that you don't keep scrolling on the phone? Like, you even say. Like, you might turn to your partner and say, oh, my God, that is so cool. Give me one second. I really want to come. Pay attention to that. And maybe you have to turn off a button so you don't burn down the house. And you're like, okay, let me come see this. Right? So that's attunement. Children need that more than an adult does. So for the child to know that when they make that call to the parent, that the parent responds to me. Parent doesn't mean me. And parent drops what they're doing. But the parent will be like, hey, sweetie. Oh, cool. Give me a second. I'm gonna come right over and see. And then you do go and see.

As opposed to neglect constantly.

So, like, you know, either literally ignoring them or continuing to watch the TV or. This is the one I see all the time is the parents.

Parents in front of kids looking at their dad or their mom saying, hey, look at me. And they're just.

And the parents are on the phone. I mean, I've seen parents walking their kid in a stroller, and the stroller literally has a. That allows them to be on their phone. And I'm like, no, this is such a good moment to stare at the baby. Be present and be present. So attunement. And so that the child knows that what? Number one. Number two, listen to their needs without judgment.

So if you're like, I know that they don't need this.

Okay, so. But let's say the child says, I need three new video games. Okay? It's it. Okay, let's talk about that. You got one video game, and that video game's working fine. You might want to talk to them and say, like, listen, you know, we can talk a little about how we got that video game.

Right, Right.

But my point is that you're not saying. You spoiled pizza. You know what? How dare you ask me for a video game. But that's usually not what kids are asking for. You know what? When a kid is expressing their needs, mommy, will you come, you know, read a board with me? Not even bored. It's more than that, Children. Attachment is a survival need. Right? So children are always making These plays for attention to their parents because they want to feel secure in the world. The more consistently you meet that, frankly, the less they ask for it. Because now they feel secure in the world. So not even that they're bored. It's sometimes that they. The love of a small child for their parent is. It's their world. It is their world.

How do you not over coddle them so that they are unable to survive in the world?

Because if they're securely attached, they will go free. They don't always want to be with you, right? So it might be like, hey, mom, you want to play Chutes and Ladders? Absolutely. Set it up. But again, I say this as a woman who is a working mother, okay? And I was a single working mother, so there was. I was working multiple jobs when I had young kids. And so it sometimes be like, set it up. I need to grade one more paper. And then we're doing some shoots and ladders, right?

Sure, sure.

Give me 20 minutes, right? Not even like 10, 15. And so I'm like, and here I come, right? But even still, my parents will say, My parents. Even still, sometimes my kids will say, you know, it was hard. You were often looking at that screen, working. We know you were working, but it still hurt. So I know that I certainly didn't get that right. But I would say never shame their needs. So when. Even when they say, like, it could even be little things like, could we go to the park, could we take a walk, we throw a ball, right? That's what a kid wants. How many men I've heard say, all I wanted was a to throw a baseball at me. That's it. And it was never about the baseball. It's never about what throwing a ball is, Right? It's the ultimate attunement, right? You're going back and forth at some.

You have to pay attention.

You have to pay attention. And so that's what throwing a ball is. And so it's being available to your children. Understanding. And like I said, if we get it right, 80% of the time, they'll figure out the other 20, that's another one. And number three, empathy. Empathy, empathy, empathy. Model it, live it, show it. And that means not just like, you're only. It's not just empathy for their feelings. It's that they're saying you have empathy to their other parent or to a family member, animals. Or to an animal or to the person who comes in and delivered something. And you say, thank you. And you make eye contact, grocery store, everywhere. Because your Child is a sponge. And they see that empathy and the other place to do it. Something I do remember doing with my kid. Kids, if you're listening, I did do this with you, by the way. We would read a story, a book, and then afterwards I'd say, so how do you think the bear felt? Like that bear was really sad. Why do you think a bear was sad? Well, the other bears were kind of weren't sharing with him. So take the book. Same with a TV show. So you'd have watched a TV show.

Reflection.

How do you. It's beyond reflection. It's like lifting out the empathy. Like, how do you think that character, person. You can do that well into adolescence when the movie stops, how'd you feel? How did that movie leave you feeling? And the amount of conversation. I don't care if it's a Star Wars, Marvel universe, interesting martial arts. You sit there and say, how did you feel about that? Some of the most powerful conversations I've had with my children to this day have been after we watched a film. Some of the most intimate conversations have come out of after we watched a film because it becomes a catalyst. Right. That's cool. And so from early on, when we were watching whatever, Sesame street, something or other, and, you know, I remember, you know, my daughter, like, getting upset at someone's being mean to Elmo. And I'm like, are you worried about Elmo? She's like. And, you know, she'd have the best. Yes. And I'm like, I understand that. That's so kind of you to be worried about Elmo. We have to grasp. Encouraging that empathy, empathy, vulnerability, tears. And then, you know, I would say other things is do stuff with them. Crafts, baking, building, whatever.

Activities. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got a few more questions for you. But your book is going to inspire a lot of people. It's not you. Identifying and healing from narcissistic people. Something we talked about before we started was this idea of how do we forgive someone who's been narcissistically abusive towards us? Specifically, how do we forgive our parents or our parents? How do we forgive someone? We've been in a relationship for 10, 20, 30 years. Maybe they had the children with us. Whatever it might be, how do we forgive someone who's hurt us so badly? As a narcissist, Maybe we don't.

Maybe we don't. I have to tell you that something that's very important to me is that no one ever feels that they have to forgive someone for hijacking their soul. Because maybe there is no forgiveness for that. The pressure to forgive has led some people to feel guilty their whole lives. Prematurely forgive. There's a really interesting body of literature out there that suggests that if we forgive someone who re perpetrates it significantly harms the well being of the forgiver. So all of our research, forgive, you'll feel better. Forgive, you'll free yourself. Not so much. Because not everyone leaves these relationships. Some people continue to have contact with the family members. They continue to stay in the relationship. They may not have a choice. Not everyone can leave. This isn't as simple as you're narcissistic. I'm leaving this relationship. It's not how it works. Most of the time it's. I've got this really toxic parent and I still have to interact with them. I have this really toxic ex partner and we still have to raise kids together. I have a toxic marriage and I'm staying in it. Right. And so, and these are people who have, who have broken people down to their core. Left them feeling like they're not enough. Left them feeling that they, they were worthless people. Left them not knowing who they were anymore. Left them doubting reality. Is that forgivable? I'm not so sure. And so I will always tell everyone I work with, this is a personal decision. It is not right to forgive. It is not right to not forgive. It is not wrong to forgive. It is not wrong to not forgive. You have to do what makes you whole. If you look at the definition of forgiveness in the dictionary, it says it is to. It's to cease. To cease to feel resentment. Let it go and cease to feel resentment. And I ask him, do you not feel resentment? Resentful? I think I feel resentment. You didn't forgive them if you still feel resentful as hell. So resentment does not push forward healing. I think that it's one more place where people are forced to be inauthentic. You, some people will say, and I'll, I'll be frank with you, Louis, I've had, I have a probably I can think of a half a dozen people, narcissistic people in my life. I am now no contact with some I still have contact with. I don't forgive them. I will never forgive them.

Really?

Never.

Even if you never speak to them again?

I don't speak to them again. I will never forgive them what they did to me. Because what they, they, they, it changed my view on myself. I spent years crawling out from under that rubble. I still doubt myself. I still don't Feel safe in the world. They took away my safety. How the hell do you forgive that? I don't. And I. I sleep fine at night, I guess.

As long as you feel at peace, right?

I feel totally at peace.

Well, that's good.

Because what bothers me is I know they're out there doing this to other people.

Yeah.

How do you forgive?

Frustrating. That's frustrating. I guess the thing would be, how do we find peace even if we don't forgive?

I think people who don't forgive definitely feel peace. Okay. I think people who don't feel peace are the people who forgive and keep getting harmed. Other people who forgive and didn't weren't ready to forgive. Healing from narcissistic abuse is individuating, becoming autonomous, and ultimately rising into your authentic self. That's what it is. And your authentic self may not forgive, and that's okay.

Wow. If you don't forgive, do you feel like you can truly heal?

Yes. 100%. 100%. Because not forgiving is an acknowledgement. Right. I have talked to people who have. Their children were turned against them. How do you forget that? I have talked to people where their narcissistic partner put their kids in harm's way. How do you forgive that? I have talked to people who have watched their life savings get squandered by an. How do you forgive that? How do you forgive these things? And those are just practical. I mean, children is emotional, but, like, some of them are practical. But I actually think the worst part is that this is somebody who left you feeling not enough. Like there was something wrong with you when you were bringing the best of yourself forward. I have a problem with that. And I, I. And I tell folks, some people get there, you know, some people will say, I was 10 years out, I fell in love with someone. I learned more about myself. I recognized that they were the one who were the one. They were the ones who were carrying all the wounds. And I did forgive them. But many people will say I was not able to forgive until I went no contact.

Yeah, you had a lot of time to heal and space and not be.

Harmed by that, they said. Some people say I forgave after they died, you know, so they didn't hear it. But I think that we have this big pressure of forgiving everything.

You don't have to forgive them, like say it to them, but more to yourself internally.

Yeah, Right. But I. In the cases I'm talking about these people, I don't forgive. I really, really don't. It was wrong. It was wrong. And I know they keep doing wrong, and they. And it harms me because, like, it changed my insides. And while I can take responsibility for my insides, why that wasn't okay. And I'm very, very clear on this with survivors. That's why that section of the book is called the Treachery of Forgiveness.

The treachery of Forgiveness.

I mean, anyone wants to hate on me for it, I'm like, bring it. Because I would say, talk to a survivor. Talk to. And I hope there's survivors listening to this who say, thank you for giving me that permission. Some people will say, look, I got to 85. I've worked with older survivors, and someone will. And some folks have been, for example, through system, like family systems, they'll say, never. I will. I've heard the range of it, and it's a. Yeah, and I'll tell you. And some people listen. Some people will say things that might seem mild to other people. Like, you can't forgive that. I said, if they can't forgive that, then they can't forgive that. Accept that. You know, and these are not petty people. They really aren't. And they're not. And the criticism I've heard people get when they say they don't forgive is like, you're petty. You're the one with all the anger. You're the one with all the hate in your heart. I'm like, no, they're not. No, they're not. That this is. It's a very personal decision. But I think because we view it as a one size fits all, and I think that then what happens is people can then allow their process. In fact, healing is easier when you know, you don't have to forgive, because forgiveness is about the other person. Everyone's like, nate, forgiveness is about yourself. No, it's not. Because you know what a narcissistic person does with forgiveness or like, let me get back in there, get out of jail free card. I guess I can.

Nothing I did was wrong. Yeah.

Or nothing I did was wrong. Because forgiveness works, Louis, beautifully. I'm sure you've been forgiven at times in your life. I've been forgiven in times in my life, and I've forgiven many people. And when that forgiveness was met by that person forever committing to a change.

A behavioral change, then it's the most.

Beautiful human process because we recognize that we're all flawed. But it has to be met with a change. Imagine someone, right? It's accountability. You forgive someone for cheating on you, and they cheat on you again. How do you think that feels for a person, it's worse than betrayal because it's. Now it's betrayal in the face of this divine offering you gave. Like, I forgave you.

And then you did it again.

And you did this after you promised you wouldn't. So it's like it's a multiplied betrayal.

There's so much in this book that I want people to get. It's not you Identifying and healing from narcissistic people. Again, there's so many more things we could talk about today, but I want people to dive into the book to get this information. You've done years of research, decades of research, I'm assuming now at this point, and one of the leaders on narcissism in the world. You work with clients weekly, you speak about it. Your YouTube channel is massive. You have a big podcast, and now this book. It's not you. So if you are someone who is struggling in a relationship, get this book and learn more tools about how to create specific boundaries if you can't get out of the relationship, how to effectively take care of yourself when in harm, how to make sure you're setting yourself up for safety if you're unable to leave the relationship, things like that. You talk about things like that in here. And so much more. If you know someone who keeps coming to you for advice and is struggling in a relationship and you think maybe this might be a narcissistic person or have tendencies and you could help your friend with tools, get them this book to have tools to support them on their suffering relationship journey and anyone else you can think of that might need this book. It's not you Identifying and healing from narcissistic people. Dr. Ramani, is there anything else we can do to serve you today besides making sure to follow you on social media, YouTube, getting the book, how else can we be of service?

So again, belief, I'm gonna say in a macro, when people don't shame people, when people say, I think I might be in a relationship with someone narcissistic, like, don't shame them immediately, because that's what a lot of people get. Oh, everyone's saying that on TikTok. You don't know if that's the right word because people who are suffering with this are suffering. If a friend says to you, this might be happening in my life, instead of judging them or shaming them, just say what's going on in the relationship? Like, let's talk it out. So just. I think we can all be a listening ear to someone for a moment and sometimes that makes all the difference in the world. To get this work out into the world though, so more people hear it, go to my website drwahmany.com please oh please buy the book. People who want to do a deeper dive in healing though we have a monthly healing program people can join anytime. So those of you are going through this and say I, I want and it would be beautifully because it's going to parallel like the book becomes a beautiful manual. But we've been going for gosh a year and a half now so we're going strong. Beautiful.

Where can they go for that community?

Go to my website and then you can find the link for it and join us and try it out for a month.

What's the community call?

It's just our healing from narcissistic abuse. It's simple. And you go to it and we meet every month, workshop every month, a Q and A every month.

That's big.

Fantastic Community platform three journal prompts a week guided meditation every month. And so it's, it is an amazing community. I have to tell you I've. I've. Part of this book is dedicated to that community because they have been so remarkable and I've seen amazing things happen and the support they give each other because we, we Moderate that platform 12 times a day so no one can get in there and do harm. I take it very seriously. So come join us there if you want to do again the deeper dive into healing above and beyond this. Read the book, talk about it, go to our social media, go to our YouTube channel. We have new content every single day and so there's lots of places to find it.

Beautiful. That's beautiful. Get the book. I asked you before about your three truths and your definition of greatness. I'm curious, I'm going to ask you a different question. To end if you could go to the last day for you many years away, live as long as you want to live. But you could share only one piece of advice to your younger self, what would that piece of advice be? If you could look yourself metaphorically in the face and speak to your 15, 20, 25 year old self before you know all the pain, challenges and all the service that you got into, what piece of advice would you give?

Give life a chance. Because I think I often rushed trying to hit benchmarks. I gotta, gotta do this on this schedule and this on this schedule and if I don't it'll be too late and all of that. And so I would really say give life a chance in all my rushing, I think I sometimes did things too quick because I was so afraid the opportunity wouldn't come again. And so, you know, listen, Louis, I look back at, I'm a lot older than you. And so the beauty of the getting old is so great. It's so great. I'm probably the only woman in the world who says that, but it's so great. And what's so great about it is it's like living in this beautiful data driven world where you have all the evidence now. You're like, okay, this theory has now been upheld, or I've now talked to enough people and now, and you're starting to lose people and you're watching your friends lose their parents and so you're. Or your friends are getting sick sometimes and you're getting this different sort of view on life. But I just, first of all, now when I. David Kessler put it beautifully, is like when I. We were talking to each other on a birthday, I'm like, he taught me like, I just got another birthday. Like, this is so. Everyone's like, oh, don't talk to me about it. I'm like, talk to me about it. I just got another birthday. Like, I am so happy. So there is a. I now feel a usefulness in me. I don't feel so hemmed in by like, I got to do this and I got to get this and I got to get married and I got to have the kids and I got. I'm like, this is so fun. I feel like I'm a 58 year old woman trapped in like a 29 year old entrepreneurs. No, 20. I mean, yes, I'm trapped in that. I'm a 29 year old entrepreneur trapped in a 58 year old woman's body. And so I do need a little bit more sleep and probably have to go to the bathroom more than they do. But I, I love getting older. I mean, I, you know, talk to me when the hip starts going and everything is actually has started going. I'm like a car where you're like, do we trade this in for parts or do we like keep fixing it? But I have to say that in line with that of give life a chance for the first time, I am giving life a chance. Like, interesting opportunities come up. I'm like, let's do it. My team's like, are you sure? That feels like a risk. I'm like, at this age, is anything a risk? I'm not that it's like I'm 90, but like, again, go for it. Yeah, exactly. I just feel as though and even then, I mean, I was talking to Lisa Bilyeux of Common of a friend of both of ours. She interviewed someone who's 103, just wrote a book. And I looked at Lisa and I said, I want to be 103, write a book. You know, Judith Herman, she was 82 and she wrote that. I mean, these are, I see the power of, of that wisdom. And I again, I love getting older. And like, nobody critiques you for staying home on Saturday. I'm like, that's where old people are supposed to be at home. Like, yeah, that's right. That's where I need to be. So I just put a blanket on my knees like I'm, I'm going to be so good at 90. Like I'm going to be the best 90 you've ever seen, Rocket. So I love it and I feel like every day is that I now I'm actually allowing myself to be excited about opportunities because I'm no longer living to what other people want for me. And so I think I'm sort of living in my humanist heaven right now.

That's cool. Well, I appreciate you for your service. I appreciate you for your time.

Thank you so much.

Here's to living life fully.

Thank you Louis and thank you for having me. I love seeing you as a friend. I'm so grateful to have this conversation.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness+channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you if no one has told you lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great. Building a portfolio with Fidelity Basket Portfolios is kind of like making a sandwich. It's as simple as picking your stocks and ETFs, sort of like your meats and other topics and managing it as one big juicy investment. Now that's pretty good. Learn more@fidelity.com baskets Investing involves risks, including risk of loss. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC Member NYSE SIPC.

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